Domestic Violence, Mental Health and the Church, Safe Churches, Sexual Abuse/Assault and Churches, Women and the Church

Would your church be able to help someone in the midst of a crisis? How equipped are they?

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Before we get into today’s article, we’ve passed an important milestone here. Today, I noticed in my Facebook’s “On This Day” feature, that it is the 4th year anniversary date of the judge’s decision on the defamation lawsuit brought on by my former pastor, Chuck O’Neal of Beaverton Grace Bible Church (BGBC) vs. me and 4 others. Our attorney filed an anti-SLAPP counter suit which meant that O’Neal and BGBC had to prove that our case met the legal definition of defamation. It did not. Not even one phrase that I used (or anyone else used) met even the first tier of the defamation definition (that we had intentionally lied). In order Chuck O’Neal to have won, he had to prove that we knowingly lied about him, AND, we lied with the intent to harm. Judge Fun dismissed the entire case.

When I think back on four years, the amount of information I have learned is remarkable. So much of that has been because of you. Thank you. God has restored what the locust has eaten. Through my pain and now the information I’ve learned along the way, SSB has been a safe and a growing place for me and for others. Yea God.

Here’s the note that appeared on my timeline 4 years ago by a friend:

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Chuck O'Neal, Beaverton Grace Bible Church, spiritual abuse, defamation lawsuit, spiritual bullies

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Would your church be able to help someone in the midst of a crisis? How equipped are they?

In February,  I got involved in a situation in which a mom of many children discovered that her husband was sexually abusing their children. The world as she knew it had stopped. Everything. Not only did she need to deal with her own emotions and grief, and care for her children, but she also had to make plans for her family’s future. This was quite an undertaking and I’m sure it will take months of adjustment trying to find their new normal.

This situation was local for me, so it gave me the opportunity to see what help is available to people in this type of crisis.

A while ago, I went a choral concert which was held at a local church. When I went into the ladies restroom, I noticed this on the wall:

 

image

 

It occurred to me that we don’t have anything like that posted in our ladies’ restroom. What a perfect place to post something on domestic violence – a place where a woman’s abuser won’t see her getting this helpful information.

But, then, in the main hallway, I found many more resources.  Check this out:

 

Part of the behind the scenes ministry work at SSB is what I call “triage.” People will contact me privately with immediate needs. I listen to them and see how I can support them so that not only their immediate need is met, but there is a plan for future needs to be met. Kathi, by the way, has been so helpful with this.

A few times, I have been able to shoot Kathi a message while I’m on the phone or messaging with someone in a crisis. Kathi has then been able look up resources in that person’s area so I can give them immediate resources. Having someone who cares and can give resources is so important in a crisis.

What I have come to realize, through hearing these stories, is that many  – and perhaps most – churches are ill-equipped to handle a crisis.

This church I visited is capable of sending a woman in a crisis to local organizations so she can get the immediate help she needs. Notice they are referring OUT of the church – referring to those who are trained to deal with these types of issues. That’s important.

As it turns out, the woman I mentioned above now attends my church (You can read an update on her situation here, or feel free to contact me if you would like to help Grace). The first church she went to for help did not give her much assistance. Additionally, there was very little follow-up care. This is a case which will require long-term care. I am hoping my own church can do better. I’ve never been active in my own church in the same capacity that I help people who reach out to me here at the blog.  I hope the tools I have learned here can benefit people at my own church.

I know a situation of domestic violence at BGBC. Allegedly, my former pastor did not allow a battered wife to attend support group meetings for survivors of domestic violence. He told her that she must meet with him at church. But he never met with her because it meant he was alone with her. She, too, did not get the help she needed as far as counseling. She also did not get the financial and transportation help she needed to get back on her feet. She was abandoned spiritually, emotionally, and physically.

We have willing and able bodies at my church, but in speaking with my pastor after church on Sunday, there are no real plans in place in the event that another mom in a crisis comes to the church needing help. I’m going to try to work on this as my August project for my church, along with another project for the blog that Kathi and another SSB elf has been working on related to domestic violence. (I will fill you in on that soon.)

So, I’m very curious. I’d like to get an idea of what a typical church looks like when it comes to helping those in the midst of a crisis. Can you give me an idea of what you’ve seen in your local churches?

The following are the types of questions I’m interested in hearing about. I want to know how well (or not well) local churches are able to meet the needs of people in crises. Any response along the following lines would be helpful.

 

If you are a regular church attender, does your church have a plan to help people in a crisis?

If a mother and children came to your church’s office needing food, money, lodging, would your church be able to meet those needs?

Do you have someone at your church who knows what is available in the community and can help her as she connects with agencies who can give her ongoing financial, medial, mental health, or housing support?

Do you have someone designated to make meals for people in need, someone designated to oversee financial assistance, childcare, or ongoing support (each area might require a different person or a group of people).

Does your church refer out to licensed therapists?

How would your church handle a domestic violence situation?

Also, if you have personal experience with a church and how they met your needs in a crisis, I’d love to hear your story, too.  You can post in the comments or e-mail me at spiritualsb@gmail.com.  If you have a story, I’d like to know the kind of crisis and how the church assisted you. Is there anything they did that you did not like?  Is there something that could have been done better?

The more feedback I get on this post, the more information I will be able to share with my pastor, and thus, be a better help for those in a crisis, so thank you in advance for your participation. ~ja

 

 

 

236 thoughts on “Would your church be able to help someone in the midst of a crisis? How equipped are they?”

  1. “The NT doesn’t allow us to hold the view you express here.”

    That would be YOUR understanding of the pericope does not allow for it. But I do believe you have the right to understand it that way. And God allows that because He is not managing sock puppets but wants us to seek truth and understanding. That means a lot of junk is allowed. And it is another reason a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit for guidance is so important. We stop telling people what they are allowed to believe and what mere humans they must obey for spiritual truth.

    Like

  2. “The NT doesn’t allow us to hold the view you express here.”

    I thought that would get your attention. 🙂

    Like

  3. KAS

    You end your comment @ AUGUST 17, 2016 @ 6:21 AM…

    “If you think the church is wholly egalitarian
    and there is no need for elders,
    then the instruction for the sick person
    to ‘call the elders of the church’ is redundant.”

    You do know in James 5:14-16 KJV…
    When these elders or the sick – the sick were healed. Yes?

    Are you saying this is another Qualification to be an elder? 🙂

    When an elder prays for the sick – the sick get well? 😉

    If you do call an elder to pray – and you do NOT get well…
    ”to ‘call the elders of the church’ is redundant.”

    James 5:14,15, KJV
    Is any sick among you?
    let him call for the elders of the church;
    and let them pray over him,
    anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
    And the prayer of faith
    shall save the sick, (save = Gr. sozo = heal, make whole, save.)
    and the Lord shall raise him up…

    What about today’s elders who do NOT believe in healing? Cessationists?

    How can they pray the prayer of faith? If they do NOT believe?

    xxxxxxxxx

    But, Jesus said, ALL who believe can pray for the sick.

    Mark 16:17-18, KJV.
    And these signs*** shall follow them **That Believe;
    In my name shall they cast out devils;
    they shall speak with new tongues;
    They shall take up serpents;
    and if they drink any deadly thing,
    it shall not hurt them;
    they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    So, do WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, only call the elders? When sick?
    Or should WE, His Ekklesia, Call those who believe? When sick?

    I recommend calling those who believe. 😉
    To pray the Prayer of Faith.

    KAS – Maybe you’re correct…
    ”to ‘call the elders of the church’ is redundant?”

    Like

  4. There are elders in Scripture. I don’t see elder”ship” there though. It is a matter of what one reads into the words.

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  5. Bridget, I have elders living next door.

    The word elders is an adjective meaning an older person. It is not a religious leader title.

    It’s important we ‘get this’ and also understand that there is only ONE pastor/shepherd (Poimen) in the New Testament.

    Search for yourselves. Christianity has thousands of self-titled pastors commanding salaries. They are hirelings.

    Jesus was very clear.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. “And it is another reason a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit for guidance is so important”.

    This. Is. It.

    If you don’t have the above then you are not in Club Christ.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. KAS,

    “or that they have rights and can minister and no-one is going to get in their way”

    Do women have no rights? Can we not serve (minister)?

    Regarding calling elders to pray for the sick.

    The church is not a building, religious club or social meeting place. It’s a people.

    The elders are aged people. They don’t need name tags saying “Elder Bill”.

    The elders do not come from a place called a church.

    What happens when a person is sick?

    Do not the godly older believers pray for them? (These would be the elders)

    Whatever picture you have in your head of an eldership board, please delete.

    Google images “old people” and then there you have your elders.

    Thank you

    Like

  8. A Amos – I don’t have an opinion on all of this that I want to dicuss, and will hide behind Fred Butler in a comment on his blog in 2012 on the subject of elders:

    Amos, I’m done talking about this. Just searching around the internet, there are a good number of blogs where you’ve trollishly cut-n-paste similar comments over and over on this one pet issue since at least 2009. I get it, you don’t like authority. You’re an antinomian. You’ve chosen to be your own man out there in left field by yourself. You and Jesus worshiping together in your apartment or where ever. That’s your prerogative I guess.

    He called you to repentance, whereas I wouldn’t want to get into any pointless arguments given the time span already, as already indicated. Could end up being worse than predestination and freewill!

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  9. Salty – I very nearly agree with you. The only real difference is I think you want this to be too informal, whereas I think the relationship is a bit more clear cut and specific than just younger Christians with older Christians. There are Christians who have specific sets of gifts like teaching, and who need to be respected and recognised.

    The waters have been muddied by institutional “pastors” who really are hirelings. Or who started out well and got derailed by fame and fortune.

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  10. You seem to be looking at this solely from a human point of view: there are those who misuse authority or exaggerate it, so you concentrate only on them.

    Those people are human.

    Elders are meant to be older believers of character. Women too. Not 20somethings who went to seminary.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. Hi Julie Anne

    Fred Butler – Yikes… A name out of the past…

    I’m sure KAS has NO idea of the damage Fred Butler **The Bully* did.
    That your husband had to scold him like a little child.
    And how Fred did apologise, kinda.

    We sure had good time watching Fred run around in circles.
    I think he finally banned me.

    If I remember correctly Fred could NOT, would NOT…
    Answer some simple questions.

    Just like KAS, who can NOT, Will NOT, answer some simple questions.

    Birds of a feather…
    xxxxxxxxxxx

    KAS – for your own protection…
    Do NOT “hide behind Fred Butler”

    Fred Butler is full of Hot Air…
    And a lot of Strange B. S. escapes from the wrong end. 🙂

    Behind Fred Butler is NOT a safe position. 🙂

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  12. KAS

    YUP – Turns out Fred was the one who had to repent. 😉
    He said some ugly things about our fine host Julie Anne and her family.
    He was very ugly and out of line.

    You sure picked a loser, a **Bullie,* to stand behind.
    NOT much discernment on your part. 😉

    And – Maybe you can post the address of His Article, And All the coments.
    Of where you found Freds comment calling me an antinomian…
    (YUP – when Bullies run out of arguments the name calling begins.)

    Then ALL here can see the whole conversation. 😉

    You would want folks to see the whole conversation, right KAS?
    So they can determine who needs to repent. Who the Bully is. Yes?

    I dare you…

    Nah – I double dare you… 😉

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  13. KAS – Here is my reply to Fred calling me an antinominan…

    Fred
    Sorry you feel like the converstion is over.
    FYI – I’m NOT against – Authority…
    I’m against “Abusive Authority”
    And “The Abusive Religious System” I was a part of for so long.
    I fellowship, and worship with others, who have left “The System.”
    Like many others are doing today.

    They are leaving “The Abusive Religious System” in droves.
    xxxxxxxxx

    And – I think you mis-understand – ANTINOMIAN…
    If you’re going to resort to name calling – at least get the name correct.

    Definition of ANTINOMIAN – from websters.

    1- : one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation

    2 – : one who rejects a socially established morality
    xxxxxxxxx

    As I said – 7:26 AM, AUGUST 11, 2012…

    “In my experience with – “Pastor/Elders who Abuse,”
    And – “Pastor/Elders who are addicted to “hyper-authoritarianism.”

    They often – “Say” one thing and “Do” another.”

    Mat 23:3 …but do not ye after their works: for they “say,”and “do” NOT.

    And – You write in your original post… (About pastors/elders.)
    “His immediate response to dissenters must never be
    “my way or the highway!”

    SECOND, “welcome dissent.” Be prepared to defend your position, as well as answer hostile questions and challenges graciously, fully, and with long-suffering. A pastor may have to deal with the same nit-picky, button-holing person over and over again, but dealing with hassling complainers is part of the pastor’s job. His immediate response to dissenters must never be “my way or the highway!”

    Seems to me – You are saying – It’s Fred’s way- or the highway. 😦

    Maybe you will reconsider – And – Practice what you Preach…

    “And THIRD, and most importantly, be humble.
    That would especially include receiving correction…

    When you believe the lie you start to die…
    xxxxxxxxxx

    So, KAS, did Fred follow his own advise???
    Was Fred able to recieve correction???
    xxxxxxxxxx

    KAS – where is that address so ALL here can see ALL of Fred’s comments…
    To see if Fred Butler follows his own advice…

    Or is he a hypocrite??? And a bullie?

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  14. “A Amos – I don’t have an opinion on all of this that I want to dicuss, and will hide behind Fred Butler in a comment on his blog in 2012 on the subject of elders:

    Amos, I’m done talking about this. Just searching around the internet, there are a good number of blogs where you’ve trollishly cut-n-paste similar comments over and over on this one pet issue since at least 2009. I get it, you don’t like authority. You’re an antinomian. You’ve chosen to be your own man out there in left field by yourself. You and Jesus worshiping together in your apartment or where ever. That’s your prerogative I guess.”

    Wow. 2012. Fred Butler’s blog. Wasn’t he affiliated with JD Hall? Those guys crave authority to the point of absurdity and trolling teens on twitter. Not exacctly a great example for us, KAS.

    KAS craves authority, too, as we can see in the pattern of his comments. Why not just admit it? If you didn’t, it would not be the filter from which you read scripture. We all have differing opinions on interpretation and you are free to seek authority over people where you can. We are free to warn them. I doubt many here will feel shamed or convicted by your comments.

    26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
    1 John 2

    Liked by 1 person

  15. Lydia

    Yes – that pesky anointing WE, His Sheep, received from Jesus…
    Drives those who are addicted to “hyper-authoritarianism” crazy…

    WE, His Disciples, His Ekklesia, NO longer buy into their Strange B. S.
    “as his anointing teaches you about all things.”
    “You need NO MAN teach you.” (I like the King Jimmy here.)

    I think these Bullies never received his anointing.
    And they operate under the “Annoying-ton.”

    “What are these annoying little insects?
    That are so…
    irritating, infuriating, exasperating, maddening, trying, tiresome, troublesome, bothersome, nettlesome, obnoxious, irksome, vexing…

    Yep – these guys operate under the “Annoying-ton.”

    Just a few careing words about “*Annoying,** from the Thesaurus… Oh My… 🙂

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  16. BTDT – Amos is not a troll. He’s been a regular commenter here for many years. I think you need to dial it back a bit

    Well I did say I didn’t want to get into a discussion more than once, nitpicking over terminology. Or fruitless debates about words. Even when initially there seemed to be some discussion going, I soon realised it is all one way: Amos doesn’t discuss, he won’t answer a question put to him. I don’t mind, I simply want to say nicely that I’m not getting dragged into this.

    But he kept on wanting to, and I want to save him the trouble. He’s free to state his views on this with anybody he wants to, and to express criticism, but I’m free to say no thanks if I think it is futile.

    I ‘hid’ behind Fred Butler because he was more direct. He had in good faith attempted to discuss precisely the same issues and got nowhere. A second witness that this is futile. The fact Fred said this is irrelevant, it’s what he said that matters. I happen to agree with him on this occasion that this ‘lone believer’ stance is wrong.

    That’s all there is to it, that’s the end of the matter – hint!

    Like

  17. Well I did say I didn’t want to get into a discussion more than once, nitpicking over terminology.

    Is someone forcing you to comment here? Because if you decide to share opinions that others disagree with you can expect some “discussion.” You don’t get to control that. Julie Anne allows some pretty intense debating as long as people are respectful. If you don’t want to debate then don’t. However, hiding behind a bully didn’t exactly impress anyone here.

    That’s all there is to it, that’s the end of the matter – hint!

    Are you telling me to shut up? Good luck with that. 🙂 I have found my voice, and I will not be silenced by some random stranger on a blog.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. “But he kept on wanting to, and I want to save him the trouble. He’s (Amos) free to state his views on this with anybody he wants to, and to express criticism, but I’m free to say no thanks if I think it is futile.” quote KAS

    KAS, those are loaded statements and personally, do not sit well with my soul. They sound rather condescending and pointing a finger of blame upon someone else, for the responses that you freely express here, especially towards those who do not agree with you, are your own. No one here ‘is blackmailing you’ into responding to the concerns of this post. You are making those decisions, not someone else, unless you are being held captive by a ‘superior authoritarian figure’, whoever that may be. We are all held accountable here for our speech/behavior patterns. When I was a child, I used to blame my siblings for my actions; no longer a child, but a mature believer and follower of Christ alone for my salvation, thus, I am accountable for my own actions/behavior patterns. ‘Nuff said there.

    I do appreciate the debate, however, for after coming out of an abusive church system where the authority was playing god, doing the will of their own lusts/flesh and saying it was ‘from god’, in addition to beating up God’s sheep with all of the ‘authority ammunition’ that is often defended as a way and means to salvation, I find this comment thread to be educational with regards to the faith that was freely given to His saints. Thank-you for joining us here (stated in a non-pandering way, but from my heart.) So grateful.

    To better understand you as an individual, may I ask what denominational system you belong too, as well as the titles of the leadership positions you held in your church? And also, from my experiences of being on the receiving end of constant abusive ‘rebukers,’ may I ask, are you a continuous “rebukef” in your church system, or are you one of the lower laity receiving the continuous flow of rebukes/criticisms/name calling/lies/slander/false accusations/abusive behavior patterns that stem from a false view of ‘authority?’

    In my experience living under church authority, the leadership’s households were full of rape, adultery, fornication, pornography, reviling, following false teachers/profits, drunkenness, filthy speech/dirty jokes (especially against women folk), boasting and bragging of themselves and their mighty faith in themselves/oh, oh, I mean a god, and being ‘pushers’ of following this mighty preacher man or that mighty teacher woman……..personally did not want to ‘follow’ Todd Bentley, Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen, John MacArthur, Kaye Arthur, Beth Moore, J.D. Hall, John Piper, Benny Hinn, Paula White, John Hagee, Jonathan Cahn, Al Mohler, Mike Bickle, Mark Batterson, Kenneth Copeland……..etc., etc., etc. KAS, please understand my plea here, when church leadership or any other believer for that matter, points me to other human beings that I am to follow, ie., Fred Butler (whoever that one is?), the conversation then becomes null and void, for we are now placing the authority of our LORD Jesus, the Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit to teach, exhort and rebuke, to people who are not God, but like to play god.

    Personally, don’t want to play god, but desire/want to believe and follow God, through the teachings of His Son, my Savior. Can a person be saved, a born again Christian, and not sit under authoritarian rule within a religious denomination or sit under a p’astor in a church facility made with human hands? If I am mistaken, according to the Scriptures, believers met daily, breaking bread (shared meals), encouraging one another in the faith that was once and for all, delivered to the saints.
    Those were tough times way back in Jesus’ day. If we lived in those elements, I dare say, the Christian faith would look so much different that what we see, hear, and live in these times.

    Praising our LORD for the amazing believers on this sight. Filled to overflowing with the love of our Father and the love of His saints here. May His peace be with all of us today.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. BeenThereDoneThat,

    No, please don’t silence yourself, nor A. Amos, Salty, Lea, Serving, lydia00, Daisy, Brenda R., others………

    ………begging here to all of you, for I am learning so much on Julie Anne’s site with regards to strengthening my faith in Jesus. Please keep equipping me with Scriptures, encouragement and love because many of us are desperately in need of the edification displayed here.

    Keep preachin’ it folks….no hirelings here!

    Liked by 1 person

  20. BeenThereDoneThat

    WooHoo – What a wonderful statement… The whole comment…

    But especially…

    “Are you telling me to shut up? Good luck with that. 🙂
    I have found my voice,
    and I will not be silenced by some random stranger on a blog.”

    xxxxxxxx

    When these guys can NOT answer the questions, the scriptures…
    When they are losing the debate…
    They change the topic to a personal attack…
    When that doesn’t work they try to shut you up.

    Just common procedures. 🙂

    Eph 5:11 KJV
    And have NO fellowship
    with the unfruitful works of darkness,
    but rather reprove them.

    Like

  21. BTDT Are you telling me to shut up?
    Absolutely not! I’d be too scared. 🙂

    Seriously, I didn’t want any more discussion of it, that’s what I mean by ‘the end of the matter’. I tried getting out of it (discussions over Amos’ long posts) nice and politely, but it didn’t work; so rightly or wrongly I let someone else be more blunt who has had a similar experience, so when I didn’t later respond to anything Amos says, he would know why. Nothing sinister, no telling anyone else what to do. I simply want to avoid a pointless discussion.

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  22. I simply want to avoid a pointless discussion.

    Firstly, the only way to avoid a “pointless discussion” is to not comment at all.

    Secondly, I don’t think Amos’s comments are pointless. I think you just don’t “want any more discussion of it.” And, to repeat myself, you don’t get to control that.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Katy- I’ve never had a church title, except deacon very briefly. I’ve had experience of intolerant leaderships and well-meaning ones that tend to keep you dependent on them.

    I reject authoritarianism, such as the shepherding error. I don’t want power over other people, and I don’t see that as a legitimate option in a church, it’s worldly. That does not mean I reject the instructions of the NT regarding suitable and intelligent ‘submission’ to leaders in the church. To do so is to be just as sinful as those who misuse the church for an ego trip. Both seem to be incredibly common if you go by the internet, with its risk of exaggeration; from what I have seen in a more local environment, God’s blessing conspicuous by its absence from both, although this is obviously somewhat subjective.

    I’ve seen both men in leadership who ought not to be, and members who would suck the life out of a good pastor doing his best, with a no-one tells me what to do attitude or wanting unending ‘ministry’ or attention. I’ve certainly been around those who know how to run the church better. Until they get the chance…

    Mostly though, it has been down to earth, normal church life, with its ups and downs, good times and … not so good. Anglican, Baptist, independent. Bit of a mix up. I’ve also spent time out from church. Good to get away from religion, not so healthy to get away from fellowship. The two are not identical!

    That’s about it.

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  24. BTDT – is it not rude to ignore what others post and address to you? And is it not rude to insist on trying to drag someone into a one-sided conversation they don’t want and have said they don’t want?

    If Amos thinks he is going to get me to waste huge amounts of time answering all his multitudinous points, then I am afraid he is mistaken. It’s irritating. His views have been fixed for years. Is that being clear enough? That’s what I was trying to avoid saying, but at least you now know.

    You are free to have the last word, but to avoid any more pointless discussions that I fear will only get more acrimonious (and believe me, I don’t want that), that’s my final word in all senses.

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  25. KAS

    You write @ AUGUST 19, 2016 @ 2:15 AM…

    “I soon realised it is all one way:
    Amos doesn’t discuss,
    he won’t answer a question put to him.”

    Sorry if I didn’t answer some of your questions.
    We’ve both been asking lots, and lots of questions.

    If you repeat the questions one at a time…
    I’ll do my best to answer them.

    xxxxxxxxxx

    Here are 4 questions I asked you @ AUGUST 5, 2016 @ 9:17 AM…
    After you posted something from Dan Phillips.

    “Scripture is clear: there is no such thing as
    a female pastor under Christ’s Lordship. (Dan Phillips)”

    Was wondering… In the Bible…
    1 – Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who called them self
    Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    2 – Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who called another disciple
    Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    3 – Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who had the Title
    Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    4 – Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who was Hired or Fired as a
    Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    “Scripture is clear: there is no such thing as
    a Male pastor under Christ’s Lordship. (A. Amos Love)”

    Seems the only “ONE” in the Bible with the Title Shepherd is

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
    xxxxxxxxxx

    KAS – Only 4 questions.

    If you can NOT name one of His Male Disciples…

    Than the ”ONE”short, short answer is ”NO.”

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  26. You are free to have the last word.

    Is that what we’re here for? To see who does or doesn’t have the last word? Is this all just one-upmanship to you?

    You hid behind a bully to call Amos a troll. I don’t feel sorry for you.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. KAS

    “Seriously, I didn’t want any more discussion of it, that’s what I mean by ‘the end of the matter’. I tried getting out of it (discussions over Amos’ long posts) nice and politely, but it didn’t work; so rightly or wrongly I let someone else be more blunt who has had a similar experience, so when I didn’t later respond to anything Amos says, he would know why. Nothing sinister, no telling anyone else what to do. I simply want to avoid a pointless discussion.”

    Balderdash… 😉

    “I tried getting out of it…”

    Balderdash… 😉

    “I simply want to avoid a pointless discussion.”

    Balderdash… 😉

    I always love it when I can use that word Balderdash. 🙂

    KAS – It’s amazing how much power I have over you…
    To make you continue to comment when you do NOT want to. 😉

    Fred Butler figured it out – He banned me from his site… 😉
    When he would NOT, could NOT, answer the tuff questions.

    “I tried getting out of it (discussions over Amos’ long posts)
    nice and politely, but it didn’t work;”

    Balderdash… 😉

    KAS – I have a soul lution for. – To help you to NOT comment.

    1 – Turn off your computer – problem solved.

    2 – Turn off trying to prove your agenda, and listen – problem solved.

    Most here have believed what you promote – but ALL it produced was…
    Pain, Tears, and Spiritual Abuse.

    3 – Ignore my comments – problem solved.

    Just like you Ignore the qualifications for elder/overeer. 🙂

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    THEIR shepherds have caused them to go astray,

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as sheep going astray;
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  28. Lydia

    Yes – “KAS’ slip is showing.”

    He starts to sound so sweet and winsome

    I do NOT recall if Fred was connected with J.D. Hall…
    But they both sure get ugly when challenged.

    Fred Butler does worship at the alter of Johnny Mac, his pastor.
    Fred even worked for GTY, Grace to You radio ministries.
    He has been indoctrinated by the best of the Bully boys.

    And, You know how patient J Mac, and his boys, are with disagreement. 🙂

    Like

  29. It’s the McArthur culture, Amos.. Not much different than the Piper, Driscoll, Mahaney, Mohler cultures.

    I don’t know if you picked up on KAS’ pattern of communication here but it is a very typical pattern. If we could only teach people to pick up on these red flags in these churches we could save them so much pain and trouble and point them to the real Jesus Christ who does not give a fig for their coveted hierarchies.

    Like

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