Scott Brown Discusses: Jackson Brothers Alleged Sex Abuse, Brother Responds to Preaching, and Love Your Wives Webinar

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Scott Brown on the Jackson brothers sex abuse case, the gospel message, and Husbands Love Your Wives webinar

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Scott Brown, Director of the National Center for Family-Integrated Churches (NCFIC), is also a pastor of 2 of the 6 Jackson brothers who were recently arrested for allegedly sexually assaulting their younger sister for approximately 10 years (Six Homeschool Brothers Arrested for Alleged Sex Abuse against Younger Sister). This week, Brown published an article, Eric Jackson and The Power of the Gospel, regarding the Jackson sex abuse scandal and shared how Eric Jackson, the eldest Jackson and how he came to repentance.

Brown wrote about how Jackson came to discover the sin in his life and wanted to walk in the truth:

By now, you may have heard that Hope Baptist has two of her members in jail on sex offenses against their sister. The tragic family life of the Jacksons is almost overwhelming. It is a story we will never forget.

But how did this come to light? The reason this story is in the national news right now is because of the power of the gospel. Eric Jackson came to the church, responded to the preaching of the Word of God, recognized that he was a false convert, embraced the true gospel, and was born again. His new heart compelled him want to walk in the light. As a result, he confessed his sin.

Brown claims that Eric Jackson “responded to the preaching of the Word of God.”  It’s hard to say if it was the actual preaching that softened his heart.  Scripture tells us there are several ways in which God can speak to our hearts:  through people, through His Word, through the Holy Spirit, through the Words of Jesus Christ, and even through a donkey!

Then the LORD opened the mouth of the donkey, and she said to Balaam, “What have I done to you, that you have struck me these three times?” Number 22:28

Brown may have been the vessel by which God used to speak his truth to Eric Jackson, or maybe not.  We’ll never know. But we do know that pastor’s words are powerful and influencing.

That brings me to a recent mailing sent from Scott Brown’s family-integrated church organization, NCFIC.  I’ve taken a screen shot of the top of the mailing.

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Scott Brown, Patriarchy, Screen Shot 2014-05-16 at 8.55.38 AM

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This e-mail was sent out to promote a webinar: “Husbands Love Your Wives.”

At the webinar website, the top line reads:

Husbands, This is for you! Would you like to sit under the instruction of the foremost voice on family life during the Puritan era?

There are a lot of people who really like material from the Puritan era.  I’m not sure why that specific time period is so important  – even more than other times for Christians. Maybe someone can clue me in. There is one thing I like about the Puritan era – I do like virtue names (Hope, Faith, hey, I just saw Modesty as a virtue name – can you imagine? ok, enough of that.)

Back to the webinar. There is a cost involved to listen to this webinar of how husbands ought to love their wives.

But is all of that teaching really good and godly?

Scott Brown says in his bio that he is very interested in the church and family: **

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So, just what is he promoting for family?  And is it good teaching?

Brown praises Puritan author William Gouge.  He uses an excerpt from Gouge’s “classic work” (Brown’s words, not mine), Domestical Duties. Actually, if you look it up, there are a couple of variations to the title which I assume to be the same:  Domestical Duties, Of Domestical Duties, and this old spelling, Domesticall Duties, all by William Gouge. Brown states:

For years, William Gouge’s Domestical Duties has stood as the foremost Puritan treatment of Christian family life.” ~Brown

Joel R. Beeke and Scott Brown have rewritten Gouge’s works into modern language into three volumes. Here is the volume recommended in the webinar:  Building a Godly Home, Vol. 2.

But if you want to go really old school, here’s an excerpt.  (You can get the pdf of Domestical Duties at digitalpuritan.net.)  Those who are fond of Old English (Ed, I’m looking at you) will have no problems understanding:

Fifthly, I may further add as a truth, which is too manifest by experience in all places, that among all other parties of whom the Holy Ghost requireth subjection, wives for the most part are most backward (see Treatise 3, Section 4) in yielding sub- jection to their husbands. But ye wives that fear God, be careful to your duty: and though it may seem somewhat contrary to the common course and practise of wives, yet follow not a multitude to do evil (Exo 23:2). Though it be harsh to corrupt na- ture, yet beat down that corruption: yea though your husbands be backward in their duties, yet be ye forward, and strive to go before them in yours: remembering what the Lord saith (Matt 5:46,47). If you love them which love you, what singular thing do ye? Yea remembering also what the Apostle saith, (1 Tim 2:14) The woman was first in the transgression (Gen 3:16), and first had her duty given unto her, and was made for the man, and not man for the woman (1 Cor 11:9).

1. As an head is more eminent and excellent than the body, and placed above it, so is an husand [sic] to his wife.

Ok, I think you get the idea. But I’d like you to take a look at the following excerpt which was taken from the NCFIC e-mail pictured above.

Now think about this. When you are sending a mass e-mail to your subscribers, you want something that is profound, that reflects the message you want to portray, something that will draw people in and compel them to get on board, right?  This is an appeal to get you to participate in the webinar (the one that costs $$ to listen to others’ interpretation of scripture).

Look carefully at this part of the e-mail.  The first paragraph is from Brown, the 2nd is another excerpt from William Gouge’s Domestical Duties.  Brown begins:

William Gouge casts a vision of spousal love that is unparalleled compared to the other literature I have read on the husband/wife relationship. He uses such beautiful language and imagery. In a section for the webinar this week we read of the depth of a husbands [sic] love, and how she should experience it.

“A wife then beholding gentleness and amiableness in her husband’s face, beholds it as the face of God, and as in a looking glass beholds the kindness and love of his heart, and so has her heart more firmly knit to him, and is moved to respect him more.”

Brown is talking about Gouge’s beautiful language and imagery in marriage – the depth of a husband’s love and how the wife should experience it.  What kind of imagery?  Is this Biblical?  You tell me. Keep in mind this is a family-integrated church, predominantly homeschool families. I think you’ve got the picture. Ok, have at it.

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109 comments on “Scott Brown Discusses: Jackson Brothers Alleged Sex Abuse, Brother Responds to Preaching, and Love Your Wives Webinar

  1. I love the ironies. My Puritan ancestors did not believe in religious marriage, only civil marriage. They also believed that divorce should be as easily achieved as marriage, with no stigma. When those of who have half a family tree coming out of New England get so far into our genealogy, we discover that the average Puritan ancestor was married and divorced at least 3 times, if not more. Spousal abuse was strictly forbidden. All children, male and female, were equally given a public education. My Puritan ancestors were the first abolitionists, the first feminists, and the first to demand equality for women. Yes, women worked in the home – but there was no other choice, other than prostitution. The way Puritan society was arranged, if someone had the hots for someone who was married, instead of adultery, they simply divorced, with half/half visitation for the kids, and they remarried. You also find very little child abuse or incest with the Puritans. Daughters chose who they wanted to marry. Men basically did not dominate their wives – they were too outspoken. Once upon a time, I was ashamed of my Puritan ancestors, then I started researching their culture. They were very modern, invented feminism, and women were basically the equal to men.

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  2. I cannot imagine the horror this girl endured. So so sad.
    sjreidhead – would you list a resource
    re those findings? i would love to read more.

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  3. Firstly, most of these folks are trying to brand themselves (and their group) with novel ideas to make them stand out from other Christians. They’re more superior than other Christians, and they focus on minor elements of the Christian faith. You can’t market a superior product to a postmodern culture without a brand. Any good student of Vision Forum’s entrepeneurial business school can tell you that.

    “If these solutions worked for these utopias, we can make them theological innovations that will work for us today. Lets come up with a formula that worked 150 – 300 – 500 years ago from a pocket of time when ‘all was right with the world.’ All we need is a scapegoat.”

    The Federalist problem? The Anabaptist problem? The Quaker problem? The Arminian problem? The Semi-pelagian problem? The egalitarian problem? The antinomian problem? The autonomy problem? The Enlightenment problem? The Transendentalist problem? The industrialism problem? The feminist problem? The woman problem?

    Who else had such a “problem” and relied on wishful and mysterious thinking about his people and their divine past, using nationalism to advance his cause? Who venerated the kirk, kitchen, and kinder in the process, venerating the right kind of family? (Hanging curve ball for Headless Unicorn Guy or anyone who beats him to it.)

    Two other prominent sources of anachronistic solutions in this group come from Medievalism and the writings of the Confederate Presbyterians. Old Pastor Palmer is fairly extensively quoted in the FIC writings, saying that women have no agency or personality of their own once married. It’s like Adam gets to reabsorb his rib to be whole again. The right kind of woman and the right kind of man to form the right kind of family to become the panacea.

    “Lets try to create a xenophobic, self-sufficient confederacy of our own where the woman problem is the scapegoat by using fantasy anachronisms from some utopia of the past. Oh, and everyone’s dependent on the vision casting of the visionary leader. A wife has the the duty to hold it all together through servile obedience to her fantasy Uber-Adam, her very own, personal, mystical salvific man.” (That’s for you, Serge.)

    Hubby is her middle man demigod through whom she accesses Jesus. This ought to be their theme song.

    The real test of their mettle will be manifest through how they treat a young woman who goes to the pastor for help. The Jacksons were treated differently than the girls in their congregation. What happens to the quivering daughter when she pleads for help? She’s sent back to her Uber-Adam to repent and serve his vision, for she was made for man.

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  4. Good books about the Old Time Religion/Family Pew myths:

    Mark Noll’s “Scandal of the Evangelical Mind”
    Janet Fishburn’s “Confronting the Idolatry of Family” (you can find the full text online)
    Stephanie Coontz’ “The Way We Never Were”
    Steven Keillor’s “This Rebellious House”
    — and anything about Anne Hutchinson

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  5. Ask a Calvinist or someone who identifies with the Puritans just what they think of the Quakers. Yet the seat of the Union sat in Philadelphia (“Quaker City”), in the Quaker State. There was no utopia. The Puritans banished their problems to Rhode Island. The Father of the Constitution was a Federalist. The man who penned much of it was a Unitarian and an Enlightenment thinker. They don’t much like Hamilton, either.

    The Grimke Sisters? The Foxes? Lucretia Mott? The Anthonys? Amy and Isaac Post?

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  6. One of MY ancestors was the last and oldest person hanged in the Salem Witch Trials. She was a grumpy old beggar widow who was in the wrong place in the wrong century. RIP Margaret.

    Anyway, I love the children’s novel The Witch of Blackbird Pond because it explores these issues in a very fair and interesting way.

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  7. This is marketing! Marketing is all about the yenom (money spelled backwards).

    “A wife then beholding gentleness and amiableness in her husband’s face, beholds it as the face of God, and as in a looking glass beholds the kindness and love of his heart, and so has her heart more firmly knit to him, and is moved to respect him more”

    So, the husband is to be seen (beholds) as God. And as God, she is “moved” to respect him more. Really? No way!

    Since God is Holy, no sin, light, etc., no man can ever measure up. Therein lies the problem with this marketing tool. Man is placed on a pedestal here, a throne, so to speak, and I do believe that is called PRIDE. God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble.

    Yes, I’ve always like old English, ever since, as a child, I watched “Bewitched”. That was the first time that I had ever heard the word “betwixt”. That intrigued me. Then I learned of Shakespeare.

    Ed

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  8. Cindy,

    “Firstly, most of these folks are trying to brand themselves (and their group) with novel ideas to make them stand out from other Christians. They’re more superior than other Christians, and they focus on minor elements of the Christian faith. You can’t market a superior product to a postmodern culture without a brand. Any good student of Vision Forum’s entrepeneurial business school can tell you that. ”

    I agree with everything you laid out…it’s a Coke is better than Pepsi challenge, my brand x is better than your brand y!! And they all claim to read the same book…the Bible. So many brands to choose from.

    Ed

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  9. Whew! So much silliness to digest.

    First of all, the subtle spin to suggest the Jackson guy turned himself in after listening to Scott Brown. I don’t buy it for one minute. I think there is much more to the story ESPECIALLY on the heels of Doug Phillips and Browns association with that world. I think they are scared to death of the implications of their Patriarchal world crumbling so they needed something to show we are different. Now, I say that because I have seen it happen way too often in a sort of Wag the Dog mentality with these charlatans.

    So count me in as one who does not believe it came down like that. I am simply saying I am not convinced at all. I know these types. They would sell their grandmas to keep their little empires. Remember, Scott Brown has had the ear of the great Al Mohler who tried to implement FIC at SBTS and it was a huge fail. They are still toying with it using other names.

    Whenever someone used the phrase, “cast a vision’, I am outta there. I say that as a certified strategic planner for the last 18 years in companies all over the country. I do find it ironic that Scott Brown is using the language of Rick Warren and Billy Hybels from 20 years ago. That part is amusing. But that sort of thinking does not belong in the Body of Christ. We don’t need it. Sorry but I saw the havoc that sort of thinking wrecked in the seeker movement. It builds cults. (Corporations/organizations are their own kind of cults)

    Lastly, They are part of this Puritan worship culture going on today. I have no idea who Reidheads ancestors where but they sound more like those who split with the Puritans and eventually became Unitarians or Congregationalists.

    The Puritan leaders were evil. They were sin sniffing micromanaging tyrants who murdered women, Quakers or anyone else who they deemed heretics. Women who tried to alleviate labor pains were in sin and considered evil. God wanted them to suffer! Women had a horrible time. The story of Anne Hutchinson one of the more educated and wealthy of the Puritan groups was treated HORRIBLY when she was pregnant and on trail. She was banished. And we only know about her because she stood up to them and it was documented to some degree.

    Had it not been for thirdgeneration Puritans moving away from that there would never have been an American Revolution. Can you imagine Jonathon Edwards as a Founding Father? There was too much sin to sniff out.

    When I see the Puritans celebrated, I run. There is a reason the Puritan culture died out and it’s descendants attracted to Unitarianism. If you ever want to read something evil, Read John Cotton’s treatise on Indians. It is his “godly” reason it was ok to wipe the tribes out.

    If you want some insight into later puritan culture, read Jonathan Edwards’sermon: Sinners in the hands of an angry God. Crikey. You think that guy really knew Jesus Christ?

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  10. Ed found it. Look at what he said. The husband is to be seen as God. That is very dangerous. Where is she in worth or value? The wording sounds good and flowery, but it elevates the man to god-like status which is exactly what Patriarchy teaches. Remember, Eric Jackson mentioned something to Dan Horn, but was not able to reveal anything more for another 9 months until he got his father’s position. It sounds like Eric’s father follows patriarchy and Eric landed in a church where wives are to look at their husbands as if looking into the face of God. Does she have a need for God if her husband replaces God?

    This also sets up husband as mediator.

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  11. The Puritans that Reidhead describes is nothing like the Puritans that the Hyper-Calvinists and Patriarchy proponents love to idolize. Go read Richard Baxter (this author is lauded in Reconstruction circles). He says church elders should go from house to house to see which members in the home are true Believers. Sin sniffing, indeed.

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  12. “Ask a Calvinist or someone who identifies with the Puritans just what they think of the Quakers. Yet the seat of the Union sat in Philadelphia (“Quaker City”), in the Quaker State. There was no utopia. The Puritans banished their problems to Rhode Island. The Father of the Constitution was a Federalist. The man who penned much of it was a Unitarian and an Enlightenment thinker. They don’t much like Hamilton, either.

    The Grimke Sisters? The Foxes? Lucretia Mott? The Anthonys? Amy and Isaac Post?

    Thank you. In fact, one can make the case that the Puritan ideal of making a city on a hill…a New Jerusalem actually held the American Ideal back. They are NOT the forerunners. The thinking had to change. Their treatment of the Indians is where all that started as they believed if the Indians did not respond to their offers then they had God’s permission to wipe them out because they needed that land for the New Jerusalem. The banishments ended up being the tide that turned with guys like Roger Williams who believed more in a composite society–as Jesus did. You cannot be the” light of the world” when you are forcing everyone. There is no light in that situation. Only following orders or get the stock, banishment, lynched, etc. And yes, they were good at hanging Quakers..

    One thing about history is you have to read “around” it. There is so much agenda making when you read it from only those with a certain bent. That is one of my concerns with homeschooling curricula with certain groups. History is very nuanced and is often a messy collision of agendas, thinking, tyrants, rebels, etc. We must seek to read all sides if we can. Thankfully the Puritans left us enough writings to get a picture of their tyrannical behavior…in the Name of God, of course.

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  13. JA,

    The irony of the Puritans is they brought with them exactly what they hated and rebelled against in England. They were worse! They had an extreme pecking order. And to tell you the truth the husband was only a king in his castle with his wife and children if he were a Puritan leader. If not, they could come in and totally wreck your life. Like they did with Anne Hutchinson whose husband had no problem with her “home bible studies”. But the Puritan leaders wanted it stopped. She was not even teaching, she was a participant. But even that was not allowed. A home study could only be sanctioned by the leaders if at all. What one was to believe about God had to come from approved preachers in the church meeting.

    It was a constant mission of those in the community to be in the good graces of the Puritan leaders….or else.

    So they left their tyrant king in England and come here to be even worse tyrants. I think they probably followed the trajectory we see so often today. LIttle petty men who finally their own power over others without having to worry about the King and his Bishops..

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  14. JA,

    ” He says church elders should go from house to house to see which members in the home are true Believers. Sin sniffing, indeed.”

    I read that same thing on James McDonald’s Facebook https://www.facebook.com/james.mcdonald1

    It was James Pennington @May 14 7:25 A.M. stating:
    “A former pastor of mine once said it was very important for a pastor to visit with the church members in their homes. You learn a lot about someone by being in their home”

    It was under the status:
    “God established three jurisdictions, which are designed, in part, to promote holiness and to protect the weak. And God gave means to assist in this mission. Parents have the rod; civil magistrates, the sword; church elders, oh wait, the unrepentant left through the revolving door and joined the other church down the road.”

    James believes in church discipline, a church court system, etc., and maintains that those who leave thru the revolving door and goes to another church, that he has an obligation to call the other church and warn them that they are in discipline at his church. Talk about control issues.

    Ed

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  15. “James believes in church discipline, a church court system, etc., and maintains that those who leave thru the revolving door and goes to another church, that he has an obligation to call the other church and warn them that they are in discipline at his church. Talk about control issues”

    Ed, This is happening here all the time. Only “elders” can give you permission to leave and you must “leave well” and they decide what that means. If anyone thinks this of Christ, they are deluded. Which is why I beg people not to sign any membership covenant or anything when they are first in love with their church. And there are churches here now, SBC churches, who get very testy after a while if you don’t “join” their way. You are not making a commitment to the body…and so on. I tell folks to attend at least a year and see how they handle that. If you don’t join they have no control over you.

    This thinking is coming from SBTS and it’s Neo Puritan/Neo Reformation culture. This is nothing new. It was being done in Geneva in the 16th Century. The ecclesiastical magistrates came to your door to find out why you missed church and you had better have had a good reason or there was a fine or public punishment in store for you.

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  16. Lydia,

    “without having to worry about the King and his Bishops..” 

    Add a couple of knights in shining armor, and a bunch of pawns, chess anyone?

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  17. Silly Ed,

    You know that playing pointless games like chess was a sin to the Puritans. You’ve got to redeem the time through suffering somehow, every moment, to purify the soul. Shame on you for encouraging such self-indulgence! ;P

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  18. Vision casting sounds so….mystical to me. Sounds like witches casting spells. Pagans and gnostics? Pure (or should I say Impure) neo-calvinism. Run away as far and as fast as you can. These jokers elevate men to god-like status. Women don’t need God, when we have MEN to be our god. It also reeks of Reconstructionism. Instead of moving forward, they want this country to revert back hundreds of years to the time of the Puritans, idolizing that period, and whitewashing over all the harsh realities of that era.

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  19. Don’t forget the stoning, WFTT2.

    theonomyresources.blogspot.com/2011/06/biblical-stoning-barbarism-or-righteous.html

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  20. Ah yes! And the hangings and burnings. An ancestor of mine was hanged falsely as a witch during that time. The accusors later confessed to false testimonies, but the deed was already done. The magistrate gave very little compensation to the blind, diabled widower and their children who became motherless.

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  21. My ancestor I’m referring to, who was falsely accused and hanged as a witch, was Elizabeth Howe.

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  22. “Vision casting sounds so….mystical to me”

    It has no place in the Body. It is the “leader” painting a picture of what the future should look like because the group bought into the picture and strove to make that picture come to reality. Used in the format Scott Brown is using it, an “expert” will paint a picture of history for them and how it is the right way to live today. In Scott Browns case, they will have to leave out a ton of factual information and paint a picture that is not full truth. In fact, they will have to rely on written words of Puritans and not mention their actual deeds.

    Dangerous stuff. I am not a fan of vision casting for any group. It is very cultish. but it has NO place in the Body. Christ already “cast the vision” for you if we must use that terminology.

    Vision casting works very well with groups who are not critical or independent thinkers.

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  23. The Puritan church control issues remind me of 9 Marks membership requirements.

    Reconstructionism reminds me of the the treatment of Native Americans by the Puritans and the rest of the early settlers. In this case it wasn’t just the religious who felt they had a right to conquer. The idea of moving in on other people groups and taking their land was still quite prevalent worldwide at the time England was populating American. It didn’t stop when America became their own either.

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  24. Ed,

    That’s a good one.

    And with all of this discussion, all I can think of is this ditty, brought to you by the NCFIC.

    https://ncfic.org/blog/posts/morning-breakouts-preparing-a-two-year-old-for-marriage

    Morning Breakouts: Preparing a Two-Year-Old for Marriage
    Posted by The NCFIC on Oct. 29, 2010
    This morning Jonathan Sides addressed the importance of teaching our children about marriage from a very young age. It is folly to think that we can wait until our children are on the brink of marriage to communicate to them a Biblical vision of courtship and marriage. The world doesn’t wait; It begins attempting to instill an unbiblical, romanticized view of marriage in your children from their earliest years.

    Yes, teach your two year old that marriage should be really miserable to be Biblical. That will get them married off young and will get them motivated to hop on that 200 Year Plan.

    What about the travesty of waiting until your daughters (or sons) are on the brink of molestation before you talk to them about that?

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  25. “A wife then beholding gentleness and amiableness in her husband’s face, beholds it as the face of God, and as in a looking glass beholds the kindness and love of his heart, and so has her heart more firmly knit to him, and is moved to respect him more.”

    Unbelievable. This sets up the perfect pathway for abuse.

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  26. While I am happy for whatever role Scott Brown had in getting the Jackson crimes exposed I am yet appalled again at the creepy evil twisted teachings that are abusive. I got this one from Scott Brown’s marriage blog.
    “During Dan Horn’s message at a past marriage retreat, he asked a very important question of husbands: “When she married you, she gave you her life to spend. Are you spending your life wisely?”

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  27. “During Dan Horn’s message at a past marriage retreat, he asked a very important question of husbands: “When she married you, she gave you her life to spend. Are you spending your life wisely?”

    That is bone chilling and blasphemous.

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  28. Unbelievable. This sets up the perfect pathway for abuse.

    It really does, Kathi. It is shocking. It essentially says that women have no need to go to God when they have their husband who acts as God. It can also be interpreted that God gave women their husbands for that purpose. Can you imagine a power-happy husband lording that kind of garbage over his wife? How does a wife question that when it is coming from her husband AND her pastor? I mean, after all, a well-respected Puritan also said it. This must be godly teaching, right?

    They say the gospel is being taught at these churches and maybe there is a form of a decent gospel message, but there is other junk, too – – damaging, extra-Biblical heresy.

    Scott Brown in his article about Eric Jackson finding Jesus and realizing he had a false conversion sounds pretty sweet. It portrays a message that there’s something really good going on at Hope Baptist. And there might be a few good things going on there. But if husbands are taking the place of God, that is false teaching. Let’s give the Holy Spirit credit for convicting Eric’s heart. Let’s let wives seek the face of God by going directly to Him, not via their husband.

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  29. “When she married you, she gave you her life to spend. Are you spending your life wisely?”

    Ew, that’s more of that ownership thing; i.e., husband owns his wife. Scripture says both spouses are to submit to each other. It’s not one over another. This stuff is sick.

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  30. No matter how Eric Jackson was convicted, the power of God to change a human heart always amazes me and brings me to my knees.

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  31. I’m glad that Eric was convicted and turned himself in. I don’t know how much that can be attributed to the preaching of God’s Word as many church leaders like to say. I started hearing this in a former church and it came across very strange; as if God is limited to interacting with us ONLY if we sit under the “Preaching of the Word.” Very preacher centric if you ask me.

    I don’t get Scott Brown writing a public article about the situation though. What is the purpose of the article? It it to draw attention to the “preaching” of God’s Word? Wrong reason. I’m also wondering if concern was expressed for the victim or prayers offered for her recovery? All I keep hearing about is the perpatrators. Although, I believe they are victims as well — of warped parenting and warped religion.

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  32. I don’t get Scott Brown writing a public article about the situation though. What is the purpose of the article? It it to draw attention to the “preaching” of God’s Word? Wrong reason. I’m also wondering if concern was expressed for the victim or prayers offered for her recovery? All I keep hearing about is the perpatrators. Although, I believe they are victims as well — of warped parenting and warped religion.

    That’s just it, Bridget. It’s kind of like CJ writing his book on Humility. It looks to be a show of: it was because of the gospel preaching at our church that Eric turned his life around. It may have been Eric Jackson reading the Bible on his own at his own home. And yes, I agree – – there’s just not much said about the victim.

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  33. @CindyK:

    Who else had such a “problem” and relied on wishful and mysterious thinking about his people and their divine past, using nationalism to advance his cause? Who venerated the kirk, kitchen, and kinder in the process, venerating the right kind of family? (Hanging curve ball for Headless Unicorn Guy or anyone who beats him to it.)

    Obvious Godwin’s Law Invocation, but those characteristics and tropes also hold for any sort of Grievance Culture out for revenge on the Others who wrecked their mythical perfect paradise (of Kirche, Kuche, und Kinder).

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  34. @Patti:

    I got this one from Scott Brown’s marriage blog.
    “During Dan Horn’s message at a past marriage retreat, he asked a very important question of husbands: “When she married you, she gave you her life to spend. Are you spending your life wisely?”

    Spending your life or spending HER life?

    Saw a T-shirt yesterday that states the attitude so well:
    I have the
    [insert slang word for male genitalia here]
    So *I* make the
    RULES.

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  35. @Lydia:

    When I see the Puritans celebrated, I run. There is a reason the Puritan culture died out and it’s descendants attracted to Unitarianism. If you ever want to read something evil, Read John Cotton’s treatise on Indians. It is his “godly” reason it was ok to wipe the tribes out.

    1) Died out or BURNED out?

    2) If the Puritans are the New Israel and Massachusetts is the Promised Land, who else were already there to be the Canaanites? Exodus/Joshua, the Live Role-Playing Game…

    If you want some insight into later puritan culture, read Jonathan Edwards’sermon: Sinners in the hands of an angry God. Crikey. You think that guy really knew Jesus Christ?

    I think the guy was manic-depressive and wrote and gave that sermon when he was in his down phase. I understand it’s not typical of a majority of his sermons, just that it was so well-crafted that it’s the only thing he’s remembered for these days.

    That said, Puritan culture and theology tended towards tunnel vision on your own sin and wretchedness (negative navel-gazing) and OCD-level Sin Sniffing. In fringe literature, there was even a long series of “phantom attackers” conspiracy mania at one point in MA Puritan history — a long series of accounts of sightings of mysterious strangers plotting attacks on the Puritan settlements within earshot of witnesses. Nobody was ever able to track down or trace or even identify these mysterious enemies, so the accounts soon mutated into Witches and Demons.

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  36. @Julie Anne:

    That’s just it, Bridget. It’s kind of like CJ writing his book on Humility. It looks to be a show of: it was because of the gospel preaching at our church that Eric turned his life around.

    AKA a Publicity Puff Piece for OUR One True Gospelly Church.

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  37. Headless Unicorn Guy gets the Cross of Honor of the German Mother today. (…not to be confused with VF’s Mother of the Year.)

    Like

  38. Hey, Phillips called all non-VF or Sproul Jr. homeschoolers Canaanites. (They made it so easy…) Sproul 2.0 called them “movement homeschoolers.” The jokes just write themselves.

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  39. “Hey, Phillips called all non-VF or Sproul Jr. homeschoolers Canaanites. (They made it so easy…) Sproul 2.0 called them “movement homeschoolers.” The jokes just write themselves.”

    Seriously? I have always found inside cult language very interesting. It is extremely powerful. But you have to admit it sounds Neo Puritan enough.

    What a way to look at the world around you.

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  40. “2) If the Puritans are the New Israel and Massachusetts is the Promised Land, who else were already there to be the Canaanites? Exodus/Joshua, the Live Role-Playing Game…”

    Personally, I blame for Puritans (and much of church history) for the lack of progression in society over Centuries. An example, there was enough Puritan influence left in Mass that they called Ben Franklin’s lightening rod “divination” and of satan. The Puritan ethos is one reason Franklin left Mass for Philly.

    So much of what would progress society for the better was considered sin. Like alleviating pain in childbirth. Medicines, experiments, etc. So much of church history is the same…imprisoning Galileo, even down to regulating the amount of courses Genevans could serve at meals during Calvin’s reign. It is any wonder it took so long to progress? Is it any wonder their great Cathedrals are empty today?

    Once those chains were lifted society soared in new inventions, medicines, etc. It is embarrassing. Christians should have been the ones working for the betterment of society and freedom. So when people refer to church history for orthodoxy I cringe. It was an evil bloody prison for so many kept in spiritual sin chains. .

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  41. “I think the guy was manic-depressive and wrote and gave that sermon when he was in his down phase. I understand it’s not typical of a majority of his sermons, just that it was so well-crafted that it’s the only thing he’s remembered for these days.”

    Here is one you don’t hear about Edwards from the Neo Puritans. During the “great awakening” revivals, I believe. He was preaching revivals and discipling some new believers personally who came to the revivals in his town. What many do not know is that several of them (I believe 3 if I remember correctly) committed gruesome suicides. I mean creepy and gruesome. One of them cut his own throat with his shaving razor. They were all youngish.

    He was also real creepy in publishing names of young people in a sort of newsletter distributed accusing them of reading improper books. He had no proof and people went into an uproar. He was very much a sort of Calvinistic micromanager but did not have a Geneva to be a Calvin in.

    He married well though which often saved him on several fronts. Father in law was president of Yale.

    I find it interesting he died in 1758 just as things were heating up for a Revolution and the Puritan influence waning..

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  42. The Puritan influence has been secularized, but it marches on.

    A fundamental problem was the Puritan conceit that their New England regime was the light of the world, the city on the hill that Jesus spoke of. They plainly asserted that.

    Since Jesus was speaking specifically to his disciples (Matthew 5:1), people who elect themselves to that position without being such disciples, or who exclude others that are Jesus’s disciples and don’t belong to their group, thereby distort everything in the entire discourse. And in substituting themselves in this way for the real, they walk in a spirit of antichrist, so we shouldn’t be surprised to see rotten fruit.

    American nationalism has explicitly substituted the American nation for the people of God as described, for instance in 1 Peter 2:9, and this particular usurpation is certainly the Puritan legacy. I don’t think we should expect things to get fundamentally better until this 400 year-old legacy is radically repented of. The past 400 years make that obvious.

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  43. Pingback: Why Eric Jackson Confessed to Raping His Sister | The Way Forward

  44. I find it ironic that Joel Beeke is loved by the conservatives and he writes a lot about marriage but he himself is divorced and remarried and yet still in a position of authority in the church. I am from his area and know this for a fact.

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  45. @CindyK:

    You know that playing pointless games like chess was a sin to the Puritans. You’ve got to redeem the time through suffering somehow, every moment, to purify the soul.

    “The hard, grey, grim, drab, joyless path of Salvation.”
    — James Michener, Hawaii

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  46. @Justabeliever:

    I find it ironic that Joel Beeke is loved by the conservatives and he writes a lot about marriage but he himself is divorced and remarried and yet still in a position of authority in the church.

    RANK HATH ITS PRIVILEGES.
    And a ManaGawd outranks all the mere mortals.

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  47. @Lydia:

    “Hey, Phillips called all non-VF or Sproul Jr. homeschoolers Canaanites…..”

    Seriously? I have always found inside cult language very interesting. It is extremely powerful. But you have to admit it sounds Neo Puritan enough.

    And you remember what God ordered the Children of Israel to do to the Canaanites, don’t you?

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  48. Cindy, I love Depeche Mode. Can I like them and still love Jesus? I think one thing Scott Brown missed in his newsletter was the law. Encouraging Eric Jackson to go to the police and report the situation was key. I am sure many churches have heard a sex offender “confess”, then they tell the offender that he/she is forgiven by God, and sweep it under the rug. As to the offender’s past crimes, surely he/she would never reoffend, because now they know the true God as taught by pastor X. (Snark). The situation is tragic, but without legal and psychological intervention, I doubt much would change. (Especially since the man in question wanted to get his father’s permission). I guess Brown saw an opportunity to use the situation to get credit (indirectly) for his own reputation. I’m sure his work is done now. The fall out for the victim and victim/ perpetrators who were raised by these sick parents will take decades, if not several generations to wipe out. But Brown doesn’t have to worry about it, because his work is done and he can bask in his “success”.

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  49. justabeliever,

    Well, if Joel was a Catholic, he’d be banished from “THE Church”, due to being remarried (which in Catholic terms is the same as a perpetual adultery). Don’tcha just love “religion”?

    By the way, all, I’m surprised that the GOSPEL is what convicted Eric. I always thought that it is the Law of Moses that convicts, not the Gospel. The outcome of the law of Moses is the BAD NEWS. The Good News doesn’t convict, the law does. The good news is that Jesus paid the ETERNAL price, not the temporal price.

    Now, notice that I used the word “ETERNAL”. That does NOT negate out the CARNAL temporal price that one must pay, i.e. JAIL, RESTITUTION, etc.

    I think that some think that just because you repent, that you are sorry, etc., that this negates out earthly punishment. It does not. Sin has consequences. Being sorry is not a free pass to avoid the long arm of the law. He can be sorry all he wants from a jail cell.

    Titus 3:1 (Obey Magistrates)
    Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

    Romans 13:1-7 (Obey Secular Authorities, for they have a sword, and are ministers of God)
    1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

    4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

    5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

    6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

    7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

    Be it known, that God did not replace secular court with the church.

    Ed

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  50. Oh, to add to that, the Bad News is supposed to be preached FIRST.

    How does anyone know what to repent from, if they have no idea what the law is?

    THEN comes the “gospel” (Good News).

    Again, bad news first.

    The Gospel is not first.

    Ed

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  51. “The fall out for the victim and victim/ perpetrators who were raised by these sick parents will take decades, if not several generations to wipe out. But Brown doesn’t have to worry about it, because his work is done and he can bask in his “success”.”

    This.is.it. Sickening.

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  52. ” find it ironic that Joel Beeke is loved by the conservatives and he writes a lot about marriage but he himself is divorced and remarried and yet still in a position of authority in the church. I am from his area and know this for a fact.”

    This goes on all the time and those who are dissed should speak up. In a certain mega divorced couples could not marry there but then a famous “coach” wanted to marry there who was divorced. They made a big deal of it for publicity. No one speaks up. Some just leave. The publicity makes up big time for the ones that leave. They just get new recruits who are into the whole cult of personality thing.

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  53. “And you remember what God ordered the Children of Israel to do to the Canaanites, don’t you?”

    And I bet DP had just the right costume for it.

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  54. This guy says church and family are the two greatest institutions? They’re the same thing.

    As per the New Testament use of family among believers,
    Family = Spiritual Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
    not “Man married to woman with children.”

    Jesus taught any believer in Him is your brother, sister, mother, son, daughter, or father, even if they are not related to you by flesh and blood.

    The Bible does not say that “the (nuclear) family” (which is most likely what this guy means) is one of God’s greatest creations. Some of these family-crazed pastors just assume it is so.

    Check out 1 Corinthians chapter 7, to see where Paul said it’s actually better for Christians to remain single (and hence childless, since Christians are not to have sex outside of marriage and then get pregnant).

    Once more, another preacher makes the nuclear family, being married, and having children into an idol, which excludes never-married adults, the divorced, widows, and widowers, and all childless adults. Jesus Christ never did that. He respected childless and single adults. He himself was single and never had any physical offspring.

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  55. Lydia quoting,
    “During Dan Horn’s message at a past marriage retreat, he asked a very important question of husbands: “When she married you, she gave you her life to spend. Are you spending your life wisely?”

    Lydia said,
    That is bone chilling and blasphemous.

    It’s that and a whole lot more, but I lack the necessary adjectives. A woman’s life is not her husband’s.

    People that teach this nonsense should be forced to read books about boundaries and codependency. They are promoting codependency as being biblical, expecting a woman to define herself by her husband and/or children.

    There is nothing wrong with a woman being a wife and mother, but if your whole purpose and life is wrapped up in that and nothing else, if you are defining your entire identity on those roles (or only on the role of daughter/ niece, whatever) and not putting you first and getting your needs met, that is not healthy for you and leads to years of pent up resentment that will likely burst forth at some point – and lead to years of regret

    BTW, it is also very unoriginal. I have heard Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham, make that quote before.

    When interviewed on Christian television, F. Graham has said on several occasions that when he re-dedicated his life to Christ that he told God “my life is yours to spend any way you want to spend it.” He may be copying off Franklin Graham.

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  56. HUG said,

    Saw a T-shirt yesterday that states the attitude so well:
    I have the
    [insert slang word for male genitalia here]
    So *I* make the
    RULES.

    Not if you’re the guy married to Lorena Bobbitt 😆

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  57. Chapmaned24,

    The law shows us how we don’t measure up. Jesus died for our sins and sent the Holy Spirit to convict us of sin.

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  58. Leslie, I hate to burst your bubble, but the Bible does not tell us that the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. The Law convicts.

    The Holy Spirit’s role is to teach, to reveal, to guide.

    The word “convict” in the Bible is:

    John 8:9
    And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

    Convicted by their conscience. How did they get that conscience? From the law!

    Ed

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  59. Leslie,

    I need to clarify the word “reveal”. The Holy Spirit’s role is to reveal God to us by spiritually giving us insight to the scriptures…not to reveal sin in us. Again, the law does that.

    Ed

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  60. Chapmaned24,

    Respectfully, I totally disagree with you. The law shows us our total depravity and helplessness. It is a schoolmaster. It points us to our need for a Saviour. Since it is Impossible to keep the Law, God , the Father, sent Jesus, The Son. On the cross it was finished. When Jesus ascended into heaven He sad ” I do not leave you alone, but with the Holy Spirit.”. Man was never saved by the law, but was condemned by it.

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  61. “Dr. Joel Beeke was the innocent party in a biblical divorce that involved adultery”

    Carmen, this made me think of what they usually tell the wronged wife: Were you there for him? Keeping your appearance up? Seeing to his needs? Men don’t just stray for no reason.

    Nah. Men don’t have to hear that stuff in that world. They get “biblical” divorces, instead. :o)

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  62. Bridget and Leslie,

    How do you know what to repent from, if you don’t know the law?

    Bridget, you asked what I do with Romans 10:4, and I say that knowledge of the law comes before the end of the law…and:

    Romans 3:20
    …the law is the knowledge of sin.

    I disagree with Calvinism teaching that the law shows our depravity and our helplessness. I am not Calvinist.

    Romans 7:7
    …I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    Ed

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  63. “The fall out for the victim and victim/ perpetrators who were raised by these sick parents will take decades, if not several generations to wipe out. But Brown doesn’t have to worry about it, because his work is done and he can bask in his “success”.”

    A logical consequence of “Say the Magic Words” Salvation. Just Say The Magic Words and You’re a New Creature in Christ, Perfect and Elect with NO Baggage from your past. Just get the Sinner(TM) to Say The Magic Words and you have automatic Brownie Points with God. Sell That Fire Insurance!

    Like

  64. Leslie,

    I don’t want to get into a big back and forth so I will just put this out there as food for thought. What sort of “god” would purposely design and command laws he knew people could not keep? Was this a trick played on the people He had just rescued from slavery? That is a tyrant. Just think if our government did that concerning our daily lives and we were condemned for not keeping it? (Think OT people) That is a monster, tyrant god. If you read something like the Code of Hammurabi you might be surprised at how familiar it sounds to the Mosaic Law but with major differences concerning justice. And even before that with child sacrifice, etc. There is a reason for that. God worked with the present situation. We miss how much the Israelites had become like the pagans in Egypt. We cannot read this stuff with Western Eyes.

    If we read the OT against the very pagan –many gods—-backdrop it helps us to understand.

    The concept devised by man of total depravity has really hurt our understanding of a loving, long suffering, patient God. Hesed translated as Lovingkindness is so much more describing our God.

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  65. “Puritanism: the gnawing fear that somebody, somewhere, is having a good time.”

    BWAHAHA!!! Marian, that was bril!

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  66. Hey guys, I am a Gentile grafted in so the law does not mean that much to me. I often think of the Gentiles in the 1st Century church who were pagans with hundreds of gods to worship. (I read that each village, community had their own special gods)….and when I think of that I think of Romans. Which is exactly what Paul is writing about Gentiles/Jews and what it all means. (Historically, around the time Romans was written the Jews, who had been banished from Rome, were coming back and many being diaspora Jews were Christians, too)

    We see a lot of the converted Jew/ Gentile dichotomy throughout the NT making problems. I mean the Jews had this very important Mosaic law (which was corrupted by their leaders) and the Genitles just get to waltz in with nothing but the Holy Spirit? This was the issue with the Jerusalem council.

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  67. I can go into it more when I am not so tired, but the whole point of the OT was to point out the need for a Saviour.which was fulfilled in Jesus .

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  68. Lydia,

    I thought of the same thing you did. If the husband commits adultery it’s the wife’s fault. How can you be the expert and teach other married couples about marriage, when your first wife left you for another man? Acknowledge that “follow the Puritans” isn’t what makes a happy marriage. It’s the man and woman in the marriage that make it work…together as equals.

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  69. HUG said: “Obvious Godwin’s Law Invocation, but those characteristics and tropes also hold for any sort of Grievance Culture out for revenge on the Others who wrecked their mythical perfect paradise (of Kirche, Kuche, und Kinder).”

    Well, I have been musing somewhat on this all-but-overwhelming desire that seizes me every time I start to write the word “father”…..I can’t help it, I always have “f…u….e…..h….” typed before I recognize Herr (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) Godwin & once again kick myslef for disinstalling spellcheck, back up, & fix it……….
    Godwin, I mean. Not spellcheck, that thrice accursed haunter of a woman who often prefers Canadian spellings, & spellcheck wants to burn me at the stake for it.

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  70. That poor little girl, all she knew from the age of 4 to 14 was that her brothers did things to her that hurt her. I hope that she is taken completely away from that tragedy and put into the care of professionals; people trained to help survivors of that kind of abuse. She’s going to need years of therapy. All of the brothers need counseling as well.

    Scott Brown’s article is full of “gospel” and “Jesus” (which they learned from the fall of VF needed to be included) and this line: “Sometimes, being a captive to sin in the past, means you need to go to jail for the present.” (perhaps paving the road for other offenders to return gracefully to the stage? hmmm.) http://scottbrownonline.com/eric-jackson-and-the-power-of-the-gospel/

    He fails to address the real issue. This was a family in seclusion, with 11 children. I have two children. Staying in tune to just two children takes up all of my energy. I cannot imagine trying to keep up with 11 little people, training them, teaching them, keeping an eye on them as they play… It must have been easy for that situation to escalate into horrible territory, just because the natural tendency of children is to be silly and sometimes do things that they need to be taught are improper The problem with large families is that individuals can be overlooked so easily. Even parents with the best of intentions are not going to be able to mindfully shepherd each child’s heart. It is a systemic failing of the NCFIC’s and Quiverfull’s agenda. We need community. This little girl needed to have someone outside of her “total institution” whom she could reach out to for help.

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  71. What a line of apologetic crap, I mean they are big on manning up, but dont when given the chance. Personally its all a pyramid scheme. Gag, and they have the audacity to call us arrogant.

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  72. HUG”A logical consequence of “Say the Magic Words” Salvation. Just Say The Magic Words and You’re a New Creature in Christ, Perfect and Elect with NO Baggage from your past. Just get the Sinner(TM) to Say The Magic Words and you have automatic Brownie Points with God. Sell That Fire Insurance!”

    I remember the first time I said, in a bible study that I dont believe in voodoo magic spells. The leader looked at me like I was an incarnation of satan. But I dont believe in magic, they do, big time and twice on Sundays. Absolutely correct. They have the answers, even though they still go to doctors. Go read what Jesus / bible caused illnesses and how to rectify them, it is quite clear and the bible speaks very clear on that subject, but they ignore that. Cowards. I mean they think Children are potential hitlers and other such pathetic disgusting nonsense. They make a living spouting this trash about us, the human race. Granted we are broken, need a savior and we need help. But the utter pathetic nonsense they spew is stupid on its face.

    Some of us are no longer amused by your high mindedness. Grow up.

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  73. I hope i’m sharing this video correctly. Here are Doug Phillips, Scott Brown and Joel Beeke talking about Building a Godly Home Vol.1. Scott Brown says: “William Gouge will change your whole way of understanding your role with your wife; of dealing with the weaknesses of the weaker vessel. And then Joel Beeke says about the Puritans, “They make the truth winsome.” If i got the formatting wrong, the video can also be seen at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4VN2sepAE0&list=UUQD1FC4pMsaAwHwlNm7szhw

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  74. Happy to report that I didn’t have any bad dreams for the first time in nearly a week. I can’t express how disturbing all of this is to me. Talking to my best friend, a survivor of incest (father and brothers), helped me tremendously. I was more upset about it all than she was when I told her the details and expressed how much I wish that I could somehow undo what she has endured, let alone what this Jackson daughter has lived. My friend, several years older than me, still carries and contends with the far reaching collateral damage that has touched every area of her life. She has made good of it, but how we would rather have spent our days and our tears about it on more pleasant and valuable things in life. She has made her experience valuable indeed, but the cost has been tremendous.

    Josh Harris said in his sermon yesterday that they’ve stopped the problems from occurring again, but there is no way to halt the damage already done to those who were wounded at Covenant Life and within Sovereign Grace/People of Destiny. No one can give back what was taken, and the wounds only heal and leave scars.

    Though I identify with this little girl now young woman who lived through this abuse, trapped by circumstances and without the means to tell someone — at least in the beginning. I’m angry that this is being waved around like a banner of justice by Scott Brown, though credit where credit is due to them for doing the right thing. And there is this messy, mixed bag of whatever hindered or disabled the morals of these boys to indulge in entitlement in such a manner, though I know that a general entitlement of male privilege is preached to them as some divine right. Were they so sin-sick to start with that an act that society knows instinctively as evil came easily? Is there some legitimate mental health disorder at work in the boys or the parents? Was one fostered somehow? So many questions. Disturbing questions. And it’s not as simple as “they heard the ‘gospel’ here and were changed.” It’s bigger and messier by far than Brown’s simple summary.

    But as Bruce Gerencser pointed out in his blog post (pingback above), this eldest Jackson boy would have started the sexual abuse when he was about 15 years of age. And it continued well into his adulthood when I think that even a heathen off the street would suspect that this was deeply wrong to do. Someone may have pointed that out earlier, but I’ve been so stymied that I can’t wrap my head around it all. At least not yet.

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  75. I was raised in this culture from the age of 16 to 26 The way Scott Brown and NCFIC seem to be heading is disturbing. This quote, “A wife then beholding gentleness and amiableness in her husband’s face, beholds it as the face of God, and as in a looking glass beholds the kindness and love of his heart, and so has her heart more firmly knit to him, and is moved to respect him more.” The NCFIC group has once again hidden the potential for abuse and very ugly imbalance within beautiful words.

    Their focus is, I believe, on “beholds it as the face of God”. That’s putting the men in the place of Christ for the women in the church. (and also, the mirror bit which could be used to say the wife has to give “kindness and love of her heart” to get it back)

    Okay, so some thoughts after being raised this way: Eph. 5:24 “Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in EVERY thing.” and 1 Peter 3;6 “just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.” That was THE theme in our churches. Isolating these verses as the foundation for marriage counseling is dangerous. I was in the Anabaptist side of this type of Christianity but the submission beliefs are almost identical. It’s a breeding ground for abuse of power. Letting each Christian seek Christ individually can be messy and less easy to control.

    For more information on what this can mean for women when carried to the extreme, these messages about submission: (also interesting for anyone who wonders how women in Patriarchy think)

    “Encouragements for Women” http://charitychristianfellowship.org/sermons/title/encouragements-for-women At 28:30 in the message, the speaker says she denied her intuition in a counseling session because her husband was “listening to God” and she was just “listening to herself”. At 34:39 she compares a woman’s role to Job in the Bible. Job 13:15 “Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him.” and she says, “Young girls, Job could trust [God] even if He slayed him and Sarah [Abraham’s wife] could trust him even if she went into a harem, so couldn’t you not trust your fathers if you didn’t agree with their decisions if Job could trust unto death?” At 47:24: “I would have to say if your father or your husband comes to correct you he is probably 100% right because he knows you very very well and because God has placed him above you. But even if he is only 1% right, you can learn something from that 1%.” 48:38 “If you trust God you don’t have to be afraid of your husband.” 49:11 (Still speaking about being corrected by her husband) “I can think ‘This is wonderful! Finally I’m going to get to grow again! This is great. God, help me to be a big girl about this thing.’ And then God does, because you realize it is for your good.” At 59:30 Don’t gossip and complain about the burden of being a wife and mother. At 63:00 How to get your husband to give you instructions for managing daily life. “Take notes when he talks. Husbands love that!” At 66.00: Dangers of a live-in helper. And later in the message, reminders that the Bible commands singing, thankfulness, and joy. Reminder that we are commanded not to have thoughts for tomorrow or be anxious about anything. And the message ends with truly beautiful promises of heaven. [Because, with the hope of heaven, we women can endure a rather hellish life of puritanical self-denial.] 🙂

    Another example of the result of this thinking: “Instructions for a Godly Woman” http://charitychristianfellowship.org/sermons/title/instructions-for-a-godly-woman At 19:46 Jesus was submitted to God the Father even unto death. At 40:00 Reacting to a husband being insensitive by pretending that he is Jesus, and how would the wife treat Jesus? With total accommodation. At 44:00 the speaker does address aberrant husband requests. But, she says that in most cases this will not happen if the wife has “up to this time led an upright life where you submit to your husband in all things, every time” and she uses that as a condition for the husband even having to give the wife basic respect.

    I listened to those sermons so often during my years in Patriarchy that i can quote whole sections! Also, this webpage is a great discussion of Created to Be His Helpmeet, which was our second Bible as wives in the Patriarchy circle. http://createdtobehelpmeet.blogspot.com/ That book is chock full of examples of submitting to abuse of every kind because of gender. The one sentence summary would be: The man is always right even when he is wrong.

    I apologize for how long this post is, and I realize this is from an entirely different branch of Christianity from NCFIC, though similar. I just wanted to show some of where these ideas about marriage can lead for wives. I tried to live this with all my heart, and it just isn’t correct. We cannot put man in the place of Christ in our spiritual lives.

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  76. ” And it continued well into his adulthood when I think that even a heathen off the street would suspect that this was deeply wrong to do.”
    Yes, and this is what drives me crazy about all this! There is no way on earth that those boys didn’t know what they were doing was wrong. The truth is, that they wanted to do it, so they did. They felt “entitled”. They decided that they could just do whatever they wanted to do.
    Nobody can ever make me believe for one instant that none of those young men thought what was going on was OK, right up to the second that he walked into Scott Brown’s church. Nope. Don’t believe it.
    I believe that they knew it was wrong, dead wrong, revoltingly wrong. But they did it anyway.
    And by the bye, I surely appreciate that Bruce is talking about it on his site. An atheist saying something might, I hope, penetrate with a few folks who are still following the party line of the patriarchal, um,um, oops, shall we say, “taurine fecal matter”?
    Where, you know, the cranky old lady in the United Methodist Church baseball cap gets ignored.

    Like

  77. Dear AFewThingsToday,

    You listened to sermons like that repeatedly!? I can’t imagine how you did it. Just reading through your notes once was enough to make me queasy.

    The knots we tie ourselves into, just to look righteous to someone who says he knows best. Humans can learn to get used to anything I guess… even if it leaves scars…

    Like

  78. 1. As an head is more eminent and excellent than the body, and placed above it, so is an husand [sic] to his wife.

    I think I’ll always prefer Matthew Henry’s commentary on Genesis (paraphrased):

    “She was not made from his head to top him, nor of his feet to be trampled upon by him, but out of his side to be equal with him, under his arm to be protected, and near his heart to be loved.”

    As for Eric Jackson, if he really was a false convert all those years before hearing the Word of God preached at Hope Baptist, how much do you wanna bet his parents are the same way and desperately need to hear the Law and the (real) Gospel, not the false gospel of patriarchy?

    Like

  79. @Lydia:

    Hey guys, I am a Gentile grafted in so the law does not mean that much to me. I often think of the Gentiles in the 1st Century church who were pagans with hundreds of gods to worship. (I read that each village, community had their own special gods)….

    “GODS FOR THIS! GODS FOR THAT! GODS FOR EVERY OCCASION!”
    — Centauri Ambassador Londo Mollari, Babylon-5

    Like

  80. @AFTT:

    Reminder that we are commanded not to have thoughts for tomorrow or be anxious about anything. And the message ends with truly beautiful promises of heaven. [Because, with the hope of heaven, we women can endure a rather hellish life of puritanical self-denial.] 🙂

    “In the sweet
    Bye and bye,
    You’ll get pie in the sky
    When you die…”
    — “The Preacher and the Slave” (old Wobbly march anthem)

    Like

  81. The SBC house organ, Baptist Press, has no, zero, coverage of the Morales trial or the fallout at SGM or TGC.

    There is also zero coverage about the court cases involving Caner, which he lost by summary judgment (meaning no jury could ever agree with his claim!) with language by the federal judges that suggest that Caner had lied.

    Like

  82. Something occurs to me about how the abuse might have developed, if it wasn’t by modeling behavior that was done to the boys. I was astonished to read that the older boys in the adoptive family of Hana Williams (murder victim) were allowed to physically ‘discipline’ their younger siblings. Is this common in these patriarchal, quiverful families? If these boys were allowed or told to switch their younger sister on her bare backside, might that not have morphed into sexual abuse?

    Like

  83. @AnAttorney:

    The SBC house organ, Baptist Press, has no, zero, coverage of the Morales trial or the fallout at SGM or TGC.

    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunevent.

    There is also zero coverage about the court cases involving Caner, which he lost by summary judgment (meaning no jury could ever agree with his claim!) with language by the federal judges that suggest that Caner had lied.

    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunevent.

    cue two minutes hate re HOMOSEXUALITY HOMOSEXUALITY HOMOSEXUALITY…

    Like

  84. @Marsha:

    Is this common in these patriarchal, quiverful families? If these boys were allowed or told to switch their younger sister on her bare backside, might that not have morphed into sexual abuse?

    Sounds like a plausible chain of events to me. Especially when said boys are also immersed in the attitude that women (including little sisters) exist only to serve men (like themselves). And oldest brother was in his early teens when it started — after the hormones start surging but before you learn how to deal with it. Probably a Patrio/Quiverfull sex education as an additional factor — he might not have known at first this WAS anything sexual, and since a male was doing it to a female it couldn’t possibly be abuse.

    Like

  85. “The SBC house organ, Baptist Press, has no, zero, coverage of the Morales trial or the fallout at SGM or TGC.”

    I checked out the major SBC pastor aggregate blogs both YRR and Non Cal and NONE OF THEM have a word about it. Not one. It is “verboten” to speak of it. Such manly men of God.

    Like

  86. Here’s an interesting and peripherally related article:

    http://www.dailylife.com.au/life-and-love/parenting-and-families/stop-asking-my-daughter-to-give-you-a-kiss-20130806-2rbp2.html

    The reason is that a kiss isn’t just a kiss, no matter how innocent and innocuous the intent might be. The ritual of demanding affection from children on cue is one of those tiny, everyday little lessons in which we teach children — especially girls — that they are to tailor their emotional responses to please others.

    […]

    By remaining silent and acquiescing to strangers’ desires for Violet’s affection, I effectively told my daughter that ‘It’s ok to say no’ — except when it isn’t.

    This message is too subtle for a four year old to grasp. It can only be understood in absolutes. Which means that Violet needs to know that if she doesn’t want to kiss somebody then she shouldn’t. She also needs to understand that I will always back her unequivocally, no matter how embarrassing this will be to me, or the person asking for a kiss.

    This definitely wouldn’t go over well with Voddie Baucham who will discipline your kid for you if you will not when he sees them misbehave. This includes a two year old shaking hands with him. He’ll correct their sin of shyness if he sees it inaction.

    Like

  87. @Lydia:

    I checked out the major SBC pastor aggregate blogs both YRR and Non Cal and NONE OF THEM have a word about it. Not one. It is “verboten” to speak of it. Such manly men of God.

    It never happened, Comrade.
    Morales never existed, Comrade.
    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunevent.
    doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunperson.

    Like

  88. I have heard Scott Brown say that he respected a young man, for looking up to, listening to, and respecting his “spiritual fathers”, of course one of which was Brown, and the other of which was Phillips. He was stating that the young man looking up to them, was a sign of spiritual maturity. So, it seems that perhaps there is credit taking here by Brown on the Jackson story, because Jackson came to Brown for counsel (or at least to Horn)?

    Like

  89. MissDaisyFlower: “The Bible does not say that “the (nuclear) family” (which is most likely what this guy means) is one of God’s greatest creations. Some of these family-crazed pastors just assume it is so.”

    I know. I was floored when I heard one of them solemnly proclaim that the family (nuclear family, that is) is God’s main tool for growing the Kingdom of God. Not evangelism (what about “Go out into the world and…”?). Nope. It’s having lots and lots of kids and raising them according to the Formula

    Like

  90. NJ,

    I absolutely loved your reference to Matthew Henry’s commentary, and, I couldn’t agree with you more on the rest that you said, too.

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  91. IamMyBeloved’s,

    You had said: ” I have heard Scott Brown say that he respected a young man, for looking up to, listening to, and respecting his “spiritual fathers”, of course one of which was Brown, and the other of which was Phillips. He was stating that the young man looking up to them, was a sign of spiritual maturity. So, it seems that perhaps there is credit taking here by Brown on the Jackson story, because Jackson came to Brown for counsel (or at least to Horn)?”

    I see a major problem with this.  Scott Brown is patting himself on the back here.  Scott Brown is elevating himself as a “spiritual father” as well (For ONE is your Father, in Heaven). 

    What Scott Brown needs to be doing is ensuring that people “look up” to Jesus only.  But before they can look up to Jesus, they need to look down to the law, Scott Brown, included.

    In order for God to lift people up, they first must be brought down.  I see a bit of self praising by Scott Brown.  That is not good.  God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble. 

    Ed

    ________________________________

    Like

  92. chapmaned24: That is why I posted that. It is ridiculous and I just wanted people to know that Brown (and the rest of the patriarch leaders/churches) see themselves as spiritual fathers to the young men. That was my point — that Brown was elevating himself and because the offender was at HIS church when alleged repentance happened, Brown was taking credit for the good stuff. Funny, how he does not see his own teachings as even a part and parcel of the bad stuff that happened prior to the offender coming to HIS church. The arrogance among these patriarch leaders is sickening. I have my own story with being viciously and heinously abused by a particular patriarch leader and his wife, so I get it. I get it very well.

    Like

  93. @IAMB:

    That was my point — that Brown was elevating himself and because the offender was at HIS church when alleged repentance happened, Brown was taking credit for the good stuff.

    Madly in love with the smell of his own farts.

    Like

  94. Pingback: Why Eric Jackson Confessed to Raping His Sister

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