child abuse, Modesty and Purity Teachings, Sexual Abuse/Assault and Churches

Christian Man Blames Teens in Skirts for His Lusting Eyes

If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell. Matthew 5:29-30

Photo by samer daboul on Pexels.com

My blogging friend, Sheila Gregoire posted these tweets, and I agreed with her so much that I took a screen shot and posted it on Spiritual Sounding Board’s Facebook page.

A lot of women chimed in in support of Sheila’s comment. And then there was this comment left by a man:

Thankfully, a reasonable man (who also happens to read/comment here), gave the man something important to think about:

Others also chimed in:

We have a long ways to go if we are unable to convince this Christian man that the onus is on him to control his lusts. And as someone mentioned above, he has daughters of his own – how is he able to not lust after his daughters? By controlling himself. The same control needs to be applied everywhere – not just because they are minors, but because Jesus said so.

Good grief, this makes me upset.

103 thoughts on “Christian Man Blames Teens in Skirts for His Lusting Eyes”

  1. I grew up with some Christian oriented modesty messages. At their core the messages really told me, that as a female, I was less than. I was one who grew tall and went through puberty fairly early, so I got some male attention from guys I had assumed at the time thought I was older. It really didn’t matter what I wore though it could have been sweatpants or my “modest” school uniform. I wore a skirt or a jumper for 12 years.

    The modesty messages that come out now where people are telling teens that they are causing adult males to stumble really make me shudder. There was a post on Shaunti Feldhahn where she warned young women in their short prom dresses they were causing problems for the men folk, including dads. That kind of stuff makes me so mad. My son want to prom this year, most of the girls wore floor length gowns. Why can’t these types of Christians just let the kids have fun at the dance instead of making it another shaming moment for young women.

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  2. And then there was this comment left by a man:

    This dude chimed in telling us all what makes him horny, assuming ‘short’ skirts as someone rightfully pointed out to him.

    I think a bit part of the screwed up sexual thing with these guys is that they think if they have a stray ‘that person is attractive’ thought it is the most terrible thing, when really they should just let it float by.

    And they never NEVER think about the impact this has on women and girls growing up, being told to manage the emotions and thoughts of strangers. It’s selfish. Tired of it.

    (Also if your church is so worried about what everybody is wearing just give them robes and be done with it, honestly)

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  3. Also have these men with these sexual thoughts ever thought for two seconds they could just keep it to themselves??? If I see a man who is unattractive I don’t mosey up to him and tell him all about it.

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  4. Thanks for posting this, Julie!

    I’ve got a few posts on my blog where I elaborated on this, too. The first is on how Don’t Be a Stumbling Block is a very bad modesty message (and is actually unbiblical as well).

    And then this week I talked about how Noticing is Not Lusting and how we should be able to expect a man to see a woman without lusting after her.

    This is just so very basic it makes me so sad that Christians don’t get it!

    Liked by 1 person

  5. One more thing–studies have repeatedly shown that men are less likely to lust if they see the woman as a whole person. The more we teach the “Billy Graham” rule and the “bouncing your eyes” rule, the more we ingrain in men the idea that women are dangerous because they are sexual. If we want to really make a difference, we should teach Christian men to see women as Jesus and Paul saw them–as co-labourers in Christ, as image bearers, as full, interesting people.

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  6. I recently saw James White on the DL complaining that leggings are intrinsically immodest clothing. Maybe sometimes, depends on when, who and where; but he came across to me as being a bit of a Victorian prude.

    He would be right though if he linked this with the foolish youth of Proverbs 7 who meets a woman ‘dressed as a prostitute’ (or ‘seductively dressed’). Why do prostitutes dress the way they do? In order to get men to look at them. That said, it’s the ‘sons’ of Proverbs 7 who have to ensure they don’t follow the women down into Sheol and death.

    There is also a reason why Jesus addressed men when talking about lust being adultery of the heart – the looking at a (married) woman. Young men are bound to notice young women – this is not of itself lust. A not unimportant distinction.

    I think there is an analogy here if I were to say women are more emotional, they should keep control of their emotions. I can say what I like to them, it’s their problem. Now I would say men should attempt to be sensitive towards women, to be chivalrous. Take this into account and make an effort. Similarly with lust, men should indeed seek to control this, but women can help by doing their part. Try to avoid being a stumbling block.

    Going back to poor old James White, if a woman were going to his church where he might be preaching, would it be unreasonable to restrict any ‘right’ to wear what they like, like leggings, and ensure he doesn’t get distracted by what they are wearing? Think of him. Even if it’s a bit of a hang-up.

    What’s suitable for the gym or bike may well not be suitable for church. And vice versa!!

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  7. 1) The argument that an underage female child is responsible for a grown man’s lust is preposterous. It is literally the victim-blaming argument of criminal pedophiles. I would say we have no choice but to assume that a man who makes such arguments is a pedophile in hiding.

    2) There is an alarming fallacy perpetuated within the far right, hardcore fundamentalist church community that all true masculine manly straight men are seething, uncontrollable dumpster fires of pure relentless lust, the corollary argument being that any man who is NOT an uncontrollable dumpster fire of pure relentless lust is either a) a weak effeminate pansy or b) gay. It’s a bully tactic used to try and coerce all men into lockstep with toxic masculinity. Yeah: no. KNOCK THAT S— THE F— OFF, YOU PSYCHOTIC PSYCHOPATHIC NUMBNUTS.

    Any “real” man is perfectly capable of self-control and conscientious courtesy. Anything less is a sign of weak-willed spineless cowardice.

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  8. There are some young ladies at the university here who use their physical assets to get grades (my daughter graduated a couple years ago and told me there were multiple coeds who would brag about the professors and grades they’d scored). They are completely uninterested in me, a prof who’s a middle-aged, graying mediocrity, but sometimes they are interested in what I have: indirect power over their scholarship or not getting kicked out for dropping under 2.0. So every couple years on average there’s been a young lady who has hinted she’d be willing to “do anything” for a passing grade (about 5 yrs ago one just came out and said it), and sometimes they’ve come to the office and made that clear. Once a young lady wore some very provocative clothing and leaned in such a way that I was more-or-less being flashed and I felt like turning and running.

    At no time, was there a feeling of lust. I felt embarrassed and sickened. Made eye contact only, made sure to get up and open the office door, even when they’d shut it after they walked in. Don’t feel that way ever around women, but in these cases where these women were desperately willing to stoop to get a grade, there was nothing sexy about it, nothing to make one lust unless I’d been looking for a reason to do it. And that’s the case with these guys blaming 14 yr old girls for wearing skirts. I’m no wonderful, virtuous guy, but you have to be itching to lust to go there, sitting in a church watching adolescent girls sing is thew last place where one should feel lust–unless they’re gung ho to lust.

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  9. Christian men keep wanting to make women responsible for their (the men’s) sexual sins.

    Gentlemen, your lust issues are not our (women’s) responsibility.

    I have enough problems of my own to deal with in my own life, let alone trying to help you solve YOUR lust problem.

    I get turned on by looking at a shirtless movie actor Hugh Jackman in his prime, but that’s my problem, not his.

    I’ve never once tweeted at Jackman to put a shirt on and keep it on. The Bible says if you are a Christian that the Bible endows you with something called “Self Control.” It’s up to you to practice self control not for women to dress to suit your standards.

    And, it’s subjective.
    I’ve had men hit on me while I was in baggy sweat pants, little make-up, thinking I looked like a bum. Men still wolf whistled me, asked for my number, etc.

    No matter how conservatively a woman dresses, some man some where will still consider her a Hot Tamale and tell her to “cover it up.”

    I love chocolate, too, but you know what, I don’t demand that everyone around me hide their chocolate or that stores stop advertising it.

    I practice self control and don’t pig out on chocolate. Same principle involved.

    (Link): Uproar at ‘Biblezine’ sex tips for kids

    From the article:

    Parents and teachers have called for an urgent overhaul of religious education in schools after year 6 children were given material claiming girls who wear revealing clothes are inviting sexual assault, and homosexuality, masturbation and sex before marriage are sinful.

    …The magazines, Refuel 2 and Revolve 2 – which intersperse the text of the New Testament with dating advice, beauty tips and music reviews – warn girls not to go bra-less because “your nipples are much more noticeable and a distraction and temptation for men”, and not to wear tube tops and low-rise jeans because men are “sexually stimulated by what they see”.

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  10. How come the “worldly,” non-Christian people don’t seem to have the same lust problems as the Christian men? On reality shows, such as “Keeping Up with the Kardashians,” you can see Kourtney’s boyfriend, Scott; Kylie’s boyfriend, Travis; Kris Jenner’s beau, and all the scantily-clad sisters/daughters and friends all hanging out together (sometimes on vacation on yachts or on the beach in skimpy bathing suits), and nobody is freaked out by anyone’s clothes or making passes at anyone.

    Recently, Kourtney has gone dancing with her much-younger boyfriend, together with younger sister Kendall (showing body) without fearing his wandering eyes. Justin Bieber, a Christian, who is married to Hailey Baldwin, also is seen with his wife’s friend, Kendall, without checking her out. Come on, everybody’s just friends. Khloe, in particular, will totally joke with all the guys, and nobody is bothered by it.

    As a teenager, my friend’s mom and stepdad would take us to the beach, and I never felt bad in the stepdad’s presence with my bathing suit on. We were all just having a good time. Nobody was really looking at anybody.

    Also, at the community pool with my friends, I never felt scrutinized by any of the boys we were hanging out with.

    If you ask my brother, for example, if he were tempted by the women on stage at church, he would have barely noticed they were even there, much less what they were wearing.

    What about jealous women? If a woman looks enviously upon my well-endowed, toned female body, do I have to cover-up to keep her from sinning? Believe me, in the world, jealous women have been more of a problem than lustful men.

    I’m single, and I notice “hot” dudes all the time; doesn’t mean I want to jump in the sack with them. My married friends will also make comments about “hunky” celebrities, in addition to those they don’t find attractive, so what? It’s not lust.

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  11. LOL @ Carmen
    This subject makes me angry. A lot of subjects involving evangelical fundamentalists make me angry.

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  12. I was 11yo, a x-tian at a family party when a friend of my dad’s followed me upstairs to the toilet and pounced on me as I came out and tried to kiss my lips. I managed to escape and fled downstairs and stuck by my mother’s side for the rest of the party. I was so naive, I was so self-conscious, I’d just started wearing my first bra and my mother bought my clothes and I thought the top I was wearing was a bit too tight. It wasn’t, I was just aware of my new boobs. It could only be my fault, I had tempted an upright citizen, a teacher. I knew about Jezebel and basically had a miserable adolescence, not daring to enjoy clothes-shopping with my peers and hating my body. It took many years – and, I guess the coming of the internet – to show me the reality of what happened on that day!

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  13. I hear ya! I feel the same way!! I wish those sorts of things made everyone angry. .. perhaps something would happen.

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  14. The problem is that the logical conclusion of Toby’s argument doesn’t work:

    I grew to hate it. Every school day, for years, as the two of us walked toward Neelo’s school, men would stare at her, sizing up her body behind the dark clothes, whispering to each other, making signs with their hands, making catcalls, taunting her, and saying things like how pretty she was—even though the only thing you could see on my sister’s body were her eyes.

    The men who passed us on sidewalks would say demeaning things—things sexual in nature that I was too young to understand. My mom and dad wanted me to walk her to school because if I wasn’t with her, who knew what these men would do? I grew up hearing stories about women being groped, punched, even abducted—all while wearing hijabs. The perpetrators were from all ethnic groups and were both Pakistanis and, like us, refugees. (From Women’s Media Center)

    So, even trying to completely hide and obscure the female form does not prevent lust, and that’s because lust isn’t about what men see. It’s about what is in their minds. If Toby can’t see a woman as anything other than a sex object, that is his problem that he needs to bring to Jesus to overcome.

    I’ve been listening to some Christian counseling resources, and Toby’s argument sounds very narcissistic (I believe much of Evangelicalism has narcissistic tendencies). What I mean is that the core of his argument is him. He wants the world to change so that he isn’t so ‘tempted’, but if the world changes, he will probably be just as tempted as before.

    As Rachael Denhollander said, if we just change the topic for comparison, we see how ridiculous these arguments are. So, Toby says, “They shouldn’t make Ferraris. Ever time I see a Ferrari thoughts of lust fill my mind. If they can’t stop making those cars, they should at least be forced to wear camouflage tape or something so I’m not forced to see those sexy lines! Anyone who drives around in a Ferrari is just asking for their car to be stolen!”

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  15. I’m so glad you found the truth, Matilda! How horrible it must have been to live so many years in the lie that you caused the sexual assault. I’m so sorry!

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  16. Christianity and Islam tell their men and boys that everything that goes wrong is women and children’s fault. In these cultures, women and children are to suffer to make these men feel more comfortable.

    My church going family is so much more perverted and sexually abusive than my family who hates church.

    Why do so many toddlers get raped?

    I knew a pedo who got turned on by a baby girl sitting in a sandbox in corduroy overalls, a long sleeve shirt with hearts on the collar, and snot pouring out of both sides of her nose.

    In my experience with most Christian men and all Muslim men, they are both childish entitled babies that even go so far as blaming little children for the bad things they do.

    The truth is, most of the Christian men I have always known lusted after underage girls.
    The boys and men in my family that did not go to church wanted grown women.

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  17. I can’t argue with what you’ve personally experienced, CH, but I can say that among most Christians I’ve known, lusting after underage girls is not “a thing”. There are certain places and certain denominations that are magnets for creeps (and the creeps always seems to figure out which places will give them a pass), places like Bill Gothard’s cult and Sovereign Grace, and a lot of the little crackpot fundamentalist cults. The state of evangelicalism has driven me from the church (though not from Jesus), so I can commiserate with you on some level. But I’ve also been in Christian places where they hate injustice and I’ve known Christians who were kind and decent and didn’t protect the abusers and shun the victims. And of course Jesus advocated that those who lead the “little ones” astray would be better off thrown in the sea with heavy rocks round their necks–He obviously didn’t take kindly to abuse, either. I think some of the developments in recent years are a sign He’s at work cleaning house.

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  18. I can say that among most Christians I’ve known, lusting after underage girls is not “a thing”.

    TD, were you ever a teenage girl? Because i suspect you’ve missed quite a lot here. It’s bad enough that it comes up in mainstream churches, schools, it’s all over the place. The entirety of purity culture, which is widespread, tells girls to watch themselves to stop men from lusting. The entirety of culture tells girls and women to watch themselves to try to keep men fromlusting or attacking. This is not a tiny problem.

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  19. “As a healthy secure adult male…”

    How did I miss that? He served himself up for mockery and I missed it. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂

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  20. “Seeing such a site. . .” Did Toby intend to say SIGHT, instead. Hmm. In statement analysis, there is a phenomenon called leakage, wherein unconscious feelings seep through one’s speech.

    It makes you wonder why Toby refers to a teenage girl in a skirt on a church platform as a “site.” Is there a correlation between this experience and, perhaps, Toby’s viewing a certain internet web “site”?

    “By thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned” (Matthew 12:37 KJV). Jesus of Nazareth

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  21. “TD, were you ever a teenage girl?”
    ……………………………………………………………………………………..

    Hi Lea, I am not a teenage girl and have never been one, but I’ve had two teenage girls and a third who is about to become a teenager. I am married to a woman who was, of course, once a teenage girl. Am not saying or implying the sexualization of young girls is a “tiny problem”. Never said that and don’t think it. My wife, mother and sister were all molested as children–it has been a horrific problem and our entire family has experienced the effects of it. I do care about it and am not trying to minimize this. Am just saying that it’s not an accepted part of Christian life and certainly not something that can be justified by reference to anything Christ said or did. Anyone who hurts a child or supports such a person is acting in direct opposition to what Jesus said and is quite likely, based on the fruits of their behavior, a screaming hypocrite and one whom I do not tend to believe when they claim to be “Christian.” What they are doing is anti-Christian as Christ defined it.

    I did not presume to know whether CH has not experienced a life where “most Christian men…are childish entitled babies” who blame “little children for the bad things they do” and “lust after underage girls.” I take what she says at face value and assume that is the type of horrible pseudo-Christian environment she has experienced. I don’t doubt her. But just wanted to tell her that most Christian men are not that way. In fact, most men are not pedophiles, that such behavior, while regrettably not rare (approximately 25% of children have been or will be molested, according to the figures I’ve read), that it is a very small number of men doing these things. Most men, Christian, Muslim, Jewish or atheist, are not molesters. Again, not saying it’s not a horrible problem, just saying any environment where most men lust after young girls is not normal and can’t be extrapolated to all of Christendom (not that CH was trying to do that, BTW).

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  22. https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2014/05/12/christian-homeschool-dads-lust-after-17-year-old-girl-get-her-kicked-out-of-prom/
    ………………………………………………………………………………………..

    I remember this story, and it’s sick. It’s sick like what my now-adult daughter experienced several years ago when she attended a small fundamentalist church after she was invited by a friend (who is not longer a friend). The “sweet” church ladies kept trying to cover her with an overcoat even though, at her friend’s suggestion, she had dressed modestly. Her dress went down to near her ankles. It seems that her offense was leaving part of her arms bare. Here is a young girl, not yet ready for sex, who is causing an uproar in this little church because of bare arms! That’s just the type of environment that is both a sign of and a breeding ground for the type of sickos who prey on children and rally simple-minded fools around them to shout down anyone who tries to expose it.

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  23. But just wanted to tell her that most Christian men are not that way.

    TD, this is not at all helpful to solving the real and prevalent problem. You are not listening here. Stop being defensive and listen to what women are telling you.

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  24. Let’s be careful to respect the experiences of others. It’s okay for both CH and TD to have different experiences and observations regarding male pedophiles.

    I have to say that I also agree with TD that most men are not pedophiles. If that was the case, we’d see the numbers. We simply don’t, thankfully. But having even one child hurt by a pedophile is a problem, and we need to do what we can to keep it exposed.

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  25. David said: “How did I miss that? He served himself up for mockery and I missed it. 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂”

    Yes, you sure did miss it, David, and so did I. Bummer! lol

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  26. Lea –

    While there are no absolute numbers available (and one would not expect there to be), the best available numbers put pedophiles at between 1% and 5% of the male population, with 5% generally considered to be the absolute highest possible estimate, and likely a vast overestimate. What we have are a very small percentage of men, probably close to 1 out of 100, hurting a lot of little girls, estimates are as high as 25 out of 100 girls. It’s a catastrophically high number. These repeat offenders do enormous destruction.

    Again, it is a destruction that my family has felt very directly. I have two sisters who turned to witchcraft and died quite young from the health effects of extreme obesity and other self-destructive addictive behaviors that very likely resulted from the psychological effects of being molested repeatedly at a young age. Not only did it affect them, it affected others around them, including their children, their parents, my children, me–everyone who loved them. It is not fun losing someone at a young age whom you grew up with and loved. My mother is still alive but to this day deals with claustrophobia and other psychological issues that I just know are related to what she went through with an abusive father. My wife was molested multiple times by a step brother. In some ways, she had to harden herself to grow up and get through life. Any sort of sentimentality is gone in her, it’s dead. She has a terrible body self-image, she struggles every day. Some things in her died 40+ years ago. She’s tough as a nail and a giving person, but not everything good in her survived childhood because of abuse. She deals with that, I deal with it. It is what it is.

    So if you want to tell me I’m not being helpful or act like I’m just not getting it, I have to cry foul. I feel the pain of it every day, even though my pain was indirect. I will never get my sisters back, I’m pretty sure I won’t spend eternity with them. That is a festering wound that never stops hurting. Maybe you might consider that there are other people out there, some of them men, who feel that pain also. The pain an abuser creates for his (or her, more rarely) victims radiates outward through the generations. Sons and husbands who have never abused themselves feel it also. I told the truth, Lea, nothing I said was a lie, and I believe the truth is always helpful, unless it’s the Nazis asking you where you hid the Jews or your spouse asking you if they “look great in this”. Outside of those rare situations, the truth is always helpful, and that’s what I told.

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  27. Quick everyone, what does this remind you of?

    The Shocking ‘Slave Bible’: Here Are the Parts That Were Deleted to Manipulate Slaves

    — start excerpt —
    For centuries, the Bible has been used to spread a message of freedom in Christ.

    But at some point, it was used for much darker purpose.

    In Washington DC’s Museum of the Bible, a copy of the so-called “Slave Bible” sits on display.

    This Bible, used by slave masters in the early 1800s, is quite different than the one used in pews today.

    …Bibles like this, along with catechisms, were used to push a specific message to enslaved people.

    “It starts off with the creation story…then it jumps to Joseph getting sold into slavery by his brothers and how that ends up being a good thing for him,” Schmidt told CBN News.

    “We skip over the Israelites in slavery in Egypt being let out,” said Schmidt.

    Other references to freedom were also omitted.

    “They’re highlighting themes of being submissive, the same thing goes on with the New Testament as well,” he said.

    “The whole book of Revelation is left out, so there is no new Kingdom, no new world, nothing to look forward to,” Schmidt explained.

    …Most slaves were illiterate or prohibited from reading, so what would be the point of such a Bible?

    “The abolitionist movement was beginning to make waves on both sides of the Atlantic “said Schmidt.

    One way slave owners could combat pressure from abolitionists was to tell them they were good Christians that taught their slaves about God.

    Despite the heavy redactions, the Gospel message would not be contained.
    — end excerpt–

    Here’s a hint of what this should remind you of:

    _3 Examples of Gender Politics in the New ESV Translation_

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  28. Regarding the conversation among TRUTH DETECTOR, Christianity Hurts, and Lea.

    Rather than look at numbers (percentage of Christian men who molest or sexually assault), I think it’s important to look at how the theology under-girds such behavior in the first place, and how sexist theology (complementarianism) and authortarianism contribute to the enabling of such behavior.

    If a man molests a girl at a church, or a man is abusing his wife at home, frequently, when the pastor finds out (because the victim tells him of it), the response is to victim-blame and to excuse and protect and “minister to” the abuser.

    The victim is told she must have “asked for it” because she was not dressed modestly, she may be told to pray for her attacker, etc.

    Those are not the correct or compassionate responses.

    (continued in part two)…

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  29. Part 2,
    Re: Lea / Truth Detector

    As far as perecentage goes, I will say two things.

    First, I remember that lady who used to post to the other site posted a graphic from time to time from some group that keeps track of lawsuits of churches.

    For many years, (until like last year), the number one reason churches were sued was due to mishandling of child sex abuse cases.

    Secondly, if you google for information about Anna Salter, I believe her name is, (she’s an expert on perverts and has written books about them, and she has interviewed them first hand), she has said that many perverts have told her that they intentionally target churches because…

    The child molesters told Salter that most Christians are naive, idiotic simpletons who have wacked-up theology, which allows them to more easily target kids and to get away with the perversion, even when they are caught.

    Convicted kid molesters told Salter that churches were among their most favorite hunting grounds for their prey. (You can google her name and find this information online.)

    According to these perverts, Christians are too trusting and will allow an adult man to spend a lot of time around the little kids at the church, for instance.

    If the man does get caught molesting a child, the church will never- the- less “love on him” and forgive him (rather than call the police on him and report him, which is what they SHOULD do), all due to botched theology and distortions of God’s grace and love

    (it’s not graceful or loving to let a child molester off the hook, church people.)

    I would suspect the same thing is true for abusive and controlling men who like to abuse adult women.
    They must love, love, love churches that teach Male Headship under Complementarianism and that tell women that divorce is ALWAYS wrong or sinful, even if they are being abused.

    Even if one wishes to argue that only one out of 100 Christian men are abusers and child molesting perverts, it’s a sad fact that leaves about 98 Christians who will will excuse and defend the pervert and/or blame the pervert’s victim, rather than do what they should: help the victim and report the assault(s) to the police.

    That math leaves another one percent, and the one percent consists of bloggers such as Julie Anne and Dee, who regularly expose this stuff.

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  30. _TOP 5 REASONS FOR CHURCH LITIGATION_

    —- start quotes from web page —
    …For the past 22 years, Hammar has reviewed state and federal court cases involving churches. Using the completed data for 2015, he has pinpointed the top five reasons for church litigation.

    …ALLEGATIONS OF CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE. THIS ISSUE HAS BEEN THE NUMBER ONE REASON FOR CHURCH LITIGATION FOR 21 OF THE PAST 22 YEARS.
    — end quote —

    Child molesting perverts like to go where their prey is, so churches, Boy Scouts, schools – any where that has kids, they will gravitate to it.

    I would not be surprised if rates / percentages of child molesters are higher among churches (and Boy Scouts, etc), than in other areas…
    like people who work as butchers, or landscapers, or other occupations or areas that don’t typically involve a lot of children, or whomever their preferred victim group is.

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  31. ^Oh, that came out awkwardly above – I was trying to say occupations such as butchers, landscapers, etc, would probably have lower rates of child molesters among them, since they’re not jobs that usually involved kids.

    Regarding this point I made above, I wanted to add an additional thought:

    — start quote —
    Even if one wishes to argue that only one out of 100 Christian men are abusers and child molesting perverts, it’s a sad fact that leaves about 98 Christians who will will excuse and defend the pervert and/or blame the pervert’s victim, rather than do what they should: help the victim and report the assault(s) to the police.
    — end —

    -Even if I grant the premise that there is only a tiny, itty bitty number of perverts in churches,
    I’ve read I don’t know how many articles and studies over the years that ONE pervert can wreak havoc:

    One molester has dozens upon dozens of victims before he is finally caught and tried in court and goes to jail.

    That is usually how that goes.

    Couple that scenario with the irresponsible handling of child sex abuse by church people, and it is one messed up problem.

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  32. Truth Detector said to Lea,

    So if you want to tell me I’m not being helpful or act like I’m just not getting it, I have to cry foul. I feel the pain of it every day, even though my pain was indirect.
    — end quote –

    This is the equivalent of “Not all men!”
    (Why Men Should Stop Saying #NotAllMen. Immediately._)

    Any time women are chatting about injustices against us by men, on a personal level, or against women as a group, a man usually feels the need to jump in and reassure us that while OTHER men may be pigs, HE is not.

    I’ve also (annoyingly) seen women do this to women:
    “How can you criticize men, Mary? My FATHER is a LOVING man who deeply respects women, HE would never rape a woman!”
    – and it’s not any more acceptable when a woman does this, either.

    When you’re directly talking to a woman who has been hurt deeply by Christian men, as poster CH has, I think it’s more healing and helpful for her if you validate her emotions and experience, rather than lecture her (even lovingly) that “not all Christian men are like that.”

    One of the most painful things to ever happen to me was my mother dying. In the first years of grief,
    it was not helpful to me when I went to other Christians seeking solace and empathy over the grief, only to be lectured, rebuffed, given platitudes, told I’d see my mother again in the afterlife,
    told to “just read your Bible more and trust in the Lord,” etc.

    None of that stuff suffices.

    The men who hurt CH claimed to be Christians. Allow her to feel and experience her anger at those me without trying to defend them, Christianity, or Christian men.

    I think some times or places may not be appropriate ones in which to try to tell someone that their pain and anger is wrong, and by golly, they should really trust most Christian men and etc.

    I think this is applicable:

    _Regarding Grief, Sickness and Depression: Hold Your Tongue and Offer Your Heart Instead by Heather Plett_

    Like

  33. Daisy,

    While I sincerely doubt that 98 out of 100 Christians would defend the pervert and attack the victim, I know that whatever percentage it is, it’s too high if it’s more than 0%. Of course, this is a personal thing for me, have skin in the game, so to speak. Have seen the devastation that occurs when little girls are hurt and abusers are protected–again, whole families are hurt and the pain and destruction goes forward for generations and it affects men and women.

    All of you must realize that not everyone cheering on the Me Too movement is a woman, millions of us are men. It has been an absolute joy to see justice served, to see people like Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Kevin Spacey, Tom Chantry, Nate Morales and others brought to justice so they can’t hurt others. But it’s been frustrating to see so many other religious abusers continue to skate by and leave people feeling like broken glass inside in their wake. My blood absolutely boils at the SBC throwing churches out at the least sign of them listening to God’s wisdom or prophecy spoken through a woman–while pretending they have no power to raise a finger to call out a pastor who tyrannizes a congregation or protects molesters. They’ll one day face the Lord.

    I just wanted CH to know that what she has experienced is not a reflection of Jesus, and that there are others of us who have also been hurt and driven from the institutional church by the abuse. I also want her to know that lusting after underage girls is neither normal nor normative. It’s sickening, evil behavior and a relatively small number of people have caused a huge amount of pain. It’s tragic that so many sick people have targeted churches and that so many church people have this idiotic notion of forgiveness that leaves out repentance and that puts children in danger. Again, it’s part of the reason why I haven’t been part of the institutional church for years.

    TD

    Liked by 1 person

  34. And I definitely do NOT think that CH should trust most Christian men or anyone, man or woman. In fact, the Bible says that a person is cursed if they trust in men. I also don’t think CH’s pain and anger is wrong any more than I think that my own pain and anger caused by the same issues is wrong. I never said that. I never meant it. Honestly.

    Like

  35. Truth Dectetor,
    you’re still coming across as being too defensive.

    You seem far more concerned with defending men/ the church / the faith than in simply validating CH’s pain and anger -which she has every right to feel.

    Perhaps in her personal experience, 99% of the men she has known personally who say they are Christian were sexually abusive scum buckets.

    Like

  36. Re:
    (comment by Truth Detector),

    I just wanted CH to know that what she has experienced is not a reflection of Jesus, and that there are others of us who have also been hurt and driven from the institutional church by the abuse.
    –end quote-

    Well, I’m in a somewhat similar position as CH, though our experiences are not identical.

    I’ve been driven away from the faith myself, though not over sexual abuse (I was not sexually abused by Christian men as she was), but due to other factors.

    I have not been able to successfully articulate to people who are still “on fire and sold out to Jesus” that telling someone in CH’s (or my position) that we should still continue to believe in a God or trust in Jesus in spite of how so many Christians let us down /or abused us is not useful or sensitive.

    I kind of get where Christians are coming from on this score, because y’all freak out if you think someone is rejecting Christ and will go to Hell when they die…. but… I’m more interested in this point in how Christians respond to my (and other people’s) current (earthly) concerns and needs.

    Some other Christian guy who posts to this blog, KAS, has only expressed concerned that I may reject Christ and go to Hell when I die, but I told him, I have a super hard time believing he gives a crap about my eternal soul when he refuses to acknowledge how badly Christian Gender Complementarianism has hurt me (among other things).

    If you can’t just put aside the “but not all Christian men!” and “But Jesus is awesome, just ignore all the people who claim his name that hurt you” arguments to just sit in empathy with another person, you’re sort of denying or diminishing the person’s pain (in this case, Christianity Hurt’s)

    I’ve been at a point in my own faith journey the last few years where who Jesus of Nazareth is doesn’t matter so much to me any longer.

    Even if Jesus is a wonderful person and a deity figure who died for my sins on the cross, etc and so on, it makes no sense to follow a faith where so many of his adherents are jerks, or who cover up child sex abuse cases, etc.

    CH has said in the past on other threads at this blog (she has been posting her for like over a year), that she does like some of the Christian men who are regular posters on this blog – I think she appreciates Mark, for example.

    CH already knows that “not all Christian men” are evil horrible child molesting perverts or that not all Christian men make excuses for them.

    But many of them have been, in her experience and in her observation – and blogs like this one and Dee’s blog regularly cover stories of people churches have hurt. So it sure looks very common and not an exception.

    –continued in part two….

    Like

  37. part two.

    And continuing on in this topic:

    Oh, one of THE WORST, most insensitive Christian comments I have seen on this blog was several months ago.

    There was a guest post by an Ex- Christian who is now an atheist.
    One reason he mentioned for rejecting the Christian faith in his post was seeing how so many Christians are hypocritical and dishonest. That played a role in why he became an atheist.

    In the comments section under Atheist Guy’s post, a Christian lady scolded him over that and said something like,
    “You put your faith in man, not in Jesus, you big dolt, something which I would never do, so I would never lose the faith! You should put your trust in Jesus, not in people, which is what you did!”

    I don’t recall her exact wording, but it was something along those lines…

    She came off as quite haughty, judgmental, and dismissive about why that guy left the faith – which is not going to win him back.

    And I understood what the guy meant, as I’ve been in kind of a similar situation myself in the last few years, so it was a turn off to me to see someone who is still 100% Christian reply in that way.

    Like

  38. HI there
    New to this blog….I keep seeing the 2 letters CH in the comments section, can anyone explain to me what they mean or “who” they refer to?
    Thanks in advance

    Like

  39. Daisy,

    Just go back and read what I said. I said I don’t doubt her experience. Here’s the exact quote: “I take what she says at face value and assume that is the type of horrible pseudo-Christian environment she has experienced. I don’t doubt her.” I don’t know how you can take that as anything other than validating her experience.

    I quoted statistics that a very small percentage of men are molesters. That is a fact. It is not up for debate. That does not make men trustworthy, again, I said the Bible says we’re not supposed to trust men (or women).

    And of course I’m going to defend Christianity, because Jesus stood against this stuff and I do also. Because I know that the sick, destructive men in her life were not representative of a Christ Who advocated throwing them off a boat with a millstone round their necks. I will absolutely, positively defend Christianity, because to do otherwise would be a lie.

    I have seen the effects of fake Christianity, of abusive Christianity and the way it hurts people and I’ve experienced it directly and indirectly. Which brings me to this: Why are you not validating my experience? Does my pain at watching my sister die literally in my arms three months ago not resonate? The sister who basically committed a slow suicide with addictions that none of us could stop because she was molested when she was young? I tried to resuscitate her and watched her turn purple in front of her own daughter and die. Not enough pain from this for you? How about the other sister who died the year before? You know what? I’m just done with you, you’re the defensive one, you’re the one trying to shove an agenda down my throat and not paying one da—ed bit of attention to the pain of people who don’t fit it. Well forget it, I’m done for good. Goodbye.

    TD

    Like

  40. Daisy said: “Perhaps in her personal experience, 99% of the men she has known personally who say they are Christian were sexually abusive scum buckets.”

    I am hoping that you posted this before I chimed in and addressed both Lea and TD. I’m thinking that is probably the case.

    Like

  41. Daisy, I did not see him deny CH’s pain. Please go back and read it again. I think if someone said all Christian women are pedophiles, you might take issue. Please let people share their opinions. TD may not have empathized the same way you or I would, but I saw it.

    Like

  42. TD, the pain you described in your family sounds so deep. I’m so sorry. I believe you have experienced real pain. And I have always seen you be a champion for women.

    I hope you don’t leave, but I can sense the frustration in your last comment. You give great insight from personal experiences and your presence is valuable to this community.

    Like

  43. Interjecting with a “not all Christians” type of argument is not helpful or constructive to people such as CH or myself, who have either left the faith or are considering it. A more empathetic response would simply to acknowledge her ordeal and say “I am sorry for what happened to you.”
    Not inform her that “not all Christian men are like that.”

    Like

  44. Thanks for the info Julie 😊
    Glad to frequent this blog. …I too have been a victim of spiritual abuse from the church but in a different kind of way
    I got captivated and brainwashed into complimentarinism and it almost destroyed my relationship that I have with this awesome woman I know
    Long story short, she was far more forgiving than I deserve and we were able to salvage our relationship before I nearly destroyed it with my stupid beliefs that I held
    Complimentarinism is pure evil in my opinion now

    Liked by 1 person

  45. the best available numbers put pedophiles at between 1% and 5% of the male population

    TD, I don’t have time to address everything (although I see lots of people have commented above) but I want to say this. We are not talking about ‘pedophiles’ solely here. Sheila’s girls were teenagers. Teenagers are treated like extra sexy adult women who need to cover up to stop men from lusting, and THAT is a huge problem. Adult men who are not ‘pedophiles’ tell girls this stuff. 20 something youth pastors are taking advantage of high school girls. People telling girls to wear shirts at the church pool party. That stuff.

    If you weren’t trying to defend ‘christian dudes’ in general, maybe you would have heard this.

    CH has had terrible experiences and she is entitled to be upset about it. You do her no good by trying to tell her ‘good ones are out there’. She knows that. But you don’t know what the average girl goes through, and is told.

    Child molestation is a terrible thing, but this problem is so much bigger. I never had anything like that happen to me but first time I remember being catcalled by a bunch of adult men I was 13. Most women have a lifetime of experiences like this and your ‘not all men’ing does nothing to change it.

    Like

  46. And now that I’ve read through the responses, I do want to say I didn’t know about your sister and I am very sorry for your loss.

    Like

  47. TD/CH – In my former abusive church, we were watching a video series on marriage. The speaker was making the point that our “self-idolatry” in marriage leads us to be angry. I complained that tying anger with idolatry leads to victim blaming and that there are appropriate times for anger. Whether or not 100% of the people in the class disagreed with me, they remained silent while the church leaders tried to compel me to believe that all anger was sinful.

    It’s not helpful to me to say, not all churches in our denomination are like that. I’ve heard it over and over, and I know at least in a few instances that they are either lying or ignorant because I’ve seen their churches do that same thing.

    Even then, regardless of the percentages, the point is, when I was spiritually abused. NO ONE STOOD UP FOR ME.

    Liked by 1 person

  48. I’m sorry for blowing up like that. I feel crappy about it and don’t want to put that on any of you. Our family’s pain is ours and it’s not right for me to shove THAT down YOUR throats. That was wrong, I was being a jerk there. There are very few dots to connect between my little sis being molested and her dying 11 weeks ago in front of us from the addictions she developed to deal with her agony. Never did CPR before, never saw anyone die in my arms, had no idea. Not like movies. Not a good scene, especially with my niece falling to pieces while she watched it. My sis was one of the funniest people ever, she could’ve been a comic. She had a genius-level IQ. And it all was for naught because she got killed by a molester every bit as much as if he’d killed her on the spot. These monsters keep killing decades later. Men and women feel the pain of it.

    Just shouldn’t be so much friendly fire among those of us who agree and stand against these abusers–we have evil enemies, we don’t need to make them of each other. And I fired a lot of shots. Sorry, I was wrong and sorry to CH for being insensitive. I was wrong. God bless all of you.

    Liked by 1 person

  49. Regarding underage girls and modesty. It seems like men and women in some circles are being told that young women who aren’t “modest” can cause not only their same age male peers to stumble, but their dads as well.

    As I mentioned in another comments, Shaunti Feldhahn blogs about the responsibility of teenage girls not to make men stumble by wearing too short of a dress to the school dance. She isn’t just talking about teenage boys, but grown men as well.

    Dannah Gresh, a Christian modesty writer, has a program that teaches girls ages 8-12, that their “bellies are intoxicating” to men, and only their future husband should see their belly. So bizarre. She also writes that a girl should consider what she might look like in a skirt or shorts when she is sitting a certain way, then to imagine what their grandfather might see.

    Modesty is a subject of public discussion in some religious environments. I can see how these sorts of teachings would be harmful to girls and boys.

    Like

  50. I kind of get where Christians are coming from on this score, because y’all freak out if you think someone is rejecting Christ and will go to Hell when they die….

    Daisy, I’m not sure that was Truth Detector’s motivation for responding to Christianity Hurts. It may have been a simple desire to prevent an absolutist broadbrushing of the Christian faith, and of Christian men, rather than some effort to “save her soul”.

    Honestly, reading CH’s posts can be a bit painful for me. I sometimes wonder whether she’d think of me as a dangerous monster and abuser, simply because I believe in Christ. I don’t want her to think that, or to see Jesus as any kind of monster either. So at times, I’ve wanted to speak up and respond to CH much as Truth Detector did, though I never have. I don’t know whether his motivations were similar to mine in this case, but I don’t think there’s any “missionary” aspect to his posts.

    That being said…

    And of course I’m going to defend Christianity, because Jesus stood against this stuff and I do also.

    While I can understand your desire to defend Jesus, TD, I think there are better approaches to take than “not all Christians”. Although part of me wants to say that, I also feel the need to remind myself that my hurt feelings at CH’s words — both for myself and on the part of my Lord — aren’t much compared with her pain. If we want to defend our faith in Jesus, we might do better by showing what He’s really like. To do so by listening, and by weeping with those who weep.

    My deepest sympathies to you in your terrible loss. The pain and grief must still be raw for you. Please take care of yourself.

    Liked by 1 person

  51. I also feel the need to remind myself that my hurt feelings at CH’s words — both for myself and on the part of my Lord — aren’t much compared with her pain.

    SKIJ, I saw a thing somewhere called the circle of grief/ring theory and i think that’s kind of what we’re getting at here. It’s applied to tragedies and trauma, but the basic idea is ‘comfort in, dump out’. So the people most affected need the most support and you, as a lesser affected person, need to get your even further outside and so on and so forth. It’s kind of a useful framework to me.

    So the way I see it here is that if someone shares about something that hurt them, minimizing it, defending oneself, etc, is dumping in rather than out?

    Link:
    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/promoting-hope-preventing-suicide/201705/ring-theory-helps-us-bring-comfort-in

    Like

  52. SKIJ said,
    Daisy, I’m not sure that was Truth Detector’s motivation for responding to Christianity Hurts. It may have been a simple desire to prevent an absolutist broadbrushing of the Christian faith, and of Christian men, rather than some effort to “save her soul”.
    — end quote—

    There is definitely an element with some Christians in this, though.

    I think it’s actually kind of insensitive to the de-converted person (or the person thinking of rejecting the faith) to be far more concerned about defending your faith’s reputation (or God’s rep) than in simply sitting with that person in their hurt and pain.

    And going apologetic only further pushes the person away from the faith.

    SKIJ said,
    Honestly, reading CH’s posts can be a bit painful for me. I sometimes wonder whether she’d think of me as a dangerous monster and abuser, simply because I believe in Christ.
    I don’t want her to think that, or to see Jesus as any kind of monster either. So at times, I’ve wanted to speak up and respond to CH much as Truth Detector did, though I never have.
    I don’t know whether his motivations were similar to mine in this case, but I don’t think there’s any “missionary” aspect to his posts.
    — end quote —

    CH has said on previous threads the only Christian men she has any respect for are a small number of regular male posters to this blog who show sensitivity towards her or to women in general, who condemn the Christian men who are sexist and/or abusive..

    I’ve seen her say that once or twice in months past, on other threads. She already knows.

    I think it’s far more empathetic and healing for someone like her to just have those around her console her in her anger and pain, than to jump to defending all men, or in defending Jesus, or the Bible, or all Christians, etc.

    If you jump on the defense with the person, that can feel to the person you’re doing it to as though you are ignoring or down-playing their pain at the hands of whatever church or Christian hurt them. As though you are defending your faith at the expense of their hurt / anger.

    Like

  53. @Lea:

    We are not talking about ‘pedophiles’ solely here. Sheila’s girls were teenagers.

    Then we’re talking ‘ehebephiles’.
    Strictly speaking, a pedophile is someone with the hots for pre-pubescents; an ehebephile is someone with the hots for those who are physically sexually mature (past puberty) but legally underage — what used to be called “jail bait”. Problem is, the mind and emotions and personality grow to adulthood slower than the physical characteristics; that 15-year-old bombshell is still a kid inside.

    Both paraphiliae fall under “sexual predator” in the context discussed. And blame-shifting to the victim/beholdee instead of the kink of the beholder is a common defense. (After all, if someone has sinned, It Can’t Be Meeeeeeee.)

    Like

  54. CYBERSITH195 said: “I got captivated and brainwashed into complimentarinism and it almost destroyed my relationship that I have with this awesome woman I know
    Long story short, she was far more forgiving than I deserve and we were able to salvage our relationship before I nearly destroyed it with my stupid beliefs that I held
    Complimentarinism is pure evil in my opinion now”

    Wow – I’d love to hear that story if you ever want to share. I’m glad that you were able to work that out together! Good for you.

    Liked by 1 person

  55. The “not all men” response is part and parcel of systemic sexism – a lot of men are blind to just how often we women are sexualized, cat-called, etc from the time we are girls (as Lea was explaining above).

    It’s more common in our culture for women to be disbelieved if they say they were sexually harassed or sexually assaulted, or they are blamed for it (‘you shouldn’t have had any alcohol / you were out alone at 2 in the morning / the skirt you were wearing was too short’).

    Some men may feel ashamed to come forward and say they were sexually abused by someone else, but when/if they do, I don’t think they are subjected to the same scrutiny that female victims typically are(??),
    ( e.g, “You, a man, were walking alone / in a pair of shorts, so of course you were raped” etc.)

    According to stats I’ve seen on sexual abuse, there is a higher percentage of girl sexual abuse victims at the hand of men, than there are boy victims at the hands of men or of women.

    I’ve never really seen grown men who were sexually abused as boys blame all women, or say or feel that all women are pedophiles.

    That seems to be more common among female assault survivors.

    I can only guess it has to perhaps do with the fact that society is heavily vested in favoring men and meeting men’s needs,
    while we ladies get a lifetime of, “you are only valued for your looks and body, and to be properly feminine, you should be a submissive doormat, and if a man rapes you, it’s because you were wearing a short skirt at the time” type messages from churches, secular culture (advertisements, Hollywood movies, etc).

    Like

  56. Lea said,
    So the way I see it here is that if someone shares about something that hurt them, minimizing it, defending oneself, etc, is dumping in rather than out?
    — end quote —

    Yes. This is a topic that overlaps, not just with sexual assault / harassment victims, but with other things, too.

    After my Mom died, I was badly needing just for someone to sit and hold my hand while I bawled my head off, but instead, I got reactions that compounded the pain (and prolonged the grief)…

    Like, for example, Christians comparing my loss to hungry orphans in Africa and then saying, “see, you don’t have life so bad as those kids do, so shut up.”

    It’s a very dismissive attitude.
    And I’ve had Christians give me theology lessons, and take my anger over the loss and then try to defend God.

    The reaction is almost always to act as “Defense Attorney for God,” rather than to simply acknowledge the hurt / pain of the wounded person.

    I’ve come across very few Christians in the last few years who “get it.”
    The ones who do understand and respond appropriately are usually the ones who went through something similar, and they also experienced insensitive religious replies from others, and are determined not to repeat those errors with others they come across.

    (There are exceptions to this, but that’s usually how it goes.)

    Like

  57. Truth Detector said: Just shouldn’t be so much friendly fire among those of us who agree and stand against these abusers–we have evil enemies, we don’t need to make them of each other. And I fired a lot of shots. Sorry, I was wrong and sorry to CH for being insensitive. I was wrong. God bless all of you.

    Thank you for this. The recent experience with your sister sounds so fresh and is no doubt emotional. i can see how and why you responded the way you did. You experienced something probably most of us will never experience – so many emotions, fear, helplessness, all at once and you were not able to control the outcome of someone so dear to you. That’s a tremendous loss. Take care of yourself as you process this grief. Thank you for trusting us with your story.

    Liked by 1 person

  58. @Mark:

    Mark
    May 25, 2019 at 9:22 AM

    Because in both cases, denim jumper or burqa are hiding The Forbidden Fruit, making it Even More Forbidden. Drawing attention to it — the WRONG kind of attention. “Don’t think of a pink elephant” and all that.

    Whereas the Kardashians (who have some serious problems, but that’s not one of them) are used to it. “Oh, that’s just a swimsuit.” “Okay, she has boobs.” It’s normal, so what?

    Liked by 1 person

  59. @Stepahie:

    “Seeing such a site. . .” Did Toby intend to say SIGHT, instead. Hmm. In statement analysis, there is a phenomenon called leakage, wherein unconscious feelings seep through one’s speech.

    These days it could be Auto-Correct instead of Freudian Slip.
    Though spellcheckers would let the latter through as it is a valid word.
    (Its vs It’s being the most common slip through.)

    Like

  60. @Daisy:

    Secondly, if you google for information about Anna Salter, I believe her name is, (she’s an expert on perverts and has written books about them, and she has interviewed them first hand), she has said that many perverts have told her that they intentionally target churches because…

    The child molesters told Salter that most Christians are naive, idiotic simpletons who have wacked-up theology, which allows them to more easily target kids and to get away with the perversion, even when they are caught.

    WHERE THERE IS EASY PREY, THE PREDATORS WILL SWARM.

    Like

  61. I’ve never really seen grown men who were sexually abused as boys blame all women, or say or feel that all women are pedophiles.

    My understanding of the data is that boys and girls are both more likely to be targeted by men, so that likely plays a role. In addition, offenders who target boys generally have more victims, as opposed to offenders who target girls (although there may be more of those overall, not sure). I suspect this has to do with access?

    Like

  62. Yeah, like when I was at work at a new place, and the female supervisor confessed to me that she was jealous of me. Sorry, “TMI,” (too much information). Let’s take our internal struggles to the Lord to receive His deliverance.

    Like

  63. @ Headless Unicorn Guy
    “These days it could be Auto-Correct instead of Freudian Slip.”

    Yeah, Toby could just be a rotten speller, a` la: “This is your brain on lust.”

    Like

  64. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    “The Kardashians . . . have some serious problems, but that’s not one of them.”

    It’s a sad day, indeed, when the Christian Church seems more messed up than the Kardashian Klan. LOL!

    Like

  65. @Stephanie:

    Yeah, Toby could just be a rotten speller, a` la: “This is your brain on lust.”

    Well, they DO say that sex makes people stupid.

    “I was thinking with the wrong head! OK?”
    — a 22-year-old who got to appear on To Catch a Predator the hard way

    Like

  66. Modesty Policing people doesn’t work any way.

    The Duggar family taught their boy to look away if a woman was so much as revealing her ankles, but he ended up molesting some of his sisters and a baby sitter.

    From man to man and culture to culture sexual attractiveness is not conform, so girls and women have no control.

    In a bio I read, an American woman journalist was staying at a hotel in the Mid-East that had an indoor pool.

    She wore (by most American standards) a modest one-piece swim suit at the pool’s side, reading a magazine.

    She later noticed one of the male hotel employees masturbating while staring at her from a distance.

    She later asked someone who knew the culture better, and he said it’s rare for men there to see women not covered head to toe in an Islamic Potato Sack (burka), so to that one guy, a one piece suit was sexy sexy. To the average American male, her suit would not have made a huge impression.

    In college, in a sociology course I took, I learned about an African tribe where women in the tribe walked around with their nude breasts out all day because breasts in THEIR culture was not considered sexual or a big deal.
    The men in that tribe, however, were turned on by temporary face tats and designs the women would paint on their faces.

    For years, I was a very modest person, and for the love of pete, I’m still a virgin past my mid 40s, yet even I have had men “hit on me” when at jobs or out in public, even on occasions I was not wearing much make up, was in old baggy T-shirts and sweat pants or cut-off jeans.

    Girls and women cannot win in this scenario.
    What one man thinks is conservative dress and would not look at twice, another man would find attractive and sexy.

    Like

  67. Correction, I said,
    “From man to man and culture to culture sexual attractiveness is not conform,”

    I meant is not uniform, or ‘there is no conformity,’
    but my typing came out weird, not what was in my head.

    Like

  68. This is from the RAINN site:

    _Victims of Sexual Violence: Statistics_

    A few details from that page:

    -Younger People Are at the Highest Risk of Sexual Violence

    -Women and Girls Experience Sexual Violence at High Rates

    Millions of women in the United States have experienced rape.

    As of 1998, an estimated 17.7 million American women had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5
    Young women are especially at risk.

    82% of all juvenile victims are female. 90% of adult rape victims are female.6
    Females ages 16-19 are 4 times more likely than the general population to be victims of rape, attempted rape, or sexual assault.3
    Women ages 18-24 who are college students are 3 times more likely than women in general to experience sexual violence. Females of the same age who are not enrolled in college are 4 times more likely.7

    -Men and Boys Are Also Affected by Sexual Violence

    Millions of men in the United States have been victims of rape.

    As of 1998, 2.78 million men in the U.S. had been victims of attempted or completed rape.5
    About 3% of American men—or 1 in 33—have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.5
    1 out of every 10 rape victims are male.8​

    – Native Americans Are at the Greatest Risk of Sexual Violence

    -Transgender Students Are at Higher Risk for Sexual Violence

    -Sexual Violence Affects Thousands of Prisoners Across the Country

    – Sexual Violence in the Military Often Goes Unreported
    —- end stat quotes —

    I’ve read in the past couple of years more and more news coverage of elderly people being raped / groped, like by nursing staff in SNFs or nursing homes.

    This is from CNN:
    _Sick, dying and raped in America’s nursing homes _

    Also, there was recently a news story of a middle-aged or young woman who was in a coma for like a year or more, and she was raped – staff figured that out, because she was pregnant. That was in the news recently.

    So, apparently, anyone in a coma of whatever age is also possibly a target.

    And people are just sick and deranged.

    Like

  69. I also got my subject-verb agreement incorrect above, in the post before the last one.

    I should’ve typed “were” and not “was” at one point.

    Like

  70. So, apparently, anyone in a coma of whatever age is also possibly a target.

    The rates of rape for people who are disabled is much higher than the general population, is my understanding. It makes sense when you think of predators…they go after easier prey. The disadvantaged, the young, etc. If people thought of rape from that perspective, they would see these things more clearly.

    Like

  71. Mark said, “Even then, regardless of the percentages, the point is, when I was spiritually abused. NO ONE STOOD UP FOR ME.”

    I have experienced this and seen it in churches, too. My experience is that conservative churches seem to have unhealthy group dynamics.

    Truth Detector said, “My sis was one of the funniest people ever, she could’ve been a comic. She had a genius-level IQ. And it all was for naught because she got killed by a molester every bit as much as if he’d killed her on the spot. These monsters keep killing decades later. Men and women feel the pain of it.”

    I am so sorry for your traumatic experience and loss. Losing a sibling is so hard, much less losing one under these circumstances.

    If truth be told, I personally believe that this is probably the cause behind much of the drug addiction and suicide in the world today. As you pointed out, he killed your sister just as surely as if he’d killed her on the spot.

    Liked by 1 person

  72. Hi Julie

    Not too sure if this thread here is the right one to tell my “story”? but here goes:

    I have a wonderful relationship with my partner, she is kind and in general a pretty decent and down to earth girlfriend. We got along pretty well, there was no mutual roles for us to fulfill, there was no her part, or my part, we just helped each other when needed, but I began to be influenced by red pill rhetoric and alpha male garbage which I picked up on line and blogs, and I’m shamed to admit it, but it started to change the way I saw my gf….I started to see her as an adversary, that if I don’t keep her on a leash she will destroy me with her evil “hypergamous” nature

    In the rare times we had fights I kept away from her, and never approached her first to apologize, as I was taught that is being weak and not alpha and she will be more attracted to me if I staid strong and in “control”

    Well guess what, women don’t think like how these bastard red pillers think….all my silence did was convince my gf that I didn’t really care about her and that I didn’t love her, when in fact I did….I nearly lost her as a result of this garbage teaching

    Long story short, we are stronger in our love more than ever, and I have abandoned that red pill crap for good….It actually psychologically damaged me, and it turned me into a cold hearted, mean person that hated women and blamed them for everything

    Thank you Julie, for allowing me to comment on your blog here

    God bless

    Liked by 1 person

  73. it turned me into a cold hearted, mean person that hated women and blamed them for everything

    These MRA/Incelish teachings are really, really dangerous. I’m glad you snapped out of it.

    Liked by 1 person

  74. Hi. I’m usually a lurker here but I work with vulnerable children and have been thinking about this lately. I taught high school at a private mostly Evangelical campus. Girls’ clothing and boys’ (and male faculty’s) lust was always a huge topic with no real solution except longer girls’ clothes and more shame. In retrospect I wonder if the incredibly disrespectful behavior I received from the boys starting in junior high (worst offenders were Elders’ sons) had been addressed, maybe they would have begun respecting their female peers. Their behavior was so egregious I finally defaulted to the only logical explanation: This is how they saw their fathers treat their mothers. Now I wonder if they also observed lustful attitudes in their fathers. At one assembly (a “chapel”), an older man (grey hair and beard) spoke on purity and said, “Ladies, you don’t know what it does to us when you raise your arms and we see that little sliver of skin!” It is only in retrospect that I am horrified.

    A last opinion: If your church has a stage, especially one high enough to look up a skirt, rethink your church. The only reasons to have such a structure are to artificially prop up the stature of the leader and to create a venue for the court musicians…middle-aged, second-rate, wannabe rock stars living out a high school fantasy playing the only venue they can get, a trapped audience in a church.

    Liked by 1 person

  75. What a great comment on both the modesty issue and the high stage issue, as well.

    I absolutely agree with you that young boys must be seeing something at home modeled for them, and thus, show that kind of contempt for girls/women.

    Liked by 1 person

  76. Keyboard gremlins, Daisy?

    Sounds more like a “brain fart” — a phenomenon I’m very familiar with.

    Like

  77. I absolutely agree with you that young boys must be seeing something at home modeled for them

    I think we’re also discounting how much society at large is really teaching them, too.

    We had basically no dress code when I was in high school and it was fine, and I tend towards thinking that maybe that’s best.

    Liked by 1 person

  78. @Janet:
    “That little sliver of skin!”

    Is he referring to a lady’s armpits or a bellybutton? Weird, either way.

    Like

  79. I went to a Baptist private school for four months when I was in 8th grade due to fear of being bullied at the local public school, although I did not belong to this denomination.

    There was a strict dress code in force, including mandatory skirts for girls (absolutely no pants). “Purity” obviously was an issue.

    Do you know, however, what we students talked about during lunchtime? Sex; that’s right!

    All of the purity teachings in the world cannot change people’s hearts, and just because a couple waits until marriage to consummate their union does not NECESSARILY mean they are chaste. Perhaps yes, perhaps no.

    A lot of “purity movement” offspring are simply unable to “play around” because their parents monitor their every move. If you don’t sin due to being practically quarantined (a la` Duggar courtship), that is not a credit to your self-control or chaste behavior, but the purity proponents often act like they are better than the rest of us.

    Then, having reached “the finish line” intact, with the help of the church police and the submissive “modest” girls who bow to their fiancées’ every demand to “cover up” or change attire, these “dream boys” mature and seek to impose their will upon the rest of society. Sorry, guys!

    Like

  80. Tony, can you actually hear what you are saying? You are placing blame on girls by saying they shouldn’t dress like sluts. I’m assuming you are an adult. If so, it is disturbing that you would view girls as sluts.

    You’re not the first person I’ve said this to. Stop thinking about women sexually and view them as fellow human beings who think and feel. And, for goodness sake, please stop thinking about girls younger than 18 in a sexual way. That’s gross.

    Liked by 1 person

  81. It seems to me that boys being taught to have self-control…and men taking ownership of controlling their own thoughts and actions – is a completely independent issue from teaching girls what they should wear. Men, you do realize that claiming what a woman is wearing causes you to lose control paints you in a very un flattering light, right? It suggests that men have no impulse control. That is simply not true. But if that’s what you want to own about yourself, that is on you, not women.

    Like

  82. Yeah but you don’t have to add to the temptation by dressing like a slut.

    Tony, terms like ‘slut’ and ‘whore’ seem to have lost all meaning except as all purpose slurs against women. Let people (or women rather, because men can walk around with no shirt all summer long and no one calls them a slut) wear what they choose to wear that suits the occasion and climate. Look after yourself and let others look after themselves.

    Dress has very little correlation to men’s temptation or behavior, in my experience.

    Like

  83. I am wondering what is worse – a woman who dresses like a slut (whatever the hell that means) or a man with a filthy mouth? And yes, Tony, you certainly do have a filthy mouth. I assume it matches your personality.

    Like

  84. a woman who dresses like a slut (whatever the hell that means)

    Carmen, I’m convinced this particular insult means less than nothing. Men use it for control, and since they all have widely differing opinions on what women (and girls!) should and should not be wearing? Makes for a lot of nonsense.

    Look at the massively lopsided policing of girls in school dress codes, based on body type, looks, probably race although I haven’t done a deep dive, etc. And it’s so sad because girls at that age are really figuring out what they like, what suits and fits them, all while their bodies are actively changing on them. I remember some kid at a Christian in 7th grade shaming me for having hips when I wore jeans. (they had just sprouted on me, but apparently I was attempting to catch attention?). Nonsense. Men and boys need to shut their mouths on this topic entirely because it’s not their business.

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  85. @Kathi:

    You’re not the first person I’ve said this to. Stop thinking about women sexually and view them as fellow human beings who think and feel.

    “Sexually” is part of the mix, but should NOT be the entire mix. Or even the dominant ingredient of the mix. We’ve seen where such “thinking with the wrong head” can lead, and it isn’t pretty.

    Like

  86. Tony, Proverbs 7 puts it entirely on the man.
    “My son, keep my words And treasure my commandments within you.
    Keep my commandments and live, And my teaching as the apple of your eye.
    Bind them on your fingers; Write them on the tablet of your heart.
    Say to wisdom, “You are my sister,” And call understanding your intimate friend;
    That they may keep you from an adulteress, From the foreigner who flatters with her words.”

    There’s no excuse given there for… “well, she tempted me”
    What I’ve seen is that modest clothing is just as provocative as immodest clothing. In conservative evangelical circles, denim jumpers are a statement that this woman has been groomed to be a sex slave for her future husband. I think women wearing culturally appropriate clothing are not making a statement. It’s pretty often cited that missionaries in Africa suffered backlash when they told women to cover up because it was the prostitutes that covered their breasts. It’s a Western cultural thing to sexualize breasts.

    Like

  87. @Mark:

    “There’s no excuse given [in Proverbs 7] for “well, she tempted me.”

    Great application from the Bible, Mark, and here is one of my own:

    “Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.”
    James 1:14 King James Version

    Or how about this quote from a famous playwright:

    “Often times excusing of a fault doth make the fault the worse by the excuse.”
    William Shakespeare, King John

    Or this one from Matthew 5:8,
    “Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.”
    Jesus of Nazareth

    And, finally, the Apostle Paul’s take:
    “To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled.”
    Titus 1:15 New King James Version

    Like

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