Protests at Abortion Clinics: Does it work? Is there another alternative?

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Earlier, I shared with you the goings on of Chuck O’Neal, and his church Beaverton Grace Bible Church (BGBC) regarding his method of “evangelizing” at the abortion clinic, Lovejoy Surgicenter in Portland, Oregon (The Legal Rights of Christians vs Mercy and Love of Christ).

I had a bit of conversation with a BGBC member via a news article in the comment section:  Lovejoy Surgicenter Protesters Post Video of WW Reporter on their Website

Here was my question:

Lori – Have you offered $$ or housing to take care of their babies? If not, why not?

“Peppermnt Patty”, another member, replied to my question.  I’ve included it below to show their rationale:

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Screen shot 2013-08-02 at 8.23.33 AM

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Screen shot 2013-08-02 at 8.23.19 AM

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A young woman, apparently a clinic worker, was found holding this sign in response to BGBC’s street evangelism efforts.  Screen shot 2013-08-02 at 11.06.30 AM

“Beaverton Grace Bible Church Intimidates Women” – Let’s think this through.  Would a clinic worker spend the time to make up a sign like this and hold it outside the clinic for no reason?  Probably not. The common theme among all the news reports, from neighbors, business owners, passersby, is that Chuck O’Neal/BGBC is creating a nuisance around the Lovejoy Surgicenter.  And they call it love.

In the video I watched, O’Neal addressed the woman holding the sign.  He used a megaphone and videotaped the exchange.  Does BGBC intimidate?  I’d feel intimidated if someone was talking to me through a megaphone and recording the conversation.  Here are O’Neal’s words to the woman holding the sign:

“If you’re a woman who murders children, ma’am, or aids in the murder of children, then I definitely would want you intimidated, that you wouldn’t do that. But our purpose is not to intimidate you. Our purpose is to love you and to warn you of the wrath to come.”

“You can stand here and be defiant of the cross, but one day you will stand before god and your defiance will end and your knee will bow and you’ll confess Jesus Christ as Lord, only He’ll be your Lord and judge and He will cast you out into eternal judgment.” (Source)

 

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Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this:

to look after orphans and widows in their distress

and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

 James 1:27

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Reader Ed Chapman asked some great questions:

As I said above somewhere, Chuck isn’t convincing anyone to not have the abortion. All he is doing is stirring up trouble.

So, since we know that protesting outside of an abortion clinic isn’t producing any positive results, maybe we need to find another way to approach the issue, rather than to figure out different means of protest. How many lives are really changed based on Christians protesting an abortion clinic? The world thinks that Christians are a bunch of hypocrites anyway. Have we proven the world wrong? Do we really hold the moral high ground?

 

How can we reach these women who are in the crisis of an unplanned pregnancy?  Is there another way that won’t disrupt a neighborhood’s noise level, won’t affect the surrounding businesses,  won’t force city officials to look up civil laws on discrimination and access, won’t create a media circus, won’t cause shame and embarrassment to people?  I think there is and I’d like to show you another ministry idea that is yielding positive results, as in real lives saved and in the sharing of the gospel.

I read about such a group in an article a few months ago, How Some Kids With A Van Are Changing The Pro-Life Movement.  David Pomerantz and Joe Baker, after seeing the very positive results of Expectant Mother Care (EMC) in Manhattan, decided to adopt the EMC model and form the ministry, “Save the Storks.”

EMC had a bus equipped with a sonogram machine. By approaching women outside the clinic with the offer of free help, with no mention of a pro-life ideology, they were able to see a staggering success rate. In fact, by their estimate, about 70% of women who got on the bus for a sonogram decided not to abort. In one day, they saw nine women decide on life for their children.

They did some simple math, and realized that if this success continued, 15 to 25 women a week, or about 800 a year, would choose life.

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Van 2 from top with girls-1

Save the Stork van works as a mobile pregnancy center

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So, how does it work?

Here’s what happens: a woman is walking up to an abortion clinic. She is approached by Dave or Daryl or another member of Save the Storks.

“Hi, how are you? Would you like a free ultrasound?”

This is the approach. There is no dangling rosary, no graphic pamphlet, no doom-and-gloom. Just an offer of free help from a non-threatening, friendly, smiling young person.  (Source)

Van 3

What I love about this approach is that these volunteers are not embarrassing or shaming anyone. They are offering real help.  A woman can then walk to the van in a nice environment as she is offered an ultrasound, hope, and care.  If a woman decides to choose life for her baby, Save the Storks is already connected with local pregnancy resource centers to provide real and practical help (financial aid, attorney referrals or adoption, baby equipment, maternity clothes, etc).

Save the Storks recently published a video describing their ministry:

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Not only is Save the Stork reaching out to pregnant moms, their ministry extends to even the staff at the abortion clinic.  I found tis information at the Save the Stork website:

We desire to show Christ’s love and compassion to every person we come in contact with, whether it’s the abortion-minded mother, the abortion doctor, or a security guard. Through a partnership with And Then There Were None, we are able to offer a three-month financial grant to any abortion clinic employee who wants to leave the industry. We don’t yell in anger, we ache with grief. Because of this, we stand with open arms and offer hope and grace to those who take part in performing abortions.

This sure seems like a great alternative to abortion protesting.   I hope more ideas like this take off.  It would also be great to see churches team up with efforts like this to provide long-term assistance for single moms who need to go to school in order to find better jobs to provide for their family, childcare for the life they chose to keep, housing, etc.

If the Save the Stork method is saving lives and abortion protesting is not producing the numbers, then we really ought to question why the protesting method of “evangelizing” is even done.  Who is it benefiting?

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114 comments on “Protests at Abortion Clinics: Does it work? Is there another alternative?

  1. I agree with you 100% Julie Ann. If I may I would like to tell a story I have told on my blog and in comments, but is the only approach I have ever used on the subject of abortion.

    I had a friend whose daughter was pregnant years ago. This friend was wanting to encourage her daughter to have an abortion as the daughter was a teen and unmarried, yet my friend, who is and was a wonderful person, was born out of wedlock to a young teen mom.

    I told my friend that if her mother would have aborted her, her husband would have been deprived a great wife, her children a wonderful mom, and me a good friend who also made me laugh.

    She thought about this and her daughter had the baby, married the father, and had a couple more children. She is a great mom, this friend loves her grandchildren to pieces, and an abortion was not done. It was a big win/win. Now my friend is not a Christian because of it, but I’m still praying as I haven’t seen her in a few years.

    This certainly works better and I believe is more Biblical than spewing out verses and carrying signs. That doesn’t bring people to Christ and it certainly doesn’t change anyone on the inside but for the worse.

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  2. If the Save the Stork method is saving lives and abortion protesting is not producing the numbers, then we really ought to question why the protesting method of “evangelizing” is even done. Who is it benefiting?

    Those who like to be seen by Men?

    Actually, BGBC’s antics remind me of something I observed when I was in the pro-life movement some 30 years ago. Every Pro-Life group had their own agenda (which usually didn’t overlap with anyone else’s) which was The One True Way to be Pro-Life. If You Weren’t On Our Bus, You Were a Stooge of the Abortionists — “DIE, HERETIC!”

    Specifically, BGBC’s antics remind me of Operation Rescue’s — if you weren’t OR and blocking abortuaries with OR, and going to jail for it, YOU WEREN’T REALLY PRO-LIFE AND GOD *WILL* HOLD *YOU* ACCOUNTABLE!!!!!

    There’s a reason I started keeping a REAL low profile…

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  3. What a great story, Debbie. Thanks for sharing it. I was thinking a bit about the word respect and how that is a key word that protestors say – – that moms who abort their babies aren’t respecting life. I would say the same to these guys who shout at people: that is not respectful of life, either. It is not respectful to shout. It is not respectful to force your ideas onto someone else. It is not respectful to disrupt the noise level in a neighborhood or interfere with the normal goings on in a community by creating disruptions. It is respectful to talk with a mom privately, to ask how you can assist her, etc. Why is this such a difficult concept?

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  4. What an incredible story (and witness), Debbie! I’ve always known you to be such a godly woman of integrity, of all I’ve read from you on-line. Praise the Lord.

    Whether street preaching or protesting abortion clinics, picket signs with Bible verses, protests in the streets, yelling out statements from a sidewalk: even if one is “on the side of the right,” these are not for good, biblical Christian witness. We cannot point to even one example of engaging people with the gospel in such a manner in the book of Acts, when the early believers were engaging their pagan culture. Why would we? Do we not trust the Holy Spirit?

    Julie Anne, you hit the nail on the head, and respect is key, I think. People didn’t behave in such a manner when I was being led to faith in Christ, and if they had, it wouldn’t have worked. Though my parents, and especially my dad — since he is the one who was instrumental in me coming to faith — did not approve of the manner in which I was living my life, he respected me enough to talk with me rationally, logically, calmly. His quiet assurance of who Christ is and how God conducts Himself through the Spirit was very persuasive. May we do likewise! Great post!

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  5. I have to wonder why “Peppermint Patty” couldn’t answer your question…

    Great stories, by the way.

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  6. I love Save the Storks, have for a while. What do you all think of 40 Days for Life? There is sign-holding, but not of an intimidating nature, and they STRESS non-confrontational, non-violent. They don’t even call it protesting, just praying in front of the abortion clinic…with or without signs. You’re encouraged to NOT engage with anyone, unless they talk to you first, then you are armed with info on the local pregnancy center and encouraged to pray with them. According to their info, they are seeing success….closures of abortion clinics because women are NOT having abortions there (the money-maker “treatment”). Now, are women not having abortions because they are “intimidated” that there are groups of people milling about the center? Or is it deeper, more spiritual than that? Anyways. Wondering if anyone else here has had dealings with 40 days…you guys have me looking for wolves EVERYWHERE! 🙂

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  7. With this minister, it’s all about control, wanting to be in power. In the church, outside, everywhere. He tries to get control by intimidation. I’m sure many women going there have misgivings about aborting their baby and antics like his are only pushing them in through the door. Who wants to listen to anyone yelling at them to do something? It’s a natural reaction to buck that. And who would ever want to be a Christian when they see so-called Christians acting that way?

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  8. I have so many posts on SSB to catch up on.

    The “Save The Storks” approach reminded me of the ministry that many of my midwives were involved in. As part of their training, many of them work with crisis pregnancy centers offering their services at reduced cost or, in some cases, free of charge for women who decided to have their babies. It was one way they felt they could share the compassionate care of Christ to women facing a difficult circumstance. One older midwife even worked with adoption services for women who chose to have their babies but did not feel able to care for or raise them. I have generally found that many women who view midwifery as a ministry are likely to serve in this way.

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  9. Julie Anne, I think my thought led to your thought because I wasn’t thinking about them trying to get away from the protestors. I was just thinking how people often tend to decide to think the opposite when someone is yelling at them to do something because who wants to agree with an intimidator? And that makes them decide to go through the door. But that’s an excellent point you made!

    I really hope this man sees these comments, but I’m afraid he’d need a Paul-like experience to ever change.

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  10. If I was on Twitter I’d reply to Tony Miano by saying, “Who’s blaming Chrisitians trying to stop them? It’s the way they’re trying to stop them that is having the opposite effect.” Almost makes me want a Twitter account.

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  11. Oh, I’m sure he is looking at the comments. CON recently love-bombed Miano in an interview on Miano’s podcast, claiming that Miano convicted him that he wasn’t doing enough to save the lives of the unborn. I think Shannon is right – people hurry into the clinic rather than be shouted at or videotaped.

    Miano is going to speak at CON’s evangelism conference in Beaverton laster this month. I guess he’s not bothered by CON’s behavior here:

    https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/07/26/beaverton-grace-bible-church-and-pastor-chuck-oneal-a-year-after-they-lost-the-defamation-lawsuit/

    It is just like the CJ and TGC stuff. CON has the right “doctrine” or “evangelism” techniques and so they cover their eyes to other obvious behavior unbecoming of a pastor.

    When CON and Miano talk about number of “lives” impacted, I think they are really meaning numbers of live hits on their YouTube videos. Miano has the same pattern as CON. When he was arrested in Wimbledon – he went on a Twitter campaign tagging media to draw attention to him, just like CON went on a Twitter campain drawing attention to his recent “persecution” in Portland. I got this gig figured out.

    When we were at BGBC, about a month before the Steps 4 Life, he would start soilcitin for money and try to be the biggest church donor to pregnancy resource centers. The focus was on being the church who gave the most, not on the lives of the unborn. It was SELF-focus. Then they’d make a big deal about walking the 2-mile jaunt around Portland, pictures, matching shirts. There was no effort from the pulpit to involve people in practical help: pregnancy resource centers, help single moms, etc, throughout the year. It seems to be a new platform for him to try to clean his suing-pastor image.

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  12. Julie Anne, as a staunch Pro-Choice person, I definitely agree that options and help (and the more, the better) should be readily available. The kind of ‘in your face’ intimidation by protesters does nothing but stir up people’s emotions and draw negative attention to these same people. Personally, I’m not the only woman who feels that this is a women’s issue and men – no matter who they think they represent – have no business in OUR business.

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  13. “Oy, that was a JA rant – lol. I think I need to step away and clean a bathroom or paint my toenails or something.”

    You can clean our bathroom. Although that would require travel to the Midwest…

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  14. Tony Miano’s response is typical of those who are incapable of engaging in any kind of meaningful dialogue.

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  15. “Only the Law of God can break thru stony, cold hearts and lead people away from the flames of hell.” ???
    Too bad nobody told Jesus that the law was already sufficient for salvation before He went through all that trouble of dying for us all. (Ok, sarcasm off now.)
    I’ve noticed how they keep referring to “law and gospel”. Interestingly, just the gospel was enough for Paul to preach.
    If they want to talk about breaking laws, how about the new command Christ gave: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” ? How many of us, if we found ourselves in a situation where abortion seemed to be the answer, would want to be treated with love and respect and given some help and other real options?

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  16. What the action? A big mouth yapping. What’s lacking? Wisdom.

    Many men & women are quietly working behind the scenes at Women’s Centers throughout the country. They prefer a quiet life, not the spotlight. They act in practical ways to help these women & their families. The results are real. God’s work is getting done. And that’s how HE gets the glory. Pretty simple.

    Thanks for the post about Save the Storks. From their website, “If an employee of an abortion clinic decides to leave the abortion industry through A.T.T.W.N. they will be provided with spiritual, emotional, and legal support. They will also be granted up to three months of financial pay for just resigning. This is huge!”

    Now that’s wisdom in action.

    http://savethestorks.com/about-us-mobile-ultrasound-units/partners/

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  17. See, folks, this is what we were talking about in last thread about church authorities and church discipline. Here’s this yee-haw pastor who “put” us in “church discipline” weeks after we voluntarily left his church, completely against the church by-laws. This is a pastor who thinks he OWNS his congregants. There was not ONE meeting telling us of any discipline issues. Believe me, if there was any church discipline issue, he’d have stored it in library of recorded conversations that he has stashed away. Why hasn’t it surfaced? Because there was no church discipline. It is a figment of his imagination.

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  18. JA,

    You were in his neck of the woods. That’s how it works there.

    9Marks is pretty upfront, to their credit, I might add. We should understand fully what they expect & how things work.

    You are not the crazy one. Continue to sound the alarm. People are running out of the forest & they need help. We stand with you.

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  19. I think we need to blow the bullhorn more on this authoritarianism – this pastor-owning congregant thing, holding them hostage, not allowing them to go to other churches, slandering them publicly. I’m thinking there are civil violations going on here. This is not just a”spiritual” issue.

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  20. JA said, “I’m thinking there are civil violations going on here. This is not just a ”spiritual” issue.”

    Agreed. Because of the internet & these blogs, the information, the truth of how things are done & run is getting out there. The result:

    1. People know what to look for & what to avoid.

    2. People are coming forward, they are surfacing. They are telling their stories. There have been many types of violations, which is awful. They need help with next steps.

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  21. Exactly, A Mom!

    What we need is to pool together attorneys who understand these civil violations. It doesn’t necessarily need to be someone who is a Believer, but it seems that either there are more and more cases or people are coming out of the woodworks because of the abuse stories they are finding on the internet.

    At any one time, I am probably involved (via e-mail/phone support) in a handful of cases that could involve a lawsuit with tyrannical church leaders.

    Who knows how many other bloggers are getting similar stories. That is why it will be so helpful to pool together our resources.

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  22. JA said, “…it seems that either there are more and more cases or people are coming out of the woodworks because of the abuse stories they are finding on the internet.”

    I think it’s BOTH.

    It’s “rubber hits the road” time for the rest of us. We all need to get to work & help out in the ways we are able to help.

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  23. Listening to Regent Radio yesterday and today. Seminary Class: Pastoral Ethics. Today’s recorded class, Part 11 of 15, with Dr. Ross Hastings, deals with Abortion, etc. Some crucial statistics.

    Highly recommend people to listen to this through their day. If you have minimum time, click in around the 24 min. mark.

    Hastings makes the point that the task of the Christian church is not ‘vigilantism’. He also gives some thoughtful insights as to what churches could and should do and those efforts which people should avoid.

    http://www.regentradio.net/

    This class will be audio available for the day posted only. The next day’s topic
    is the next session in this course.

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  24. JA said “There was no effort from the pulpit to involve people in practical help”, yes we definitely experienced this in the situation with our disabled child.

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  25. You are not the crazy one. Continue to sound the alarm.

    “There will come a time when men will go mad. And they will lay hands on the sane among them, saying ‘You are not like Us! You Must Be Mad!'”
    — one of the Desert Fathers my writing partner likes to quote

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  26. Pro-choice – i wish we could ask the babies what their choice would be…

    “I notice that everyone who advocates birth control has been careful to have been born first…”
    — attr to Will Rogers

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  27. I transcribed part of the audio from the Pastor Ethics course by Ross Hastings, linked above. He offers how the church can be compassionately involved. Here are some statistics to ponder:

    David P. Gushee and Glen H. Stassen have co-authored the book: “Kingdom Ethics: Following Jesus in Contemporary Context.” They make this comment:

    “Abortion arises almost exclusively as a result of crisis in the life of the one or ones who face this question. Here we leave aside that small minority of women who have abortions as a repeat experiences . . . The more common pattern is that the issue of abortion arises in the midst of, as one of the most severe crises that they will face in their lives. Most think: I know that I shouldn’t consider abortion, but in this crisis, I feel trapped. Abortion is my only way out. The precise nature of that crisis varies widely.

    It is mistaken to assume that abortion is solely the problem of unmarried women or teenagers. As of 1996, women between the ages of 20 and 29 are paying for 55% of abortions. Fully, 20% of all abortions are obtained by married women. Though crisis pregnancies occur among teenagers, they also occur among married 35 year olds. It is important to be involved in the context.

    Anti-abortion activists frequently charge that most abortions occur for reasons of personal convenience or cavalier self-regard, yet this is to paint with far too broad a brush. It is, in fact, a heartless charge if applied indiscriminately to all who choose abortion.”

    Important research has been done by Frederica Matthewes-Green, in her book “Real Choices: Listening to Women, Looking for Alternatives to Abortion.” She indicates that:

    “The central driving force behind abortions resides in the network of relationships in which the women are embedded. Put simply, if a pregnant woman cannot find in her intimate circle the love and support that she needs to carry her pregnancy to term, she is likely to seek an abortion. Such pregnant women have some idea regarding the trauma that abortion will bring to their emotions and their bodies. They are not eager to invite this trauma. Yet, in the days of crisis, they come to realize that one thing worse is the threat of rejection or even violence at the hands of those whose love means the most to them.”

    This researcher has poignant and even enraging stories of women who were given this simple choice between abortion or rejection. Such stories demonstrate many powerless women are coerced into obtaining abortions. How contrary such sad tales are to the myth of: abortion on demand as a major aspect of female-autonomy and self-determination.

    It can underwrite male sexual predation and irresponsibility and leave the burden of dealing with unwanted pregnancies in the hands and bodies of women alone.”

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  28. Ric – it’s a zygote(or cluster of cells), not a baby. Like the egg you had for breakfast – you wouldn’t call IT a chicken would you??

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  29. carmen, no. It’s a baby. we’ve lost 2, and have 9; 1 through adoption. many believe as you’ve expressed, but they are all babies. some of these babies that doctors (sic) tried to kill in womb are living and breathing adults. If you google it, you can read their stories. I don’t think one of them would have preferred to have perished in the womb, though the doctors (sic) tried.

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  30. Carmen and Ric,

    Ok, so some of us are pro-choice, others pro-life. No problem. But, lets look at how the Bible states things. Note that I said “no problem”, too.

    Carmen,
    Life does indeed begin at conception. I could go thru it in fine detail from Bible. But, I will give just one minor example, also from the Bible, that is easy to understand. The body is dirt (sperm is dirt, egg is dirt), but the spirit gives the body life. When the pregnant Mary, pregnant with Jesus, went to see her cousin, the pregnant Elizabeth, pregnant with John the Baptist, that so-called fetus LEAPED FOR JOY at the presence of the so-called fetus of Jesus of Nazareth. But like I said, I can go into mega detail about your spirit residing in your body that gives your body life, and that spirit is “planted” in dirt (body), and hence, you become a “living” “SOUL”.

    Ric,
    If you read the book of Job, you will see WHAT he understands about the unborn, as he gives DETAIL in spiritual terms. He wishes that he was still born (died in the womb). Why? Well, I will let you read it.

    We are a spirit dressed in a body. If the babies body dies, where does the spirit of the baby go? HEAVEN. We all die. I am not trying to be insensitive here, but, babies are not being murdered. There is a per-requisite to murder in order to make it to be murder. I don’t see that at all. It is not in any legal statute stating that it is murder. No one can be brought up on charges of murder. What I see is ignorant people who do not want to take the advice coming from NASTY FOUL MOUTHED Christians pointing fingers at those who are outside the church. We are only to judge those who are INSIDE the church.

    The compassion coming from this Save the Stork foundation is CHRIST compassionate.

    If we are going to do that, we might as well go everywhere, and scream out the following, while pointing fingers:
    1. Thief
    2. Liar
    3. Sabbath Breaker
    4. Covetter

    Is aborting a child more of a sin than someone telling a “white lie”? NO. We are NOT to judge these people. However, we are to judge Christians who do those things.

    That is not how Jesus intended for us to GO YE and make disciples.

    Ed

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  31. Carmen, an egg by itself is just an egg. A sperm by itself is just a sperm. Put those two together, the sperm fertilizes the egg…it is no longer just an egg.

    I heard George Carlin discussing this…if it’s a chicken, it’s an omelet, if its a woman, its an abortion. It’s funny as a joke, but not so funny in real life.

    Ed

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  32. Ed,
    You said, “We are a spirit dressed in a body. If the babies body dies, where does the spirit of the baby go? HEAVEN. We all die. I am not trying to be insensitive here, but, babies are not being murdered.”

    So, it would stand to reason, if you are correct with this logic, that if our statutes didn’t say killing a man, say about the age of 38, was “murder,” it would be okay; its not murder because one is merely killing the body, and the persons spirit lives on to whatever eternity they may have? Is this what you intended?

    It seems your input was very interesting for the other thread where baptizing babies was discussed.

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  33. Understanding that this is a sensitive topic that brings out the passion in people on both sides, I hope we can keep the discussion closer to the topic of the original post concerning the tactics of aggressive street evangelists. A debate on the moment of the beginning of life is really ouside the scope of the blog post, and has too much potential for becoming too heated.

    Thanks for your cooperation and understanding,
    Fiat Pax

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  34. I think in certain states, killing a fetus is considered murder. I believe Ariel Castro, who kidnapped the 3 girls, was charged with murder because of purposely killing his unborn baby (starving & beating the girl so she would miscarry).

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  35. A Mom,
    In the book of Moses there is a law in regards to killing a baby in the womb based on violence to the woman. I would have to look it up. I think, I can’t remember right off hand, but I think that the penalty was a payment of money of some sort. But it was not considered murder.

    Killing and murder are two different things. Castro was certainly intending murder. He knew what he was doing.

    Ric, I will email you.

    Ed

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  36. A Mom – thanks for asking. I believe the yelling and screaming, video taping women entering clinics, and multiple ungracious acts performed by some is deplorable! What makes it worse, they are doing this in the name of Jesus! I wish it would stop, immediately. These things, as well as a host of other abuses of both Christians and non-Christians should not be. It seems when folks become so polarized on any one ‘issue’ (e.g. abortion, church leadership, submission, etc.), and this is certainly a big one IMO, they loose focus on their faith, and the Gospel.

    I also believe that when folks debate these matters, they tend to do several things, but I’ll mention one that seems prominent and especially problematic to me. Note, this is a general observation of discussions I’ve seen on SSB and other blogs. I’m not suggesting these practices are calculated nor intended by the authors. Lastly, I’ll be first to admit that I have done, and may still fall into these practices. It is my aim to not do these things as much as possible.

    With many debates, folks tend to use subtle and not so subtle hyperbole; also, I’ve seen this inflected in the messages tone (how words are assembled). Maybe this makes the author feel like their point is more valid and sets up a situation where the other party dare not disagree, or the other party’s disagreeing could be considered to commend the same extreme practice being debated and criticized. A potential outcome to this, beyond creating a very intense conversation, is creating two specific polarized positions with no in between (e.g. either “to protest abortion (like the folks who this thread is about)” or “not to protest (to ensure you are not considered extreme)”). Writers may even suggest that their is middle ground, but the hyperbole, painting the situation with a wide brush, and by the examples they share, don’t tend to backup that position (when this happens). At the end of it, if someone believes protesting is okay, then they are considered to be like the extreme protesters and must defend their own position from the extreme position they are then accused of supporting; even if they merely stand on the sidewalk and pray quietly.

    I wasn’t going to jump into the conversation. I already agree with the accurately placed criticism of what these extreme protestors are doing, and I wish they’d quit doing these deplorable things to those women. If we [Christians] can’t love the ones who are already born, then what????

    With that said, I believe protesting is right. I believe it should be done with great respect, and real love (read: actions, not just redefining what love looks like), to those women. I also believe protesting isn’t required for everyone; or maybe protesting is for certain times and seasons of life, for specific people. My wife and I did this, holding signs that were respectful so the community driving by, but clearly addressing our concern. Our sign read, “Jesus Heals and Forgives.” There were thousands more similar.

    I believe there are a multitude of solutions, and we already know what many of them are. The ones I’ll mention are general, and since human behavior is so complex, any given solution in and of itself, is also complex; so this is not an exhaustive explanation, neither with the solution mentioned nor the list as a whole.

    One solution is loving girls before they ever get pregnant; as well as the men. First, parents parenting their children in a godly way (selflessly). Another is loving your neighbor. Parents are not always going to ‘get it’, but people should help as appropriate, if possible (be on alert to these things – e.g. watching out for bullying). I’ll jump ahead past legislation and enforcement of existing laws to a time after the pregnancy, to helping out at women’s shelters and places where people receive services. Helping out at CPCs, even with something as rudimentary as mowing the lawn, fixing flower beds, or cleaning (not to mention financial support – no federal funds here). Then there is person-to-person time. One of our greatest gifts to others is time. Spend time volunteering at the CPC, or other places where pregnant women receive help. Spend time listening, then listening, and lastly, listening. Pray. And should you speak, speak as the words of God, humbly, knowing that we are all broken with feet of clay.

    Outside of the big efforts of church and para-church organizations, or private foundations, these are solutions that individuals be involved with outside of protesting. Lastly, protesting – light in the world, not under a bushel; salt in the world, with savor. But being light and salt and without forgetting that there are many sins, and we’ve all sinned; and we have a great Savior who has forgiven us much. So when protesting, it’s with humble respect for the women who are looking at terminating their pregnancy. Its with love as that trait expressed by Jesus with the woman caught in adultery, or the woman he met at the well. There is a time for speaking truth, boldly (not angrily), Jesus did such at the well, but it was done in such a fashion so as to kindle faith, not condemnation.

    I could go on, but I tend to be verbose, to a fault. 🙂 I really believe we all need to be involved with other people in this world – as friends and witnesses. I don’t believe we’ll fix this world, but we can go and make disciples, really. Not only by inviting people to church, but making disciples ourselves one-on-one. As we go out our front door, into our communities, our places of work, our stops at the 7-11 and Wall-Mart, we can make a great impact for the Gospel, a lot of times without trying, but by merely allowing relationships to grow over time. So if that guy is in a sexual relationship with a girl, or steeped in porn, we may be able to make a huge difference with a few loving words. Or, the girl, behind the counter contemplating sex with her man, or having gotten pregnant, considering an abortion. Our kind words that morning, a glimmer of the Spirit salted with the Word, may be the actions that plant seeds in the soil of her heart that’ll grow into, not only a saved baby, but two saved souls. There is much to say here, in my verboseness, but I think this is good.

    There is a lot I didn’t say, but I hope I’ve conveyed my beliefs accurately when they are read.

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  37. Hi Ric,
    Thanks. It’s good to know where you’re coming from. Sorry for prompting you if you weren’t going to jump in. I read a couple of your comments earlier in this thread, which is what made me curious. I think your comments are helpful & add to the discussion. You’re right, what we spend our time, talents & money on is what we care about.

    Ric, you said, “And should you speak, speak as the words of God, humbly, knowing that we are all broken with feet of clay.”

    I would say that none of us are perfect. However, as children of God, we are forgiven, are light & salt in the world, & are redeemed. We are new creatures in Christ, born again, messengers of God’s love & mercy. Knowing this, we will not stand outside abortion clinics yelling & treating these women horribly.

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  38. A Mom – thank you and no problem.

    Your last paragraph on 6:25 AM, yes, yes, yes, and amen! We are, and we have a great Redeemer! 🙂

    Like

  39. So, it would stand to reason, if you are correct with this logic, that if our statutes didn’t say killing a man, say about the age of 38, was “murder,” it would be okay; its not murder because one is merely killing the body, and the persons spirit lives on to whatever eternity they may have? Is this what you intended? — Ric

    There’s probably some cult somewhere who taught exactly that, and justified it as a High and Noble Act.

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  40. @chapmaned24

    “We are a spirit dressed in a body.”

    This is Gnosticism. The body is eternal; there will be a resurrection. Our bodies are not “dirt.”

    “If the babies body dies, where does the spirit of the baby go? HEAVEN.”

    Can you support from the Scriptures that *all* who die in infancy go to Heaven?

    ” I am not trying to be insensitive here, but, babies are not being murdered.”

    Yes, they are. And that is determined by God’s Law, regardless as to whether man’s law agrees with it.

    “Is aborting a child more of a sin than someone telling a “white lie”? NO. ”

    This is the “all sins are equal heresy,” which is an abomination.

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  41. @chapmaned24

    “A Mom,
    In the book of Moses there is a law in regards to killing a baby in the womb based on violence to the woman. I would have to look it up. I think, I can’t remember right off hand, but I think that the penalty was a payment of money of some sort. But it was not considered murder.”

    That’s because it was describing the accidental causing of a miscarriage (the equivalent of manslaughter), not intentional abortion/infanticide.

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  42. HUG,

    You had said:
    “There’s probably some cult somewhere who taught exactly that, and justified it as a High and Noble Act.”

    My response:
    Did David kill or murder Goliath? Was that High and Noble?

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  43. @chapmaned24

    “Did David kill or murder Goliath? Was that High and Noble?”

    David rightly killed Goliath on the battlefield. No, it was not murder. Yes, it was noble.

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  44. Nicholas said;
    ““We are a spirit dressed in a body.”
    This is Gnosticism. The body is eternal; there will be a resurrection. Our bodies are not “dirt.”
    “If the babies body dies, where does the spirit of the baby go? HEAVEN.”
    Can you support from the Scriptures that *all* who die in infancy go to Heaven?
    ” I am not trying to be insensitive here, but, babies are not being murdered.”
    Yes, they are. And that is determined by God’s Law, regardless as to whether man’s law agrees with it.
    “Is aborting a child more of a sin than someone telling a “white lie”? NO. ”
    This is the “all sins are equal heresy,” which is an abomination.

    My response:
    What denomination are you?

    We are made from the DUST of the ground. That is dirt.
    The body is not eternal. It is temporal. It is of the earth. The body that we will get at the resurrection is not made of dirt. It is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:36-50.

    Yes I can support from scriptures that all who die in infancy go to heaven.
    Deuteronomy 1:39 is one of many.

    No, there isn’t, and the law does not discuss abortion as murder.

    And finally, the wages of sin is death, whether it be a white lie, or murder.

    Again, what religion/denomination are you?

    Ed

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  45. @Ed

    I am a Lutheran. In our resurrection bodies we will be sinless and glorified, which is what the Apostle Paul is saying in the verses you cite. But we will be resurrection in real physical bodies, to live on a real, physical New Earth after this one has passed away. Do you believe or deny that?

    Deuteronomy 1:39 only refers to the children of the Israelites, and the entire passage (which you cite out of context) refers to them entering the land of Israel. It says absolutely nothing about the eternal fate of any who die in infancy, let alone “all infants go to Heaven.”

    The wages of sin being death does not make all sins equal.

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  46. So I haven’t had much time recently to comment, but I feel like commenting on this subject. Abortion is one of those complex topics. Personally, it makes me upset. It makes me upset that so many women choose abortion instead of adoption. It makes me upset that adoption resources are not as readily available to women as they should be. It makes me upset that in some places, the waiting list for people wanting to adopt infants is years long. It makes me upset that more Christian don’t support adoption (by adopting, helping to support a local adoption charity, providing respite for adoptive and foster families, etc). It makes me upset when a person choses abortion even when they are told specifically about somebody looking to adopt an infant and willing to meet to possibly work out a plan (this happened with my wife and I and the stepson of a coworker. They decided to abort even though they were told we might be interested in adopting their baby). And to the point of this post, it makes me upset when Christians stand around and yell at people in a tough situation rather than actually helping them.

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  47. I think you need to dissect 1 Cor 15:36-50 again. Earthly bodies are temporal. Spiritual bodies are not made of the dust of the ground. It is heavenly. I never said that it wouldn’t be a physical body. Yes it will be a physical body. But it sure isn’t made of the dust of the ground.

    All sins will get you to hell, my friend. Yes, all sins are equal. Any sin that violates God’s law will get you to hell. Any sin. But, as the Bible states, if you broke one law, you broke them all. That means that all sins are equal.

    Deuteronomy 1:39 is a SPIRITUAL picture of a CARNAL story.

    The PROMISED LAND that Abraham was promised is BOTH CARNAL AND SPIRITUAL.

    Who gets to go there?

    1. Those who have faith
    a. Caleb
    b. Joshua

    And

    2. Those who have no knowledge of good and evil….babies.

    You are not seeing scripture in the spiritual sense.

    Lastly, the new earth has nothing to do with our bodies. Spiritual bodies are not earthly. Please dissect 1 Cor 15:36-50 again.

    Ed

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  48. JoeJoe:

    You said:” And to the point of this post, it makes me upset when Christians stand around and yell at people in a tough situation rather than actually helping them.”

    Amen. So many of these folks act like it is about scoring points and not helping people. Their hateful spirit is very unhelpful.

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  49. Barb – Thanks for transcribing and posting Hastings’ audio. He does a great job bringing us to the reality of the crisis these women are in. Think about it. A woman in this kind of emotional crisis – – -she has one thing on her mind – – -she has an unwanted pregnancy. She thinks by going to the abortion clinic, it will solve all of her problems, but then is accosted by people shouting at her, telling her she’s a murderer, on her way to hell, etc. Now she has to deal with this verbal assault on top of what pain she’s already dealing with.

    So, in a crisis, we have a fight or flight response. Already under one crisis (pregnancy), what is the likely response of a pregnant woman when confronted with the likes of Miano/CON men? Of course it is flight. The only way to solve their new crisis (confrontation with protestors) is to choose flight – – – to escape the shouting and condemnation, they walk quickly into the building where their unborn child will be killed. They (CON/Miano) think they are loving with truth (using a megaphone and videocamera, no less). I wonder how many babies have been killed as a result of women taking “flight” from these men?

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  50. Adam’s body created from the earth, then became a “living soul” after the breath of God, not before.

    Note Gen 2:7, ” And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”

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  51. JA,
    If more men would grow a pair, and speak up for sexually abused children in the church, spiritually abused adults by authoritarian ministries, and the general lack of love in the body of Christ, then maybe so many women wouldn’t feel compelled to speak what needs to be said.

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  52. we see a precept taught here, and other locations through scripture:

    “And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that git will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”

    different levels of punishment, for sin…

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  53. JA – the author of Gentle Spirit ran into the same thing, with many of her readers and local “elders”, when her husband died. She was put off and put out. It was sad.

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  54. Ric – I first encountered it with a top pastor (who told me he was a top pastor, btw, – – – arrogant, much?) from Grace Community, John MacArthur’s church. I originally discounted it, thinking I had imagined it. But then, I spoke to another defendant who had also talked with this same pastor. I asked her how the conversation went without any leading whatsoever. She voluntarily said she felt like he was treating her like a less-than because she was a woman. She confirmed my original gut feeling. Since then, I have seen the pattern over and over again like a broken record — like they went to the same Creepy Spiritual Abuse School (CSAS) to rehearse these phrases. And I kid you not, they use the same phrase just as you read in the tweet. It disgusts me.

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  55. JA, yes, we were told not to bring our disabled child into the service as he was deemed to be a distraction. As if other people’s children are never a distraction! My point is that concern for “the least of these” needs to be demonstrated within the church as well as outside. The yelling through a megaphone is just clanging bell and sounding gong to me after my experience there. It wasn’t love I experienced, it was indifference and hate.

    I echo this comment of Ed’s “Is aborting a child more of a sin than someone telling a “white lie”? NO. We are NOT to judge these people. However, we are to judge Christians who do those things.” I humbly ask, is aborting a child more of a sin than rejecting someone because of a disability?

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  56. Some care more about being right than they do for the soul of another.

    You are so right William(pun not intended). It’s frustrating to attempt to converse on twitter to be blocked. No meaningful conversation can take place. Instead they lie out the wazoo in order to avoid confrontation concerning their misplaced thoughts.
    Meanwhile people flock to them, listening and doing as they do. Thinking as they do. It’s not Julie Anne that doesn’t know scripture or who is not a Christian. I don’t doubt their salvation, but I do doubt their typical ends justifies the means methods which they have yet to show are in scripture. Especially when compared to Christ’s ministry and 1 Corinthians 13.

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  57. wallflower: It is my understanding that CON first met Tony Miano at the CARM conference: http://carm.org/conference-portland – first week in Apr. of 2013. CON tweeted about attending the conference and also went street evangelizing. The date of the linked post was late April. When I tweeted about the post, I never tagged Tony as I typically do, so I have no idea if he knew CON’s back story.

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  58. To all the wonderful, supportive men who contribute to this blog, my comment @8:25 was in no way directed at you.

    That tweet from dmday3000 is so hurtful. These type of “men” add to the pain of every molested child, every hurting adult who has experience abuse from the “church.” How? By dismissing and showing contempt for one of the few people willing to stick her neck out to be a voice for so many of us. They can not engage Julie Anne, a spiritual abuse victim herself, because she’s a woman. They may as well be saying, “Sucks to be you!”

    Well, thank you, Julie Anne, for all of your efforts. I’ve never doubted your motives, your heart, and your love from the time I first started reading your blog. Thank you for not being silent. There are a lot of us out here in real pain because of our experiences with an abusive church, and you know the pain all too well.

    And perhaps that pain has made us all more aware of the negative consequences of even well-meaning Christians in the abortion issue. I am not fed up with my faith, but I am fed up with Christians in general. I no longer want to be associated with what passes for “Christianity” out there any more.

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  59. That tweet from dmday3000 is so hurtful. These type of “men” add to the pain of every molested child, every hurting adult who has experience abuse from the “church.” How? By dismissing and showing contempt for one of the few people willing to stick her neck out to be a voice for so many of us. They can not engage Julie Anne, a spiritual abuse victim herself, because she’s a woman. They may as well be saying, “Sucks to be you!”

    That’s because the vast majority of conservative Christian men are taught to fear women other than their wives because they may “stumble” or “lust.” They never learn how to have a non-sexual friendship with a woman, nor that they can learn much from discourse with women. And all of those messages reinforce the nonsense that women are not their equals.

    The funny thing is that they speak as if women are their intellectual inferiors, while demonstrating through their fear of lust and stumbling that they really view women as having power over them. It’s the sort of puerile nonsense that you’d expect from a teenage boy, not from a mature man that is confident and in control of himself.

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  60. @DefendTheSheep @RubySnores @pastorswife_ @TonyMiano JA where are your elders/husband in all of your discernment activities?—
    (@dmday3000) August 09, 2013

    Perhaps we should start our own SSB church, have the guys here serve as “elders”, then tell all these other “biblical” and “apostolic” men that JA has been sent out by us as a prophetess…

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  61. wallflower: Your situation exemplifies the behavior I saw. Thinking back, it makes me sad, because the leaders had us all convinced that you were the bad parents who allowed your disruptive child in the church. I had my own little one, but now I wish I would have passed my little guy off and offered you help. I’m so sorry, wallflower.

    We know, of course, of another disabled person at the church who typically had her parents and also others helping, but thinking back, you were left to tend your child without assistance. If someone is claiming to be pro-life, they should be pro-life to all, including the challenging people who cause extra time and effort. This pro-life talk is cheap if people aren’t willing to go the extra mile. They aren’t going any extra mile by videotaping themselves scaring women into the abortion mills. This is not love.

    What does love look like? Shouting spiritual truths into a megaphone outside an abortion clinic is cheap. It’s easy. It requires no commitment. It does not require getting in the trenches with the woman, assessing the real needs that are consuming her to make such a horrific choice that most likely even confuses her. Street preachers who don megaphones and videotape themselves are only looking at the spiritual side. And in doing so, they scare people away into the clinic because the women can see that they really don’t care.

    Before Jesus preached, He made sure the multitudes were fed physically. We can learn from Christ’s example of taking care of people’s pressing needs. Jesus showed practical love in action by meeting those physical needs and then preached. Would they have stayed around to hear their message if they were hungry? Do women seeking abortion stay around to listen to shouting protestors when their needs aren’t being met?

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  62. Eric said:

    Perhaps we should start our own SSB church, have the guys here serve as “elders”, then tell all these other “biblical” and “apostolic” men that JA has been sent out by us as a prophetess…

    HAHA 🙂

    Like

  63. Eric: “Perhaps we should start our own SSB church, have the guys here serve as “elders”, then tell all these other “biblical” and “apostolic” men that JA has been sent out by us as a prophetess…”

    Probably the best idea for a response to this that I have heard. Brilliant! Haha!

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  64. “Street preachers who don megaphones and videotape themselves are only looking at the spiritual side.”

    I think it’s because they want to show the world how “tough” they are on “sin” and how they “aren’t afraid” to “speak the truth in love”, because apparently that’s what matters to God the most, how tough we allegedly are to others about their “sin”…

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  65. Even if protesting, filming and using a bullhorn are defensible as protecting the lives of the unborn, I contend that this group does it for the notoriety and not out of love.

    In church, our child only came into the service so he could “sing’ with my husband. We took him out before the sermon began. Singing with his Daddy was the only way he could experience God’s love. Had anyone bothered to have a conversation with us about it, they would have known the difficulties we were facing. Instead, they wanted him to remain confined to the nursery. How much Jesus would he see there, (where I personally witnessed the young man we later found out was a sexual offender enter and remain unsupervised)? It is as if they were saying “We don’t care about your son. He is damaged goods. It does not matter to us if he is molested.” Does the concern end once the baby leaves the delivery room?

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  66. What does love look like? Shouting spiritual truths into a megaphone outside an abortion clinic is cheap. It’s easy. It requires no commitment.

    “You have a saying: ‘Knowledge is a three-edged sword.’
    We also have a saying: ‘PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!'”
    — Babylon-5

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  67. I think it’s because they want to show the world how “tough” they are on “sin” and how they “aren’t afraid” to “speak the truth in love”,

    Lest anyone think I’m off base when I talk about these guys seeking temporal political power, just compare these guys words and actions with your local politicians next election cycle…

    “I’m Chucklenuts O’Neal. I’m tough on sin and sinners, and I approve this message!”

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  68. The funny thing is that they speak as if women are their intellectual inferiors, while demonstrating through their fear of lust and stumbling that they really view women as having power over them. It’s the sort of puerile nonsense that you’d expect from a teenage boy…

    Isn’t that the same developmental age that porn is targeted for? (Sure, they call it “Adult Entertainment”, but it’s pitched to psychological horny teens.)

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  69. Some care more about being right than they do for the soul of another.

    On the contrary, in the devil’s theology, the important thing is to be absolutely right and to prove that everybody else is absolutely wrong. This does not exactly make for peace and unity among men, because it means that everybody wants to be absolutely right himself, or to attach himself to another who is absolutely right. And in order to prove their rightness they have to punish and eliminate those who are wrong.
    — Thomas Merton, “Moral Theology of the Devil”
    http://thegroundoffaith.net/issues/2008-10/Merton.htm

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  70. been there done that – at 10:03, you mentioned, ” I am not fed up with my faith, but I am fed up with Christians in general. I no longer want to be associated with what passes for “Christianity” out there any more.”

    might I recommend to you, and many others, that you consider looking for the Christian examples where they are laying down their livers, quite literally, for their friend, brothers, the lost. They are out there, thousands, but it -IS- easy to focus on the abuses. The abuses -DO- need addressed, and many times seem to be the norm, vs. the exception, but there is so much good going on in this world, in the name of Jesus, that we would do well to remember it, at least, and promote it at most.

    just some thoughts… reminds me of a song, part of the lyric is, “Jesus isn’t like that, he’s perfect in every way…” – Keith Green. It was a song to his parents, and his imperfections were included. This encouragement in no-way excuses the folks this thread is about, but generally speaking, we who believe fair better as we resist letting these men distract us from the faith. People in general fair better by not being consumed with the bad in this world.
    http://tinyurl.com/mfdpgkp

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  71. Ric,
    You’re right. And I’m sorry. There are many good Christians here, on TWW, and in our local community. I’m feeling a bit raw right now because of our own difficult experience. And I hurt to see tweets like that flung at someone who has put her name and face to this cause.

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  72. Excellent post JA. I totally agree that women in that kind of emotional state of mind will definitely be more apt to run into that building to get away from the megaphone.
    Embarrassment and being singled out…my, my, won’t THAT get that soul “won.”

    CARM? As in Matt Slick? Is CON a friend of his? Just…wow.

    From your CARM link-

    “7-8pm Evangelism Real Time (Stories and Ministries) Matt Slick”

    Here is some of Matt Slick’s “Evangelism Real Time”….his own daughter’s story
    (if you have not already read this, warnings… as this can be upsetting to some):

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/07/15/the-atheist-daughter-of-a-notable-christian-apologist-shares-her-story/

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  73. LOL, Diane – I’ve been waiting for someone to post that connection. Yes, you have connected the dots and see what’s going on.

    My daughter’s story lines up with Rachael’s. I was thinking of doing post to parallel their lives. It’s quite amazing, actually. Part of it is what she’d been taught in our own home, but also part at BGBC. You may recall the original impetus of my negative Google review was the alarming percentage of kids/young adults who had abandoned the faith and/or living an ungodly lifestyle from that church.

    As far as CON’s relationship with CARM – – Ken Cook of CARM will be speaking at his upcoming evangelism conference. I don’t know if Matt Slick and CON are friends, but he is obviously friends with the ministry, having gone to their recent conference, evangelizing with Ken Cook and having Ken speak.

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  74. “My daughter’s story lines up with Rachael’s. I was thinking of doing post to parallel their lives. It’s quite amazing, actually.’

    The endings are quite different though. You are your daughter are going strong!! 🙂

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  75. Thanks, BeenThereDoneThat, for sharing just how you feel in light of your present circumstances. Everyone who has had distressing experiences with church leaders, in the community called by Christ’s name, has had to wrestle with these concepts. It is good to have other brothers and sisters remind us that the Body of Christ, the very Family of God, is so much grander than what is portrayed by people who distress us and create havoc for so many.

    Thanks, Ric, for pointing to a bigger way of thinking, yes, a much better way.

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  76. So…

    I have been reading Tony Miano’s (of whom I have never heard) tweets. I love Twitter. You can really get to know someone by their tweets, can’t ya?

    “Tony Miano ‏@TonyMiano 8 Aug
    . @DefendTheSheep An you should change your twitter handle to #MalignTheSheepForSordidGain”

    What in the world is he talking about? Sordid gain as in greed, or a dishonest gain of money ala 1Tim 3:8 and Titus 1:7 referring to deacons and elders? I must be blind, JA. I just don’t see the donate button on your blog. Could you point it out to me? Are you hiding it? Oh….you say you don’t have one? I thought not. But….

    Mr. Miano sure does! I found this odd set of capitalized instructions:

    “DO NOT place any designation on the check. Leave the memo line blank.”
    http://tmiano.com/donation/

    It appears VERY important to him that we leave the memo line blank. Why do we have these instructions on what we may or may not write on our own checks? No further explanation as to the reason-just DO NOT do it. Nice and transparent-like.

    I have never seen this before on a ministry website donation page and I have looked at a lot of them. Curious what it means. Now, I know what I think it means-it’s for flexibility to spend your checks however they want.

    And…..

    “Tony Miano ‏@TonyMiano 8 Aug
    Friends: Looks like we’re short about $1K of raising our living expenses 4 the next 2 weeks. Help/prayer appreciated. http://tmiano.com/donation/

    Living expenses? What kind of living expenses are people giving to? Guess what? You do not get to know! I sure do hope it’s not the sordid gain type, but how do I know that? I guess we just need to trust this itinerant minister to use our checks wisely, even though he requests in caps not to specify the purpose for our gifts on our checks. Perhaps he needs $$$ for the below URGENT prayer request?

    And…..

    “Tony Miano ‏@TonyMiano 9h
    URGENT PRAYER REQUEST: I may travel to AZ next week to share the gospel with a dear friend’s dying father. Much wisdom/discernment needed.”

    Is there no end to their shameless self-promotion?

    Oh Mr. Miano….surely you could have kept that future possible good work (that your left hand might do that your right had is not supposed to know about) to yourself…no? Much wisdom/discernment is needed? Seriously? Isn’t it your job to preach the gospel? I mean, isn’t that why you ask for money?

    If someone is dying, share the gospel. There– problem solved. No discernment needed. You can even do it over the phone and save the airfare/gas. If you can support megaphone blasters shouting at people that they are bound for hell, surely you don’t need people praying for wisdom and discernment for you to share the gospel with a dying man.

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  77. “Tony Miano ‏@TonyMiano 8 Aug
    . @Elle7_ @MeganFillette @PPact twist not Scripture, Elle, lest you be like Satan. #HushHush”

    hmmm…I have listened to a lot of Paul Washer to know to whom that quote is attributed:

    “People tell me judge not lest ye be judged. I always tell them, twist not scripture lest ye be like satan.”
    ― Paul Washer
    http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/5804664.Paul_Washer

    Wow…word for word.
    Steal not another itinerant minister’s quote unless giving him credit, Tony, lest you be thought of as not entirely honest.

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  78. “Tony Miano ‏@TonyMiano 8 Aug
    #Tweaker teacher popped for possession & intent 2 distribute. Christian: pull ur kids from government-run schools.”

    Oh…he is not really that ignorant…is he? That is a sad, sad tweet. Wow.

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  79. Diane – It sure looks as if you are submitting a blog post with all of that info. Yea, I’ve been rolling my eyes all day. All of the Kool-Aid drinking yee-haws buy what he says hook, line, and sinker without any fact checking. Ok, so how long did it take you to find the first comments you posted? Hours and hours? I suspect not because I just took a stroll down his Twitter feed and it’s sitting right there in plain and public view.

    All of his Twitter followers (and is that not an appropriate word?!) must have an idea of a street evangelist in their mind and Tony fits the bill. If he tweets something they don’t like or something that conflicts with that image in their mind, they quickly close their eyes and let it pass because they don’t want Tony to betray that image they have. It’s just much easier to stick with the cool Tony image than to think: hmmm . . . . that behavior is odd . . . . . that tweet is not very Christ-like . . . . etc.

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  80. Diane,
    You said:
    “It appears VERY important to him that we leave the memo line blank. Why do we have these instructions on what we may or may not write on our own checks? No further explanation as to the reason-just DO NOT do it. Nice and transparent-like.”

    What do you want to be that there is all sorts of financial fraud going on? Take for example, travel claims?

    Ed

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  81. IRS thing? They don’t want too many categories? Easier bookkeeping? Put it all in one fund for ease? This way, if it’s all in one place, they can use it as they please. If one were to send in a check for …clothing for orphans, for example, and you write that on the memo, then they must have a category for that and ensure the funds go to that specific request…for IRS purposes? I am thinking out loud. If the memo is blank, then it’s money to do with as they please. I find that rather bizarre, and like I said, I have never seen that before on a donate page.

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  82. @ JA,,,I know you are gracious with the length of comments, but I do apologize for that lengthy one. I just kept finding more and more, lol.

    I do so enjoy learning about new “ministers” of the gospel.

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  83. ” I am not fed up with my faith, but I am fed up with Christians in general. I no longer want to be associated with what passes for “Christianity” out there any more.”

    BTDT- For what it is worth, I am with you. 15 yrs ago I didn’t have a non-Christian friend. Today I am in the trenches with people who have been beat up, condemned, rejected…. So, yes, I am fed up also, and I make no apologies.

    For sure there are all the great sacrificing believers who are out there.

    However that doesn’t eliminate the damage that is done by the creeps…

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  84. Pingback: Beaverton Grace Bible Church’s Pastor Chuck O’Neal: Your Past Will Find You | Spiritual Sounding Board

  85. @ wall flower said, “JA said “There was no effort from the pulpit to involve people in practical help”, yes we definitely experienced this in the situation with our disabled child.”

    I’m sorry you went through that.

    This is one reason of a few why I’ve begun leaving Christianity the past year or two.

    My mom was a Christian, but she actually helped people. Which meant, she brought them food when they were sick, or cleaned their house, gave them money to pay for food, and stuff like that.

    I tried to do the same. I actually helped people get their needs met, not just say, “I will pray for you,” or give pretty- sounding religious cliches but not actually help them. I have noticed my Mom is rare in this.

    After Mom died, and I went to other long-time Christians for support, including extended family, I was either ignored, or they would insist on telling me cliches, platitudes, or even criticism. I noticed none of them were willing to do what I really needed: carve out an hour or two per month, or every other month, to call me on the phone and just let me cry about missing Mom.

    I’ve noticed a lot of Christians are appalling at this in other areas, not just with me, but with other Christians.

    When you’re down, out, hurting, and need emotional support, or some other kind of help (financial, a safe place to stay for awhile, or whatever), many Christians will ignore you, or lecture you.

    Most Christians are not doing what the Bible says they are to do, which makes me question how true the faith all is, if it has no visible impact on people’s lives or actions. Even if Jesus Christ is God and raised from the dead, it’s not had an impact on the lives and actions of people who say they believe in him, so what is the point in following Him?

    Then you see these anti-abortion guys, who claim to be Christian, screaming at pregnant women who are walking into the clinics (as this post discusses), which isn’t very loving of them, and I doubt it will convince any of the women to reconsider.

    When Jesus met the woman caught in adultery, He did not scream at her. He did not excuse her sin, but He didn’t yell at her and tell her she was a harlot. (Some of the strongest words he had were for the too-judgmental people of His time, the Pharisees. The Pharisess thought they were already righteous enough.)

    I don’t support abortion, and I am a social conservative, but I’m getting more and more tired at how a lot of conservative Christians or right wingers go about trying to live out their beliefs.

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  86. @missdaisyflower
    You wrote “This is one reason of a few why I’ve begun leaving Christianity the past year or two.” Yes, leave Christianity, the institutional kind that is. And the label. I am frustrated with those who claim “I am a Christian”, and get away with all kinds of unloving behavior, calling it “tough love”. But please don’t leave Christ. He will not leave you, he is not gone and away. He is always near. Oh what he suffered just so that he could be with us. His love will sustain when people are such disappointments. (JA, I don’t think you need to be sorry. You had your family and your own spiritual abuse to deal with. Our mistreatment at BGBC had been going on for years before you arrived.) We who love Jesus and seek to serve the God of the Bible are all works in progress. I have also questioned what the point is when it seems to have no impact on lives. But growth happens slowly with plants, children and Christians. Small heart changes are not always visible. God is patient with me and I want to be that for others, “Christian” or not.

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  87. Seems that if you were really interested in saving babies, you would look to see what is having more success than what I am doing right now and try that.

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  88. Darrell, watching their behavior and obsession with having the public spotlight has convinced me that they are using this “save the babies” campaign as a way to further agenda to draw attention to themselves. Somebody worded it very wisely: they are media whores. I can’t imagine that God sees this as doing work to help the oppressed in any real and meaningful way.

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  89. Julie,

    I’ve been going over Miano’s ‘ministry’, his style of evangelizing borders badgering. He is offensive, crude, and slanders those who heckle him. I did post a short piece on Miano at http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/2013/08/how-not-to-evangelize.html

    What I wanted to point out is this; this guy is lying to folks about his work history. He says he retired from being an LA County deputy sheriff. Actually, that is not true at all, read this…
    ‘Tony Miano has been a deputy sheriff for the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department since 1987. He served full-time until 2000, when he left full-time duty to pursue the ministry and to become a law enforcement chaplain. Since then he has continued to work as a police officer, serving as a reserve deputy sheriff.’ from http://www.police-writers.com/miano.html
    It seems Tony was an active police officer for 13 years, then he quit the full time position for ministry. He did stay on until 2007 on a voluntary basis, however, a dear friend whose husband actually did retire from being a regional investigator, a sergeant supervisor over detectives, and he assured me voluntary work does NOT count towards ‘years of service’, nor does it count towards a pension, which Miano does not get. Why? Because he quit, after only 13 years of service. This man is deceiving people with his lies, not to mention his horrific approach at what he defines as ‘evangelism’.

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  90. Hi Lyn – – I just read your blog article and you are certainly picking up on the same issues I have observed. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. ~Julie Anne

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  91. Pingback: Post-Spiritual Abuse Change of Perspective: Buffer Zones and Abortion Clinics | Spiritual Sounding Board

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