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Yesterday, GRACE published an excellent article by Victor Vieth and linked to the Paul Washer video that I posted in yesterday’s article (video is posted below in this article).
GRACE is a non-profit organization made up of highly trained and experienced multi-disciplinary professionals who seek to educate and empower the Christian community to identify, confront and respond to the sin of child abuse.
I deliberately did not link to the GRACE article, because I wanted to see what you thought without having any other influences. Here is the article: The True (and False) Persecution of the Church. Please be sure to read the comments. If you followed the comments in yesterday’s post, Learn to Discern: Persecution or Hype or Agenda?, you will notice that some of you had similar arguments. The discussion was great. I loved it.
I, too, saw the video before reading GRACE’s article and wanted to share my observations. Here are the key excerpts I found troublesome:
The church in America is going to suffer so terribly. And we laugh now, but they will come after us and they will come after our children. They will close the net around us while we are playing soccer mom and soccer dad. While we are arguing over so many little things and mesmerized by so many trinkets. The net, even now is closing around you and your children and your grandchildren and it does not cause you to fear.
You’ll go down as the greatest bigots and haters of mankind in history. They’ve already come after your children, and for most of you, they have already gotten them. They got them through the public schools and indoctrination and in the university and indoctrination and then you wonder why your children come out not serving the Lord. It’s because you fed them right into the devil’s mouth. So little by little, the net is closing around and then it’s not little by little – look how fast things are going down hill in a matter of weeks, matter of weeks. But at the same time know this: persecution is always meant for evil, but God always means it for good. And is it not better to suffer in this life, to have an extra weight of glory in heaven?
They were martyred and they were persecuted as enemies of the state, as child molesters, as bigots, as narrow-minded stupid people who had fallen for a ruse and can contribute nothing to society.
This is the kind of rhetoric that we have been given in the Homeschool Movement. As soon as I heard him say these words in the video, I immediately thought that he had drunk the Homeschool Movement Kool-Aid. What Kool-Aid is that? It is the pervasive idea in the Homeschool Movement (and consequently churches who embrace the Homeschool Movement) that the government is first and foremost E.V.I.L. – as in all caps, bolded, and italicized!
And we laugh now, but they will come after us and they will come after our children. They will close the net around us while we are playing soccer mom and soccer dad.
They taught that there can be nothing good about the government (or government schools). They are out to get Christians. We must be fearful of them. They are not of us. We must not be connected with them.
A couple of weeks ago when I was in Portland, I reconnected with an old friend and I confessed that I had thought poorly of her because she allowed her two sweet high school students to attend their local heathen government school for choir classes. Yes, that’s the way we talked sometimes. You see, these girls used to be in the homeschool choir I directed and I couldn’t fathom the idea that these precious girls whom I loved were being indoctrinated in the evil government high school. Oh, that Kool-Aid was so thick. Evil, I tell you, heathen government schools are E.V.I.L. (Side note: they are so evil that I have now sent 3 of my kids to the evil public high school and now I’m Evil Choir Mom and Accompanist and going on my 5th year of doing so – my, my how things change.)
Back to more of Paul Washer, warning, warning:
The net, even now is closing around you and your children and your grandchildren and it does not cause you to fear.
As homeschooling parents, if you do one thing bad, don’t dot your “i” and cross your “t,” the school district is going to come after you, and the police and CPS is not far behind. Warning, warning:
They’ve already come after your children, and for most of you, they have already gotten them.
And if those evil ogres come to your front door, you will need to know what to say because if you say the wrong thing, they could take your children away from you.
Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) had a large population of homeschooling families who were well acquainted with this kind of exaggerated anti-government mentality. That mentality, along with the mentality that churches know better how to handle crimes which they labeled as “sin” than civil authorities helped to create an environment perfect for sexual perpetrators to live and thrive.
Think about the SGM case and my former church. Pastors allegedly knew of the sex abuse cases and refused to notify civil authorities. They dealt with the cases in the church and wanted to keep them under wraps. They surely had the evil-government idea in their minds, too. It was common knowledge that you did not involve the evil government in these affairs. This mindset gave the green light for church leaders to not only overlook abuse, but could also give them the green light to abuse since they knew there was no civil authority oversight.
I am not saying that Paul Washer by any means condones abuse or has even thought this through, but do you see what can happen with his they-are-evil message?
Please, listen to the video again. This time when you listen, imagine yourself as a homeschooling family who has drunk the Kool-Aid that the government is evil. But wait . . . before you hit “play,” look at this. I’ve mentioned Homeschool Legal Defense Association (HSLDA) before:
Home School Legal Defense Association is a nonprofit advocacy organization established to defend and advance the constitutional right of parents to direct the education of their children and to protect family freedoms. Through annual memberships, HSLDA is tens of thousands of families united in service together, providing a strong voice when and where needed. (Source)
Imagine that you believe wholeheartedly that if you don’t say and do the right things, “they” may come after you and take your kids away. Note the words “government intrusion” below taken from the HSLDA site below:
HSLDA also takes the offensive, filing actions to protect members against government intrusion and to establish legal precedent. (From HSLDA site)
Imagine that you have taped a script on the inside cupboard in your kitchen cupboard. The script (printed and distributed to HSLDA members) is what to say should any evil school district officer or evil government official come to your front door. Imagine you have also trained your children what to do or say should anyone confront you while you are out in public, at the library, at the grocery store. All of your children are trained how to respond to the question, “why are you not in school?”
See, you had to have the right response – – – just in case. Just in case what you ask? Just in case that person you met notifies evil Child Protective Services or the evil local school district. In the HSLDA newsletters, we read letters from concerned parents about what to do with nosy neighbors or family members who did not want you to homeschool. There was clearly an us versus them mentality that we were exposed to.
Ok, now hit play.
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Now imagine you are a parent of a child who was sexually violated. In your church, your church leaders have told you they will take care of the problem. You trust them. They have your family’s best interest at heart. Not only that, you are protected by HSLDA. It’s a “Christian” organization. They believe like you that homeschooling your children is your civil right and will protect you and fight for you when the government tries to tell you otherwise. Both HSLDA and your church leaders are in agreement, so they both must be right . . . right? Now everybody is in agreement: government is evil. That part is settled in our minds.
When thinking of the sphere of influence in the families of victims, we realize that they are pretty isolated because of having large families, being active in homeschooling endeavors, and their church commitments. If all of their primary influencers are telling them that the government is evil, you better believe the government is evil. The government might be the last place you want to take our molested child. And if you do, you will surely feel pangs of guilt because you will be going against all of the leaders in your sphere of influence. That is pretty powerful. I cannot imagine the strength of Renee Gamby’s parents who actually DID go against their church authority and notify police of their daughter’s abuse (Renee is sex abuse survivor and plaintiff in SGM’s sex abuse civil lawsuit). ::::High fives to the Palmers from JA:::::
I’m telling you people, we as homeschool parents were taught by homeschool leaders (HSLDA and leaders at Christian homeschooling conventions) to fear government. That they were not there for our protection.
Whether he meant to or not, Paul Washer seems to be perpetuating the idea that all government is evil by his fear mongering.
I do not like this fear-mongering. People in positions of influence and authority need to be very careful in how they use their words. Below is what the Bible says about civil authority. It seems a lot different from Washer’s, “they’ve already come after your children.”
Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.
[Act] as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but [use it] as bondslaves of God. Honor all men; love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king. Peter 2:13-17
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
I know you’re busy with youth, ja. . but what your saying is the government is not evil?
i think i need to process that for a time. .
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just kidding, sort of. .
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Are you messing with me, David? If God ordained civil authority, is it evil?
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Shoot, you got me, David. Lol
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JA: You are really on to something here with this “Learn and Discern” concept. We have been spoon-fed the doctrines of others for so many years we are babies in word of God.
And thank you for encouraging us. When we took Renee to the police station, two female officers trained in child abuse took her into a small office to question her without us present, much like a psychologist’s office for children — and you are absolutely correct, because of what you are stating about the emphasis of “us” vs. “them” (the outside world w/ its wrong philosophy/psychology) — I was absolutely terrified, as we waited. So not only were we in shock and trauma as parents, having just learned our child had been molested, we were unnecessarily terrified of what the officers would do or say to her.
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ja, i’m a bit concerned. you’ve defined the “Home-school Movement” in the manner that makes sense, when I read it, but then it seems from reading more of your posts, you sound sort of paranoid about all things home-schooled (in the writing). I don’t think you are, I’m just think you sound that way. For instance, regarding HSLDA, I’m not sure which side of the Patriarchal Movement fence they fall, has been a great tool for many people, even people who don’t know what to say when DFS or CPS shows up at your front door (it really sounded like those people were belittled, above). I didn’t really think, not once, that HSLDA was hyperbole in their rhetoric nor in the stories of how they helped folks in the different states. Maybe the founders and associated leaders in HSLDA have been that way otherwise, but we’ve found the material from HSLDA to be a great, balanced, benefit – note, we don’t drink kool-aide – except when its very hot outside. 🙂
I hope that my OT comment isn’t deconstructive, I was just so distracted by your comments. Maybe this will help, is Washer a homeschool movement type leader? I don’t know a lot about him. Maybe I didn’t listen to the video enough to ‘get it’. What I did get is this guy is using fear tactics, and I don’t like it. I don’t like what he said, and I don’t think it was very gospel centered, nor uplifting. This type of fear mongering, and revival prophetics are things I’ve heard for 30+ years, from many sects, especially charismatics on the “NEXT GREAT REVIVAL” (even those who don’t homeschool 😉 (wink wink), so I’m not sure how homeschooling fits in. This video is bad enough without painting it toward homeschool. I may be totally missing the point, if so, please let me know where I got off the wrong exit. 🙂
I do appreciate your interests and the manner you conduct this blog. Thank you.
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ha ha… this is funny, sort of, maybe. well, maybe not. depends. 🙂
one of my daughters is finishing up her BS in Social Services / Human Services and she noted a chapter in her text book that sounded manipulative when dealing with “clients.” this is what she msg’d me,
“Section in my text book is labeled “Trapping the client” …. I feel like its manipulative …. slightly haha”…
I told her this is why folks don’t trust social services. I also asked if there was a good reason they titled it that way, but her previous comment had to do when you make a “client”, “ambivalent, you’ve been successful.”
I’m not sure how to take it. But, when considering how folks have testified to social services actions in their towns, it makes you wonder. I must say, where we live, it seems they are doing a very good job with what they have to work with. It doesn’t seem we have to fear them (gov’t organization coming after our kids).
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Ric – You did a good job dissecting my post and picking up on things. I think my primary point of Learn to Discern is looking at patterns I see that are troublesome. In this, you nailed it, the fear mongering. Others brought up the false persecution. The message of “government is evil” is a very popular one. I’m basing the HSLDA comments on what I read (e-mails/newsletters from HSLDA when we were members) and heard from key people at conferences/conventions. Mike Farris who started HSLDA is considered to be on the pillars of the Homeschool Movement. He is definitely patriarchal. You can check the search bar for Mike Farris or click on HSLDA in categories.
If you want to get an earful about HSLDA, join an e-mail list for all homeschoolers (secular and Christian) and you won’t believe how fast tensions rise when discussing HSLDA. HSLDA is promoted at the Christians state-run conventions. Outside of Christiandom, HSLDA is not very well-received. Their lobbying efforts do not line up with all homeschoolers, yet HSLDA acts like they work on behalf of all homeschoolers.
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“And if those evil ogres come to your front door, you will need to know what to say because if you say the wrong thing, they could take your children away from you.”
Julie Anne, I’m not sure where you live, but as we have written about before, we live in Los Angeles and the statement above couldn’t be more true. JUST TONIGHT, I had dinner with another family that was interviewed about homeschooling by social service workers in the Emergency Room when they found my friend’s daughter was being homeschooled. This is serious business out here.
I have to agree with Ric on the point that it kinda comes across as sounding a bit paranoid in all things relating to homeschooling. Paul Washer, btw, has never been a homeschooling leader, per say. His traveling with Doug Phillips doesn’t mean they agree on all things theological. John MacArthur plays golf with Jack Hayford and they are worlds apart theologically.
My experience is that when coming out of something difficult, I can see all things and connect all things to that trial…. However, time has taught me that not all things are so connected. That’s really been a blessing – a relief, even 🙂
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Arclight – It sure sounds like you are living in an area that has a higher incidence of CPS involvement. We have homeschooled in 5 different states and I’ve never personally heard of one case like you mention. Of course HSLDA’s fear tactics are part of their advertising campaign. How else are they going to get you to pay for membership? They convince you that you need their services “just in case” in case those mean ogres come to your door. In their newsletter, they’d highlight cases that were going on across the states. Of course what we don’t hear is the 99% of homeschoolers who don’t ever have a problem with the government/school district.
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I don’t believe I said anything about Washer’s beliefs compared with others. That really isn’t my point. My main objective is the bigger picture in the message. Why does he need to use that kind of fear? And what does it produce in the listeners? Is it producing good fruit or bad fruit?
The fear that was produced about the “evil government” could have led SGM people to have irrational fears of government so much that they lost common sense with regard to calling authorities on their own. It’s a form of manipulation. Is the government always good? No. But could the ciivil authorities have intervened in the SGM cases and brought better justice for the offenders and better help for the victims than was provided by church leaders? Probably.
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I don’t think its based so much on an “evil government” as it is the Word. In fact, I don’t think he used the term “evil government.” He said, “they.” Seems to me he is referring to those who are opposed to Christianity and the vehicles they use like the school system in some cases.
You said, “The fear that was produced about the “evil government” could have led SGM people to have irrational fears of government so much that they lost common sense with regard to calling authorities on their own.” Maybe, maybe not. That’s only speculation. Seems more logical that those who didn’t call the authorities were probably influenced more by “God’s order” according to whatever their church decided that order was. Possibly some slant on Matthew 18. That’s why we all have to study diligently and seek to please God, not man.
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Oh – And I think he would use that tone because I think he genuinely believes what he is saying and is concerned. After all, the Bible does say “daughter against mother-in-law”, “some they will kill in their synagogues”, “in the last days they will..”, etc. Again, that gets back to your eschatology. He’s premill, so naturally, he sees these things as impending and urgent.
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“I don’t believe I said anything about Washer’s beliefs compared with others. That really isn’t my point. ”
Right, I think this is in response to what I wrote in the other thread? But that was referring to some comments by others there regarding various eschatological positions.
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So who’s making a claim that the church is being persecuted when molesters in the church are brought to justice? No one I know and certainly not Paul Washer.To say that the persecution of the church as Paul (and many others) speak of it is ‘false’ is patently ridiculous (lacking intelligent thought). Both examples of persecution (from outside the church and within the church) are real, albeit different ‘categories’ of persecution. If we want to find examples of persecution of the church in the Bible, either specific or in principle, it’s about exactly what . Paul Washer (and many others) speak of. Somebody needs to read the Bible again. Paul Washer speaks of martyrs of the church suffering false allegations, which is true. To even hint at covering up sin in the church is another patently ridiculous charge.
And if you think that the ‘net’ isn’t closing around the true church of God in our country you are completely blind.
I’m reading a book that begins with a theme and the Bible is taken out of context in many ways to make it fit the theme. I see the same thing here. Everything is being made to fit the ‘great crusade’ of abolishing abuse in the church. You will find something to reinforce the need for the crusade, even though it might be complete falsehood.
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“To say that the persecution of the church as Paul (and many others) speak of it is ‘false’ is patently ridiculous (lacking intelligent thought). Both examples of persecution (from outside the church and within the church) are real, albeit different ‘categories’ of persecution.”
What examples do you have of current persecution in the U.S.?
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Wow! All in one comment, at 4:03 AM, Born4Battle engages in erecting a straw man (arguing against positions nobody is taking), tossing out red herrings (attempting to change the subject), condescension and/or what I have called coercive contemptuous disdain (“Somebody needs to read the Bible again”), and use of the old taking-out-of-context ploy.
Also, it appears Born4Battle is holding firm in a resolve not to engage me, and possibly others, in discussion. If this is true, and I hope it isn’t, this may (or may not) be an example of shunning, which can be both manipulative and just plain punitive. I sense another Glossary definition coming on, but that will have to wait.
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“His traveling with Doug Phillips doesn’t mean they agree on all things theological.”
Or…it could mean they are very much in agreement on all things theological.
It could mean not only are they good friends as Phillips states in the videos, but that they do find much agreement on how their version of Christianity plays out in life– things like marriage, family, education, women’s/men’s roles, biblical this and that.
He evidently is in enough agreement with Phillips to go to the Amazon with him on his father/son dominion adventure-and that is what those travel adventures Phillips sells are–a kind of make-believe taking dominion over the earth nonsense, if I am understanding what Phillips claims to believe correctly. It is possible that Washer went with Phillips and absolutely disagrees with every single radical belief Phillips has on how to live out one’s Christian life. That is a possibility. I didn’t see any statements by Washer to that effect and it seems unlikely he would wish to be associated with someone with whom he would so vehemently disagree.
Washer was willing to make videos with Phillips promoting this trip for Phillips’ blog. That disturbed me enough to stop listening to Washer’s sermons (as well as other things). I was sad for new believers in the Lord who follow Washer and would see him getting together with Phillips and think that Phillips is ok since Washer MAY think so. Doug Phillips is way too “out there” in his beliefs.
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I’m finding it interesting how some are trying to defend Paul Washer, yet I don’t see a whole lot of defending his words, which was the primary purpose of both this article and the last one. I’m glad that this has come up because Interestingly, that’s what people did with CJ Mahaney, too. They adored him so much, It became hero worship at SGM. CJ could do no wrong. He could say no wrong. That is exactly what happened at my former church, too. It was all about the pastor and we staunchly defended him, even when we saw clear problems. Elevating a pastor is another way abuse can occur because they are given a position of authority that is not biblical.
You’ll notice that Paul Washer’s name is not listed in either of the titles. The omission was intentional because he was not my primary focus. The focus was discerning the preaching.
For those who want to debate, I’d like to ask you to please remember the purpose of the last 2 blogs posts: Learn to Discern. Also keep in mind the purpose of this blog is to help those who have been victims of abuse to learn and discern. If you are here to debate that direction, then you are really not helping, but have become a distraction.
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Arclight said:
You are proving my point, Arclight. Go over to SGMSurvivors and read about the CJ hero worship there. There was heavy-handed authority going on in SGM churches and the pastors were elevated to such positions of authority that they were obeying pastors by not going to civil authorities when their children were molested. That is not speculation, that is in the testimonies. Have you read the 2nd amended lawsuit? If not, you really need to get a sense of the control these pastors had over the lives of the church members.
One of the ways pastors are able to do this is by instilling fear in the congregants. The fear can lead to feelings of inadequacy and vulnerability in which a member then feels they must follow the leader even more wholeheartedly because they have (pastors) all the answers. It creates an unhealthy reliance on the pastor. The pastor then essentially becomes their Holy Spirit. The pastor can speak for them, make decisions for them. This is the kind of pattern I am hoping readers will identify.
In a healthy situation, a pastor will identify a problem and direct people to scripture and to God to be their guidance. A pastor should not speak for his congregants, but equip them through scripture to find the right answers for themselves.
Hey, did anyone notice there was no scripture reference in the video?
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What I have clearly seen in this post is a video clip, extracted from a larger video, that contained a valid warning to the church. I’ve seemn it twisted to support an agenda, here and in the ‘other’ post that seemed to ‘corroborate’ the false allegations made in this one. I commented that there are two types of ‘persecution’ of the church at stake here, NOT a true one and a false one. that’s about it. And the ‘beat’ goes on. Heavy sigh.
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“What I have clearly seen in this post is a video clip, extracted from a larger video, that contained a valid warning to the church.”
I guess we’re questioning the validity of this warning. What kind of fruit is bared when people are made to be afraid of….I’m not even sure what?
Julie Anne is absolutely right to be putting these videos out there as examples to help people avoid spiritually abusive situations in the future.
P.S. You didn’t address my prior question.
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Wasn’t that what Jim Jones taught his followers while laying the groundwork for the Jonestown Massacre?
“Is it not better to drink the potion before THEY come for you?”
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Is anyone in here abreast of the increasing hostility from our culture to the church and Christians? Paul Washers wasn’t ‘fear mongering’. It’s happening and anyone who doesn’t see it is either blind, not looking, or both.
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Who is taking children away, B4b?
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Where our children are in the public school systems, as well as both public and many private universities, they have already been ‘stolen’. Maybe you should read more. I’m not going to explain further at this point, and whatever I say, there will be some off point cute little rejoinder.
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Hey, at my old church children and adults were stolen. They were left in utter confusion wondering week by week if God had really saved them after they expressed faith in Christ.
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B$B:
You are just being a troll.
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Sounds like there was an issue concerning the assurance of salvation at your church, (as there is with any church that teaches that once given ‘etrnal life’ can somehow be forfeited. that might be considered ‘spiritual abuse/persecution’ and if it is, it’s still a different category than persecution against the church from outside the church, which the Bible clearly speaks of.
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Well, I think now I’ll be in a happier mood on my 4-hr drive to Portland knowing that you acknowledge there is such a thing as spiritual abuse. 🙂
We’ll have to agree to disagree on Washer’s method.
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Never said there wasn’t. However, not everyone who cries about being ‘spiritually abused’ is a victim of real abuse. These days, applying scriptural church discipline is considered abusive. But spiritual abuse and the abuse from outside the church against Christians and all things that have God connected to them are different categories. A couple of folks here and elsewhere seem to dimiss the latter. Maybe they’re not in a church, or they are in one of those ‘purpose driven’, ‘seeker sensitive’ types where the true gospel is absent. Now that’s ‘spiritual abuse’- letting folks think they are saved without confronting the issue of sin and merely promising a better life down here.
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B4B, you keep making references to alleged hostility/persecution to Christians but you have yet to provide examples.
“Where our children are in the public school systems, as well as both public and many private universities, they have already been ‘stolen’.”
What is that supposed to mean?
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That’s fair. I’ve listened to him quite a bit though, and seen the tears in his eyes when he sais some pretty hard things.
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B4B
“Where our children are in the public school systems, as well as both public and many private universities, they have already been ‘stolen’”
Please explain this to me.
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“I’ve listened to him quite a bit though, and seen the tears in his eyes when he sais some pretty hard things.”
CJ Mahaney cries too.
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Wherever our children are taught in the public school system (whatever level) that which causes them to doubt their faith, and/that which is contrary to the moral laws of God that we are charged to teach them, are being ‘stolen’. Our grandchildren are in a fantastic homeschool situation in Louisiana. It’s been going on for a long time, but it’s escalating in our time. Paul Washer is not C.J. Mahaney and vice versa.
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B4B said: “These days, applying scriptural church discipline is considered abusive.”
Not by me. A popular blogger/pastor asked me about this very thing the other day on Twitter privately. He knows I am against spiritual abuse and it seems that he and perhaps you wrongly assumed that I am against church discipline. That is the furthest thing from the truth. Church discipline is biblical. If it is done in accordance with scripture, prayerfully, and with the right intentions, I don’t have a problem with it. I think it is necessary in some cases.
Our former pastor made up his own rules on church discipline, disregarding Biblical guidelines, disregarding the church by-laws he oversaw, disregarding common decency and courtesy, and acted in a fit of rage proclaiming us in church discipline because we had the audacity to leave his “perfect” church and commanded that the remaining church members shun us. That was wrong. That was abusive.
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B4B – some children will doubt their faith whether they are taught in public/private/homeschool. Keeping children at home and homeschooling is no guarantee of a child becoming/remaining a believer. Just go check out Homeschoolers Anonymous. You will read story after story of parents trying to instill (aka force-feed) Christianity on their children. You cannot force Christianity on children.
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I’d like to jump in here and validate the fear mongering that I’ve experienced in the homeschool movement over the last 20 plus years. It WAS ingrained in me by HSLDA and local homeschool umbrella schools to FEAR the government ~ anything government such as public schools, secular organizations, and especially doctors/nurses who could report you to CPS at a whim. Letting your kids play in the front yard just invited the neighbors to report you. This just fuels the “they” vs “us” perspective. While I’m aware of families that need to be represented by HSLDA, I believe it is a small minority and I think HSLDA has just blown it up out of proportion.
I was part of a local homeschool group for years. They were/are heavy into all the patriarchy teachings and love all things Vision Forum/Kevin Swanson etc. and you had to be a member of HSLDA to join the group. I witnessed shunning and judgement and the “they” vs “us” mentality against families that may have a child or two in the public schools or who had just transferred in from the public school. This group had a BIG problem with cliques just like any school. Not just the kids (who could be SO legalistic and condescending among their peers), but the mom’s as well. In fact, one family had to leave because of the affect it had on their daughter. I later talked to that mom and she reported how her daughter thrived in the public school and had found a great group of friends.
I’ve personally not seen the “fall out” from other families that put their kids in public school. If there are problems in the family, I couldn’t blame it on their choice of schooling, although that opinion is not well received in some of these insular homeschool groups. I wish I had put some of my older children in the local public school when I saw they were not doing well in this group (high school age kids). They would have benefitted from it I believe, but I had drunk the kool-aid and couldn’t admit I may be wrong ☹
This group had/has it’s problems, but touted themselves as so superior to the public schools. The pride was/is pretty thick. The cons of homeschooling are never discussed.
I can think of many scenarios that just break my heart today looking back. I wish I had the sense to call it out for what it was.
I’m not against all that is homeschool either. There are other balanced homeschool groups out there that are not into these patriarchical legalistic teachings. But having experienced this form of manipulation myself I’d steer clear of these fringe homeschool groups/teachings.
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“Wherever our children are taught in the public school system (whatever level) that which causes them to doubt their faith, and/that which is contrary to the moral laws of God that we are charged to teach them, are being ‘stolen’. ”
A few follow-up questions:
1. What is being taught that is causing those in public schools to doubt their faith?
2. What is being taught that is contrary to the moral laws of God?
3. What role, if any, do you believe doubt plays in a Christian faith?
4. Why do we drive on parkways and park on driveways?
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2 Corinthians 2:4 “For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you.”
I believe this would fairly describe Paul Washer. Because CJ has done this does not dismiss Paul Washer. I’m not a big fan of his preaching as I have made clear. And I am not trying to put the focus on a person. Clearly, this is his eschatology and its the same for all premilll preachers in my experience. The “stretch” is to try and put this on a board about spiritual abuse. Its grasping at straws. He is no more fear mongering than the Bible itself. If I had read the words only and didn’t know who was preaching it, I would say the same thing. Again – this is premill preaching. Like it or not, its really that simple. I’ve heard it all my life and never felt it was “to keep the masses down.”
I am on this board because I have seen spiritual abuse, been the victim of it, care for those who have suffered from it and are presently suffering from it. But in doing so, I can’t overlook it when I see something stretched like this.
This preaching has been going on since the Old Testament – Isaiah, for one small example. John the Baptist must have been a fear mongerer. The Book of Revelation – my goodness.
The point is not to make such a stretch. There is plenty of real, ongoing spiritual abuse without pointing to a five year old video by a guy doing what all premill preachers do.
Because I care about the victims of spiritual abuse, I also do not want to see sites like this and others like it discredited because of these kinds of posts. Its not all black and white. Everyone can’t be judged through the lens of abuse.
The real abuse is not someone passionate about end times. The real abuse is the sweet, NICE voice that deceptively says, “Now, we don’t want to defame the name of Christ – let’s just pray about this, forgive, and be careful not to gossip.” THAT’S the fear mongering that concerns me.
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“Wherever our children are taught in the public school system (whatever level) that which causes them to doubt their faith, and/that which is contrary to the moral laws of God that we are charged to teach them, are being ‘stolen’. Our grandchildren are in a fantastic homeschool situation in Louisiana. It’s been going on for a long time, but it’s escalating in our time. Paul Washer is not C.J. Mahaney and vice versa.”
Great for your grandchildren. There is no guarantee that Christian children who are homeschooled will continue on in the faith or not doubt their faith–just as there is no guarantee that Christian children taught in the public school system will doubt their faith or have it “stolen” contingent upon what is being taught to them.
So far, nothing our child has been taught in the public school has caused a doubting of faith. We are teaching our child God’s moral laws- they are not being stolen. I really have no idea what you are saying.
I do realize Mahaney is not Washer. I am saying just because a preacher cries, that does not necessarily mean anything positive or affirming. He could be acting.
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A while ago I watched that video of Washer preaching to teenagers. It had a lot of legalism and put-downs – about what they were wearing, for example. As others have mentioned, he seems to be very different when being interviewed.
JA – My only semi-direct knowledge of homeschooling has been years of interacting with home-schooled nieces and nephews, and with some of their friends. They seem to have avoided the abuses you have talked about, thank God. I have no doubt that these abuses exist.
Although I agree that we should not assume that government is necessarily evil, there does seem to be a lot of evidence that, in general, public schools not only have a strictly secular agenda but have no problem with marginalizing and even ridiculing students who are Christians, while not doing so with those of other faiths. There have been countless news stories about this over the last few years. I don’t think it’s at the level of “persecution,” but I think we should keep a close eye on it. Let’s face it: Christianity is not seen as being Politically Correct.
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Monique – Thanks for sharing your perspective. It sounds like you probably got more of it than me with the homeschool group. You raised another important point about homeschool groups requiring you to be a member of HSLDA. That was crazy.
There was definitely a connection between homeschool groups, HSLDA and the Christian state homeschool conventions. Those who had HSLDA got a $$ cut on their admission. If you were a member of a local HS group, you got a cut on your HSLDA membership fees. The group think was the same: patriarchal, courtship, etc.
Oh, and you mentioned fear going to the doctors. Yes, that was definitely another fear that was fed to us.
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Random Methodist Reader:
Has Born4Battle answered any of your direct questions?
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Arclight:
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this. Evidently I’m not the only one troubled by his presentation. You can say it’s about his theology, but I see it as fear mongering. Who says, “they are taking your children away?”
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Jeff Brown – I hear what you are saying. I just think we need to be careful to not be alarmist and use fear to control. This is a tactic used by spiritual abusers. Don’t get me going on what happened when I listened to Gary North during the Y2K hype. Of course there are abuses on both sides. Of course CPS has missed the boat and has also used their power inappropriately. There are abuses everywhere. I’m sure there are teachers in the public school who have used their position inappropriately. We need to be prudent with our children. We need not be reactionary, but grounded in truth. We need to look for people who are alarmists and see if they are backing it up with scripture.
Again, did anyone hear any scripture mentioned in that video segment? It seemed he was too preoccupied with alarming to me.
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Julie Anne:
“Has Born4Battle answered any of your direct questions?”
So far, only the question regarding how public schools “stole” children.
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And even then, it lead me to ask follow-up questions.
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I think ‘force-fed’ is a rather subjective term. What does it really mean, ‘feeling’ force fed, or actually being abused? Deut 6:9 & 11:20, applied in the home could be considered force feeding – applying Godly principles/teachings to every aspect of our lives and teaching them to our children. Is ensuring your child attends church with you force-feeding, when junior doesn’t want to go? Of course you cannot guarantee junior will become a Christian, but what we teach our children will stick to some degree.
You use ‘instill Christianity’ as a synonym for ‘force-feed. They are two different terms. If instilling Christian/Godly values into our childrens’ lives is force-feeding, then we are commanded to force-feed them. Remember that our children are born rebels.
What do you suggest we do, let them go their merry little rebellious ways and give them tons of positive reinforcement sans discipline? If we don’t instill in them Godly values and teach them Christian doctrine (as they are able to understand) where are they supposed to get it? Sunday School? BTW there is no such thing found in scripture.\
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I probably won’t answer every question tossed in my direction, but don’t feel slighted.
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B4B, you sure seem to be putting a lot of words in Julie Anne’s (and God’s) mouth…
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RMR,
That is a completely unsubstianted. I expressed a thought about a term she used and asked some good questions. And you wonder why I ignore you? And go answer yuor own follow up questions. It wouldn’t be all that hard, if you are really interested and can read. We do have Google, after all. Besides, you don’t want to believe anything I have to say anyway.
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B4B,
“And go answer yuor own follow up questions. It wouldn’t be all that hard, if you are really interested and can read.”
When you make a statement, the burden of proof is on you to prove it; it is not my job to prove your point for you.
“Besides, you don’t want to believe anything I have to say anyway.”
My prior point stands regarding putting words in others’ mouths.
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“I probably won’t answer every question tossed in my direction, but don’t feel slighted.”
B4b, please don’t feel slighted when I don’t respond to every comment – especially the last condescending one. That Sunday school comment sure came out of nowhere.
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JA,
Let me speak more slowly:
You equated ‘instill Christianity’ with ‘force-feeding’.
I suggested that ‘instilling Christianity’ and ‘force-feeding’ don’t mean the same thing, and that ‘instilling Godly values’ into our childrens’ lives is exactly what we are charged to do.
I then asked how our Children are to learn Godly values if we don’t teach….them. Asking about Sunday School was a natural extension of that train of thought (concerning how children are supposed to learn).
I also suggested that ‘Sunday School’ is not found in the Bible. It is not.
You chose not to answer my questions, as seems…..to be a common practice in here.
Some might think that there is a game of ‘dodgeball’….in progress. When you don’t/cannot answer ‘dodge’ it.
I also suggest that I have offered passages of scripture that are very plainly written that have been ‘dodged’.
How’s that for condescension?
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Folks, regarding HSLDA fear mongering comment… I don’t get it. I -am- trying to understand the concerns, and where they rightly should be placed.
I’ve been reading HSLDA literature for a while (years – time sure flys 🙂 ), not necessarily their recommended books (we’re not avoiding them for any apparent reason). The stuff they report on happens. I’ve also considered HSLDA fees insurance from a business. They’ve also helped us with legal documents for getting certain validations of our homeschooling. So, their proclaiming how they’ve helped people is certainly marketing, but testimonials as well, and not at all like Washer (from what I read – I haven’t read everything though… 🙂 )
The city near ours sent letters out to all the homeschoolers (registered) in the area commanding them to do things that were not required. A local group helped get that taken care of (not sure HSLDA was involved though). Another story, my brother-in-law was arrested when the police didn’t believe he was home-schooled. Another story, primarily with CPS, we were turned in when our son broke his leg, he was aprox. 2.5. We didn’t make it home from the ER before they went to our home… we had to get his leg put in a cast (we were later told by that doctor that he had a green-stick fracture and they happen all the time at his age). This report was without merit and nobody even examined him at the ER to see if there was an issue. This later part, CPS experience, is not a homeschooling issue, but just an experience, somewhat negative but not all bad, with CPS. These things are happening all the time, and though they are not all bad (read: CPS is doing their job, thankfully), they do put people at risk of further investigation and many states don’t have good homeschool laws, and 20 years ago, they were worse. We’ve homeschooled while living in four states.
These are not fearmongering issues, they are daily issues people are experiencing in our nation. It’s why should be careful not to paint with too wide a brush with our comments (me 2). 🙂 So I’m suggesting that HSLDA has a place, but like JA mentioned, if they are marketing themselves as the voice of homeschoolers, I’d probably take exception. But, I wonder who else is working with the states as much as they are to effect positive change in the state laws? just a thought.
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“How’s that for condescension?”
Yup, I’m still feeling it.
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B4B,
Your user name I guess is something you are trying to fit in to? Battle? I don’t know if you realize it, but it seems your graciousness and christ-like-ness isn’t reflecting. Please note we don’t have the pleasure of seeing each other face to face, and therefore, sometimes sincere passionate questions and comments can really sound harsh and combative.
Thought I’d let you know, hope it helps.
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B4B said:
“Wherever our children are taught in the public school system (whatever level) that which causes them to doubt their faith, and/that which is contrary to the moral laws of God that we are charged to teach them, are being ‘stolen’.”
In that case, our children can and have been “stolen” by abusive churches and pastors masquerading as the ‘truth’ with the ‘correct’ doctrine, which can lead them to seriously doubt their faith. They can smell hypocrisy. They are looking for something real, not just the current celebrity Christianity on display.
So, I guess it depends on what you call “stolen”. We as parents are to teach and guide them with the Holy Spirits guidance and just get out of the way for them to have a direct relationship with Him. The Lords able to do this in spite of us thank goodness.
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Or what happened when I listened to Hal Lindsay during the peak of the Cold War. To this day I have to steer well clear of the last book of the Bible for my own sanity.
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B4B said:
“If instilling Christian/Godly values into our childrens’ lives is force-feeding, then we are commanded to force-feed them. Remember that our children are born rebels.
What do you suggest we do, let them go their merry little rebellious ways and give them tons of positive reinforcement sans discipline? “
The following blog post is an excellent response to B4B’s retort re: discipline.
http://deeperstory.com/my-deeper-story/
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Monique, et al – I don’t get why an anti-spanking blog post / testimony answers B4B’s comment / question. I believe I understand what the author was saying, about training being more than wacking your kid, but it seems that B4B is retaliating against the idea that “training” our children at home, investing our lives into them and even our faith, is being merely considered “force-feeding.” I kind of am taken back by that word choice too. That term seems loosely defined, and when used in the parental role as a negative form of training seems to elude to the idea that there is a superior form of training from somewhere else. I’m left with the question, then where (agree, the bible..:) – but is there somewhere else with specific quality material)? Things I’ve read here, or sensed were eluded to, not to our pastors, not to books from Christian authors, and not our own ideas. We need help, but the only thing it appears we can go to are anecdotes of one successful story (good or bad) to guide our trajectory.
As I lay out these things, they are making me think. I hope to engage the topic(s) and walk through my thoughts. It might be a little jumpy… or a lot… 🙂
Our entire nation/world is force-feeding the generations in public and private educational institutions from pre-K on up (I don’t necessarily consider it that). If parents do not agree with the topics of the public school, then they can teach them at home. But why would that motive be wrong (as the Headless Guy posted sarcastically about the trinity). His comment did make me think. Especially with today’s supreme court rulings. It also made me question what I’m fighting for (pouring my energies into), outside of making disciples. That’s a segway.
We chose to homeschool our kids starting in the eighties. Some of our concern had to do with the manners in which the public system was conducting education, but more importantly, we believe God led us to homeschool. A greater reason than fearing the public school system (which does have a lot of advantages, and neat programs, along with disadvantages). No, we would not like our kids learning evolution from an anti-god point of view, but they will still learn it. We wouldn’t like them to learn sex-ed from the government either (I stuck gov’t in there on purpose.. 🙂 ) , that is better learned at home IMO. Nor do we want them to learn sex-ed from the kids at school. We also know how we were in school and the problems associated with good and bad behavior. Now to the point. Training our children is definitely holistic, no matter which educational choice you choose, and will require instilling our beliefs into them, Lord willing, they’ll become our children’s beliefs too. So how do we know what will save our kids…
Spanking will not save our kids. Hugging them every day will not save our kids. Giving them a sandwich will feed their body, but their soul will not thrive. Bringing scriptures to bear on their bad conduct, or good, will not save them. There is no magic pill. God has to save our kids. Just like he did us! God has to draw them. God has to give them faith to believe, and God can and will use these things and many others in our kids lives to accomplish his will; regardless of where they are educated, and whether we choose to spank (along with many other forms of positive and negative reinforcement), or not. To think that if we become perfect at any one thing, we will save our kids, seems to me to be foolishness. But I believe scripture calls us to lead our children to God. This may be called many things, but to call it “force-feeding” is hard for me to understand when it can be positively argued that that is exactly what we are doing as we are walking along the way.
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I really was going to stay out of this debate! But…. as a employee of a public school, I have a few questions for B4B and Ric:
Are you aware that there is very limited time these days in public schools devoted to those health and science, and only a tiny portion of that time covers sex ed and evolution/creation?
Are you aware that public school teachers are required to present both sides to both of those issues?
Regarding the question of where kids will learn values if not from their parents, the reality is, there are droves of children growing up this world not hearing that they are loved and matter to God, or how to treat others. Like it or not, public school teachers have a huge job of teaching basic moral conduct (such as not stealing or lying, being respectful, etc) while at the same time not being allowed to talk about their beliefs openly. Many of them are Christians who love on kids and SHOW them Jesus every day, and even among those who aren’t Christians, there are some amazing teachers out there who are helping instill positive values on kids. I see it every day. I see kids realizing their value because of how they are treated.
So, in response to the Sunday School comment, where do you expect kids whose parents aren’t Christians to learn about Jesus?
Also, for those who are finding this post drawing a connection between the fear of the government and what is happening in SGM, my question is simply, have you ever been a part of SGM?
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All,
I’m getting off the rabbit trails. This started with a video clip that contained a warning for the church, one that I believe is perfectly valid, considering the ‘signs of the times’. Persecution of the church (from the outside) IS escalating in our country. Will it get to being arrested for our faith? If anyone has been accused of ‘hate speech’ for saying homosexuality is a sin according to Scripture, guess what? What Paul Washer speaks of is already happening in other countries. Will it come to the USA? If you watch the UK and Canada concerning ‘religious’ speech, and the tendency of things to eventually spread south of our Northern border, look out. Is that fear-mongering? Only if the speaker of those sorts of facts intends to instill fear and turn us into survivalists. If on the other hand, the one sharing those facts has another purpose in mind, fearing-mongering accusations are spurious.
There are a few IFs in the above. Since we were fed a video clip, we don’t know the answers to some of the IFs. We just don’t. I can and have shared the same things Paul Washer is saying with the purpose of emphasizing true Gospel preaching. The Gospel is where I always end up.
I think using the video clip to bash Paul Washer (and others), get into more rants about home-schooling and spiritual abuse is unwise at best, intellectually dishonest, and at times even slanderous.
There seems to be a tendency these days for some to pick up a cause, declare omnisciently what is wrong, and then force-fit everything INTO their cause.
And it makes me sad.
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B4B:
Pot meet Kettle.
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Tom,
What do personal accusations accomplish, especially unqualified ones, which yours is, If you profess Christ you ought to be ashamed, as any of us who profess Him but who engage in such things, including me, ought to be. My cause is the Gospel, at least it should be, along with tackling issues in light of scripture. that’s about it. Should we deal with issues? Yes, biblically and wisely. Sometimes we fail at the biblically and wisely parts. If you are referring to my having gone down rabbit trails along with everyone else, I’m guilty.
.
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Born4Battle (not that you’ll pay any attention to what I write, but anyway…):
I guess we just view the world vastly differently. I just don’t see the persecution that you seem to be seeing. That’s why I asked for clarification: to better understand where you’re coming from. All I’m getting from you is a superior know-it-all attitude.
FYI: Disagreement is not persecution. Neither is being asked to show common courtesy. Neither is being called out when you say something hurtful.
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B$B:
The truth hurts doesn’t it. No shame in pointing out the truth.
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I wanted to post a comment that is from the article I linked to in the first paragraph of post. This comment is from Victor Vieth of GRACE and the author of the article. The comment is dealing directly with the persecution issue we’ve been discussing here:
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RIC,
I appreciate you comments regarding tone. This is not the best place for a discussion. We who speak need to be extra nice I guess, and people will ‘assume’ tone(s) that are not there. I’m as guilty as the next guy for starting softly and becoming frustrated when folks seem to miss the obvious (persecution of the church from outside the church in our day, in this post)
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A personal anecdote: I play piano for a high school choir in a public school (like Julie Anne), and there is no persecution of Christians whatsoever. In fact, the students share their faith freely, and even right before a musical I played piano for, some students got together in a circle and prayed before the performance.
So you’ll have to forgive me if I seem skeptical when told that there is widespread persecution against Christians in the U.S.
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“I’m as guilty as the next guy for starting softly and becoming frustrated when folks seem to miss the obvious (persecution of the church from outside the church in our day, in this post)”
Maybe it isn’t actually obvious.
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RMR,
Just google ‘persecution of the church/christians in America and start reading. I don’t agree that everything called persecution IS, but you will get the picture, and it’s obvious to the literate, if the facts are true. You DO have to be blind NOT to see it. When I say that it exists and has been escalating over the years, it’s just the facts. If that’s ‘arrogant’, so be it.
Who said disagreement is persecution? Not me, that’s for sure. I’m a crusty old soldier and I just say what I know to be fact and also what I believe. If that ‘hurts’ people, it’s more on them than me. Have I been hurt by words, Yep, and it was on me, whether it was intentional or not.
A last word about persecution of the church. It is promised in the Bible. Read that book too.
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Recovering Pharisee – Your question is a good one, and reasonable in forms where folks often have knee jerk reactions, not just in writing, but in their life’s decisions. Yes, we understand the amount of time given to various topics, as well as the OPT-OUT requirements. I wasn’t painting a picture to polarize the conversation against public edu, but purposely picked those things as items people would not appreciate in public schools to help with my explanations – it would be hard for any parent to say, “I don’t want my kid to learn geology.” 🙂
My daughter has a masters in education. We have friends who are public school teachers and administrators, one has been the H.S. teacher of the year, a couple times. We are well versed on the school system in our area, and, how many believers work within that system. Many of our friends send their kids to public schools.
Interestingly, when we were first starting out homeschooling, we stopped by an old Ohio town where I lived and met my science teacher whom I respected and still respect. As part of our budding homeschool parents, we told him we were homeschooling our kids. He lit up like a Christmas tree. He was very excited for us. His main concern at that time, 20+ years ago, was that even in the small town in Ohio, the bureaucracy had already ate away at teachers time and ability to educate vs. track all the education that was going on. He pointed to the schools using the lab tables as storage and his office, where he was overburdened with paperwork (field trips were cut too – no more trilobites). I’m not painting public education as all bad because of sex ed and evolution. Regarding my science teacher, maybe he needed better management skills. I think, we have a good balanced perspective on public and home education.
This are some of the reasons I don’t like “fear-mongering” whether it goes on in the church, or blogs, or homeschool conventions, or anywhere. It’s a matter of stirring folks up for someones agenda. Its the same thing as stirring people up for the “next great revival.” It’s the same thing, and don’t forget to buy your new revival books here.
It is important, we believe, to live a balanced life in this world, and none of the emotion stirring agendas really prosper people in a way that is helpful. In 30 years, I’ve seen a lot of folks, friends, fall to the wayside of their faith due to these type of things (and others of course). These “movements” don’t save and are incapable to strengthen people’s faith in the Lord when their lives fall on hardship, or they begin to crumble for a myriad of different things (jobs, sickness, unforeseen accidents, etc).
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B4B said: “A last word about persecution of the church.”
Are you saying this is your last word about persecution of the church?
“It is promised in the Bible. Read that book too.”
B4B – – Are you thinking because some people aren’t agreeing with you that we haven’t read that book – – the Bible?
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theres others, but this is important:
“Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely hon my account. Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you” (Matthew 5:11-12).
a different take on how we may, or should, look at persecution…
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Just google ‘persecution of the church/christians in America and start reading. I don’t agree that everything called persecution IS, but you will get the picture. You DO have to be blind NOT to see it. When I say that it exists and has been escalating over the years, it’s just the facts. If that’s ‘arrogant’, so be it.
Who said disagreement is persecution? Not me, that’s for sure. I’m a crusty old soldier and I just say what I know to be fact and also what I believe. If that ‘hurts’ people, it’s more on them than me. Have I been hurt by words, Yep, and it was on me, whether it was intentional or not.
What does the knowledge of the increasing persecution of the church (from the outside) cause me to do? Be more energetic concerning the spread of the gospel that Christ died for our sins, so that God will bring home every last one of His remnant people. Jesus won’t come back until the last of God’s elect people are brought into the Kingdom. that much I know.
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JA,
I’m not suggesting anything about anyone. I’m just suggesting that people research what’s out there concerning the topic and include the Bible in that research. Please don’t read into my words what is not there. .
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Again, B4B, it’s coming across the same way – as if you are more knowledgable about “true” persecution.
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“RMR,
Just google ‘persecution of the church/christians in America and start reading. I don’t agree that everything called persecution IS, but you will get the picture, and it’s obvious to the literate, if the facts are true. You DO have to be blind NOT to see it. When I say that it exists and has been escalating over the years, it’s just the facts. If that’s ‘arrogant’, so be it.”
I said in an earlier comment that the burden of proof is on you to prove whatever statement you make. Just simply telling somebody to google it is not proving your statement.
And honestly, typing any phrase into Google is never a guarantee that the first sites that come up are reputable sites.
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RMR said: “A personal anecdote: I play piano for a high school choir in a public school (like Julie Anne), and there is no persecution of Christians whatsoever. In fact, the students share their faith freely, and even right before a musical I played piano for, some students got together in a circle and prayed before the performance.”
You dooooooooo??? 🙂 Hanging with and accompanying for high school choir kids is the best unpaid gig ever. I love it! Thanks for sharing that connection we have.
BTW, I’ve had similar experiences. One choir trip to SF, when doing the rounds making sure all heads were accounted for in the hotel rooms, a choir student actually asked me to pray for her as her family was going through a rough time. Funny thing, I had never told anyone that I was a Christian. Christians have a way of connecting, don’t we? Some persecution.
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JA: “You dooooooooo??? Hanging with and accompanying for high school choir kids is the best unpaid gig ever. I love it! Thanks for sharing that connection we have.”
I agree. It is certainly the best gig ever. Although in my case it’s actually a paid gig, but even if it wasn’t, I would still do it because I love it. (I also have a day job, so I’m not able to be there for rehearsals every day)
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Ric, That’s probably what Paul Washer would tell you – not exactly fear mongering, is it?
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JA,
If realizing it does exist and is increasing is more knowledgeable than denying it, than I guess so. You however, are reading an attitude into my words.
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RME, You’re playing dodge ball again. Research is research. That’s all I am saying. Do some research.
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B4B, what kind of activities going on today would you consider persecution?
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Born4Battle:
Yes, I am reading an attitude – superiority attitude that those who don’t get it like you do are less-thans. I’m not sure if that is intentional, but that’s the way it comes across to me. That is a similar attitude a lot of us dealt with in our high-controlling churches.
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B4B:
Yes, I believe many here have detected an arrogant tone with your comments.
For example:
JA,
“Let me speak more slowly:”
And
“How’s that for condescension?”
And
“We who speak need to be extra nice I guess, and people will ‘assume’ tone(s) that are not there. ”
So, is that speaking extra nice?
Many here have made the point that we haven’t seen or experienced the persecution we’ve been warned about by the extreme fear mongering tactics.
We just don’t agree with you.
So, according to you that makes us blind.
No, we just don’t agree with you and have given you personal examples to back up our opinions.
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RMR,
Since I’ve been labeled with a ‘know it all attitude’, i’ll spare you any more answers. The facts are out there.
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JA, Why do you want to perceive an attitude? Might it be an easy way to dodge questions? Attack the man instead of seriously considering what he has to say? You don’t have to answer. Think about it.
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Whether or not you agree with me is irrelevant. Whether or not you have personally experienced any persecution is not the issue. The only point I have about this post is that Paul Washer has a serious point, considering what has happened in the last decade or so in our culture and what the Bible says about how the ‘world’ will treat Christians. Just do some research, including the Bible and come to your own conclusions.
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Per B4B’s suggestion, I googled “Persecution of Christians in America.” I went through the first two pages (20 articles). Here’s what I found:
Despite the subject, only 11 articles dealt with persecution in America. Of these:
5 said that there is persecution;
6 said that there is no persecution.
There were 9 articles about worldwide persecution. All agreed that there is worldwide persecution of Christians. One had a link to an article about a recent study that showed that Christianity is now the most persecuted religion in the world, having “surpassed” Judaism. The article: http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2013/02/26/religious-persecution-and-safe-havens/
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By “no persecution,” I didn’t mean that there were no cases of anti-Christian bias, just that they didn’t amount to persecution.
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“JA, Why do you want to perceive an attitude? Might it be an easy way to dodge questions? ”
Says the one that keeps dodging my questions…
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“Despite the subject, only 11 articles dealt with persecution in America. Of these:
5 said that there is persecution;”
Did these articles give examples?
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b4b, i would encourage you to aspire to reflect Christ vs. “crusty old soldier.” Consider Jesus’ commentary with the woman at the well. He could have slain her where she stood, but instead, offered to give her water where she would never thirst again. he didn’t tell her just to tough it out, neither did he do that to anyone else seeking truth.
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b4b, not sure which comment you were referring to. sorry.
btw: as for Washer, I’m not a follower.
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JB,
It is starting to sound more and more like Christians in America are mostly un-persecuted. However, I would contend it does happen howbeit quietly and maybe without knowledge of the Christian. For fundamentalists to claim persecution sounds like the IBC church in Rota Spain in 1982. They claimed persecution, but after a few weeks of getting to know them, it was my opinion they were not being persecuted for “righteousness sake.” They were being “persecuted,” if you will, by other Christians not liking arrogant preachers and deacons that think they are the one true church in the area, they also from what I observed, were might proud of it.
Also, the arrogant pastor (if we can call him that), chewed me out in front of the front gate Baskin and Robins because I visited a different church, and liked it. He was shouting at me, where many others heard. His dutiful deacon stood obediently by without comment. They ruled the day…. but here is the clincher… “without love” they were nothing. All they did was for not. They did not show love to others, only seemed to love themselves. Sad at best, and I hope they have found God’s grace.
B4B, you sound a lot like what I just described, in your posts. Maybe if you alter the accusatory approach, display grace in your words, and consider that we are all crawling toward the light with feet of clay, it will help to communicate what you are really wanting to discuss, and engage in case you disagree, unless you are seeking merely to be divisive. Just a thought.
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“Consider Jesus’ commentary with the woman at the well. He could have slain her where she stood, but instead, offered to give her water where she would never thirst again. he didn’t tell her just to tough it out, neither did he do that to anyone else seeking truth.”
Very good comment. I also find it interesting that Jesus never actually said that the woman’s living arrangements were sinful.
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