ABUSE & VIOLENCE IN THE CHURCH, Calvary Chapel Franchise, Calvary Chapel Lawsuit, Sexual Abuse/Assault and Churches, Spiritual Abuse, WhoWouldJesusSue?

Pastor Chuck Smith, Founder of Calvary Chapel Churches, Dead at 86

Julie Anne

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Alex Grenier, son of Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier shares his thoughts on the passing of Calvary Chapel founder, Chuck Smith

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Update and Disclaimer:   I’ve been getting some push back because of publishing this article the same day in which Pastor Chuck Smith died.  I understand the concern and do respect that opinion, too.  If you are visiting my blog for the first time, this place is safe haven for survivors of abuse.  An important part of what I do here is allow victims of abuse a platform to share their stories that were often not allowed to be told, were minimized, or dismissed entirely.  

This presents a dilemma to me.   On one side we have a beloved pastor, father, grandfather, friend who is now gone.  That is sad.  There are lots of wonderful memories.  Yet, is there a “right” time to air a story like this?  When is that time?  I try to put myself in the shoes of survivors and I think I can do that as a survivor myself.  What does it feel like for a survivor to hear the death of someone in a powerful position who had many opportunities to stop abuse, yet failed to do so?  

It is for those people who I have posted Alex’s article.  Alex speaks on behalf for those who have no voice.  

If you feel the timing is inappropriate, I can appreciate that, but have decided to go ahead and keep the post up.  I am doing this especially for those victims in Calvary Chapel churches who have felt abandoned.  I think it is important for them to know that if they are feeling mixed feelings about Pastor Chuck Smith’s death, they are not alone.  This blog exists for survivors.  Please feel free to skip the rest of the post if you disagree with the timing.  

This article is cross-posted by permission from Alex Grenier’s blog, Calvary Chapel Abuse.  As some of you may recall, Alex Grenier was raised by his father and Calvary Chapel pastor, Bob Grenier. I met Alex because he was following my defamation lawsuit brought on by my former pastor.  Alex, like me,  has used his blog to highlight his personal story and other stories of abuse within the Calvary Chapel franchise of churches.  Since that time, Alex has been sued by his father for defamation, etc, and is currently awaiting a lengthy appeal process with the anti-SLAPP lawsuit. I have written several articles on Alex’s situation:

I think it is very important to read Alex’s words. He has been a loud voice defending the abused and has seen the corrupt system in which abuse has been enabled among Calvary Chapel churches. He reached out to Pastor Chuck Smith for help numerous times, brought personal testimonies, etc, to no avail.  Chuck Smith essentially said his hands were tied and couldn’t help.

While many in the Christian world are mourning the loss of Chuck Smith, it is important to look at the  power this man had and what he did and did not do with it.  What does Chuck Smith represent to those abuse victims whose voices remain silenced?  ~JA

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Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel dead at 86. Daughter reports the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pastor and leader of the Calvary Chapel non-denomination has passed as a result of his battle with lung cancer.

Chuck Smith, co-founder of the Calvary Chapel non-denomination, has died as a result of complications from a battle with lung cancer. He was 86-years-old.

Chuck Smith, co-founder of the Calvary Chapel non-denomination, has died as a result of complications from a battle with lung cancer. He was 86-years-old.

Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel fame has died in the early morning of October 3, 2013 according to daughter Janette Smith Manderson. Chuck Smith has been battling lung cancer since he was diagnosed with it in late 2011.

My feelings are mixed.

Some of the last words I heard from Chuck Smith were his calling down God’s judgment on me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit in classic “Touch not God’s anointed!” form.

Full audio of the public rebuke and warning here:

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From Chuck Smith’s public rebuke of me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit:

“There is a young fellow…who has created a website…a blog…in which he has been attacking me and Calvary Chapel viciously because his step-father was abusive to him as he was growing up…and he is wanting to bring his step-father down. And…so because I won’t take action against his step-father…because I, really…every Calvary Chapel is independent…I’m not in control of them…nor do I want control of them…I have a hard enough time just being in control of my own ministry. And, I just don’t want to have the responsibility of having to try and control the over 1,500 Calvary Chapels we have in the United States….so he is attacking me also on the blog and saying that I’m covering up all kinds of horrible things and making a lot of accusations and all…”

“…and I called him up and invited him down [this is factually incorrect, I first called Chuck Smith at his office and then reached him live at his home]…to try and sort of make peace if possible.”

“So, I promised him I would look into the situation…and I did…and then I wrote to him a response…and I sent it to his email address…but somehow it didn’t go through. And, it was endeavor on my part for reconciliation…but the email didn’t go through…I don’t know why…and I gave it a couple shots…and it didn’t go through….so I just sort of let it go…so he became really upset that I didn’t respond to his charges and so-forth against me…”

“So I was thinking…what can I do…and how can I defend myself…against all of these charges which are false and lies…and things that he is putting out on his blogsite. As we were finishing here tonight…as I was in my final prayer…the Lord just of spoke to me and said ‘look you’re praying that you’ll learn to turn things over to the Lord…let me fight your battles…and here you’re considering how you can deal with it…just leave it with me. I thought oh yes…and so….[pause, clapping]….I’m thankful for the help of the Lord”

“…and you know, I feel sorry for the guy. BECAUSE, WHAT I COULD DO WOULDN’T HURT MUCH…BUT I TELL YOU..WHAT THE LORD WILL DO…I CAN REALLY…UM…YOU KNOW…WELL…I’M GLAD I HAVE THE LORD ON MY SIDE. “

I publicly stated on this blog after hearing that very sobering and hurtful “Touch not God’s anointed” chilling warning from the very powerful and influential Chuck Smith…something that would have rocked most people hearing that chilling warning that “God is on my side and he’ll zap  you!”…I had a feeling Chuck had called down a curse on himself, if God was in fact real, as I knew I was right in these matters.

Chuck Smith was diagnosed with Lung Cancer about a month or so after this public rebuke of me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit.

I then commented publicly that I had a feeling the cancer would kill him, despite the happy and optimistic updates from his daughter and all the prayers for his healing etc…unless Chuck repented of his lying and his wrong handling of this situation and his wrong public rebuke and warning to me…when he and BG were in the wrong.

Well, the cancer has killed him and Chuck Smith died without repenting of this situation and without coming clean and without seeking reconciliation with me…other than some email that’s lost in cyberspace (according to him).

Calvary Chapel Pastors: Let this be a lesson to you. If you truly believe the “Touch not God’s anointed” garbage…if you truly believe God is “on your side” and you truly believe that critics and those who call you to accountability and responsibility are “of the devil” and that God will zap them for you….then what do you make of this situation? Coincidence? Random chance? Or did God do this as a public statement of who was right and who was wrong?

As a skeptic, I think it’s random chance and just a huge, though very very big, coincidence. I don’t think Chuck Smith or you as a Calvary Chapel pastor are “specially anointed” nor do I think that God will zap your enemies for you, etc. But, what if that dynamic is real? What if God is real and God does step in and zap folks sometimes, like Ananias and Saphira? If it’s true, then what are the odds this is coincidence? Again, I think it’s random chance, I don’t think God is active in this manner…BUT YOU AND YOUR DEAR LEADER DO and have expressed this dynamic and used this “Touch not God’s anointed” warning many times…believing that God does intervene sometimes and does punish folks sometimes in these sorts of matters.

So, what do you believe now? I’m sure the Chuck Smith “faithful” will be as skeptical as Richard Dawkins and any atheist and mark this one down as “random chance” and “coincidence” and “no connection whatsoever”…because the victim, this time, was their guy, their Dear Leader…and no way their Dear Leader could be wrong or could be lying or in sin etc. No way, not a chance.

If you embrace “Touch not God’s anointed!” as Chuck Smith both practiced and professed (see the Christianity Today article where he gives a chilling warning to the reporter and even quotes the verse about ‘touch not God’s anointed, do my prophet no harm’)….then circumstances around Chuck’s handling of the BG situation and Chuck’s subsequent cancer and death should chill you to your core.

My guess is you Calvary Chapel guys are full of s**t and you only profess a belief in spiritual things when it supports your narrative and your leaders and your business….God does all sorts of stuff in circumstances when it fits your agenda..otherwise everything is just random coincidence.

To the family of Chuck Smith, especially Chuck Smith Jr. (who is a great guy)…I’m sorry for your loss. Chuck had many good qualities. He was a mix of good and bad like we all are. He did a lot of good while he was on this planet…and unfortunately, he was also human like the rest of us and did some bad stuff as well. Net-net, I think Chuck as a man was a decent guy, not perfect, but decent. I think the position, the power, the Chuck-worship was a lot of temptation for him and I think that sort of power corrupted him over time, but he wasn’t near as bad as many others who have reached similar success. I think Chuck helped a lot of folks and I think, from what I’ve gathered, he treated you kids well and was a good husband. My beef with your Pops was the Machine he created and his propagation of particular mythology like the “Touch not God’s anointed” crap…and the Moses Model dynamic in the form of the CC pastors are “special” and privileged and God is “on their side” and will zap their enemies. That is dangerous stuff…and it’s the reason I drive this particular point home so strongly. Chuck was not “specially anointed”…he was talented. God was not on Chuck’s side, nor was he against Chuck.

Let my example dispel the myth of “Touch not God’s anointed” and Moses Model CC pastors are “special” and God is on their side. God will not zap you for questioning them and challenging them and calling their b.s. If you don’t believe that, Calvary Chapel-ites, then I must be “specially anointed” as God zapped Chuck and not me (if your theory is true). I am not specially anointed, therefore Chuck’s and Calvary Chapel’s thing is a myth. Run from it. Don’t repeat it. Let all that garbage and nonsense die with Chuck.

Wishing the family peace in their time of grief, wishing the Calvary Chapel pastor progeny of Chuck Smith repentance of their error and a new course for the future.

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225 thoughts on “Pastor Chuck Smith, Founder of Calvary Chapel Churches, Dead at 86”

  1. there he is!

    hey, brad, being that you were the cyborg who put together the archives. .

    do you remember how long BG was a confessing Xn before he was given a Calvary Chapel to pastor?

    wasn’t it like a week or something? do you remember?

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  2. High-ranking staff at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa know about this — and a whole lot more. The battles behind the scenes for power, the radio station, the devotion to end-times Dispensational views that kept Chuck Smith from developing a succession plan.

    Anon2: If you go over to the Phoenix Preacher thread from yesterday, you will see that I mingled with a high-ranking person from CC. This person, Pastor Dave Rolph, was very close to Chuck Smith and considered Pastor Chuck to be a “father” to him, having served with him at Chuck’s church for 25 years, etc. He expressed on the blog that he was unable to respond at the time. That made sense to me and I apologized for asking him such a pointed question earlier (not putting 2 and 2 together who he was and his relationship with Chuck Smith).

    What do you know – – – late last night, I received a lengthy e-mail from Dave Rolph. That surprised me after his earlier comment saying that he would be unable to respond. But that’s emotions for ya.

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  5. –’ It’s in one of my earlier blog posts. Here it is. SIX DAYS!!!”

    Seriously? That is malpractice. That show total lack of discernment and wisdom of Chuck Smith.

    Monax:

    “As C. S. Lewis says, “Good and evil both increase at compound interest. That is why the little decisions you and I make every day are of such infinite importance.”

    This is so true and is one of the things I have appreciated about NT Wright (with whom I disagree with quite a bit) as this is exactly what he teaches. And we have to actually “practice” virtue. You simply do not hear this stuff anymore as we are all walking around saved but with wicked hearts and unable to do any good. So we can be both godly and doing evil at the same time. I simply have had enough of it.

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  6. Here is the quote from the bio of Bob Grenier. I should check and see if they put it back up because it was down for a while:

    The Lord saved me on Feb 6th, 1973, and I entered full time ministry on Feb 12th, 1973, becoming part of the “Shiloh Ministry”, which had grown out of Calvary Chapel in Southern California.

    Gayle and I moved here to Visalia in the summer of 1978, and the Lord established Calvary Chapel Visalia. We are both deeply committed to “finishing our course well” See Acts 20, and are blessed beyond words to be serving Jesus Christ in this body of believers.

    I just checked – -the bio is up at the site and still includes those dates: http://calvarychapelvisalia.com/?page_id=59

    One thing that struck me when I originally reported on this story was the fact that Pastor Bob Grenier failed to list that he has children and grandchildren. I’ve never seen a pastor’s bio without mention of how many kids, grandkids. Why would he not include them? Could it be because he is estranged from them? That speaks volumes to me.

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  7. Julie Anne thank you for your kind response back. One thing I know I appreciate this blog for the very reason of being able to express with freedom our concerns and criticisms, and at “many” (I put that in quotations because there is a definite need for this blog to point out the numerous evils done in the name of Christ) times harsh realities. I am not one to be miffed if anyone disagrees with me. I will either look at it and see if they are right or move on.
    That being said, I also believe in life there is always a time and a season for things. There is balance. JA, you will be a voice here for the abused and victimized whether or not you posted about Chuck Smith at this time. My concern was the timing. We know in Ecclesiastes it says there is “a time for mourning, a time to kill, a time for peace”. Maybe a good thing was to mourn the fact that this man did not use the opportunities God gave him for what was right and good. But at this time I still think it was good to give the family their own space without the blogosphere, no matter the wrong he did.
    I learned something by watching Korean Dramas (fiction, I know, but they do tell some truth about their culture). Most of the shows dealt with dysfunctional family issues and some dealt with death. Some of the dead were pretty nasty characters. In every episode I watched, I was amazed at the treatment the Korean people gave even to those that were enemies. They gave space and time for healing of those deceased and their families. In all of these dramas, forgiveness and redemption were the main themes. Just something I noticed and something to chew on.

    All in all, JA you are doing a fantastic job at the blog; just be in tune with the HS and you will turn it out fine. Balance is a good thing.

    Monax (David) – good to hear from you. I pray for you often and all the stuff you are going through with your church. Email me sometime with more info. 🙂

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  8. i don’t know lydiasellerofpurple,

    but i do know you and i subscribe to very different theologies. .

    nevertheless, you and i both agree that Jesus Christ is the center of it all. .

    grace and peace

    monax

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  9. Faith, I’ve been hoping that you’ve been keeping me in your prayers. I know many others have too, and I’m immensely grateful.

    Regarding the issue of my confronting the elders of Fourth Presbyterian Church in Pittsburgh—I’m still waiting for one more thing to fall into place. In my efforts I’ve found God’s timing to be beyond my knowing. So thank you, sincerely, for your prayers. This is an enormously delicate matter. And I want to be entirely directed by the Holy Spirit in all I post to SpAu.

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  11. Pingback: Christianity and Emotions: When One Person’s Emotions Trump Another’s | Spiritual Sounding Board

  12. Debbie made it personal with her first comment. And she always comes in with a machine gun firing.

    This just keeps getting worse and worse and worse, and who is heading the pack? Lydia of course. She just turned this into an Calvinist argument. Lydia loves twisting the truth. And she has done a beauty again. This has nothing to do with Calvinism, this has nothing to do with anything but what I have already said. Good grief. I have no hidden agenda. This is insanity and Lydia leads the way. She does not know me. I have always been sincere in what I write. The same cannot be said of Lydia.

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  13. t4ho, I get you & respect your opinion. I don’t knock you for having a differing opinion. As for Koreans, by and large are respectful & VERY opinionated people. 😉 Real discussions at the funeral home/church are postponed, until the parking lot or meal afterwards. christianagnostic said something along these lines in her comment. Across cultures, if truth about the dead is unspoken, it’s not for very long… You can’t keep the truth hidden. That should be a lesson to us all about our own legacy. It is a sum of our behaviors & actions.

    So, my opinion: We are not at the viewing. This is not the funeral home. We are not having a meal with the family. This is a spiritual abuse blog, where one would expect things like this to be discussed. If not here, then where? Must those who have been hurt be silent & alone right now? The family has comforters, so must the hurting as well.

    As for Debbie, she started out here blasting & accusing JA of abusing the family as an insensitive abuser. My opinion? I find that appalling. Classic tactic to put someone in questioning mode. Then she backpedals saying she has respect for JA. So we let our guard down? Her next comment swings back to say this is beyond the pale of wrong. Strong words to say the least. Yikes! If she feels so strongly about it then has she contacted the news media on their negative write-ups/articles/posts? Why go after a spiritual abuse blog who’s MINISTRY IS the hurting?

    Lydia, I’ve found your comments here very helpful. Thank you! You have proven yourself to be a true defender of those who have been hurt. Good for you. They have been silenced too many times. Some have left the faith because they were told to be silent about their experiences. They aren’t valued in the hierarchy. This bothers me, too.

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  14. She does not know me. I have always been sincere in what I write. The same cannot be said of Lydia.

    I’m going to say the same to you, Debbie – let’s please not get personal. As far as the last sentence, there’s no way of you or any of us to know anyone’s heart – we can only go by their words.

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  16. Debbie, I just read your 1:23PM comment. What you’ve written on this post yourself speaks for you. If you go back and read what you’ve written it might help you see why some of us are bothered by them.

    But the good thing is you got me thinking about something: Many victims are told to pray & to wait for repentance, to wait for God to change hearts, to pray for forgiveness for the wrongdoer, etc.

    Basically, victims are told to wait. They are put into a “holding pattern” somewhere up high in the sky, indefinitely. They are effectively, essentially neutralized, alone, without support.

    This just my opinion, but what you are saying seems like more of the same. It seems the wrongdoers get first priority, consideration, respect. I can’t imagine how that would feel. My heart goes out to them. For those of you in this position who read this blog, please know I care. What I write here is with you at the forefront of my mind. When I think of you, I can’t wait for later to speak up.

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  17. Funny how Debbie wants to whine and complain about this post, but she keeps on commenting and driving the page views and comment count upwards.

    Here’s the deal, Debbie. If you think the timing of this post is distasteful, then go read another website. Instead, you just want to be a noisemaking windbag like so any other conservative Christians that want to complain about TV shows while being too dense to realize that they can just change the channel.

    Protocol and just good human decency would dictate that.

    Protocol? What freaking protocol exactly? That’s just ignorant nonsense pulled out of the side of your head. {mod removed 1 sentence}

    **JA removed personal attack**

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  18. This just my opinion, but what you are saying seems like more of the same. It seems the wrongdoers get first priority, consideration, respect. I can’t imagine how that would feel. My heart goes out to them. For those of you in this position who read this blog, please know I care. What I write here is with you at the forefront of my mind. When I think of you, I can’t wait for later to speak up.

    Once again, A Mom knocks it out of the park.

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  19. Eric: You can talk to your hearts content. In private. Just not on the internet where anyone including Chuck Smith’s family and friends can read it. I hope as a Christian I have compassion for both here. A man has just died. Blasting begins on the very day and not even a full day after his death. Sorry but that is inhuman.

    Amom: When victims make victims of others that is wrong. When victims strike out at an inappropriate time that is no different than publicly picketing a funeral. It’s wrong. Talk to your hearts content. I have no problem with that. Just keep it off of the internet. Rick Warren said the hardest thing was when your critics don’t let you grieve.

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  20. Protocal and good human decency were missing from the life of Chuck Smith and that is a part of who he was. We can celebrate the revelation of the truth about Chuck Smith. Debbie, get off the horse and come and comfort the wounded, instead of standing up for the evildoer who is now dead, praise God.

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  21. Yes, I agree 100% that A Mom knocked it out of the park!

    Lydia, I too have learned so much from you. A Mom said it best: “Lydia, I’ve found your comments here very helpful. Thank you! You have proven yourself to be a true defender of those who have been hurt. Good for you. They have been silenced too many times. Some have left the faith because they were told to be silent about their experiences. They aren’t valued in the hierarchy.” AMEN!

    I am no longer scared. Not as strong as I want to be, not yet. Lydia & J.A. are my role models, well actually, there are many here who daily inspire me.

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  22. I have not said be silent. I have said now is not the time when a family and friends are grieving. Protocol and just good human decency would dictate that.

    Well, you have essentially said that I should pull down the post – – that it’s not the time to feel. So those who are grieving can feel, but those who are aching because of what he represents cannot grieve their loss at the same time. You are telling them their feelings don’t count right now. They have to put theirs aside. Read my next post. You are saying that their emotions trump another person’s emotions. Where do we find any scriptural precedent for that?

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  23. Debbie,

    I don’t think you get it. You just called victims critics. Victims are now critics? That’s what they are? All I can say is WOW. Not even close, Debbie.

    Keep going. I’m learning much.

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  24. “When victims strike out at an inappropriate time that is no different than publicly picketing a funeral. It’s wrong.”

    No different Debbie? That seems to be some flawed logic. I thought your rant on J.A. and Lydia was inappropriate. You are only stoking the fire here and coming across as a self righteous bore.

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  25. Debbie said:

    Eric: You can talk to your hearts content. In private. Just not on the internet where anyone including Chuck Smith’s family and friends can read it. I hope as a Christian I have compassion for both here. A man has just died. Blasting begins on the very day and not even a full day after his death. Sorry but that is inhuman.

    It’s inhumane for you to elevate one person above another. Both relatives/friends and abuse victims are feeling emotions. You are giving more value to one than another. His death affects a multitude. And for crying out loud, there is a disclaimer at the top. No one is forcing them to read here. They should know what’s coming if they are on a survivor blog. Dave Rolph was very close and personal with Chuck Smith and he knew very well what was going on and actually visited Phoenix Preacher website. He fully expected that Alex would have the response that he did and was glad for it. Go check it out yourself. Of course his family knows there will be mixed responses. They’ve been living with this for a long time, too.

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  26. “It’s inhumane for you to elevate one person above another. Both relatives/friends and abuse victims are feeling emotions. You are giving more value to one than another.”

    Exactly right. BINGO. The definition is hierarchy.

    So victims are seen as critics. What’s new? Victims must also pay attention to WHEN they speak, because to speak RIGHT NOW is considered “striking out” (lashing out?) & blasting, as Debbie puts it. Why not duck tape them for a few days? That will keep them quiet!

    Did Debbie mention certain words must wait more than a month, in one of her comments? I am so confused about how long, the time-frame, victims must wait. Does anyone know?

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  27. A Mom asks:

    “Did Debbie mention certain words must wait more than a month, in one of her comments? I am so confused about how long, the time-frame, victims must wait. Does anyone know?”

    I’ve asked it before, too. Debbie? Can you respond to this? Who decides how long is long enough for victims to wait? How did this arbitrary number get determined? Oh, and where is the biblical reference for this grieving statute that I apparently wasn’t privy to?

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  28. I understand the opinion of waiting. I just disagree. And agree to disagree. Good. And I respect them, they have a right to their opinion.

    But for someone to say to the hurting that they are abusive and just as bad as the abuser if they don’t wait? That’s a whole different ballgame. I have a problem with that because it’s a false accusation. It’s wrong. Not even close to the same thing.

    And something’s very wrong with the mindset of a person who believes that. How do people get away with what they do when there’s others around? With this type of support.

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  29. “Lydia loves twisting the truth. And she has done a beauty again.”

    What did I twist specifically? I will explain what I probably did not explain well before. I have been around your commenting since 2006. I have noticed a pattern. You tend to blast the folks/blogs that have taken on Calvinism or discuss YRR problems. You make declarative statements like this just recently:

    “Eric: You can talk to your hearts content. In private. Just not on the internet where anyone including Chuck Smith’s family and friends can read it. ”

    Note– you don’t say, “I think it would be best if you….”

    No, YOU declare what people can and cannot do. You seem to think you are the arbiter for everyone else. Sorry– but seen it over and over since 2006.

    “The same cannot be said of Lydia.”

    Debbie, I always think you are sincere and that is part of what scares me about you. How you would know whether I am sincere or not is truly amazing. You must have some special anointing we cannot have. I can only go by words and patterns of communication in this venue. I have no interest in motives, tone, intent, sincerity or anything else when it comes to this form of communication.

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  30. “I am no longer scared. Not as strong as I want to be, not yet. Lydia & J.A. are my role models, well actually, there are many here who daily inspire me.”

    Oh my goodness! You are making me cry!

    Gail, the day I started getting strong is the day I said, “I am a priest in the priesthood of believer”. If that means I stand alone then I stand alone. It will just have to be me and King Jesus. It is an upside down Christianity out there where good is evil and evil is good. This thread proves it. And every day we read of situations that prove it over and over again. We will be called everything under the sun: Jezebels, bitter, angry, liars, etc. If standing up to that gives ONE abused person some inkling of courage to take one more step forward then it is worth it to stand alone.

    See, if JA waited a month later, they will be saying “but Chuck is not here to defend himself. How dare you. This is inappropriate”. Trust me, there is NEVER a “good time” to out the wrong doings of the celebs and stand up for the hurting. And no one learns anything because people don’t want to be “inappropriate” now do they? It is when we stop allowing others to define it for us that we can get stronger.

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  31. Christian service message, just issued:

    No worries. ALL are cared for, ALL are valued. There is a death queue provided for the hurting. You will be put into queue once an abuser dies. You will receive elevator music on your ipod, duck tape in your mailbox & Biscoff cookies in flight. Please refrain from reading all news media & commenting on spiritual abuse blogs. Talking amongst yourselves in person in private is allowed.

    So please board the plane which will fly you back into the holding pattern you were put into the first time you spoke up. For how long? That’s yet to be determined.

    See? The dead maintain some control over the hurting, and more value on the hierarchy ladder to God, even when in the grave.

    Hope this silliness helps cut through to what is being said. And provides some comic relief, I certainly need some.

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  32. Lydia, you have observed what you have seen of Debbie’s online behavior. In turn, Debbie has attempted to assassinate your character. Debbie is not content to allow others to simply disagree with her. We must all conform to her wishes. When we do not, she essentially accuses us of moral turpitude.

    Unless and until Debbie chooses to confess her error, change her accusatory ways, and be reconciled on such terms as are deemed appropriate by those she has attacked, she will have no credibility, at least not with me.

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  33. I agree with the rest as not getting to personal with this- we CAN agree to disagree. Even though I do not agree with the timing, I could not equate what JA wrote with the abuse of Chuck Smith. That is going a little to far! JA, I will tell you respectfully when I disagree; this should not be a problem. We are mature here and we are to carry on in the love of Christ.

    I left a Calvary Chapel church where I loved the people dearly because I knew the doctrines were wrong and knew what Alex went through was horrible! These men in Calvary Chapel churches across the nation did not try to find out what went on nor did they stand up against the abuses, which were widespread.

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  34. If the tried and true “do not talk” rule would be imposed to keep their victims from speaking truth about their abusers, if there is to be an attempt to to paint those who would speak as the problem, then I say:

    MAY CHUCK SMITH’S VERY FUNERAL BE PICKETED!

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  35. T4HO:

    I need help on this paragraph – specifically the I could not equate part. What exactly is going too far?

    I agree with the rest as not getting to personal with this- we CAN agree to disagree. Even though I do not agree with the timing, I could not equate what JA wrote with the abuse of Chuck Smith. That is going a little to far! JA, I will tell you respectfully when I disagree; this should not be a problem. We are mature here and we are to carry on in the love of Christ.

    My reading comprehension may be off. I need a nap – lol.

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  37. Oh sorry, I meant that putting your post on par with the abuses of CS were a little ridiculous- if that was what I was reading from Debbie. I think that is a little too much.
    I told you what I felt with concern for my sister in Christ not to get on a arguing match with you, so I hope no one took what I said in that way.

    Well with a blog like yours I could see where you would need a nap! 🙂

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  38. t4ho, Yes! We CAN agree to disagree. I’m with you. This is not a problem. Every person has a right to what they think. Absolutely.

    The problem is when someone TELLS someone else what to think or makes controlling-sounding & irrational statements.

    As if a blog post is the same as the abuse being written about. Good grief.

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  39. A mom,

    the holding pattern airplane analogy is perfect when it comes to those abused about not only WHEN they can speak up but HOW they can speak up.
    I cannot begin to tell you how many victims are warned about their “tone”. If one makes communicating about their horrors so difficult is it any wonder so many wait so long or never say a word? And that only helps all of us enable more evil done.

    I can remember one woman saying that she cannot hear such “vulgar” things. As if telling the TRUTH of what was done to a person is a sin!

    People can be so callous.

    It is getting old. And ridiculous.

    Does anyone know why Israel went to so much trouble to kidnap Eichmann and put him on trial, televise it when they could have simply assassinated him in S. America? People needed to hear the horrors. Especially that younger generation. They needed to know what the victims went through.

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  40. Lydia, I begin to suspect that the presenting issues, i.e. talking so soon about the recently deceased, is not really the issue. Maybe the topic at hand is just a pretext. Maybe it is a pretext for criticizing, on any grounds, those who have expressed views in opposition to a life-controlling dogma. Maybe the present criticisms are being leveled in an attempt to satisfy some psychological need, whether conscious or unconscious. Once again, I may be wrong. However, some explanation is required. The presenting issue regarding the timing of speech simply is not, in and of itself, of sufficient consequence to credibly explain the hostility with which Debbie speaks.

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  41. A Mom 🙂

    Do you realize how many personalities are melding on this board? How many gifts of the HS are being of use here also? There is no way in this world that we will not get caught in conflict here- it is impossible! Paul had conflict with, I think Barnabas, in taking Mark with him on his journey because there were some obvious issues between them. We do not even know who was the right in this situation- Paul or Barnabas? Lol- so we think that will not be so here?
    I just know that we are here together for one purpose and one unity- the body of Christ going against the injustice and abuse of the church. Julie Anne graciously took my criticism and I give her a hug for that.

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  42. Thanks for the explanation. Now I get it.

    Well with a blog like yours I could see where you would need a nap!

    No, I need a nap from all the referring between 4 boys regarding computer use today. They actually need to learn to share. OY!

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  45. Not sure why my comments wont post. Just tried 2 more times. Weird, I am not doing anything different.

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  47. No, Gail. Raymond said he had problems before, but aside from you two, I haven’t heard anybody else have problems that I recall. If you can’t get something through, you can always send it to me and I’ll post it for you.

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  49. David, even if there are 10 links, it will just get held up in moderation and there’s nothing in moderation.

    Ack – I found them in the SPAM folder. Hang on, let me get to them.

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  52. No links Monax.
    J.A. I sent you e mail. Now, I am getting extremely embarrassed because… Well, you can guess.

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  53. Dang, I responded, but my comment didn’t post. Trying again.

    Thank-You Lydia! I am going to copy your words and put them on my night stand.

    May I go off thread for a bit and share that I am doing some unpacking of spiritual abuse one step at a time. I must have internalized the teaching that women were to be nice, passive, quiet & gentle in spirit, because it is very difficult for me to speak when in the company with the likes of: Sweet sincere mean women and born4battle types.
    I shut down, but I no longer cower! I am not a passive, quiet women here on the home front, my husband would attest. It is a conundrum. I believe it is because I was indoctrinated some 20ish years to not make waves at old church, in other words shut up & submit to those who are in authority over me.

    I need prayer to get over this. It is like this fear that I am going to get in trouble for how I respond, especially if I call someone out. I know that is irrational. Fallout from abuse? I think so. Thanks for listening.

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  57. Lol JA, have two boys myself and man, the spats that these guys are going through- “You’re bothering me……no, you are annoying me…. blah, blah, blah.”

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  58. Monax,

    Hopefully you will see that I felt a tad shy for sharing how I feel in speaking out… Then my comments disappear… O, boy. Sweating for nothing other than my comments went into spam. ( :

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  59. “need prayer to get over this. It is like this fear that I am going to get in trouble for how I respond, especially if I call someone out. I know that is irrational. Fallout from abuse? I think so. Thanks for listening.”

    Gail, You probably will get in “trouble” with someone at some point. It is normal to fear that. That is not irrational at all. My goodness– reading these blogs only prove it.

    But take that fear and think about it. Do you “care” if you are in trouble with someone? What would happen? What is worst case scenario. What will you really lose if you speak up or do not respond as they think you should? Is it actually worth losing?

    But it sounds to me as if you ARE getting over it. One step at a time. Just always remember how valuable you are in the Kingdom. Believe it. You are.

    God bless and yes I will pray for you as I know there are others here who will do the same.

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  60. Choking back tears. Love you too David. Thank-You! You come to mind often & I pray for you.

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  65. Yay, Gail. I’m glad you chimed in! 🙂

    There are two things you said that resonate with me.

    “I was indoctrinated some 20ish years to not make waves at old church, in other words shut up & submit to those who are in authority over me.”
    “It is like this fear that I am going to get in trouble for how I respond, especially if I call someone out.”

    I understand. We are ingrained to only speak well of people in authority in churches. The repercussion for just asking a question can be awful. Silence is the rule. Questions abound & it’s hard for faith to grow stronger. But I’m happy there are so many resources out there today. Paul mentioned many excellent resources in this post that I found personally helpful:
    http://paulspassingthoughts.com/2013/07/07/taking-back-the-bible-from-christian-academia-confident-study-of-the-scriptures/

    I’d like to say this is not how the body of Christ should function. All are equally important. The janitor may question, disagree & thank, appreciate the pastor & vice versa. And all at the same time even. That’s okay. That is loving your own body.

    I see empty vessels, not energized humbled servants as leaders (who would be the first to say they’re wrong). Words have become more important than actions. Spin masters abound. However, we can be discerning. God does approve of it.

    Sweet dreams everyone!

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  66. What did I twist specifically?

    I would say the first words on your comment to the very last words of the very last comment. You twist everything into Calvinism. {JA removed sentences here.} Calvinism has nothing to do with this. Moral responsibility and victims becoming the abusers is the issue here. {JA removed sentences here.}

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  67. Ok – this is getting ugly. The last comment was over the top and I had to remove more than half of the content.

    Let’s not bring in debates from other blogs. Let’s also stick with the subject content instead of attacking people.

    Thanks!

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  68. Lydia, I begin to suspect that the presenting issues, i.e. talking so soon about the recently deceased, is not really the issue.

    Gary, it is the only issue. It is really the issue.

    Amom: When someone dies, as Chuck Smith has done, there is a right and wrong. Being a victim does not mean that you get to say and not care who you hurt. That is how a child would respond, and of course I would allow a child to speak. They are children.

    I am not saying to be silent. If I would have thought that I would not have supported Julie Anne and others who have spoken out. But there is a death here. A fresh death. A few weeks to let the family grieve is the right thing to do. Yet that has not stopped and only spurred many to speak out even more. That is when speaking out becomes wrong. When you think more of your pain than the pain of someone else who you do not agree with at there most vulnerable time, that is cruelty.

    You are all adults and while I understand the hurt, I have been there too, as an adult it does not mean there is no self control and human decency. It does not mean that a victim can do no wrong. And all they do is right. It is destructive to self and to others. Lately, victims are out of control. Running amok. I am shocked, I am concerned, not just for the victims, but those they are lashing out at and the timing as in this case. Let the family mourn, let them grieve in peace. That is my only message and yet it has caused a bigger blow up. It’s wrong. It’s horribly wrong. It makes all of you no different than the one who abused you. I don’t want those who have lost someone to be hurt and I don’t want this for you. Are you content to stay in this mode of victim or is healing a want. This is not going to heal, it is going to keep you right where you are.

    I believe in a God of love not just for you but for the grieving as well. I do believe God is in control of everything and that includes using us for further His plan. The Bible doesn’t teach an eye for an eye, but to love those who hate you. To love our enemies. Christ came with a different message which is why he was crucified. Those who hated Him and his message killed Him. But He rose again and is alive today. Belief in Him binds us to Him. We become like Him. We can’t help it. I am a Christian first and foremost. I cannot help but feel pain for this post affecting Chuck Smith’s family. Just as I couldn’t help but feel pain reading your stories.

    But when those stories become a license to destroy I cannot support that any longer. To my knowledge Chuck Smith was not a Calvinist, so this cannot be about Calvinism. I disagreed with Chuck Smith’s theology, so it can’t be that I am a fan of his. Quite the opposite actually. People were cruel when Jerry Falwell died and I spoke against that as well and anyone who knows me knows I am far from a Jerry Falwell fan. My credibility or lack of means nothing to me. I love the church and people. I hate and despise evil and abuse done to others, as has been done to you, that I have no doubt. But that does not mean that’s it’s ok to turn around and do it yourselves to someone else. Then it’s destruction and pure hate. We have enough of that in the world. Do good. That is my message. And good is not this.

    I thank Julie Anne for allowing me to speak.

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  69. Ok, I think we have beaten this subject up. There are some people who disagree with the timing of the post, some who think the post is appropriate. I’m not removing it. I think it’s appropriate considering the audience here.

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  70. “Lately, victims are out of control. Running amok. I am shocked, I am concerned”

    Blanket vague declarative statement. Who are and where are these victims running “amok”. What is running “amok”? Give examples of what you are talking about besides this blog post, please. Victims would like to know, I think.

    “Are you content to stay in this mode of victim or is healing a want. This is not going to heal, it is going to keep you right where you are. ”

    What exactly are your professional credentials to make such a statement? Exactly how much have you studied the effects of say, child rape, on an adult survivor? And can you make a blanket statement that every victim heals the same way?

    “I do believe God is in control of everything and that includes using us for further His plan.”

    Here we go. More beating up of victims in the form of: God is in control of child molestations, abuse, etc, and will use it for His plan. It is insidious.

    Talk about blaspheming the Character of God! As in: He has a plan and it includes you being abused so He can use you to further it. So, get over it. Oh yeah, and God loves you.

    Sheesh! People really believe this stuff and even teach it.

    “The Bible doesn’t teach an eye for an eye, but to love those who hate you. To love our enemies. Christ came with a different message which is why he was crucified.”

    This is where I really get confused. First of all, where on earth is an eye for an eye anywhere near the subject matter? You are claiming Julie Anne was going for vengeance in her blog post? Is that it? How can you even begin to say a blog post about Chuck Smiths legacy concerning Alex’ situation is the same as what Chuck did? How is that an “eye for an eye”?

    You called it vengeance earlier. That is the same as believing any seeking of truth or speaking of truth is vengeance.

    If the abuser and those who protect the abuser are long time professing Christians in ministry, are they enemies? Are they brothers and sisters in Christ of the abused? How does that work in your construct?

    “But when those stories become a license to destroy I cannot support that any longer”

    Not sure why your support is important to anyone but I will ask what exactly victims of a deceased person might be destroying. Truth? Destroy truth? .You are literally pitting the worth of the remaining family members to the worth of the victims. It should not work that way. Truth should be the focus.

    Discussing how it affects victims when their abuser or those who protected and promoted their abuser when that person dies is VERY appropriate. May we all learn from it and maybe even some repent and do the right thing now while they can.

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  71. “Then it’s destruction and pure hate. We have enough of that in the world. Do good. That is my message. And good is not this.”

    And Debbie, this makes NO sense in light of what you claim you believe and I have seen you declare over and over on other blogs. You believe NO ONE CAN DO GOOD. Remember? All are totally depraved with wicked hearts. We are unable to do good, remember? Jesus did it for us on the Cross.

    Your only recourse is to ask God if it is in HIs plan already to force those people He chose way before Adam sinned, to do good. God is controlling us 24/7, remember? We have no volition in any of it.

    I will never understand why you guys don’t live out what you believe and tell others is truth of how God operates. Is it because it does not work in practical application? I have come to the conclusion that is the reason. . See, if you lived out what you say you believe, you could not rebuke others for anything because as you have said above….it is all part of God’s plan. We don’t really have any input at all. That makes every single comment you have written here, moot.

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  72. Debbie, the following language from your post here is ABUSIVE of the victims: “It makes all of you no different than the one who abused you.” If that is your opinion your are and ABUSER of the victims, and insisting on your right to ABUSE them. Please stop. If the family goes to a survivor site and sees what is there, that is either because of their own ignorance or because they were abused by the deceased too.

    I am sick of the abuse of the abused by someone who should know better. And you just keep beating them up here. Please stop, get on your knees, beg forgiveness for your hard heart, and apologize

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  73. Debbie, Please stop. You are repeating yourself. Your accusations are painful. I wish you would have as much compassion for those of us who have been wrecked by abuse as you do for the Smith family. We are real here, bleeding. Do you understand or care that you are using your tongue as a razor blade to slice us to pieces?

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  74. I have another perspective. I’m grateful Debbie tells us her true opinions. I’m glad she’s true to herself & us. I’m glad JA lets us see her comments. JA’s blog is proving itself to be a safe place & I hope it will continue to be as time goes on. A spiritual abuse blog, if it truly defends & exists for the hurting, can be a place where a hurting person watches as they are protected, defended, & stood up for. Possibly for the first time. THEY are the agenda.

    This is what they desperately need to see in the body of Christ. To experience this love from others, to know they are not alone, to be supported may even help restore faith. It may be healing. It may bring a ray of hope. It may bring some peace. Better sleep at night. All happening without one word from them, if they so choose. And eventually, they may cross a bridge & say something here someday. They are that loved. 🙂

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  75. My Observations:
    1. It is okay to disagree on this issue, IMO. Waiting is the issue. For both sides to discuss why & why not without getting bent out of shape. Why can we do that? It is a matter of opinion, not sin. As long as neither side forces their opinion on the other, it’s okay to not agree on this. All can express the whys of their opinion & all opinion is valued. we can read or sit this post out, & know we are always welcome. All in brotherly/sisterly love. This is true unity.
    2. Debbie’s opinion crosses the line into condemnation & rebuke of anyone writing anything negative about this pastor’s life because of timing. She is insisting, demanding that to not wait is to sin. And she’s saying it is grave, horrid sin. She says it’s sin equal to & on par with the wrong-doing of the abuser. This false accusation crosses the line & is unacceptable. It is wrong & needs to be corrected. This is what destroys unity.

    Bottom line, we need to know what is sin & wrong-doing & always stand up to that without negotiation. Opinions on the other hand we are free to have & we can respectfully disagree with each other. We don’t force opinions on others. That’s a red flag.

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  76. Why did I ask Debbie to keep going in an earlier comment? To tell us more?

    So we can learn while in a safe place. This is a rare opportunity we don’t typically have in everyday life. It’s a case study on “things are not always what they appear” in real time. Damage control, spin, PR run many churches… even the small ones. The chances are that someone hurt will go to a NICE person (pastor/elder/fellow pew-sitting Christian) who they think will help them, only to find out that they won’t, are HUGE. And that’s devastating. The reality is there are many who look the part, say & insist they defend truth & right action, while siding with the unrepentant abuser subtly. Subtly how? They will look for some perceived wrong or sin in the hurting & then focus on it and/or say it’s the same. This is a red flag.

    It’s terrible reality & doubly damaging because the hurting will rack themselves over it. The wrong-doer sinner suddenly becomes them, they have now switched places. I want to say to do this to a hurting person is evil, that’s how strongly I feel about it. If someone or a church does this to you in your life, you have every right to stay away from them. Period. You can walk away for a time or for good. You don’t need to answer to anyone.

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  77. Should someone “pretty up”, “put a filter on it”, “go on the down-low” with their real opinions?

    I understand the damage that Debbie is doing here. It’s not acceptable. But I can’t tell her to “pretty up” because that makes her harder to distinguish. It bothers me too. It is a catch 22, a no-win situation when dealing with the likes. And this is about more than Debbie. For me, I’d rather know where someone stands, no matter how painful that knowledge is, so I know the real them, so I can be wise & make good choices. The more I know, the better off I am in the long run.

    As much as racism, gender discrimination, spiritual abuse, physical abuse is awful… I’d rather a person be upfront about it than to be on the down-low about it. They may be ignorant & that can be fixed, they can learn & change. Praise God. But once I know someone is crystal clear & intentional, with an agenda & shouts it from the rooftops repeatedly (it’s not a matter of ignorance or being uneducated), I try to be cautious about telling them how to behave. They may just learn to disguise themselves & appear like something they are not. We may not realize, but we may be encouraging or teaching them to go underground. We can’t make them change. They decide. The best thing that can happen is that they’re outed. The best thing that can happen is to know who is who.

    After an appeal for right is made & rejected, there is no longer an excuse. I don’t feel comfortable teaching that person what right looks like, they already know & they’ve rejected it. We are all adults here, this is a spiritual abuse blog, they know better (we aren’t depraved or unable to get it, we can chose right). I’m more interested to see what these ones really think & why. And I am putting the pieces together. Why are some swept under the rug in a church of all places? IMO, it’s for the hierarchy. Hierarchy alone is the silent & not so silent chant that I see over & over. I am getting an education here.

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  78. “For me, I’d rather know where someone stands, no matter how painful that knowledge is, so I know the real them, so I can be wise & make good choices. The more I know, the better off I am in the long run.”

    Excellent point. So true.

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  79. A Mom said:

    JA’s blog is proving itself to be a safe place & I hope it will continue to be as time goes on. A spiritual abuse blog, if it truly defends & exists for the hurting, can be a place where a hurting person watches as they are protected, defended, & stood up for. Possibly for the first time. THEY are the agenda.

    I learned something wonderful when I was part of a process group years ago. I learned that if the group is healthy, others within the group will speak up and identify problems they see. A lot of people challenged me privately when I allowed Fred Butler to engage here. I knew that there were voices who would challenge him – – which help others to realize that it is okay to challenge church leaders – to ask questions, to even disagree with them. When people feel they are safe, they do start using their voices. It’s been wonderful to watch this process with a number of the regulars here.

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  80. Fwiw, and I don’t want to be a lightning rod of hostility, so I reluctantly comment, but I haven’t considered SSB a safe place for months now. Consider in your own hearts how it’s hardly safe for me to even say it’s no longer a safe community, that’s how unhealthy the environment is here.

    Safe, of course, is always relative to the boundaries defined. SSB may act as a safety zone for some, but it certainly isn’t (in my personal opinion) a spiritually healthy community.

    Also, I haven’t felt at home here for months. And that’s sad, because ja’blog was once my home for over a year.

    Please I sincerely ask—just consider my thoughts and feelings without expecting me to go into details, or to answer for myself (as some of the most strident voices here demand ppl do). I already feel beat up in anticipation of posting such a comment.

    grace and peace

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  81. “Please I sincerely ask—just consider my thoughts and feelings without expecting me to go into details, or to answer for myself (as some of the most strident voices here demand ppl do). I already feel beat up in anticipation of posting such a comment. ”

    How can anyone here know what to censor in their own comments if you don’t give us some idea of what is not safe for you?

    What would you consider spiritually healthy? Can you give us some clue as to what you mean? Many people have different ideas of what that constitutes spiritual health.

    Not sure how anyone can help if we have no ideas what mean. I guess that means I am a strident voice but not sure how anyone can operate in an environment where some think it not safe or spiritually healthy but not say how or why? Is that really fair?

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  83. monax/David,

    I really appreciate your letting us know you haven’t felt safe here for awhile. I had been noticing your absence, and I am wondering if I might be part of the reason. Some people (not you of course) have come here lecturing and condemning, and I have pushed back and pushed back hard. Sometimes I pushed back at the theology that seemed to me to be driving their aggression. In taking aim at what appeared to me to be these people’s theology-driven antagonism, I fear I may have incidentally and unintentionally caught you in my line of fire.

    If and to the extent I have been part of your discomfort (if that is the right word), I am deeply distressed. I hold you in the highest regard. I consider it the highest of compliments that somebody with your scholarly achievement has condescended to engage me in some conversations where I was no more than a child presuming to engage the great master (not to be confused with the Great Master, of course).

    I am tempted to address what I suspect might be the issues, but will not do so for fear of completely missing the mark. Therefore, I invite you to register your complaints, at least insofar as I have been a cause of offense. If you wish to do so publicly, that is fine. Otherwise you have my email address. Whether or not you wish to use it to register complaints, please do continue to feel free to email me.

    Thank you, David, for being a friend.

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  85. “The chances are that someone hurt will go to a NICE person (pastor/elder/fellow pew-sitting Christian) who they think will help them, only to find out that they won’t, are HUGE. And that’s devastating. The reality is there are many who look the part, say & insist they defend truth & right action, while siding with the unrepentant abuser subtly. Subtly how? They will look for some perceived wrong or sin in the hurting & then focus on it and/or say it’s the same. ”

    100% agree with this. Why? Because it happened to me in regards to my spiritual abuse within the church. I found out (the hard way) that because Christians idolize pastors and churches, the pastor is going to be right, even when he may be dead wrong. If the person has been pastoring the same church for decades, no one is going to go against him. Those who do find the courage to challenge are quickly shut down, and may even lose their job/position (in the most spiritualized way of course). Jeff Vanvonderen said that people shut up and call it unity, and no truer words have been spoken.

    Usually when you go through any form of abuse you are going to be very hurt, confused, sad, fearful and angry. Usually if they detect any HINT of anger they jump on that sin and ride it down to to the ground. Like A Mom stated, they LOOK for any perceived sin or short-coming so as to put the blame back on you. Instead of trying to help, they inflict even more harm, because now you are questioning yourself even more. I was shamed from the pulpit (name was never used) on several occasions. I can’t even begin to tell you the amount of damage that did to me when I was ALREADY hurting and confused. My experience has been that about 99% of the pew sitters are going to go along with whatever the pastors, elders, leaders do. They may complain amongst their circle of friends, but no one is going to challenge it. People come into the church, take their seat, serve, and go MUTE. I thought I was going crazy until I read the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, then it all made sense.

    I thank God for the internet, this blog and other blogs like this. It is a tremendous help for those who have gone through various forms of abuse to know they are not crazy, nor are they alone. These channels have enabled me to become stronger, and realize that this is NOT that way God intends for his church to operate. It is not normal, right, or healthy.

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  86. ThinkingChristian said:

    I thought I was going crazy until I read the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, then it all made sense.

    I thank God for the internet, this blog and other blogs like this. It is a tremendous help for those who have gone through various forms of abuse to know they are not crazy, nor are they alone. These channels have enabled me to become stronger, and realize that this is NOT that way God intends for his church to operate. It is not normal, right, or healthy.

    Isn’t it amazing when it finally clicks – like the light has turned on in a dark room? I’m so glad you have have that new freedom in Christ and can see the truth.

    Yea!

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  87. I hope that Chuck Smith’s successor will right the wrongs.

    That will be interesting to watch, that’s for sure. Phoenix Preacher put up an interesting post a while back about some strange dealings with big Calvary Chapel leaders. Check this out: When Doves Cry

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  88. Thanks Julie Anne! I am overwhelmingly thankful. I am relearning about the freedoms I have in Christ, and I have the strength and were with all to challenge the status quo. God has removed the scales from my eyes, and intend for them to stay off.

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  89. It’s interesting. Just yesterday something prompted me to look up the meaning of “gaslighting,” a term I had been seeing of late. Wikipedia defines it as “a form of mental abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.” According to the Wikipedia article, gaslighting can involve anything from simply denying the abuse occurred to the staging of bizarre events to disorient the victim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting.

    Then, within hours of my having familiarized myself with this concept, ThinkingChristian posted how her experience in her abusive church made her feel like she was going crazy. Likely much more was going on than just gaslighting, but it sure looks like gaslighting might have been a part of the abuse ThinkingChristian’s experienced.

    Gaslighting, it seems to me, is only one example of how abusers in churches use the same strategies as abusers everywhere. It is quite fascinating to compare the Duluth Model Domestic Violence Power and Control Wheel to the ways abuse is perpetrated in church organizations. The DV P&C Wheel is available at http://www.theduluthmodel.org/training/wheels.html. The P&C Wheel doesn’t use the term gaslighting, but it does describe some of the tactics by which gaslighting is perpetrated. It’s also interesting that it isn’t difficult to match Debbie’s hurtful postings to the P&C Wheel.

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  90. Monax, Just wanted to let you know I visited your blog and had a good read. You are doing some great work there on deconstructing hierarchy.

    It also gave me a feel for why you don’t feel ‘safe’ here. I noticed you said the same think about Phoenix Preacher’s blog. I might be wrong but I think that is one reason why Julie Anne created the forum for privacy and safety.. I could be wrong. If it makes you feel any better, I am not on the forum. :o)

    BTW: You get it so right about the hierarchy and how those verse have been totally misused. It is about functioning as servants in our gifts. The entire focus on hierarchy and how it spread West and can traced back to Augustine’s writings. People tend to read that Polycarp or so and so was a bishop and that means in control of….” No, it does not mean that. It means he was burned first or fed to the lions first.

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  91. ThinkingChristian, I Iike your moniker! Each one of us can & should think. It is not wrong to think about what & why.

    Thank you for sharing your experience here. I am upset you were spiritually abused. It is outrageous you were doubly hurt by blameshifting (and/or gaslighting), from those who denounce spiritual abuse, in all likelihood. The fine-tooth examination starts on the hurting, not the one inflicting it. And yes, blameshifting does even greater damage than we can begin to realize. It may be the real reason someone walks away. Blameshifting heaped onto the original abuse is a massive load. It’s a sophisticated, prettied-up form of adult bullying & propaganda making. And if the problem, the one hurt, walks away, the problem is gone. It’s quite effective. The hierarchy survives, is alive & well. And it becomes an example to all of what happens if anyone else sides with the one hurt or speaks up for themselves. Quite effective.

    The real kicker, IMO? Blameshifting can just devastate good people (guilt feelings over doing something right but they start questioning themselves to see if they were wrong, it was ). And evil people can go unfazed by their wrongdoing. They can ALSO blame-shift without a hint of guilt.

    I hope you know that speaking about what happened to you will help others know it’s not them, that they aren’t the problem, & they shouldn’t second guess themselves again. I’m afraid what’s happened to you is more common than we think or want to admit. And the internet is exploding. People are speaking up. Let revival of God’s people begin.

    You are not alone. There are others who have gone thru & are going thru what you did. AND there are others who care, stand for truth & right, & will support the hurting out there. May we know God & understand what loving actions are.

    Gary W, it seems we were on the same page as far as how to define this in a simple, effective way. I was led to blaemshifting & you were led to gaslighting! 🙂 BTW, blameshifting is defined by one dictionary as the act of transferring responsibility for an error or problem to another. I think it’s an appropriate word. When we can assign words to actions, it clears things up quite a bit. Gaslighting is another appropriate word. It is empowering to be able to identify & put the pieces together.

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  92. ThinkingChristian, so glad that you have joined the conversation here. You have gained many good insights, but alas, through the school of hard knocks. But you are not alone, as others have come through this type of stretching experience as well. Feeling ‘crazy’ and ‘so alone’ are two significant factors when faced with spiritual abuse and the aftermath of it. Glad that you are so much stronger now and will continue in that direction.

    Fully agree, because this is so true: “I thank God for the internet, this blog and other blogs like this. It is a tremendous help for those who have gone through various forms of abuse to know they are not crazy, nor are they alone. These channels have enabled me to become stronger, and realize that this is NOT that way God intends for his church to operate. It is not normal, right, or healthy.”

    Keep truckin’ and know that you can find care and support here.

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  93. Thanks A Mom! I choose this name because I am finally at a place were I can dissect the scriptures, and I am willing to challenge you on error no matter who you are. I don’t swallow everything the Senior Pastor says, or believe that he is always right.

    “And if the problem, the one hurt, walks away, the problem is gone. It’s quite effective. The hierarchy survives, is alive & well. And it becomes an example to all of what happens if anyone else sides with the one hurt or speaks up for themselves. Quite effective.
    I have seen this as well. Because my church doesn’t like to deal with conflicts/problems you basically have to join with them and sweep any unpleasantries under the rug. This is especially true if there are relational conflicts that could make them and/or the church look bad. We are not talking about petty nonsense, but stuff that really needs to be addressed. Things are great when everything is good, but any trouble and most folks wind up leaving the church. At first I couldn’t understand why it couldn’t be work out. But now years later, and going through my own stuff I totally get it. When I left my church nobody from the leadership called me. They knew that I was MIA and why, and was content to let it stay that way. Why not? They don’t want to address the situation or hold anyone accountable, so now that you are gone (i.e THE PROBLEM), everything can go back to normal.

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  94. Gary, I have definitely dealt with gas-lighting, blame-shifting, and a bunch more like you say. One way of blame-shifting is requiring the person to take responsibility for how they responded to what was said or done. Now in general I do believe that you shouldn’t allow any person to control your emotions and/or behaviors. However, there are some experiences that unless you are in your glorified body already, it is going to be pretty hard to not have any emotional reaction. How does a person respond to being publicly shamed from the pulpit on numerous occasions? Yes, they don’t use your name, but when it is happening you know exactly what they are doing. Why not repent and ask forgiveness of your sinful and dishonoring behavior, rather than use gas-lighting or blame-shifting tactics?

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  95. Thanks Barb! Up until a year ago I hadn’t even heard of spiritual abuse. It wasn’t until I was talking with a friend about a small portion of what I was going through that she declared it was spiritual abuse. She had heard it being discussed by a pastor on the radio, and felt it aligned with some of the stuff she was going through at her previous church. She said that one of the aspects of spiritual abuse is when the leadership of the church use the Word of God against you. It was then I was like DING! Instead of the Bible being used as a healing balm, it was being use in a very destructive manner. It was after that conversation that I took to the internet to learn all I could about the subject manner.

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  97. Hey, TC, your typo slip, ‘subject manner’ is rather appropriate since we are dealing with manners of behavior which are so troubling. Basically, what is the behavioral ‘manner’ of church leaders that is so unloving and so destructive? That is what spiritual abuse discernment deals with. 🙂

    Wondering if you have checked out my ChurchExiters.com website yet? I trust that it is helpful as well.

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  98. Speaking from the healed side of abuse, the longer you wait to mend your wounds, the harder it is to heal. Your alerts, warnings, flags, vents, rage, outrage, violations, pain, and mechanics through the weak/broken systems of human paradigms – all – have been heard. Now fielded, life gives you permission to move on with your life, and trust humanity to be stewardly (or as a Christian, trust God to guide into victories past trials). A choice, now, to not pursue healing only hurts you. Smarter to heal, than remain victim-at-large.

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  99. First and foremost, he was a human being, flesh and sinful just like the rest of us. Whatever transpired between the two of you, I’m sure stemmed from a lot of miscommunication and misunderstandings of eachother. The man has died and he will be missed by many. He was a very important man, (to me just as important as Oral Roberts and Billy Graham). I understand pride, we all have it, but this is completely disrespectful! Just as redicuous as u believe “Gods anointed ones” to be, its more rediculous for u to suggest that he brought this illness on himself…….do u honestly think that u are in Gods favor over Chuck! Wow real errogance! Sorry for being upset, but u have to understand how petty and hateful this all sounds. On a serious note…. be real careful how u speak about Gods ANOINTED ones! They do have favor!

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  100. Troll alert. Just a friendly reminder, please do not feed the trolls. They have sensitive stomachs and can’t handle mere human food.

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  101. No person is more important than any other person in the economy of the kingdom. A pastor is not special nor more important than any pew-sitter. The ground at the foot of the cross is level. When one is a pastor or seeks to lead others, he or she incurs a special obligation to be considerate, kind, loving, helpful, etc., and to not be, as Jesus said, “lording it over others.”

    There is no A list of Christians. And those who assume some position of power are already violating the command of Christ and deserve all of the approbation they receive when the mess up.

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