Complementarianism, Desiring God, Doctrine as Idol, Feminist Agenda, Gender Roles, John Piper

Greg Morse at Desiring God Laments Strong Women

Greg Morse, Desiring God, Complementarian Theology, Misogyny

Greg Morse Desiring God

-by Kathi

Greg Morse at Desiring God recently lamented over the female lead role in the superhero movie, Captain Marvel. Here is what he thinks of society’s view of women in protective roles:

As I consider Disney’s new depiction of femininity in Captain Marvel, I cannot help but mourn. How far we’ve come since the days when we sought to protect and cherish our women.

I wish it were. Instead of engaging the movie’s ideology as mere fiction, a fun escape to another world, we have allowed it to bear deadly fruit on earth. Along with Disney, we abandon the traditional princess vibe, and seek to empower little girls everywhere to be strong like men. Cinderella trades her glass slipper for combat boots; Belle, her books for a bazooka. Does the insanity bother us anymore?

We ought to lament that feminist lust cannot be appeased, even with blood. It takes its daughters and now, calling men’s bluff, advocates for sending its mothers into the flames.

We used to be attuned enough to know how shameful it is for men to hide behind their women, hoping she will take down Goliath. Have we forgotten how precious our women are? Have we forgotten that it is our glory to die in their place?

I would venture to guess that if Mr. Morse was in a profession where his life was in danger every day he would appreciate the women that worked along side him in the same capacity. None of his rhetoric is surprising given John Piper’s views of women in the military. Morse is merely towing the DG party line.

But, then again, his thoughts on women also shouldn’t be surprising since he thinks effeminacy is a sin obscured by Satan.


Twitter has been all abuzz with people commenting on the article. Morse sure got a lot of push back, understandably:

Well, there was someone who liked the article:


To end, I would like to suggest to Mr. Morse that he stop using language such as “our women” and “their women” in his writing. Women are not property of men. Women are human beings and image bearers of God. And women are as willing as men to lay down their lives for others.

332 thoughts on “Greg Morse at Desiring God Laments Strong Women”

  1. @KAS

    ” He does not say, as you would expect from the parallel construction woman is the image and glory of man, and the absence of explicitly saying woman is created in the image of God does not mean he didn’t believe this”

    An argument from silence is very weak and you know that. Paul WAS referencing Genesis 1 when he used that parallel construction, so if he states that man was created in the image of God, but that women is created in the image of man that’s good enough for me to accept. One thing you consistently refuse to see, only Eve was created in the image of God….once she fell into sin, it spread her corruption and filth to all of creation for every woman born since that time, this is why AFTER the fall, women are NEVER seen as being made in the image of God, women are made in the image of MAN, because he is the head, and was created first.

    “Where?”

    Your query is in regards to my statement that women were ordained by God to be the property of man. That’s easy to answer, see Exo 20:17  “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s”. This shows by grammatical construction that women ARE included in as belonging to thy neighbour”. Also A woman’s promise is binding only if her father or husband agrees, see numbers 30:1-16. Also Daughters can be bought and sold, see Exodus 21:7, this would not be possible unless she belonged in some way to someone, in this case, her father. I could give many more examples, but I think I’ve made my point.

    “Incidentally, if adultery is so evil, it is because you are STEALING another man’s property why is it sinful for a woman to commit adultery? By parity of reasoning …”

    It’s sinful for a woman to commit adultery PRECISELY because she DOES belong to her husband, so she does not have the right to give her body to anyone else, her body belongs to him and him alone…..This is why God defines adultery, as a WOMAN that breaks wedlock, (this construction is NEVER used of the man), see Ezekiel 16:38, and also Leviticus 18 where adultery is specifically defined as sex with THY NEIGHBOR’S WIFE. The modern definition of adultery, which is shown in the media, and woman’s magazines is NOT how God defines adultery, the modern definition of adultery is whenever a spouse cheats on each other….No it’s not, this is why a married man could have sex with an unattached single woman, and NOT be accused of committing adultery by God, the man simply adds her as a second wife. The reason no sin has been committed is because the man did not steal someone else’s PROPERTY. Now don’t get angry at me, I’m just the messenger, this is what God says, NOT ME.

    “In the wrong order, where are Christian men extolled to get their women under control?”.
    Too many places in the bible to mention them all to you. women are commanded to be in subjection, to be obedient, to not speak in church, to not teach, especially if there are men around, and according to 1st Peter, her reverent, submission and Godly lifestyle(conversation) in the KJV is to be used to change her husband’s behavior if it doesn’t line up with the bible, she is NOT to nag, etc…..all these examples are hammering home the FACT that a woman is under her husband’s leadership, and he is to guide her and even DISCIPLINE her if needed when she steps out of line.

    “As for karma, why are you appealing to a pagan religious concept? Hinduism and Buddhism, plus a bit of Islam thrown in for good measure. Being a bit syncretistic there. Oh well, the more the merrier”.

    You have me on that one, it was wrong of me to use a pagan concept such as karma, I should have used the biblical concept in Romans 8 about the whole of creation groaning and travaileth because of sin.

    “I note you refer to wifely submission, as do the NT writers, but the instructions given to husbands, of which there are many, are conspicuous by their absence”.

    They are conspicuous by their absence because the topic is not about a man’s responsibilities towards his wife, it is about female rebellion and a woman’s innate sinful desire to usurp authority over men 1st Timothy 2:12.

    The very fact that I’ve had to battle so long and hard on this issue here in this blog proves my point precisely because this web forum is comprised mostly of women, and I’ve basically triggered you all by me quoting scripture and what a wife’s role is supposed to be. It will be the same as if I preached the sinfulness of alcohol to a bunch of drunks, it would absolutely trigger them. Yes the sinful fleshly tendencies of women do not like to be told they are property, and to be under a husbands authority, they resent that, but this is where prayer is needed to break the holds of this filthy demonic spirit of Jezebel that seeks to destroy women and marriages by controlling them and manipulating them into disobedience to the word of God and to their husbands. But just because I teach so strongly on this topic, don’t think for a second that I let men off the hook either.

    I never expected my preaching here would be well received, but even when I attempted to show a softer side and a willingness to compromise, I was absolutely destroyed here. The cardinal error I made is forgetting a principle that I live by, to not show any mercy to women, because when you do, that’s when women will pounce on you and tear you apart, because my experience has taught me that women see any compassion and empathy from a man as weakness……Well I disobeyed my own rule and I paid dearly for it.

    Anyway I think I’ve made my point, so I’m prepared to leave it for now, and concentrate on the actual theme of this particular topic, unless I get some very specific questions.

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  2. @Katy

    “Are you of the charismatic/Pentecostal arm of the visible c’hurch? Avid asks a fair question of you, and my question is legitimate as well”.

    No I am not, I find there’s a lot of doctrinal errors and excesses in the Pentecostal movement, so I avoid those churches…….I admire their passion for the Lord, I really do, but it’s just too tainted with error.

    Yes Avid asked me a fair question, and until now, I have avoided answering because I fear it is to trap me, I need to know his motive….The Pharisees also attempted to trap Jesus up with their questions.

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  3. Phewwww!! back to the topic at hand!.

    Did any of you actually have any interest in Marvel, or watch Marvel movies?.
    This question is pertinent to this topic because without that foundation, you won’t know what the heck Greg Morse is on about and why he is so upset at Captain Marvel.

    Now I’m speaking from a position of power here because I am addicted to the MCU, and have seen each and every film that the MCU has put out, in fact I have seen them multiple times. To say that I’m a fan would be an understatement, so I know an awful lot about Captain Marvel, in fact I would hazard to say that I know more about her than anyone else here in this blog!.

    You also need to realize that some of the long standing characters in the Marvel franchise, are pissed off at Brie Larson and Captain Marvel, and that includes Scarlett Johansson who plays Black Widow and Scarlet Witch (Wanda Maximoff),, and Robert Downey Junior as Iron Man. If you ask me I’ll tell you why they are upset at CM

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  4. This is the funniest thing I’ve read all day. Necron48 thinks he’s a victim when people disagree with him. Pulling out the violin now.

    I never expected my preaching here would be well received, but even when I attempted to show a softer side and a willingness to compromise, I was absolutely destroyed here. The cardinal error I made is forgetting a principle that I live by, to not show any mercy to women, because when you do, that’s when women will pounce on you and tear you apart, because my experience has taught me that women see any compassion and empathy from a man as weakness……Well I disobeyed my own rule and I paid dearly for it.

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  5. @Julie Anne

    Attempting to shame me and belittle me now?.
    Would it be an unfair generalization to say that your response is a typical woman’s resonse?.
    I’m not a victim at all because people disagreed with me,I have much thicker skin than that. I was attempting to show how women cannot be trusted to play fair, and to.never show kindness to.women because they will pounce on you. By the way thank you for proving me right!.

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  6. Thank-you KAS for your truthful comment thread, I agree with you as well.

    Captain Marvel has created much chaos in the land of make believe because, gosh darn, the Captain in now a “woman!” And now comic book characters have become antagonistic to the so called Christian theologians’ agenda within the c’hurch? My, how the c’hurch has digressed.

    There are times when I believe my farm dog has more common sense than educated biblical(?) scholars. And no, I do not believe that I am sinning when I give a man directions to one of our fields, nor am I sinning when I give a man instructions how to operate the tractor/auger system, nor am I sinning when I stand my ground when I am right on a particular topic, nor am I sinning when I admit weakness and need extra help…..like lifting a flat chisel plow tire into the pick-up to drive into town to the fix-it shop.

    We are all equipped with strengths and weaknesses and are called to bear one another’s burdens; Jesus’ Words, not mine. It’s called “loving thy neighbor.”

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  7. Necron48 – I have a hard time taking anything you’ve said seriously. I say this because you have talked to and about women in the following ways:

    -Women are NOT image bearers of God
    -Women are men’s property
    -Women are decreed by the highest power in the universe, namely God Almighty, to be the property of their husbands, that is God’s authoritative wish for women
    -The earth is literally rebelling and violently resisting female domination
    -Women were created for MEN, not the other way around, women are our helpmeets, they are NOT equal to us
    -Women are supposed to integrate into OUR lives, we don’t integrate into a woman’s life, women are to serve us
    -Since women are prone to deception it is foolish to heed the words of your wife
    -Women feel more secure knowing they belong to a superior authority
    -You are following the Spirit of Jezebel, and you resent all forms of male power and authority.-God help the poor man who would be foolish enough to marry you.
    -What you are is a disobedient rebel, making excuses for your sin
    -Wicked women infected with the spirit of Jezebel

    Not to mention the unacceptable way you spoke to scott1253

    You are not winning anyone over with these words. Please stop.

    Liked by 2 people

  8. N48, you continue to miss great swaths of scripture:

    “One thing you consistently refuse to see, only Eve was created in the image of God….once she fell into sin, it spread her corruption and filth to all of creation for every woman born since that time”

    Rom 5:12-14: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.”

    Again, the Bible disagrees with you. It is ADAM’S sin that spread corruption to all mankind, not Eve’s

    “Also Daughters can be bought and sold, see Exodus 21:7, this would not be possible unless she belonged in some way to someone, in this case, her father.”

    Jesus commented on the law in Matt 19:8 – “He *said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way.” This allows for the possibility, and even the likelihood that certain laws in the Old Testament did not fully express God’s will. For example, slavery existed in the OT and in the 1800’s, slave owners tried to use the OT sanction of slavery to argue that God approved of it, but ultimately the truth won out that one man owning another as property was not God’s heart in the matter. The OT allowed polygamy, but in the NT, it’s a qualification for elders that they do not have multiple wives. So, arguing God’s _approval_ of something simply because there is a law governing it doesn’t hold water.

    “the modern definition of adultery is whenever a spouse cheats on each other….No it’s not, this is why a married man could have sex with an unattached single woman, and NOT be accused of committing adultery by God”

    “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother, and the two shall become one flesh” (Gen 2 / Mark 10) So, you are making the case for Lesbianism. If a man marries a wife, they become one flesh. If the man subsequently marries a second wife, then the man and the new wife are one flesh, but… the man and the first wife are already one flesh, so you have one wife joined to the second wife. That’s why the church as of Paul, and not something that CBS invented. Realized that one man one woman was God’s intent for marriage. Polygamy was a result of… women as property which was part of the curse. By the way, Biblical trivia. Who invented polygamy? It was Lamech, who was not exactly the most righteous guy alive.

    “The very fact that I’ve had to battle so long and hard on this issue here in this blog proves my point precisely because this web forum is comprised mostly of women”

    Or… just perhaps because YOU’RE WRONG and this blog has people who will challenge your errors.

    “I never expected my preaching here would be well received, but even when I attempted to show a softer side and a willingness to compromise, I was absolutely destroyed here.”

    You mean your ARGUMENTS were destroyed? If you’re still responding, I can only assume that you’re still alive.

    “Anyway I think I’ve made my point, so I’m prepared to leave it for now, and concentrate on the actual theme of this particular topic, unless I get some very specific questions.”

    Yup, I think we get your point, that when someone, in your case, a misogynist, reads the Bible only looking for it to confirm what he’s already concluded to be the truth, it’s most likely that he will find exactly what he’s looking for.

    “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.”

    Just FYI, “sons” in Gal 3:26 is specifically masculine. So, Paul is calling women “sons” alongside Jews, Greeks, slaves, free, and males. And then he has the nerve to call these women “heirs according to promise”. Did you know that in OT law, daughters only inherited if there were no males? Intriguing. Maybe Paul just didn’t believe that women were inferior.

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  9. To NECRON48
    I was Amish. left 14 years ago after being sexually abused by the bishop of my church. I reported him to the police, something the Amish frown on. In this extreme patriarchy, you are talking about there is so much abuse. I know the bible pretty well and can say you are just reaching in and taking out pieces that you want to make your point.

    I lived under extreme patriarchy for years among the Amish, the sexual abuse of women and children is rampant and extreme. Men tell women and children they can not go to the police, they must forgive their abusers and they must confess to the rape is their fault in church. The sexual predators end up with dozens of victims 😦

    I just got off the phone with an Ex-Amish rape victim. She told the minsters ( all male) that she was raped, they shunned her for two months because they deemed it her fault. Nothing was done to the man. This was a young Amish teenager, clothed from the top of her head to bottom of her feet. She screamed NO and the guy still raped her. I am talking to another Ex Amish rape victim tomorrow with a similar story.

    This is your preferred world that you are describing. A place where every woman must do what she is told by her husband, her father, and the ministers of her church. I want to tell you it is a morally corrupt system most of the time, if not all of the time. I have never heard of a case where it was not. These men commit these sins, and they are sins, of that I can assure you!

    One ex Mennonite woman I know of said her mother told her she heard her getting raped as a child in the next room often but did nothing because there was nothing she could do without going against her husband and church leadership. Is this the kind of world you want us to live in? A world where men run everything? I have lived in that world and it is a horrifying nightmare. Sexual abuse, child sexual abuse, bestiality and animal cruelty run rampant. If men are the moral guides, made in the image of God and are morally superior to women why would this happen 😦

    Also, I know for a fact that every Patriarchial church is like this. I have heard from sexual abuse and domestic violence survivors from just about every denomination that holds onto this Patriarchial view. We all have had the same experiences and the beliefs on these issues are the same throughout all Patriarchial churches. This is not Christ-like behavior, not in the least. I don’t mean this as a personal attack, It is just coming from someone who knows so many child sexual abuse survivors who have had to fight their way out of the Patriarchial system 😦

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  10. Necron48 –

    “I was absolutely destroyed here.”
    “never show kindness to.women because they will pounce on you”

    Never, ever show kindness to women? That’s how you decide to go through life? How do you manage to make it through a day when half of the people you will encounter are women?

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  11. Misty, I believe you. I’m very sorry to hear about the abuse you incurred by your bishop. It sounds like you are using your horrific experience and helping others who have similar experiences. I love that.

    I have a hunch how Necron48 will respond. You certainly did not attack him. But even your horrific story will not cause him to change his beliefs on women being property belonging to men. I don’t want you to get your hopes up with this guy – you will just be spinning your wheels.

    Thank you for speaking out for victims!

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  12. Oh I know 🙂 I made the comment more for anyone who might read the blog, just to add some perspective to what the world would look like if we all followed his train of thought and if that world became a reality. Sadly for many women and children, it is their reality 😦

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  13. Misty – I am so sorry to hear of the abuse you suffered. Thank you for your important words and thank you for helping other victims. It’s heart-breaking how abuse thrives under the name of God.

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  14. (part 1)
    CLOCKWORK ANGEL said,
    “I totally get you about the Force Awakens. When reviews for the movie were first piling in, so many men were freaking out about how “feminist” it was, like Rey was some sort of man-hater.

    When I finally got around to seeing it, I really didn’t understand what they were freaking out about.
    — end quotes —

    Yeah, that was one of the films that a lot of guys online were complaining about, say it was wrong to have a woman in the lead and so on.

    I saw it at the movie theater, and it wasn’t pro or anti-feminist, it just happened to be a movie with a woman in the lead. At no time did the lead woman character, Rey, go on rants against men or anything like that.

    This is true for a lot of these movies that the Incel / MRAs etc bash before they even open.

    Before Ghostbusters ever opened in theaters (2016 version), they were down-voting its trailer on You Tube and complaining that have women in the leads was “ruining their childhoods.”

    These same type of guys protested Black Panther before that came out.

    They seem to assume, over the last few years, that each and every new movie that does not have a white, male lead in it is automatically a liberal, SJW, virtue signaling piece – when most of them are no such thing.

    Granted some of the celebrities or directors of these things did some some politically-charged comments prior to the release of these films, which rubbed some of the sexist men online the wrong way.

    In the future, I think the actors and directors should try to, well, avoid the buzzwords and such that set these guys off, when they are going the round in interviews, pre-release, to drum up media attention.

    (continued in part 2)

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  15. (part 2)
    Reply to Clockwork Angel

    You said,
    “It’s already meandering. Snopes or whatever his name is is already dead before you even found out how he got into power, so by the time we find out what happened before the first movie started, we already don’t care anymore, and so forth.”
    — end quotes —

    I also saw Last Jedi at the movie theater, and I did not like it

    A lot of Incel / Red Pill / MGTOW etc types hated it because the women were front and center AND there were scenes in it of the women corrected the male pilot. That really hacked them off.

    But the reason I disliked TLJ had nothing to do with men, women, gender roles sexism, etc, and just the fact the story line was disjointed, weird, and it was mostly (IMHO) a dull movie.

    They also just casually dismissed story elements from the first film that they had previously made a big deal of, like the bad guy, Snoke.
    They set Snoke up to be a Big Deal of the movie, but in the next one (spoiler alert), he gets cut in half like he was nothing.
    Why the big build up of him just to take him out so easily in the next movie???

    Anyway. Most of these movies these sexist men complain about being man-hating feminist cinema turn out just to be run of the mill action adventure movies – there’s no man-bashing going on.

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  16. @Misty Griffin

    I don’t care what everyone here thinks of me, but I just wanted to say that I believe you, and I am sickened in my heart about your terrible experiences you had. Though I have been faithful to teach a woman’s part in being submissive and obedient, I have not emphasized that as man is head of the wife, Christ is head of the man, which means if he is acting sinful, and against the gentleness of Christ, like what happened in your case, then that man is in for a huge wake up call and it ain’t going to be pretty.

    With much power comes much responsibility and Christ will hold each of us men to account for the way we mistreat our wives, you can be sure of that. In fact God says that He will refuse to hear our prayers.

    Those men in the Amish community sound like bully’s…..I don’t tolerate bully’s PERIOD.

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  17. @Kathi

    NO it’s not what I want…..My experience has been, every woman I have shown kindness and gentleness to, I have been abused. I’m sorry for saying this, but women do not play “fair”.
    I personally don’t agree with the PUA movement, but it is based on knowing about women psychology, and women’s psychology has taught them that women are attracted to men who treat them like trash, women go for the “bad boys”, and reject the nice guy.

    Now before I get attacked again, I am not being a victim here, and I am not advocating this kind of despicable behavior towards women, I am simply stating that an enormous amount of scum bag men have identified woman’s weaknesses in these areas and use it against them to exploit them….for e.g don’t show kindness towards women, show indifference and coldness and it will win them over. These principles go against everything we are taught in the bible, but the unanswered question remains, why do women (in general, not all) respond this way? there seems to be some genetic flaw in women that makes them only respond to masculine, even cruel strength. Imagine a society where when a man shows kindness or gentleness to women they are met with the same in kind, instead of belittling and condescending remarks against his manhood.

    I remember over 20 years ago when I was married, my ex getting in my face, verbally cussing me with every disgusting swear word you can imagine, smashing property, throwing things, having a right vile temper tantrum, and when I refused to hit her, do you know what she said? you’re not a man, you can’t even smash me……..I’m sorry but when men fight with men, we never say such garbage like that, only women would dare to think that because a man doesn’t hit her, he must be weak. This is what I’m talking about, and this is what millions of men have to put up with every day of their lives.

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  18. Necron48 – I am sorry to hear of the abuse that you endured. You did not deserve to be treated that way. I do hope that you are able to find someone who can help you process through the verbal and emotional abuse you experienced.

    The reason why I pulled out some of your quotes to and about women is because I’m hoping you’ll be able to hear how you come across. You’ve come on to a site where for the most part people do not think that the Bible supports God-ordained gender roles. If you’re trying to debate that the Bible does, no one is going to hear it because of how you have chosen to address people in a demeaning manner. I think that if you address people here in a respectful way, you will find that others will respond in the same manner.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. @Daisy

    “They set Snoke up to be a Big Deal of the movie, but in the next one (spoiler alert), he gets cut in half like he was nothing”

    I was furious when that happened……They set up Snokes to be even more powerful than the Emperor, and you’re telling me he couldn’t sense a lightsaber not 2 feet away from him?

    And they killed off Luke…..Like what’s up with that nonsense?
    And how can Rey be more force adept than even Luke, with no training at all?……Yeah the last Jedi had a whole heap of things wrong with it. Hopefully Disney will realize it’s mistake and make things right with the next Star Wars movie

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  20. Necron48, I agree with Kathi – no one deserves to be treated that way.

    My concern is with your interpretation of the matter: “These principles go against everything we are taught in the bible, but the unanswered question remains, why do women (in general, not all) respond this way?”

    It’s what society teaches them, not just secular society, but also the church culture. It’s just that we disagree which church culture. In Jesus’s time, no Rabbi would ever have a female disciple. There were the Pharisees who were the religious conservatives and the Sadducees who were the liberals, and the Pharisees generally followed the Talmud, which was women as property patriarchal. Jesus, however, allowed Mary to sit at his feet and listen, and told Martha that Mary had chosen the good thing.

    “there seems to be some genetic flaw in women that makes them only respond to masculine, even cruel strength.”

    Again, I think this is cultural, and especially in the Greg Morse-style complementarianism. Women and men are forced into societal roles. Men are taught to be strong, confident, emotionless and decisive, while women are taught to be weak, insecure, emotional and indecisive. Men and women who don’t fit these roles are called effeminate or bossy. In the same way, men and women are taught what they should look for in an appropriate mate. Not surprisingly, “be yourself” isn’t exactly the pattern. Women are told they should be attracted to the “strong, silent type”, and they are taught to act stupid or ditzy or weak because they think that is more attractive. So, not surprisingly, this can result in women being attracted to the stereotypical “Gold’s Gym” guy.

    Again, with Jesus, Mary and Martha, Martha is the one who is claiming the societal role. She is cooking and cleaning for Jesus and she (and her patriarchal culture) expect that Mary should be doing the same, but instead, Mary is hanging out in the living room with ‘the boys’ talking theology. Jesus says that Mary made the better choice – not to be a slave in the kitchen but to be among the disciples. What does Isaiah say about Jesus? “He has no stately form or majesty
    That we should look upon Him, Nor appearance that we should be attracted to Him. He was despised and forsaken of men…” So, Jesus, despite being a perfect example of masculinity, wasn’t a “hunk”. He cried. He probably didn’t have a six pack and probably didn’t show off his amazing biceps.

    I wish you could do that soul-searching. Is it teaching women that they and their ideas should be respected that is perpetuating the abusive and rape culture, or is it teaching women that they are subhuman and only created for the enjoyment of men?

    Liked by 1 person

  21. “And how can Rey be more force adept than even Luke, with no training at all?”

    The Jedi tended to be very wary of anything remotely resembling the dark side. Luke’s training was from old-school Jedis who had a very textbook approach to how a Jedi should be prepared. Rey, on the other hand, if I remember correctly, had her first force experience at the hands of a Sith. She wouldn’t have the same sort of apprehensions about using the force that a Jedi would be taught. Also, when Luke ‘tests’ her, she is drawn immediately to the ‘power’ of the force.

    But, I completely agree – why would they spend all that time making Snoke looking way more powerful than the Emperor and then just kill him off with the wave of a lightsaber, and why would they go through similar effort with Luke just to have him be a diversion.

    I think it’s similar to Ep 1-3. They have a goal but not a path. 7-9 are just building up to some sort of mega showdown between Kylo Ren and Rey, just as Ep 1-3 was all about explaining how Anakin Skywalker could become Darth Vader (and doing a poor job, mind you). The only problem is that there are all these larger-than-life characters in the way. There can’t be a plausible showdown between the two if Luke, Leia or Han are still around.

    I don’t get why they didn’t just film the “Heir to the Empire” trilogy. Probably not enough wacky planets and space battles for their liking.

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  22. N48,
    Tears streaming for you here as you shared a parcel of your life story. My heart cries for you in compassion and empathy for we have experienced similar circumstances in this life regarding the opposite gender.

    Prayers for you today, in the Name of our Mighty Great Physician, our LORD Jesus Christ. You are worthy too, of His Great Love and Forgiveness.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Necronnonsense: Yes the sinful fleshly tendencies of women do not like to be told they are property

    LOL. Shocking!! Women don’t want to be slaves. Just like men don’t want to be slaves.

    Necronnonsense: Did any of you actually have any interest in Marvel, or watch Marvel movies?.

    I’ve seen a ton of them. Everything he said is still stupid. He’s yammering on about Disney princesses for goodness sakes. I suppose every woman in movies should all be like the ‘good’ sleeping beauty, who in the original stories was basically raped while asleep.

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  24. to.never show kindness to.women because they will pounce on you.

    You can’t come in and quote bible verses at everyone and expect me to take you seriously as a ‘christian’ when you also say this, because it is antithetical to everything Christ taught. Do better.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. I personally don’t agree with the PUA movement, but it is based on knowing about women psychology, and women’s psychology has taught them that women are attracted to men who treat them like trash, women go for the “bad boys”, and reject the nice guy.

    This is super off topic, but the PUA’s have taken a tiny kernel of truth, which is that women appreciate confident men, and turned it into nonsense. Women don’t go for ‘bad boys’ that such a dumb stereotype I have tried to explain to men so many times in real life that just because they think a guy is mean does not mean that is how they have actually approached women in real life. Most guys that actually are jerks start off very kind and slowly build. It takes a while to realize that this isn’t the person you thought you were dating. It seems like this is how most abuse happens. Other women have had bad family or dating experiences and may not know what is truly healthy. No woman WANTs to be dating a jerk.

    And most guys who deem themselves ‘nice guys’ aren’t all that nice. Check out r/niceguys.

    I do think there are some men who are too afraid to approach women, or when they do they approach them with desperation, which is generally a turn off for men AND women, and in a limited way the stupid ‘tricks’ are more of a fake it till you make it into confidence. But none of this is about women wanting jerks, because they don’t.

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  26. [Also, most of these ‘women like bad boys’ stuff literally dates to high school, when EVERYBODY has a brain that is still developing and we are all stupid about relationships so…why expect teenage girls to have it all figured out when teenage boys definition don’t? We’re all figuring stuff out at that age. I think a lot of Incels/misogyny is built on this view that grown women will act exactly as they did in middle school for the rest of their lives…which is generally nonsense]

    Anyways, sorry for the digression, this article is still stupid.

    Like

  27. Necron48 – You’re welcome. No one ever deserves to be abused. I stand passionately on that.

    Maybe this is a good time to restart. You are always welcome to express your views and opinions here as long as there are no personal attacks. Address people with the same amount of respect that you would like to receive. Just know that you will most likely get pushback on some areas, but dialog and coming to a better understanding of each other is healthy.

    I do have a question for you. By chance could the views of women that you expressed earlier be due to personal experiences which then reflect on how you read the Bible? You don’t have to answer, perhaps a reflection.

    Liked by 1 person

  28. @Kathi

    Yeah I guess my experiences with women have clouded my judgment somewhat…..I haven’t even told you the half of what I’ve been through.
    When I encounter kind women like you, and Katy, I just melt, and my “nice” side comes out….but then I see myself going back to the mean part of me that wants to hate all women, and I know that is so wrong

    I’m going to restart like you said……You, Katy and even Julie Anne have been more gracious to me than I deserve. This truly is a nice, welcoming and friendly blog (almost ruined by my anger)

    Liked by 1 person

  29. @Lea

    That’s so not true. Richard Ramirez had literally flocks of adoring women fans and he even got engaged when in prison. If you knew who he was, you would be shocked.
    Also some women never grow out of being with bad boys because I see it all the time in my country, you just have to go to any gang leaders pad, and see how many women they got hanging around with them, and these guys are hardened criminals with tats, filthy clothes, unwashed bodies, dope smoking, fighting, intimidation, burglary etc.

    “Anyways, sorry for the digression, this article is still stupid”.

    Which article are you talking about?

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  30. Whenever I see negative reactions from Comic/Fantasy fans about a new strong female lead who goes out and fights the bad guys, I find it amusing. The grandfather of all Fantasy novels, J.R.R. Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings trilogy, written decades ago when society was more ‘traditional’, has the second strongest and most menacing villain after Sauron, the Witch King of Angmar, killed by a woman, Eowyn. Eowyn puts on armour and goes out to fight in her uncle’s army, against the instructions of her uncle to stay home, I might add. She kills the Witch King while protecting her wounded uncle. Furthermore, she is the only one capable of killing the Witch King, because he cannot be killed by a man, and even Gandalf, the White Wizard, is unable to overcome him. When her identity is discovered, none of the male characters get bent out of shape by her decision to go to war, rather they sympathize with and honour her, including her uncle before his death from his injuries. No one has ever made a fuss about Eowyn’s role as a Shield Maiden of Rohan being some feminist conspiracy.

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  31. That’s so not true. Richard Ramirez had literally flocks of adoring women fans and he even got engaged when in prison. If you knew who he was, you would be shocked.

    Dude. You need to stop reading this nonsense on the internet. There are some very disturbed women out there. ALSO! The existence of people like proves there are EVEN MORE DISTURBED men out there. You see a man who is a murderer and a woman who is disturbed and writing to him (where he is actually not a threat to her at all, as he is in prison) and decide that women are terrible. That’s poor logic. These people are on the extremes. Most women are not seeking out bad guys and it disingenuous to act like they are based on a few examples.

    Everything you have to say on this topic is stuff I’ve seen from misogynists on the internet. Please rethink the things you are reading. Read something from women’s perspective, perhaps. Many things.

    You absolutely do need to put your anger in perspective. I’ve been treated poorly by men in my life at times. I certainly don’t go on extended rants about how men should be property and controlled until they learn to behave themselves and if I did men like you would FLIP out about it. You need to gain some perspective on this and stop filtering through your own experiences and the experiences of men only.

    Which article are you talking about?

    The one that is the topic of this thread? Ha.

    Liked by 2 people

  32. Sidenote but relevant I think, was just reading a page from the mosque killers (supposed) manifesto and came across this thought, in all caps:

    Diversity is unequal, Hierarchies are certain.

    This is what is coming out of white supremacists, but I think it fits scarily in the thinking of the patriarchal world as well.

    Liked by 1 person

  33. @Daisy
    March 14, 2019 at 2:04 PM

    _‘Triple Frontier’ Has the Male Protagonists the Captain Marvel-Hating Bros Want …and They’re a Joke_ by Tyler Daswick

    “Triple Frontier” sounds like a boilerplate “Gunpowder Jerkoff”, i.e. the LOWEST form of action movie.

    At least an “Arnold Movie” KNEW it was a Gunpowder Jerkoff and had fun with the whole concept through Schwarzenegger black humor.

    Whoever made TF has the “grim unsmiling concentration” of the True Believer.(In that respect, kinda like Christianese Movies.)

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  34. @Lea:

    Sidenote but relevant I think, was just reading a page from the mosque killers (supposed) manifesto and came across this thought, in all caps:

    Diversity is unequal, Hierarchies are certain.

    Which has just enough kernel of truth in it to make it easy to swallow the Big Lie.

    Because humans in groups DO tend to shake down into some form of hierarchy. Usually when said group reaches the human troop-size limit of 100-150 or the family-size limit of 10-12.

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  35. @Lea:

    to.never show kindness to.women because they will pounce on you.

    You can’t come in and quote bible verses at everyone and expect me to take you seriously as a ‘christian’ when you also say this, because it is antithetical to everything Christ taught. Do better.

    I have long believed that a LOT of the Mens’ Rights/Manosphere types got burned REAL bad by a woman in their past and are taking it out against anyone/anything without a Y Chromosome. From experience, I know rage (and wanting revenge) is a reaction to a burn job, but usually it burns itself out over time. These guys get permanently stuck at that point.

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  36. That’s so not true. Richard Ramirez had literally flocks of adoring women fans and he even got engaged when in prison. If you knew who he was, you would be shocked.

    Whoever wrote that has obviously never heard of “Harley Quinn Syndrome”.

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  37. Which has just enough kernel of truth in it to make it easy to swallow the Big Lie.

    HUG, it also sounds super Orwellian! I think that’s why it struck me.

    Always, though, the people spouting these beliefs have consciously or unconsciously put themselves in the spaces they want to be, they are never part of the ‘diversity’, they just expect to be in the jobs/places they want to be without challenge. They are always (in their minds) at the top of the hierarchy.

    This dovetails with the article I read from challies or someone of his ilk that said women are biased in interpreting the bible to put themselves on equal footing, yet simultaneously he acknowledges that MEN could also be biased to put themselves at the top, however that doesn’t count because based on his (biased) interpretation he thinks he right. Maddening logic fails at every level really.

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  38. I have long believed that a LOT of the Mens’ Rights/Manosphere types got burned REAL bad by a woman in their past and are taking it out against anyone/anything without a Y Chromosome. From experience, I know rage (and wanting revenge) is a reaction to a burn job, but usually it burns itself out over time. These guys get permanently stuck at that point.

    I have mixed feelings about this really. There are some people who do get burned and they don’t work through their anger in a healthy way, sure. Many get permanently stuck.

    However. For many, their anger is not actually a rational response to the offense. Look at your Elliot Rodgers. His response was to ‘rejection’. That alone would be irrational (and this is the point where many incel types are stuck), but he took it further in that he was angry at rejection from women he NEVER Approached. And if you dig into so many of the truly violent mens origins, they themselves were the ones to be violent and controlling with women in their lives, so for those women to leave is entirely rational and result of their own actions.

    I think you have a mixed bag of these angry, violent men who, quite contrary to your theory, were actually the aggressors themselves spreading their hatred to men (and lets be honest, in many cases to teenage boys with zero experience with actual women) who have some issues with either being burned or simply poor self esteem. And the whole thing is mixing and bubbling into an angry, dangerous cauldron. It needs to stop, but I don’t know where to even began to do that.

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  39. And look, some dude treated me poorly and I went to visit a friend, logged a list of red flags to look for, and moved on. I didn’t start an I hate men cult. So I don’t really accept that as an excuse.

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  40. N48,
    Thank-you for your kind words; they are so appreciated and you made my whole day. I have been reflecting too, (Kathi….the word “reflection” is a great one to ponder) and it is possible that some word or sentence stated in one of my responses, may have triggered you as I know this concept all too well. Triggering can bring out the beast in all of us, whether believers or unbelievers, for we each have a life story with a past history in which emotions can become a volcano.

    If I have said something in which you view as insulting and hurtful, I do apologize for my words in which I take full responsibility for, and would ask your forgiveness here, publicly. Jesus does tell us how to use our tongues, and I am not always the most vibrant bloom in the flower patch, so I need to remember His Ways when our Scriptures state that a “kind word turns away wrath.”

    Although I am not of the complementarian/patriarchy camp, I have learned much from folks like yourself, KAS, Cindy Burrell (I purchased and read her book, finding it quite healing and helpful), and others who believe that way of life is for them. And to tell you the truth N48, I believe that we can be brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus for ultimately, at the end of the day, our faith is more about Him and what He has done for us on the cross, and even that makes me tear up just pondering that scene.

    Oh, what a wonderful LORD and Savior we have! 🙂

    Blessings over your day, N48.

    Liked by 1 person

  41. HUG raises a good point:
    I have long believed that a LOT of the Mens’ Rights/Manosphere types got burned REAL bad by a woman in their past and are taking it out against anyone/anything without a Y Chromosome. From experience, I know rage (and wanting revenge) is a reaction to a burn job, but usually it burns itself out over time. These guys get permanently stuck at that point.

    Necron48 shared that he was abused by a woman. And now he views women as:

    -Women are NOT image bearers of God
    -Women are men’s property
    -Women are decreed by the highest power in the universe, namely God Almighty, to be the property of their husbands, that is God’s authoritative wish for women
    -The earth is literally rebelling and violently resisting female domination
    -Women were created for MEN, not the other way around, women are our helpmeets, they are NOT equal to us
    -Women are supposed to integrate into OUR lives, we don’t integrate into a woman’s life, women are to serve us
    -Since women are prone to deception it is foolish to heed the words of your wife
    -Women feel more secure knowing they belong to a superior authority
    -You are following the Spirit of Jezebel, and you resent all forms of male power and authority.-God help the poor man who would be foolish enough to marry you.
    -What you are is a disobedient rebel, making excuses for your sin
    -Wicked women infected with the spirit of Jezebel

    Necron48, you’ve been given important feedback about your beliefs and how you treat women. You are the only one here with these harmful views. Do you see how the pain you incurred may have impacted your reasoning skills? The women here don’t hate men. They hate being treated like property. They don’t like being treated like children, or that their voice is less than a man’s voice. We are created in the image of God. I highly encourage you to get therapy.

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  42. @ClockworkAngel:

    Ironically, the same complementarians rejoice whenever a story surfaces of some woman in an Islamic country receiving the Gospel and then telling her husband all about it, and converting him to Christianity. When the Gospel spreads this way, it’s suddenly a miracle of God.

    Maybe they only acknowledge it as “a miracle of God” when the MALE gets converted?

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  43. N48 – I had perhaps a similar experience. When I was in college, there were some amazing Christian women from my denomination. I hung out with them whenever I could, which was generally at lunchtime. Many(!) months later I got a letter stuff in my mailbox from one of these amazing Christian women. It said I was arrogant and disrespectful and they didn’t like hanging out with me and they tried to hint by talking about what they thought would be uncomfortable girl-talk topics, like “how many kids do you want”, but I didn’t get the hint. As the final straw they were in the kindest, Christian-like way they could think of, telling me to get lost. [Did I say that my former church was abysmal at teaching communication skills?]

    It really sent me into a tailspin, because these were people I greatly admired and respected. I tried to write a response many times, but it just got angrier and angrier, and finally I decided that, if the best women my denomination had to offer treated me like crap, that I would have no part in it. [I did leave that denomination many years later, but for the RIGHT reasons] There was a church conference that summer, and I went with that enormous chip on my shoulder which had expanded because I started seeing evil patterns wherever I looked. God put the right people in the right places there that convinced me that there still were good people in that church. I still think it was a horrible way to tell me they needed their space, but we were all pretty immature at that point.

    What I’m saying, though, is that I could have ended up in the same sort of place – I WOULD have ended up in the same place of believing evil about everyone in that church. Although that experience pretty much burned any relational bridges, I started to see how they were trapped by the same wrong teaching I was – where offenses were supposed to be “ignored/covered over in grace”… until they became so overwhelming that all the pent-up nastiness just had to spill out. Instead, I’m sure that it could have been resolved well if it was dealt with much earlier on.

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  44. Roscuro (at March 15, 2019 at 7:52 AM) said,
    “No one has ever made a fuss about Eowyn’s role as a Shield Maiden of Rohan being some feminist conspiracy.”
    — end quote —

    This is one of the things I kind of touched on in a post on my blog the other day (“So Really, Complementarians Would Rather Little Girls Emulate Male Actors as Male Characters than Women Actors Who Are In Women’s Roles – Very Strange</>”)

    While most super hero and action movies in years past had male leads, there were occasionally female leads, such as Princess Leia, but there were no outraged groups of fan boys screaming and yelling in the 1970s or 80s about the rare female characters such as her.

    Maybe because there was no social media back then?

    Or, there’s something going on in American society that may be driving this, but in the last five years, it’s became a phenomenon for angry, sexist men on line to start griping about women and women in lead roles every single time before a new female- character- led movie is about to come out.

    Last Jedi, Ghostbusters Answer the Call, Captain Marvel (I feel like I’m forgetting one.), have all received sexist rage from fuming incels, MRAs, MGTOWS, and assorted misogynists.

    But the women- character -led movies are selling lots of tickets:

    _Female-Led Movies Have Outperformed Male-Led Movies for the Last Three Years_

    _Captain Marvel Is Highest Ever Grossing Movie With a Female Lead_

    Marvel is supposed to be releasing a stand-alone Black Widow (woman spy/ fighter character) movie. And I can only assume that when that one is released that Morse will write another sexist essay denouncing it.

    I’m tired of all the pre-release sexist bashing of these things, and I’m oh so tired of the complementarian writers out there using almost every new woman-led movie (especially one where the woman is a superhero or independent) as an excuse to bash women somemore, and to try to en-force out-dated gender stereotypes.

    I don’t recall complementarians getting in an uproar over 1990s or early 2000s movies such as the suspense / thriller / ghost movie “What Lies Beneath,” where a wife character finds her husband had an affair, killed his mistress, is trying to kill her too, yet the wife fights back and wins against the husband.

    There was no out-rage against that movie back then, yet, complementarian outrage and offense has increased in the last few years, too, writing op-eds on Rey from Star Wars and now Captain Marvel.

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  45. I left a post above for Roscuro about women in movies.
    I think it’s in moderation because I put three links in it.

    Anyway. I was bullied and/or used, manipulated, and abused by men and women over my life, but the abuse I incurred by men (like by my ex fiance) didn’t turn me into a man-hater.

    I don’t run around on FemaleGTOW, Female Incels, or WRA (women’s rights) sites screaming about how we should have a Matriarchy in place, where women should rule men, men should realize they are property of women, etc.

    I do rant against male-on-female sexism, because I hate that, but I don’t hate all men individually.

    (I was also done wrong by women over my life. Out of everyone in my life the person I hate most was a woman boss I had.)

    I have an older sister who verbally abused me from the time I was a kid until now.
    When I confronted her on it a few years ago, instead of apologizing, one thing she did was play the “Pity Me, My Life is So Difficult, I am only abusing you because I am under stress” card. (The rest of the time, she just screamed at me more.)

    My mother used to ask me to excuse my sister’s verbal abuse on those grounds – ‘just sit there and permit it, don’t stand up for yourself, the poor dear is only putting you down all the time and screaming insult and profanity and physical threats at you because she’s under stress.’

    I’ve read a lot of books by now by therapists and psychiatrists that say no, you should not just sit there and passively endure abuse and also dismiss it because the person was hurt himself in the past, and they are telling you that is why they are acting that way.

    I’m empathetic with anyone who has been hurt by someone else in their past, but I’ve had too many people use that as an excuse, (including my sister), to abuse me, so I stopped accepting that as an excuse a few years back. Even people who have been hurt by others need to accept responsibility for their actions.

    When I get stressed or angry, I go on walks or jogs, I have never taken it out on my sister.

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  46. I’m sure that it could have been resolved well if it was dealt with much earlier on.

    This is a communication lesson that even in adulthood is somewhat hard to put in place! Problems that are ignored fester. Better to address them directly and head on, even if it’s hard. Sigh.

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  47. @Lea:

    For many, their anger is not actually a rational response to the offense. Look at your Elliot Rodgers. His response was to ‘rejection’. That alone would be irrational (and this is the point where many incel types are stuck), but he took it further in that he was angry at rejection from women he NEVER Approached.

    Not “my” Elliot Rodgers. i.e. The Santa Barbara Shooter, now known as “SAINT Elliot” among all the Incel, Manosphere, and other He-Man Woman-Hater online echo chambers. A Hollywood Highborn rich kid who left behind a body count, a very self-righteous online Manifesto, and hundreds to thousands of Selfies Selfies Selfies Selfies. (And the last explains a lot. His parents came in for a lot of hassle when he pulled off his “do-it-yourself Reality Show”, but they knew he was messed up and were getting him what help they could; it didn’t take.)

    And this was my take on it during his 15 Minutes of Fame, which I still hold to:

    (rant)

    By the basic definition, I am an InCel — “Involuntary Celibate”, an aging virgin. You know what I did, Elliot? I GOT MYSELF A LIFE. A LIFE THAT DOESN’T DEPEND ON PERFECT 10s CONSTANTLY THROWING THEMSELVES ON ME. Yes, it is a bummer, not being attractive to women. Yes, it is a bummer being the one guy in “the Cal Poly Gang” who never married, especially when all the others (Jim & Cindy, Bob & “Nutsy” Nancy, Paul & Janet, Ted the Locksmith and his wife whose name I can’t remember after all these years) went on to have strong, stable, and happy marriages. To this day I wish things had worked out between Ann & me all those years ago, but they didn’t. Yes, I’m as InCel as you, for a much longer time. BUT I DIDN’T GO ON A REVENGE KILLING SPREE! A TEMPER TANTRUM WITH A BODY COUNT! And I sure as hell didn’t ventilate with the most smug self-righteous “See What You Made Me Do” Manifesto!

    (end rant)

    When you get to my age and have seen “The dog return to its vomit, The sow return to her mire, And the burnt fool’s bandaged finger go right back into the fire” time and time again, the “urge to choke the Stupid out of people” can just get overwhelming.

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  48. (Part 1)
    Regarding the talk above about women supposedly liking to date serial killers or jerks.

    This one has always annoyed me, because I’ve always been attracted to the Clark Kent (aka Superman) type of guy.

    I do NOT like “bad boys,” and I detest arrogant swagger in men. I try to avoid them, I don’t run into their arms or flirt with them. .

    I like Dudley DoRight. I like the guy who helps rescue a kitten from a tree for a little girl. That kind of dude. And they are very, very difficult to find.

    My sister set me up on a blind date years ago with a dude who saw my photo at her house, he wanted to date me. I told her No, she forced me to, and the guy was very arrogant. He was cute as all get out, very wealthy family, went on to be richy rich, but he was a jerk. He was a condescending, rude, jerk, which repelled me. It did not attract me to him.

    I have always been attracted to grown men who are modest, down to earth, sweet, easy to talk to, NON-self absorbed, guys I can joke around with.

    I like grown “Boy Scouts,” the sort of guy who will help a little old granny lady cross the street or mow her lawn for free because he knows she’s frail and a widow.

    I do NOT like, nor have I ever liked, “Joe Cool bad boy on his motorbike.” I certainly do NOT like or want to date men who are abusive in any way (verbally, physically, financially).

    So I do wish this gender stereotype about women liking to date jerks would finally die already.

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  49. @Daisy:

    I don’t run around on FemaleGTOW, Female Incels, or WRA (women’s rights) sites screaming about how we should have a Matriarchy in place, where women should rule men, men should realize they are property of women, etc.

    Daisy, today is an Age of Extremes, with X-Treme sites & attitudes like you described above (both male & female) trying to become The New Normal. And the ease in communications with Social Media(TM) has made it real easy for the X-Treme Crazies to link up and try to achieve critical mass.

    And as I learned in Furry Fandom, Loud Crazies have a way of defining the public face and public image of a group or movement. Because they have NO life to take time and/or energy away from their obsession, said Loud Crazies can dedicate ALL their time and energy to The Cause, whatever that Cause may be.

    Liked by 1 person

  50. Pick Up Artist sketch, from Saturday Night LIve

    In the sketch, women try typical male PUA advice on men in a bar, but this advice is given from a woman coach:
    (_You Tube video SNL skit_):

    See how stupid this behavior is and attitudes are when the biological sexes are flipped, and women try using the sexist, awful advice men give to each other on how to flirt with women to try to “pick up” men?

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  51. @Daisy:

    I do NOT like “bad boys,” and I detest arrogant swagger in men. I try to avoid them, I don’t run into their arms or flirt with them.

    I know this is a known pathology with some women, but I don’t remember the formal name. Peaks in the middle school years, but most (hopefully) grow out of it. And those that don’t tend to keep a higher profile.

    These days when I see that pathology in action, my go-to line is “Another Harley Quinn found her Joker.” (Any DC Comics fan will recognize the reference “Harley Quinn Syndrome”.)

    Liked by 1 person

  52. Not “my” Elliot Rodgers. i.e. The Santa Barbara Shooter, now known as “SAINT Elliot” among all the Incel, Manosphere, and other He-Man Woman-Hater online echo chambers.

    I meant something more along the lines of ‘your [generic, not you: HUG] Elliot Rodger’s types. No association with you meant, however he is very much associated with the darker corners of the MRA internets.

    I will say, my problem with the extremes is that they are spilling over into real life, and real violence, with alarming frequency. It is necessary to pushback.

    As for this:

    By the basic definition, I am an InCel — “Involuntary Celibate”

    I would say that the definition and coalition of people who call themselves by that term has morphed far from any innocent origins that I would have associated with you.

    Loneliness, otoh, is a thing everyone understands, because we have all been lonely, or disappointed, or rejected at one point or another. The only way out is through sometimes.

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  53. (Part 2a)
    Regarding the talk above about women supposedly liking to date serial killers or jerks. (continued.)

    Can we flip the biological sexes around here?
    I’ve watched enough hours of True Crime network programing to anecdotally see that some women are serial killers, rapists, or one-time murderers.

    On a lot of these programs, a wife will bump off her husband for money or just out of spite or boredom.
    One show on that network is about dating (or married) couples who go on raping or killing sprees.

    There was a very famous case from Canada over ten years ago of a lady who helped her boyfriend rape her own sister. (The sister died from them drugging her, I think it was an accidental killing.)

    There was another episode about a teen couple where both the girl and the boy went around the country and they kidnapped, stole from, and killed elderly victims.

    I could go on with other examples. So.
    Why do the men who get outraged at women and see the examples like that of men who date lady killers never ask,
    “Why do some men date and marry jerky women?”

    As a teen, I used to have one lady co-worker around my age, or early 20s, who was engaged to this super sweet guy.
    This guy, her fiance, would come in to the store every so often to see her, and while waiting, he and I would chit chat. He was truly a sweetheart.

    But this coworker of mine to whom this guy was engaged was arrogant to everyone, she was mean to him to his face, and behind his back, she’d complain about him to me all the time.
    I could not figure out why such a doll would want to be engaged to a tool like her, but it happens.

    And the movie “Mean Girls” is more accurate than you might think.
    There are girls and women who are obnoxious, rude, selfish, and arrogant and they bully others, but they still have a lot of friends, dates, and boyfriends. And recall in that movie how the top snobby girl had the super sweet boyfriend. That happens in real life…

    But MGTOW, Incels, MRAs, etc, never, ever ask, “Why do mean girls keep getting dates and boyfriends?”

    (continued in part 2b)

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  54. Elliot Rodgers inspired a copycat in Toronto, Canada last year, in a horrific attack driving a van into pedestrians that left ten people dead and 13 others injured: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-van-attack-driver-profile-alek-minassian-1.4632435
    The way the Incel internet sites breed killers is a horrible illustration of the Proverb (22:24): “Make no friendship with an angry man; and with a furious man thou shalt not go; lest thou learn his ways, and get a snare to thy soul.”

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  55. Daisy, the case in Canada you are referring to involved a man who was a serial killer, and also brutally killed two other young women deliberately with the knowledge and assistance of his wife. She became an informant to the police, helping them to get the evidence (the killer had taped his murders) and got a lighter sentence as a result. At her trial, she tried to plead that she had been forced to assist by her husband, but the evidence was overwhelming that she had never been coerced. It was a horrible case and left the entire nation in shock.

    Liked by 1 person

  56. (Part 2b.)

    I was skimming over that “Christian MRA blog” the other day, and thinking about some comment that guy from this blog screamed at me here or at my blog yesterday.

    As I alluded yesterday, all these “perpetually angry at women” men say, they claim, they want the good girl, chaste girl, who has traditional values. But do they really? I don’t think they do.

    I’m sexually abstinent, so I don’t sleep around. I’ve been conservative my whole life, never a liberal (some of these MRA type men really hate liberals).

    I was the super goody goody Christian girl, I was very sweet, I was deferential, loving, I used to be submissive to men (I used to be a Christian Gender Complementarian until I got to around age 35).

    I was just the type of gal these horrible Christian MRAs / Incels, etc, say they want to date and marry, but did any of them ever date or marry me?

    Nope.
    (Of course, in light of their sexist attitudes, I am glad I never married one.)

    But they run about on their blogs saying the reason women like me never marry is because we are man-hating feminists (I’ve never identified as feminist), we are liberals (I’ve been a conservative since my teens), and we slept around with so many men (I’m still a virgin).

    I was all the things they say they want in a woman, but it didn’t get me marriage.

    You can follow everyone’s dating advice, and rules on how to get a mate, whether from your denomination, your granny, your best friend, from a secular relationship magazine, and still remain single.
    Following rules or being a “certain type” isn’t a guarantee you’re going to get a partner.

    Evangelicals act like if you just follow their rules and pray, you will get a spouse. The MRA / Incel guys act like if women are just sweet, modest, and submissive, they’ll get a spouse. But life doesn’t work out that way.
    (continued in 2c)

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  57. (part 2c
    I also suspect that the MRA types have incredibly unrealistic relationship goals, desires, and mate criteria.
    They all want a sweet, kind, gracious, perpetual 20 something year old, buxom, submissive, Victoria Secret model, even though they themselves are 50 years old, flabby, gross, obnoxious, rude, and sexist.

    I have a link about this very situation, let me see if I can find it. That link:
    _Teacher Wants Female Companionship_, on Philly Inquirer site, Dear Abby column

    To offer a paraphrase of what the dude says in the letter:
    Dude is 70 years old, writes to Abby to say he’s lonely, but he’s poor, and he refuses to date women his age, he basically only wants to date 20 something year old hotties who are independently wealthy, but they are not attracted to him,
    and now, he’s super lonely.
    How can he get 20 year old super rich Playboy models to date him??.

    Actual line from his letter:
    “I’m not attracted to women my age, and I don’t see younger women being attracted to an overweight old guy who isn’t even scraping by on Social Security. Dating services don’t screen their members. Is there a solution for this problem?”

    Someone on another site where I was lurking months ago left a comment under a letter like that one time, and she said she used to have an Uncle just like that.

    She said her Uncle was super lonely, wanted a wife, but the dude refused, at every age he was (in his 30s, 40s, older), to date women over 35 years of age and who didn’t look like fashion models.

    So, her Uncle, she said, died in his 80s never having married, and even in his 80s, he would get all bitter and complain and wonder why nice, attractive ladies never wanted him.

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  58. breed killers

    This. This is the thing I worry about. Especially after the attack in NZ yesterday.

    Ideas have consequences. People need to step back and take a long, hard look at the stories they’re telling and the communities they are cultivating.

    And I would add the guy who shot up a yoga studio to the list, who had previously been arrested for grabbing women (with charges dropped) and then hired to teach middle schoolers who iirc were creeped out and I think someone reported him for that but I couldn’t find that article. People need to take these offenses a lot more seriously, and misogyny a lot more seriously and domestic violence and rape more seriously.

    https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-florida-yoga-shooter-20181103-story.html

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  59. ROSCURO, I have a post for you where I talked about movies, but it’s still sitting in moderation several posts above.
    Maybe if you check back later today or this evening, it will be published (I hope).

    Roscuro said,
    Elliot Rodgers inspired a copycat in Toronto, Canada last year, in a horrific attack driving a van into pedestrians that left ten people dead and 13 others injured:
    — end quotes —

    Yes, there have been several of these guys over the years.

    If you do a google search for the names Ben Moynihan (he’s in the UK) and Chris Harper Mercer, you’ll find they killed / injured women, or tried to, because they felt entitled to dates, women, and sex, but were virgins / single.

    From Vox, (Source):

    Before Elliot Rodger, who killed six people and himself in Isla Vista, California, on Friday night, there was George Sodini.
    In 2009, Sodini walked into an aerobics class filled with women at a Pittsburgh-area gym and opened fire.
    A suicide note in the gym bag pointed investigators to a website with a litany of complaints: Sodini was frustrated and angry that he wasn’t dating or sleeping with women, and he shot three people and injured six others as revenge.

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  60. @Sergius Martin-George

    I was quoting how someone wrote it, I had no idea it meant “churchian”.

    I can’t stand Dalrock, and I’ve exposed him on my blog.

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  61. @Katy

    You have absolutely NOTHING to apologize for. I was the one out of line, and if I was triggered, it was nothing what you may have said. No words can describe how touched I am by your words, and how pleasant it is to talk with you, You literally radiate warmth and compassion and understanding.

    I truly wish you have the best day ever, and lots of love and hugs.
    God bless!!

    Like

  62. @Lea:

    I will say, my problem with the extremes is that they are spilling over into real life, and real violence, with alarming frequency.

    That is because we are living in an Age of Extremes.
    Where “Batshit Crazy” Extremism is becoming The New Normal.
    Compounded by Social Media making it easier and easier to link up with like-minded Extremist Crazies and achieve Critical Mass.

    In Strauss & Howe’s theory of cyclical generation patterns, we have an Idealist Gen (who are naturally prone to extremism) not only in power, but starting to age out of power. Knowing the Time Is Short (and getting shorter) to achieve their Perfect Ideological Utopia…

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  63. @Julie Anne

    “Do you see how the pain you incurred may have impacted your reasoning skills?”

    Yes I do, and yes it has.

    ” The women here don’t hate men”

    Hard to quantify that without knowing their hearts. I know Kathi and Katy don’t hate men, I’m pretty sure about that.

    “They hate being treated like property”

    We’re living in the West, with America in particular being the most gynocentric nation on earth, that has given more rights to women than any other group that I know of. More funding than men, more health care, less jail time compared to men for the same crime, no fault divorce, divorce raping men in the court system which is inherently biased towards women, alimony laws which are evil and unjust. So you were saying about women not being treated like property?? I think you must be talking about women living in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Muslim countries that institute Sharia Law which strip women of all their rights, but living in America, you women have it easy.

    “They don’t like being treated like children”

    Then they need to stop acting like children (I’m talking about the uncontrolled women here having violent temper tantrums and NOT INDICTING ALL WOMEN), and make sure we hold women accountable for their actions and sins, instead of blaming men for everything.

    “or that their voice is less than a man’s voice”

    You must be talking about Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran again?…….I don’t see any woman’s voice being less important, or carry less weight than a man’s, well not in the West anyway. Women are CEO’s, Prime Ministers, Leaders, they own their own property, own businesses and are strong and independent. Women outstrip a man by an 80/20 ratio in campus where they predominate and use their voice quite frequently. Men are increasingly being marginalized in all areas of society while women are making huge leaps and bounds. Women also initiate 80% of all divorces according to State Justice Department stats….you were saying that a woman’s voice is less than a man’s?.

    “We are created in the image of God”

    Even if I was to concede that point, and it’s a big IF, how does that absolve women of their rights and duties in their respective gender roles that God outlined for them in his Word?. Just because men and women have different roles, it does not mean that women are less important than men….Women are vital, and special unique creatures with amazing capabilities and gifts that ALL MEN need. We are commanded to LOVE our wives as much as we love our own flesh, we are to be gentle with them and even die for them, so I don’t see how women end up feeling so undervalued just because some preacher defends the patriarchal viewpoint?

    ” I highly encourage you to get therapy”

    NO………I will not do that. Am I allowed to say no to you?. What I need to do is take my anger issues to the LORD and seek HIS leading and guidance for my lack of self control. I came into this thread like a mad bull in a china shop, and it was extremely sinful the way I have behaved. Since that time, I have been shown amazing grace and kindness from Kathi and Katy. These women are beautiful in spirit and I will honor them and treat them with the utmost respect and kindness. These 2 women alone have done much to temper my extreme views. They truly reflect the Spirit of Christ, and women everywhere can learn much from them.

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  64. @Mark

    Thank you Mark, your comment was very uplifting. I do apologize for us getting off on the wrong foot together, LOL. I guess in a lot of ways I’m still stuck in the same place you were. I have to move forward and not let my anger best me all the time!

    “much anger in him….like his father” lol
    “you want this?……yesss, the anger is swelling in you now, give in to your hate” haha.

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  65. @Daisy:

    I also suspect that the MRA types have incredibly unrealistic relationship goals, desires, and mate criteria.

    They all want a sweet, kind, gracious, perpetual 20 something year old, buxom, submissive, Victoria Secret model, even though they themselves are 50 years old, flabby, gross, obnoxious, rude, and sexist.

    Ain’t just the MRA types, Daisy.
    I’ve seen “incredibly unrealistic relationship goals, desires, and mate criteria” from both men & women of all ages (though mostly way younger than the example you cited).

    The example that comes to mind are the “What I’m Like” and “What I Want” sections on dating service questionnaires/profiles. (A few years after my breakup with Ann, I tried the dating service route. Total waste of money. Especially the Christian(TM) dating services.) The ones I remember the best were the ones from women in Christian Dating services; just as unrealistic as the example you cited but with a Christianese spin: A Christianese Edward Cullen with Shekinah Sparkles, a perfect Uber-Christian so Uber-Spiritual that even Christ Himself would have fallen short; interested only in Scripture and Witnessing and Prayer. (i.e. the exact same interests as in the “What I’m Like” section.) All totally Non-Negotiable.

    (Aside: I was in my early to mid-30s at the time, and was looking for late 20s to mid-30s.)

    In retrospect, what these Christian single females were looking for (and how well mortal me measured up) reminded me of this Twilight filksong:

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  66. divorce raping men

    This phrasing is deeply offensive and shows exactly who you’ve been listening to. For you to pretend like women you don’t know may or may not hate men when you are talking like you’ve been hanging out in the biggest woman hating corners of the internet is a bit much.

    As I said, you really need to stop reading what you’re reading because it’s warping your brain. It’s spills out all over your comments.

    Liked by 1 person

  67. I’m talking about the uncontrolled women here having violent temper tantrums

    This is ludicrous. Perhaps you missed the discussion of men in REAL LIFE having literal violent temper tantrums? If so you should read up. Because they are reading the things you’ve been reading and thinking the things you’ve been thinking.

    If you have any decency inside of you, and I hope you do, you need to think about this seriously.

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  68. @Daisy

    How do you do that! how do you make blue bold type in WordPress? I think it’s pretty cool.

    I think the reason complementarians hate Captain Marvel so much is because of Brie Larson shooting her mouth so much pre release of the film where she repeatedly bashed men, denigrated them in the press, and even had the gall to say that “white men” are not welcome to see her movie. I wonder how it would go down if a male actor said that about women?

    Also, complementarians hate her because Captain Marvel is going to be used to destroy Thanos, and they have made CM more powerful than any other Marvel character, including Thor and the Hulk…..This is so ridiculous to be beyond words, more powerful than Thor?, what a joke. Even Scarlet Witch could dispatch Captain Marvel very easily, yet they’ve made this new character who is very new to the MCU, has NEVER been in any Marvel movie and they are going to use her in Avengers:Endgame and sideline Black Widow, Thor, Iron Man etc

    Also, complementarians rightfully hate Brie Larson and Captain Marvel because of once again, the stupid, moronic decision to make her character all about gender, and identity politics, and I’m a woman hear me roar. Leave your garbage leftist crap out of our movies, we go there to forget about the real world, not have feminism and politics shoved down our throats

    Gal Gadot a.k.a Wonder Woman didn’t shove identity politics down our throats, she was lovely, powerful and didn’t make it about her gender. She is the “true” Captain Marvel if you ask me, and a far better role model than Brie Larson will ever be.

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  69. @HUG, “In Strauss & Howe’s theory of cyclical generation patterns, we have an Idealist Gen (who are naturally prone to extremism) not only in power, but starting to age out of power. Knowing the Time Is Short (and getting shorter) to achieve their Perfect Ideological Utopia…”

    There is a field, called System Dynamics, which tries to explain human systemic behavior in terms of feedback loops. Most of the tragic mistakes involve people turning a dial thinking that they are doing one thing, but in the complex feedback it actually ends up doing something else completely.

    So, in our society, we have this seeming problem of collective interest and action. Psychologists and media research types discovered a dial of making everything seem like a crisis. That worked pretty well for awhile, but now that EVERYTHING IS A FREAKING CRISIS, people have tuned out. Advertising doesn’t work, TV news is losing viewership, someone shooting up someplace might catch some brief attention. At some point people’s brains just switched off to the 24/7 crisis news network and now the crisis is getting people to pay attention at all.

    Our town’s accident rate has skyrocketed? Why? People aren’t paying attention anymore.

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  70. HUG said,
    “The example that comes to mind are the “What I’m Like” and “What I Want” sections on dating service questionnaires/profiles.”
    — end quotes —

    Speaking of dating sites.
    Almost everyone on dating sites claims to like “long romantic walks on the beach.” That has become such a cliche’.

    On dating sites, a lot of men of all ages, even tubby out of shape guys who have all sorts of issues, feel entitled to the 20 something Victoria Secret Model who will cater to their every whim.

    When I was actively participating on dating sites (in my mid to late 30s), that was when I was into the whole “equally yoked’ teaching, so I really only checked out self identifying Christian men.

    As I’ve told you before, most all the “Christian” men on those sites I ran into had vulgar jokes in their profiles, stated their sexual desires and preferences openly on their profile, or within the initial contact stages on these sites.
    That was all a huge, huge turn off to me.

    I’d sometimes see self identifying atheist men, agnostics, or liberal guys on those sites acting more like gentlemen on the dating sites than the Christians or Republicans / conservatives.
    (And I was a Republican then, and am still conservative.)

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  71. @Lea

    Are you seriously going to come in here and say with a straight face that men don’t get annihilated in the divorce courts?
    The term “divorce rape” is not mine, but it perfectly describes what happens to MOST men whenever there is a divorce, especially in America. I’m sorry if that offends you, but that is the reality men face every day. Where is YOUR compassion for the men who get screwed over like this?, it seems you are more concerned with the term “divorce rape” than actually having any empathy for MEN.

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  72. Back to the Greg Morse essay that started all this thread.

    Yes, there’s been a recent upswing in Hollywood for “Strong Women” characters. And I’ve heard a LOT of criticism and scrutiny about it online, podcasts, essays, YouTube videos.

    Remember my comment above about “just enough truth so they swallow the Big Lie”? Well there is a truth there — in the effort to show Strong Women characters, a lot of writers and filmmakers have flipped too far in the opposite direction, with Strong Women DONE BADLY.

    Badly as in making the only part of the character “Being STRONG”. And all too often defining “STRONG” as one-dimensional Hyper-Masculinity in a female character. As in She’s Tough, She’s Badass, she outmatches/outsmarts/out-machos every man around her, but there’s nothing else to her personality. “She”s a Rule 63 genderflip of the male leads in “Triple Frontier”. As one-dimensional as any weak frou-frou bimbo character, except made of tungsten tool steel instead of wet cardboard.

    Even when she’s the “Smurfette” — the only female main character in an otherwise all-male team. (In this case, she can beat them all up at once.) Above and beyond even the exaggeration and simplification of pulp & comics hero types.

    And there are some fans (including X-Treme feminists — genderflips of their opponents) who like it that way. (Another example of Ideological Propaganda trumping storytelling.)

    My foray into comics fandom was 30-40 years ago, so I’m not up on the current trends. Especially in mainstream superhero comics. (Except that Marvel has a better recent track record than DC when it comes to cinematic adaptations, the main exception being attempts to film Fantastic Four.)

    The example I’m thinking of (from online essays on the subject) is the Marvel Cinematic version of Black Widow, a type example of the “Ubermensch” sub-type of superhero — a highly-talented-to-the-max, highly-trained-to-the-max individual without intrinsic superpowers. Also as I understand it, her backstory is that of a highly-trained assassin, to the point her (presumably male) handlers even forced a hysterctomy to leave nothing feminine to interfere with her design purpose. (I think forced hysterectomy would qualify as abuse.)

    Well, Black Widow “went rogue” from her agency and ended up as a superhero(ine) whose training and attitude puts her solidly in the “Strong Woman” category. Yet I understand at one point she grieves over what was done to her; part of her wishes she could settle down and become a mother, but the abovementioned abuse has forever closed that future to her. So she (understandably) grieves over it. In making her the perfect Ubermensch “operative”, her handlers/abusers literally amputated the most female of organs.(The equivalent of castrating/emasculating a male character.)

    And this caused an uproar in both fandom and criticism. Not over what was done to her, but that a “Strong Woman” character like Black Widow did grieve over what was done to create her. THAT is part of what I mean about wanting a “Strong Woman Hero(ine) done Badly”. Because Black Widow was done as a Woman with some depth, not just “Strong”.

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  73. @Mark:

    Psychologists and media research types discovered a dial of making everything seem like a crisis. That worked pretty well for awhile, but now that EVERYTHING IS A FREAKING CRISIS, people have tuned out.

    “When Everybody is Special, then NOBODY can be Special.”
    — Syndrome, the villain from the original The Incredibles

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  74. @Lea

    “This is ludicrous. Perhaps you missed the discussion of men in REAL LIFE having literal violent temper tantrums?”

    NO…….not at all, but I’m not so foolish as to come to the conclusion that just because men have temper tantrums (and they do), therefore we should ignore that women do as well. In fact according to stats, women initiate MOST of all domestic violence incidences. Do you want a source for that?, no less than Erin Pizzey, the founder of woman’s shelters.

    “If you have any decency inside of you, and I hope you do, you need to think about this seriously”

    Attempting to shame me, or guilt me won’t work, just thought I would let you know. I have thought about it seriously, and have experienced women’s anger first hand. Any cursory YouTube search will show tens of thousands of examples of women being out of control, violently attacking men, instigating attacks and violence etc…..You truly have to be blind to not see that

    Do men act violent? yes of course they do, and no decent man will justify a man’s sinful anger and violence, but please, please do not deny that the female species is equally culpable of extreme anger and violence.

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  75. N48 said:

    Are you seriously going to come in here and say with a straight face that men don’t get annihilated in the divorce courts?
    The term “divorce rape” is not mine, but it perfectly describes what happens to MOST men whenever there is a divorce, especially in America.

    Please back this up. Where is the proof? BTW, the divorce rape term is highly offensive. To equate what some men experience in the court process with real abusive rape is inappropriate. Please don’t use that term here, there are too many survivors.

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  76. @Necron48: Trying to answer point by point: “So you were saying about women not being treated like property??” and so on

    I think we are starting to realize with racism that “equal rights” does not equate to equal treatment. There are some compelling statistics that suggest that having black skin makes you more likely to be convicted, more likely to get a longer sentence, more likely to get shot by police, less likely to get a good job, and less likely to be paid what white males are paid for that same job. Similar things apply to women, even in the US where we’ve come a long way. There are compelling statistics that women are “encouraged” to seek soft-skilled, lower-paid jobs like social workers, sales, teachers, cosmetologists, nurses, and are “discouraged” from jobs like STEM, business management, construction and the like.

    When it comes to property, in complementarian/patriarchal circles (and this happens to men, too) those who are expected to take subservient roles are also conditioned to take those roles. I was in an authoritarian church, and they beat the message of worthlessness (disguised as “Total Depravity”) into the congregants, with the expectation that if we recognized our “worthlessness” we would be more accepting of domineering and control from the leadership. In the same way, women are being taught in many, if not most, churches and in our society that they do not have value – especially that they do not have value outside of their traditional roles of wife, mother, housekeeper. There’s much more to it, but that’s a bit of how it works.

    “What I need to do is take my anger issues to the LORD and seek HIS leading and guidance for my lack of self control.”

    Yes, absolutely, but there’s more. Fast forward many years. I was being abused by my church leadership. I was smart, I was well-connected, I knew the Bible inside and out, but… I didn’t share my local church’s view on the role of women in church. They wanted to exclude women as much as possible from church roles, and I wanted to include women (I was still complementarian, so not looking for women elders or pastors). So, they had a problem, and the solution was to find ways here and there to rip me to shreds in front of the church. Pretty much every time I spoke up or had an idea, it was the stupidest and worst idea anyone had ever had in the history of the church. I knew I wasn’t happy, but I didn’t even think of leaving until they started mistreating my wife and children. We left and found another local church in the same denomination, and they treated me pretty much the same. Then one day, it dawned on me in a sermon on “mother” church that if the church, our mother abused us, that we would see similar signs as if we were abused by our parents. That was another tailspin, and I ended up walking out of that denomination, that I was born and raised in.

    I grew a bit, but then stalled. (Incidentally, it was the first time I ever posted here, when I had been stalled for awhile). It wasn’t until my pastor recommended a local Christian counselor that I got un-stalled for a bit. One of the things she did that was really powerful was let me call my experience “ABUSE” – my family rejected the concept of abuse outright, but she also gave me some tools and a bit of accountability.

    This wasn’t INSTEAD of seeking God, but one of the problems in growing up in an abusive environment is that my view of God was also abusive, and so was the Bible. I’m still, a few years later, still really struggling to understand HOW to read the Bible without the abusive message seeping in.

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  77. Quoting an interview with Erin Pizzey: “If you come from a dysfunctional, violent and sexually abusive family, how do you learn? Therefore, domestic violence can’t be a gender issue, it can’t be just men, because we girls – and I was from one of those families – are just as badly affected.” So women are as violent as men? “Well, we tend to implode, our violence is turned in on ourselves or is covert – men explode and hurt others.” So it’s not exactly the same? “It’s violence,” Pizzey says stubbornly, and goes on to tell a story of a woman she knows who bullies her husband with domestic chores.” — https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/nov/26/gender.uk1

    So, we have to make sure we’re using the right terms. What she is saying is that “violence” can be emotional or physical, and that women tend to learn emotional violence where men learn physical violence.

    However, “domestic violence” in legal terms is generally synonymous only with physical violence. So I’m not sure if you’re purposefully equivocating or if it’s just a misunderstanding. Emotional violence is still evil, but it’s not one and the same with domestic violence in most people’s minds.

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  78. HUG, I read a review that criticized ‘Captain Marvel’ from just that angle, not that there was a strong female lead, but that the strong female lead had no character depth. It was written by a female film critic, incidentally: https://world.wng.org/2019/03/superficial_superhero
    That kind of film criticism is legitimate, as it involves knowing what good story telling looks like. The female author Dorothy L. Sayers wrote that there was nothing more likely to render a story ineffective than deliberately making a character a certain way just in order to make a point. Sayers was a Christian, but her most famous written character, Lord Peter Wimsey, was not, and she hated it when Christian readers of her mystery novels told her she should convert Lord Peter into a Christian. I watched the latest Dr. Who incarnation and had that feeling, that the social messaging was starting to overwhelm the storytelling. The individual characters were quite likeable and potentially interesting, including the female Doctor, but none of them were given time or space to really develop themselves in the short episodes, so that by the last episode, I didn’t feel I knew them any better.

    That is not the kind of criticism that Greg Morse is making, however; and the kind of idealistic arguments about women being protected from dangerous situations by their men that he makes are just silly. The Bible uses imagery of strong females in ways that Morse would find wrong were it not in the Bible. In the book of Proverbs, Wisdom is personified as a woman who instructs men in the way of righteousness. In the book of Revelation, we have two different strong women, one being Babylon, who is a picture of the culmination of human evil (incidentally, those who object to a strong female heroic character never seem to object to a strong female villain – there were no protesting posts when Thor battled his stronger older sister Hela in Ragnarok); and the other being the Wonder, a woman clothed in the sun, standing on the moon, and crowned with seven stars (Revelation 12). She is an unusual figure, the natural enemy of the dragon, the bearer of the child who rules the nations from the throne of God, and whose offspring fight the dragon. There have been many interpretations given to her, as being Mary specifically, Israel as the nation from whom Christ came, and the Church, but essentially she represents all of humanity who follow God by faith, and thus is the counterfoil to both Babylon and the dragon. It would be interesting to see a strong female superhero who is a mother.

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  79. Necron48 asked,
    “How do you do that! how do you make blue bold type in WordPress? I think it’s pretty cool.”

    I don’t know about blue (my text doesn’t show up as blue colored in my browser), but to make bold type, you just use the “b” tag in HTML format.

    _How to make text bold in HTML?_

    Some web design purists may insist you use the “strong” tag for that, but I just use the “b” tag.
    I don’t even know if Word Press blogs support the “strong” tag.

    I didn’t close the end tag on the last “b” tag in one of my posts above, which is why most of my post was in bold (it was a mistake to have most of it was in bold, I was only trying to put some names and a link in bold).

    Liked by 1 person

  80. @Julie Anne

    “Please back this up”

    I don’t have to, …..it’s so much part of an accepted truth that only those with an agenda could seriously doubt how men get treated disgustingly in the divorce courts. Any cursory unbiased check in Google will reveal horror stories from men. I don’t have time to fish them out for you, and list them all.

    “BTW, the divorce rape term is highly offensive”

    So I’ve been told…..apparently being offended by the term is more critical than showing any actual care for the thousands of lives of MEN who have had their lives destroyed in divorce. I thought women were supposed to be empathetic? Or do we only care when women’s lives are being destroyed by divorce?.

    “Please don’t use that term here”

    I don’t intend to, I’ve made my point and I’ve done it quite well…..Highlighting and proving the lack of empathy that women show towards men, whilst getting “offended” at a descriptive term describing that process has been most enlightening.

    ” there are too many survivors”

    Men get raped as well….your gender does not own a monopoly on the market of “rape”. Whilst I do not wish to come across as being insensitive to how horrible it is for women who have been raped, let us not forget that “rape” is not a gender issue. Rape of young boys by Catholic priests has reached endemic proportions. Oh did I mention the brutality of being gang raped in prison by other men? Or the recent and increasing acts of sexual assault on pupils from their female teachers.

    Like

  81. Necron48 – thanks for the reply. I would like to add my voice to those sympathizing with the rough time you have had.

    I still think you are wrong on women and the image of God, simply by reading what the text itself says. You are putting words into Paul’s mouth! He never says woman is made in man’s image. Women have volition, reason, emotion, an ability to be religious and know of God, as men do. The latter is something animals show no sign of, not being created in the image of God.

    As for a wife belonging to her husband as property you quoted the commandment against envy You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or his manservant, or his maidservant, … but I think you are reading ownership into this, although it was an interesting take. The expression my wife does not mean the one I own, but rather the woman to whom I am married rather than someone else’s wife.

    The selling of a daughter does not imply ownership by the father, children are not owned by their parents. The word ‘slave’ in Ex 20 needs some unpacking anyway, it is a big subject in its own right, and the purpose of this law is to ensure good treatment of the daughter.

    The mutuality of adultery being sinful for both men and women is found in Leviticus If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbour, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death, and is difficult to square with Jesus condemnation of a man committing adultery of the heart, and his teaching on divorce and remarriage. The sin is not one of property, which would be theft, but of breaking the one flesh relationship. Husband and wife have exclusive ‘rights’ over each other’s body.

    When I asked about men getting control of their wives, you immediately replied Too many places in the bible to mention them all to you. Women are commanded to be in subjection, to be obedient, to not speak in church, to not teach … which are instructions given to women. Men are nowhere instructed to enforce them, which is the point I was getting at. The husband is indeed the ‘head’ (and this is the reason for her submission), but when you go on to say he may need to ‘discipline’ his wife I think you are starting to mix up how parents are to treat their children. A wife is not a child.

    my experience has taught me that women see any compassion and empathy from a man as weakness I found this rather striking. I find it difficult to believe many women see compassion as weakness, but as I am not a woman we will have to submit to their opinion on this!

    Like

  82. @Mark

    “When it comes to property…………………………… There’s much more to it, but that’s a bit of how it works”

    I’m sorry Mark but your comment didn’t actually refute what I said. The facts that I brought to bear in my comment prove that women are NOT treated as property in the west, not any more. We live in a Matriarchy, that is a fact that cannot be disputed.

    Everything else you said was spot on though.

    Like

  83. @Mark

    “What she is saying is that “violence” can be emotional or physical, and that women tend to learn emotional violence where men learn physical violence”

    Total fabrication….In the link I show you, Erin shows that she is talking about PHYSICAL violence used by women, not just emotional violence.

    Like

  84. Another resource for Necron48,
    with a note:
    The link to the following is a blog for Domestic Abuse Victims who are in recovery, most of the posters there are women (a small number are men). Their blog is heavily moderated.

    Their policy is not to allow dissent, or men coming on to argue on behalf of abusers. All comments on this blog are moderated, so if someone leaves a comment on their blog, it will not appear immediately, if ever, depending on if your post breaks their blog rules..

    Having said that, I hope you make it a habit to go to this blog to just sit and read – just lurk – not just the main blog posts,
    but please read the comments of the people in the comments section
    (most of whom are women, but in the past, they did have a few men participating):

    _A Cry For Justice_

    Just read about the experiences the women in the comments box there share and think about what they’re saying.
    Make it a habit to visit that blog maybe at least once a week and read a few of the posts there, especially the comments that women leave under the posts.

    Liked by 1 person

  85. Necron48,
    Are you an American?

    Are you are black person or a non-black person?

    What are your opinions on black people generally, and in your nation specifically?

    Like

  86. @Daisy

    Don’t take this the wrong way, but I’m actually really happy that you’re talking to me……after the hurt I’ve caused you, and our little misunderstanding (totally my fault), I feared you would have nothing to do with me.

    I promise that I will answer your questions……I just have to go up the road to get some food but I’ll be back, and I will do my best to answer both you and KAS’s questions!!

    Like

  87. Re: actress Brie Larson’s comments while promoting the Captain Marvel movie.

    I think some of my fellow conservatives who are rabidly anti-SJW, or these Manosphere guys, are triggered snowflakes.

    They are looking to see offense where there is none, of they get upset over stuff that they should not get upset by.

    I read Larson’s comments at the time (this was a few weeks ago, leading up to the release of the movie or shortly after it opened).

    Larson was not saying she hates men, or hates whites.

    Larson was saying that in her press tours, she’d like to see more people of color and more women asking her questions and reviewing movies.
    She was not saying that white men should stop being journalists or writing movie reviews.

    Larson was saying, for example, instead of having a room of ten white men interview her on press junkets,
    why not instead have ten white men PLUS five black women, three Asian women, and two Hispanic men, as one possible combination.

    Or, why not have five white men, and five black ladies?
    Or, have eight Asian men, one Latina, and one white dude?

    I’m a conservative, so I’m not totally into this liberal, feminist SJW stuff, but I think Larson had a point with that.

    _Captain Marvel ‘review bombed’ as trolls misinterpret Brie Larson ‘men’ comments_

    Snippets from that article:
    — start quotes —
    CAPTAIN MARVEL is already being targeted online by alleged “Marvel fans” who have completely misconstrued recent comments by its star Brie Larson.
    — end quotes —

    _Brie Larson Shouldn’t Have to Clarify Her Comments About the Captain Marvel Press Tour_

    Like

  88. “Please back this up”

    Necron: “I don’t have to, …..it’s so much part of an accepted truth that only those with an agenda could seriously doubt how men get treated disgustingly in the divorce courts. Any cursory unbiased check in Google will reveal horror stories from men. I don’t have time to fish them out for you, and list them all.”

    If you are going to say that MOST men are prison raped here, the onus is on you to provide the evidence (especially since you said it’s so easy on Google).

    Necron: “Highlighting and proving the lack of empathy that women show towards men, whilst getting “offended” at a descriptive term describing that process has been most enlightening.”

    Did you so quickly forget how women here empathized with the fact that you had been abused? You are not making any sense.

    Necron: “Men get raped as well….your gender does not own a monopoly on the market of “rape”.”

    The topic of this conversation has been about women, so it doesn’t make sense to talk about men who are raped. Of course I know men are raped.

    Like

  89. Necron48 said,
    Also, complementarians hate her because Captain Marvel is going to be used to destroy Thanos, and they have made CM more powerful than any other Marvel character, including Thor and the Hulk…..This is so ridiculous to be beyond words, more powerful than Thor?, what a joke
    — end quotes —

    I don’t understand why anyone would be upset by Captain Marvel being more strong or powerful than Iron Man, Thor, or whomever.

    The Hulk is physically stronger than the Hawkeye character, should I be outraged by that?
    Should I be offended that a dude that can morph into a great big green monster (the Hulk) is stronger than a normal sized human man (Hawkeye)?

    Spiderman is a teen kid with super strength, I bet he’s stronger than Hawkeye, too. Should I be angry or offended about that?

    I read the Wikipedia page on Wonder Woman (DC character) months back, and it says in the DC Universe, Wonder Woman is physically stronger than Superman.

    The Wiki page on Wonder Woman says in one comic from decades back, that Wonder Woman and Superman got into a fight because Superman temporarily turned evil or something (I don’t recall the details), and Wonder Woman defeated Superman.

    I think The Flash is faster than Superman.

    Isn’t Quicksilver in the X-Men faster than Thor, Iron Man, etc? If so, should I be angry about that?

    In the old 1970s television show Bionic Man and Bionic Woman, wasn’t the Bionic Woman just as fast and strong as the Bionic Man?

    Cue parody headline,
    “‘Man Says Female Superheros Not Realistic’ not offended by Turtles who Know Karate and Have a Talking Rat as Sensei”

    Like

  90. Necron48 said,
    Gal Gadot a.k.a Wonder Woman didn’t shove identity politics down our throats, she was lovely, powerful and didn’t make it about her gender. She is the “true” Captain Marvel if you ask me, and a far better role model than Brie Larson will ever be.
    — end quote —

    I just said on a post in this thread to someone else yesterday that yes, the actors, studios, and directors should market their women-centric films in such a way as to not be overt about any “girl power” messages they want to put in their films.
    They need to show, not tell.

    I will give a caveat: there are time in the movies themselves when it may be appropriate to be up front about obstacles women face.

    For example, it’s my understanding in the Captain Marvel movie that when the Carol character first becomes a pilot, which was a male-dominated career at one time, the other male pilots were sexist to her. I do think it’s okay to show things like that in a movie.

    I’ve not yet seen the Captain Marvel movie, but I have seen the Wonder Woman movie. Wonder Woman is in some regards more of a traditional female as portrayed in that movie, she coos at babies she sees on the street, and so on.

    Which is fine, that is one type of femininity. There’s nothing wrong with a woman being motivated to fight out of a sense of empathy and compassion (one of the reasons she as a character was created in the first place.)

    However, not all women are “girly girls” who do things like coo at infants. I am not.

    Based on what I’ve read about the Captain Marvel movie so far, I am probably closer in personality, habit, and temperament with Carol Danvers (Captain Marvel) than I am with Diana Prince (Wonder Woman). And that’s fine.

    Spiderman (Peter Parker) and Batman (Bruce Wayne) don’t have identical personalities or types of masculinity, and both those guys are not the same as Logan (Wolverine).

    That’s okay, too. Men don’t have to express masculinity in the same way or have the same personalities.

    Like

  91. Wonder if Necron48 is posting from Phoenix; I’m thinkin this may be William Wallace II’s new fake ID.

    BTW, I don’t know what Necron signifies but in the fantasy game Warhammer the Necrons are race of skeleton-like robots who awaken from an aeons-long sleep and are fighting to reclaim the galaxy from the younger races.

    That backstory would halfway explain this guy’s messiah-complex.

    Like

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