Learn to Discern: Persecution or Hype or Agenda?

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I had a whole post typed up here and then decided to delete it all.  Rather than talk about my thoughts about this video, I’d like to read yours.  It’s pretty obvious from the title of this article that I have some issues.

I think this is important to do this from time to time because so many of us were spoon-fed in our churches and we bought what our pastors said without questioning.

A big special thanks goes to the behind-the-scenes elf who volunteered to transcribe this video.  It’s helpful to see the words and hear them.  Thank you!

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Persecution or a Great Awakening, Transcribed from Video

By Paul Washer

The church in America is going to suffer so terribly.   And we laugh now, but they will come after us and they will come after our children. They will close the net around us while we are playing soccer mom and soccer dad. While we are arguing over so many little things and mesmerized by so many trinkets. The net, even now is closing around you and your children and your grandchildren and it does not cause you to fear.

You will be isolated from society as has already happened.  Anyone who tries to run for office who actually believes the Bible will be considered a lunatic until finally we are silenced. We will be called things that we’re not and persecuted not for being followers of Christ, but for being radical fundamentalists who do not know the true way of Christ, which of course is love and tolerance.

You’ll go down as the greatest bigots and haters of mankind in history. They’ve already come after your children, and for most of you, they have already gotten them. They got them through the public schools and indoctrination and in the university and indoctrination and then you wonder why your children come out not serving the Lord. It’s because you fed them right into the devil’s mouth. So little by little, the net is closing around and then it’s not little by little  – look how fast things are going down hill in a matter of weeks, matter of weeks. But at the same time know this:  persecution is always meant for evil, but God always means it for good. And is it not better to suffer in this life, to have an extra weight of glory in heaven?

You must settle this in your mind, this is the one thing I want to say over and over: do not believe, down through history you have a wrong idea of martyrdom and persecution, you think that these men were persecuted and martyred for their sincere faith in Jesus Christ, that was the real reason, but no one heard that publicly. They were martyred and they were persecuted as enemies of the state, as child molesters, as bigots, as narrow-minded stupid people who had fallen for a ruse and can contribute nothing to society.

Your suffering will not be noble. So your mind must be filled with Word of God when all people persecute you and turn on you. And when the spirit of God and common grace pulls back and you see even your children and grandchildren tossing in the lot that you should die, this is no game.

You want revival and awakening, but know this:   for the most part, great awakenings only come preceding great national catastrophes of the persecution of the church. I believe God is bringing a great awakening but I believe that He is raising up young men who are strong in trust in the providence of God to be able to wade through the hell that is going to break loose on us, and it will be on us before we even recognize it,  unless – unless in God’s providence He is not done, He is not done. And note, this is not silly talk.   Apart from the great awakening, these things are going to come upon you, be ready to lose your homes, your cars, everything……………..

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114 comments on “Learn to Discern: Persecution or Hype or Agenda?

  1. I see all three as true: real Persecution of the saints (perpetrated mostly by the “spiritual authorities” and ecclesiastical powers of the established church); a lot of alarmist Hype; and most certainly a fundamentalist Agenda. . since your asking

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  2. David – – tell me more about this real persecution of the saints perpetrated by “spiritual authorities?” What do you mean? Can you give an example?

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  3. My husband and I have had a few conversations about this. Our conclusion is that what the “church” sees as persecution they will bring upon themselves. And not because they are living according to the Bible. It’s because they promote child abuse through their child discipline teachings on brutal spankings; because they cover up the sexual abuse of children and domestic abuse in their midst; because some of the children receiving a home “education” aren’t being educated at all; because they say very hurtful and hateful things to non-believers, and try to legislate their beliefs onto everyone else. If the church were really expressing love and tolerance, what would there be to persecute? Sorry, but I just have to say, “gag me.” They are only going to reap what they’ve sown.

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  4. Excellent comment, BTDT! Isn’t that odd how Washer paints themselves as victims? Say what? Wait a minute. I wonder if he sings “Persecuted for Jesus” or “Victory in Jesus” for their hymn sing?

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  5. A lot of hyperbole in that sermon. Persecution from outside the church? Hardly. More like a secular society’s pushback against the theocratic desires of the fundamentalists. Just because you believe you’ve got God on your side doesn’t give you the right to impose your will upon a people who are growing more secular .
    Persecution from within the church? You bet. How else can they get people to abdicate reason and logic and follow blindly. Playing on people’s fears is the oldest means of deception in the book, figuratively and literally.

    This fundie preacher also scapegoated every moderate and progressive Christian and denomination with his diatribe. And they still wonder why all those other Christians aren’t terribly interested in having a dialogue…

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  6. There is no suffering in this life. Watch ten minutes of Al Jazeera and perspective comes quick. He is narrow minded and stupid. His suffering is fabricated.

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  7. Persecution? Not even a slight look into Biblical history validates that crap. This man is self absorbed. He likes to think he “suffers for the Lord” but he does not know what that means. NERO, dumb ass.

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  8. God isn’t raising up young men for anything. They are gone. God is raising up young women who are pointing out the lunacy and disconnect between the gospel and the church.

    This dude reads too much LHT.

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  9. Young men are entrenched in isolating the church from anyone and anything. This old dude is trying to keep up. He is failing. Mark Driscoll, anyone?

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  10. Hi JA, I was surprised and interested to see your post today as I personally Paul Washer, though it has been several years since I’ve spoken with him. My wife became a Christian in part through him. I don’t like much of what he says in this video, but I think it flows from his eschatological beliefs. If you think the world is getting worse and worse and evil will triumph, it really affects other parts of your worldview. Since I see Christ reigning (currently) and believe the world is becoming a better place because of the gospel, I tend to be much more optimistic. Washer is tremendous at preaching the core gospel. I really wish he would stick to that, instead of delving into futuristic suppositions. And since I know the thought may occur to some, I really don’t think his comment about child abusers was directed to a specific modern day incident.

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  11. Without intending to suggest whether or to what extent any part of it applies to Paul Washer, I am prompted to propose another addition to the Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits and Code Words:

    Fear Mongering:

    A particularly destructive tool for manipulating the behavior of members of a target audience. Often wielded unconsciously. Where wielded consciously, a favorite tool of tyrants and abusers everywhere, from dictatorial political rulers, to leaders of cults and cult-like religious groups, to narcissistic and authoritarian husbands/fathers. Objectives innumerable. In ecclesiastical settings, objectives may include manipulation of giving, attendance, acts of service, doctrinal conformity, and unquestioning loyalty to leaders, their ideas, and their agendas. Where wielded by leaders of cults and cult-like religious groups, objectives typically include victims’ self-isolation from outside influences, often to the extent of engendering bitter suspicion and outright hatred of those marginalized as “outsiders.” Involves efforts to stampede target audience members into panicked, unthinking action promoting the fear monger’s objectives/agendas. Fear being a destroyer of faith, the fear monger succeeds, whether intentionally or unintentionally, in separating his victims from Jesus and, therefore, from His Father and theirs. In place of hope, there develops despair; in place of love, hatred; in place of contentment, anxiety; in place of peace, striving and conflict; and so on. In extreme cases, as victims turn more and more from Jesus, and as their felt circumstances, therefore, become more and more desperately dire, their attention will be increasingly focused on the fear monger for promised answers, until ultimately his victims are in utter thrall to The One, i.e. the fear monger—who comes to be in every significant respect their priest, their prophet, their king, their idol, their god.

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  12. “How can we recognize a healthy church? In addition to matters of appropriate doctrine, a healthy church is reconciling and restorative, not adversarial and elitist. Members of healthy churches seek to deepen and strengthen their family commitments. Legitimate leaders will welcome dissent and hard questions from members without threat of reprisal. Trustworthy leaders will encourage accountability, and they will establish checks and balances.”
    http://www.icsahome.com/infoserv_respond/info_clergy.asp?ID=30919

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  13. And shall we bring up the fact that, from Washer’s Calvinistic theology, God is the One who has foreordained all such alleged “persecution”? As a matter of fact, God has foreordained and brings about each and every “woe” that Washer mentions by His meticulous “sovereignty,” including the consequences of those “woes.”

    Keeping Calvinists consistent with their own worldview is nearly impossible — im-pos-sible. Are they not really complaining against all that God has seen to bring forth by His irresistible and unchangeable will? Ugh.

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  14. William, that’s a good point. I wasn’t getting the message that he was counting it all joy—all this woe and persecution. It seemed more “woe R Us,” didn’t it?

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  15. Hey, I’m Calvinistic and contrary to some assumptions being made here; I’m super optimistic about the direction of the world under the sovereign direction of God!

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  16. Sorry, Seth, but when Calvinists balk about all that God has “sovereignly” brought to pass, I can’t help but call them out on their blatant inconsistency, lol.

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  17. Fwiw, I’m reformed with a small ‘r’ which would probably categorize me a Calvinist in the soteriological sense. . and for what it’s worth I’m historic premillennial. . and believe in the absolute sovereignty of the Most High God of Daniel. . Just registering this; not wanting to pick a fight. . there’s quite a variety of Calvinists I suppose. .

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  18. Hmmm . . . I’ll have to think on that. :^) Then again, we both know “all” doesn’t always mean “all” (wink, wink — a little theological humor for you and me, haha).

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  19. I’m glad to hear about your optimism, Seth. I have heard Paul Washer before. Probably a few sermons. One very popular one for youth, I’m too lazy to look it up on my smartphone. It was during the timeframe when we were at the cult so I really need to listen to a whole sermon again with new ears/understanding. Someone sent me
    this particular video.

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  20. Yeah, Washer is probably really good for a certain niche, and not so good for others. He’s all fire and brimstone when he preaches, but when you talk to him one on one, he’s quite the opposite, quiet and and soft spoken.

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  21. This is probably the number one thing that keeps me from wanting to even try re-engaging with a church home someplace – I find this kind of hyperbolic fear-mongering and persecution mindset so endemic in evangelical subculture that it makes me want to scream. I find it incredibly shortsighted, self-centered, and hypocritical, to claim persecution and believe it when they are creating their own problem. Most of them have no idea how they look to outsiders, and having been on the outside, I have a weird viewpoint of having grown up on the inside but been away long enough to look back more objectively. I got to the point where I didn’t want to call myself a Christian even when I came more or less back to the same point faithwise, I didn’t want to be associated in any way with the church I’d grown up with and people like them, fundamentalists of various sorts.

    It was only a year or two ago that I found a few blogs written by Christians who a) didn’t seem to have that incredible distortion of reality, and b) weren’t complete jerks. Because by and large, in my experience, Christians are jerks, and they have a very shaky grasp on reality. I think a lot of people in secular society see it that way too, and that’s…..really sad.

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  22. Oh, and also, miserable. That was the biggest thing that sent me looking for answers elsewhere, growing up – Christians are miserable. They’re supposed to have righteousness, peace, and joy, but mostly they just fake it, and the people I was around growing up and have met personally since, most of them have none of the above. They’re miserable, their whole lives are based on anxiety and fear, and the church is full of covered up sins and abuses, including the kinds of things you (Julie Anne) write about here so often. This was all I ever saw, growing up. Miserable, broken, desperate people, who were nevertheless insisting on evangelising everyone to their way of life. And you are told that you can never find true joy or happiness outside of the church, so you appear to be screwed regardless.

    My dad loves that verse, about ‘I would have fainted, unless I believed to see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.’ I’m like well, YEAH. Pretty much, that is what made me lose faith to begin with. I’ve never seen it. I’ve heard of people who profess to have it, especially the joy part (most Christians will say they are happy, even if they are clearly not, because there is such a stigma about it in the culture), but I’ve never met anyone personally who didn’t turn out to be faking it on at least two of those counts. So that makes me very cynical about organised Christianity, especially in America, but I still believe something communal exists that we can and should find, or at least hope for. I just have no idea what it looks like, or where it is.

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  23. A lot of people have posted really insightful takes here, so I have very little to add. Gary W in particular hit it out of the ball park.

    As to persecution, this is coming from a group with a horrible track record of standing with persecuted minorities in much of the nation’s history. Evangelicals in the South stood on the side of the segregationists during the height of the civil rights era in the 60’s while the rest stood on the sidelines. Jerry Falwell in particular was a virulent advocate for segregation.

    Just learned that today is the 30th anniversary of the massacre of 32 gay men killed by a fire bomb while they were worshiping in the Metropolitan Church of New Orleans. Without condoning homosexuality, couldn’t Evangelicals have stood up for their human dignity? Very few came forward to claim the bodies, and when a local Episcopalian priest agreed to hold prayer meeting for the dead, he came under heavy criticism.

    Shall I even go into the wave of anti-Muslim bigotry which has gripped the Evangelical church since 9-11?

    So now the leaders of Evangelicalism are publicly fancying themselves as martyrs and sufferers for Jesus after all these years of either apathy or downright culpability in the oppression of various minority groups.

    BIG. FAT. FAIL.

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  24. Wow. And we wonder why people scoff at Christianity. How embarrassing for the rest of us.

    “We will be called things we are not… bigots… child molestors…”Do ya think there might actually be a reason Christians are accused of such things?

    “God is raising up young men” Never have I heard such ridiculousness than that of white men (the sector of society with the most power and privilege) somehow putting a spin on their faith that they are some how the persecuted ones, while they continue to devalue and discredit women.

    And finally, anyone who truly cares about justice and truly loving your neighbor and even your enemy as yourself must drop the “they” language. “They’ve already come for your children..” They, They, They. As long as the “Us and Them” mentality is promoted, your message of Oppressor-yet-Martyr will be seen as the ridiculousness that it is. Jesus came to tear down walls, not create them.

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  25. What I see different in this guy then some of the other pastors is that he is not encouraging people to sue their own son or to use other world means to fight back. He seems to be at least preparing people for a season a persecution but I don’t see him trying to use the worldly means. Although, he may be speaking in generalities and hyperbole, I don’t see his words pointed to anyone specifically. I think he is more of a turn the other cheek kind of guy. This is refreshing to me.

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  26. Would anyone in here, ANYONE consider discussing what the Bible says about ‘great awaking v. persecution’ in the last days? Is that a rhetorical question for which the answer is NO because you just want to ping on Paul Washer?

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  27. Does anyone know of any Christian martyr, who was supposedly killed for being a “child molester”? It is important to stick to facts. I find Paul Washer’s words, here, to be fear-mongering, and even though he said them with much conviction, they are not intellectually careful. A person can be falsely accused of being a bigot, narrow-minded or stupid based on another person’s opinion or society’s prejudice toward his Christian beliefs. In severe times of persecution, I too believe that Christians will be falsely accused of believing things they do not believe and martyred for them. However, to accuse a person of being a child molester, there needs to be some testimony by an alleged victim, physical forensic evidence, witnesses or circumstantial evidence. You either are a pedophile or not. There is either enough testimony and evidence, that you are a pedophile or not. It is not an issue that can be twisted, such as a belief.
    Jesus was crucified with wrongdoers, and condemned falsely of blasphemy, based on a wicked perception of his teachings — but Pilot stated that he could find nothing (no action) that Jesus had ever done that was wrong. No one should claim that a charge against them of being a child molester is somehow linked to persecution of his supposed Christian faith! Statistically, pedophiles are notorious at lying and deceiving others around them, denying that they really did do such horrible crimes. Sadly, victims of pedophiles in religious organizations, are often not believed by those around them, even though false claims of sex abuse are very rare. Paul Washer’s words here, in my opinion, provide another evil “way out” for alleged pedophiles from facing justice for their crimes — claim persecution!

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  28. Born4Battle,

    Sure, I’m willing to discuss what the Bible says about great awakening v. persecution in the last days. You likely won’t hear back from me until at least this evening. In the meantime, I really can’t say that I have any opinions on the topic. So, you’ll have to go first.

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  29. Born for Battle,

    Now, why on earth would anyone want to “ping” on Paul Washer, or John Piper, or Mark Driscoll, or John MacArthur, or any other over-reactionary, outlandish, high-profile Calvinist pastor? Notice the type of Calvinist pastors who usually do NOT receive such “pings”: Tim Keller, Francis Chan, Matt Chandler, Trevin Wax, Michael Horton. Why is this so?

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  30. Born4Battle – – I think first we have to establish if his words line up with scripture. Do they? It almost sounds like he’s attempting to speak as a prophet here or perhaps a “prophetic word” which they say in charismatic circles. I wonder how he feels about charismatics, because he’s acting like one.

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  31. I doubt that he thinks of it as prophetic, although you are right that it sounds like that sort – but even in those circles, or perhaps especially there, this stuff is taken for granted. It’s not prophecy if it’s already happening, and a lot of them seem to genuinely believe that it is.

    Andrew has a point, as well, but it doesn’t quite matter when it’s part of the larger context in which it only supports the voices who are actively encouraging worldly responses. Something which might be benign by itself is much less so when it is only part of a tapestry in which is it the most muted colour.

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  32. Kagi – I had typed up a response to your comment about fear-mongering pastors and it must not have entered. Not all churches are like this guy – that is for sure. I won’t ever go to another church like that again. It makes God to be angry, vindictive, without grace. I think that’s why it’s good to put up videos like this for discussion. In this safe place we can see the responses of others. In the church setting, it would be called gossip to question whether this “fear-mongering” is appropriate and then you’d be on the bad list of divisive slanderers. That’s the kind of church you need to run from. For you to read others say that this is not right is cementing in your mind what is healthy and what is not. I love this discussion. It’s great.

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  33. Pam’s comment is so good. Keep in mind Pam is the mother of Renee, one of the plaintiffs in the SGM lawsuit, so her comment comes straight from the heart:

    “Paul Washer’s words here, in my opinion, provide another evil “way out” for alleged pedophiles from facing justice for their crimes — claim persecution!”

    Do you see how Paul has made a way out? Who is really being persecuted in this situation? Would it be the pedophile or the victim?

    Look at my lawsuit situation. I mentioned a sex abuser in the church and that got my pastor all riled up and he sued me for that phrase (and others). The pastor covered it up and failed to report the sex offender to authorities. Now the pastor has twisted it all around saying HE is the victim. He was persecuted by a mean blogger and others who dared to speak up. SGM church is doing the same thing. “Those big, bad meany SGM survivor blogs are hurting our feelings.” SGM leaders have adopted victim mentality and in doing so, they are forgetting who the true victims are. They are completely self-absorbed. This is what abusers do. They re-victimize and it is all about them. This is a key pattern to notice.

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  34. With all due respect and concern for those victimized, victimizing another is not the answer! Paul isn’t talking about SGM or any other on going current affair; he’s referencing a past period of persecution. I don’t like his message or tone in this clip, but lets not link him to an unrelated issue!

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  35. Appreciated Pam Palmer’s comment above.

    I don’t know, William Birch, Matt Chandler comes across as a real dweeb to me.

    B4B. Gary. Re: persecution, here’s the first two prophetic Scriptures that immediately jump to mind. I read them in parallel.

    Daniel 7:25

    He [the eleventh king of the final beast] shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High. . . and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.

    Revelation 13:5-10

    And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain. If anyone has an ear, let him hear:

    If anyone is to be taken captive,
    to captivity he goes;
    if anyone is to be slain by the sword,
    with the sword must he be slain.

    Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

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  36. I don’t believe Paul Washer believes in the ‘prophetic office’ in the church but there is a prophetic tone in what he said. Much of what he has said about the ‘they’ has indeed come to pass. “They’ are trying to remove God from the public arena. Fundamental Christians (those who hold to the fundamentals of the faith) are villified by both secular and nominalist ‘Christian’ sectors. Will it continue to increase? the Bible I read tells me it will. We see no end-times great awakening spoken of in scripture, but we do see increasing persecution of Christians. Speaking what the Bible says concernnig certain things can get you arrested for ‘hate speech’. I think Paul Washer makes some very good observations that do line up with what is in scripture concerning end times (which began in Jesus’ day actually)..

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  37. “No one should claim that a charge against them of being a child molester is somehow linked to persecution of his supposed Christian faith!”

    I quite agree. I am hoping he was just being careless in his word choice.

    I’ve listened to a lot of his sermons. Not so much in the last few years because I found them to be too drama-filled and discouraging. I think they always were; it’s just that I have changed. And–definitely not since I found out he associates with Doug Phillips (Phillips calls him “my good friend”) and took a trip to the Amazon with him a couple of years ago. That lack of discernment put me off listening to what he says.

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  38. Jesus, from the Olivet Discourse: Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake (Matt 24:9).

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  39. monax,

    I am amazed to have it pointed out that the final beast will “WEAR OUT the saints of the Most High.” Does this mean, like, with a rod, switch leather strap or paddle?” Not likely, but this appears to be relevant to the the previous thread’s discussion of Voddie Baucham’s teaching on the topic of spanking children. In the context of promoting the spanking of children, Baucham advocates “an all-day session where you just WEAR THEM OUT.”

    The case could be made that Baucham is advocating that parents treat their children just like the final beast will treat the saints. I really do wish Baucham would publicly explain what he meant, if he meant something different than what his plain words appear to say.

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  40. i only have so much energy, GarWy, that’s why i choose not to participate in the spanking thread—it probably would have wore my a** out. . looks like there’s been quite a discussion there!

    regarding the Adversary wearing out the saints: he seems to be most effectively doing this—at least in America (whereby these models are exported to the ends of the earth)—through the institutional, religious, and spectacular means of the “church” as far as i can see. .

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  41. Adversarial church models in point: Chuck Smith’s franchise of Calvary Chapels; Mark Driscoll’s little kingdom of churches; James MacDonald’s Harvest Bible Chapels; IFB churches; Word Faith cults; ; ; to name a few. .

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  42. The persecution of the saints going on in above churches by the ruling authorities is immense. . these “spiritual authorities” have effectively come in between and even against Christ and His saints. . keeping them dumb and immature and scared or in awe and kept obediently in line with the ruling authorities doctrines of power and control and submission. . it’s crushing of spirit. . it’s ripping the lambs to pieces. .

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  43. Diane, You are absolutely correct. Also, take a look at the conferences at which he speaks and the speakers. He is sounding more and more like some within the Homeschool Movement.

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  44. I just looked up the meaning of “dweeb” and, No, that’s not really the word I was hunting for. . I listened to Matt Chandler a couple of years ago (my first introduction to him via mp3) delivering a message at one of Mark Driscoll’s conferences. . and the man came across as arrogant and disrespectful—all for the laughs, though, I suppose, but nonetheless, I lost all respect for the Chandler. .

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  45. I have and still do work with our youth. If I were ever accused of something like this and even if it were proven false, I would have to leave my church to protect it and give up my ministry cause it would be irreparably damaged cause even if someone recanted their story too many would not believe.

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  46. “I reckon I’m done here……dust shakin’ time…….have a good day, folks.”

    I don’t mind a reasonable discussion, but when somebody insists that their interpretation of the Bible is the only correct, Godly one, reasonable discussions are impossible.

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  47. Random Methodist Reader said:
    JUNE 25, 2013 @ 12:01 PM
    “I reckon I’m done here……dust shakin’ time…….have a good day, folks.”

    I don’t mind a reasonable discussion, but when somebody insists that their interpretation of the Bible is the only correct, Godly one, reasonable discussions are impossible.

    _____________

    And it shouldn’t matter if their interpretation is conservative or liberal or contextual or allegorical, etc.

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  48. Seth, are you kidding me? Any semi- in the loop pastor these days has at least heard of what’s going on with SGM. A few secular, national newspapers have even picked up the story. While he might not be directly speaking of SGM and instead be referring to a past instance, if that is the case, he is being insensitive and careless with his words.

    Pam, I continue to read your posts and be in awe at your level-headedness and respectful tone. Given all you have been through, of any of us, I would expect a snarky response here and there. As a fellow former SGer, I want to say that I believe your daughter and am praying for all of you involved with this case.

    David- Amen about the word “they.” More than once, I had non-Christian friends attend church while I was still in SG and people would chat with them and assume they were Christians (that right there is reflective of a lot that’s wrong with the institution of the “church”, when it is view as primarily for “us” to the point that it doesn’t even occur to you that some people there may not be Christians). The “they” language would start, and my friends would be immediately turned off to Jesus. It was embarrassing to bring friends to church after that happened more than once.

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  49. RP, I don’t doubt that he’s heard of the SGM lawsuit, I just don’t think he’s aware of the controversy and if so, how would he even know that a reference to child molesters comes across as insensitive?

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  50. He’s more likely referring to first century Christian martyrs who were accused eating children during communion. I mean, I don’t know that for sure, it’s just a more likely reference to me. I think you’re reading your experiences into an unrelated conversation.

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  51. i’m thinking if Washer said as much. . he was probably thinking of some case in particular that involved the false accusation of child molestation. . maybe probably from CYS or something. . when did he say this? . the youtube video was uploaded in 2008

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  52. Fair enough. I definitely can’t say that I know his motives. He may not know about the current situation.

    Nevertheless, because statistically, victims don’t make such allegations up nearly as often as perpetrators lie, I think in general, we as Christians should have the attitude of believing victims and not doing this weird thing of viewing alleged perpetrators as the oppressed ones.

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  53. Recovering Pharisee: Thank you! Wellll…I have commented w/ plenty of snark at times! 🙂 And thank you for believing our family.

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  54. I certainly agree with you on that RP, just don’t think it’s necessarily true that Washer doesn’t also agree with you.

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  55. Point taken, Seth.

    Thank you, Pam, for going to bat for the many who have been hurt by SG. Not to equate other kinds of mistreatment with what your family has gone through by any means, but I do see that this lawsuit and exposure is being used to get at the deepr things that have gotten them to this place.

    Actually, this post is a good example of what I mean. While Washer may or may not know about the SG scandal, his broader view of Christians in this culture as the oppressed and his “they” language IS at the root of such brokenness that we see in SGM. The longer an institution goes unchecked, the more “us and them” it becomes, the more skewed the insiders’ perception becomes and the more “right” the insiders are. Eventually, you actually start believing that you have contributed nothing negative to the world, and that the world is out to get you.

    So, while Washer may not be thinking that way, his words certainly seem to me to be on that slippery slope.

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  56. Pam, let me also say that (tho I don’t know you or how you are apart of this SGM scandal) I’m very inclined to believe the plaintiffs in the suit. Me sticking up for Washer on this one small point shouldn’t be viewed as supporting SGM in any way. I hope The Lord blesses you and your family!

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  57. And I completely agree with your last comment RP. Washers sentiments there are dangerous in that regard, and promote many negative things.

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  58. So disturbing to watch this, seeing the very same building where I came to know Jesus on the news for this. If it’s emotional for me, I can only imagine how much more for the families involved with the lawsuit. Renee, you are so brave!

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  59. the Methodist reader declared judgement against this site? huh…. leaves one thinking. the person stated, “but when somebody insists that their interpretation of the Bible is the only correct.” I don’t see where an interpretation of the Bible was in dispute, here? Did I miss something?

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  60. Someone stated that they doubt Washer knew of the SGM “scandal”.

    How does anyone contend what Washer knew and didn’t know, unless they stated such either way? This sort of conjecture seems very difficult to read. Jumping to, or away from a conclusion based on these type comments seems to make for a murky discussion.

    A greater context, with Washer, was mentioned at GRACE web site. It seemed to be an interesting point. But even if Washer didn’t know about SGM “scandal,” he must know of the many other scandals involving churches and sexual abuse. If he doesn’t , I would think he lives in a cave.

    I found Washer’s comments unsettling just the same. He seemed to inculcate the very issues being discussed with patriarchy – maybe not specifically, but in the authoritative comments formulated from his opinion. This type thing has bothered me for years, never mind his hyperbole; it tends to cause condemnation in the hearers and a unhealthy dependency on the speaker for those who really like the speaker.

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  61. murky discussion indeed. .

    i tried, above, to call our attention to the fact that the video was upload back in 2008. . i don’t even think i new who C. J. Mahaney was back then, let alone of the brewing SGM scandal. .

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  62. David and Ric:

    I have about 30 min. (if I don’t get interrupted -please tell my kids to behave) to finish a follow-up post on this same subject. When I originally saw the Washer video, I was not thinking of SGM per se, but of abuse in general. I’ve also read the Grace.net article and in the comments, Seth’s argument is there as well. The author, Victor Vieth has been responding and makes valid observations, IMHO. I’ll post a link to it in the new article, too.

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  63. Pingback: Learn and Discern: Government is Evil | Spiritual Sounding Board

  64. Interesting. Early this morning Born4Battle asks if ANYONE (his emphasis) will discuss a particular topic. I accept the challenge. Next thing I know, B4B is saying things like, “I reckon I’m done here……dust shakin’ time…….have a good day, folks,” and, “Heavy sigh…………………………………” Although the phenomenon I am about to describe is not on full display here, I am inspired to propose another entry for the Glossary of Manipulative Rhetorical Gambits and Code Words:

    Coercive Contemptuous Disdain:

    A belittling, demeaning attitude aggressively exhibited toward another in an attempt to manipulate conformity to the aggressor’s opinions, agendas or other objectives. Cynically attempts to play on the victim’s need to be valued, affirmed, approved and loved; and especially on the victim’s consequent fear of being ridiculed and rejected. Is useful where an aggressor is primarily motivated to prevail—to have their way—as opposed to seeking the true, the good, the lovely. Being a coercive ploy, is viewed by some as being in the nature of witchcraft, though without recourse to supernatural means. May have consequences not intended by the aggressor, including: 1) a tendency to drive the victim away, thereby diminishing rather than increasing prospects for successful control of the victim by the aggressor, and 2) a tendency to come across as a face-saving device to camouflage the aggressor’s failure to otherwise have their way with the victim.

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  65. Gary W. said: Being a coercive ploy, is viewed by some as being in the nature of witchcraft, though without recourse to supernatural means.

    I was not expecting that witchcraft part – lol.

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  66. I wasn’t speaking about this site; I was referring to those that declare their interpretation of the Bible to be the only correct one, and I was speaking generally, not necessarily about this post in particular.

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  67. He’s more likely referring to first century Christian martyrs who were accused eating children during communion. I mean, I don’t know that for sure, it’s just a more likely reference to me.

    I’m sorry, you’re making this about what now? Yeah, no. First of all, the only reference I know of to that actually happening is 2nd century, not 1st. Secondly, a similar accusation was actually widespread in persecution of Jews BY Christians, commonly known as blood libel, and suggesting that it is in any way ‘likely’ that someone who specifically stated ‘child molesting’ was somehow talking about cannibalism because you are uncomfortable with the most obvious interpretation is gross misappropriation. IF he were somehow unaware enough to not know about this particular lawsuit (SGM), that is uninformed to the point of irresponsibility, and while I have no way of judging his level of informedness, it does not matter – even if that were so, the way that it was phrased does not in any way support the idea that he is talking about anything other than the general hysteria about ‘false accusations’ which is a typical response used to silence victims of abuse – suggesting otherwise just so you can give him the benefit of the doubt or appear magnanimous or whatever it is you think you are doing is also irresponsible. If not this particular case, he is most definitely referring to the fact that patriarchal power structures fear accusations of abuse more than abuse itself, and prefer to discount and disbelieve ACTUAL victims so that they can maintain their own pretension to victimisation.

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  68. (Sorry, JA, I know you made a followup post which I have not read yet but the grasping at straws for alternative interpretations in that particular comment was not okay.)

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  69. I’m with Seth and B4B. If one has ever truly followed Paul Washer, then they know this is clearly his eschatology and whether you agree with his eschatology or not is not the issue here. Fear mongering implies something intentional. PW is not doing that. Good grief. This is what he and a lot of others truly, from the heart believe based on their understanding of Scripture – again, that’s the case whether you agree with his interpretation or not.

    There is no need to just hunt stuff down to harp on. I could hardly believe it when I read this was uploaded in 2008! Seriously? PW is premill. Period. All premills preach this.

    It discredits a good cause (like understanding an environment that breeds abuse) when people will connect almost anything to the cause. I see it so much and its so unfortunate.

    Btw, B4B likely just had no time left. We can’t all devote countless hours to following threads and so forth. Honestly, when we are mean spirited on these blogs it does no one any favors. I dismiss everyone’s comments when they are mean spirited. All they show me is that they are being reactionary, angry and not level headed.

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  70. Arclight said:

    I’m with Seth and B4B. If one has ever truly followed Paul Washer, then they know this is clearly his eschatology and whether you agree with his eschatology or not is not the issue here. Fear mongering implies something intentional. PW is not doing that.

    I respectfully disagree with you, Arclight. Why else is he saying it? I’ve listened to him long enough to know that this is how he preaches. I get his drive for holiness. I get his frustration about false conversions. But Washer does indeed intentionally preach this way. His most popular sermon is “Shocking Youth Message.” How can anyone miss it with that kind of title? You better believe he is fear-mongering and it is intentional. He wants the youth to wake up and in the video above he wants us to wake up – – because our children are being snatched right before our eyes – lol.

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  71. I like Paul Washer primarily because of his personal interviews, not his preaching style. Like John MacArthur, he’s very different than how he preaches (as Seth said). But I believe this really stems from his eschatology. He’s very passionate about it, but I think if you were to ask him he might likely say that he is only basing his passion and concern on what he understands from God’s Word and his love for the listening audience. I’ve also seen interviews where Washer clearly has changed his perspective on things he has preached about and admits it. He seems to be very open to correction.

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  72. Yes Caren, that’s been my experience with Washer too. I met him in 2003, and he spoke like this back then; sensationalized when preaching, soft spoken and very kind in person. It’s wrong to link him to the church child abuse cover up crowd.

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  73. JA, to answer your question, he’s likely saying it because he’s a more extreme pre mill, and that necessitates seeing the world as worse and worse. I’m not sure what the question was that led to his answer (that was conveniently left out of the video by whoever made it). If child abuse was an accusation in the first century by the Romans who didn’t understand communion, Washer certainly thinks the world is worse today; he s grasping for shocking terminology to demonstrate what he thinks is going to happen. He s recalling some of the worst persecution in church history and trying to make futuristic comparisons.

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  74. JA, also wanted to note that his message you called “Shocking Youth Message” was titled that by whoever uploaded it to sermon audio. He didn’t stand up and tell ppl what he was calling his own sermon. But you’re correct, he preaches like that for as long as I’ve known him. Most of his sermons I’ve heard we’re long before that one was popular and they all were like it.

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  75. Thanks Seth and Arclight for adding balance to this thread. The sermons I have heard by PW are all very passionate which does not equal fear mongering any more than a person who believes that a fire in the building threatens the lives of the people in the building SCREAMING FIRE!!! I don’t think you have to live in a cave to not be aware of the SGM situation. Until I stumbled upon this site I was unaware of any details concerning SGM on any level.

    I think we sometimes forget that God uses all kinds of people and all kinds of deliveries because people are different and situations are different. I am sure that Paul, Apollos, and Peter did not have the same presentation. I would imagine that some of the Corinthians would have thought Apollos was “putting on airs” while Peter was “too course”, and Paul was legalistic “harping on sin, sin, sin…” Their failure to accept all three speakers as equally inspired by God regardless of their style may have been what caused Paul to call them immature crybabies.

    Perhaps we as Christians should show a little grace to victims of the sins of others and those who are not victims or not victimizers as well.

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  76. Okay, I’m confused. Wouldn’t it ALL “God’s Will,” either way?
    My mom taught me to be unconditionally respectful and courteous of other people’s religious stuff, even if it’s utter whackarooni. But Mom’s not here and I’m only willing to go so far.

    They don’t get to have it both ways.

    If Paul Washer’s theology is true, then faith healing is illogical and can’t work.

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