Grace Community Church, John MacArthur, Master's University / Master's Seminary, Phil Johnson, Todd Friel, Women and the Church

In Which “Dr.” John MacArthur Shows His True Colors about Beth Moore

john macarthur, the master's university, the master's seminary, WASC

Evidently a lot of people are proud of John MacArthur for showing his true colors about Beth Moore. Have a listen to this clip:

It’s one thing to have differing beliefs about doctrinal teachings. It’s a whole other thing to be rude to people who believe different from you.

I’ve said it before and I will say it again. This is not solely about doctrinal issues, but a vile dislike of women, period.

Todd Friel begins the discussion by saying Beth Moore’s name and asks John MacArthur to say a word that comes to mind after saying her name. What does he say, you ask?

“GO HOME!!!”

The audience roared with laughter. It’s apparent that the audience also has an opinion on Beth Moore and feel it’s okay to laugh at his demeaning comment. “Dr.” John MacArthur adds, “There’s no case that can be made biblically for a woman preacher – period – paragraph – end of discussion.”

Then Phil Johnson chimed in: “The word that comes to my mind is narcissistic.”

He’s calling Beth Moore a narcissist. That accusation is once again rude, but it’s also a farce. If he knew anything about narcissism, he would know that narcissists do not show empathy. Go look at Beth’s Twitter timeline. Heck, I just went to her timeline right now and the very first tweet on her reply newsfeed is this one, and she even uses the word, empathy!

Later he accuses her of preaching herself rather than Christ.

Yea, I don’t see empathy there, do you?

Oh, and no empathy in that tweet, either. Nope. Nada.

If you listen to Beth speak, she is humble. She does speak strongly against abuse in the church, including male church leaders who lord over people:

But do her tweets show that she is a narcissist? Look at her feed and how she engages with people. She is the real deal.

John MacArthur claims that Beth Moore wants power. I think he’s projecting. He is worried about women taking away men’s power.

Listen, I’ve dealt first-hand with leaders from John MacArthur’s church and with graduates from The Master’s Seminary. As a whole, I have never felt more inferior in my life as a woman after having talked with them. They do not elevate women. In their eyes, there is only one place for women: at home raising babies and ready to give their husbands sex. There’s nothing wrong with having babies and sex, but to reduce women to only those functions is devaluing and depersonalizing women. Women were given gifts by God to be used for His glory. To squelch them is squelching the word of the Holy Spirit in the lives of female saints of God.

This is evil patriarchy. This is squelching women and their God-given gifts – 50% of God’s creation. It is squelching the Body of Christ because they are not “allowed” to teach/preach. I am so over this nonsense spouted from male patriarchal church leaders. Both men and women are made in God’s image, and there is no mention of inferiority.



116 thoughts on “In Which “Dr.” John MacArthur Shows His True Colors about Beth Moore”

  1. I knew JMac was very patri. But he has a big following, so I wanted to hear him in his own words. He makes claims that I have never heard elsewhere as they are so outlandish, like create and form in Gen 1-2 mean the same thing! What?? John Walton shows that in Scripture only God creates, but humans also form, so they cannot mean the exact same thing. And then with JMac going after charismatics, he shows again he is simply acting beyond his capabilities. I easily put him in the category of toxic teachers.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. So does he have problems with the ministry of Corrie Ten Boom? She was a great lady preacher who preached about how sorry is trying to carry tomorrow’s troubles with today’s grace. Her books have been a blessing to many. Good thing God didn’t have to ask Mac Arthur for permission before giving a teaching gifting to Corrie.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Oops the quote from Corrie is that “worrying is trying to carry tomorrow’s troubles with today’s graces.”

    Like

  4. “Just because you have the skill to sell jewelry on the tv sales channel doesn’t mean you should be preaching.”

    I think these men need to take that to heart and look at themselves rather than others. Isn’t TMU all about John MacArthur’s ability to “hawk” a counterfeit education?

    The thing that bothers me is that the audience is right on cue with the laugh track as these men completely mock this godly woman. Makes me want to throw up to hear these men who are supposed to be shepherds and proclaimers of the message of truth and grace, peacemakers, bear their words like a naked sword.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. I’ve been waiting to hear the push back on Beth Moore from her talk at the Caring Well conference. Go figure JMac is one of the first to offer his opinion. (eye roll)

    Like

  6. I work for a large Christian online and catalog retailer. We recently hosted Beth Moore for a brief visit and she spoke to a small group of employees. The woman is the furthest thing from power-hungry and narcissist. She was transparent and honest. I asked how we could pray for her in the midst of all the personal attacks against her, and against her character. She asked that we would pray for her family especially as this is hard on them also. Yes, a total narcissist isn’t she?? God help us, and God bless Beth.

    Liked by 2 people

  7. MacArthur says, “When you literally overturn the clear teaching of scripture to empower people who want power, you have given up Biblical authority.” I say, “Right back at ya.”

    Perhaps Mr. MacArthur would be more comfortable with Beth Moore described as a prophetess. It is harder to argue against Deborah, Hulda, and the rest.

    Liked by 2 people

  8. JMac has it out for men too when he said that they, “Cave in to women preachers” and, “Roll over for women preachers.” Men have given up biblical authority by letting women preach. And, in case one wonders if he thinks preachers have the power in the church, he said, “This is the highest location they can ascend to that power in the evangelical church to overturn what is clearly scriptural.”

    JMac is hung up on men maintaining power in the church. Along with the family, the church is the last frontier to fight for total power and control.

    Liked by 2 people

  9. I can’t get over how much these dudes hate and despise Beth Moore. I see it all over twitter. Do they realize how they sound? Cause it ain’t good.

    Like

  10. This is not solely about doctrinal issues, but a vile dislike of women, period.

    Exactly. Every one of these men is telling on themselves, the ones snickering in the audience, people we already knew are terrible like Phil J., and everybody on twitter who looks at one empathetic, furthest from a narcissist comment from beth and takes it to drag her for ‘preaching to men’, which is apparently the one unforgivable sin to them.

    Nonsense. Hokum. And proof that none of them is worth listening to until they have repented, changed and begged for forgiveness.

    Liked by 2 people

  11. Thank you for writing this. Says exactly what my feelings are and then even more.
    I’m so disgusted with their behavior and saddened that so many believe and agree with their words.

    Liked by 2 people

  12. Mommaglo….I am so so disappointed in John MacArthur…who in the world does he think he is. And the people mocking and laughing at his horrible opinions. He acts like he is the end all be all of interpretation of scripture. If there is a narcissist here, it would be him. I am beyond belief that anyone could be so arrogant and cruel and foolish.

    Liked by 2 people

  13. He’s a Calvinist and a lot of Calvinists are arrogant,egocentric and narcissistic especially when it comes to women behind the pulpit.

    Like

  14. In case anyone here hasn’t seen this yet.

    Men like MacArthur rely on gender-biased translations in order to support their misogyny while giving lip service to being ‘biblical’. He’s not biblical at all though he puts on the farce that he is.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. JMac, who claims that he was at the NAACP office when Martin Luther King Jr was shot and drove to Memphis to see the crime scene, offers little, if any, words of compassion for the state of black Americans in our country. Instead, he thinks his energy and righteous concern is better placed at curtailing women in ministry and social justice reformation.

    Liked by 2 people

  16. Jec, I have concern for John MacArthur over his sizable ego and spiritual arrogance. Pride goes before the fall. That’s biblical and spiritual and a principle that can’t be escaped.
    The bigger they are, the harder they fall. That’s common sense/knowledge.
    So, no, I don’t have empathy for MacArthur’s extra-large pride and misogyny problem.
    But I do have concern for the judgement that he is heaping upon himself due to this pride problem. Do not be deceived. God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that is what he will reap.
    I pray that MacArthur’s eyes will be open and he will repent. This is the only way he can escape this judgement that he bringing on himself. It is a terrible thing for a sinner to fall into the hands of an angry God.

    Like

  17. JEC: Are you showing empathy to Dr. MacArthur in this article?

    Lol. Do people like JEC think they are making some sort of reasonable point here? Sigh.

    Like

  18. Lea: “Do people like JEC think they are making some sort of reasonable point here?”

    Not entirely sure what JEC’s motivation is nor what his/her gender is. But I’ve seen some men who have drunk so much of the Men=Leaders/Women=Followers/God’s”Design/creationOrder” Kool Aide that they look upon empathy and similar attributes as essentially female and weak. In this they think they make valid points like the above.
    I.E. many of us, being female, should be exhibiting this attribute of empathy while great and mighty leaders (and divinely masculine manly men) should exhibiting judgement, laying down the law, and putting those uppity women in their place.
    So, instead of taking on the masculine job of pointing out sin and wrong doctrine, us wiminfolk need to go back to the kitchen, serve men, and do feminine things like show empathy.

    Like

  19. I.E. many of us, being female, should be exhibiting this attribute of empathy while great and mighty leaders (and divinely masculine manly men) should exhibiting judgement, laying down the law, and putting those uppity women in their place.

    Hm, Mara. I mean, I think there are people who do that.

    But there are kind of dumb ‘debater’ types who like to call out ‘hypocrisy’ but saying stuff like ‘if you have empathy for the bullied you should have empathy for the bullies too’ which seems to be what JEC is saying. To this type of person, you can’t call out any bad behavior without being called a ‘hypocrite’. I think they use it as a tactic, so they can give themselves a little high five in their pretending they ‘won’ when really they just sound like they don’t understand basic stuff.

    What’s clear, is that he doesn’t have any issue with MacArthur’s bad behavior and wants to deflect criticism. It’s very DARVO. It’s fascinating how many people online argue in ways that are so clearly trying to ‘reverse victim order’ and how much it helps to be able to immediately identify it. The fact is, Macarthur is proud of his bullying. He’s not asking for empathy, he thinks he’s right. So do all of these arrogant, condescending, mean men. That’s the entire problem.

    What people like JEC want, is for you not to criticize their heroes. They don’t care who their heroes criticize or how they do it.

    Like

  20. I got it from YouTube. I’m not sure who took the video. Apparently, it was taken at “Truth Matters Conference,” held Oct. 16-18 at Grace Community Church. JO, did I answer your question?

    Like

  21. John MacArthur sounds like a common incel and so does his sidekick Phil Johnson.

    These two Christian men wanted to hurt and degrade a woman. It gives complementarian men great pornographic pleasure to demean and hurt women and little girls. Nothing makes them feel better.

    It is so embarrassing for complementarian males that they keep going on about their pseudo manhoods. Real men do not call themselves or any other man bad@ss or alpha male. That is how insecure childish obnoxious fourteen-year-old boys think and talk.

    I have been around real men. They acted like confident grown-ups. They elevated children, women, and seniors. They do not have to trash talk and degrade people who are smaller and weaker than them to get an ego boost. I felt respected and safe with these men. These men did not have to manipulate, bully, brainwash, or coerce me into respecting them. Their energy and the way they presented themselves is legitimately respectable. I have never felt safe with any Christian man.

    Complementarian men peddle the LIE that they are protectors of women and children. That is a farce. Comp men are protectors of child rapists and wife beaters. Real men have no tolerance for a man that wants to have sex with children. Real men think it is embarrassing for a man to hit a woman. Real men would NEVER kiss up to and protect a child rapist or wife beater.

    Complementarianism is a cult created by incels for incels. It took seventeen years of brainwashing for my mother to agree to marry her incel.

    It is difficult for me to have any respect for the bible when it produces men like Paige Patterson, CJ Mahaney, Doug Wilson, Bill Gothard, Doug Phillips, Al Mohler, Jack, Schaap, Matt Chandler, JimBob Duggar, Larry Solomon, Tom Chantry, Paul Pressler, Mark Driscoll, and John MacArthur.

    As someone who has been studying the misogyny in Islam since 9/11, comp men and Islamist men are all pretty much the same in the way they treat women and children. I have been told by Muslim men online that Muslim women are treated better and have better lives than Christian women. The Muslim women who have escaped these men tell a different story. Both groups want trapped female slaves. Women and children are better off without both groups of these sickos.

    For some reason, it never occurs to incels to be embarrassed about being an incel.

    Like

  22. Real men do not call themselves or any other man bad@ss or alpha male. That is how insecure childish obnoxious fourteen-year-old boys think and talk.

    Although i don’t love the ‘real men/not real men’ dichotomy, whenever someone talks about alpha/beta males it’s a huge red flag to me that they’ve bought into a bunch of MRA nonsense. It’s so weird to hear people try to ‘christianize’ common misogynistic arguments among people who openly hate women, and not for nothing but these guy often go hand in hand with white supremacists too.

    I had an ex that called himself an ‘alpha’ and I wish i’d know that was a big red flag because he turned out to be a jerk… The original guy who observed ‘alpha’ wolves realized it wasn’t even real there, it was just something that had happened in a confined wolf society.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. It frustrates me that comp men want to shut down a competent female but are silent in regards to Paige Patterson, Mark Driscoll and John Piper. I hope Beth Moore leaves the
    Sbc and embraces egalitarianism. If women refuse to take this sh**, it will stop

    Liked by 1 person

  24. I found MacArthur to be unnecessarily harsh. In fact I think this could be a general criticism of him, going back to his Strange Fire conference at least.

    That said, he made a courageous stand against the LGBT movement and its encroachments that I found quite moving. I wonder if he fears that Moore is in the process of compromising on this having edited out material on this from one of her books, and might motivate her huge following to do the same. The jury is out on that one, but she refused to answer questions on the subject. She has potential to do a great deal of damage.

    MacArthur was silly in his comment, because he went on to say some important things, namely the need for the church not to take onboard secular thinking of being woke and intersectionality etc., the insanity going on around us. He is also right that ‘charismatic’ teachers like Paula White need to be discerned. That has all been lost because of his attitude at the beginning.

    I might add, believing 1 Tim 2 is still for today, that I have no problem with women preaching the gospel, praying of prophesying, it is specifically teaching that is the problem. This isn’t nitpicking and MacArthur ought to be more careful (in my humble opinion!) over his use of NT terminology.

    I was not impressed by Moore’s open letter in that she repeatedly claimed to be a leader – I have never liked anybody doing this, the church as the body of Christ recognises leaders as they emerge, they don’t need to tell everyone they are leaders. She did herself no favours there.

    Friel and Johnson did a much better job on YT under the title ‘What shall we do with Beth Moore’. The spirit in which they acted if not exemplary was much better. I think they tried to be fair. I found Moore’s performance on the clips shown of her to be troubling even if I put on my charismatic hat – I do believe in the prompting of the Spirit, but do not like people rather glibly claiming ‘God spoke to them’. Johnson, however, was wrong to see this as an attempt to add to scripture, an overreaction – Moore never wrote it down for one thing! She did rather make herself the centre of attention; entertaining at times, but a bit cringeworthy. Makes Johnson’s antagonism a bit more understandable.

    I found Friel and Johnson versus Moore in the YT clip to be a juxtaposition of rather wooden doctrinaire evanglicalism (Word) over against a rather entertaining anecdote, but from someone actually claiming God was doing something in her life (Spirit). I could well understand that her popularity is because far too many have to put up with the former and are attracted to the latter in search of something more ‘real’, more experimental, a God who does what he says in his book.

    Like

  25. Kas:

    Why do you always try to defend the indefensible? In this instance JMAC. You sure did lots of attacking Beth Moore in your dissertation above IMO.

    Like

  26. You sure did lots of attacking Beth Moore in your dissertation above IMO.

    Right? How dare Beth Moore checks notes admit that she’s a leader? Is it not obvious that she is, agree with her or not? I guess that’s more of women should be seen and not heard – constant background.

    How dare Beth Moore be the ‘centre of attention’, says a man after another man has brought her up so all the men around her can mock her. Clearly shes the narcissist here.

    Like

  27. Does Beth Moore threaten John MacArthur’s view of masculinity? Or perhaps he is jealous and envious of her as a believer and a teacher?

    I believe individuals such as the MacArthur’s of this world are not contending for the true faith once and for all delivered to the saints (I am told JM is a calvinist……oy vey!!!, instead, they are in need to keep speaking publicly for their own agendas; for their own personal fame, their own personal glory, their own personal pocketbooks (using our LORD’S Name in vain for fame and prosperity), and their own personal empires.

    Precisely “who” increases in the vain preachings of man……JESUS or man? And precisely “Who” is supposed to increase……Jesus or man?

    I quit the bad habit of listening to JM years ago, and have been a more ardent student of Jesus, the Living Christ, and a more joyful Christian to-boot! And thankfully, I have also learned through Jesus Himself, that JM, or any other religious individual, or any self promoting “overlord” of people’s minds/body’s/souls, can eliminate my personal name from the Book of Life.

    Would Jesus tell Beth Moore to “go home?” Would Jesus tell John MacArthur, “Depart from Me, for you never knew Me. ???”

    Praise Jesus, my Pastor/Good Shepherd, my Head, my Rock, my KING!

    Like

  28. Oops, I typed in haste once again without proofreading my errors.

    Correction. This sentence SHOULD be read as, “And thankfully, I have also learned through Jesus Himself (via His Words), that JM, or any other religious individual, or any self promoting “overlord” or people’s minds/body’s/souls, CAN NOT eliminate my personal name from the Book of Life.”

    Feeling much better with that gold nugget of truth. 🙂

    Like

  29. I think the truly concerning part of MacArthur’s response was his statement that there is no case to be made for women preachers. He stated this opinion so emphatically he gave his followers no room for inquiry or examination should they want to explore the question. Also, he’s just plain wrong. I’m reading the Zondervan Counterpoints book on Women in Ministry. It appears there most definitely IS a case to be made for women preachers. It is up to individuals and churches to decide if that case is convincing or not. MacArthur has every right to conclude, from his study of the Bible, that pastors, elders, and deacons should be men. But to leave no understanding or tolerance for another opinion is a form of spiritual abuse – using his followers’ deepest convictions about Biblical inerrancy to force them into his opinion. I’m concerned that to MacArthur inerrancy no longer has to do with what the Bible affirms but with what he affirms. This saddens me. I believe I have benefitted from MacArthur’s preaching concerning the centrality of Christ in the gospel (and I don’t want to take that away from him), but I don’t like the ungracious nature of his comments here.

    Like

  30. Would Jesus tell Beth Moore to “go home?”

    Didn’t we used to tell everyone to go and tell the world? After growing up with Go Tell it on the Mountain, Macarthur would uninvite Beth and the rest of us from the mountain. What are evangelicals if they are telling women not to evangelize? Not to tell? I’m not that old, but this is a such a change.

    It appears there most definitely IS a case to be made for women preachers.

    There 100% is. MacArthur gave the game away when he talked of power. He wants it reserved for himself and men like him. They don’t want anyone wrestling with the text and they definitely don’t want anyone listening for a still small voice. They don’t want anyone watching for fruits of the spirit, which are utterly absent in MacArthur here. I don’t care nearly as much about the nuts and bolts of theology as I do about people, and I think that is a theologically sound position.

    Like

  31. @ChristianityHurts:

    John MacArthur sounds like a common incel and so does his sidekick Phil Johnson.

    “Incel” in the sense of a guy who can’t get any so he’s taking revenge on anything and everything female? (Which according to FBI profilers is also an initial rationale for serial killers who target women.)

    By the textbook origin of the term (“Involuntary Celibate”), I’m an Incel. The difference is I got myself a life that doesn’t depend on women throwing themselves on me like groupies on Justin Beiber. Yes, it’s a bummer not being attractive to women. Yes, it’s a bummer never being able to marry and have that long-term cuddly companionship. But I didn’t shoot up Santa Barbara like the Incels’ Saint Elliot or try to hold the whip by divine right like MacArthur or that Jerk with the Kirk in Moscow Idaho.

    As for “fourteen year old boys”, there are a lot of arrested development cases out there animating adult bodies. Though another pattern that might be in play is some of these guys may have been burned by a woman in their past and got permanently stuck in the Rage Phase of that breakup. Add Entropy letting it fester and…

    @KAS:

    That said, he made a courageous stand against the LGBT movement and its encroachments that I found quite moving.

    Note the shift to the Vast Enemy, Teh Fags(TM).
    Enemy of My Enemy is My Friend.

    Like

  32. @Katy:

    Does Beth Moore threaten John MacArthur’s view of masculinity? Or perhaps he is jealous and envious of her as a believer and a teacher?

    When all you have to brag about is what you pack below the belt, any threat to that is a threat to your entire being, life, the universe, and everything.

    Like

  33. Note the shift to the Vast Enemy, Teh Fags(TM).

    HUG, I also noted that. For such a small population, they certainly take up a lot of these people’s headspace!

    Though another pattern that might be in play is some of these guys may have been burned by a woman in their past and got permanently stuck in the Rage Phase of that breakup.

    Often when you dig in it is just someone who didn’t like them back. I was reading a guy the other day lamenting that women don’t like him, only to read that he has NEVER asked anyone out?? Women aren’t mindreaders, kid. Sheesh.

    As far as incel’s go, the definition hardly even applies really. Many of them appear to be voluntarily celibate, by virtue of being absolutely terrible, never asking anyone out, scaring the bejeezus out of women, etc. There is some massive overlap between incels, MRAs, pickup artists, MGTOW, and the alt-right, and I feel like there are a lot of dudes floating in and out of various categories at any particular time. It’s creepy and disturbing.

    Like

  34. KAS,

    I might add, believing 1 Tim 2 is still for today, that I have no problem with women preaching the gospel, praying of prophesying, it is specifically teaching that is the problem.

    And this is an attitude which I’ve never understood, and I still don’t. Preaching and prophesying both include teaching. If you’re not against women doing the first two, how can you be against women teaching? Makes zero sense to me.

    …he went on to say some important things, namely the need for the church not to take onboard secular thinking of being woke and intersectionality etc., the insanity going on around us.

    And why is that “insanity”? How is it “insane” for me to be sensitive to the experiences of other people that I haven’t endured?

    Like

  35. MacArthur gave the game away when he talked of power.

    Yep, same here. I think he tipped his hand. It demonstrates that, in MacArthur’s mind, the position of “pastor” is all about power. And nothing about service.

    Liked by 2 people

  36. And this is an attitude which I’ve never understood, and I still don’t. Preaching and prophesying both include teaching.

    SKIJ, I feel like they’re either splitting hair constantly or gatekeeping titles. None of it really makes sense. At least the hardcore patriarch people are consistent but they are also terrible…

    Like

  37. @Lea
    “After growing up with Go Tell It On the Mountain, MacArthur would uninvited Beth and the rest of us from that mountain.”

    Thank-YOU for mentioning that beloved song Lea……I loved singing that one as a child and still, to this day! It’s certainly a classic filled with deep meaning for the believer’s soul!

    You really added great joy to me day, Lea!

    Like

  38. Note to MacArthur….. religious quid pro quo…..

    The “woman who is supposed to “Go Home or Phone Home,” “one of the two anyway…..still begs the question:

    “Can I still wait on men and pour their coffee during your c’hurch pot luck dinner (or “pot blessed dinner” if the c’hurch l’eadership decides the word “luck” is an evil word) after the Sunday c’hurch service….p’leeeeeeease, Mr. MacArthur? And I promise to not spill the pipering hot coffee in your lap. :)”

    Is “pouring the sunday morn coffee” a leadership position…….as in “coffee ministry?”

    Like

  39. I recently heard two Christian women on different occasions say that it’s okay for women to preach, teach and prophesy but not pastor!

    Like

  40. MOT You sure did lots of attacking Beth Moore in your dissertation above IMO.
    I was critical of both MacArthur and Moore, which is not the same thing as ‘attacking’.

    You are surely not going to say there aren’t problems with the direction in which Moore appears to be going? There would appear to be a tweet (mentioned by James White) in which Moore recently talked about a conversation with Jesus in which he asked about her day, and on being told it was stressful replied ‘would you like me to change it for you’. I have encountered this sort of thing before, usually from super-spiritual or pseudo-spiritual people who were at best flaky.

    Phil Johnson’s comment on her being narcissistic is because she all too often inserts herself into her teaching. That would tally with his appraisal of her in the longer YT clip I mentioned. above.

    Like

  41. SKIJ Preaching and prophesying both include teaching. If you’re not against women doing the first two, how can you be against women teaching? Makes zero sense to me.

    I don’t see why women shouldn’t preach (herald) the gospel, be evangelists. Prophesying I would define as a word from the Lord to encourage or build up for a specific meeting or person in a meeting. It is not prepared, but usually relatively spontaneous, given by the Spirit. Philip had four daughters who prophesied (imagine that!) and, like prayer, is a gift for women (with head covered!!) as well as men. In Rom 12 where Paul lists gifts, he distinguishes teaching from prophecy, as he does prophets from teachers in 1 Cor 12.

    If you define teaching as being a prepared exposition, explanation of scripture, this is what Paul limits in 1 Tim 2. Women should not ‘be a teacher of’ men nor exercise authority over them. James futher suggests limiting teaching to a few men, judgement being more strict!

    Now anybody might learn from a woman evangelist or from a prophecy given by a woman (or interpretation of a tongue …), no problem, but this is not the same thing as expounding scripture in the gathered church, which is also linked to the ministry of overseer, also limited to men.

    Now John MacArthur has the high honour of preaching I think the worst sermon I have ever heard. It is on YT and on the subject of tongues (speaking in). He is militantly against any notion such gifts, including prophecy, are for today (‘ceased’ ‘passed away’). iirc it was in this sermon that he made preaching the equivalent of prophecy, as the Spirit-given prophecy in the NT stopped with the apostles. ‘When I am preaching on Sunday, I am prophesying’ – giving the Word of God. Which amused me, because in his desperation to discount modern charismatic claims to having authentic NT prophecy (and I know charlatans also abound) he contradicts his complementarian position on women when he redefines it as preaching sermons. The NT is quite clear that women (with head covered!) may prophesy.

    I’m not someone who believes is absolutely rigid definitions of the gifts of the Spirit, there is some leeway for overlap, but this does not mean the apostle isn’t clear on the ministry of teaching and overseeing as against the other gifts and ministries.

    I would love to go to MacArthur’s church and do an exposition of 1 Cor 14. I reckon (do bear with me in a little foolishness) I could give them plenty to think about!

    Like

  42. Kas:

    I always hesitate to comment to you. You seem to me to always be ready to attack women and be a provocateur . IMO you did not need to pile on at this time in Beth Moore’s life, but MacArthur and others like him would applaud you.

    Like

  43. KAS said, “Phil Johnson’s comment on her being narcissistic is because she all too often inserts herself into her teaching.”

    I spent my hard earned income purchasing a “MacArthur Study Bible.” No kidding, it said “MacArthur Study Bible” on its cover, and each and every page of that expensive publication, had a muted “M” printed in cursive on each and every page. So when reading MacArthur’s version of his scriptures, the reader has the displeasure of seeing MacArthur’s “M” in the backdrop ON EACH PAGE.

    For Phil Johnson (whoever he is….have never followed him or his teachings anywhere, Praise our LORD!) to call Beth Moore a narcissist, is laughable and ignorant, considering he is in the presence of one of the greatest narcissists of all time……JM.

    Also, in viewing the clip (via youtube) of these individuals sitting around mocking Beth Moore, with the audience laughing in the background at various comments, I would suggest that these boys would make a superb opening monologue for Saturday Night Live as they have nailed the spirit of their age……unholiness and unrighteousness.

    Like

  44. You are surely not going to say there aren’t problems with the direction in which Moore appears to be going?

    You don’t have to agree with someone’s views entirely to treat them as a person worthy of decency and respect, not mocking disrespect. Whether or not you agree with her, she hasn’t done anything to warrant that kind of behavior.

    There would appear to be a tweet (mentioned by James White) in which Moore recently talked about a conversation with Jesus in which he asked about her day, and on being told it was stressful replied ‘would you like me to change it for you’. I have encountered this sort of thing before, usually from super-spiritual or pseudo-spiritual people who were at best flaky.

    Lots of Christians believe in prayer, and hearing directly from god (whatever that means) even if you don’t. it doesn’t make them ‘pseudo-spiritual’ it arguably makes them more spiritual.

    If you define teaching as being a prepared exposition, explanation of scripture, this is what Paul limits in 1 Tim 2.

    This is what I mean about nonsense word parsing and position gatekeeping. How dare beth actually study something before she talks about it? Women aren’t allowed to do that? But if she said something that sounded like a prophecy you would probably find it pseudo spiritual. I guess all women are allowed is to share directly with someone (but not a man heavens!) if they are properly ‘covered’ whatever that means?

    All of this is made up parsing of women’s roles and it’s silly. If you want to do it fine, but don’t run around calling everyone else heretics and being a jerk about it.

    Liked by 1 person

  45. KAS said, “Phil Johnson’s comment on her being narcissistic is because she all too often inserts herself into her teaching.”

    To say that about beth moore when I’ve sat through I don’t know how many sermons where people talked endlessly about their spouse, or kids, or golf game…

    Liked by 1 person

  46. Katy – I spent my hard earned income purchasing a “MacArthur Study Bible.”

    I have heard very little of MacArthur. But I do remember seeing a clip of him discussing the version of the bible he used to go with his study notes. In the course of the conversation he said a popular version containing his notes would be good ‘to get the truth out’. I flinched at that. If he meant the bible as the word of God as truth, fine, and also the bible bringing us knowledge of Jesus as the Word of God, also fine, but I am almost certain he meant his notes and interpretations were necessary to understand the truth. It was an extraodinary claim to make, and came across to me as mind-numbingly arrogant.

    To argue say for his calvinist understanding of the NT is fine, but to claim it as truth goes too far, it is only true to the extent that it correctly reflects the teaching found in the NT.

    Phil Johnson was/is MacArthur’s sidekick in publishing, and published a blog I used to read. Phil was usually reasonable, but his two sidekicks on the blog got every increasingly opinionated and harsh, and in the end I stopped reading, but not before that attitude had done more than a little harm to me personally.

    Johnson was the first I believe to comprehensively dismantle Mark Driscoll and his weird over-sexualised preaching.

    Like

  47. KAS, “In Rom 12 where Paul lists gifts, he distinguishes teaching from prophecy, as he does prophets from teachers in 1 Cor 12.”

    There’s a problem with this. Much of Christendom believes that these gifts are not unique, but are rather inclusive. “And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.” So, the concept applied to churches today is that pastors’ gifting includes eldership, and the gift of the elder includes the diaconate. But… that applies above, too. The Apostles’ gifting included prophecy, teaching, miracles. We see the seven in Acts were teachers who also performed miracles.

    That means that, using the logic of the church, that the gift of prophecy CANNOT be separated from the gift of teaching. This is another passage that the church faithfully applies to MEN ONLY.

    Like

  48. Kas. Calvinism is not biblical and does not reflect the teachings of the NT. Your ignorance is bliss. No wonder your comments are being frowned upon here.

    Like

  49. @James, much of what Calvin said was spot on. The problem was that it wasn’t understood as a stepping stone in continuous reformation, but instead was taken to be the stake in the ground of orthodox theology. Many of the ills of the church are not specifically issues with Calvin, but the belief that the ~1500’s-1700’s represented the pinnacle of church theology from which we’ve fallen.

    Authoritarianism isn’t restricted to Calvin
    Patriarchy isn’t restricted to Calvin
    Spiritual Abuse / “Worm Theology” (learned that term today) isn’t restricted to Calvin

    It’s just that “Reformed” churches are much more likely to pine for the Authoritarian, Patriarchal and Spiritually Abusive legacy he left.

    I belong to a Reformed/Calvinistic church, but instead of applying his doctrine in the ways above, they are non-authoritarian, non-patriarchal and non-abusive, despite holding many Calvinistic doctrines. They just don’t apply them in a controlling and manipulative way.

    That said, much damage has been done in his name.

    Like

  50. “Much of what Calvin said was spot on” No much of what Calvin said was unbiblical and a blueprint on what eisegesis really is(The Institutes).

    Like

  51. James – Calvinism is not biblical and does not reflect the teachings of the NT. Your ignorance is bliss. No wonder your comments are being frowned upon here.

    My comments aren’t being read very carefully. 🙂

    What I said was “To argue say for his calvinist understanding of the NT is fine, but to claim it as truth goes too far, it is only true to the extent that it correctly reflects the teaching found in the NT.”

    Calvinism is his – MacArthur’s – doctrine, but it isn’t mine. I see a lot of truth in it, but there are parts of the NT where imo it doesn’t fit. You have to do mental gymnastics to make some passages fit the overall scheme. All the ~ isms argued about in the church tend to have this weakness.

    I also think it true to say that popular calvinism – and popular arminianism for that matter – are often caricatures of what both originators of these theologies actually taught and thought.

    Like

  52. James, “No much of what Calvin said was unbiblical and a blueprint on what eisegesis really is”

    Care to share some examples? This sounds much like conversations I have had with Atheists who claim the Bible is full of contradictions yet have never actually read any of it.

    Like

  53. Examples?

    How about The Institutes. There you go.

    Calvinism is not based on scripture no matter how much you spin it around.

    Like

  54. Saying this with a smile: I don’t know that we’re going to come to an adequate understanding of Calvin’s Institutes–all 900 or so pages of it–on this forum. Never mind that’s only a small portion of the ~46 volumes of theology he published. Interest of mine, but suffice it to say that I don’t think I’ll do the debate justice by engaging here. So I won’t.

    One thing I will say is that I’m not persuaded that MacArthur’s problem is primarily, or even significantly, Calvinism. What he did, really, was to speak recklessly and cruelly against Ms. Moore, and it’s a pattern I’ve seen him repeat with regards to things like social justice and critical race theory. One might argue that misogyny is not even clearly implicated when one views the wider pattern of recklessness. (you might prove misogyny another way, but I’m not persuaded that’s the main problem here)

    I’d almost argue it’s a pattern that I’ve seen way too much in fundagelicalism; when you disagree with someone, make sure you impugn his motives and throw in a few other good insults. Sometimes I wonder if we even know what we’re doing when we do it.

    Like

  55. KAS,

    If you define teaching as being a prepared exposition, explanation of scripture, this is what Paul limits in 1 Tim 2.

    Exactly, if you define teaching that way. I don’t. As far as I’m concerned, teaching is teaching, and it doesn’t matter where or how it’s done. If it’s wrong for Beth Moore to teach men simply because she’s a woman, then it was wrong for Priscilla to teach Apollos, and for Huldah to instruct the king of Judah and his officials.

    Even if I were to accept your definition of “teaching” in this single verse — which I don’t — I fail to see why a penis (or a Y-chromosome, if you prefer) should be so necessary for that particular task.

    Like

  56. Johnson was the first I believe to comprehensively dismantle Mark Driscoll and his weird over-sexualised preaching.

    Oh, really? Do you happen to remember what year that was? I’m interested to know whether Dee and Deb of the Wartburg Watch might have beaten Johnson to it. They were calling out Driscoll’s nonsense for years before any of the evangelical top dogs did anything about it.

    Or do they not count because they’re women?

    Like

  57. SKIJ – I honestly can’t remember how long ago Pyromaniacs started criticising Driscoll. I stopped reading it years ago, but I would guess about 12 years ago. I think they were using him to ride their anti-charismatic hobbyhorse as much as anything, but the critique rang true.

    Whatever you think of Pyro, they were very good at exposing the errors of say the emergent church and its drift away from the bible.

    Why do you think there would ever be a problem if women have discerned his errors too, and exposed them?

    Like

  58. I have not read or watched any of Beth Moore’s books or videos. But I’ve read some of the criticisms of her coming from the TGC crowd which includes the likes of John Piper and “go Home” John here and while I think her “sex” is the surface issue, underneath that are deeper issues of how one should read and engage with the Bible that also threaten these jerks. From the articles that are criticizing her, these guys seem to be threaten because she teaches Lectio Divina as a technique for evangelicals to read and understand scripture. For those not familiar with this, it means divine reading in Latin and has been the technique of studying and engaging in the Bible used since the earliest years of Christianity and encouraged by monastery orders. Lectio Divina is a four step process of read, meditate, pray and contemplate. They also don’t like her encouragement of contemplative prayer. However, Christianity didn’t begin with John Calvin and the 1500s and Beth Moore has hit a cord with evangelicals, especially women that have sat under the expository type of teaching from the likes of “Go Home” John and his other Calvinist buddies. Jesus Himself did not teach expository Torah. Jesus taught in parable of every day things that ordinary people encounter. I would stack up Lectio Divina and contemplative prayer as “biblical” against the line by line expository teaching from these jerks. The early has stood the test of time in Christianity, expository is a recent American Calvinist invention. There is more to scripture than line by line expository or rote line by line memorization. I think that is why she is so popular and has hit a cord beyond her sex and she threatens these guys because she is giving tools to the evangelical world that they have not had but have been used by Christians pre-1500s.

    Like

  59. A Catholic, “There is more to scripture than line by line expository or rote line by line memorization.”

    Yes. I used to hear that “expository” preaching was Gawd’s(TM) Ordained Homiletics – a pastor could not be approved without preaching expository sermons in my former church.

    The problem is that slicing and dicing scripture takes peoples’ eyes off the context of what’s being taught and allows the pastor to jump from verse to verse with vastly different interpretations. I’ve heard “expository” sermons where one word or phrase is taken out of context and then amplified and twisted.

    As a small example, the words “faith” and “works” in James have a different meaning and context than Paul’s writings, but an expository preacher could, with a straight face, preach legalism from James, and, in fact, I’ve heard a few sermons where there was deliberate blurring of that message for the purpose of discouraging born-again Christians who didn’t ‘measure up’ to James’s ‘standard’.

    Like

  60. Thanks for the info, Mara. I was pretty sure that the Deebs had their concerns about “Driscoll the Despicable” for about a decade, but I wasn’t sure of the exact year.

    Why do you think there would ever be a problem if women have discerned his errors too, and exposed them?

    Well, after all, if women aren’t supposed to be teaching men, then certainly all Christian men (like you and me) ought to ignore what they have to say about abusive and evil pastors. Because men can only learn from other men about spiritual matters. So even if Dee and Deb had beaten Phil Johnson to the punch, only Johnson’s efforts count. Right? 😉

    Like

  61. Serving Kids: Firstly, I hope things are well with you in your current circumstances (concerning what you wanted prayer for).

    If it’s wrong for Beth Moore to teach men simply because she’s a woman, then it was wrong for Priscilla to teach Apollos, and for Huldah to instruct the king of Judah and his officials.

    I think you have to take all of the bible with regard to women and roles to avoid a distorted picture. This must result in believing in women having gifts and ministries, including discernment, and not being ‘silent’. Everything is allowed, unless expressly prohibited.

    In a teaching and learning situation in the church, I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent applies. It applies to Beth Moore and anyone else, and no amount of ‘the Holy Spirit told me otherwise’, a common assertion, can negate this – at least if you accept the NT as your authority.

    Priscilla and hubby teaching Apollos was fine, it was not in the gathered church, and was not linked to an exercise of authority. In my mind the two are linked, it is the combination that is the problem. I wonder if Priscilla prayed for Apollos to be baptised in/filled with the Holy Spirit, and maybe prophesied over him? Nowt wrong with that!

    I might add on this perennial subject that I have given the egalitarian version of 1 Tim 2 a fair hearing. It can make sense, but relies on assumptions beyond what is actually in the text, and doesn’t work considering the passage as a whole. I might add I have nothing on Methusalah, but I am older than these new interpretations – perhaps ought to give pause for thought.

    When ignored it leads to what Paul is trying to prevent. I have deception in mind, and this might have been in MacArthur’s mind in what he said after he made his tactless comment. I think there is an example of this in this very thread that illustrates this, but it’s late!

    Like

  62. KAS, “In a teaching and learning situation in the church, I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent applies. It applies to Beth Moore and anyone else, and no amount of ‘the Holy Spirit told me otherwise’, a common assertion, can negate this – at least if you accept the NT as your authority.”

    Yes, but that has to be held in the context of Titus 2: “Older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.”

    And, of course, complementarians say that such “teaching” must be non-scriptural practical instruction, although the root word is the same “teach” that is attributed to pastors. Thus, what Beth Moore believes to be her call – specifically teaching women – is not only condoned by scripture, but is encouraged. So, here, the complementarians have to say, “Yes, Paul said the women should teach, but he didn’t really mean teach.” Just like they say “Deborah wasn’t really a prophet” and “Phoebe wasn’t really a deacon”

    At some point, KAS, you have to question whether God chose the same words to mean different things when applied to males and females, or whether it was men.

    Like

  63. Thus, what Beth Moore believes to be her call – specifically teaching women – is not only condoned by scripture, but is encouraged.

    This is what stands out about all of this Beth Moore dustup. She is still sticking to this prescribed role and it’s not enough for them. It’s not enough for them because she dares to say anything at all, instead of deferring to them.

    They don’t want her to teach women even, they just want her to ‘go home’. Because they don’t care so much about the bible as they do about maintaining their own power and status, over men but especially over women.

    Liked by 1 person

  64. Lea – They don’t want her to teach women even …

    Have you never considered that the concerns over Beth Moore are not gender-related, but rather to the content of her teaching? I can think of a couple of things in which she is on the one had into serious religious error when it comes to experience, and on the other appearing to cave in with regard to a major ethical and doctrinal dimension. This is all the more serious as she has 750 000 followers on twitter, and could do a vast amount of damage.

    She also course has the potential to do a lot of good, but that seems less likely at the moment.

    MacArthur was tactless, but the overreaction to this has obscurred more important issues.

    Like

  65. KAS, MacArthur’s University is at risk of having its accreditation removed because of his authoritarian fear mongering and nepotism. I don’t think he has any sort of moral authority to call out Beth Moore. And, what he said was not “she has some theological issues”, but that there is “no Biblical support for women teachers”. You’re again trying to move the goalposts.

    When it comes to “serious religious error”, I find often when you raise that objection, what you are objecting to is treating certain categories of people with kindness and respect vs. condemning them.

    Like

  66. Have you never considered that the concerns over Beth Moore are not gender-related, but rather to the content of her teaching? I can think of a couple of things in which she is on the one had into serious religious error

    Newsflash. Sometimes people are going to disagree with you on points of doctrine!

    Let’s not pretend that’s why he wants her to ‘go home’.

    Like

  67. MacArthur was tactless, but the overreaction to this has obscurred more important issues.

    No. It’s simply that you don’t think this is an ‘issue’ that matters.

    Like

  68. What John MacArthur said: “Go home.” then “There is no case that can be made biblically for a woman preacher. Period. Paragraph. End of discussion.”

    If you want to bring in your red herrings about theological precision, that’s fine, but what is being argued here is specifically MacArthur’s misunderstanding of Beth Moore’s calling – to teach women – or worse, his ignorance that the Bible specifically calls women to teach other women.

    Like

  69. Mark and Lea – I’m not talking here about doctrinal differences of the meaning of the Greek word for foreknow, or a millenial view or church organisation …

    Moore has recently deleted without acknowledgement a section of a book in which she formally took a strong stance against homosexuality. I could well imagine MacArthur is bothered by this, it is a serious issue on which too many evangelicals have started to compromise. He hasn’t. Moore could do enormous damage is she caves in on this, although to be fair to her she hasn’t yet. I hope very much she won’t.

    The other area is pseudo-christian mysticism, lectio divina, and similar things like centering prayer. This is not taught in the bible, indeed its advocates don’t claim it is, and it is syncretisic with other religions such as Hinduism. I can think of nowhere in the NT that remotely indicates we should look inside to find God, all the more so after inducing an altered state of consciousness. This wisdom is not from above, but is earthly, soulish, demonic, and I am glad I was warned off it in my very early Christian experience. I have not had much direct contact with it, but I have seen people getting messed up with similar things such as inner healing.

    I just wonder if this is the source of Moore’s supposed ‘hearing from God’. Accusing her of adding to scripture is over the top as criticism, but any word she may claim to have had needs to be judged and weighed, not just accepted. Leaving aside the unbiblical techniques to try to experience ‘God’, I part company with MacArthur in that I do believe in the Spirit’s prompting and guiding, and in such gifts as knowledge and wisdom, and prophecy. All this needs to be tested against scripture which is the canon, the measuring rod to prevent us going into deception. ‘The Lord gave me a picture’ is at best iffy.

    These issues are more important than worrying about MacArthur’s stand against ‘women preachers’, which he has preaching for 40 years or more, no surprises there.

    Is figuratively or literally getting women into the pulpit worth the price of compromised Christian ethics and involvement in potentially dangerous spiritual activities? You don’t need to tell me that men can be deceived too, it is often men of dubious faith who teach these dodgy things, but in this instance we are talking about a supposedly evangelical woman.

    Like

  70. KAS said,
    “MOT – where on earth have you got the impression I am ‘anti-women’?”

    Every post you’ve made on this blog,
    your refusal to acknowledge that complementarianism can and does harm women, in spite of the fact several women have told you so repeatedly.

    KAS said,
    “but the overreaction to this has obscurred more important issues.”

    They’re not over-reacting.

    If you were being held back and/or demeaned by a woman on the basis of your physical anatomy alone (that you are biologically male), you’d not dismiss push back as being a case of “over reacting”

    Why are you still posting here? I do wish you would get lost and find another blog or site to post to.

    Like

  71. Lea said (to KAS I think):

    “Newsflash. Sometimes people are going to disagree with you on points of doctrine!
    Let’s not pretend that’s why he wants her to ‘go home’.”
    — end quote —

    A point I raised on Twitter about a week ago is that Beth Moore is a complementarian herself.

    Moore does NOT identify as an gender egalitarian or a mutualist, and yet, she is still being attacked by MacArthur and guys like him as though she is one (not that it’s acceptable for complementarians to treat egals as trash as they often do).

    Even when and if a woman is a complementarian and does not argue against comp dogma about women shouldn’t be preachers and yada yada, they still go on the attack.

    More evidence that complementarianism is sexism, many comps are sexists, and they don’t truly believe in that sugar coated bile they use to promote their abhorrent beliefs, “equal in worth just not in role.”

    They sure don’t treat comp women (such as Moore) as though she’s “equal in value”

    Oh. Plenty of men disagree with other men over doctrine, and yet, I don’t necessarily see complementarian men such as MacArthur insisting that all men should be barred from preaching and teaching.

    Not all comp men agree with all comp men over comp, yet I don’t recall ever having seen comp men deducing from this that men should not be permitted to preach, teach, or lead.

    The vast majority of us all agree that Benny Hinn is a crock. It’s not as though having testosterone, a penis, and Adam’s apple makes someone immune from teaching or believing in false doctrine.

    Jesus of Nazareth often fought and got into heated religious disputes with other men.
    So I guess that means men should not be allowed to preach or teach.

    Like

  72. “in which she formally took a strong stance against homosexuality” Yup, called it.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lectio_Divina

    Yup… Reading and meditating on scripture. It must be of the Devil. Also… John Calvin promoted it.

    I’m guessing you grew up in an anti-Catholic church, and whatever the Catholics practiced must have defacto been mystical, syncretistic and of the Devil.

    Lectio Divina follows a four step process, read, meditate, pray, contemplate. The first three steps are nearly straight from scripture. The last might seem mystical, but perhaps not, when it comes to things like “Be still and know that I am God” (Ps. 46).

    Like

  73. Mark – Reading and meditating on scripture. It must be of the Devil.

    No-one is saying it is wrong to read and meditate on scripture, the mind fully engaged. The mysticism here is not reading scripture, it is mindlessly using a word of phrase in order to enter an altered state of consciousness and to encounter ‘God’, to have a spiritual experience, or find the divine spark within. It is not quite but nearly prayer consisting of ‘vain repetitions’ like the ‘heathen’ that Jesus taught against.

    It is not sanctioned anywhere in scripture, and I think it presumption for us to assume that God will protect us from our own folly when we ignore mundane biblical fellowship and drift into a kind of gnosticism for something more exciting, and practices that work with other religions and their gods – the heathen. In this respect I think it is demonic. Departing from the faith and giving heed to doctrines of demons; another Jesus, another spirit.

    Have you never read testimony of Christians who used to dabble in the occult being horrified that the same techniques they formerly used have found their way into some so-called churches, denomination irrelevant, slightly disguised by Christian sounding terms?

    Take a look at Ps 46 – it has nothing to do with prayer, let alone centering prayer or any other dodgy practice.

    Like

  74. KAS,

    I would have to faithfully agree with you on your November 3, 2019 at 4:19 PM comment thread. You stated your point well and I appreciate you stating the truth as mysticism has been around since the fall, as well as adding extrabiblical revelations to our Holy Scriptures that are not in the original texts.

    The “god told me” syndrome has been used as a “spiritual hammer” against Jesus’ sheep to pound them into submission in following a certain man or woman preacher, teacher, or spiritual guru, or spiritual “authoritarian” within the c’hurch since the beginning of its inception.

    Many of us could write a book based on our experiences with abusive people within the c’hurch industrial complex, with sound chapters on “complementarianism,” a word on found in the original texts of Scriptures (the word “trinity” is not found there either!”, as well as “mysticism 101!”

    When we began attending a baptist c’hurch with an assembly of god p’astor man, speaking in tongues (and only the p’astor man interpreted them by the way) and getting drunk in the s’pirit were the “biggy” spiritual practices. After lengthy musical numbers of repeated words…..and this went on and on and on and on, most of the pew sitters’ brains were hypnotized into an “alpha state” and the power of suggestion was used in creating a false religious experiences. As people walked to the front of these types of c’hurches (have seen this practice too many times to count) in a zombie state, they were “touched” by the wolf man in sheep’s clothing and immediately fell to the floor, thus creating the “catcher ministry – also not found in the original Scriptures)” so as people wouldn’t break their necks during the hard fall on the concrete or wooden floors. My former baptist women friends would brag and boast of their children attending Mike Bickles I’HOP and Todd Bentley’s (a pedophile) r’evival meetings and coming back with such a “strong anointing!” Anointing for what!?!

    I had several men and women from that c’hurch, say to me “god told me to tell you………blah, blah, blah, blah, and another blah.” So I guess the Holy Spirit wasn’t powerful enough in my own relationship with Jesus Christ in teaching me His Scriptures and His Way, that I needed “spiritual overlords” to obtain these extra biblical revelations for me…..while “being drunk in a s’pirit flopping around on the floor like a wet fish out of water and laughing hysterically like a hyena!” One woman “shared” with me of her “birthing experience” while on her living room floor as she was “hit with the s’pirit.” So I asked her, where in the Bible should I look for that “birthing experience” so I can test the Scriptures for myself like a Berean. Crickets on her end.

    The last sermon from that man-made pulpit that I heard in that abusive baptist c’hurch before I ran with record time out of that building, never looking back and never stepping one foot through that door ever again, was the proverbial “Jezebel sermon.” I will never forget those snake-like eyes of that proud p’astor man and that haughty, smug look on his face as he paced back and forth in the front of us speaking lies to us as if they were the truth from a jesus figure. He was so desperate in elevating himself through his own vain mystical experiences and “hearing god speak” to him, that he had to use “the pulpit” to beat up the women in “his c’hurch” (as he liked to call it), to submit to his spiritual authority.

    Two weeks later, he was asked to leave his power p’astor position for pursuing a married woman he had “counseled.” We never heard a personal testimony on “repentence” from his lips……from his important pulpit system, nor an apology to the rest of us he abused emotionally, verbally, and spiritually. Again, the cricket syndrome. To this day, my comp husband sits under this p’astor man’s bible study and continues to defend this wolf’s honor………because all comp men “love those good ole’ Jezebel sermons!” Buzzards of a feather actually do flock together in the fellowship of eating the carcasses of women they destroy.

    Now, I set my eyes, heart, mind and earthly life on Jesus, for He has never lied to me, nor has He ever led me to muddy waters, nor has He encouraged me to follow any p’astor man or woman in worshipping or honoring them (idolatry)……and that frankly, makes c’hurch and spiritual folks pretty angry!

    Blessed be the Name of Jesus!

    Like

  75. The “god told me” syndrome has been used as a “spiritual hammer” against Jesus’ sheep to pound them into submission in following a certain man or woman preacher, teacher, or spiritual guru, or spiritual “authoritarian” within the c’hurch since the beginning of its inception.

    Hi Katy! I think there is a huge difference between saying that you were praying and felt god leading you one way or other and saying that god said that someone else needs to do something. I don’t see Beth Moore telling people what to do in these criticism of her usually. (Although i guess people could read her differently, if she says people should stop being misogynists well obviously i’m on her side whether she’s thinking it or saying she feels it came from prayer)

    What is the still small voice but that? Whether you call it mysticism, or intuition, or the spirit…I think it’s the same thing. Getting a prodding. Growing up in a rather bapticostal type church, I am perhaps more forgiving of this, although it’s not really present in my current denomination.

    I think their criticism of her in general is rooted in misogyny, and they comb through her doctrine to justify it.

    Whenever I hear people criticize her on this particular point, the more charismatic bits, it often reads to me as a class thing imo. Like, praying to god and thinking you might get an answer back is declasse. IDK.

    Like

  76. Hello Lea,
    I completely understand what you are saying in your comment thread, however, whenever a believer such as meself is on the receiving end of extra-biblical revelation, I will completely disagree with no shame nor guilt. Many of us who are indwelled with God, the Holy Spirit, upon being saved are shamed, guilted, corrected, and criticized by a myriad of s’piritual gurus who believe they know the written text better than you and use and abuse the texts for their own “lord it over” agendas.

    When I stepped foot in my last c’hurch system, one of the deaconesses said that I should read Beth Moore’s books and follow her via the internet. I did not buy any of her books, but listened to a few of her podcasts, with a few red flags as I tested her against the Scriptures. While I do not subscribe to jm telling her to “go home” as I consider this to be an abuse in and of itself, for I have sat under many a complementarian p’astor individual (cannot call them men, for real men do not abuse women in this way), I still cannot follow nor sit under her teachings, as well as JM’s teachings. Remember, I confessed in another comment thread, that I purchased a JM study bible with my own hard earned money (done with the work of me own hands), and now I will confess that I had to give it up because of the bias against women. jm did NOT interpret the Holy Scriptures correctly because of his background in complementarianism…….which Jesus never preached, taught, nor condoned as the basis for a healthy marriage.

    Lea, I am wedded to a bonafide complementarian, who cuts down women on a daily basis and yet, the local baptist c’hurch regards him as a l’eader. I fully know, hear, and experience the daily put-downs of women within the so called c’hurch/religious system as women were created to meet “men’s needs,”…….this is what I have been told verbatim. And throughout the years, I have worked my proverbial _ss off to try and prove that I am worthy of this comp’s love and acceptance. After over 30 years of marriage, to this day, I still have not “proved” myself in his eyes……..and yet, his b’aptist friends love and admire him so because “he” gives tens of thousand of dollars to their religious system………..I won’t go into the pictures that I took of myself after the strangling of my neck and punching me in the ribs, as proof of his wicked and
    evil complementarian ways. My LORD Jesus is the final Judge of his fate and I find peace, rest, and assurance in HIM alone that His justice will prevail.

    I have found it “odd” over the years (I grew up with good, loving parents who were the “church” in our home) that c’hurches elevate, promote, encourage, and provide myriads of books, cd’s, dvd’s, and other r’eligious artifacts of people they deem to be the “best of the best in regards to following c’hrist”, when in fact, the micro-second that we are born again, we are blessed with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Who is able to minister to us in our desperate hour of need, Who is able to teach and preach to us via the Holy Writ, and Who is able to comfort us when no one else, especially the c’hurch goers who love their places of honor, yet never pray nor help those who are the least of these (the abused) as we walk this earth.

    Many a woman has called my home, seeking love, acceptance, and a listening ear who will actually “believe” their stories, of so called h’usbands who are l’eaders within their c’hurch systems and in their communities. Their stories, their tears, and their overcoming due to their faith in Christ alone for salvation, is compelling and inspiring, which makes me long for Jesus’ Second Coming even more…….for He did not come to create a religious system filled with “l’eadership” nor “complementarianism,” He came to save that which was lost, us sinners, who fully know the humility, compassion, empathy, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    As I submit my soul under the care and lordship of Jesus Christ, (I remember fondly, the testimony of A. Amos Love and Salty here on this blog), I fully realize that Ephesians 6:10-18 bears witness to the spiritual warfare that each and everyone of us has to confront in this earthly life.

    And I know this gravel road that I walk with Jesus Christ, is not paved with tar, concrete, nor anything fancy and smooth (viperish), and “perfect.” It is a bumpy road, filled with pot holes, lots of dirt and dust uprooted from me semi-truck and tractor tires, and many a challenge of being a woman/follower and believer (sheep) of Jesus Christ (the ONE of the original text.)

    Growing up “in the church,” I never knew that I was supposed to follow the big celebrity preachers of the day and age in which we speak………..never once, was it said that in order to know Christ, you must follow “so and so.” To gain “spiritual insight” into our Holy Scriptures means that one must be under the teachings of say “who,” Billy Graham, Beth Moore, Marianne Williamson, Todd Bentley, Mike Bickle, Franklin Graham, Paula White, Max Lucado, the Pope/Priests/Cardinals, Kay Arthur, J.D. Hall, and the legions of “preacher people” who the average believer is “supposed to follow in order to be saved” …………is blatant hypocrisy at its finest.

    When one subscribes to the legitimate teachings of Jesus Christ (the One and Only) of the original texts, the first and foremost persecution, hatred, and disagreement will come from the institutional c’hurch goers, for they hate the liberty and freedom that we have found in Christ alone. The paradigm shift with regards to Christianity happened hundreds of years ago, when Jesus (the Son of God and the Son of Man), was crucified violently by the r’eligious folks of His day because they claimed to “know him” better than the lower laity/least of these “dogs” of yester-years.

    The times in which we live, Lea, has not changed one single bit and the “pride of this life” in which we live, bears no witness to the Testimony of Jesus, the Living Christ.

    Like

  77. Katy, I am so sorry. You deserve better. From the things you have said here and the way you have acted, I have much much LOVE and RESPECT for you. Please get yourself a better life. You are too cute to live in pain.

    I have believed since I was a teenager that many Christian men are Christians not because they believe in God or respect Jesus Christ. They are Christians because they want the protection and power Christianity gives them to use, enslave, and demean women and girls.

    I do not believe for a second Mark Driscoll cares one way or the other about Christianity’s truth. He is a very misogynistic perverted conman who did not want to work for a living and wanted a platform to trash talk his trapped wife.

    My comp father trash-talked women and girls my whole childhood. I could never understand why God hated me so much. I would have rather him not create me and me to have never been born. Because of comp I started wanting to die at age eleven and thought my mother was selfish and stupid for not aborting me.

    Comp is evil. Comp men believe they have found a way to have their female slaves without the judgment or prison time.

    Complementarian men are embarrassing. I am an expert on embarrassing men. I contended with the most embarrassing of men as a little girl. A man who fantasized about sexually torturing little girls. A man who wanted to rape virgin little girls. A pedophile. They are the most embarrassing out of all human beings. And comp men are in their sicko category.

    It is all about degrading, enslaving, and not having to hear the word no from a female. It is about men getting what they want from females and it never mattering what females want.

    These men have decided they should be owner of women and girls. They could not care less how much it hurts us. They have also decided that they will put the blame on their god so they don’t have to take the blame.

    My mother gave birth to me, but my father deserves to be despot/comp big shot? Sounds unbelievable and like it was dreamed up by a common unwanted incel.

    I have never told a comp man how his preferences caused me much toxic painful gross misery as a sexually abused little girl and him care at all. Comp men do not have it in them to care about women, little girls, or any raped little girl. Comp is all about men’s needs, fears, wants, insecurities, and feelings. Comp men have decided it is the job of all women and all little girls to hurt (even raped little girls) to make comp men feel special important and elevated.

    Real men, real fathers, and real husbands take hurt so women and children do not have to hurt. Comp men see to it that they do not take thirty seconds of pain for their families. No!
    In comp land, women and children take the worst and all the pain their wholes lives so comp men can feel good.

    I find comp men to be totally embarrassing. Just like I find child rapist to be totally embarrassing. I grew up with mostly comp men and I never respected any of them. They are so needy, so childish, so dumb about the real world, always peddling lies because the truth traumatizes them, and of course such self-serving infants. They are not good men or real men. That is why they are always begging everyone to believe in their 14-year-old boy manhoods.

    Comp men are the reason I stopped believing in god. Their god is no more respectable or believable than the creepy god child-marrying Muslim men peddle.

    Like

  78. KAS, “The mysticism here is not reading scripture, it is mindlessly using a word of phrase in order to enter an altered state of consciousness and to encounter ‘God’, to have a spiritual experience, or find the divine spark within. It is not quite but nearly prayer consisting of ‘vain repetitions’ like the ‘heathen’ that Jesus taught against.”

    Nothing I’ve read on Lectio Divina suggests that. For example, https://bustedhalo.com/ministry-resources/lectio-divina-beginners-guide

    Like

  79. KAS, “During the Middle Ages, the monastic traditions of both Western and Eastern Christianity moved beyond vocal prayer to Christian meditation. These progressions resulted in two distinct and different meditative practices: Lectio Divina in the West and hesychasm in the East. Hesychasm involves the repetition of the Jesus Prayer, but Lectio Divina uses different Scripture passages at different times and although a passage may be repeated a few times, Lectio Divina is not repetitive in nature.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_meditation

    “Hesychasm is a mystical tradition of contemplative prayer in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Based on Jesus’s injunction in the Gospel of Matthew that “when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray”,[1] hesychasm in tradition has been the process of retiring inward by ceasing to register the senses, in order to achieve an experiential knowledge of God” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm

    So, you are probably confusing the western and eastern practices, and… not surprisingly… accusing a sister of sin based on incomplete and erroneous knowledge.

    Like

  80. Katy, I am wrestling through these issues. I left a church which more and more claims that the work of the Holy Spirit is through the p’astor. I’ve definitely had experiences in that church where the pastors or other leaders were offended when I used scripture to question their arguments rather than accepting their ‘authority’. I’ve had experiences where I was victim blamed by a pastor who again claimed some sort of direct line. I hit the wall in the sense that I could no longer make myself walk into my old, authoritarian church, after trying to “suck it up” and attend for the sake of not dividing my family.

    My new pastor does believe that people are given words, but he says… ‘test the spirits’. He is not authoritarian in any sense. He was talking about accepting his current pastorship, and he talked about having a vision of being Joshua to the founding pastor’s Moses, and he said that two other people said the same thing. He didn’t do this to say, “I have a divine right to be the pastor here,” but to say that, in his experience, God has made these sorts of extra-Biblical insights abundantly clear and not just the word of one busybody/control freak, even if it is the pastor. And… I appreciate that especially when he is dealing with controversial issues, he makes sure to explain that this is HIS interpretation of scripture, and not necessarily the ultimate authority. It also changes the way he approaches the scripture – he spends more time explaining the context, his interpretation, and bringing in other passages to clarify, rather than “expository” verse-by-verse pushing his perspective.

    I’ve not experienced the busybody style of spiritual abuse, but I’ve experienced plenty of the kind where the pastor is assumed to have a direct line to the Holy Spirit.

    Like

  81. Katy – oh dear, you and me both!

    I’ve not really encountered men using the ‘God told me’ phrase to bolster some claim to authority, but I have certainly met with things like ‘the Lord gave me a picture’, and similar claims for things never referenced in the bible. Not infrequently to get attention. Wimber wanting you to cease using your mind in order to simply get the [Toronto] blessing. The absolute nonsense (no sense!) so much of the charismatic movement drifted into in the 20 years from about 1990. Drove me away from it.

    People falling over when prayed for, and calling it being ‘slain in the Spirit’, sounds biblical like walking or living ‘in the Spirit’, but isn’t in the NT – unless you include Ananias and Sapphira! The creation of an atmosphere in a meeting, of feelings of awed silence and mistaking this for the presence of God. This might on occasion be a genuine reaction to the presence of God, but in this case there is no need to work it up with ‘worship’.

    The mistaken notion that if someone has spiritual gifts, they must be mature as a believer. Doesn’t follow! Look at the Corinthians. Gifts are no substitute for a holy life.

    The claim that God is doing something ‘new’, or questionable claims to have discovered something the church has forgotten, maybe for centuries.

    Whatever happened to the gift of distinguishing of spirits? I do believe God can be experienced, and that people do have on occasion genuine spiritual experiences, but if the counterfeit were not possible, there would be no need for this gift. Satan can came as an angel of light, and can quote scripture.

    It is a gift that does need to be sought with regard to anything in reality mystical, seeing through bogus claims to have met with God using techniques not found in scripture. The NT is the primary source of discernment, but sometimes it needs the Spirit too, Word and Spirit together, to see something is false with a particular person who is standing in front of you.

    I might add, speaking from experience, that people who are in deception get very angry when it is revealed and uncovered.

    I don’t know a great deal about Beth Moore, but it’s clear from those who have studied her teachings and the counterfeit teachings doing the rounds in the current church scene that there is ample cause for concern with some of what she is into, without claiming she is not a believer. Mixture is more dangerous than outright error.

    On a personal note, I am sorry for what you have had to put up with from your hubby. He will, like the rest of us, one day have to give an account.

    Like

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s