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Joe Carter of The Gospel Coalition publicly attacks Sarah Palin for her use of the word “baptism” in the context of a NRA political rally.
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“Well, if I were in charge, they would know that waterboarding is how we baptize terrorists.” ~Sarah Palin
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Joe Carter, an editor at The Gospel Coalition seems to be a bit miffed about the above phrase used by former Alaskan governor, Sarah Palin. Let me give you the background scoop. Palin, the former 2008 vice presidential nominee, was at a National Rifle Association rally discussing politics, NOT religion. She talked about leftist liberals and Democrats. She talked about violence and terrorism and enemies of America.
And then this comment came out of her mouth:
“Well, if I were in charge, they would know that waterboarding is how we baptize terrorists.”
No biggie. Where was she again? Oh yea, a packed-out NRA rally. The venue was not a church or religious conference. It was a political NRA rally. The topic was not Christianity and making a public profession of faith. It was clearly a political statement meant to rile up her political supporters (read: political, not Christian commentary).
Now I’m not going to be discussing whether I like Sarah Palin’s political agenda or not, whether it’s appropriate to use water boarding on terrorists or not, or whether it’s cool to own guns or not. I have my opinions, but that’s not the point.
However, some people don’t pay attention to the obvious: context, people, C.O.N.T.E.X.T!!! Joe Carter got all bent out of shape over Palin’s words.
Let’s get to the heart of Joe’s article, Is Waterboarding How We “Baptize Terrorists”? – Sarah Palin, Enemies, and Christian Anthropology. Mr. Carter writes:
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Why It Matters: For anyone to confess Christ as their savior and to compare one of the means of God’s grace to an act of torture is reprehensible. I hope members of Gov. Palin’s local church will explain to her why her remarks denigrate the Christian faith. Such remarks bring shame on the Body of Christ and to our witness in the world.
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Joe Carter thinks he’s going all “protect Christ” and “protect the Gospel” by his words. Again, look at the context and look at the venue. Was there a gospel choir singing there?
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No, I didn’t think so. Was there an altar call? Did people bring their Bibles? Perhaps on their cell phones. No, this was a NRA rally. So, let’s take a closer look at that “baptism” word. I checked four sources:
The 3rd entry of “baptism” definition reads:
a person’s initiation into a particular activity or role, typically one perceived as difficult.
Within the 1st entry at Merriam-Webster:
b : a non-Christian rite using water for ritual purification
The 2nd entry:
an act, experience, or ordeal by which one is purified, sanctified, initiated, or named
Dictionary.com:
- any similar ceremony or action of initiation, dedication, etc.
- a trying or purifying experience or initiation.
- Christian Science. purification of thought and character.
Oxforddictionaries.com – (please note the use of the word baptism in the sample phrase)
A person’s initiation into a particular activity or role, typically one perceived as difficult:
this event constituted his baptism as a politician
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Aside from the fact that Mr. Carter seems to make much ado of nothing regarding Palin’s little itty bitty baptism quote, his silence on other matters speaks volume to me – silence about real issues where the Gospel and Christ should be defended and has not by him, nor his friends at The Gospel Coalition – where children have been sexually violated, emotionally and spiritually abused while C.J. Mahaney was at the helm of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Mr. Carter doesn’t want to touch that subject. Well, let me remind you about the little Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) fiasco:
The court documents (****strong trigger warning for sexual content***):
Original Complaint and Second Amended Complaint
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Putting aside the sex abuse and lawsuit, there has been enough turmoil going on at SGM that 20+ churches left the fold under Mahaney’s leadership:
Up to 20 churches have decided to no longer be under the direction of Sovereign Grace Ministries because of disputes over the leadership capabilities of the group’s president, Pastor C.J. Mahaney, and its executive board, say former and present associates. (Source: The Christian Post article)
One of the churches that left the fold was the SGM flagship church, Covenant Life Church (CLC). Pastor Josh Harris was mentored for several years by C.J. Mahaney. Why would Harris, also a Gospel Coalition council member, leave CJ Mahaney’s family of churches? Yet, prominent church leaders (Gospel Coalition council members) still don’t have a problem with associating with this man, or even sitting next to him in front row seats at the recent Together for the Gospel conference.
So while Sarah Palin got raked over the coals publicly by Joe Carter claiming, “Sarah Palin made the sacrilegious remark about how she would treat terrorists,” he remains silent about other matters that are much more important when it comes to defending the Gospel and shaming the name of Christ.
I am not the first person to notice Carter’s silence on the SGM scandal. Christian radio personality, Janet Mefferd, in her article, Why speaking the truth in love isn’t ‘slandering Christ’s Bride’, touched on this same topic:
But why is this significant? As I previously mentioned, The Gospel Coalition kept silent for many months about the Sovereign Grace Ministries sexual abuse lawsuit, in which 11 plaintiffs claim to have suffered heartbreaking sexual abuse and also allege conspiracy and cover-up. TGC has an association and stated friendship with lawsuit defendant C.J. Mahaney, and that means — even if Carter didn’t intend it — when he says, “don’t slander Christ’s bride,” a whole lot of people, rightly or wrongly, are reading that statement through the Sovereign Grace Ministries lawsuit lens. And they’re remembering The Gospel Coalition’s silence.
Here’s a little reminder from Pam Palmer, mother of a SGM lawsuit plaintiff who was sexually abused as a toddler while their family attended a Sovereign Grace Ministries church. A little background info – Pam was told by church leaders to NOT call the police after she discovered that her daughter had been sexually abused. Instead, she was told to bring her toddler in to reconcile with the perpetrator with church leaders. When the toddler saw her perpetrator, she hid under a desk. That visual has never left me.
Earlier, I asked Pam Palmer if she had any comments regarding C.J. Mahaney sitting in front-row seats with prominent church leaders at the recent Together for the Gospel Conference:
Sometimes I am at a loss for words on what to say at the insensitivity and callousness of C. J. Mahaney and the men who support him. What other conclusion can observant people come to when they see a disgraced (yet undisciplined) leader sitting in the front row at such a prominent event other than the men sitting with him approve of his 30+ year record of covering up child sex abuse. ~Pam Palmer, mother of plaintiff in Sovereign Grace Ministries abuse lawsuit.
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Baptism, schmaptism, Joe Carter. Let’s see:
The word “baptism” taken out of context
or
20+ churches leaving one of your council member’s family of churches, or maybe just a little sex abuse oversight – ahem – 67 combined pages of legal complaints of alleged conspiracy and cover up of sexual and spiritual abuse while Mahaney was captain of the ship. hmm.
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Mr. Carter, you seemed to be confused about: “bring[ing] shame on the Body of Christ and to our witness in the world.”
Just sayin’
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Baptism in this context is nothing more than a Biblical allusion, much like calling someone a Good Samaritan, a Mother Theresa, or a Hitler, or saying someone has the Midas Touch. Such literary allusions abound in public domain and are merely hints that give short cuts to understanding. Mythology, Shakespeare, and the Bible provide the most allusions and most of us feel they add interest to oral or written communication. Methinks Joe Carter protests too much.
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HUMBLY, of course. (chuckle chuckle)
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@Linda:
“When you point at something with your finger, the dog sniffs your finger. To a dog, a finger is a finger and that is that.” — C.S.Lewis
Better make that “to a dog or a CHRISTIAN(TM) Spokeshole”…
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Wow, that was a fast response from Joe:
https://twitter.com/joecarter/status/461184331747434497
https://twitter.com/joecarter/status/461185291668422657
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I don’t know who Joe Carter is, but he must be running out of things to talk about. Jesus constantly spoke of the poor, oppressed, God’s peace, orphans and others. If we are to become Christ-like, should we not focus on the the areas where Christ showed His concern? I don’t think semantics was at the top of His list!
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Some people will use anything to cover up real problems such as child sexual abuse or abuse of any kind. Why a mom would listen to leaders who would put a child in harm’s way to be reconciled with a pedophile instead of putting him in jail boggles my mind. A toddler only knew the reminder of fear and had no concept of forgiveness or reconciliation. I am sure that Mom was brainwashed by her church and felt she had to do as she was told. I hope their family is away from this cult.
Common sense just isn’t all that common. Sarah Palin’s use of the word baptism was completely appropriate and she is just being used as a smoke screen.
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While I agree wholeheartedly that Joe Carter’s outrage is grossly misplaced, I have to admit my initial thoughts and feelings when I first read about this.
Sarah Palin claims to be a Christian. I’m sure that many if not most of the attendees at this event would claim that as well. Even though this was not a church event, I think Sarah knew darn well what she was saying by using that term. Many of those on the religious right love to combine faith and politics. While not ‘outraged’ when I read about what she said, my husband and I both shook our heads and frankly I was disgusted.(and thanking God she is NOT in charge..) But not enough to go on the silly rant that Mr Carter did. You are right to call him out Julie. 🙂
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I’m still reading the post. Just wanted to say I loved the Harlem Gospel Choir. Wish I could sit in a few of their church services.
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Carter is obviously picking and choosing who he is comfortable attacking. I’m actually surprised he said this. I would have thought he would keep silent on the issue. He probably has some agenda or is trying to get on someone’s right side. Because there are others bothered by her words too. I find them offensive because she openly proclaims herself as a Christian. She used the term to make points with the NRA but she used it too lightly when she styles herself as a Christian to the public. I rate it right up there with public Christians who say we shouldn’t feed the poor. Irritating and not consistent with the gospel. You can’t be a public Christian then take a term and use it so offensively and expect people to not relate it to the Bible. We don’t separate people that way. There’s a reason we say “you may be the only Bible your neighbor ever reads.”
This is one article on Palin’s remarks I found meaningful.
http://johnnyjeffords.blogspot.com/2014/04/water-life-or-sarah-palin-is-idiot.html?m=1
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Well Julie Anne. You know you got under that guy’s skin!
And talk about erecting a straw man…He did it in spades!
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Oh for heaven’s sake. We’ve gotten where we can’t even use metaphors anymore without running them through a PC Minder. I suppose Christians are going to have their own Banned List?
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Right on Jackie C. 🙂
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I agree that Palin’s remarks were in poor taste. Violence tends to beget more violence.
However, Carter definitely seems to have strained out the gnat and swallowed the camel. Palin’s remarks to the NRA do not reflect on the church near as much as those who support child abusers in the church.
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Sure you did 😉
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Weren’t all the Christians (including presumably Joe Carter) hailing Palin as God’s Anointed Choice for President in 2008? McCain was going to win the White House, then die in office and God’s Will Be Done?
(And it wouldn’t have worked anyway; McCain wasn’t in the best of health, but that old guy turned out to be tougher than he looked — and that’s saying something, given his backstory.)
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Yes, it’s a big deal to profane the term baptism in this way, especially for a Christian. Actually, Rod Dreher at the American Conservative got it right, pointing out the “civic baptisms” used by the Jacobins during the French Revolution:
http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/baptism-as-torture-un-petit-histoire/
The venue is irrelevant. Yes, when Confederate soldiers crucified black Union soldiers that they had captured at Fort Pillow in 1864, it was a battlefield, not a church service, but it was a consciously blasphemous reenactment, in order to crucify Christ afresh. Indeed, the title of James Cone’s book, The Cross and the Lynching Tree, pretty well says it all.
Has it not occurred to you that blasphemous conduct by “Christians,” such as sexual abuse and violence, might be connected to the blasphemous syncretism so prevalent in American churches? If they didn’t love the world, would they act like the world? And if it’s OK to profane the truth of the gospel in this way to serve a worldly agenda, using baptism is a laugh line to the swine and dogs, do you really expect it to stop there?
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“However, some people don’t pay attention to the obvious: context, people, C.O.N.T.E.X.T!!! Joe Carter got all bent out of shape over Palin’s words. ”
Actually, I believe Carter is “pandering”. Who does he work for now? What his job title? And what do they do? There is your answer.
This is about being on the right side of the DC establishment who HATE Sarah Palin with a passion that is unbelievable. And I am talking about establishment Republicans.
The IRONY is that as communications guy for the Ethics and Religious LIBERTY Commission for the SBC, Carter does not have a very good grasp on the LIBERTY part. Perhaps the ethics part we could debate. But I would insist on bringing in examples from the other side of the aisle for balance. :o)
Baptism is a word. It has an etymology. I agree with someone above who said it is like using Good Samaritan, etc. Do these guys ever read any classical lit which is full of biblical words used as metaphors so many nefarious things it is mind numbing to think of it. For crying out loud.
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“Weren’t all the Christians (including presumably Joe Carter) hailing Palin as God’s Anointed Choice for President in 2008? McCain was going to win the White House, then die in office and God’s Will Be Done?”
Not at all. I am surprised more people do not know this.
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I will be the unpopular Neanderthal that gives Palin a break. I am for anyone who WON’T GROW GOVERNMENT and try to micromanage my life like the church is doing, too. I am anti tyranny no matter if political or spiritual.
“Sarah Palin claims to be a Christian. I’m sure that many if not most of the attendees at this event would claim that as well. Even though this was not a church event, I think Sarah knew darn well what she was saying by using that term. ”
Huh? What was she saying by using that term?
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Carter’s tweet: No, I don’t “ignore church victims.” But you certainly seem to ignore abuse when it can’t be used to bludgeon the church.”
Isn’t it scary who is hired for very high paying public jobs in Christendom. Does this make sense to anyone. What “abuse” is he claiming JA ignores?
Sorry but been reading these guys too long and quite frankly, they scare me with their childishness. Where are the grown ups in these high paid positions?. They are full of “comebacks” but rarely do they make sense. It is school yard stuff and Carter has a reputation for it. They are not capable of dialogue or acting their age when someone makes a comment that angers them. It is all over the place out there folks…..in a church near you. And they are paid well, too.
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Many of these patriarchy types will find themselves receiving a different kind of baptism someday. Baptism by fire.
http://www.letusreason.org/Biblexp98.htm
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Paul Dohse’ tweet to Joe Carter:
Hee Hee. It is simply amazing what does NOT offend these guys. Like their hero was a despot who actually believed burning heretics was for God’s glory.
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@lydiasellerofpurple
But…Carter wrote a book on communication… and writes for Acton…everything.
Pretty sure Jesus didn’t communicate dishonestly like this:
https://twitter.com/joecarter/status/461184331747434497
So I recommend that he read his own book.
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“Joe: The question “Why should I buy this book?” is always the toughest for me to answer. After all, if I’m not persuasive enough to talk people into buying our book on persuasion how effective can it be? But the best reasons I can give are because whether you are a student, salesman, pastor, or plumber this book will help you become better at arguing—and that arguing is a skill you should improve.”
Will it teach the strawman? I am just sure that is Jesus-approved (sarc).
http://christianbooknotes.com/2009/interview-carter-coleman/
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@Lydia:
I also think Palin got messed up by being picked as McCain’s running mate in 2008. It threw her zero-to-600 into the celebrity limelight on the national stage overnight. I wonder how much of her subsequent political-career meltdown is the Curse of Runaway Early Success coupled with the microscope of *CELEBRITY* and the deification/demonization of today’s political climate. If she’d been allowed to build up a track record of a couple state-level terms in Juneau, maybe she’d have come out of it all in better shape.
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@Lydia:
The smell of their own farts?
“Poot! Sniff! Ahhhhhhhh…”
— South Park, “Smug Alert”
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How stupid do they think we are?
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PioneerHomeschooler, Christians already have their own banned list. Some Christians that is, in some situations. Like the term “child abuse in the church.” Some say you can’t talk about that. And while some Christians love to boycott (and should since that is a freedom to cherish), heaven forbid if anyone wants to boycott one of their beloved based on remarks or actions they don’t agree with. Then the others are trying to be PC, not also exercising their freedoms. The message is consistently don’t dare get mad if your money supports an action you don’t agree with. Buy the product or watch the show anyway if the person is a Christian.
Headless Unicorn Guy, trust me, not all Christians were supporting Sarah Palin. In fact, none I know did. There were ones I know who supported McCain, not knowing the plan was for him to die in office. And then there were a lot who specifically didn’t support him because of Palin. The woman is an idiot.
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“But…Carter wrote a book on communication… and writes for Acton…everything.
“How to Argue Like Jesus: Learning Persuasion from History’s Greatest Communicator”, by Joe Carter, John Coleman. ”
LOL! Had no idea.
“Pretty sure Jesus didn’t communicate dishonestly like this:”
No, but the Pharisees did.
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” also think Palin got messed up by being picked as McCain’s running mate in 2008. It threw her zero-to-600 into the celebrity limelight on the national stage overnight.”
And worse, she became the star of that show when it was supposed to be “Starring, John McCain”. They will never forgive her for that. If you mention her name in establishment circles, they practically spit.
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“So I recommend that he read his own book.”
hee hee.
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‘The woman is an idiot.”
See, told you I was a Neanderthal. I think Obama is a Oligarchical empty suit. :o)
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‘Headless Unicorn Guy, trust me, not all Christians were supporting Sarah Palin. In fact, none I know did.’
Voddie went on CNN and said she should be home serving her family. :o)
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Joe Carter to JA:
Sadly, I’m not at all surprised to see you defend torture and dismiss sacrilege.’
Notice how disagreeing with his article automatically means you defend torture. These guys are worse than 8th grade boys. And paid well for being so immature. The SBC must be proud. He fits right in with Al Mohler and his boss, Russ Moore.
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Talk about straining a gnat while swallowing camels!
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“Huh? What was she saying by using that term?”
Hi lydiasellerofpurple. What I meant was, as a Christian, Sarah mostl likely assumed that most there shared her faith and would enjoy the reference to baptism, albeit the twisted way she used the term.
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“Hi lydiasellerofpurple. What I meant was, as a Christian, Sarah mostl likely assumed that most there shared her faith and would enjoy the reference to baptism, albeit the twisted way she used the term.
Val, The homosexual “married” couple a few doors down have an NRA bumper sticker on their SUV. Perhaps you have bought into the media caricature of such groups? Perhaps because Charleston Heston played Moses?
It reminds me of the media caricature of the Tea Party. At rally’s here there were quite a few African American speakers. And union workers, too. Who woulda thunk it? (The landscape is changing)
I don’t assume all democrats like Bill Ayers.
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Joe is also an adjunct professor of journalism at Patrick Henry College.
Hopefully, the PHC journalism course isn’t turning out little Joes.
He and I go way, way back -he was a combative, thin skinned know-it-all online years before he started working for the FRC and he is more bellicose and combative now that he is working for the SBC. Joe didn’t and still doesn’t know when to stop digging the holes he gets himself into. I used to think it was his Marine training, now I realize he got exactly where he wanted to be – in tight with the Calvinist/religious right good ‘ol boys. Too bad, he is just crankier and meaner as he gets older, what human side he used to display on his blog years ago is long gone.
I can’t say I’ve seen him stand up for the oppressed and abused, and while he can quote Scripture with the best of them, online I don’t recall him demonstrating grace.
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Could the religious right’s love affair with Sarah Palin be over? As long as they thought she could be used to beat President Obama she was their savior. Now that the President has been elected to a second term that woman has become an embarrassment. I find it all very amusing!
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lydiasellerofpurple, that’s interesting about Voddie. I didn’t know much of this world until Julie Anne’s blog and case drew me in. I have found it interesting that so many conservative Christians support Palin when she would have been a woman with power over men – imagine if McCain did die. She’d be commander in chief. The horror!
Sounds like Carter is once again scratching someone’s back. You don’t ignore abuse right under your nose then call someone out for suggesting torture unless you have a purpose.
Julie Anne, unlike Carter, I do not assume you defend torture and dismiss sacrilege. I think you hit a nerve with him. Keep it up until it’s raw and open.
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“I have found it interesting that so many conservative Christians support Palin when she would have been a woman with power over me – imagine if McCain did die. She’d be commander in chief. The horror!”
For members of the patriarchy cult there is only one thing worse than a conservative white female as president, a liberal black man! Fear of Obama made many of these people willing to accept the horror of a possible woman president so they plugged their noses and voted for McCain/Palin. They hate the idea of a woman in control, but there is one thing they hate even worse!
Interestingly enough Voddie was one of the few who would not support Palin, along with Doug who was still plugging his late father’s political party.
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Keep on that bullhorn, Julie Anne!
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I am sure that Sarah Palins “local church” has no problem with Sarah’s Free Speech. There is a world of Christianity outside of the gospel coalition. Thank God.
But, If I were in charge, I’d tell the gospel coalition to give ’em the gospel, then I’d kill ’em, and let God sort it out. At least those people that are water boarded are still alive. I wouldn’t show that much mercy. Let God show them mercy…after they die.
That’s my military side talkin!! My Christian side states: Give ’em the gospel, then kill ’em. Let God sort it out. Oh…they are the same!! Imagine that.
Ed.
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I feel sick to the stomach about the story of the toddler.. Knowing that her mother probably disciplined her for hiding under the desk…… some people are sooooooo sick in the head… I feel like throwing up.
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It’s rare that I disagree with you on something, but I was appalled by Palin’s remark. Sure, there are non-Christian uses of the word baptism, but coming from HER mouth, in that crowd, it was clearly evoking the image of Christian baptism – and tying it to torture. I can’t stand the Gospel Coalition, I have no love for Joe Carter – but as a follower of Jesus, I think what Palin said was disgusting. You think Carter is swallowing camels and straining at gnats? Well, some of us don’t swallow those camels and we still don’t consider this a gnat, or just semantics. Words matter & these (Palin’s) are a discredit to our faith.
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Sharon Autenrieth,
It might surprise you, Sharon, but some of us Christians do not consider water boarding as torture. In addition, the terrorists are religious, too. I don’t see anything wrong with gathering intelligence by waterboarding. They still are living, and breathing. They wanted to murder Americans.
It has been said time and time again that America does not torture. America does waterboard. Both of those means that waterboarding is not torture. There is a legal definition, which is why no one was prosecuted for it. Those democrats would have pursued it to a touchdown or a homerun if it were, by definition, torture. They hated George Bush that much.
Ed
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I don’t mind if people agree with me, Sharon. No prob.
Here’s my rant: even if Joe has a point (I’m still not changing my mind – lol), it makes no sense to me that he’d get so worked up over that – – a simple word – – a freakin’ WORD. Yet he doesn’t say a WORD – – he remains silent about SGM. What kind of impact does Palin have vs Mahaney regarding what he allowed to go on during his watch as head of SGM? There’s no comparison. What about those who now have long-term mental health issues because of the abuse? What about those who have had a crisis of faith and no longer go to church? Does Palin’s one word have that kind of effect? I think not.
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Jackie C.
You had said, in regards to Sarah Palin:
“The woman is an idiot.”
My response,
I think Sarah Palin is a genius. She is pissing a lot of the establishment off. I say, it’s about time that somebody does. I was in the US Navy during the Ronald Reagan days. Since those days have passed, this nation has become weak and chicken s**t’s. This woman wants us to be strong again. But the weak men wants peace thru appeasement, rather than peace thru strength. The idiots are the men who mock Sarah Palin, and the women who agree with them, just because it’s the biblical womanly thing to do, to agree with the Patriarchal men?
We have no respect around the world, as we did during the Reagan era. I’ve been around the world. Nations make fun of America. Not because of Sarah Palin, either.
It’s obvious that Sarah Palin is not a follower of the Calvinistic version of a sit down and shut up, barefoot and pregnant patriarchal cultish Christianity. Thank God that she has more balls than the goofy Gospel Coalition who certainly does not speak for me.
If I had five thumbs on my hand, I would give Sarah Palin 5 Thumbs Up for what she said. So would the late great Margaret Thatcher, too.
Ed
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I still like her. It ‘ll take more than a not so funny joke from her to change my opinion. I think she is real, I trust her integrity.
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Julie Anne said:
“What about those who now have long-term mental health issues because of the abuse?”
My response:
That is what torture is.
Ed
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Oh boy, Ed, now you prove my point even more.
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I don’t have a problem with you calling out selective outrage. I have enough outrage for both sides of that coin. 🙂
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“It has been said time and time again that America does not torture. America does waterboard. Both of those means that waterboarding is not torture.”
It might surprise you to know that some Christians don’t trust or accept our government’s definition of torture as letting us off the hook on this. It might also surprise you to know that some of us take Jesus’ directives on the treatment of our enemies very seriously. And what possible difference does it make whether they are also religious or not? People – even our enemies – deserves dignified treatment by virtue of being humans, period.
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Ed, Agree. We are not putting bamboo shoots under their fingernails. Cutting their fingers off one by one or many other things that terrorists would do. These people are being scared with water, not tortured. If it saves lives, so be it.
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Sharon,
How would you handle the situation? Are we to simply let these people go and say it’s ok? The young man who was in on the Boston bombings is likely to get the death penalty, are you opposed to that? He is responsible for mudering and ruining many, many lives just as the terrorists are who are being waterboarded. These people would kill again. Next time it might be someone close to you.
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Sharon,
Personal enemies, Sharon, not national enemies of war.
Treatment of our enemies in war is much different than our treatment of enemies that Jesus discussed. Everyone has enemies, and therefore the topic that Jesus is discussing is personal enemies, not national enemies.
Luke 14:31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?
Luke 22:35-36 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and HE THAT HATH NO SWORD, LET HIM SELL HIS GARMENT, AND BUY ONE.
Verse 38 “And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.”
The Jehovah’s Witnesses discuss the Luke one, as they don’t believe in joining the military, that Jesus said to Peter, He Who Lives by the sword, dies by the sword.
What they fail to realize is that Jesus had to get to that cross. Peter thought he was protecting Jesus. Therefore, Peter used the sword in the wrong way. It’s not wrong to use the sword.
________________________________
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Brenda,
Yep, just like Spock on Star Trek used to say…the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.
Ed
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“For members of the patriarchy cult there is only one thing worse than a conservative white female as president, a liberal black man! ‘
That is a good point and I think there is a good reason. If one disagrees with policy when it comes to Obama then one is a racist automatically. I see it on many Christian blogs, too. “You just don’t like him because he is black”. It is not unlike how Joe Carter communicates.
It makes dialogue impossible. I do think many conservatives (the small gov types) would definitely have supported a small government African American. People are begging someone like Ben Carson to run while Obama staffers are calling him and demanding he apologize publicly for disagreeing with Obamacare. I see no difference between someone like Obama and Al Mohler. Both try hard to shame and guit people over speaking negative truths.
Where is Martin Luther King’s dream? Is it not color but character? Is it not color but ideas. Ideas are everything. I like Palin’s ideas better. It is that simple. I am for smaller government. I am anti tyranny whereever it rears its ugly head. I simply support the person who wants to mircromanage me from DC —The LEAST.
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“She is pissing a lot of the establishment off.”
Exactly. She is obvlously from the middle class with no ivy league education or “law degree” from a no where college. Her family is messy and real. She does not speak “DC”.
The establishment did not know what to do with her. They tried hard to micromanage her and shut her down during the campaign. She made a ton of mistakes that the media played over and over. Of course, they ignored Obama’s “57 United Stages of American” and much more. That is just how it is. People like Palin are always held to a higher standard than the accepted establishment person because the establishment frames the debate and the message.
My position is the DNC ran him to beat HIllary. At least that is what my DNC contacts tell me. I mean he came out of nowhere with NO real experience or legislative record. He was chosen.
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Sarah Palin could have been given 100 years to attempt to get ready for being a VP or the President and it would not have begun to be long enough to prepare her. It has nothing to do with she is middle class, lacking a college degree or that her family is messy and real.
She was and is a very poor representative of the Republican Party IMO.
Rant over and back to work.
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Those who go to church are more likely than those who don’t to support torture, which is why she felt comfortable saying this at the NRA – lots of conservative Christians there (http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/04/28/the-pernicious-poison-of-palin-ctd/).
But make no mistake – waterboarding is torture. If the Nazis had done it or the Russians, we would openly call it torture. Just because we do it does not mean it is not. The ends do not justify the means and most experts agree it doesn’t accomplish much anyway.
Palin says these things because these types of groups want to hear them. They like to hear that violence will keep them safe. Just like some people think if you follow certain rules God will treat you right. Palin makes a living off speaking fees and writing. She’s selling a product. That’s it. She’s not a brilliant political strategist. She’s brilliant at sellling herself and her ability to stir people up so they donate to whatever cause has her speak.
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“It might surprise you to know that some Christians don’t trust or accept our government’s definition of torture as letting us off the hook on this. It might also surprise you to know that some of us take Jesus’ directives on the treatment of our enemies very seriously. And what possible difference does it make whether they are also religious or not? People – even our enemies – deserves dignified treatment by virtue of being humans, period.”
So if they took your child somewhere molesting or torturning him but would not say where for “religious” reasons you would be a “Christian” and demand they treat that person with YOUR definition of dignity which means not trying waterboarding as a last resort? Or would you want your child saved at the cost of their ‘dignity” with waterboarding?
These are people who use women and children as SHIELDS. They cut off heads of Jewish reporters. You cannot appeal to what is not there.
Would you say my Uncle who was in Patton’s Army and killed Germans on the front line could not be a real Christian?
It is that thinking that allows abuse to continue in churches believe it or not.
These types are more worried about the proper “Christian” response to an abuser than those in danger. And their “proper response” often shows a total lack of understanding. Even the Anabaptist/ Open Theist Greg Boyd believes we can defend ourselves and try to save others.
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“She was and is a very poor representative of the Republican Party IMO.”
That is wierd. Why? Perhaps a better representative of Libertarian sans the social issues?
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“But make no mistake – waterboarding is torture. If the Nazis had done it or the Russians, we would openly call it torture. ”
Many survivors and familly members of those in the purges and pogroms—- wished that is all they had done.
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“Palin says these things because these types of groups want to hear them. They like to hear that violence will keep them safe. Just like some people think if you follow certain rules God will treat you right. Palin makes a living off speaking fees and writing. She’s selling a product. That’s it. She’s not a brilliant political strategist. She’s brilliant at sellling herself and her ability to stir people up so they donate to whatever cause has her speak”
Every single speaker on any circuit (whether religious or political)nis doing that. Selling ideas and making money from it. Doesn’t everyone know that? Why is it specifically bad when Palin does it except you disagree with her ideas?
Where does all this censorship thinking come from in America? I don’t get it.
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I disagree with you Jackie C.
I am former military, and I totally disagree with you. Make no mistake from me, Jackie C., waterboarding is NOT torture. And I go to church.
And yes, you are right. These people want to hear what she has to say. But why? Because we are sick and tired of our current government that goes against the founding fathers intent. US Military personnel have given their lives…died…to protect a freedom that some just want to give up. Yes, I am one who wants to hear what Sarah Palin has to say. And I go to church.
There is a great country and western song that I heard a couple of years back called soldiers and Jesus.
Well granddaddy came home in a B-52 In a pine box covered in red, white, and blue He was one of the brave and the proud and the few 21 guns helped us say goodbye I stood there in silence trying hard not to cry As the preacher he quoted lines written in red And he folded his bible in a broken voice he said
There’s only two people whose ever died for me Laid down their lives just so I could be free They both went through hell bared crosses and shells And both got back up again after they fell They never pick a fight but their there to pick up the pieces God only knows where we’d be without soldiers and Jesus
It seems like the news loves to run em both down Whenever we need em there always around So don’t hand me a parties political views There’s left side and right side and then there’s the truth
There’s only two people whose ever died for me Laid down their lives just so I could be free They both went through hell bared crosses and shells And both got back up again after they fell They never pick a fight but their there to pick up the pieces God only knows where we’d be without soldiers and Jesus
To me there both heroes for the path that they chose One fights for my life one fights for my soul
There’s only two people whose ever died for me Laid down their lives just so I could be free They both went through hell bared crosses and shells And both got back up again after they fell They never pick a fight but their there to pick up the pieces God only knows where we’d be without soldiers and Jesus
Soldiers and Jesus Well granddaddy came home in a B-52 In a pine box covered in red, white, and blue
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I’d like to put my moderator hat on and urge you all to exercise caution on this thread which was never intended to be political about Palin or whether waterboarding is tortuous.
I have a question. Some are saying Palin, as a Christian, should never have used the baptism term. Is it sacrilege to use important Christian terms in a secular way? (See definitions I posted. There are ways to use the word baptism apart from the Christian connotation.)
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Yes. I am opposed to the death penalty. This is hardly a radical position among Christians across history.
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“That is a good point and I think there is a good reason. If one disagrees with policy when it comes to Obama then one is a racist automatically. I see it on many Christian blogs, too. “You just don’t like him because he is black”. It is not unlike how Joe Carter communicates.
It makes dialogue impossible. I do think many conservatives (the small gov types) would definitely have supported a small government African American. People are begging someone like Ben Carson to run while Obama staffers are calling him and demanding he apologize publicly for disagreeing with Obamacare. I see no difference between someone like Obama and Al Mohler. Both try hard to shame and guit people over speaking negative truths.”
Lydia I couldn’t disagree with you more on this issue of Palin and Obama but that is life! 🙂 I agree with you most of the time on the topics presented here and no two people will always agree. I used to be a staunch conservative voted for Bush twice but after my experiences with evangelical Christianity and patriarchy I now find myself agreeing with the left more often. I did not vote for President Obama either time but I do find myself pleasantly surprised with what he has done. I think I will end up casting my first votes for democratic candidates this fall and I would be happy to support a Clinton/Warren ticket in 2016!!!
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I disagree with your handling of scripture. And perhaps you should read the accounts of people who’ve undergone waterboarding before you say it’s not torture.
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My apologies if anybody has made a similar observation, and I confess to having only skimmed the comments, but if the Southern Baptists with whom I am acquainted are any indication, what Sarah Palin said is not the real issue for this SBC affiliated Joe Carter dude. No no. The Southern Baptists I know are standing up and cheering at Palin’s comment.
You see, the word baptism simply means to immerse. Palin’s comment, in and of itself, is no more offensive than if somebody were to observe that the only reason Joe Carter is immersing his panties in pee is that Palin’s words were spoken by a woman. I dare say that Palin’s comment would not have drawn criticism had they been uttered by the likes of Newt Gingrich — or any other politician possessed of the requisite male reproductive organs.
Maybe, just maybe, the Joe Carters of the world aren’t really opposed to the substance of what Palin said. Maybe they are simply opposed to effective, persuasive, women who are perceived as stealing that glory and thunder in which they believe only men are entitled to be baptized. One thing is for sure. Unless and until they are willing to afford the same leadership roles to women as they currently reserve for men, they are misogynists. They are the same people who, in an earlier time, would have been abusing Scripture in support of race-based slavery.
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“Sarah Palin could have been given 100 years to attempt to get ready for being a VP or the President and it would not have begun to be long enough to prepare her. It has nothing to do with she is middle class, lacking a college degree or that her family is messy and real.
She was and is a very poor representative of the Republican Party IMO.
Rant over and back to work.”
Mot I agree!! There are still some GREAT conservatives out there that I as an independent would still consider voting for. Jeb Bush is one but it seems that the GOP is more interested in carnival barkers like Palin, Cain, and Bauchman. People that to many come off as jokes!
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Thanks for this post, Julie Anne, and the space to discuss this stuff.
From Joe Carter’s post:
Does anyone else think it strange that Carter quoted from a secular psychiatrist? Aren’t a lot of guys on the Gospel Coalition into “biblical” counseling? Or was that just SGM? I haven’t researched that point deeply enough to be sure…
Either way, I find it hard to take Carter’s outrage seriously, for all the reasons Julie Anne mentioned.
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Sorry JA just saw your warning about not talking politics. Feel free to remove my two previous posts! 🙂 I can see how things could easily jump from spiritual abuse to politics and derail this entire post.
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You know, Gary, I almost touched on the gender aspect and so I’m glad you brought it up. I don’t care if she said everything right, do you think a man from TGC would ever support or have anything positive to say about a woman leading our government?
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God is not against the death penalty. Before the law of Moses, God told Noah the following:
Genesis 9:6 Whoso sheddeth man’s blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
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Sharon,
You had said: “I disagree with your handling of scripture”
My response:
Of course you would. Many who profess Christianity only knows the Sermon on the Mount verses. I know “the rest of the story”, as Paul Harvey used to say.
Ed
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Deep breath in. Exhale. Repeat as needed. Restrain yo-selves, peeps. I know you can do it. 🙂
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LOL, Julie Anne! Take it from long experience, there are certain keywords and phrases that are going to blow any discussion into the political realm. Among them are Palin, Obama, NRA, Tea Party, waterboarding and Benghazi. There are others, but if you mention any of them, you are going to get political discussions and Christians are going to disagree, sometimes to the point of claiming the other side cannot be Christian!
As much as I would love to talk the political side, I won’t. My frank observation is that Carter should concern himself with SBC issues and not a speech given by a former candidate to a secular organization. If she were a pastor, talking to an avowed Christian organization, this would be different, but she isn’t and wasn’t.
And believe it or not folks, there are even atheists in the NRA!
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Yep, the religious right is SCARED of a woman in charge. They don’t want to salute a woman.
And, as was said a couple of comments ago, baptism’s ONLY definition is “immersion”.
For Christians to lay claim to that word is a bit unsettling when all it means is immersion.
Ed
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@WendellG:
And among Christians, HOMOSEXUALITY(TM) and ALL its Christianese synonyms.
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JA,
Politics and religion…my two favorite subjects. To me, they go hand in hand, due to the nature of the Declaration of Independence. It’s hard to restrain, but I get your point.
Ed
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If Sarah Palin was running against Hillary Clinton, what would TGC do? Just saying…
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JA asks “do you think a man from TGC would ever support or have anything positive to say about a woman leading our government?” No, my own suspicion is that TGC tends to attract those who think that what God spoke to Eve at Genesis 3:16 ([your husband] shale over you) is a mandate, not a warning. In their misogyny they are guilty of the same moral turpitude as racists and all others who assuage their sense of inferiority, and attempt to build themselves up, by treating others as less-than. In other words, I believe TGC tends to attract narcissists.
My comments here are not intended as a broad brush indictment of all Southern Baptists. To their credit, on the issue of misogyny in politics, I’m sure the great majority of Southern Baptist I know voted for McCain/Palin. (I am only granting credit on the question of misogyny in politics. I neither endorse nor condemn Sarah Palin and her political views.)
Then again, I expect the great majority of Southern Baptists with whom I am acquainted fall on the wrong side of the question of female leadership in the church. Sigh. . .
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Carmen, their heads would explode!
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@GaryW
I received my theology degree from a Baptist university and it was interesting in preaching classes. We had one woman in our class and though they taught the party line that women could not be pastors, they treated her with the same respect as all of us men. Of course, this was before the ultra-conservatives took over Southwestern Seminary in Fort Worth and pretty much relegated women to being pastor/missionary wives….
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“Is it sacrilege to use important Christian terms in a secular way?”
Would it be “sacrilege” to use Carter’s word to name a secular business with a religious word–for example, Hallelujah Coffee Shop, or Amen Gutter Company?
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@JA~
“Here’s my rant: even if Joe has a point (I’m still not changing my mind – lol), it makes no sense to me that he’d get so worked up over that – – a simple word – – a freakin’ WORD. Yet he doesn’t say a WORD – – he remains silent about SGM. What kind of impact does Palin have vs Mahaney regarding what he allowed to go on during his watch as head of SGM? There’s no comparison. What about those who now have long-term mental health issues because of the abuse? What about those who have had a crisis of faith and no longer go to church? Does Palin’s one word have that kind of effect? I think not.”
I was reading this article posted at sgmsurvivors and thought number 6 applied as far as “thinking the best” about SGM-and it is a sickening indulgence:
“6. Because religious organizations preach brotherly love, even when someone has done horrific crimes, there will be those gullible enough to defend the predator or willing to look the other way. The book Betrayal, by the Boston Globe has account after account of exactly that kind of sickening indulgence. But you don’t only have to look at religious organizations; just look at how many still defend, poodle-like, Jerry Sandusky, the convicted ex-football coach at Penn State, even after so many revelations of child abuse. In the book, Betrayal, there is example after example cited of parishioners, even fellow priests, staunchly defending priests convicted of serial offenses.”
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher/201404/why-predators-are-attracted-careers-in-the-clergy
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Diane,
You can bet that, to Carter and his ilk, it would be sacrilege for a woman to name her company Hallelujah Coffee Shop or Amen Gutter Company, but possibly only at the point she began to out-shine male-owned businesses. Certainly it would be an issue should Hallelujah Coffee Shop be drawing patrons from some big name Christian organization’s coffee shop ministry.
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Oh, please. Must you be arrogant about this? Why do you assume what I know and don’t know? I’m a Pastor of Christian Education who takes “a new command I give you” very seriously. Giving primacy to Jesus’s teachings hardly makes me ignorant of the Old Testament.
Your condescension is both unnecessary and uncalled, and the lighthearted bloodthirstiness in the first comment you posted to this thread tells me all I need to know about how any further conversation will go. I’m out.
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@ GaryW–lol
Joe Carter’s tweet~
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“It might surprise you to know that some Christians don’t trust or accept our government’s definition of torture as letting us off the hook on this. It might also surprise you to know that some of us take Jesus’ directives on the treatment of our enemies very seriously. And what possible difference does it make whether they are also religious or not? People – even our enemies – deserves dignified treatment by virtue of being humans, period.”
“Yes. I am opposed to the death penalty. This is hardly a radical position among Christians across history.”
Sharon Autenrieth I agree with you 100%. I could care less about whether or not Palin called waterboarding “baptism,” the terminology is irrelevant, but as a Christian I don’t condone torture or the death penalty as I believe they are against the teachings of Jesus, and waterboarding is clearly torture in my book. There I was able to comment without being political. I didn’t think I had it in me!!!
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Wendell G,
My personal issues with the SBC have always been with the leadership, not with the members in general. When a SBC preacher “suggested” that I quit visiting their adult Sunday school class a couple of years ago (I had questioned the propriety of using fear and psychological intimidation as a evangelistic tools), the rank and file church members were both appalled and apologetic.
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Off-topic FYI: If you want to copy a tweet here: click on the date stamp (I’m on a Mac and don’t know if you have to right click), and copy and paste the link directly here. You don’t need to do any HTML formatting or tags, WordPress grabs the link and displays it like a real tweet. It’s so easy!
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Diane,
So, am I correct in thinking that this Amen Gutter System company is male owned, or is it required that a female owned company somehow, and however subliminally, be associated with something as lowly as a gutter?
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But Gary, gutters are placed high on a house. If they were always placed low, then we might have a problem.
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Well, but JA. Gutters may be placed high in relationship to that part of the house that sits directly on the basement, but they are still installed below the lowest level of the roof. It may be that these TGC types will admit women to commerce, which they no doubt (incorrectly) deem to be higher than, say, common labor, but only at the lowest levels possible. O.K. I really do need to get back to work.
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“I was reading this article posted at sgmsurvivors ”
Diane, Thank you so much for linking that article. That’s just the sort of info I bookmark for future reference when others simply cannot imagine a “man of God” committing heinous acts. It sometimes doesn’t matter how much evidence is available. You have to show some people how real the possibility is.
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Please excuse the “they is” in my last comment. It should read “they are” I really should take the time to proof before I post, sigh!
Mod note: Hey, Taunya, I can edit my own comments and still leave mistakes 🙂 I fixed it.
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It is a great article. I’ve got it bookmarked, too.
Totally off topic: I’m trying a new bookmark program because I was keeping links in a very primitive fashion. I just got an account at Diigo.com Has anyone used it? And if you’ve used it and you like something better, please let me know that, too.
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“My personal issues with the SBC have always been with the leadership, not with the members in general. When a SBC preacher “suggested” that I quit visiting their adult Sunday school class a couple of years ago (I had questioned the propriety of using fear and psychological intimidation as a evangelistic tools), the rank and file church members were both appalled and apologetic.”
Please don’t get me wrong. I am not a defender of the SBC. I have not been there for over a decade.
My suspicion is that this pastor was wanting to maintain peace at any cost and did not know how to handle doctrinal debate. It is really sad.
There are many evangelistic approaches and no one is better than another in all situations. For example, I have no use for street preaching. I won’t do it and don’t care for it, but I also don’t doubt that many have been saved through it. My preferred method is through relational evangelism, not constantly telling someone they are going to hell because they don’t believe. The key is to listen to the Holy Spirit about the approach to take in each individual case. I figure that He is the one who works on the heart and He is the one who can communicate to us how best to give the message.
That is not to say that fear is necessarily a bad motivator. Johnathan Edward’s classic sermon, Sinners at the Hands of an Angry God was quite effective at the time. I just don’t think it should be the automatic go to method in each case.
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