Pastor Chuck Smith, Founder of Calvary Chapel Churches, Dead at 86

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Alex Grenier, son of Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier shares his thoughts on the passing of Calvary Chapel founder, Chuck Smith

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Update and Disclaimer:   I’ve been getting some push back because of publishing this article the same day in which Pastor Chuck Smith died.  I understand the concern and do respect that opinion, too.  If you are visiting my blog for the first time, this place is safe haven for survivors of abuse.  An important part of what I do here is allow victims of abuse a platform to share their stories that were often not allowed to be told, were minimized, or dismissed entirely.  

This presents a dilemma to me.   On one side we have a beloved pastor, father, grandfather, friend who is now gone.  That is sad.  There are lots of wonderful memories.  Yet, is there a “right” time to air a story like this?  When is that time?  I try to put myself in the shoes of survivors and I think I can do that as a survivor myself.  What does it feel like for a survivor to hear the death of someone in a powerful position who had many opportunities to stop abuse, yet failed to do so?  

It is for those people who I have posted Alex’s article.  Alex speaks on behalf for those who have no voice.  

If you feel the timing is inappropriate, I can appreciate that, but have decided to go ahead and keep the post up.  I am doing this especially for those victims in Calvary Chapel churches who have felt abandoned.  I think it is important for them to know that if they are feeling mixed feelings about Pastor Chuck Smith’s death, they are not alone.  This blog exists for survivors.  Please feel free to skip the rest of the post if you disagree with the timing.  

This article is cross-posted by permission from Alex Grenier’s blog, Calvary Chapel Abuse.  As some of you may recall, Alex Grenier was raised by his father and Calvary Chapel pastor, Bob Grenier. I met Alex because he was following my defamation lawsuit brought on by my former pastor.  Alex, like me,  has used his blog to highlight his personal story and other stories of abuse within the Calvary Chapel franchise of churches.  Since that time, Alex has been sued by his father for defamation, etc, and is currently awaiting a lengthy appeal process with the anti-SLAPP lawsuit. I have written several articles on Alex’s situation:

I think it is very important to read Alex’s words. He has been a loud voice defending the abused and has seen the corrupt system in which abuse has been enabled among Calvary Chapel churches. He reached out to Pastor Chuck Smith for help numerous times, brought personal testimonies, etc, to no avail.  Chuck Smith essentially said his hands were tied and couldn’t help.

While many in the Christian world are mourning the loss of Chuck Smith, it is important to look at the  power this man had and what he did and did not do with it.  What does Chuck Smith represent to those abuse victims whose voices remain silenced?  ~JA

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Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel dead at 86. Daughter reports the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pastor and leader of the Calvary Chapel non-denomination has passed as a result of his battle with lung cancer.

 Chuck Smith, co-founder of the Calvary Chapel non-denomination, has died as a result of complications from a battle with lung cancer. He was 86-years-old.


Chuck Smith, co-founder of the Calvary Chapel non-denomination, has died as a result of complications from a battle with lung cancer. He was 86-years-old.

Pastor Chuck Smith of Calvary Chapel fame has died in the early morning of October 3, 2013 according to daughter Janette Smith Manderson. Chuck Smith has been battling lung cancer since he was diagnosed with it in late 2011.

My feelings are mixed.

Some of the last words I heard from Chuck Smith were his calling down God’s judgment on me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit in classic “Touch not God’s anointed!” form.

Full audio of the public rebuke and warning here:

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From Chuck Smith’s public rebuke of me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit:

“There is a young fellow…who has created a website…a blog…in which he has been attacking me and Calvary Chapel viciously because his step-father was abusive to him as he was growing up…and he is wanting to bring his step-father down. And…so because I won’t take action against his step-father…because I, really…every Calvary Chapel is independent…I’m not in control of them…nor do I want control of them…I have a hard enough time just being in control of my own ministry. And, I just don’t want to have the responsibility of having to try and control the over 1,500 Calvary Chapels we have in the United States….so he is attacking me also on the blog and saying that I’m covering up all kinds of horrible things and making a lot of accusations and all…”

“…and I called him up and invited him down [this is factually incorrect, I first called Chuck Smith at his office and then reached him live at his home]…to try and sort of make peace if possible.”

“So, I promised him I would look into the situation…and I did…and then I wrote to him a response…and I sent it to his email address…but somehow it didn’t go through. And, it was endeavor on my part for reconciliation…but the email didn’t go through…I don’t know why…and I gave it a couple shots…and it didn’t go through….so I just sort of let it go…so he became really upset that I didn’t respond to his charges and so-forth against me…”

“So I was thinking…what can I do…and how can I defend myself…against all of these charges which are false and lies…and things that he is putting out on his blogsite. As we were finishing here tonight…as I was in my final prayer…the Lord just of spoke to me and said ‘look you’re praying that you’ll learn to turn things over to the Lord…let me fight your battles…and here you’re considering how you can deal with it…just leave it with me. I thought oh yes…and so….[pause, clapping]….I’m thankful for the help of the Lord”

“…and you know, I feel sorry for the guy. BECAUSE, WHAT I COULD DO WOULDN’T HURT MUCH…BUT I TELL YOU..WHAT THE LORD WILL DO…I CAN REALLY…UM…YOU KNOW…WELL…I’M GLAD I HAVE THE LORD ON MY SIDE. “

I publicly stated on this blog after hearing that very sobering and hurtful “Touch not God’s anointed” chilling warning from the very powerful and influential Chuck Smith…something that would have rocked most people hearing that chilling warning that “God is on my side and he’ll zap  you!”…I had a feeling Chuck had called down a curse on himself, if God was in fact real, as I knew I was right in these matters.

Chuck Smith was diagnosed with Lung Cancer about a month or so after this public rebuke of me from the Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa pulpit.

I then commented publicly that I had a feeling the cancer would kill him, despite the happy and optimistic updates from his daughter and all the prayers for his healing etc…unless Chuck repented of his lying and his wrong handling of this situation and his wrong public rebuke and warning to me…when he and BG were in the wrong.

Well, the cancer has killed him and Chuck Smith died without repenting of this situation and without coming clean and without seeking reconciliation with me…other than some email that’s lost in cyberspace (according to him).

Calvary Chapel Pastors: Let this be a lesson to you. If you truly believe the “Touch not God’s anointed” garbage…if you truly believe God is “on your side” and you truly believe that critics and those who call you to accountability and responsibility are “of the devil” and that God will zap them for you….then what do you make of this situation? Coincidence? Random chance? Or did God do this as a public statement of who was right and who was wrong?

As a skeptic, I think it’s random chance and just a huge, though very very big, coincidence. I don’t think Chuck Smith or you as a Calvary Chapel pastor are “specially anointed” nor do I think that God will zap your enemies for you, etc. But, what if that dynamic is real? What if God is real and God does step in and zap folks sometimes, like Ananias and Saphira? If it’s true, then what are the odds this is coincidence? Again, I think it’s random chance, I don’t think God is active in this manner…BUT YOU AND YOUR DEAR LEADER DO and have expressed this dynamic and used this “Touch not God’s anointed” warning many times…believing that God does intervene sometimes and does punish folks sometimes in these sorts of matters.

So, what do you believe now? I’m sure the Chuck Smith “faithful” will be as skeptical as Richard Dawkins and any atheist and mark this one down as “random chance” and “coincidence” and “no connection whatsoever”…because the victim, this time, was their guy, their Dear Leader…and no way their Dear Leader could be wrong or could be lying or in sin etc. No way, not a chance.

If you embrace “Touch not God’s anointed!” as Chuck Smith both practiced and professed (see the Christianity Today article where he gives a chilling warning to the reporter and even quotes the verse about ‘touch not God’s anointed, do my prophet no harm’)….then circumstances around Chuck’s handling of the BG situation and Chuck’s subsequent cancer and death should chill you to your core.

My guess is you Calvary Chapel guys are full of s**t and you only profess a belief in spiritual things when it supports your narrative and your leaders and your business….God does all sorts of stuff in circumstances when it fits your agenda..otherwise everything is just random coincidence.

To the family of Chuck Smith, especially Chuck Smith Jr. (who is a great guy)…I’m sorry for your loss. Chuck had many good qualities. He was a mix of good and bad like we all are. He did a lot of good while he was on this planet…and unfortunately, he was also human like the rest of us and did some bad stuff as well. Net-net, I think Chuck as a man was a decent guy, not perfect, but decent. I think the position, the power, the Chuck-worship was a lot of temptation for him and I think that sort of power corrupted him over time, but he wasn’t near as bad as many others who have reached similar success. I think Chuck helped a lot of folks and I think, from what I’ve gathered, he treated you kids well and was a good husband. My beef with your Pops was the Machine he created and his propagation of particular mythology like the “Touch not God’s anointed” crap…and the Moses Model dynamic in the form of the CC pastors are “special” and privileged and God is “on their side” and will zap their enemies. That is dangerous stuff…and it’s the reason I drive this particular point home so strongly. Chuck was not “specially anointed”…he was talented. God was not on Chuck’s side, nor was he against Chuck.

Let my example dispel the myth of “Touch not God’s anointed” and Moses Model CC pastors are “special” and God is on their side. God will not zap you for questioning them and challenging them and calling their b.s. If you don’t believe that, Calvary Chapel-ites, then I must be “specially anointed” as God zapped Chuck and not me (if your theory is true). I am not specially anointed, therefore Chuck’s and Calvary Chapel’s thing is a myth. Run from it. Don’t repeat it. Let all that garbage and nonsense die with Chuck.

Wishing the family peace in their time of grief, wishing the Calvary Chapel pastor progeny of Chuck Smith repentance of their error and a new course for the future.

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223 comments on “Pastor Chuck Smith, Founder of Calvary Chapel Churches, Dead at 86

  1. No links Monax.
    J.A. I sent you e mail. Now, I am getting extremely embarrassed because… Well, you can guess.

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  2. Dang, I responded, but my comment didn’t post. Trying again.

    Thank-You Lydia! I am going to copy your words and put them on my night stand.

    May I go off thread for a bit and share that I am doing some unpacking of spiritual abuse one step at a time. I must have internalized the teaching that women were to be nice, passive, quiet & gentle in spirit, because it is very difficult for me to speak when in the company with the likes of: Sweet sincere mean women and born4battle types.
    I shut down, but I no longer cower! I am not a passive, quiet women here on the home front, my husband would attest. It is a conundrum. I believe it is because I was indoctrinated some 20ish years to not make waves at old church, in other words shut up & submit to those who are in authority over me.

    I need prayer to get over this. It is like this fear that I am going to get in trouble for how I respond, especially if I call someone out. I know that is irrational. Fallout from abuse? I think so. Thanks for listening.

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  3. Monax,

    Hopefully you will see that I felt a tad shy for sharing how I feel in speaking out… Then my comments disappear… O, boy. Sweating for nothing other than my comments went into spam. ( :

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  4. “need prayer to get over this. It is like this fear that I am going to get in trouble for how I respond, especially if I call someone out. I know that is irrational. Fallout from abuse? I think so. Thanks for listening.”

    Gail, You probably will get in “trouble” with someone at some point. It is normal to fear that. That is not irrational at all. My goodness– reading these blogs only prove it.

    But take that fear and think about it. Do you “care” if you are in trouble with someone? What would happen? What is worst case scenario. What will you really lose if you speak up or do not respond as they think you should? Is it actually worth losing?

    But it sounds to me as if you ARE getting over it. One step at a time. Just always remember how valuable you are in the Kingdom. Believe it. You are.

    God bless and yes I will pray for you as I know there are others here who will do the same.

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  5. Yay, Gail. I’m glad you chimed in! 🙂

    There are two things you said that resonate with me.

    “I was indoctrinated some 20ish years to not make waves at old church, in other words shut up & submit to those who are in authority over me.”
    “It is like this fear that I am going to get in trouble for how I respond, especially if I call someone out.”

    I understand. We are ingrained to only speak well of people in authority in churches. The repercussion for just asking a question can be awful. Silence is the rule. Questions abound & it’s hard for faith to grow stronger. But I’m happy there are so many resources out there today. Paul mentioned many excellent resources in this post that I found personally helpful:
    http://paulspassingthoughts.com/2013/07/07/taking-back-the-bible-from-christian-academia-confident-study-of-the-scriptures/

    I’d like to say this is not how the body of Christ should function. All are equally important. The janitor may question, disagree & thank, appreciate the pastor & vice versa. And all at the same time even. That’s okay. That is loving your own body.

    I see empty vessels, not energized humbled servants as leaders (who would be the first to say they’re wrong). Words have become more important than actions. Spin masters abound. However, we can be discerning. God does approve of it.

    Sweet dreams everyone!

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  6. What did I twist specifically?

    I would say the first words on your comment to the very last words of the very last comment. You twist everything into Calvinism. {JA removed sentences here.} Calvinism has nothing to do with this. Moral responsibility and victims becoming the abusers is the issue here. {JA removed sentences here.}

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  7. Ok – this is getting ugly. The last comment was over the top and I had to remove more than half of the content.

    Let’s not bring in debates from other blogs. Let’s also stick with the subject content instead of attacking people.

    Thanks!

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  8. Lydia, I begin to suspect that the presenting issues, i.e. talking so soon about the recently deceased, is not really the issue.

    Gary, it is the only issue. It is really the issue.

    Amom: When someone dies, as Chuck Smith has done, there is a right and wrong. Being a victim does not mean that you get to say and not care who you hurt. That is how a child would respond, and of course I would allow a child to speak. They are children.

    I am not saying to be silent. If I would have thought that I would not have supported Julie Anne and others who have spoken out. But there is a death here. A fresh death. A few weeks to let the family grieve is the right thing to do. Yet that has not stopped and only spurred many to speak out even more. That is when speaking out becomes wrong. When you think more of your pain than the pain of someone else who you do not agree with at there most vulnerable time, that is cruelty.

    You are all adults and while I understand the hurt, I have been there too, as an adult it does not mean there is no self control and human decency. It does not mean that a victim can do no wrong. And all they do is right. It is destructive to self and to others. Lately, victims are out of control. Running amok. I am shocked, I am concerned, not just for the victims, but those they are lashing out at and the timing as in this case. Let the family mourn, let them grieve in peace. That is my only message and yet it has caused a bigger blow up. It’s wrong. It’s horribly wrong. It makes all of you no different than the one who abused you. I don’t want those who have lost someone to be hurt and I don’t want this for you. Are you content to stay in this mode of victim or is healing a want. This is not going to heal, it is going to keep you right where you are.

    I believe in a God of love not just for you but for the grieving as well. I do believe God is in control of everything and that includes using us for further His plan. The Bible doesn’t teach an eye for an eye, but to love those who hate you. To love our enemies. Christ came with a different message which is why he was crucified. Those who hated Him and his message killed Him. But He rose again and is alive today. Belief in Him binds us to Him. We become like Him. We can’t help it. I am a Christian first and foremost. I cannot help but feel pain for this post affecting Chuck Smith’s family. Just as I couldn’t help but feel pain reading your stories.

    But when those stories become a license to destroy I cannot support that any longer. To my knowledge Chuck Smith was not a Calvinist, so this cannot be about Calvinism. I disagreed with Chuck Smith’s theology, so it can’t be that I am a fan of his. Quite the opposite actually. People were cruel when Jerry Falwell died and I spoke against that as well and anyone who knows me knows I am far from a Jerry Falwell fan. My credibility or lack of means nothing to me. I love the church and people. I hate and despise evil and abuse done to others, as has been done to you, that I have no doubt. But that does not mean that’s it’s ok to turn around and do it yourselves to someone else. Then it’s destruction and pure hate. We have enough of that in the world. Do good. That is my message. And good is not this.

    I thank Julie Anne for allowing me to speak.

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  9. Ok, I think we have beaten this subject up. There are some people who disagree with the timing of the post, some who think the post is appropriate. I’m not removing it. I think it’s appropriate considering the audience here.

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  10. “Lately, victims are out of control. Running amok. I am shocked, I am concerned”

    Blanket vague declarative statement. Who are and where are these victims running “amok”. What is running “amok”? Give examples of what you are talking about besides this blog post, please. Victims would like to know, I think.

    “Are you content to stay in this mode of victim or is healing a want. This is not going to heal, it is going to keep you right where you are. ”

    What exactly are your professional credentials to make such a statement? Exactly how much have you studied the effects of say, child rape, on an adult survivor? And can you make a blanket statement that every victim heals the same way?

    “I do believe God is in control of everything and that includes using us for further His plan.”

    Here we go. More beating up of victims in the form of: God is in control of child molestations, abuse, etc, and will use it for His plan. It is insidious.

    Talk about blaspheming the Character of God! As in: He has a plan and it includes you being abused so He can use you to further it. So, get over it. Oh yeah, and God loves you.

    Sheesh! People really believe this stuff and even teach it.

    “The Bible doesn’t teach an eye for an eye, but to love those who hate you. To love our enemies. Christ came with a different message which is why he was crucified.”

    This is where I really get confused. First of all, where on earth is an eye for an eye anywhere near the subject matter? You are claiming Julie Anne was going for vengeance in her blog post? Is that it? How can you even begin to say a blog post about Chuck Smiths legacy concerning Alex’ situation is the same as what Chuck did? How is that an “eye for an eye”?

    You called it vengeance earlier. That is the same as believing any seeking of truth or speaking of truth is vengeance.

    If the abuser and those who protect the abuser are long time professing Christians in ministry, are they enemies? Are they brothers and sisters in Christ of the abused? How does that work in your construct?

    “But when those stories become a license to destroy I cannot support that any longer”

    Not sure why your support is important to anyone but I will ask what exactly victims of a deceased person might be destroying. Truth? Destroy truth? .You are literally pitting the worth of the remaining family members to the worth of the victims. It should not work that way. Truth should be the focus.

    Discussing how it affects victims when their abuser or those who protected and promoted their abuser when that person dies is VERY appropriate. May we all learn from it and maybe even some repent and do the right thing now while they can.

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  11. “Then it’s destruction and pure hate. We have enough of that in the world. Do good. That is my message. And good is not this.”

    And Debbie, this makes NO sense in light of what you claim you believe and I have seen you declare over and over on other blogs. You believe NO ONE CAN DO GOOD. Remember? All are totally depraved with wicked hearts. We are unable to do good, remember? Jesus did it for us on the Cross.

    Your only recourse is to ask God if it is in HIs plan already to force those people He chose way before Adam sinned, to do good. God is controlling us 24/7, remember? We have no volition in any of it.

    I will never understand why you guys don’t live out what you believe and tell others is truth of how God operates. Is it because it does not work in practical application? I have come to the conclusion that is the reason. . See, if you lived out what you say you believe, you could not rebuke others for anything because as you have said above….it is all part of God’s plan. We don’t really have any input at all. That makes every single comment you have written here, moot.

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  12. Debbie, the following language from your post here is ABUSIVE of the victims: “It makes all of you no different than the one who abused you.” If that is your opinion your are and ABUSER of the victims, and insisting on your right to ABUSE them. Please stop. If the family goes to a survivor site and sees what is there, that is either because of their own ignorance or because they were abused by the deceased too.

    I am sick of the abuse of the abused by someone who should know better. And you just keep beating them up here. Please stop, get on your knees, beg forgiveness for your hard heart, and apologize

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  13. Debbie, Please stop. You are repeating yourself. Your accusations are painful. I wish you would have as much compassion for those of us who have been wrecked by abuse as you do for the Smith family. We are real here, bleeding. Do you understand or care that you are using your tongue as a razor blade to slice us to pieces?

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  14. I have another perspective. I’m grateful Debbie tells us her true opinions. I’m glad she’s true to herself & us. I’m glad JA lets us see her comments. JA’s blog is proving itself to be a safe place & I hope it will continue to be as time goes on. A spiritual abuse blog, if it truly defends & exists for the hurting, can be a place where a hurting person watches as they are protected, defended, & stood up for. Possibly for the first time. THEY are the agenda.

    This is what they desperately need to see in the body of Christ. To experience this love from others, to know they are not alone, to be supported may even help restore faith. It may be healing. It may bring a ray of hope. It may bring some peace. Better sleep at night. All happening without one word from them, if they so choose. And eventually, they may cross a bridge & say something here someday. They are that loved. 🙂

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  15. My Observations:
    1. It is okay to disagree on this issue, IMO. Waiting is the issue. For both sides to discuss why & why not without getting bent out of shape. Why can we do that? It is a matter of opinion, not sin. As long as neither side forces their opinion on the other, it’s okay to not agree on this. All can express the whys of their opinion & all opinion is valued. we can read or sit this post out, & know we are always welcome. All in brotherly/sisterly love. This is true unity.
    2. Debbie’s opinion crosses the line into condemnation & rebuke of anyone writing anything negative about this pastor’s life because of timing. She is insisting, demanding that to not wait is to sin. And she’s saying it is grave, horrid sin. She says it’s sin equal to & on par with the wrong-doing of the abuser. This false accusation crosses the line & is unacceptable. It is wrong & needs to be corrected. This is what destroys unity.

    Bottom line, we need to know what is sin & wrong-doing & always stand up to that without negotiation. Opinions on the other hand we are free to have & we can respectfully disagree with each other. We don’t force opinions on others. That’s a red flag.

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  16. Why did I ask Debbie to keep going in an earlier comment? To tell us more?

    So we can learn while in a safe place. This is a rare opportunity we don’t typically have in everyday life. It’s a case study on “things are not always what they appear” in real time. Damage control, spin, PR run many churches… even the small ones. The chances are that someone hurt will go to a NICE person (pastor/elder/fellow pew-sitting Christian) who they think will help them, only to find out that they won’t, are HUGE. And that’s devastating. The reality is there are many who look the part, say & insist they defend truth & right action, while siding with the unrepentant abuser subtly. Subtly how? They will look for some perceived wrong or sin in the hurting & then focus on it and/or say it’s the same. This is a red flag.

    It’s terrible reality & doubly damaging because the hurting will rack themselves over it. The wrong-doer sinner suddenly becomes them, they have now switched places. I want to say to do this to a hurting person is evil, that’s how strongly I feel about it. If someone or a church does this to you in your life, you have every right to stay away from them. Period. You can walk away for a time or for good. You don’t need to answer to anyone.

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  17. Should someone “pretty up”, “put a filter on it”, “go on the down-low” with their real opinions?

    I understand the damage that Debbie is doing here. It’s not acceptable. But I can’t tell her to “pretty up” because that makes her harder to distinguish. It bothers me too. It is a catch 22, a no-win situation when dealing with the likes. And this is about more than Debbie. For me, I’d rather know where someone stands, no matter how painful that knowledge is, so I know the real them, so I can be wise & make good choices. The more I know, the better off I am in the long run.

    As much as racism, gender discrimination, spiritual abuse, physical abuse is awful… I’d rather a person be upfront about it than to be on the down-low about it. They may be ignorant & that can be fixed, they can learn & change. Praise God. But once I know someone is crystal clear & intentional, with an agenda & shouts it from the rooftops repeatedly (it’s not a matter of ignorance or being uneducated), I try to be cautious about telling them how to behave. They may just learn to disguise themselves & appear like something they are not. We may not realize, but we may be encouraging or teaching them to go underground. We can’t make them change. They decide. The best thing that can happen is that they’re outed. The best thing that can happen is to know who is who.

    After an appeal for right is made & rejected, there is no longer an excuse. I don’t feel comfortable teaching that person what right looks like, they already know & they’ve rejected it. We are all adults here, this is a spiritual abuse blog, they know better (we aren’t depraved or unable to get it, we can chose right). I’m more interested to see what these ones really think & why. And I am putting the pieces together. Why are some swept under the rug in a church of all places? IMO, it’s for the hierarchy. Hierarchy alone is the silent & not so silent chant that I see over & over. I am getting an education here.

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  18. “For me, I’d rather know where someone stands, no matter how painful that knowledge is, so I know the real them, so I can be wise & make good choices. The more I know, the better off I am in the long run.”

    Excellent point. So true.

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  19. A Mom said:

    JA’s blog is proving itself to be a safe place & I hope it will continue to be as time goes on. A spiritual abuse blog, if it truly defends & exists for the hurting, can be a place where a hurting person watches as they are protected, defended, & stood up for. Possibly for the first time. THEY are the agenda.

    I learned something wonderful when I was part of a process group years ago. I learned that if the group is healthy, others within the group will speak up and identify problems they see. A lot of people challenged me privately when I allowed Fred Butler to engage here. I knew that there were voices who would challenge him – – which help others to realize that it is okay to challenge church leaders – to ask questions, to even disagree with them. When people feel they are safe, they do start using their voices. It’s been wonderful to watch this process with a number of the regulars here.

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  20. Fwiw, and I don’t want to be a lightning rod of hostility, so I reluctantly comment, but I haven’t considered SSB a safe place for months now. Consider in your own hearts how it’s hardly safe for me to even say it’s no longer a safe community, that’s how unhealthy the environment is here.

    Safe, of course, is always relative to the boundaries defined. SSB may act as a safety zone for some, but it certainly isn’t (in my personal opinion) a spiritually healthy community.

    Also, I haven’t felt at home here for months. And that’s sad, because ja’blog was once my home for over a year.

    Please I sincerely ask—just consider my thoughts and feelings without expecting me to go into details, or to answer for myself (as some of the most strident voices here demand ppl do). I already feel beat up in anticipation of posting such a comment.

    grace and peace

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  21. “Please I sincerely ask—just consider my thoughts and feelings without expecting me to go into details, or to answer for myself (as some of the most strident voices here demand ppl do). I already feel beat up in anticipation of posting such a comment. ”

    How can anyone here know what to censor in their own comments if you don’t give us some idea of what is not safe for you?

    What would you consider spiritually healthy? Can you give us some clue as to what you mean? Many people have different ideas of what that constitutes spiritual health.

    Not sure how anyone can help if we have no ideas what mean. I guess that means I am a strident voice but not sure how anyone can operate in an environment where some think it not safe or spiritually healthy but not say how or why? Is that really fair?

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  22. monax/David,

    I really appreciate your letting us know you haven’t felt safe here for awhile. I had been noticing your absence, and I am wondering if I might be part of the reason. Some people (not you of course) have come here lecturing and condemning, and I have pushed back and pushed back hard. Sometimes I pushed back at the theology that seemed to me to be driving their aggression. In taking aim at what appeared to me to be these people’s theology-driven antagonism, I fear I may have incidentally and unintentionally caught you in my line of fire.

    If and to the extent I have been part of your discomfort (if that is the right word), I am deeply distressed. I hold you in the highest regard. I consider it the highest of compliments that somebody with your scholarly achievement has condescended to engage me in some conversations where I was no more than a child presuming to engage the great master (not to be confused with the Great Master, of course).

    I am tempted to address what I suspect might be the issues, but will not do so for fear of completely missing the mark. Therefore, I invite you to register your complaints, at least insofar as I have been a cause of offense. If you wish to do so publicly, that is fine. Otherwise you have my email address. Whether or not you wish to use it to register complaints, please do continue to feel free to email me.

    Thank you, David, for being a friend.

    Like

  23. “The chances are that someone hurt will go to a NICE person (pastor/elder/fellow pew-sitting Christian) who they think will help them, only to find out that they won’t, are HUGE. And that’s devastating. The reality is there are many who look the part, say & insist they defend truth & right action, while siding with the unrepentant abuser subtly. Subtly how? They will look for some perceived wrong or sin in the hurting & then focus on it and/or say it’s the same. ”

    100% agree with this. Why? Because it happened to me in regards to my spiritual abuse within the church. I found out (the hard way) that because Christians idolize pastors and churches, the pastor is going to be right, even when he may be dead wrong. If the person has been pastoring the same church for decades, no one is going to go against him. Those who do find the courage to challenge are quickly shut down, and may even lose their job/position (in the most spiritualized way of course). Jeff Vanvonderen said that people shut up and call it unity, and no truer words have been spoken.

    Usually when you go through any form of abuse you are going to be very hurt, confused, sad, fearful and angry. Usually if they detect any HINT of anger they jump on that sin and ride it down to to the ground. Like A Mom stated, they LOOK for any perceived sin or short-coming so as to put the blame back on you. Instead of trying to help, they inflict even more harm, because now you are questioning yourself even more. I was shamed from the pulpit (name was never used) on several occasions. I can’t even begin to tell you the amount of damage that did to me when I was ALREADY hurting and confused. My experience has been that about 99% of the pew sitters are going to go along with whatever the pastors, elders, leaders do. They may complain amongst their circle of friends, but no one is going to challenge it. People come into the church, take their seat, serve, and go MUTE. I thought I was going crazy until I read the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, then it all made sense.

    I thank God for the internet, this blog and other blogs like this. It is a tremendous help for those who have gone through various forms of abuse to know they are not crazy, nor are they alone. These channels have enabled me to become stronger, and realize that this is NOT that way God intends for his church to operate. It is not normal, right, or healthy.

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  24. ThinkingChristian said:

    I thought I was going crazy until I read the Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, then it all made sense.

    I thank God for the internet, this blog and other blogs like this. It is a tremendous help for those who have gone through various forms of abuse to know they are not crazy, nor are they alone. These channels have enabled me to become stronger, and realize that this is NOT that way God intends for his church to operate. It is not normal, right, or healthy.

    Isn’t it amazing when it finally clicks – like the light has turned on in a dark room? I’m so glad you have have that new freedom in Christ and can see the truth.

    Yea!

    Like

  25. I hope that Chuck Smith’s successor will right the wrongs.

    That will be interesting to watch, that’s for sure. Phoenix Preacher put up an interesting post a while back about some strange dealings with big Calvary Chapel leaders. Check this out: When Doves Cry

    Like

  26. Thanks Julie Anne! I am overwhelmingly thankful. I am relearning about the freedoms I have in Christ, and I have the strength and were with all to challenge the status quo. God has removed the scales from my eyes, and intend for them to stay off.

    Like

  27. It’s interesting. Just yesterday something prompted me to look up the meaning of “gaslighting,” a term I had been seeing of late. Wikipedia defines it as “a form of mental abuse in which false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.” According to the Wikipedia article, gaslighting can involve anything from simply denying the abuse occurred to the staging of bizarre events to disorient the victim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting.

    Then, within hours of my having familiarized myself with this concept, ThinkingChristian posted how her experience in her abusive church made her feel like she was going crazy. Likely much more was going on than just gaslighting, but it sure looks like gaslighting might have been a part of the abuse ThinkingChristian’s experienced.

    Gaslighting, it seems to me, is only one example of how abusers in churches use the same strategies as abusers everywhere. It is quite fascinating to compare the Duluth Model Domestic Violence Power and Control Wheel to the ways abuse is perpetrated in church organizations. The DV P&C Wheel is available at http://www.theduluthmodel.org/training/wheels.html. The P&C Wheel doesn’t use the term gaslighting, but it does describe some of the tactics by which gaslighting is perpetrated. It’s also interesting that it isn’t difficult to match Debbie’s hurtful postings to the P&C Wheel.

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  28. Monax, Just wanted to let you know I visited your blog and had a good read. You are doing some great work there on deconstructing hierarchy.

    It also gave me a feel for why you don’t feel ‘safe’ here. I noticed you said the same think about Phoenix Preacher’s blog. I might be wrong but I think that is one reason why Julie Anne created the forum for privacy and safety.. I could be wrong. If it makes you feel any better, I am not on the forum. :o)

    BTW: You get it so right about the hierarchy and how those verse have been totally misused. It is about functioning as servants in our gifts. The entire focus on hierarchy and how it spread West and can traced back to Augustine’s writings. People tend to read that Polycarp or so and so was a bishop and that means in control of….” No, it does not mean that. It means he was burned first or fed to the lions first.

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  29. ThinkingChristian, I Iike your moniker! Each one of us can & should think. It is not wrong to think about what & why.

    Thank you for sharing your experience here. I am upset you were spiritually abused. It is outrageous you were doubly hurt by blameshifting (and/or gaslighting), from those who denounce spiritual abuse, in all likelihood. The fine-tooth examination starts on the hurting, not the one inflicting it. And yes, blameshifting does even greater damage than we can begin to realize. It may be the real reason someone walks away. Blameshifting heaped onto the original abuse is a massive load. It’s a sophisticated, prettied-up form of adult bullying & propaganda making. And if the problem, the one hurt, walks away, the problem is gone. It’s quite effective. The hierarchy survives, is alive & well. And it becomes an example to all of what happens if anyone else sides with the one hurt or speaks up for themselves. Quite effective.

    The real kicker, IMO? Blameshifting can just devastate good people (guilt feelings over doing something right but they start questioning themselves to see if they were wrong, it was ). And evil people can go unfazed by their wrongdoing. They can ALSO blame-shift without a hint of guilt.

    I hope you know that speaking about what happened to you will help others know it’s not them, that they aren’t the problem, & they shouldn’t second guess themselves again. I’m afraid what’s happened to you is more common than we think or want to admit. And the internet is exploding. People are speaking up. Let revival of God’s people begin.

    You are not alone. There are others who have gone thru & are going thru what you did. AND there are others who care, stand for truth & right, & will support the hurting out there. May we know God & understand what loving actions are.

    Gary W, it seems we were on the same page as far as how to define this in a simple, effective way. I was led to blaemshifting & you were led to gaslighting! 🙂 BTW, blameshifting is defined by one dictionary as the act of transferring responsibility for an error or problem to another. I think it’s an appropriate word. When we can assign words to actions, it clears things up quite a bit. Gaslighting is another appropriate word. It is empowering to be able to identify & put the pieces together.

    Like

  30. ThinkingChristian, so glad that you have joined the conversation here. You have gained many good insights, but alas, through the school of hard knocks. But you are not alone, as others have come through this type of stretching experience as well. Feeling ‘crazy’ and ‘so alone’ are two significant factors when faced with spiritual abuse and the aftermath of it. Glad that you are so much stronger now and will continue in that direction.

    Fully agree, because this is so true: “I thank God for the internet, this blog and other blogs like this. It is a tremendous help for those who have gone through various forms of abuse to know they are not crazy, nor are they alone. These channels have enabled me to become stronger, and realize that this is NOT that way God intends for his church to operate. It is not normal, right, or healthy.”

    Keep truckin’ and know that you can find care and support here.

    Like

  31. Thanks A Mom! I choose this name because I am finally at a place were I can dissect the scriptures, and I am willing to challenge you on error no matter who you are. I don’t swallow everything the Senior Pastor says, or believe that he is always right.

    “And if the problem, the one hurt, walks away, the problem is gone. It’s quite effective. The hierarchy survives, is alive & well. And it becomes an example to all of what happens if anyone else sides with the one hurt or speaks up for themselves. Quite effective.
    I have seen this as well. Because my church doesn’t like to deal with conflicts/problems you basically have to join with them and sweep any unpleasantries under the rug. This is especially true if there are relational conflicts that could make them and/or the church look bad. We are not talking about petty nonsense, but stuff that really needs to be addressed. Things are great when everything is good, but any trouble and most folks wind up leaving the church. At first I couldn’t understand why it couldn’t be work out. But now years later, and going through my own stuff I totally get it. When I left my church nobody from the leadership called me. They knew that I was MIA and why, and was content to let it stay that way. Why not? They don’t want to address the situation or hold anyone accountable, so now that you are gone (i.e THE PROBLEM), everything can go back to normal.

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  32. Gary, I have definitely dealt with gas-lighting, blame-shifting, and a bunch more like you say. One way of blame-shifting is requiring the person to take responsibility for how they responded to what was said or done. Now in general I do believe that you shouldn’t allow any person to control your emotions and/or behaviors. However, there are some experiences that unless you are in your glorified body already, it is going to be pretty hard to not have any emotional reaction. How does a person respond to being publicly shamed from the pulpit on numerous occasions? Yes, they don’t use your name, but when it is happening you know exactly what they are doing. Why not repent and ask forgiveness of your sinful and dishonoring behavior, rather than use gas-lighting or blame-shifting tactics?

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  33. Thanks Barb! Up until a year ago I hadn’t even heard of spiritual abuse. It wasn’t until I was talking with a friend about a small portion of what I was going through that she declared it was spiritual abuse. She had heard it being discussed by a pastor on the radio, and felt it aligned with some of the stuff she was going through at her previous church. She said that one of the aspects of spiritual abuse is when the leadership of the church use the Word of God against you. It was then I was like DING! Instead of the Bible being used as a healing balm, it was being use in a very destructive manner. It was after that conversation that I took to the internet to learn all I could about the subject manner.

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  34. Hey, TC, your typo slip, ‘subject manner’ is rather appropriate since we are dealing with manners of behavior which are so troubling. Basically, what is the behavioral ‘manner’ of church leaders that is so unloving and so destructive? That is what spiritual abuse discernment deals with. 🙂

    Wondering if you have checked out my ChurchExiters.com website yet? I trust that it is helpful as well.

    Like

  35. Speaking from the healed side of abuse, the longer you wait to mend your wounds, the harder it is to heal. Your alerts, warnings, flags, vents, rage, outrage, violations, pain, and mechanics through the weak/broken systems of human paradigms – all – have been heard. Now fielded, life gives you permission to move on with your life, and trust humanity to be stewardly (or as a Christian, trust God to guide into victories past trials). A choice, now, to not pursue healing only hurts you. Smarter to heal, than remain victim-at-large.

    Like

  36. First and foremost, he was a human being, flesh and sinful just like the rest of us. Whatever transpired between the two of you, I’m sure stemmed from a lot of miscommunication and misunderstandings of eachother. The man has died and he will be missed by many. He was a very important man, (to me just as important as Oral Roberts and Billy Graham). I understand pride, we all have it, but this is completely disrespectful! Just as redicuous as u believe “Gods anointed ones” to be, its more rediculous for u to suggest that he brought this illness on himself…….do u honestly think that u are in Gods favor over Chuck! Wow real errogance! Sorry for being upset, but u have to understand how petty and hateful this all sounds. On a serious note…. be real careful how u speak about Gods ANOINTED ones! They do have favor!

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  37. Troll alert. Just a friendly reminder, please do not feed the trolls. They have sensitive stomachs and can’t handle mere human food.

    Like

  38. No person is more important than any other person in the economy of the kingdom. A pastor is not special nor more important than any pew-sitter. The ground at the foot of the cross is level. When one is a pastor or seeks to lead others, he or she incurs a special obligation to be considerate, kind, loving, helpful, etc., and to not be, as Jesus said, “lording it over others.”

    There is no A list of Christians. And those who assume some position of power are already violating the command of Christ and deserve all of the approbation they receive when the mess up.

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  39. be real careful how u speak about Gods ANOINTED ones! They do have favor!

    No name: This is also taking scripture out of context and I would challenge you to read the whole chapter as to who this is specifically referring to. It was used only in the Old Testament and not ever in the New. The New Testament does interpret the Old. This passage is not speaking of anyone today. It is specifically speaking about the Kings of Israel and Israel. It is also speaking of doing physical harm.

    Paul nor Christ nor any New Testament writer never said “Touch not God’s anointed.” It is not applicable. We as Christians are all the same in God’s sight. We are all equal. To say this is to wrongly interpret scripture.

    I would have said what I said above regardless of who I died. It’s just the right way to respond, considering it was the day Chuck Smith died. To set aside anger to let the family grieve a loved one who was not a public figure to them, but a husband, father, grandfather.

    The way this passage is used by you is a way of control and elevating leaders to a height. A height that God never meant to elevate anyone, especially if you read Paul’s description of himself, he never thought himself better than those who he was writing to. In fact, quite the opposite.

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  40. Who are the Lord’s anointed? Whoever John is speaking to when he says, “But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. (1 John 2:20, ESV). I am confident this applies to all true believers.

    Who are the antichrists of whom John speaks in the very next verse? I cannot say with certainty, but they may well include some, if not all, who elevate themselves over the rest of us. Be very, very careful when dealing with any “Christian” who appeals to authority to impose their views and their agendas. Run, run from those who would claim authority, privilege and anointing based on something called the Moses Model. They are Nicolaitans.

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  41. Debbie

    Much agreement when you say to no name…
    “The way this passage is used by you (And those who taught you this error.)
    is a “Way Of Control” and elevating leaders.”

    Yes – Pastor who Abuse – Pastors addicted to Exercising Authority….
    Love to say they are “God’s Annointed Ones” to CONTROL folks and…
    “Lord it over God’s heritage.” A No, No. 1 Pet 5:3 KJV

    And this tactic works well to create fear – To silence those who disagree. – I believed that lie. Some were special, “God’s Annointed Ones.” And it kept me silent. It took me quite a few years to realize they were NOT special – They were just wrong and CONTROLLING.

    And I was striving to be one of them. Oy Vey!!!

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  42. no name

    You write…
    “be real careful how u speak about Gods ANOINTED ones!”

    Have you ever considered that ALL believers have received an annointing?
    And – You, no name, are special to God, and also have an annointing?

    1 John 2:20 NKJV
    But you have an ANNOINTING from the Holy One,
    And you know all things.

    1 John 2:26-27 KJV
    These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
    But THE ANNOINTING which ye have received of him abideth IN YOU,
    **and ye need not that any man teach you:**
    but as the same ANNOINTING teacheth you of all things…

    Col 1:27 KJV
    To whom God would make known
    what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
    which is **Christ in you,** the hope of glory:

    And, Christ here is the Greek – Christos = Which means ANNOINTED.

    So, no name…
    “be real careful how u speak about Gods ANOINTED ones!”

    You self included… 😉

    Like

  43. Gary W

    I think I’m in ageement when you write…
    “Who are the antichrists of whom John speaks in the very next verse? I cannot say with certainty, but they may well include some, if not all, “Who Elevate Themselves” over the rest of us.”

    Because – “AntiChrist” in Thayers = means adversary of the messiah…
    And “Anti” in Thayers not only means against, opposite of…
    “Anti” – Also, means “instead of,” in place of…

    AntiChrist could also mean – “Instead of Christ.”

    And – Time and time again, those “Who Elevate Themselves” do that…
    By taking a “Title/Position” that belongs only to Jesus, in the Bible…

    shepherd/leader/reverend

    And “Elevate Themselves” over us lowly sheeples – and divide the brethran.

    And folks wind up looking to a Mere Fallible Human – as ‘Their” shepherd.
    “Instead of Jesus Christ” – as “Their” Shepherd – The Good Shepherd.

    And a human, who calls them self shepherd…
    becomes an “AntiChrist” = “Instead of Christ.”

    And “Their” human shepherds – lead them astray…

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **Their** shepherds have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  44. “To set aside anger to let the family grieve a loved one who was not a public figure to them, but a husband, father, grandfather. ”

    Who are you accusing of “anger”?

    You cannot let it go, Debbie. You may think the blog post “inappropriate” but to accuse people of being “angry” is OTT.

    Like

  45. “Touch not the Lord’s anointed” comes from David concerning bad king Saul and it does not map to pastors today. It is more political than it is spiritual.

    “Who are the Lord’s anointed? Whoever John is speaking to when he says, “But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. (1 John 2:20, ESV). I am confident this applies to all true believers.”

    Gary beat me to it as usual but this passage and many others describe ALL believers as part of the “priesthood” and ironically there is NO laity in the NT concerning believers. ALL are “minsters” (priests)

    (Ironically, 1 John goes on to say “you need no one to teach you”. Who is he talking to? Who is the letter written to?)

    There is no caste system in the Body of Christ. It is just that functions such as elders/bishops would burn first or be fed to the lions first because they would be the biggest servants to the body.

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  46. I’ve only ever heard “Touch not the Lord’s anointed” quoted as defense and self justification. I know I talk too much. sorry 🙂

    Like

  47. If you would like to know a little more about the private life of Chuck Smith watch this:

    I really liked it. I watched it twice.

    Like

  48. Not once in the audio did he say “Touch not God’s anointed” you are angry and making things up perhaps your issue with your step father is true call the police there is no statute of limitation on sex crimes. the man was 85 years old and was extremely busy that’s like asking Obama to take time off and be your personal detective for you why are you harassing an old man go after your step dad legally.

    Like

  49. rob, I didn’t read Alex’s article as saying that Chuck Smith literally said “Touch not God’s anointed,” only that Smith communicated the moral equivalent. Your comment is ill advised, insensitive to the point of being cold hearted, and abusive. May you never be abandoned by supposedly Christian leaders in your time of need.

    You may wish to go back and read what I posted on October 4 at 9:13 AM.

    Like

  50. Thanks other Gary for that confirmation. To say that rob has been disingenuous is to put it very, very politely.

    Like

  51. A dear precious friend copied the part of Debbie’s comment about me that JA deleted and sent it to me. It was not JA.

    For anyone who read Debbie’s comment to me before part if it was deleted should be aware that Debbie was well aware from our exchanges in the past that I grew up around Muslims as my mom had a hospitality ministry at the University specifically for them. Many precious Muslim souls were in and out of our home for years. I have also volunteered with Muslim refugees….with Catholics! I have also studied the Qu’ran in a study group. I am no expert but have quite a bit of experience with those cultures from Jordan, Iran, Iraq, SA, Somalia, Turkey and Afghanistan. Each are unique yet similar in some ways when it comes to cultural Islam.

    Debbie has confused “hating” Muslims/Islam with “understanding” the often confusing cultural nuances that she interpreted as “hate”. But since she has deleted her blog we cannot check facts concerning my comments there years back and how I tried to explain such nuances then.

    Far from hating Catholics, my best friend and her husband are Catholic. This past summer on a trip together we attended Mass with them 2x.

    Thanks. I felt I could not let it stand for those who read the comment before it was deleted. It was an unfair characterization. And quite frankly, it hurt.

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  52. Not once in the audio did he say “Touch not God’s anointed” you are angry and making things up perhaps your issue with your step father is true call the police there is no statute of limitation on sex crimes.

    Semantics, Semantics, Semantics.
    Because he didn’t say The Exact Words, YOU ARE A LIAR! LIAR! LIAR!

    Like the Tsars of Russia, abolishing the death penalty and substituting 1000 lashes with the Knout (50 being enough to kill). But they could point to the letter of the law and say “Russia has no death penalty.” Or the other Tsar who said “Is no slavery in Russia — here we call it Serfdom.”

    Note also the passive-aggressive blame-shift “You are angry (unlike MEEEEEE) and making things up (unlike MEEEEEEE)”. You’re the one with the problem, not MEEEEEEEE. (I grew up with this kind of semantics and gaslighting on a regular basis.)

    Like

  53. Julie Anne: You are so right to post this. Debbie Kaufman is so TOTALLY WRONG. Thank you for the Attorney guy, you’re wonderful also. Chuck Smith Sr. Has been corrected for over 30 years hardcore on his Dogma, lies and abuses and lack of correcting child molestation in HIS evil regime Look at the EVIL of his email, whatever Sr. did and said to Alex Grenier a month before he died and still NO help and taking responsibility for child abuse and woman wanting to be punching bags=battered wives.

    I’ve heard YEARS of horrific stories. Ask Smith Sr. second in command years ago that was forced to resign for taking stand on helping battered woman and Sr. forced his resignation. His EVIL regime gave advice when single parents were at the end of their rope and hope and we’re given advice to where they killed themselves (Debbie and Nancy are dead and what about their children and families?) and HOW MANY MORE LIKE?

    Debbie Kaufman, I’d like to see you do a documentary on all the men, women and children that Sr.’s evil regime gave wrong advice to and did NOT HELP them whatsoever and now have hatred for church/leadership and God because he did NOT exemplify his attributes whatsoever of a loving father that helps, provides, nutures, enhances you to Jesus Christ etc. Know someone who took Tracy, Laura, Chris, Cheryl, Ruth, Mary, Steve, Linda, Perry and so many true stories of Calvary Chapel abuses public to the media and major heads of church leadership to NO avail (meaning complicit and part of the rat pack). Chuck Smith Sr. fruit or lack thereof will come out in his hatred of the family and people in general (women/children especially=male children in that group). Look at the Los Angeles Times articles in archives along with all Blogs exposing corruption. What does Smith Jr. know about Dad and his hypocrisy that the public should know, read L.A. Times articles, “Father, Son and Holy Rift, 2006 and God’s word, plus static-the Calvary radio empire , built by partners in Christian evangelism, is sundered by accusations over sex, money and control” -Febuary 28, 2007 by Christopher Goffard. Also, Ross Institute, do OVER eighty hours of abuse reads on CC in news articles, Blogs, Christianity Today etc.

    CC Wanting children to be molested and wives to be battered if being like Pontius Pilate and telling wives that they wanted to be abused or doing something wrong for them to be abused. Consider Smith Sr. A pretty sick SOB. Some writer in O.C. Weekly wants to take the time and really delve in this Evil Dynasty and it’s leadership. Hope he puts that to action and not just dead verbiage. To the day I die I will consider Chuck Smith Sr., a warlock and will NEVER change my mind. Read James Lloyd’s books, better yet call him up and ask him why he thinks Sr., is a liar. Do your research and don’t be a so called Christian that is brainwashed and can’t think for yourself, do your homework.

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