Would your church be able to help someone in the midst of a crisis? How equipped are they?

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Before we get into today’s article, we’ve passed an important milestone here. Today, I noticed in my Facebook’s “On This Day” feature, that it is the 4th year anniversary date of the judge’s decision on the defamation lawsuit brought on by my former pastor, Chuck O’Neal of Beaverton Grace Bible Church (BGBC) vs. me and 4 others. Our attorney filed an anti-SLAPP counter suit which meant that O’Neal and BGBC had to prove that our case met the legal definition of defamation. It did not. Not even one phrase that I used (or anyone else used) met even the first tier of the defamation definition (that we had intentionally lied). In order Chuck O’Neal to have won, he had to prove that we knowingly lied about him, AND, we lied with the intent to harm. Judge Fun dismissed the entire case.

When I think back on four years, the amount of information I have learned is remarkable. So much of that has been because of you. Thank you. God has restored what the locust has eaten. Through my pain and now the information I’ve learned along the way, SSB has been a safe and a growing place for me and for others. Yea God.

Here’s the note that appeared on my timeline 4 years ago by a friend:

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Chuck O'Neal, Beaverton Grace Bible Church, spiritual abuse, defamation lawsuit, spiritual bullies

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Would your church be able to help someone in the midst of a crisis? How equipped are they?

In February,  I got involved in a situation in which a mom of many children discovered that her husband was sexually abusing their children. The world as she knew it had stopped. Everything. Not only did she need to deal with her own emotions and grief, and care for her children, but she also had to make plans for her family’s future. This was quite an undertaking and I’m sure it will take months of adjustment trying to find their new normal.

This situation was local for me, so it gave me the opportunity to see what help is available to people in this type of crisis.

A while ago, I went a choral concert which was held at a local church. When I went into the ladies restroom, I noticed this on the wall:

 

image

 

It occurred to me that we don’t have anything like that posted in our ladies’ restroom. What a perfect place to post something on domestic violence – a place where a woman’s abuser won’t see her getting this helpful information.

But, then, in the main hallway, I found many more resources.  Check this out:

 

Part of the behind the scenes ministry work at SSB is what I call “triage.” People will contact me privately with immediate needs. I listen to them and see how I can support them so that not only their immediate need is met, but there is a plan for future needs to be met. Kathi, by the way, has been so helpful with this.

A few times, I have been able to shoot Kathi a message while I’m on the phone or messaging with someone in a crisis. Kathi has then been able look up resources in that person’s area so I can give them immediate resources. Having someone who cares and can give resources is so important in a crisis.

What I have come to realize, through hearing these stories, is that many  – and perhaps most – churches are ill-equipped to handle a crisis.

This church I visited is capable of sending a woman in a crisis to local organizations so she can get the immediate help she needs. Notice they are referring OUT of the church – referring to those who are trained to deal with these types of issues. That’s important.

As it turns out, the woman I mentioned above now attends my church (You can read an update on her situation here, or feel free to contact me if you would like to help Grace). The first church she went to for help did not give her much assistance. Additionally, there was very little follow-up care. This is a case which will require long-term care. I am hoping my own church can do better. I’ve never been active in my own church in the same capacity that I help people who reach out to me here at the blog.  I hope the tools I have learned here can benefit people at my own church.

I know a situation of domestic violence at BGBC. Allegedly, my former pastor did not allow a battered wife to attend support group meetings for survivors of domestic violence. He told her that she must meet with him at church. But he never met with her because it meant he was alone with her. She, too, did not get the help she needed as far as counseling. She also did not get the financial and transportation help she needed to get back on her feet. She was abandoned spiritually, emotionally, and physically.

We have willing and able bodies at my church, but in speaking with my pastor after church on Sunday, there are no real plans in place in the event that another mom in a crisis comes to the church needing help. I’m going to try to work on this as my August project for my church, along with another project for the blog that Kathi and another SSB elf has been working on related to domestic violence. (I will fill you in on that soon.)

So, I’m very curious. I’d like to get an idea of what a typical church looks like when it comes to helping those in the midst of a crisis. Can you give me an idea of what you’ve seen in your local churches?

The following are the types of questions I’m interested in hearing about. I want to know how well (or not well) local churches are able to meet the needs of people in crises. Any response along the following lines would be helpful.

 

If you are a regular church attender, does your church have a plan to help people in a crisis?

If a mother and children came to your church’s office needing food, money, lodging, would your church be able to meet those needs?

Do you have someone at your church who knows what is available in the community and can help her as she connects with agencies who can give her ongoing financial, medial, mental health, or housing support?

Do you have someone designated to make meals for people in need, someone designated to oversee financial assistance, childcare, or ongoing support (each area might require a different person or a group of people).

Does your church refer out to licensed therapists?

How would your church handle a domestic violence situation?

Also, if you have personal experience with a church and how they met your needs in a crisis, I’d love to hear your story, too.  You can post in the comments or e-mail me at spiritualsb@gmail.com.  If you have a story, I’d like to know the kind of crisis and how the church assisted you. Is there anything they did that you did not like?  Is there something that could have been done better?

The more feedback I get on this post, the more information I will be able to share with my pastor, and thus, be a better help for those in a crisis, so thank you in advance for your participation. ~ja

 

 

 

236 comments on “Would your church be able to help someone in the midst of a crisis? How equipped are they?

  1. Salty, you are in Germany?

    “.This IS the issue at the end of all this, isn’t it?”

    Yes. It IS the issue. And we must tell people! 1st John is a great resource!

    “Either God guides us individually or He does not.”

    Yes. And that can be very beautiful when a group like that comes together. Doesn’t mean that it is easy, either. But it is the great beauty of the priesthood of believer. Back in the year 2000 Al Mohler insisted on adding an “s” to the priesthood of believer in the baptist Faith and message. Only a few people caught onto the significance. You see, Mohler does not believe you can be a true believer unless you are under the authority of the leaders of a local church. (Btw, he isn’t)

    Sixteen years later after his promoting 9 Marks, Driscoll , Acts 29 and The shepherding cult apostle, CJ Mahaney….. we get the “s”. It is loud and clear. He wants us to not trust that we can be indwelt with the Holy Spirit. There are many out there who want to be your Holy Spirit. Nine Marks even refers to them as human mediators who hold the keys for us. The first mediator between God and humans was the serpent. Need I say more?

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  2. lydia00,

    Fascinating leadership, is it not? What are these men afraid of ……Jesus? Let’s just say all of us here at SSB have the pleasure of taking a cruise together and for reasons beyond our comprehension, the ship destructs and we are jettisoned into the ocean. All of us swim for shore on an abandoned island with just the clothes on our backs. And for another providential reason, one of us here at SSB happened to have a small Bible stuffed into their pockets. Now, there are no men and women holding any theological “offices” (clergy and leadership network) so to speak, just plain simple laity. And we are stranded there with only the resources available to us on the island.

    Is it possible then, that all of us would be going to hell because we are not under the leadership of a “p’astor” or a “bishop” or a “pope” or an “elder- some actually believe this is an office when it is not. As believers and followers of the Risen LORD, we cannot worship Him in spirit and truth without a college/seminary degreed pastor, reverend, minister?

    Wow! Just amazed how highly the religious hierarchy thinks of themselves…….as mediators between our Father, Who art in Heaven and us. And here my Bible says that place is reserved for only One……Jesus.

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  3. Katy, they are scared people won’t need them if they discover the Holy Spirit. It is all about power, position and yes, money in some cases. The big leaders have the young pastors hanging on their every word, buying their books, going to their conferences where they make bank off Jesus. It is a racket. I call it the Christian Industrial Complex. I used to be very involved with it. To my ‘everlasting shame. I can’t help but warn people.

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  4. Lydia, yep. I live here. 😊

    And warning believers about the ‘Christian Industrial Complex’ is pretty much a weekly sport I partake in.

    Of the extreme variety.

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  5. Salty, is there a Christian Industrial Complex in Germany? I am aware of its American variety being exported to the UK.

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  6. Lydia, this is what I’m seeing here:

    A deadness in the ‘traditional’ (no surprises here) Sunday clubs (Lutheran/Reformed/Evangelical free/Mennonite) and what is happening is that people (youth especially) are rushing over to what I would call ‘Charismatic Light Churches’.

    These are generally conservative in their doctrine (not aligned with Pent/Charo denominations) but with the rock band and light show extravaganza (this would be ‘the worship service’).

    So the flesh is drawn to the ‘hipness of the music’ and with the toned down message. Hillsong and Bethel are very popular here in non Charismatic churches.

    From the discussions I’ve had with people going to these cool clubs, there is a shallow understanding of what it means to walk with God and be guided by the Holy Spirit.

    A lot of English speakers here are gobbling up the usual ‘Christian junk’ of the Piper, MacArthur, Chan and Washer variety.

    It won’t be long before the Good News is no longer good.

    Bethel/Jesus Culture/Holy Spirit Nights are also putting on concerts here which is highly appealing to the naive believers. Their parents have no idea what any of this is about and I’m feeling like a massive watchdog on constant alert.

    It’s pretty scary to be honest.

    Not much discernment going on.

    I would love to be wrong and crazy but I think the Charismatic thing is spreading and not in a good way. Definitely something big going on here but it leaves me with chills.

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  7. Thanks for the information. It sounds similar to the shallow seeker movement here which focused on being relevant and attracting youth to entertainment not truth. Most became mega churches. As the Neo Cal resurgence wanes here, we are also seeing a rise in a quasi Calvinist charismatic shepherding cult types like the newly reimaged Mark Driscoll.

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  8. Lydia . Are you even remotely suggesting that an individual cannot have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or the indwelling Holy Spirit?

    Absolutely not!! I believe in the priesthood of all believers, and that Christ is the head of every man. Hence I do not believe there are any human mediators between man and God. Many of the blessings I have received in this life did not come through the ‘official’ church and its leadership. In fact, sometimes it didn’t believe such things were for today!

    This does not mean there is no structure within the chuch as a living body of people. I’ve seen it tried, and it doesn’t work.

    I’ve also seen the absence of blessing or its withdrawal where Christians have got into rebellion against those structures that he has revealed through the NT in both church and home.

    I do not believe the obey and submit are absolutes in the sense this verse is not everything the NT has to say about this subject.

    I’m not a leader, so when I look at the translation of Heb 13 with its obey and submit, I see what Christ want from me in relation to leaders in the church. The word leader occurs 3 times in that chapter, and towards the end we are told to greet all your leaders and all the saints. If there were no leadership, this would be redundant, you would only need to greet the saints.

    Leadership and all the other words associated with this has more to do with the overall direction of the church as a corporate body, not unwarranted interference in the members’ private lives. This latter is often where much abuse occurs, with men taking it upon themselves to be little gods.

    Members should not undermine good leaders who are doing their best – bolshy sheep can drain the very life out of them, and the shepherding error was a massive overreaction to try to correct this.

    Control-freaks on the one hand and splendid isolation on the other are not the hallmarks of NT Christianity.

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  9. Lydia,

    I don’t believe the Neo Calv/Charo groups are here yet. Maybe in big cities. I’m in a smaller town so it’s the Arminian Evangelical Free groups which are adopting the Charismatic style music and teachings.

    As English services become more common no doubt that junk will spread here too.

    KAS, you wrote:

    “This does not mean there is no structure within the church as a living body of people. I’ve seen it tried, and it doesn’t work”.

    Do you think we need to have organised religious meetings in order to exhort and encourage one another in the faith? Honest question.

    Do you think God is able to provide leaders without them self identifying as such? 😊

    Do you think that those believers who heap up teachers and are deceived by those claiming that “Jesus is the Christ” will listen to genuine guides and overseers?🤔

    Is it possible that God is guiding those sheep who hear His voice and follow Him?😊

    I don’t live in isolation just because I reject the beast that is Christendom.😏

    God is the giver of gifts.💪

    God enables His people as He sees fit.😉💨

    Leaders don’t get their gifts from attending International Leadership Colleges where it costs $10,000 for a qualification to serve.🤖

    God is able.🚀

    I fully believe that those who would heap up teachers will get just what they desire.🐷

    But those who want to be led by the True and Great Shepherd will be guided into truth.

    How good are smartphones. 💁

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  10. “I’ve also seen the absence of blessing or its withdrawal where Christians have got into rebellion against those structures that he has revealed through the NT in both church and home.”

    He did not declare a specific polity for every gathering for all time. That is the irony. And be careful about declaring a home structure. It would be rare, for example, for a single grown woman to live alone in the 1st century and not with extended family. Most women were in arranged marriages very young. One reason why “love your wife” was a radical suggestion. :o)

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  11. Salty, yes the Ev Free Church is starting to become known here as quite cultish like Shepherding cults. Hillsong is downright scary from what I have read. Like church franchises or something.

    It is fascinating to hear from people in other countries. My Brit friends tell me Neo Cal is making headway there.

    Glad you are here!

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  12. Do you think God is able to provide leaders without them self identifying as such?

    I think the body of believers recognises them – they emerge, but do not appoint themselves. If you believe in ordination at all, it ought to be no more than a recognition of something the person is already doing, and is gifted for. It is not to put them on a pedestal.

    I’m not against some training in the bible for pastors and teachers, but even this is no substitute for having the necessary gifts. Useful, but not always essential.

    The problem today is we have the church as the authentic body of believers who need to meet together, and an institutional church often made up of nominal believers (that is, unbelievers) going through the religious ceremonies and duties. The difficulty is that in practice these two overlap. There are plenty of ordained men who really are gifted, and whose churches are made up of real believers, but who are in churches where the same denomination down the road last had the gospel preached in it 100 years ago, and is now just going through the motions. Where the grandparents were the last genuine believers.

    You talk of how God guides and speaks to us. This can be individually, through our own reading of scripture, but I think also through the rest of the body (I’m a great believer in this!), and possibly here I may disagree with you, though pastors and teachers. They are intended to instruct, to guard and to correct. They are one of means of guiding and speaking. A much safer route to hearing from God than so much mysticism being touted these days!

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  13. “They are intended to instruct, to guard and to correct. They are one of means of guiding and speaking. A much safer route to hearing from God than so much mysticism being touted these days!”

    Yikes. Safer? I think not. Christendom has been rife with charlatans, tyrants and hirelings since it was institutionalized. I firmly believe people were held back. A personal relationship with the indwelling Savior was NOT what they were guiding people to.

    Had that not been the case, history might have been different as in cures for the plague sooner instead of the church teaching it was a punishment from God as one example of many.

    The historical facts are that church leaders have sought to keep people ignorant and dependent on their interpretation and rules. They are still doing it today.

    I am often struck by the parallels in Scripture. Jesus Christ reserved his anger, for the most part, toward the Religious leaders of His tribe. They were blind guides. And then we see history repeating itself.

    The only cure for this is for people to seek and know their Savior personally. I realize that is too messy for most people. And I can sense that as I read the Gospels and Acts. :o)

    What we see described in the New Testament for the body are temporal functions not static offices. Static offices bred Pharisees.

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  14. Thanks Lydia.

    KAS, it is possible that we differ because I filter the epistles through my ‘Jesus filter’.

    Christianity has an idol: the Bible.

    I don’t hold my copy of the Bible in the air and proclaim, “this is the Worrrd of God”.

    To me, Jesus is the Word.

    Paul speaks of Pastors and Teachers.

    Jesus said there is ONE Pastor/Shepherd and ONE Teacher/Instructor.

    Not “ten thousand”, not ten.

    Just one.

    We are told that God who IS Spirit will dwell in His people and guide them into truth. Jesus never once said he would set up Leaders and Teachers. He told Peter to take care of his flock. To protect them from the wolves, no doubt.

    Do you think Jesus was lying about being the ONE Pastor and Teacher?

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  15. Salty – Jesus is indeed the Word, a person and not a doctrine!

    But we get our knowledge of the Word from the ‘word of God’, the gospels and epistles. And to a lesser extent, the OT too.

    I think you are making a mistake if you set one part of the NT against another. Are the epistles of John worth less than his gospel – or Revelation?

    Acts says the Holy Spirit appoints elders, and Paul talks about the ascended Christ giving gifts. Much of what is in the epistles would not have made sense untl after the resurrection, part of the much which Jesus still had to say to his disciples.

    Doesn’t Hebrews teach us some wonderful things about Christ?

    I think some have made an idol out of their understanding of the bible; knowledge puffs up. Sometimes manifested in too much time spent intellectualising about Paul in Romans, for example.

    I don’t really think any evangelicals effectively think of the bible as the third person of the Trinity, despite the frequent criticism that they do!

    I think you are confusing the fact that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth with the various means he uses to do so.

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  16. KAS,

    I hesitate to call ‘the Bible’ the Word of God. I believe Jesus is the Word of God. Christians have turned a book into an object of worship and Jesus has been forsaken.

    Hebrews is a very rich book, I agree.

    But as I commented earlier, Jesus made it clear in Matthew 23 that his disciples are not to call men “Rabbi” or “Master” as there is only ONE.

    A quick glance at earlier verses in Matt 23 and you can see that Jesus took issue with ‘leaders’ taking titles of importance.

    As I’ve commented earlier, a quick search in BLB reveals only ONE shepherd in the NT. Jesus.

    Yes, yes I know Paul wrote this and that.

    Paul contradicts Jesus.

    Shall we ignore Jesus’ words? (Please tell me what you make of Jesus’ plain speech)

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  17. KAS, I am fully aware that the men who love the preeminence in the Sunday Religious Clubs would call me a ‘liberal’ and probably worse for daring to question parts of the Bible.

    “Prove all things, hold fast that which is good” 1 Thessalonians

    At what point in the proving process are we given a break from shaming?

    is it wrong to honestly ask the question, “what if Paul is a false prophet/apostle?”

    Is Paul beyond question?

    I don’t know if he is or isn’t.

    But asking the question is not sinful. It is being diligent.

    Jesus said, “you have One Master. Call no man a Rabbi”.

    Paul says differently.

    nothing to see here let’s pretend there’s no issue –

    ? Is this being a Berean?

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  18. KAS

    Naughty, Naughty @ AUGUST 15, 2016 @ 12:38 AM…

    You write…
    “I’ve also seen the absence of blessing or its withdrawal
    where Christians have got into rebellion
    against those structures that
    he has revealed through the NT in both church and home.”

    Hmmm? Where have I heard this before??? Rebellion???
    Anyone wantta take a guess???

    Oh Yeah! From today’s “Corrupt Religious System.”
    Oh Yeah! From pastor/elders/leaders who are ”Bullies.”
    Who must be right – And refuse to submit one to another. Eph 5:21.

    This sounds like “Spiritual Abuse.”

    Trying to Put fear on folks, saying, “God will withdraw his blessing.”
    When WE, His sheep, His Disciples, do NOT see it your way.

    I’m so sorry for you…,
    The God that you serve, will withdraw his blessing from you…
    Based on wheter you are ”in rebellion” or NOT, to…
    “those structures that he has revealed through the NT.”

    If that’s true, you should be afraid, very, very, afraid…
    Unless, of course, you know everything, and do everything correctly.

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    THEIR shepherds have caused them to go astray,

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as sheep going astray;
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  19. A Amos – there is little point discussing this. You cannot get away from the idea of a false religious system – and I agree with you on not submitting to that or its leaders.

    But believers can and do get into rebellion against those with oversight and responsibility who take their need to care for them very seriously. Not every pastor is a false shepherd.

    In the home, husbands who won’t be considerate to and love their wives find God stops answering prayer. Wives who refuse to acknowledge their husband as ‘head’ find the same thing until they do. That kind of thing.

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  20. “But we get our knowledge of the Word from the ‘word of God’, the gospels and epistles.”

    From my research on this, the scripture is usually referred to as scripture or ‘as it is written….’

    “I think you are making a mistake if you set one part of the NT against another. Are the epistles of John worth less than his gospel – or Revelation?”

    I think you are projecting. She mentioned a “Jesus” filter which seems to be imperative or we do have Paul contradicting Jesus Christ and even John.

    “Acts says the Holy Spirit appoints elders, and Paul talks about the ascended Christ giving gifts. Much of what is in the epistles would not have made sense untl after the resurrection, part of the much which Jesus still had to say to his disciples.”

    Chapter and verse on Acts, please. (Interesting the Holy Spirit used casting lots to appoint Matthias. :o)

    “Doesn’t Hebrews teach us some wonderful things about Christ?”

    Yes, Jesus Christ is the full representation of God. I wish more Reformed folks would take that to heart.

    “I don’t really think any evangelicals effectively think of the bible as the third person of the Trinity, despite the frequent criticism that they do!”

    They most certainly do and it has reached to ridiculous proportions. They effectively shut down the Holy Spirit. Scripture is an aid. We are blessed to have it. Many did not or were not allowed to read it due to illiteracy or church state rules. A priest or church official had to interpret for them, often with lies, that propped up the reigning authorities. Yet, I would not presume that these peasants could not have the Holy Spirit and truth because they had no access to scripture. It was more likely in spite of than because of religious leaders.

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  21. Wives who refuse to acknowledge their husband as ‘head’ find the same thing until they do.

    Where does it say in the bible that wives who do not ‘acknowledge their husband as head’ have their prayer go unanswered? Because I seem to have missed it.

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  22. Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God Acts 20 : 28.

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  23. Salty

    Amen…
    “I don’t live in isolation just because I reject the beast that is Christendom.”

    But, woundn’t the proper spelling be, “Christen-dumb?” 😉

    xxxxxxxxx

    Amen…
    “But those who want to be led
    by the True and Great Shepherd will be guided into truth.”

    John 6:45 KJV
    It is written in the prophets,
    And they shall be ALL taught of God.

    John 14:26 KJV
    But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
    whom the Father will send in my name,
    he (the Holy Ghost) shall teach you all things…

    Deuteronomy 4:36 KJV
    Out of heaven he made thee to hear His voice,
    that He might instruct thee:

    Psalms 32:8 KJV
    I will instruct thee and teach thee
    in the way which thou shalt go:
    I will guide thee with mine eye.

    John 16:13 KJV
    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
    he will guide you into ALL truth…

    1 John 2:20 KJV
    Ye have an unction from the Holy One,
    and YE (WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Kings and Priests.)
    know all things.

    *unction = anointing – the inaugural ceremony for priests
    *know = perceive, discern, discover.

    1 John 2:26 KJV
    These things have I written unto you
    concerning them that seduce you.
    27 But the anointing
    which ye have received of him abideth in you,
    and ye need NOT that ANY MAN teach you:
    but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things…

    Yes Salty

    Jesus is able… 😉

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  24. Thanks. I was trying to remember what you were referring to and it is . You did read onto to verses 29-30, right? :o)

    Ok, so anyone with a title of elder was appointed by the Holy Spirit? That is exactly what is being taught out there in many churches. This is a perfect example of taking a description and making it a prescriptIon or law. Even Paul knew better.

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  25. “Where does it say in the bible that wives who do not ‘acknowledge their husband as head’ have their prayer go unanswered? Because I seem to have missed it”

    The comp Talmud which they keep rewriting or adding to? : o)

    The problem goes back to their refusal to accept that Kephale does not denote authority. Their entire house of cards collapses if kephale does not mean authority. There were certainly very clear Greek word for authority that could have been used instead but we’re not except in 1 Corin 7 concerning marriage. Hee Hee.

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  26. Lea – Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman as the weaker sex, since you are joint heirs of the grace of life, in order that your prayers may not be hindered. 1 Pet 3.

    This is addressed too husbands, and their disobedience to this will hinder their prayer – either they will not be able to pray (guilty conscience perhaps) or more likely God will not listen to them.

    I don’t see why on the same principle the wife who refuses to ‘submit’ as detailed earlier won’t have the same experience. Peter goes on to say For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. When we are not righteous, then answered prayer dries up. Doesn’t mean we are not Christians or may not be blessed in other ways.

    I’ve come across 4 testimonies in recent times where women have tried to get round the ‘husband is the head of the wife’ teaching Paul sets out, and God has not blessed them until they have, even very unwillingly, acknowledged this. Then he did abundantly (in one case still waiting). I think this is an illustration.

    I think the 1 Pet verses on this explain what is going on here, although I agree the husband is the specific focus. I hadn’t really noticed this verse before, nor the quotation from the Psalm although I must have read it often enough over the years.

    I think a similar principle sometimes applies for specific kinds of prayer that require the attention of the leaders of the church (under whatever name for them is used).

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  27. And – KAS

    Have you considered the ANT?

    The ANT is small and insignificant – Or is it?

    Proverbs 6:6-8 KJV
    6 – Go to the ant, thou sluggard;
    consider her ways, and be wise:
    7 – Which having NO guide, overseer, or ruler,
    8 – Provideth her meat in the summer,
    and gathereth her food in the harvest.

    Guide – 07101 qatsiyn
    KJV – ruler 4, prince 4, captain 3, guide 1.
    Thayers – chief, ruler, commander, dictator, ruler (of one in authority)

    Overseer – 07860 shoter {sho-tare’}
    KJV – officers 23, ruler 1, overseer 1.
    Thayers – official, officer.

    Ruler – 04910 mashal {maw-shal’}
    KJV – rule 38, ruler 19, reign 8, dominion 7, governor 4.
    Thayers – to rule, have dominion, reign, cause to rule, exercise dominion.

    xxxxxxxxxx

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    If not now? – When?

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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  28. This is addressed too husbands, and their disobedience to this will hinder their prayer – either they will not be able to pray (guilty conscience perhaps) or more likely God will not listen to them.

    “If you abuse your wife, God’ll stop answering your prayers!” Yeah, that’ll show ‘im!

    I’ve got a better idea: How ’bout sending him to jail?

    Even better idea: How ’bout we ditch the whole dumb idea of enforcing an unnatural and unnecessary hierarchy between two adults, and let love and common sense rule?

    I don’t see why on the same principle the wife who refuses to ‘submit’ as detailed earlier won’t have the same experience.

    And comps accuse people who don’t agree with gender comp of “going beyond what is written”, or seeing in the Bible only what we want to see. Ironic, that.

    I’ve come across 4 testimonies in recent times where women have tried to get round the ‘husband is the head of the wife’ teaching Paul sets out, and God has not blessed them until they have, even very unwillingly, acknowledged this. Then he did abundantly (in one case still waiting). I think this is an illustration.

    You mean, an illustration with no names or details, couched in hopelessly vague terms, based on 4 anecdotes which none of us can verify or corroborate?

    Not too impressive, I’m afraid.

    You see, KAS, this is a major reason why I’m skeptical that gender comp teachers or churches can provide adequate protection for women and children in a domestic crisis. The mindset you describe above is probably what kept Dr. Ruth Tucker in a nightmare of a marriage for so long. She kept assuming that her husband was abusive because God was “withholding blessing”, and that because she wasn’t “submissive enough”. So she persevered and kept following the interpretations of fools like Grudem and Strachan and Eggerichs, trusting that eventually God would hear her prayers and bless her. And what she really needed to do was escape, and leave that chauvinistic nonsense behind her.

    Maybe that article on “Diary of an Autodidact” is right… there’s no way that a complementarian group or church possibly can issue a proper statement denouncing spousal abuse.

    Like

  29. And comps accuse people who don’t agree with gender comp of “going beyond what is written”, or seeing in the Bible only what we want to see. Ironic, that.

    Right?

    This part obviously applies to wives too, but that ‘submit to one another’ thing is right out.

    These interpretations always seem to fall one way. Mysterious.

    Like

  30. KAS

    You write @ AUGUST 15, 2016 @ 8:28 AM…

    “Not every pastor is a false shepherd.”

    Well, in the Bible…
    NOT one of His Disciples called themself pastor.
    Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.

    NOT one of His Disciples took the “Title/Postion” pastor.
    Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.

    NOT one of His Disciples were Hired or Fired, as a pastor.
    Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.

    If the “Title/Postion” pastor, Or leader. Or reverend…
    Does NOT exist, in the Bible, for one of His Disciples…

    And, someone takes the “Title/Postion” pastor, And leader. And reverend.
    And, they call them self pastor, And leader. And reverend.

    Are they teaching from the pulpit, and by example???

    What is In The Bible?

    If they teach their “Title/Postion” pastor/leader/reverend is Biblical?
    And that “Title/Postion” Does NOT exist in the Bible?
    For one of His Disciples??? That is False Teaching. Yes???

    So, yes, every pastor is a false shepherd”
    Who teaches their “Title,” pastor/leader/reverend, is Biblical.

    xxxxxxxxxx

    The only ONE in the Bible

    Referred to as, or with the “title,” – Shepherd – Leader – Reverend – IS

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  31. KAS

    In my experience…
    With the “Title/Position” of Today’s pastor/leader/reverend.

    “Titles” become “Idols” ………. “Idols” of the heart – Ezek14:1-11 KJV
    “Pastors” become “Masters”….A big No, No. Mat 23:10 KJV, Mat 6:24 KJV
    “Leaders” become “Deceivers”..Isa 3:12 KJV, Isa 9:16 KJV, Mat 15:14 KJV

    xxxxxx

    Job 32:21-22 KJV
    Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
    neither let me give “Flattering Titles” unto man.
    For I know not to give “FlatteringTitles;”
    in so doing my maker would soon take me away.

    Like

  32. “I’ve come across 4 testimonies in recent times where women have tried to get round the ‘husband is the head of the wife’ teaching Paul sets out, and God has not blessed them until they have, even very unwillingly, acknowledged this. Then he did abundantly (in one case still waiting). I think this is an illustration.”

    An illustration of what? I don’t even know what you consider a “blessing”. This reminds me of the typical comp teaching one heard all the time that if the wife would just submit more, pray harder….. the husband would stop beating her. She will be blessed with no beatings!

    There is even a stranger aspect to what you wrote. The wife can “unwillingly” acknowledge that the husband is her “head” and she will get something good? A big house? A healthy baby? Is this another version of the prosperity doctrine? Or works? Or sorcery? Weird!

    This is like telling a woman who has cancer that if she just acknowledges to God that her husband is her head she will be cured.

    You have gone off the deep end on this one.

    Like

  33. KAS

    “I’ve also seen the absence of blessing or its withdrawal
    where so-called pastor/leader/reverends have got into rebellion
    against those structures that he (Jesus) has revealed through the NT”

    Structure – dictionary
    the arrangement of and relations between
    the parts or elements of something complex.

    So, yes, every pastor is a false shepherd”
    Who is busy teaching pew-peons to Obey and Submit

    But, “Ignore” and “Twist”
    These every day responsibilities of ALL His Disciples…

    Do you know any pastor/leaders who teach and practice these?

    1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
    2 – Lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
    3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
    4 – Submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
    5 – Prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
    6 – By love “Serve one another?” Gal 5:13 KJV
    7 – Laying down their lives for the brethren? 1 John 3:16 KJV
    8 – NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their own glory? Jn 7:18 KJV
    9 – NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43. KJV
    10 – NOT giving themselves “Flattering Titles?” Job 32:21-22 KJV

    11 – Being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
    11 – Humility – a modest, or low estimate of ones own importance.

    So, Yes – every pastor is a false shepherd”
    Who “Ignore” and “Twist” these every day responsibilities.

    In my experience, the number of “pastors,” Who actually teach, and practice these 11 – Who teach, and practice, “Submitting one to another” – Who teach, and practice, NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their own glory. – Who teach, and practice, NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles. – Who are “Clothed with humility” haveing “a modest or low estimate of one’s own importance,”

    Is Quite Small… 😉

    Like

  34. KAS said, “Wives who refuse to acknowledge their husbands as ‘head’ (Find that God stops answering prayer as referred to in the previous statement” find the same thing until they do.”

    Dear KAS, where do you find this in our Holy Scriptures and who exactly has bewitched you? I do not consider my husband ‘the head’ of me nor my relationship with my LORD, only Jesus is my Head, my Cornerstone. My husband in not my ruler nor is he the mediator between my Father, Who art in Heaven, nor myself. To place another human being above another in a rulership type of scenario with regards to our saving faith is anti-Christ, for we are placing human beings in a place that belongs only to Him. I love and respect my husband, but he is not in charge of my salvation, nor is the owner of it, only Christ. We are called to submit one unto another as Christ commands, and no, He has not removed His blessings from me because we are not in a strict authority, submissive type of relationship.

    Oh, my past abusive church has defined many of us ‘rebellious’ and having ‘jezebel spirits’ because we CHOOSE not to let them medal (busybodies) in our lives nor coerce us into following them (wicked leadership loves to tell you how to live your lives using Christianese language disguised as Scriptures, but without the teachings in context as lived by Christ as our example). And yet, they that preach and teach so called Biblical truth DO NOT live it out themselves; alas “A double minded man (or woman) is unstable in all their ways,” per Proverbs.

    This child of God, has actually been blessed more after leaving a spiritually, emotionally, and mentally abusive church system, where in the natural, it becomes a full time job just in keeping up with the wicked mind games, false accusations, and praising l’eadership who tries to destroy those who are actually serving Christ…..most church people are threatened by those who actually exhibit the gifts of God, the Holy Spirit, diligently seeking to kill that which is good and for the Glory of our LORD.

    Church leadership teaches these lies, because without an audience and adoration of them thereof, they become nobodies just like the rest of us. True, godly leadership never seeks a name for themselves and always, always, always point people to Jesus in total submissive servantship.

    Like

  35. Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman as the weaker sex, since you are joint heirs of the grace of life, in order that your prayers may not be hindered. 1 Pet 3.

    Interesingly, the NIV says to ‘treat them with respect’ here. Reading the passage, it seem the part about your prayers not being hindered applies to husbands – I do not see it applying to wives.

    Then it says “8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.”

    That would take care of a lot of problems. The one anothers are WAY more powerful than the specific prescriptions. Maybe we should focus on those for a while. I think the husband/wife stuff has gotten enough play, and it doesn’t apply to half of us anyway.

    Like

  36. I’ve come across 4 testimonies in recent times where women have tried to get round the ‘husband is the head of the wife’ teaching Paul sets out, and God has not blessed them until they have, even very unwillingly, acknowledged this. Then he did abundantly (in one case still waiting). I think this is an illustration.

    And yet in regards to Karen Hinkley’s abuse you wrote:

    I was aware of the Karen Hinkley story, but would be wary of commenting on third party internet information – which does not mean there is nothing to see here, move on, but does mean I have learned to be cautious, particularly separating fact from comment/opinion.

    Are you as equally “cautious” about “separating fact from comment/opinion” in regards to “4 testimonies in recent times where women have tried to get round the ‘husband is the head of the wife’ teaching” as you were in the “Karen Hinkley story?”

    Psssssst. KAS, your bias is showing.

    Like

  37. KAS, I can see your concern for brethren receiving oversight from godly elders.

    I can testify that in my life there are many believers who are at all stages of maturity and from different groups in Christendom.

    I do not go to any religious meetings and yet there are godly elders in my life who are available for counsel and who would speak up if they saw us acting up.

    There is nothing more I can do to enable these ‘elders’ access to my life to provide such oversight, short of signing a ten page ‘membership form’ stating that I understand I am a minion who is under the authority of ‘the pastor’ or ‘eldership’.

    There is nothing further that I need to do to enable God’s people to ‘minister’ in my life. I’m here and I’m open.

    I just don’t have to go to some 2 million dollar facility to enable access to these elders.

    I don’t need some formal agreement with these elders either. They don’t call themselves elders nor do I let them think they’re above me. They ARE elders.

    They are old people who love Christ and are living it out BY EXAMPLE.

    And who can we thank for this?

    You quoted the verse in Acts.

    The Holy Spirit.

    AKA—> God.

    Oh yes, He is able. 💪

    Like

  38. BeenThereDoneThat – yes, I am every bit a cautious about testimony as anything else, and invite you to be the same! The bible is the standard of faith: testimony can shed light on it or illustrate how it works in real life. I have varying degrees of trust in what I have heard, but see no reason not to believe it true.

    One case which I am not going to elaborate on is my own personal observation of a blogger, and the effect rebellion (I don’t use that word lightly) against certain biblical doctrines has had. This set off the train of thougth about God not answering prayer that both egalitarians and complementarians need to take seriously.

    Like

  39. My husband would not know what the words Egalitarian and Complementarian mean, as he isn’t a reader of ‘God books’. He is a believer in Jesus Christ and he is a good man.

    We have been married many years and he cooks, cleans and changes diapers. We don’t have defined ‘gender roles’. I breastfeed the babies because he can’t do that 😉😏 but besides this unique task we are much the same.

    We help each other. He is not a lazy man.

    God hears my prayers just fine. I can’t talk about hubby’s prayers because that is between him and the Lord.

    Rest assured, I am yet to jump on a Mardi Gras float, support planned parenthood or donate my baby to a childless same sex couple. No slippery slope here.

    In my group of friends, it is the Complementarian men who seem to hide behind their ‘biblical doctrines’ to justify not helping their wife with the kids and housework. I have some pretty tired and unhappy Comp friends.

    I find Complementarianism quite ugly.

    It seems to create domestically useless men who have a ‘biblical right’ to not serve their tired wives in a way which would show love.

    Am I supposed to tell my husband, “dear, I know you enjoy cooking and you want to serve me by helping me shop and clean and look after the kids. But it’s not the Bible way. please just go to your 9-5 and let me struggle in my bible defined role”.

    Yeah no.

    Like

  40. KAS

    Hmmm? Prayers NOT being answered???
    Seems, wanna-be pastor/leader/reverends, suffer here the most.

    I’ll use your words @ AUGUST 15, 2016 @ 12:38 AM…

    “I’ve also seen the absence of blessing or its withdrawal
    where wanna-be pastor/leader/reverends have got into rebellion
    against those structures that he (Jesus) has revealed through the NT”

    Jesus called Him self, “The ONE Shepherd – The ONE Leader.
    And, His Disciples must have believed Jesus… Because…
    NOT one of His Disciples called them self shepherd or leader.
    xxxxxxxxxx

    And your words again @ AUGUST 15, 2016 @ 9:21 AM…

    “When we are NOT righteous, then answered prayer dries up.”

    “When we
    (wanna-be pastor/leader/reverends)

    are NOT righteous,
    (Taking “Titles” that do NOT exist in the Bible for one of His Disciples.)
    (Taking “Titles” that only exist in the Bible for “ONE” – Jesus.)

    then answered prayer dries up.”
    (The family and personal statistics for pastor/leaders are horrible.)

    Seems, wanna-be pastor/leader/reverends, suffer the most…
    With ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
    xxxxxxxxxx

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

    Liked by 1 person

  41. KAS

    Let’s look at just a few statistics, and dangers…
    For wanna-be pastor/leader/reverends, and their families…
    Who take a “Title/Position” – NOT found in the Bible.

    These stats are from a ministry called – Into Thy Word.
    Who have been researching pastors since 1989.
    http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=36562&columnid=

    1 – 80% of feel unqualified and discouraged in their role as pastor.

    Wouldn-cha-think these pastors pray for the Joy of the Lord? – BUT…
    They receive ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
    80% still feel discouraged. In their role as pastor.
    Why will God NOT answerer their prayer? Their way?

    2 – 80% of ‘ spouses wish their spouse would choose a different profession.

    Wouldn-cha-think these pastors pray for their spouse to enjoy this job?
    BUT, ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
    Why will God NOT answerer their prayer? Their way?

    3 – 80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
    …….. Many pastor’s children do not attend church now because
    …….. of what the church has done to their parents.

    Wouldn-cha-think these pastors want, and pray for, pastoral ministry
    to have a positive affect on their their families? Their children?
    BUT, ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
    Why will God NOT answerer their prayer? Their way?

    4 – 77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.

    Wouldn-cha-think these pastors want, and pray for, a good marriage?
    BUT, ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
    Why will God NOT answerer their prayer? Their way?

    5 – 70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
    6 – 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
    7 – 57% said they would leave if **they had a better place to go***
    ….including secular work.

    Wow – 57% of pastors NO longer want to be a
    Paid, Professional, Pastor, in a Pulpit, Preaching, to People, in Pews.

    Wouldn-cha-think these pastors want, and pray for, ** A Differentl Life?**
    BUT, ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
    Why will God NOT answerer their prayer? Their way?

    Could the reason pastor/leader/reverends, and families, suffer so…
    Is they have taken a Title/Position
    That does NOT exist in the Bible
    For one of His Disciples?
    xxxxxxxxxx

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

    When you live the lie… You die slowly, day by day…

    Liked by 1 person

  42. KAS

    Could the reason pastor/leader/reverends, and families, suffer so…
    Is they have assumed a Position
    Elder/Oerseer
    That they do NOT Qualify for.

    1 – For a bishop (overseer) “Must Be” Blameless.
    2 – Just.
    3 – Holy.

    1 – Blameless. Thayers – cannot be called into account, unreproveable.
    Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.

    2 – Just. Thayers – righteous, observing divine laws, innocent, faultless.

    3 – Holy. Thayers – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
    religiously observing every moral obligation.

    Why would someone take a postion they do NOT qualify for?

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

    When you live the lie…
    You die slowly, day by day…

    When you continue to live the lie…
    Your family also begins to suffer and die…

    77% of pastors admit they do NOT have a good marriage…

    Like

  43. Katy, the answer to your question is found in 1 Cor 11 and Eph 5, for example But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

    If translation issues interest you, you will know the arguments about the meaning of head in this passage, apart from where it is meant literally. From what I have read (it’s important to read all the sides on this argument) ‘head’ is about as good a word in English as possible, even if it doesn’t quite correspond to the metaphorical usages in Greek. It’s not a synonym for ‘authority’ let alone ‘ruler’, but it does have a sense of authority as it underlying meaning.

    The novel attempt to render it ‘source’, whilst making sense in some cases where it is used, creates more problems than it solves, not least in making Christ a created being – a far worse concept than anything Grudem could come up with! There are what seems to me some dodgy claims made on this score.

    Eph contains the parallels of wife submitting and husband being head, a relationship mirroring Christ as head and the church. It’s almost impossible not to see some element of authority intended here, even if that is not the whole picture. A husband is under authority himself, namely his head.

    There is no verse that expressly says a Christ is the head of a woman or wife. There is no verse that expressly says husbands are to submit to wives. Not enough attention is given to this.

    I would suggest that the blessing of God comes to wives through their husbands as their ‘head’, without denying all the other things that are true equally to both and all believers. The testimony I referred to earlier makes me think this is not too far off the mark. It’s a line of thinking I have had to mull over recently, I’ve been asking myself amongst other things why Satan attacks this so vehemently by trying to turn it into some kind of perceived curse.

    I don’t think for one second that anyone is supposed to ‘submit’ to despotic, authoritarian leadership, whether in the church or in the home. So this whole idea has nothing to do with the church you have left, which I see as being under spiritual attack on something God intended to be for our blessing.

    Like study and the making of many books, this can become wearisome to the flesh if not diluted with other aspects of Christian living!

    Like

  44. KAS, you don’t want to understand historical context because you would lose your position. Every time you comment that comes through loud and clear. Therefore you have to turn scripture verses into clobber verses for today and a rule book completely missing the larger message of love and mutualism. If you are always greeting your brothers with a Holy Kiss, then you are consistent in your interpretation of mapping without historical.

    Seems rather strange that Paul would need to tell husband to love their wives if you are reading it through a post enlightenment western filter. However in a context of arranged marriages, usually a much younger woman to an older man, who is basically a breeder, and lives in a part of the abode with the children and servants, if any, and even animals. Her job was to produce sons.

    You don’t get it. And you don’t want to because it benefits your ego.

    Like

  45. “I don’t think for one second that anyone is supposed to ‘submit’ to despotic, authoritarian leadership, whether in the church or in the home. ”

    Who gets to decide the definition of authoritarian? The one submitting? (wink)

    Like

  46. The novel attempt to render it ‘source’, whilst making sense in some cases where it is used, creates more problems than it solves, not least in making Christ a created being…

    How, exactly?

    There is no verse that expressly says a Christ is the head of a woman or wife.

    So, do you think that women do need a mediator to approach Christ? No woman — even unmarried — can have a relationship with Christ without some man as their “head” or “covering”?

    If so, it took you long enough to admit it. If not, what exactly is your point?

    I would suggest that the blessing of God comes to wives through their husbands as their ‘head’…

    Suggest it all you want, KAS. It’s still rank chauvinistic nonsense. If a woman doesn’t need a man as her mediator before marriage, she doesn’t need one after marriage. End of story.

    I’ve been asking myself amongst other things why Satan attacks this so vehemently by trying to turn it into some kind of perceived curse.

    Now, you really need to clarify this. What do you mean by Satan “attacking” this notion of “male headship”? Are you suggesting that he’s behind the work of Julie Anne and Ruth Tucker and others in exposing the evil of this foolishness? If not, then please take the time and the words to make some sense here.

    Male entitlement is not a “perceived” curse, KAS. It’s a real, actual curse. It’s been a part of human culture for a long, long time. In perpetuating it, Christendom is not being counter-cultural. It’s being backwards and abusive.

    Like

  47. I’m aware we are against ‘the world, the flesh and the devil‘. This latter aspect of spiritual warfare often gets overlooked these days.

    The attack takes various forms. One obvious one is going to extremes. A complementarian reading can lead men to an assumption of status, entitlement, authority, an ego trip. Deceived men enforcing what they see as God’s command to women (submit) and totally forgetting what he has commanded them.

    The converse is possible amongst women. They can either be deceived into thinking they should be doormats, or that they have rights and can minister and no-one is going to get in their way. They fight or negate any kind of submission tooth and nail.

    I have come to believe again the creation has a hierarchical structure. God is over all, but there are angels and demons with different ranks, believers, unbelievers, the lower animals and then plants. It is something I am still thinking through. What we can’t afford to do is to get out of order in this. This also applies to submission to elders (the real thing, not the fakes) in the church.

    There are some inequalities here, different ranks if you like, and we either make ourselves vulnerable to being led astray and/or block God’s blessing to us by rebelling against them.

    Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. The latter won’t happen without the former, submission to God. This is both direct submission of all believers personally, but also a willingness to do the other ‘submission’ requirements of both men and women regarding husbands and elders or whatever you want to call them.

    I remember a girl in the church needing deliverance (very obviously). A Spirit-filled Christian who led the bible study prayed for her. I’ve never forgotten it. Yet he then insisted on taking her to the pastor of the church for more prayer. The pastor, a lovely and caring man, had no experience of this at all, and I couldn’t see the point. My friend later explained that the pastor has the spiritual authority over the church, and had a God-given responsibility for further care. I’ve since come to see the wisdom in this, and recently circumstances have reminded me of it.

    If you think the church is wholly egalitarian and there is no need for elders, then the instruction for the sick person to ‘call the elders of the church’ is redundant.

    Like

  48. KAS, Thank-you for pointing out those Scriptures in 1 Corinthians 11 and Ephesians 5, for have studies and meditated upon those well. This may be a surprise to those who ascribe to authoritarian/rulership false doctrines, for I actually love those Scriptures as they bear witness to our Savior. When a born again believer understands that the word “head” means “source,” there is such a freedom in Christ that rulership/leadership type of souls have a difficult time understanding, and the words of our LORD, submit ye one, unto another, are ignored nor are they practiced within a meeting or two or three, or a larger assembly. Considering we are commanded also to consider others “better” than ourselves, a proper understanding of the word “head” would easily be practiced in what portrays itself as the visible church if it were taught correctly. To the disgrace of the vanity of man, submission according to God’s Holy Word is not taught according to the precepts of God (false doctrines by wolves’ in sheep’s clothing) Holy Word, but according to the doctrines of men.

    Perhaps this is one reason the “dominionist (evil and wicked) movement” is gaining speed, especially in the mysticism/charismatic/Pentecostal/experiential cults where those attending such functions are constantly seeking a sign and a wonder to validate a their faith. Or perhaps this lordship/rulership/authoritarianism is the catalyst that is leading Christians into joining hands with Islam/Sharia. Because it all strokes man’s ego, his vanity, his ‘self’ in placing ‘himself’ above and beyond God’s commands.

    Knowing that man is my ‘head,’ ‘my source,’ renders my soul at the mercy of Christ, who created me in the first place. What a miracle from our LORD, and who can boast upon fully understanding this, and not submitting to false doctrines of rulership and authority over my life and my faith alone in Jesus, the Christ, frankly, upsets the applecart of false Christianity, if I can use that term. I am free in Christ, knowing this is my heart and praising our LORD for that confirmation from other born again believers here, and the wealth of Scriptures pouring out of these precious souls.

    If we were walking the streets of the city and the paths of the outback back in Jesus’ day, and observing the interactions between people when Jesus approached them, I dare say, we would have been astonished at the Way, in which He treated women. Perhaps we would not have been able to comprehend the love He had for these creatures, let alone, speaking with them face to face, and healing them by His Power/dunamis. Do not think for a moment, the hatred and rage coming from the hearts/minds of the religious folks of Jesus’ time was hidden from our Master. It was not, Alleluia.

    Would Jesus have been called a ‘feminist’ in His culture by the false appearance of Christianity. I often wonder. Thankfully, He showed no favoritism between male and female, for both were saved.

    Like I stated in another comment thread, “I never heard of this complementarianism or egalitarianism, or a vain focus on the philosophies of rulership/leadership/authoritarianism growing up within our small, poorer than most, assembly of believers.” All of this was not an issue back then, so why now within the c’hurch? What are men of authority and power and might, really afraid of? The Gospel?

    Liked by 2 people

  49. “My friend later explained that the pastor has the spiritual authority over the church, and had a God-given responsibility for further care. I’ve since come to see the wisdom in this, and recently circumstances have reminded me of it.”

    Is that spiritual authority magically conferred at ordination or something? Jim Jones had spiritual authority over his church. He was once praised by Jimmy Carter in his spiritual early days as a pastor. How about Mark Driscoll? CJ Mahaney. Many believed what you believe about them. Spiritual Authoriy over the church.

    Thanks but I will stick with Jesus. He never fails.

    Liked by 2 people

  50. “My friend later explained that the pastor has the spiritual authority over the church, and had a God-given responsibility for further care. I’ve since come to see the wisdom in this, and recently circumstances have reminded me of it.”

    Is that spiritual authority magically conferred at ordination or something? Jim Jones had spiritual authority over his church. He was once praised by Jimmy Carter in his spiritual early days as a pastor. How about Mark Driscoll? CJ Mahaney. Many believed what you believe about them. Spiritual Authoriy over the church.

    Thanks but I will stick with Jesus. He never fails.

    Liked by 2 people

  51. The NT doesn’t allow us to hold the view you express here.

    Ordination doesn’t of itself convey anything – though it can recognise those who are ‘over us’ in the Lord.

    You seem to be looking at this solely from a human point of view: there are those who misuse authority or exaggerate it, so you concentrate only on them.

    What about those who do not do this, but do care for the flock as intended by the Holy Spirit? Countless faithful people. Those through whom God brings blessing, and correction. Isn’t this latter – admonishing – often the real reason for rejecting eldership or whatever name you care to give it? Keeping at arm’s length anyone who might say a few uncomfortable things we would rather not hear!

    There is consistent apostolic witness to this, not just Paul but Peter, James, John and Hebrews.

    It’s not just my personal salvation, the NT is more practical than that and arranges for us to be corporately ministered to. The body. It’s to our loss if we contract out of this for any length of time.

    Like

  52. “The NT doesn’t allow us to hold the view you express here.”

    That would be YOUR understanding of the pericope does not allow for it. But I do believe you have the right to understand it that way. And God allows that because He is not managing sock puppets but wants us to seek truth and understanding. That means a lot of junk is allowed. And it is another reason a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit for guidance is so important. We stop telling people what they are allowed to believe and what mere humans they must obey for spiritual truth.

    Like

  53. KAS

    You end your comment @ AUGUST 17, 2016 @ 6:21 AM…

    “If you think the church is wholly egalitarian
    and there is no need for elders,
    then the instruction for the sick person
    to ‘call the elders of the church’ is redundant.”

    You do know in James 5:14-16 KJV…
    When these elders or the sick – the sick were healed. Yes?

    Are you saying this is another Qualification to be an elder? 🙂

    When an elder prays for the sick – the sick get well? 😉

    If you do call an elder to pray – and you do NOT get well…
    ”to ‘call the elders of the church’ is redundant.”

    James 5:14,15, KJV
    Is any sick among you?
    let him call for the elders of the church;
    and let them pray over him,
    anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
    And the prayer of faith
    shall save the sick, (save = Gr. sozo = heal, make whole, save.)
    and the Lord shall raise him up…

    What about today’s elders who do NOT believe in healing? Cessationists?

    How can they pray the prayer of faith? If they do NOT believe?

    xxxxxxxxx

    But, Jesus said, ALL who believe can pray for the sick.

    Mark 16:17-18, KJV.
    And these signs*** shall follow them **That Believe;
    In my name shall they cast out devils;
    they shall speak with new tongues;
    They shall take up serpents;
    and if they drink any deadly thing,
    it shall not hurt them;
    they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

    So, do WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, only call the elders? When sick?
    Or should WE, His Ekklesia, Call those who believe? When sick?

    I recommend calling those who believe. 😉
    To pray the Prayer of Faith.

    KAS – Maybe you’re correct…
    ”to ‘call the elders of the church’ is redundant?”

    Like

  54. There are elders in Scripture. I don’t see elder”ship” there though. It is a matter of what one reads into the words.

    Like

  55. Bridget, I have elders living next door.

    The word elders is an adjective meaning an older person. It is not a religious leader title.

    It’s important we ‘get this’ and also understand that there is only ONE pastor/shepherd (Poimen) in the New Testament.

    Search for yourselves. Christianity has thousands of self-titled pastors commanding salaries. They are hirelings.

    Jesus was very clear.

    Liked by 1 person

  56. “And it is another reason a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit for guidance is so important”.

    This. Is. It.

    If you don’t have the above then you are not in Club Christ.

    Liked by 1 person

  57. KAS,

    “or that they have rights and can minister and no-one is going to get in their way”

    Do women have no rights? Can we not serve (minister)?

    Regarding calling elders to pray for the sick.

    The church is not a building, religious club or social meeting place. It’s a people.

    The elders are aged people. They don’t need name tags saying “Elder Bill”.

    The elders do not come from a place called a church.

    What happens when a person is sick?

    Do not the godly older believers pray for them? (These would be the elders)

    Whatever picture you have in your head of an eldership board, please delete.

    Google images “old people” and then there you have your elders.

    Thank you

    Like

  58. A Amos – I don’t have an opinion on all of this that I want to dicuss, and will hide behind Fred Butler in a comment on his blog in 2012 on the subject of elders:

    Amos, I’m done talking about this. Just searching around the internet, there are a good number of blogs where you’ve trollishly cut-n-paste similar comments over and over on this one pet issue since at least 2009. I get it, you don’t like authority. You’re an antinomian. You’ve chosen to be your own man out there in left field by yourself. You and Jesus worshiping together in your apartment or where ever. That’s your prerogative I guess.

    He called you to repentance, whereas I wouldn’t want to get into any pointless arguments given the time span already, as already indicated. Could end up being worse than predestination and freewill!

    Like

  59. Salty – I very nearly agree with you. The only real difference is I think you want this to be too informal, whereas I think the relationship is a bit more clear cut and specific than just younger Christians with older Christians. There are Christians who have specific sets of gifts like teaching, and who need to be respected and recognised.

    The waters have been muddied by institutional “pastors” who really are hirelings. Or who started out well and got derailed by fame and fortune.

    Like

  60. You seem to be looking at this solely from a human point of view: there are those who misuse authority or exaggerate it, so you concentrate only on them.

    Those people are human.

    Elders are meant to be older believers of character. Women too. Not 20somethings who went to seminary.

    Liked by 1 person

  61. Hi Julie Anne

    Fred Butler – Yikes… A name out of the past…

    I’m sure KAS has NO idea of the damage Fred Butler **The Bully* did.
    That your husband had to scold him like a little child.
    And how Fred did apologise, kinda.

    We sure had good time watching Fred run around in circles.
    I think he finally banned me.

    If I remember correctly Fred could NOT, would NOT…
    Answer some simple questions.

    Just like KAS, who can NOT, Will NOT, answer some simple questions.

    Birds of a feather…
    xxxxxxxxxxx

    KAS – for your own protection…
    Do NOT “hide behind Fred Butler”

    Fred Butler is full of Hot Air…
    And a lot of Strange B. S. escapes from the wrong end. 🙂

    Behind Fred Butler is NOT a safe position. 🙂

    Like

  62. KAS

    YUP – Turns out Fred was the one who had to repent. 😉
    He said some ugly things about our fine host Julie Anne and her family.
    He was very ugly and out of line.

    You sure picked a loser, a **Bullie,* to stand behind.
    NOT much discernment on your part. 😉

    And – Maybe you can post the address of His Article, And All the coments.
    Of where you found Freds comment calling me an antinomian…
    (YUP – when Bullies run out of arguments the name calling begins.)

    Then ALL here can see the whole conversation. 😉

    You would want folks to see the whole conversation, right KAS?
    So they can determine who needs to repent. Who the Bully is. Yes?

    I dare you…

    Nah – I double dare you… 😉

    Like

  63. KAS – Here is my reply to Fred calling me an antinominan…

    Fred
    Sorry you feel like the converstion is over.
    FYI – I’m NOT against – Authority…
    I’m against “Abusive Authority”
    And “The Abusive Religious System” I was a part of for so long.
    I fellowship, and worship with others, who have left “The System.”
    Like many others are doing today.

    They are leaving “The Abusive Religious System” in droves.
    xxxxxxxxx

    And – I think you mis-understand – ANTINOMIAN…
    If you’re going to resort to name calling – at least get the name correct.

    Definition of ANTINOMIAN – from websters.

    1- : one who holds that under the gospel dispensation of grace the moral law is of no use or obligation because faith alone is necessary to salvation

    2 – : one who rejects a socially established morality
    xxxxxxxxx

    As I said – 7:26 AM, AUGUST 11, 2012…

    “In my experience with – “Pastor/Elders who Abuse,”
    And – “Pastor/Elders who are addicted to “hyper-authoritarianism.”

    They often – “Say” one thing and “Do” another.”

    Mat 23:3 …but do not ye after their works: for they “say,”and “do” NOT.

    And – You write in your original post… (About pastors/elders.)
    “His immediate response to dissenters must never be
    “my way or the highway!”

    SECOND, “welcome dissent.” Be prepared to defend your position, as well as answer hostile questions and challenges graciously, fully, and with long-suffering. A pastor may have to deal with the same nit-picky, button-holing person over and over again, but dealing with hassling complainers is part of the pastor’s job. His immediate response to dissenters must never be “my way or the highway!”

    Seems to me – You are saying – It’s Fred’s way- or the highway. 😦

    Maybe you will reconsider – And – Practice what you Preach…

    “And THIRD, and most importantly, be humble.
    That would especially include receiving correction…

    When you believe the lie you start to die…
    xxxxxxxxxx

    So, KAS, did Fred follow his own advise???
    Was Fred able to recieve correction???
    xxxxxxxxxx

    KAS – where is that address so ALL here can see ALL of Fred’s comments…
    To see if Fred Butler follows his own advice…

    Or is he a hypocrite??? And a bullie?

    Like

  64. “A Amos – I don’t have an opinion on all of this that I want to dicuss, and will hide behind Fred Butler in a comment on his blog in 2012 on the subject of elders:

    Amos, I’m done talking about this. Just searching around the internet, there are a good number of blogs where you’ve trollishly cut-n-paste similar comments over and over on this one pet issue since at least 2009. I get it, you don’t like authority. You’re an antinomian. You’ve chosen to be your own man out there in left field by yourself. You and Jesus worshiping together in your apartment or where ever. That’s your prerogative I guess.”

    Wow. 2012. Fred Butler’s blog. Wasn’t he affiliated with JD Hall? Those guys crave authority to the point of absurdity and trolling teens on twitter. Not exacctly a great example for us, KAS.

    KAS craves authority, too, as we can see in the pattern of his comments. Why not just admit it? If you didn’t, it would not be the filter from which you read scripture. We all have differing opinions on interpretation and you are free to seek authority over people where you can. We are free to warn them. I doubt many here will feel shamed or convicted by your comments.

    26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
    1 John 2

    Liked by 1 person

  65. Lydia

    Yes – that pesky anointing WE, His Sheep, received from Jesus…
    Drives those who are addicted to “hyper-authoritarianism” crazy…

    WE, His Disciples, His Ekklesia, NO longer buy into their Strange B. S.
    “as his anointing teaches you about all things.”
    “You need NO MAN teach you.” (I like the King Jimmy here.)

    I think these Bullies never received his anointing.
    And they operate under the “Annoying-ton.”

    “What are these annoying little insects?
    That are so…
    irritating, infuriating, exasperating, maddening, trying, tiresome, troublesome, bothersome, nettlesome, obnoxious, irksome, vexing…

    Yep – these guys operate under the “Annoying-ton.”

    Just a few careing words about “*Annoying,** from the Thesaurus… Oh My… 🙂

    Like

  66. BTDT – Amos is not a troll. He’s been a regular commenter here for many years. I think you need to dial it back a bit

    Well I did say I didn’t want to get into a discussion more than once, nitpicking over terminology. Or fruitless debates about words. Even when initially there seemed to be some discussion going, I soon realised it is all one way: Amos doesn’t discuss, he won’t answer a question put to him. I don’t mind, I simply want to say nicely that I’m not getting dragged into this.

    But he kept on wanting to, and I want to save him the trouble. He’s free to state his views on this with anybody he wants to, and to express criticism, but I’m free to say no thanks if I think it is futile.

    I ‘hid’ behind Fred Butler because he was more direct. He had in good faith attempted to discuss precisely the same issues and got nowhere. A second witness that this is futile. The fact Fred said this is irrelevant, it’s what he said that matters. I happen to agree with him on this occasion that this ‘lone believer’ stance is wrong.

    That’s all there is to it, that’s the end of the matter – hint!

    Like

  67. Well I did say I didn’t want to get into a discussion more than once, nitpicking over terminology.

    Is someone forcing you to comment here? Because if you decide to share opinions that others disagree with you can expect some “discussion.” You don’t get to control that. Julie Anne allows some pretty intense debating as long as people are respectful. If you don’t want to debate then don’t. However, hiding behind a bully didn’t exactly impress anyone here.

    That’s all there is to it, that’s the end of the matter – hint!

    Are you telling me to shut up? Good luck with that. 🙂 I have found my voice, and I will not be silenced by some random stranger on a blog.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. “But he kept on wanting to, and I want to save him the trouble. He’s (Amos) free to state his views on this with anybody he wants to, and to express criticism, but I’m free to say no thanks if I think it is futile.” quote KAS

    KAS, those are loaded statements and personally, do not sit well with my soul. They sound rather condescending and pointing a finger of blame upon someone else, for the responses that you freely express here, especially towards those who do not agree with you, are your own. No one here ‘is blackmailing you’ into responding to the concerns of this post. You are making those decisions, not someone else, unless you are being held captive by a ‘superior authoritarian figure’, whoever that may be. We are all held accountable here for our speech/behavior patterns. When I was a child, I used to blame my siblings for my actions; no longer a child, but a mature believer and follower of Christ alone for my salvation, thus, I am accountable for my own actions/behavior patterns. ‘Nuff said there.

    I do appreciate the debate, however, for after coming out of an abusive church system where the authority was playing god, doing the will of their own lusts/flesh and saying it was ‘from god’, in addition to beating up God’s sheep with all of the ‘authority ammunition’ that is often defended as a way and means to salvation, I find this comment thread to be educational with regards to the faith that was freely given to His saints. Thank-you for joining us here (stated in a non-pandering way, but from my heart.) So grateful.

    To better understand you as an individual, may I ask what denominational system you belong too, as well as the titles of the leadership positions you held in your church? And also, from my experiences of being on the receiving end of constant abusive ‘rebukers,’ may I ask, are you a continuous “rebukef” in your church system, or are you one of the lower laity receiving the continuous flow of rebukes/criticisms/name calling/lies/slander/false accusations/abusive behavior patterns that stem from a false view of ‘authority?’

    In my experience living under church authority, the leadership’s households were full of rape, adultery, fornication, pornography, reviling, following false teachers/profits, drunkenness, filthy speech/dirty jokes (especially against women folk), boasting and bragging of themselves and their mighty faith in themselves/oh, oh, I mean a god, and being ‘pushers’ of following this mighty preacher man or that mighty teacher woman……..personally did not want to ‘follow’ Todd Bentley, Joyce Meyers, Joel Osteen, John MacArthur, Kaye Arthur, Beth Moore, J.D. Hall, John Piper, Benny Hinn, Paula White, John Hagee, Jonathan Cahn, Al Mohler, Mike Bickle, Mark Batterson, Kenneth Copeland……..etc., etc., etc. KAS, please understand my plea here, when church leadership or any other believer for that matter, points me to other human beings that I am to follow, ie., Fred Butler (whoever that one is?), the conversation then becomes null and void, for we are now placing the authority of our LORD Jesus, the Christ, and the power of the Holy Spirit to teach, exhort and rebuke, to people who are not God, but like to play god.

    Personally, don’t want to play god, but desire/want to believe and follow God, through the teachings of His Son, my Savior. Can a person be saved, a born again Christian, and not sit under authoritarian rule within a religious denomination or sit under a p’astor in a church facility made with human hands? If I am mistaken, according to the Scriptures, believers met daily, breaking bread (shared meals), encouraging one another in the faith that was once and for all, delivered to the saints.
    Those were tough times way back in Jesus’ day. If we lived in those elements, I dare say, the Christian faith would look so much different that what we see, hear, and live in these times.

    Praising our LORD for the amazing believers on this sight. Filled to overflowing with the love of our Father and the love of His saints here. May His peace be with all of us today.

    Liked by 1 person

  69. BeenThereDoneThat,

    No, please don’t silence yourself, nor A. Amos, Salty, Lea, Serving, lydia00, Daisy, Brenda R., others………

    ………begging here to all of you, for I am learning so much on Julie Anne’s site with regards to strengthening my faith in Jesus. Please keep equipping me with Scriptures, encouragement and love because many of us are desperately in need of the edification displayed here.

    Keep preachin’ it folks….no hirelings here!

    Liked by 1 person

  70. BeenThereDoneThat

    WooHoo – What a wonderful statement… The whole comment…

    But especially…

    “Are you telling me to shut up? Good luck with that. 🙂
    I have found my voice,
    and I will not be silenced by some random stranger on a blog.”

    xxxxxxxx

    When these guys can NOT answer the questions, the scriptures…
    When they are losing the debate…
    They change the topic to a personal attack…
    When that doesn’t work they try to shut you up.

    Just common procedures. 🙂

    Eph 5:11 KJV
    And have NO fellowship
    with the unfruitful works of darkness,
    but rather reprove them.

    Like

  71. BTDT Are you telling me to shut up?
    Absolutely not! I’d be too scared. 🙂

    Seriously, I didn’t want any more discussion of it, that’s what I mean by ‘the end of the matter’. I tried getting out of it (discussions over Amos’ long posts) nice and politely, but it didn’t work; so rightly or wrongly I let someone else be more blunt who has had a similar experience, so when I didn’t later respond to anything Amos says, he would know why. Nothing sinister, no telling anyone else what to do. I simply want to avoid a pointless discussion.

    Like

  72. I simply want to avoid a pointless discussion.

    Firstly, the only way to avoid a “pointless discussion” is to not comment at all.

    Secondly, I don’t think Amos’s comments are pointless. I think you just don’t “want any more discussion of it.” And, to repeat myself, you don’t get to control that.

    Liked by 1 person

  73. Katy- I’ve never had a church title, except deacon very briefly. I’ve had experience of intolerant leaderships and well-meaning ones that tend to keep you dependent on them.

    I reject authoritarianism, such as the shepherding error. I don’t want power over other people, and I don’t see that as a legitimate option in a church, it’s worldly. That does not mean I reject the instructions of the NT regarding suitable and intelligent ‘submission’ to leaders in the church. To do so is to be just as sinful as those who misuse the church for an ego trip. Both seem to be incredibly common if you go by the internet, with its risk of exaggeration; from what I have seen in a more local environment, God’s blessing conspicuous by its absence from both, although this is obviously somewhat subjective.

    I’ve seen both men in leadership who ought not to be, and members who would suck the life out of a good pastor doing his best, with a no-one tells me what to do attitude or wanting unending ‘ministry’ or attention. I’ve certainly been around those who know how to run the church better. Until they get the chance…

    Mostly though, it has been down to earth, normal church life, with its ups and downs, good times and … not so good. Anglican, Baptist, independent. Bit of a mix up. I’ve also spent time out from church. Good to get away from religion, not so healthy to get away from fellowship. The two are not identical!

    That’s about it.

    Like

  74. BTDT – is it not rude to ignore what others post and address to you? And is it not rude to insist on trying to drag someone into a one-sided conversation they don’t want and have said they don’t want?

    If Amos thinks he is going to get me to waste huge amounts of time answering all his multitudinous points, then I am afraid he is mistaken. It’s irritating. His views have been fixed for years. Is that being clear enough? That’s what I was trying to avoid saying, but at least you now know.

    You are free to have the last word, but to avoid any more pointless discussions that I fear will only get more acrimonious (and believe me, I don’t want that), that’s my final word in all senses.

    Like

  75. KAS

    You write @ AUGUST 19, 2016 @ 2:15 AM…

    “I soon realised it is all one way:
    Amos doesn’t discuss,
    he won’t answer a question put to him.”

    Sorry if I didn’t answer some of your questions.
    We’ve both been asking lots, and lots of questions.

    If you repeat the questions one at a time…
    I’ll do my best to answer them.

    xxxxxxxxxx

    Here are 4 questions I asked you @ AUGUST 5, 2016 @ 9:17 AM…
    After you posted something from Dan Phillips.

    “Scripture is clear: there is no such thing as
    a female pastor under Christ’s Lordship. (Dan Phillips)”

    Was wondering… In the Bible…
    1 – Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who called them self
    Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    2 – Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who called another disciple
    Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    3 – Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who had the Title
    Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    4 – Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who was Hired or Fired as a
    Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?

    “Scripture is clear: there is no such thing as
    a Male pastor under Christ’s Lordship. (A. Amos Love)”

    Seems the only “ONE” in the Bible with the Title Shepherd is

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
    xxxxxxxxxx

    KAS – Only 4 questions.

    If you can NOT name one of His Male Disciples…

    Than the ”ONE”short, short answer is ”NO.”

    Like

  76. You are free to have the last word.

    Is that what we’re here for? To see who does or doesn’t have the last word? Is this all just one-upmanship to you?

    You hid behind a bully to call Amos a troll. I don’t feel sorry for you.

    Liked by 1 person

  77. KAS

    “Seriously, I didn’t want any more discussion of it, that’s what I mean by ‘the end of the matter’. I tried getting out of it (discussions over Amos’ long posts) nice and politely, but it didn’t work; so rightly or wrongly I let someone else be more blunt who has had a similar experience, so when I didn’t later respond to anything Amos says, he would know why. Nothing sinister, no telling anyone else what to do. I simply want to avoid a pointless discussion.”

    Balderdash… 😉

    “I tried getting out of it…”

    Balderdash… 😉

    “I simply want to avoid a pointless discussion.”

    Balderdash… 😉

    I always love it when I can use that word Balderdash. 🙂

    KAS – It’s amazing how much power I have over you…
    To make you continue to comment when you do NOT want to. 😉

    Fred Butler figured it out – He banned me from his site… 😉
    When he would NOT, could NOT, answer the tuff questions.

    “I tried getting out of it (discussions over Amos’ long posts)
    nice and politely, but it didn’t work;”

    Balderdash… 😉

    KAS – I have a soul lution for. – To help you to NOT comment.

    1 – Turn off your computer – problem solved.

    2 – Turn off trying to prove your agenda, and listen – problem solved.

    Most here have believed what you promote – but ALL it produced was…
    Pain, Tears, and Spiritual Abuse.

    3 – Ignore my comments – problem solved.

    Just like you Ignore the qualifications for elder/overeer. 🙂

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    THEIR shepherds have caused them to go astray,

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as sheep going astray;
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  78. Lydia

    Yes – “KAS’ slip is showing.”

    He starts to sound so sweet and winsome

    I do NOT recall if Fred was connected with J.D. Hall…
    But they both sure get ugly when challenged.

    Fred Butler does worship at the alter of Johnny Mac, his pastor.
    Fred even worked for GTY, Grace to You radio ministries.
    He has been indoctrinated by the best of the Bully boys.

    And, You know how patient J Mac, and his boys, are with disagreement. 🙂

    Like

  79. It’s the McArthur culture, Amos.. Not much different than the Piper, Driscoll, Mahaney, Mohler cultures.

    I don’t know if you picked up on KAS’ pattern of communication here but it is a very typical pattern. If we could only teach people to pick up on these red flags in these churches we could save them so much pain and trouble and point them to the real Jesus Christ who does not give a fig for their coveted hierarchies.

    Like

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