9Marks, Leaving the Church, Meetings with the Pastor, Shunning, Spiritual Abuse

9Marks, Spiritual Abuse, and How Church Members Can Fall Through the Cracks

Julie Anne

*     *     *

Yesterday, I shared the a comment that I had posted on SharperIron.org forum.  From my limited times there, I gather there are quite a few pastors.  We were discussing 9Marks practices.  Chip asked me to elaborate after reading my comment:

I’ve read some of the 9Marks writings and some of these ideas are troublesome to me.  I am concerned that while the basic principles may seem to work as a guideline for good and decent shepherds, they also may give license to those pastors who are heavy-handed in authority and ruling over their congregants.    We need to be wise in turning to core values in the Bible, not core values of Dever and 9Marks – just sayin’.

I explained one bothersome aspect in yesterday’s article, 9Marks:  Church Authority over Church Members.

Below is the second part of my response to Chip.   Instead of answering his question with a short logical answer, I wanted him and other readers to have an understanding of what some of us have gone through, to have the eyes to see through a personal story (even if it is made up).  This story is a combination of my story and many stories I read.    It’s not a profound, in fact, it was typed up quickly as a comment and so is not “polished.”  You might find parts of your story tucked in there.  I didn’t get much of a response from this story at the site, but at least it’s giving these folks something to think about regarding spiritual abuse.

*     *     *

*     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *

medium_15776318

*     *     *

So now, let me explain why I have problems with the 9Marks brand of church membership, discipline, changing churches.  I’d like to explain in story form.

Patty is a single, middle-aged woman going to a church with a bona fide spiritually abusive pastor.  She had difficulty with some of the teachings at church and questioned an elder.  The elder told the pastor about it (elders are instructed to tell the pastor of any kind of ‘dissension” among the ranks).

Patty’s church is an independent church. Her church is connected with 9Marks.  Her pastor has two elders, but they are yes-men (truth be told, they are afraid of the pastor).  They have never questioned him or challenged him on anything they have seen over the many years they have served as elders.  They remain silent on any issues of concern.

The pastor has no one over him to hold him accountable.  He is spiritually abusive, twists scripture in order to gain more authority over members, and uses his authority in ways that are intrusive in the private lives of church members.   Patty decides that she must leave and so she quietly leaves Grace Church and finds Pastor Nate’s church.

Pastor Nate’s church is part of 9Marks and knowing the guidelines set up by 9Marks, he appropriately asks Patty which church she recently left.  She tells Nate, “Grace Church, from across town.”  Nate knows the pastor of Grace Church.  He’s a likable guy.  Pastor Nate has run into him at various events in town and knows him by name.  He had recently seen him at his son’s soccer game, but they were supporting opposing teams, so they waved to each other as they passed the concession stand.

When Patty tells Pastor Nate that she left Grace Church, Pastor Nate tells her she must go back and tie up loose ends at Grace Church before he will allow her to stay at his church.  Patty then reluctantly tells Pastor Nate that her pastor from Grace Church was spiritually abusive.  She really had hoped to not bring that subject up.

Pastor Nate doesn’t know Patty, but he’s known the Grace Church pastor casually for 5 years.  Surely this could not be.  This pastor couldn’t be spiritually abusive.  There surely is a misunderstanding.

Who is Pastor Nate going to believe?  Patty, whom he doesn’t know from Adam, or the pastor whom Pastor Nate has known casually for 5 years?  Most likely Pastor Nate will believe the pastor, after all, both churches are connected and committed to the 9Marks practices, so the Grace Church pastor can’t be that bad, right?

What does Patty do now?   Patty is having a hard time trusting anyone in church authority at this point, but she knows the Bible tells her she needs to be meeting regularly.  She likes Pastor Nate and his church.  It is solid biblically and it feels safe to her.  She wants to stay there, but Pastor Nate says she must go back to Grace Church.

Patty thinks to herself that maybe the spiritual abuse was in her head (spiritual abuse victims often justify the abuser’s behavior – similar to a domestic violence victim).  She convinces herself that maybe she does need to repent of her sins with the pastor at Grace Church (Patty hasn’t sinned, she’s been spiritually abused.  Victims often unknowingly set themselves up to re-victimize themselves.)

She goes back to Grace Church.   Now, because the pastor found out that she left his church and went to Pastor Nate’s church, she is put into church discipline for not following the proper membership rules (sanctioned by 9Marks).  She is excommunicated and shunned by the church members (the pastor sometimes stretches the rules)- and all of her friends she has had for the last 8 years abandon her.  She is completely alone.

Where can Patty go now?  If she goes back to see Pastor Nate, he will tell her he cannot receive her because she is in church discipline from Grace Church and needs to repent.  The pastor from Grace Church called Pastor Nate.  They at first made some small talk about common connections, but then he told Pastor Nate the story of Patty’s divisive behavior.  The story was compelling to Pastor Nate.  How could Patty have been so dishonest with him?  (She was completely honest.  The wolf was pulling the wool over Pastor Nate’s eyes.  Honing in on their mutual connections and experiences, the wolf built a level of intimacy and trust, and Patty’s “divisive character” was an easy sell.).

Chip, this is not a far-fetched story when it comes to spiritual abuse.  This is the type of story that I get in my blog’s e-mail.  Even you (and any pastor reading here) are not exempt from being fooled by a wolf.  Unless you personally know what is going on in someone’s church (you won’t know that unless you are part of it intimately), if you go by 9Marks guidelines of connecting with pastors of previous churches, you may mistakenly align yourself with a wolf and inflict harm on people by adhering to those guidelines.

Chip, I’d be happy if my blog could shut down.  It’s only been growing and it’s because of stories similar to this.  People want to be in church, but church leaders are sometimes unknowingly working alongside a spiritual wolf who is destroying lives.  I get some of those broken pieces of people saying:  what next?  where can I go?  who can I trust?

I know this comment is very long, but I hope I have shown you a different side worth considering as you consider aligning with some kind of 9Marks system where precious sheep can slip through the cracks and be left abandoned and shattered like Patty.

*     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *     *

For extra bonus points:  Using the above photo, can you find any significance with the picture and Patty’s story?  Any hidden parallels, ideas, thoughts come to mind?

Here is the link where you may read the entire discourse.  However, per Summer’s suggestion, I’m issuing a medical alert warning.  Reading it may cause your blood pressure to rise.

*     *     *

199 thoughts on “9Marks, Spiritual Abuse, and How Church Members Can Fall Through the Cracks”

  1. Thanks for this post Julie Anne. It offers 9Marks an opportunity to clear up possible misunderstandings–I hope! For my part, I would say Pastor Nate is wrong to send Patty back. I would also say he should not pass judgment on the dispute between her and the pastor of Grace Church. He’s right (I think) to ask whether she’s leaving her prior church in a good state. That’s being a careful shepherd. But then I think he should probably give her answers the benefit of the doubt and admit her to his church. Bottom line: we should be careful about admitting and dismissing members, yes, but we always need to do so in a spirit of charity and grace. Which is to say, a 9Marks’ perspective, insofar as I can represent it, agrees with your concern about this particular scenario. If your larger point is, “All human authority is bad,” then we would differ.

    Does this help at all? In my short book on membership, I encourage members to flee abusive churches, and offer a table on some of the characteristics of an abusive church. FWIW: not too long ago our church admitted a “Patty”–a woman who had been disciplined by another church b/c we disagreed with the elders of that church that she had been insubordinate etc. It was a sad situation, and we hoped our church provided her w/a loving shelter and support.

    Do pray for our church, and the ministry of 9Marks, that we would show special grace and comfort to the vulnerable and hurting. We could certainly do better.

    Blessings,
    Jonathan Leeman, 9Marks

    Like

  2. I am definitely having a problem in the “repent” thing. Repent from what? For disagreeing? And again, what gives the right to any leader to administer sanctions of discipline for disagreeing?

    This is a form of abuse that both Calvin and the Catholics did for people who disagreed with them. But the discipline in those days was death by burning at the stake, and calling those who were, heretics…all for disagreeing with the “leaders”.

    And Calvin supported the civil law of killing those who disagreed with him. People were scared to question him.

    So, if they can’t kill ’em, discipline them instead?

    By the way, 9Marks is a new concept. I thought the Apostle Paul already EQUIPPED all of us years ago…about 2,000 years ago. What’s up with the new rules that circumvent FREEDOM in Christ, yet we are not free to question authority? Even in the military, it is right to question authority, lawfully. As an American citizen, we have the right of redress, to question our leaders, and hold them accountable. Freedom. The 9Marks thing is another form of BONDAGE.

    Ed

    Like

  3. ” In my short book on membership, I encourage members to flee abusive churches, and offer a table on some of the characteristics of an abusive church.”

    Jonathan,

    This makes NO sense in light of 9Marks relationship with CJ Mahaney fleeing to CHBC and being protected and promoted by not only Dever but the T4G and TGC industrial complex.

    You all say one thing yet practice another.

    Like

  5. Jonathan, I greatly appreciate you stopping by and for your thoughtful response.

    I was pleased to see that you would give “Patty” the benefit of the doubt. Sadly, that has not been my experience with many pastors as I shared my story last year. Many were more inclined to believe a pastor over a congregant. When the stance becomes so strongly an us- vs-them mentality, I think pastors have forgotten their primary role as shepherds.

    It sounds as though you have an understanding of spiritual abuse and I appreciate the gracious and caring tone I read in your response towards hurting congregants. Can you please tell me the name of your book?

    I apologize, Jonathan, I have no idea who you are within 9Marks, but yesterday, I ran across some greatly disturbing news that my former pastor who sued 5 of us, had his license revoked, and really is not behaving as a godly shepherd is referenced on your site in the “find a church” page.

    I went to bed thinking about it and it was the first thing on my mind – – – that others unknowingly could be walking in those doors because of that 9Marks referral. Obviously 9Marks cannot “police” all of the churches, but what about a situation like this? Is there any kind of oversight in the church referral area offered at the 9Marks site?

    Like

  6. Lydia, You have a good point. I also mentioned that same thought yesterday at the SharperIron.org site. I would love to see Mr. Leeman address it.

    BTW, I just found this info on Jonathan Leeman from the 9Marks site and hope we can continue the respectful dialogue.

    The proof is in the pudding for me. You can have all the talk in the world, but if actions aren’t matching up, it means nothing whatsoever.

    Like

  7. Julie Anne,
    In certain respects, the ideas (we hope biblical) promoted by 9Marks were articulated in response to squishy, consumeristic, accountability-avoiding American evangelicalism–the kind of evangelicalism that conceives of our Christianity is all about “me and Jesus” and that gives the local church a marginal place at best. And I think that’s a good message which many American Christians need to hear. But if that’s a ditch on one side of the road, along the way we’ve become more mindful of a ditch on the other side: authoritarian and abusive churches. Now, my sense is that there are more churches “out there” in the former ditch than the latter one (depending on what circles you travel in). But I’d like to think we’re getting better at (i) aspiring toward a good balance ourselves, and (ii) articulating ourselves while being mindful of possible errors on either side. Do we practice or preach this balance perfectly? By no means. But again, we would love your prayers in learning how to do both better.

    As to your question about the Church Search: As you intimated, the Church Search does present the challenge of accountability. On the one hand, we’re not a denomination, and we don’t mean to be. We don’t have the staff or money (or the theological convictions) to have someone thoroughly investigate each church which places themselves on the Church Search site. When an application come, we simply look at the church’s website, and that’s about it. Really, you should think of it more as a community bulletin board, where you can pin your business card.

    On the other hand, we don’t want to give free advertising to bad churches. We do get reports of abusive churches from time to time, and we have removed churches based on such reports. Usually, I don’t think we would remove a church based on one bad report from someone we don’t know. Otherwise, any disgruntled member could have veto power over an entire church, which doesn’t seem fair either.

    In light of these two hands, there are times when I’ve been tempted to say we should get rid of the Church Search altogether! But ultimately, we hear lots of good reports of people finding good churches this way. We warn people very clearly on the site that we don’t heavily monitor the churches and that we cannot personally vouch for any of them. And then we leave it to users to use their own discernment when attending any church on the site. Will the 9Marks name get slimed with a few bad apples along the way? Probably. But then again, God has been gracious to unite his name to bad apples like us!

    I hope this is helpful. BTW: The name of the book I referred to is “Church Membership.”

    Like

  8. Jonathan,

    2 Corinthians 10:8
    For though I should boast somewhat more of our authority, which the Lord hath given us for edification, and not for your destruction, I should not be ashamed:

    If authority does not edify the member, then it isn’t from God.

    Ed

    Like

  9. Jonathan,

    9Marks makes recommendations on how churches should rule. My question is, why are the makers & keepers of the rules arbitrarily following their own rules? There is a growing concern that there is hypocrisy & favoritism on how the rules are actually applied. That there has been gross misapplication, not “an all of us can do better”. Do you understand the difference & growing concern?

    James 2:1-7 My brothers,show no partiality as you hold the faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory. 2 For if a man wearing a gold ring and fine clothing comes into your assembly, and a poor man in shabby clothing also comes in, 3 and if you pay attention to the one who wears the fine clothing and say, “You sit here in a good place,” while you say to the poor man, “You stand over there,” or, “Sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not then made distinctions among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? 5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor man. Are not the rich the ones who oppress you, and the ones who drag you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who blaspheme the honorable name by which you were called?

    8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you are doing well. 9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

    Like

  10. Jonathan,

    I appreciate your efforts in looking for that healthy balance and also that you were willing to come here and offer more understanding to me and my readers as to how 9Marks endeavors to work among churches. That is helpful.

    Jonathan, I am one person who spoke out against my former church very publicly and got sued. I understand that I could be labeled and have been labeled as “disgruntled.” I don’t care about that ridiculous label. God knows my heart.

    I don’t want to see people type in “97006” in that search area and land in a wolf’s church. I could send you files of reports going back 15 years of people who probably thought they were discerning and were hurt there. Yes, people need to be discerning but as scripture says, wolves creep in unnoticed.

    Did you read the link that shows the public behavior of my former pastor (and his wife)? Is that not enough? I guess if you personally haven’t lost a daughter to spiritual abuse, then you might not get it.

    We’re not talking about sliming with bad apples, we’re talking about precious souls.

    Like

  11. Ed,
    I agree.

    A Mom,
    I’m sympathetic with what you’re saying. What’s worth recognizing, I think, is that in Genesis 1:28, God places authority into the hands of human beings. In subsequent passages, he places authority into the hands of people possessing specific institutional roles or offices (e.g. government, parent, pastor, church). Now, each one of these offices can be used for good or for ill. The tragic thing is, we often use them for ill. We “misapply” them, as you say. And that’s the story of humanity. God gives us a tool to build a house, but we use that tool to hit someone on the head.

    In response, we can draw one of two conclusions: we can say that all authority (and all tools) in the hands of humans is bad, or we can work at using authority as God originally intended and as exemplified in the new Adam–Christ.

    Now, I would like to argue that the biblical solution is to learn to use authority well–to pursue a “redeemed authority.” You might disagree with me, and that’s okay. And you’d certainly be right to warn me about all the possible dangers of redeemed authority. Warn away! But hopefully this helps you to understand where I’m coming from. Look at the last words of David in 2 Samuel 23:3-4. There you have a picture of the life-giving effect of good authority. AUTHORity should AUTHOR life. It should create, empower, embolden others, not diminish them. That’s how God has used his authority–to create. So should we. A good coach helps his team members run faster. A good mother helps her children grow in the knowledge of the Lord. A good pastor helps his members walk in the freedom of righteousness.

    (Incidentally, as a congregationalist, I believe the congregation has the final authority, not the pastors, exactly because pastors DO sometimes compromise the gospel in their words and deeds. And they must be called to account. Still, God has given us the good gifts of elders and pastors (see Eph. 4) to equip us for the work of ministry.)

    Part of having authority, moreover, means applying Scripture into the specific situations of life. So the Bible says nothing about bedtimes. But the authority of a parent means they get to decide a child’s bedtime. The Bible says nothing about service times, but someone has to make that decision. This is where we enter the difficult territory of wisdom. It’s easy to take the Fundamentalist’s approach by trying to codify everything in rules; and it’s easy to take the Individualist’s approach, and say that everyone should do what seems best in his or her own eyes. But I think the better (and harder) path is the middle one, which establishes the few structures that the Bible puts in place, and then which tries to walk the path of wisdom which requires us to take much of life on a case by case basis. That means I avoid words like “always,” as in “In such and such a situation, a parent/pastor/prince must always…”

    I suspect that I’m probably being too abstract to be helpful. As you know, the devil is often in the details. But I hope some of these remarks are broadly helpful. I’m grateful for your care in these matters. Abused authority is a particularly heinous sin because it lies egregiously about God and what he’s like.

    Friends,
    I fear I need to bow out of this conversation now. I’m supposed to be using my day-off for certain tasks agreed upon with my wife, and I need to attend to those! 🙂

    Please don’t take my not answering further questions as a lack of care or agreement.

    Blessings,
    Jonathan

    Like

  12. In certain respects, the ideas (we hope biblical) promoted by 9Marks were articulated in response to squishy, consumeristic, accountability-avoiding American evangelicalism–the kind of evangelicalism that conceives of our Christianity is all about “me and Jesus” and that gives the local church a marginal place at best. And I think that’s a good message which many American Christians need to hear.

    Until Communism begets Objectivism.
    Just as out-of-balance in the opposite direction.

    Like

  13. Ed, As one learns in this game, it is all about definitions. You might want to ask what is meant by edify. It is always best to watch actions and see if they match the words. So far, 9Marks has failed miserably in practicing what they preach to others as we witnessed by their actions with Mahaney.

    Note he bows out without responding to serious concerns based upon what 9Marks teaches and their protection and promotion of CJ Mahaney.

    I would also question very closely how their form of “congregationalism” works. They might be using the more Puritan definition.

    Like

  14. JA, Those who make their living in ministry rarely “get it”. This is all they know and their income depends on it. Most of their “education” has been more of an indoctrination and following their favorite guru. They are getting very good at “words” while ignoring the elephant in the room, though. And people fall for it. That is the sad part. May we become thinkers who follow Christ instead of non thinkers who follow after men.

    Like

  15. @ Lydia~

    Why does it seem that people cannot understand this? That those who make their living in “ministry” full time will do what it takes to protect this income?

    Do we really think pastors are not human- and therefore cannot become greedy, compromised, selfish, afraid of men, succumb to peer pressure…etc. It’s only common sense to keep in the back of one’s mind….hey, this pastor depends on keeping up this charade…. because that is how he makes his money?

    Like

  16. The church I went to for decades and was a member of, I *never* felt I was under a minister’s authority. And I don’t remember anything of the sort ever being mentioned.

    Nothing from Mr. Leeman about looking into BGBC and possibly removing that name. Would’ve been nice…

    Like

  17. lydiasellerofpurple,

    I can’t argue with you there. I looked up the word edify before I even wrote that comment. It means to uplift. Some may say that uplifting a person is the “feel good” gospel. Well…dah! It’s supposed to feel good. If it doesn’t, it isn’t good news.

    But, in today’s society, many words are being redefined. If Jonathan states that he is already equipped with scripture, then what is a need to re-invent the wheel with a new set of rules? I guess it’s another one of them “reform” things.

    He brings up the word authority in a different manner than what the gospel intended, as well. The kingdom of God is not like the kingdom of man. Jesus is the King of Kings. That means that we are all of the same rank. There is only Jesus above us. Yes, it is just Jesus and me, and the “authority” is supposed to always point us to Jesus…not themselves. I like that he states that the congregation has the final say in things, but, I am thinking that he is going to teach the congregation what HIS law of 9Marks is in order to determine what to do, rather than using the Bible alone. The Catholics fall into that trap all the time, using extra-Biblical means to do things. And, the Pharisees did, too. The Mormons, do, as well as the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    I think that we call that the traditions of men?

    I have noticed you discussing actions a lot. That is extremely important. Actions do speak louder than words. In addition, the Bible states that your actions reflect the heart.

    Ed

    Like

  18. Julie Anne

    I read your comments today over at sharperIron. And the replys. Oy Vey!!! 😦

    IMO – You did a masterful job of explaining what goes on with “Pastors who Abuse.”
    And you did a fine job explaining the problems, abuses, with 9 Marks.
    Yes – You have walked into the lions den – Be thankful Stake-burning is un-lawful. 😉

    And I can understand when you write today
    on yesterdays post @ AUGUST 5, 2013 @ 8:44 PM

    “The conversation has been respectful,
    but I find the focus on authority and devotion to Dever unsettling.”

    It was unsettling, frustrating, uncomfortable, for me also. – and I was just reading. 😉
    On one side of their mouth they agree with you – Then it becomes – Yeah, BUT…
    “you are walking on thin ice. You are judging the attitudes behind the writings.”

    And “You” become the target – NO longer “Pastors who Abuse,” or 9 Marks.
    “You” become the problem for pointing it out.
    A typical tactic of “Pastors who are addicted to Exercising Authority.”
    A typical tactic of “Pastors who are addicted to Protecting their Authority.”

    When you believe the lie – you start to die…
    When you live the lie – you die slowly – day by day…

    Like

  19. Dianne,
    Right on!!! I hinted at that the other day to JA about Chucky in regards to fame and fortune…the failed attempt of suing, now getting his name known in the media, certain big wig contacts, aka, moving up the chain of command, writing books, making a lot of money.

    Wasn’t Paul a tent maker for sailing ships? He was not in ministry full time.

    Ed

    Like

  20. Amos – – – it’s not so easy to discuss this stuff among pastors who want to defend their position of authority.

    Sometimes I can hear your words in my head when I respond to these guys, Amos. I kid you not. I know exactly what you’d be saying 🙂

    Like

  21. Julie Anne

    YUP – They are “Focused on “Their Authority”
    Chip, at ShrperIron, eventually quoting Heb 13:17. Ouch!!!
    Actually Chip mis-quotes this infamous Heb 13:17 – He writes…

    “There’s also Hebrews 13:17 where believers are commanded to obey their pastors…” Chip adds the word “Pastor.” But – Pastor, Elder, Deacon, is NOT in Heb 13. – And Chip leaves out the part of – “for they watch for your souls”

    AND – When you disagree with a pastor who thinks he’s the leader in Heb 13:17. “Watching for your soul” is NO longer important – Church Discipline is on the way.

    That verse has been so mis-used, so mis-quoted, They think it’s “Biblical.” They forget Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to “Exercise Authority” like the gentiles. That elders are NOT to Lord it over God’s heritage.

    Seems the Gentiles, the World System, use “Titles” to create Authority?
    To create “Hierarchy” – And Lord it over folks?

    Jesus taught – “Lower Archy.” 😉

    In my expereience with pastor/leaders – and having been in Leadership…
    “Titles” become “Idols” ………………. “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-11 KJV
    “Pastors” become “Masters” ………. A No, No, Mat 23:10 KJV

    Like

  22. “Wasn’t Paul a tent maker for sailing ships? He was not in ministry full time.”

    Exactly, Ed.

    Funny how Paul is the go to guy for sermons- except for that part. If that wasn’t in the bible for me to read myself, I would never have known it because I never hear any pastors preaching about the fact that Paul supported himself. Only that the bible supports payment for ministry….and full time payment at that!! I supposed we could even find 40 hours per week payment in the bible if we looked hard enough. 😉

    Gosh, how hard is it to see that one needs to be careful of the trap one gets into when one has to depend on the kindness of other people and their money for their livelihood? It is ridiculous to think pastors are above compromising in this way -especially if seminary is the extent of their education.

    Like

  23. Diane – It really makes sense why they need to focus on a hierarchy when you look at it that way. 9Marks is doing well to promote this kind of structure for churches and no wonder churches/pastors like them or think they need them.

    So just as CBMW is telling women how they should be acting like godly women and telling men how they should be acting like godly men (as if we were so confused), now we have 9Marks telling pastors how to be pastors. More spoon feeding, teaching pastors to rely on others rather than to listen to the Holy Spirit and read their own Bibles (btw, the HS is notably absent in the articles written by these guys – I guess there is no HS????).

    I’m learning, slowly but surely.

    Ok, I have to confess, had Jonathan Leeman not posted “9Marks” with his name, I would have had no idea who he was. When I had to approve the post, I was thinking it was someone from SharperIron. I guess his name sounds familiar, but I really had no clue – lol. It’s kind of funny to think about me with my laptop tweeting in my night clothes (not telling you what I was wearing) beneath my sheets and then having a notable 9Marks person quickly come over here 🙂 hahahaha I’m such a dork.

    Like

  24. Ed, As one learns in this game, it is all about definitions. You might want to ask what is meant by edify.

    Including semantic games worthy of the Tsars (semantic games with definitions didn’t start with the Bolsheviki):

    “Is no slavery in Russia — here we call it ‘Servitude’!”

    “Is no death penalty in Russia — instead we have a thousand strokes with the knout.” (Never mentioning that with the knout, this was 50 times the number of strokes needed to kill.)

    Like

  25. Gosh, how hard is it to see that one needs to be careful of the trap one gets into when one has to depend on the kindness of other people and their money for their livelihood?

    As it could lead to the MOG extorting TITHES TITHES TITHES from his congregation by pressure or force. And to keep in control — “The Tithes Must Flow.”

    Or a Big Tither controlling the MOG behind-the-scenes with the threat of withholding his $$$$$ support. Like Campaign Contributions(TM) in secular politics. (Not only pastor bought-and-paid-for, but extorting favors in the other direction — elderships, deaconates, veto power, all the things those Papists called “Simony”.)

    Like

  26. “Gosh, how hard is it to see that one needs to be careful of the trap one gets into when one has to depend on the kindness of other people and their money for their livelihood? It is ridiculous to think pastors are above compromising in this way -especially if seminary is the extent of their education.”

    When you stop and really think about it, the system they have derived from proof texting is incredible in the free West. We are to pay them to teach us we have to obey them. If more people would start looking at the pastor as a paid employee of them, the donors, it would go a long way to accountability. I mean, where else can you get paid by the same people you insist you have “authority” over? It is uncanny. Obey and pay up. Sounds like socialism to me.

    Save your money and use it to help someone in real need in the Name of Jesus.

    Like

  27. Lydia: But what do you say about pastors who are getting a paycheck from tithes but who are true shepherds and do not lord over their congregation?

    Like

  28. Diane, “Ministry” as we see it today is a huge sin trap for these guys. They cannot even acknowledge their lack of discernment and hard heartedness concerning Mahaney. I honestly think they admired his shepherding cult methods at SGM and were determined to prop him up. Mohler even told a reporter we just did not like “strong leadership”. Dever let him flee to his church (is that a tenant of 9Marks or only for celebrities?) So they pretend: Move along nothing to see here as they delete statements and rewrite them only to delete them again.

    My mom told me before she died the church in America is a huge mission field. I now know what she meant. People are following men instead of Christ and do not even realize it.

    Like

  29. Julie Anne, each one of us is important. Everyone puts their pants (or jammies) on one leg at a time. Dork you are not. hugs. 🙂

    Like

  30. @ JA

    Jonathan Leeman wrote this in the end of his article, “A Church Discipline Primer”

    “Also, to care about the reputation of Christ is to care about other members of the church. Christians should want to look like Jesus, and church discipline helps to keep his holy picture clear. Members are reminded to take greater care in their own lives whenever a formal act of discipline occurs. The Congregationalist James sums it up well: “The advantages of discipline are obvious. It reclaims backsliders, detects hypocrites, circulates a salutary awe through the church, adds a further incentive to watchfulness and prayer, proves beyond question the fact and consequences of human frailty, and moreover, publicly testifies against unrighteousness.”[2]

    Finally, to care about the reputation of Christ is to care about the individual caught in sin. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul knew the most loving course of action was to exclude a man from the congregation “so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord” (1Cor. 5:5).

    Why should a church practice discipline? For the good of the individual, the good of non-Christians, the good of the church, and the glory of Christ.[3] Keeping these basic goals in mind will help churches and elders move from one difficult case to another, knowing that God’s wisdom and love will prevail even as ours fall short.”
    http://www.9marks.org/journal/church-discipline-primer

    I would say this fairly well indicts what 9marks teaches and how Dever related with Mahaney when he fled CLC to CHBC instead of staying within the bounds of his own local church. Why didn’t Dever allow Mahaney to be church disciplined if this is so important for the name of Christ?

    Didn’t Dever wish for the “good of the individual, the good of non-Christians, the good of the church, and the glory of Christ?” It appears Dever doesn’t really care about Mahaney–“Finally, to care about the reputation of Christ is to care about the individual caught in sin. In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul knew the most loving course of action was to exclude a man from the congregation “so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord” ” Shouldn’t Dever have practiced what he teaches and let CLC deal with their own member…possibly putting Mahaney out from the congregation so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord?

    Again, Leeman writes, “Christians should want to look like Jesus, and church discipline helps to keep his holy picture clear.” Has the involvement by Dever to shelter Mahaney instead of allowing him to be dealt with by his own local church done anything to show that SGM looks like Jesus, and that they are keeping “his holy picture clear?” I submit it has not and it has done just the opposite People are quite angry about this hypocrisy.

    Why did 9marks not do (in Mahaney’s case) what it is teaching? I would love for Mr. Leeman to address this.

    Like

  31. “Lydia: But what do you say about pastors who are getting a paycheck from tithes but who are true shepherds and do not lord over their congregation?”

    I am not a Nazi about this but I do not think we see “pastor” as a full time paid position in the NT. I see it as a function within the Body. I think we see financially supporting those who traveled around proclaiming the gospel. Jesus had women financially supporting Him and traveling with Him. :o)

    I also do not see a “tithe” for the New Covenant as the actual tithe in the OC was about 23% and the poor were exempt anyway.

    Jesus told Peter “The sons are free” when it came to paying the temple tax when Peter obligated Him. I think we see Paul taking up a collection for the Jerusalem church because they were being persecuted. He mentions it quite a bit.

    I think this teaching of the tithe is a big part of our institutional problem. You would not believe the money that flows from marketing Jesus. I have seen it. It would blow folks away. I would rather see us use our money as the Body to minister to those in need instead of building fancier buildings and hiring more hirlings.

    Most folks don’t question it. They feel they have done a duty or checked a box. Had I not seen what I saw, I would probably still believe it. But I decided to do some homework on it as was astonished at how much I believed that really has no bearing in the New Covenant.

    Like

  32. Julie Anne

    Chip, at SharperIron, also mis-quotes 1 Tim 5:17…
    “where pastors who rule well are commended for double honor.”
    Chip adds the word “Pastor.” The word there is “elder” – NOT “pastor.”

    Can we give Chip a penalty for adding to, changing, God’s word? 🙂

    And “Rule” is the Greek – proistemi – Which means – to be over, to superintend – But – It also means – to be a protector or guardian, to give aid, to care for. So, that elder must – protect – guard – give aid – care for – “WELL” If they are to – “be counted worthy of double honour.”

    And – ALL believers, have permission to determine
    if an elder is protecting, guarding, caring for, “WELL.”

    1Thes 5:12 KJV
    And we beseech you, brethren, to *know them (*perceive, notice, discern,)
    which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord…

    And – After checking them out – I’ve never met an elder/overseer who
    “Qualifies” – according to the tough qualifications in 1 Tim 3 and Titus.

    What should we call someone, who calls themself “Elder” BUT…
    Does NOT “Qualify” according to the Bible? – Names Please…

    NO – Those, who call themselves “Church Leadrs” can NOT see, or understand, or agree with you totally – without reservations, what you are saying. They have to protect the “Good Ole Boys Club” – other Church Leaders – They have to protect their – Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory – Recognition – Reputation – they worked so hard to obtain…

    They have to protect the Commandments of Men – Doctrines of Men -Traditions of Men – they have been teaching for so long. It’s hard to admit you’ve been teaching “Traditions of Men – And NOT the Bible. It’s hard to admit you have taken a “Title/Position” NOT in the Bible. It’s hard to admit they are “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles and Lording it over God’s heritage.

    But – Say it anyway… You never know who is listening…

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  33. Lydia,
    Jews gave 10% to support the Levites, if I’m not mistaken. If we are to follow this OT command, we need to find the Levites ASAP. I believe this is why Jews do not & cannot follow this command today, because it is to go to the Levites. Although I’ve heard they are trying to find Levites through DNA so they can again follow it.

    Like

  34. @ Lydia~

    “Diane, “Ministry” as we see it today is a huge sin trap for these guys. They cannot even acknowledge their lack of discernment and hard heartedness concerning Mahaney”

    Yes. I was wondering how the average tithe paying every day person does not see this when I wrote- “Why does it seem that people cannot understand this? That those who make their living in “ministry” full time will do what it takes to protect this income?” I know why the pastors don’t see this. But why not the people in the pews?
    People surely understand they must please their bosses or they get fired…..

    “We are to pay them to teach us we have to obey them. If more people would start looking at the pastor as a paid employee of them, the donors, it would go a long way to accountability. I mean, where else can you get paid by the same people you insist you have “authority” over? It is uncanny. Obey and pay up. Sounds like socialism to me.”

    Yes. I have often thought of that very thing!

    You work (call it serve) for the church and sometimes the pastors even determine how and when you WILL work/serve–sometimes requiring 2-3 days per week of activities in addition to Sundays; you do this work for free (am sure there are some exceptions); you pay the pastor(s) and they tell you how you will work for them-how you will make them and their church look good in the community with all of the ministries they develop for you to help in; you are paying their full time salaries, yet you are to obey and submit to them and if disagreements arise between you and the pastor whose salary YOU pay, it is mostly going to be you who will be giving in because Hebrews says to submit, and submit with a good attitude to make your pastor’s life a joy (CJ Mahaney translation).

    A thinking person would rightly call that ….off, a bit. 🙂

    .

    Like

  36. Jonathan’s 8:11 response to JA seems to be an all or nothing approach. He doesn’t seem to be compelled or concerned into any sort of action after knowing CON is on the 9Marks recommended list. His response definitely tells us much about 9Marks. Don’t miss it. It’s important. Read & re-read it.

    It seems the point of the 8:11 response is to tell us that the benefit of the whole comes before any individual or group of individuals. This thinking discards the people in the group for the “group”, right? Who is the “group” really then, but the person making the rules! Think about it…..

    It’s like saying, “My doctor is helpful. He fixed me several times & I got better every time. Oh, he continues to prescribe meds in the wrong way for your condition & it’s hurt others with the same condition? That’s too bad. I don’t think he means any harm, his heart is in the right place. I still like him. He’s helped many people.”

    Instead, how about saying, “My doctor has helped me. But I understand he has hurt others by prescribing the wrong meds for them. That’s a problem. That needs to be fixed before more are hurt.”

    Why is it mutually exclusive? We should use both sides of the brain God gave us.

    Like

  37. “Pay to Pray!!”

    aka….show up, shut up, pay up.

    Or…stay, pay and obey, if one prefers a rhyme.

    Like

  38. JA
    I had to smile when I saw J. Leeman’s comment. I know of a situation in a well-known 9Marks church which will not let a person resign their membership. I bet he knows about that as well.

    This individual disagrees with the direction of 9Marks and it has a theological basis. but he can’t resign. Can we say “Hotel California?”

    Like

  40. Below, in what can only be summed up as a total lack of discernment, are some enlightening comments from Mark Dever. A well respected friend of mine recently stated on his Facebook page “Note to Evangelicals: The Gospel Coaltion is not your curia . . . .”
    I would rush to add that neither is 9Marks. I have jettisoned the respect I once had for Dever and 9Marks.

    Mark Dever’s opening comments at Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville,
    2 June 2013
    http://www.sgclouisville.org/sovereign-grace-church-louisville-sermons/sermon/2013-06-02/jesus-and-the-new-people-of-god—mark-3:7-19—mark-dever

    “What a joy this is. It’s a particular privilege to be here. Capitol Hill Baptist Church has prayed regularly for the Sovereign Grace Church of Louisville. I guess we’ve been praying for you longer than you’ve existed because you don’t have members yet. So you’re working on existing and we’re already praying for you! We want to encourage you in that, and that’s especially because we know a number of the brothers and sisters involved here; we’re thankful for you all, thankful for the ministry you’ve had in our church over the years. The Sovereign Grace Churches in general that I’ve had to do with have marked fruits of the Spirit, more marked than any other group of Christian churches I know of, and I am thankful for that.

    And in fact your own pastor was the object of gossip yesterday at this event that I was at, the wedding of Al Mohler’s daughter. There were three Christian leaders standing there, I overheard them talking about C.J. and I stepped up and listened; and all three of them know him and all of them were bragging on him and his integrity in a number of ways, one of which is the way he’s begun in leading this church plant. So you all who are here in this church, and particularly if you’re visiting or you’re sort of new to Sovereign Grace, you have the privilege of having this man as your pastor that you don’t fully grasp; and that’s absolutely fine. Just thank God for him and enjoy the Word of God as he brings it from a life and a heart full of the gospel. Know that I am delighted to be here. It is a privilege to address you brothers and sisters.”

    Like

  42. JA, While 9Marks has this disclaimer, Jonathan stated they don’t put just any church on the list. They do a review (of the church’s website). IMO, most people who are looking through the list think they are getting a stamp of approval from 9Marks & probably feel some level of comfort.

    Like

  44. A Mom – The “dork” adjective is regarding my great amusement of the visual I was seeing in my mind. It’s hilarious. You see, dorks sit in their homes behind their laptops and laugh at their own amusement – that’s me 🙂 It’s cheap entertainment.

    I remember the day I nonchalantly told my husband that I just had an hour-long conversation with Phil Johnson. He was shocked. I told him the same thing about pants. I don’t care about names. We are all equal.

    I think it’s ridiculous that I had to essentially get a “name” in order to have an audience with these guys. They should be willing to talk to anyone regardless if they have a blog or are a SAHM or a single person or if they wrote a book with endorsements. Give me a break.

    Like

  45. JA, While 9Marks has this disclaimer, Jonathan stated they don’t put just any church on the list. They do a review (of the church’s website). IMO, most people who are looking through the list think they are getting a stamp of approval from 9Marks & probably feel some level of comfort.

    Exactly, A Mom. They are loud about what they stand for and I am loud about what I stand for. I am not done with this. I will be watching the website.

    It’s about integrity and Christ’s reputation and spiritual lives. Why is this so difficult?

    Like

  46. My question to Jonathan was, “Why are the makers & keepers of the rules arbitrarily following their own rules? Do you understand the growing concern?”

    I confess, in my haste I typed arbitrary. It was the wrong word. I should have used “selectively” instead, it’s more accurate. Ughhh.

    Anyway, if you read Jonathan’s answer, what reason does he give? Can it be summed up in one sentence, “They have the God-given authority, but they make mistakes?” He also uses the parent-child analogy when speaking of the pastor-congregant relationship.

    Thoughts anyone?

    Like

  47. Julie Anne

    You ask…
    “what do you say about pastors who are getting a paycheck from tithes”

    I say, “getting a paycheck from tithes” is NOT in the Bible.

    Because, Tithe just means – a tenth – Ten percent – And…
    In the scriptures the “Tithe” was never Silver, Gold, or Money.
    Except once – when Abraham gaves tithes of the spoils of war. – ONCE.

    The “Tithe” was always food, to be eaten or sacrificed – Burnt-up…
    When was the last time you saw a $5 Lincoln, a $50 Grant, burnt-up.

    Mal 3:10
    Bring ye ALL the tithes into the storehouse,
    that there may be *meat* in mine house,

    Here’s a few favorite verses, that I never heard from the pulpit.
    Here is a “Tithe” that is for “You” and your household to eat. 😉

    No Really – Check it out – Who’s “Tithe” is it? – Who get to eat the “Tithe?”

    Deut 14:22-26 NASB
    22 – You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow,
    which comes out of the field every year.
    23 – “You” shall eat in the presence of the Lord your God,
    at the place where He chooses to establish His name,
    the tithe of “your” grain, “your” new wine, “your “oil,
    and the firstborn of “your” herd and “your” flock,
    so that “you” may learn to fear the Lord your God always.
    24 – If the distance is so great for you
    that you are not able to bring the tithe,
    since the place where the Lord your God chooses
    to set His name is too far away from you
    when the Lord your God blesses you,
    25 – then you shall exchange it for money,
    and bind the money in your hand
    and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses.
    26 – You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires:
    …..(I like the KJV here – “whatsoever thy soul lusteth after”)
    for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, (Strong Drink???)
    or whatever your heart desires; and there
    “you” shall eat in the presence of the Lord your God
    and rejoice, **you and your household.**

    Now that’s a “Tithe” “WE” can ALL enjoy participating in. 😉

    Like

  49. Jonathan Leeman,
    Please answer these questions:
    1. Do I have to be a member of a church to be “in Christ”?
    2. Can I be brought under discipline for anything that the elders deem “sin”?
    These are “yes” or “no” questions.

    Like

  51. Lydia,

    In response to your “paid pastors” post above:

    Okay…so pastors can get paid for “shepherding”, or “preaching” or “teaching”.

    Okay, fine…I have no problem with that, strictly speaking. People are free to do what they want with their money…it that is pay a pastor, fine.

    But one can get paid a lot MORE for holding the “keys to the kingdom”; for this is is, to them, the power of salvation and damnation. And once THAT “authority” is placed upon the ecclesiastical leadership, all of a sudden, people are NOT free to do what they want with their OWN money. Because in that context it no longer becomes THEIR money, but God’s money…which is taught as really being money belonging to the “local church”. The local church, I submit, is something akin these days to a Marxist collective. You don’t give or serve because you choose to, but because you are OBLIGATED to, by virtue of the understanding that, once you become a Christian, you forfeit yourself and property to the “body”, which, again, is to them, the “local church”,, which IS the Pastor. The members are no longer truly appreciated. You either serve and tithe or you are disciplined…or excommunicated, just like in the Marxist collective. There is no love in this construct. “Pastor” becomes, to me, nothing more than a spiritual extortionist.

    I do not give to churches with this understanding of “local church authority”, because I am not recognized as having a real say in the matter. There is no distinction any more that the money I give is actually MY money, therefore, the work I do to serve and the work I do to earn money for the tithe is no longer appreciated, and since you cannot separate my WORK from MYSELF, then I am no longer appreciated. And you cannot love what you do not appreciate…because you cannot love what you consider to be nothing more than an extension of YOURSELF. Which is exactly what so many church’s teach. You BELONG to the body…you are not YOU, you are the body.

    This kind of thinking breeds abusive power constructs in leadership, which is nothing more than despotism.

    Like

  52. “A church’s appearance in the Church Search tool should not be viewed as an endorsement by 9Marks.”

    However, I would think that by a church showing up in the search engine, it would mean that the church follows the direction that 9Marks lays out. If the church clearly breaks any of the guidelines, they should no longer be a 9Marks designated church.

    I’ve been thinking about that pictures. Exiting these churches is not as easy as simply opening the door and walking out. Exiting seems to be a difficult “process.”

    Like

  54. Here’s some more from that website, Diane:

    “The apostles had heaven’s authority for declaring who on earth is a kingdom citizen and therefore represents heaven.

    I’m not saying that Jesus established a “church membership program” in Matthew 16, but he indisputably established the church (which is its members), and he gave it the authority of the keys to continue building itself—effectively the authority to receive and dismiss members. The authority of the keys is the authority to assess a person’s gospel words and deeds and to render a judgment. “

    Like

  55. Whoa, and this:

    “The state’s representative authority, we said in chapter one, is seen most clearly in its ability to end a person’s life. Likewise, the church’s representative authority in Christ’s kingdom is seen most clearly in its ability to remove a person from citizenship in Christ’s kingdom. In both cases, the full extent of institutional authority is indicated by the power to decisively end a person’s membership, through death in one case and excommunication in the other. ”

    Maybe I ought not be concerned about the 9Marks connection with my former church. It’s all lining up perfectly as Control Freak Churches (CFC).

    Like

  56. “The state’s representative authority, we said in chapter one, is seen most clearly in its ability to end a person’s life. Likewise, the church’s representative authority in Christ’s kingdom is seen most clearly in its ability to remove a person from citizenship in Christ’s kingdom. In both cases, the full extent of institutional authority is indicated by the power to decisively end a person’s membership, through death in one case and excommunication in the other. ”

    Wait….what?

    Like

  57. I’ve been thinking about that pictures. Exiting these churches is not as easy as simply opening the door and walking out. Exiting seems to be a difficult “process.”

    Again, there’s another example of lining up with BGBC. The most difficult part was leaving. 9Marks is a perfect fit for BGBC. 9Marks should be proud to be connected with Chuck O’Neal, the suing pastor. They might ask him to come and speak at their conferences. Nothing would surprise me now.

    Like

  59. “It seems the point of the 8:11 response is to tell us that the benefit of the whole comes before any individual or group of individuals. This thinking discards the people in the group for the “group”, right? Who is the “group” really then, but the person making the rules! Think about it…..”

    A mom, the whole thing makes no sense. Jonathan says the 9Marks list of churches is a bulletin board of sorts. But what is the point of that bulletin board? To direct people to the “spiritually correct” churches that follow 9 Marks methods.

    But wait? I would have to assume by past behavior over time 9Marks approved of SGM/Mahaney methods. Now we know they advertise the church whose pastor sued JA as practicing 9Marks methods.

    What are we to make of this?

    Jonathan says they cannot police such things. What? Then why have a bulletin board promoting churches you really know nothing about? Of course, they knew about SGM but we are to ignore that. Nothing to see there except victims of child molesters who were told they were just as big of sinners as the molesters and to forgive immediately and not call police. Only that.

    It just makes no sense. Unless………..9 Marks agrees with JA’s former pastor and SGM/Mahaney. Then it would make total sense even though extremely hypocritical in not practicing what they preach.

    Like

  60. JA,

    You know Dever et al believe, like Calvin, that Reformed elders have the authority to forgive sin, right?

    Like

  62. “Anyway, if you read Jonathan’s answer, what reason does he give? Can it be summed up in one sentence, “They have the God-given authority, but they make mistakes?” He also uses the parent-child analogy when speaking of the pastor-congregant relationship.”

    This is why their quest for power over people is a huge sin trap. You see, when they sin by mistreating people it is a mistake. But when you do not obey them it is sin.

    Everything is about redefining. That is why you always ask for definitions on everything. Even then, the flowery spin usually masks it. That is why behavior/actions are so important.

    Like

  64. Ok, in a note on SharperIron someone quoted that in order to put someone in church discipline, it requires 2/3rds of the members approval. Leeman says CHBC is congregational. I wonder how Dever was able to excommunicate 256 members with 2/3 congregational approval. Is excommunication the same as church discipline? Would excommunication also require 2/3rds member approval?

    You guys, my head is spinning here. I’ve got about 10 posts drafted in my mind.

    Like

  65. Paul Dohse said:

    “You know Dever et al believe, like Calvin, that Reformed elders have the authority to forgive sin, right?”

    Really, just like the priest I went to in high school to confess my sins when I was a Catholic? No way, Paul.

    Like

  66. Argo, Did you read the 9Marks article which talks about the keys to the kingdom stuff? It is scary when you read it close enough to picture the outcomes of the teaching. Always take their teaching to its logical result. And what is funny, they always insist it won’t end up there. Right.

    I support a local church, too, btw. BUT—I vote on the budget, get to see all the spending, vote on committees, know staff salaries, etc. I am in the priesthood of believer. The believers run the church as a body. The pastor does not even chair meetings. But he is one of us and has a vote. Just like I do.

    I will never go to a church run by a few men. I have seen the group think up close and personal that results in such insulation from accountability.

    I will always insist on seeing a detailed budget before I join any church. If they are transparent Christians, they should have no problem sharing that with you. You are, after all, a grown up who is expected to help pay for it. Sheesh!

    The deal is this: When the money dries up, they go away. I suspect they would find a stage and followers somewhere.

    Like

  67. Are you guys starting to see how much they READ INTO scripture to give themselves power over people? It is chilling, isn’t it?

    Like

  68. They are looking very Roman Catholic.

    Mr. Leeman says believers do not have the authority to declare themselves representatives of Jesus Christ on their own:

    “Practical implication 3: Christians should belong to local churches. Christians do not have the authority to declare themselves Jesus’ representatives. The church has this authority, which it ordinarily exercises by dispensing the Lord’s Supper to its members. (Which is not to say that church cannot provide the Lord’s Supper to visiting members of other churches for the sake of acknowledging the wider body of Christ.) Plus, maintaining the credibility of one’s profession of faith requires a believer to remain under the oversight of a church.”

    http://www.9marks.org/journal/church-and-churches-independence

    Like

  69. Paul, you’ve been trying to tell me this stuff since I got your book last year. I’ve tried to read your book about 10 times. I go to your site and sometimes my head hurts. You speak in big 4-syllabe words, but what I do not miss is when I hear/see the words and watch the behavior that does not line up. Things are becoming very clear as I read this stuff in light of the the public behavior and responses I have seen from some of these church leaders.

    Like

  70. Jonathan: I’m hoping that curiosity got the best of you and you came back to read this thread. I have to ask you. I see that you wrote this article: What Are the Keys of the Kingdom? It is almost 1-1/2 years old. You were very gracious and thoughtful in your responses here and I’m sure you can now read the concerns that my readers have. I have to ask, do you still stand by the words from your article? We’ve quoted a few paragraphs from it that have caused concern. Is there any wording you would change from the current online version? Or are you in agreement with it as it stands?

    I’m asking because I’m sure that if someone were to scour my old blog, they would find inconsistencies with my beliefs between then and now and so I want to give you the benefit of the doubt. If you’d rather e-mail me, that’s fine, too. spiritualsb @ gmail dot com

    Thanks!
    Julie Anne

    Like

  71. Everything is about redefining. That is why you always ask for definitions on everything. Even then, the flowery spin usually masks it. That is why behavior/actions are so important.

    Russian authorities throughout history liked to redefine semantics. Like one Tsar’s “Is no slavery in Russia; here we call it ‘Servitude’.” And another’s abolishing the death penalty, substituting flogging with the knout — 50 times the number of blows needed to kill the man being flogged.

    And their post-First Russian Revolution successors carried on the tradition to where they invented the “People’s Republic of Tyranny” trope — where the more adjectives about Democracy there are in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.

    Semantics, semantics, semantics.
    Spin, spin, spin.

    Like

  72. You know Dever et al believe, like Calvin, that Reformed elders have the authority to forgive sin, right?

    “The new Presbyter is but the old Priest writ large.” — Milton

    And they’re claiming Divine authority to bind and loose without the Catholic church’s 2000-year experience as to how that can go sour and mistakes to avoid.

    Like

  73. Here’s some more from that website, Diane:

    “The apostles had heaven’s authority for declaring who on earth is a kingdom citizen and therefore represents heaven.” — Julie Anne

    Does that mean they’re now claiming unbroken Apostolic Succession?

    Like

  74. This kind of thinking breeds abusive power constructs in leadership, which is nothing more than despotism.

    Kyle: “But Dad — isn’t that Fascism?”

    Kyle’s Dad: “No it isn’t, son. Because we don’t call it ‘Fascism’. Do you understand?”

    Kyle: “Do you?”

    — South Park, “Sexual Harassment Panda”.

    Like

  75. Julie Anne said, “Whoa, and this: “The state’s representative authority, we said in chapter one, is seen most clearly in its ability to end a person’s life. Likewise, the church’s representative authority in Christ’s kingdom is seen most clearly in its ability to remove a person from citizenship in Christ’s kingdom. In both cases, the full extent of institutional authority is indicated by the power to decisively end a person’s membership, through death in one case and excommunication in the other.”
    Maybe I ought not be concerned about the 9Marks connection with my former church. It’s all lining up perfectly as Control Freak Churches (CFC).

    I see the reformed Calvinistic construct of churches as a Monet painting. Beautiful from afar, but when you get up close, it’s a complete mess.

    Like

  76. Paul,
    Your comments are helpful. The link in your 3:10 comment gets right down to it:

    “Confession consists of two parts. One is that we confess our sins. The other is that we receive the absolution, that is, forgiveness, from the pastor as from God himself and by no means doubt but firmly believe that our sins are thereby forgiven before God in heaven (Timothy J. Wengert: A Contemporary Translation of Luther’s Small Catechism; Augsburg Fortress PUB 1994, p.49).”

    In case it’s not clear, this is straight from the horse’s mouth, a quote from Martin Luther himself.

    I recommend clicking on Paul’s link in his 3:10 comment for more.

    I love these “straight from the horse’s mouth” quotes. It really clears things up.

    Like

  77. JA said:
    “Lydia: But what do you say about pastors who are getting a paycheck from tithes but who are true shepherds and do not lord over their congregation?”

    My response:
    When I was a young teen, I attended the Church of the Nazarene down the road from where we lived (Walking distance about 6 blocks).

    Our pastor was an electrician during the week, and available for counsel in the late afternoon to early evenings. In addition, there was a parsonage 10 feet from the church side door for his living quarters for him and his family.

    I don’t know what he got paid in tithes, but I am sure that it was a very small amount.

    Not only that, Shannon H @ 10:30am tells it as it was at the church I attended, too.

    The mind set that I learned as a KID, was that tithing was for care, maintenance, and bills of the building, Bibles, pens, pencils, etc., the occasional pot luck, church camp, etc., etc., and a stipend for the pastor…not a paycheck, as our pastor had a full time job outside of pastoring.

    Small town…small church, in an area that had various churches in the Yakima Valley.

    Ed

    Like

  78. A Mom said: “I love these “straight from the horse’s mouth” quotes. It really clears things up.”

    It may be clearing things up, but it’s also making me angry thinking about the bill of goods we have been sold.

    Like

  79. As far as exiting goes, at the last church we went to, the pastor told everyone that if anyone were to leave the church, we were obligated to have a discussion with him about why. Then, he could talk to us about whether or not it was a good idea for us to leave. We were not officially members as the church didn’t “do” membership. We walked out the door and sent an email. I wasn’t about to endure sitting and listening to him question us or potentially yell at us.

    Like

  81. Here is something funny:

    JA,
    You had said:
    Ok, in a note on SharperIron someone quoted that in order to put someone in church discipline, it requires 2/3rds of the members approval. Leeman says CHBC is congregational. I wonder how Dever was able to excommunicate 256 members with 2/3 congregational approval. Is excommunication the same as church discipline? Would excommunication also require 2/3rds member approval?”

    My reply:

    That is a great way to exit a church!! Do something that will get you excommunicated. Pay people to vote for you. Anything to just EXIT.

    So what if you get kicked out? The Ends justifies the means.

    I am laughing at all of this stuff. 9Marks sounds like a bad comedy skit on Saturday Night Live.

    Like

  82. Whoa, and this:

    “The state’s representative authority, we said in chapter one, is seen most clearly in its ability to end a person’s life. Likewise, the church’s representative authority in Christ’s kingdom is seen most clearly in its ability to remove a person from citizenship in Christ’s kingdom. In both cases, the full extent of institutional authority is indicated by the power to decisively end a person’s membership, through death in one case and excommunication in the other. ”

    Maybe I ought not be concerned about the 9Marks connection with my former church. It’s all lining up perfectly as Control Freak Churches (CFC).

    This is beyond control freak, Julie Anne. Let’s just get this out in the open and say what these people are saying is they have the power to revoke an individual’s salvation by removing him/her from Christ Himself since there is no distinction between being in His kingdom and being in Him. What he says here goes beyond stating a conclusion about a person’s salvation arrived at by observation and causes them to become one by virtue of the church’s (by which they mean leadership of said church) authoritative pronouncement.

    If they mean “the church’s…ability to remove a person from citizenship in Christ’s kingdom” to be taken as saying something else then they need to change their language.

    Like

  84. “Nor by remission of sins does the Lord only once for all elect and admit us into the Church, but by the same means he preserves and defends us in it. For what would it avail us to receive a pardon of which we were afterwards to have no use? That the mercy of the Lord would be vain and delusive if only granted once, all the godly can bear witness; for there is none who is not conscious, during his whole life, of many infirmities which stand in need of divine mercy. And truly it is not without cause that the Lord promises this gift specially to his own household, nor in vain that he orders the same message of reconciliation to be daily delivered to them. Wherefore, as during our whole lives we carry about with us the remains of sin, we could not continue in the Church one single moment were we not sustained by the uninterrupted grace of God in forgiving our sins. On the other hand, the Lord has called his people to eternal salvation, and therefore they ought to consider that pardon for their sins is always ready. Hence let us surely hold that if we are admitted and ingrafted into the body of the Church, the forgiveness of sins has been bestowed, and is daily bestowed on us, in divine liberality, through the intervention of Christ’s merits, and the sanctification of the Spirit.

    To impart this blessing to us, the keys have been given to the Church (Mt. 16:19; 18:18). For when Christ gave the command to the apostles, and conferred the power of forgiving sins, he not merely intended that they should loose the sins of those who should be converted from impiety to the faith of Christ;531 but, moreover, that they should perpetually perform this office among believers. This Paul teaches, when he says that the embassy of reconciliation has been committed to the ministers of the Church, that they may ever and anon in the name of Christ exhort the people to be reconciled to God (2 Cor. 5:20). Therefore, in the communion of saints our sins are constantly forgiven by the ministry of the Church, when presbyters or bishops, to whom the office has been committed, confirm pious consciences, in the hope of pardon and forgiveness by the promises of the gospel, and that as well in public as in private, as the case requires.”

    John Calvin (CI 4.1. 21,22)

    Like

  85. Goodnight all. I am going to snuggle up beside Susan and read more Calvin until I fall asleep. Think it not a strange ritual.

    Like

  87. Julie Anne – Yes, right here in good ol’ Beaverton. *sigh* That church had potential. We visited other churches in the area after that, but that was the last church we attended. That was over 3 years ago.

    Did you know Solid Rock is very complimentarian? We were there the Sunday that the pastor preached that women could not be leaders in the church because of the Jezebel mentioned in Revelation. I was fuming mad and my husband had wary eyes on me during the entire service. I made it known that we would never be setting foot in there again. It just made me sad to see all of those young women and men soaking all that up.

    Like

  88. I’m not surprised, Kathi. I know quite a few people who currently go there and that fits their background. I’ve had a couple people e-mail me about their experiences there. It wouldn’t be a good fit for me.

    Like

  89. Well, the pastor basically said, if you don’t agree with us, too bad. That’s how it is here. Several people from Beaverton Christian left before we did to go there, which I find a bit unusual because BCC was not that authoritarian. We have friends who keep asking us to join them at Solid Rock. I always ask if they’ve changed their views of women in ministry. They always tell me “no,” and I reply the same.

    A few of the younger couples who went to our last church (that I talked about before) go to Solid Rock. That surprises me too. I honestly don’t see how/why those views draw them in.

    Like

  91. It is quite the “hipster” church. You certainly get a show with beautiful, smiling people in the front. I admit to critiquing the pastor on the clothes he wore and how he over-accentuated words. Yes, we were in a very cynical stage at that point.

    Like

  93. Yesterday at 8:52 Jonathan Leeman states that, ” in Genesis 1:28, God places authority into the hands of human beings.” Actually, what God granted according to this verse was dominion, not authority, and the dominion was granted over fish, birds and other living things–which does not appear to anticipate the domination of other humans. It just makes me angry that anybody would confuse dominion with authority. It is bad enough that these self appointed and self proclaimed spiritual “betters” seek to regulate Christian relationships with authority rather than with agape love. Worse, when you look at their actions in all too many cases, the reality is that Mr. Leeman, in misquoting Scripture, essentially gets it right. Any organization or so called pastor that would attempt to regulate whether or not you can leave their organized religious institution (which is NOT the same as the Kingdom of God) is attempting to exercise dominion–not just authority.

    Then there is this: At http://www.9marks.org/blog/what-are-keys-kingdom Mr. Leeman takes the position that “Christ does mean for Christians to submit to the oversight of local churches by virtue of their citizenship in his kingdom.” Well, we all know that we are instructed to submit to one another, but that works in both directions, and nowhere in the Bible can you find the commandment to submit to the oversight of an institution calling itself a local church. This is an enslaving lie from the very pit of Hell.

    Well, two can play at this game. As a member of the Body of Christ and of the priesthood of believers, and exercising the authority and dominion concomitant therewith, I hereby excommunicate Jonathan Leeman, Mark Dever, CJ Mahaney, Al Mohler and John Piper from the body of Christ. Ridiculous? No more Ridiculous than Mr. Leeman’s claim that the “church’s” representative authority includes the ability to remove a person from citizenship in Christ’s kingdom. I’m sorry, but any “church” claiming that kind of authority is a prostitute daughter of Spiritual Babylon, pure and simple. I relish the thought of the day of her destruction.

    Like

  94. Oh, and by the way, the dominion God granted over the earth was granted to EVE as well as to Adam. Guess God forgot to check with the Patriarchists, complementarians and other hyper-conservative and fundamentalist apologists.

    Like

  95. Oh come on Paul, You know you “misunderstood” Calvin. You cannot take his own words at face value. (wink) After all, he had magistrates to carry out his vision.

    How many times have I been told I did not understand what Mohler, Piper, Dever, Mahaney, Calvin, Luther, etc, etc were really saying?

    These guys have been trying to get this church discipline thing into the SBC for many years. They started very small with just cleaning off the membership rolls and got a resolution passed at the convention. It was the first move….get people to agree on small things that are common sense. I would recommend everyone read Quiet Revolution by Ernest Reisinger to get a feel for how deceptive that whole movement really is.

    Like

  96. ‘It is bad enough that these self appointed and self proclaimed spiritual “betters” seek to regulate Christian relationships with authority rather than with agape love.”

    When you start with authority as the foundational premise for that doctrine it can only be mapped to everything else. Authority is inherent in Calvin’s ST. Never mind those 58 “one anothers” in the NT, or submitting to one another, or no lording it over as the gentiles do, etc, etc. Those did not apply to Calvin, either. He knew best for others.

    Like

  97. I think I’m going to go through this thread one more time and start tweeting key phrases. I can’t believe how worked up I got over this yesterday – – thinking of the impact 9Marks has on churches – that people will type in their zip code in the “find a church” looking for churches with church leaders to rule over them. They may not realize this, but that is what is precisely what can happen.

    Like

  98. JA, I’d like to make an observation. This isn’t a one-off CON thing.

    I’m not looking at heart matters anymore. I’m looking at what they say & comparing it to their actions. And their beliefs MATCH UP with their actions. They may spin it, pretty it up, soft-peddle, make it sound nice, but if you peel the layers off the onion, what they do is based firmly on the core of their belief.

    The more I read “directly from the horse’s mouth” quotes from 9Marks website (thx JA), Mr. Leeman (thx Diane), Calvin, Luther (thx Paul), Mohler (thx JA), Piper the clearer it becomes that the actions are consistent with their words, are defended, will continue & should NOT surprise us anymore. We need to understand this very important truth. Their actions are driven by their beliefs. All of these people hold to the same core beliefs:

    1. God-given authority chain of command
    2. “Parent to child” view of pastor to congregant relationship (not brother to sister, servant to servant)
    3. Church discipline, when boiled down means the elders/pastor decides who is born again, saved, going to heaven or hell
    4. Permanence of marriage

    For instance, we can’t believe CJ is treated differently while under “discipline” (pride is very serious in the Bible). We don’t understand why they’ve circled the wagons around SGM & CJ & not the kids (now adults? & their families). But we should not be surprised at all, because authority & chain of command is most important. They are following their rules. CJ is above all congregants.

    What does this list of 4 core beliefs (all very “Biblical”) have in common? They all are authority & chain of command related. I’m sure we could add more to the list.

    What we need to wake up & realize is how far above pastors & elders are, & how far below congregants are in this type of “church” structure. This goes beyond even a parent to child relationship. This “church” model is a master to slave relationship. We are to be slaves to none other than Christ himself.

    Like

  99. Oh but JA, it is just a bulletin board. They are not responsible for abusive churches….but that negates the fact their 9Marks methods ARE abusive. They are just responsible for promoting them like they did with Mahaney/SGM. The child molester protectors.

    These guys have no moral credibility. I will certainly be glad when more people figure that out and the money dries up for them.

    Like

  100. The more I read “directly from the horse’s mouth” quotes from 9Marks website (thx JA), Mr. Leeman (thx Diane), Calvin, Luther (thx Paul), Mohler (thx JA), Piper the clearer it becomes that the actions are consistent with their words, are defended, will continue & should NOT surprise us anymore. We need to understand this very important truth. Their actions are driven by their beliefs”

    Bingo!

    The problem is that their doctrine is so shadowy, mystical and deterministic/dualistic that once you accept it, you are sucked in to all the confusing and contradictory explanations. It is strange that more folks do not question the foundational premise of a determinist god and dualism concerning humans. I think there has been so much soft determinism that people miss it. I know I did for a short while. I thought this doctrine was the answer to cheap grace. But in reality it is “limited grace” so I now understand that part. Also, I read a lot of history and this doctrine has a bloody dark history of evil in practice. Now that those methods are illegal, the use of censorship, shame, coercion, deception, etc are used to amass followers. If you look at a trajectory of history, this doctrine comes on strong and then either dies out or goes liberal. Think of what happened to the Puritans. Their descendants, for the most part, became Unitarians. The PCA is very liberal and into social justice ignoring the determinist god of their founder. You will always have small pockets of it but you cannot have large movements of it that last without the coercion. Calvinism is not “applicable” to life unless you are willing to navel gaze the Gospel and wait around for Jesus to obey for you. The worst part is that some who get sucked in young have a serious crisis of faith because their only paradigm of God is the determinism. So they completely walk away.

    A cruel God makes a cruel man–Thomas Paine.

    What a true statement if there ever was one.

    The best thing that has ever happened is that it is getting a good debate in the public square of the internet by the peasants. This is a first in history. Not only were people not allowed to question it in the past but when it became legal those questions were contained. The internet has changed that.

    Like

  101. Ok, so help me out here. The comments in here are a goldmine of information, but they are not going to show up in search engines like they would if they were in an article. Case in point, I took an excellent comment from an ex-wife of a pedophile, made it into a new article, used key words in the title so that it would show up in Google searches. That article has been read by a LOT of people long after it was published and gets hits daily from keyword searches: wife of pedophile, married to a pedophile, etc. Last time I checked it was the #1 entry in Google search engines.

    I could do the same idea with this article: http://www.9marks.org/blog/what-are-keys-kingdom – using keywords in the article title. I just hate to see all of these good comments get buried and hidden from search engines and especially from people who have an inkling of what is going on, but would really benefit from the conversation yesterday. Does anyone have any other thoughts or ideas? This really fits with the whole purpose I see of SSB – a sounding board projects thoughts/ideas/words out to a larger audience.

    Like

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)