Greg Morse, Desiring God, Complementarian Theology, Misogyny
-by Kathi
Greg Morse at Desiring God recently lamented over the female lead role in the superhero movie, Captain Marvel. Here is what he thinks of society’s view of women in protective roles:
As I consider Disney’s new depiction of femininity in Captain Marvel, I cannot help but mourn. How far we’ve come since the days when we sought to protect and cherish our women.
I wish it were. Instead of engaging the movie’s ideology as mere fiction, a fun escape to another world, we have allowed it to bear deadly fruit on earth. Along with Disney, we abandon the traditional princess vibe, and seek to empower little girls everywhere to be strong like men. Cinderella trades her glass slipper for combat boots; Belle, her books for a bazooka. Does the insanity bother us anymore?
We ought to lament that feminist lust cannot be appeased, even with blood. It takes its daughters and now, calling men’s bluff, advocates for sending its mothers into the flames.
We used to be attuned enough to know how shameful it is for men to hide behind their women, hoping she will take down Goliath. Have we forgotten how precious our women are? Have we forgotten that it is our glory to die in their place?
I would venture to guess that if Mr. Morse was in a profession where his life was in danger every day he would appreciate the women that worked along side him in the same capacity. None of his rhetoric is surprising given John Piper’s views of women in the military. Morse is merely towing the DG party line.
But, then again, his thoughts on women also shouldn’t be surprising since he thinks effeminacy is a sin obscured by Satan.
Twitter has been all abuzz with people commenting on the article. Morse sure got a lot of push back, understandably:
Well, there was someone who liked the article:
To end, I would like to suggest to Mr. Morse that he stop using language such as “our women” and “their women” in his writing. Women are not property of men. Women are human beings and image bearers of God. And women are as willing as men to lay down their lives for others.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
(part 1)
Necron48 said,
We’re living in the West, with America in particular being the most gynocentric nation on earth, that has given more rights to women than any other group that I know of.
More funding than men, more health care, less jail time compared to men for the same crime, no fault divorce, divorce raping men in the court system which is inherently biased towards women, alimony laws which are evil and unjust.
So you were saying about women not being treated like property?? I think you must be talking about women living in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Muslim countries that institute Sharia Law which strip women of all their rights, but living in America, you women have it easy.
— end quotes —
Sexism against women still exists in the United States, and in some places, and in some ways, it can be just as bad as it is overseas.
For instance, women and girls in the United States still face sexual harassment in the workplace (look up Harvey Weinstein and other “me too” examples).
Teen girls and women in the United States are sometimes victims of domestic violence of men (they are sometimes even killed by their husbands and boyfriends), and women in our nation are raped, too.
_Women (and the men) Who Argue Against Feminism, Who Claim Men and Masculinity Are Under Attack, Or Who Insist That There is Little, to No, Sexism In The U.S.A._
_The Growing Partisan Divide Over Feminism by Peter Beinart – The Republican and Conservative Women Who Want to Remain in Denial About American Sexism_
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(part 1-b) Re: Necron’s post,
Necron48 said,
So you were saying about women not being treated like property?? I think you must be talking about women living in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan and Muslim countries that institute Sharia Law which strip women of all their rights, but living in America, you women have it easy.
— end quotes —
In one of your comments in this thread, I believe the very first one you made(?), you told us that women are property.
Yes, okay, I looked it up. Here, from your very first post on this thread:
— begin quotes by Necron48 —
Also women are men’s property, much as the modern western mindset despises that concept, it is clearly taught in scripture…
— end quotes by Necron48 —
So you are saying there that all women are “men’s property,” which would include American women, not just women in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Pakistan.
Or, you did not make that distinction in your first post on this blog.
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(part 2)
Necron48 said,
We’re living in the West, with America in particular being the most gynocentric nation on earth, that has given more rights to women than any other group that I know of.
More funding than men, more health care, less jail time compared to men for the same crime, no fault divorce, divorce raping men in the court system which is inherently biased towards women, alimony laws which are evil and unjust….
— end quotes —
An applicable post at my blog that I posted months ago:
_You Say You’re Against Victimhood Culture Yet You Depict All Men As Victims_
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(part 3)
Necron48 said,
We’re living in the West, with America in particular being the most gynocentric nation on earth, that has given more rights to women than any other group that I know of.
— end quotes —
1. American Women had to fight to get the right to vote, and even as late as the 1970s, to be permitted to get credit cards on their own, and not through a husband.
One state did not outlaw marital rape until as recently as the 1990s, if memory serves.
_7 Shocking Things Women Weren’t Allowed to Do Until Pretty Recently _
2. Perhaps, if women have more rights in the United States than in other nations, that is because the United States was grounded in Judeo-Christian values, and among Judeo Christian beliefs resides Galatians 3:28, which says,
“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
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(part 1) Julie Anne quoting Necron,
Necron: “Men get raped as well….your gender does not own a monopoly on the market of “rape”.”
— end quote —
Patriarchy norms tell boys and men who ARE raped or sexually assaulted in some other way to deal with that sexual assault in very unhealthy ways, all to shore up traditional gender stereotypes and roles, the ones you’re defending or advocating, Necron.
A lot of men are taught under gender stereotypes that they are supposed to be tough, stoic, and that it’s “girly,” weak, and feminine for a man (or a boy) to show hurt, to admit to hurt, to go and see a therapist, etc.
This leads to a lot of boys and men developing mental health problems, such as depression or suicidal ideation. Some men turn to alcohol or drugs to self-medicate, which can cause them physical health problems, job loss, etc.
The Gillette ad that was on TV a few weeks ago which ticked off a lot of guys such as yourself was simply trying to point out that many (maybe all?) traditional gender stereotypes for males are harmful for males, just as the ones for females are harmful and detrimental to females.
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(part 2) Julie Anne quoting Necron,
Necron: “Men get raped as well….your gender does not own a monopoly on the market of “rape”.”
— end quote —
Questions about this.
Necron, when you go out shopping late at night, do you ever rush to your car in a hurry to get in and drive back to your home?
Do you check under the car and in the backseat before getting in to make sure there is nobody there?
Do you do things like carry your car keys (if you have keys) outwardly, with the “pointy” end facing out, so if you are attacked, you can use your car keys as weapons?
When you get into an elevator with another man, do you ever feel uncomfortable, afraid that the man may grope you or rape you? So you get off the elevator and take the stairs instead?
If you go to a bar or someplace else, and a woman approaches you to flirt with you and maybe ask you on a date, do you feel afraid to tell her that you are not interested and don’t want to date her?
I think sexual assault stats I’ve read say that more little girls are sexually assaulted than are boys.
I can’t recall off hand the exact figure, if it’s like one out of every four vs. one out of every ten, or whatever.
But girls and women are usually sexually assaulted (by men) at higher numbers than boys and men are – and girls and women are not sexually assault just by strangers, but by their husbands, boyfriends, stepfathers, uncles, grandfathers, etc.
The only times I hear of men raping other men are in prisons or in “hazing” incidents in the military or colleges, not when they are say, doing daily, normal, run of the mill stuff, walking out to their car at night after doing some shopping at the Kroger’s grocery store.
There were a small number of male serial killers who did prefer male victims (some would sexually torture their victims first before murdering them), but a lot of them also preferred female victims.
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@Daisy
Far out!, you have indeed put some mighty effort and scholarship into your comments….I sincerely doubt I would be able to reply to each and every single thing you’ve addressed with all your comments.
I’m going back to some older comments of yours now and answering them…..see you there.
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@Daisy
“Are you an American?”
No, I am a Shiite Muslim who believes that men should have sex slaves……LOL, just kidding!
I am a white European…yes that is still a thing believe it or not, we haven’t been made extinct yet despite valiant efforts by some ahhem groups I won’t mention.
I live in New Zealand, and YES the massacre in the Mosques over here was extremely tragic. The Lord abhors those who shed innocent blood.
“What are your opinions on black people generally, and in your nation specifically?”
Do you remember what Chris Rock said when asked something similar?…..he replied, “I love black people, I just hate Nig***rs” LOL…It was funny at the time. I personally don’t have a problem with black people, I’ve never met them, nor been harmed by them. I think they have had a terrible time of persecution and unfair treatment in your country. Even though things have improved dramatically for them, there still exists racism, but now the tide has turned. Whites are being discriminated against now, and we are public enemy number 1
Gal 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”
God doesn’t care about the color of your skin, He is more concerned about your heart and whether you have a right relationship with Him, so nor should we care about skin color.
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N48, “Total fabrication….In the link I show you, Erin shows that she is talking about PHYSICAL violence used by women, not just emotional violence.”
Okay, I’m trying here. I posted a link to an interview of her in Guardian. You posted a link, I watched the first five minutes and she used the word “violence” over and over and talked about women being “dangerous” and “violent” to their children, but you seem to be claiming that women are physically violent towards their husbands with a higher rate than men being physically violent towards their wives. Can you give me a time in the video where she ACTUALLY says what you claim she is saying?
Newspapers are a primary source. They interview a person and they quote them. They may misquote or they may misinterpret, but journalistic integrity, which virtually all journalists still hold says that if the reporter fabricated the interview, they would be, at a minimum, forced to publicly apologize, and more likely, fired. I gave you a link to the article. If it is, as you claim, a total fabrication, then, surely you have more than just your assertion (you do love to assert, don’t you) to make someone believe that you are telling the truth against someone whose very livelihood is dependent on at least factually accurate reporting.
“I’m sorry Mark but your comment didn’t actually refute what I said. The facts that I brought to bear in my comment prove that women are NOT treated as property in the west, not any more. We live in a Matriarchy, that is a fact that cannot be disputed.”
I choose “property” to highlight the entire line of reasoning, but you so eloquently doubled down on it here. Do you seriously believe we live in a Matriarchy? I can’t tell what crap you actually believe and what crap you are just spouting because you want to come off with just the right swagger and bravado. Let’s see. Our president is male. Our congress is 76% male, our state executives are 72% male and yet you say we are a “Matriarchy”?
If you want a debate, you need to stop the assertions, and you need to start saying what you really mean and what can be backed up by evidence. I appreciate the link, but I’m not going to waste 45 minutes on a “Red Pill” site just to find that you really didn’t provide any evidence.
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@KAS
Thanks for being sympathetic KAS……much appreciated.
“The mutuality of adultery being sinful for both men and women is found in Leviticus”
Yes, but not in the way you think……The adulteress is put to death because she violated the covenant that stipulates that her body belongs to her husband, and NO ONE else, so she has no right to give her body to anyone else……The reason why the adulterer is put to death is because he has no right to take/steal what does not belong to him, namely another man’s wife……..I am reading what I write, and I know it sounds so sexist and demeaning. Yes, I know its very patriarchal, and Yes, I know how demeaning it sounds, but I didn’t make the rules here, God did. You must remember that there was a totally different mindset back then, a mindset that most women would recoil from with abject horror.
What would you say, if I told you, the stigma of being barren was so strong, that a wife would rather get her husband to have sex with a slave woman in his home, just so she could procure children for them? well that happened, more than once and women were ok with it (Abraham and Hagar)…….I would like to see a husband try that on his wife in today’s society!!
Is Old Testament Patriarchy for born again believers in Christ?, should we model after the ownership principle? I don’t know. Probably not.
But what I would like to do is share a very personal story with you to maybe help answer that question:
Many years ago when I was in a relationship with a very abusive woman (mostly emotionally, verbally), I remember the times when she was tender hearted and had a submissive, and gentle, attitude towards me. Do you know what that did for me?, it made me so loving and affectionate, there was not a single thing I would refuse her, it made me so kind and tender hearted, and there was beautiful harmony in the home. It actually, when I look back, makes me think of that line in the movie “My big fat Greek wedding” where the mother of the young girl Toula, said “Just remember Toula, the man is the head, BUT the woman is the neck, and we can turn our men any which way we want”…….I think there’s a lot of truth in that.
By being submissive, it brings out the best and kindest qualities in a man, where he will do anything for his woman, so the woman gets what she wants without being direct and confrontational……….Do you know what happened when my partner became abusive, unsubmissive, violent, aggressive, and basically a right “bitch”? All hell broke lose, it literally brought out the lion in me. I believe God is teaching us a very important lesson here, when a woman submits, it automatically brings out a protectiveness and gentleness in men which in turn is reciprocated and has a flow on effect that literally feeds off each other.
There is another lesson here, that I think may answer some questions the women reading my words may be asking……..The harsh, do as I tell you no nonsense patriarchal, you must submit approach IS NOT, I REPEAT, NOT for gentle, soft hearted women, it is for the Andrea Dworkin’s of the world, it is for the rebellious, loud, aggressive feminists who hate men. It is for those narcissistic, controlling, manipulative evil women out there. For the abused, for the soft hearted, for the tender, and kind, and caring women, MY HARSH PATRIARCHAL TALK is not for you!! Like begets like, hate begets hate, kindness begets kindness.
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@KAS
“Men are nowhere instructed to enforce them, which is the point I was getting at”
There is no point having authority if you cannot exercise it, it’s dead authority and quite useless. If a husband cannot enforce what he wishes from his wife, and I’m talking reasonable requests, not a tyrant ok, then is there any point to him being the “head”?
It’s like a cop telling you to stop stealing from that house, with NO power to arrest you. The criminal would just say, whatever dude, you can’t make me.
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@Daisy
“The Hulk is physically stronger than the Hawkeye character, should I be outraged by that?”
Totally unfair comparison. We are not outraged because a woman, in this case Captain Marvel is strong, we are outraged because in the comics Captain Marvel is NOT that strong, but Kevin Feige and Disney are using CM as the go get em girl, you can do anything garbage. Scarlet Witch is way more deadly and powerful than CM, you don’t see me complaining about that. and Dark Phoenix would destroy them all if you pissed her off, and Dark Phoenix is a woman, do you see me complaining about that?
“Spiderman is a teen kid with super strength, I bet he’s stronger than Hawkeye, too”
Totally unfair comparison. Spiderman is probably the strongest in the MCU in terms of physical strength, if you discount the Hulk, a close second for physical strength would be Captain America, but it’s apples and oranges. Wonder Woman beats them all, so what of it?, you don’t see me complaining because she is a woman.
“it says in the DC Universe, Wonder Woman is physically stronger than Superman”
Not true at all, but lets agree to disagree. Superman prime 1,000,000 would love to have a word with you on who is stronger.
“Wonder Woman defeated Superman”
Lol, don’t make me laugh……Supes would destroy her.
“I think The Flash is faster than Superman”
Unfortunately true, but not by much……Flash cheats as he has access to the Speed Force, Supes doesn’t.
“Isn’t Quicksilver in the X-Men faster than Thor, Iron Man, etc? If so, should I be angry about that?”
Woohoo!! I love Quicksilver…..He’s even faster than the Flash.
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@Daisy
“For instance, women and girls in the United States still face sexual harassment in the workplace”
Women have deemed merely looking at them sexual harassment, so it all depends on how you define your terms. I have zero sympathy for these kinds of women, they seem to live in perpetual victim status, whereas women in old generations would laugh how pathetic and weak modern women have become. An illustration if I may:
1: women circa 1940 walks past group of working men who wolf whistle at her…she smiles and blushes and carries on
2: women circa 2019 walks past group of working men who wolf whistle at her……she either sues them for sexual assault, or spends the next 10 years in therapy for emotional distress PATHETIC.
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Your hatred of women is so obvious. It’s all about power and control over women for you. The Bible says that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church.
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@Daisy
You raise some powerful points that I cannot refute…..So I have to say we are in full agreement on this one.
When you look at it from that perspective, women are far, far more in danger in being raped and physically assaulted.
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“women circa 2019 walks past group of working men who wolf whistle at her……she either sues them for sexual assault, or spends the next 10 years in therapy for emotional distress PATHETIC.”
No, it’s real. Just as Daisy reported. I just got home from going out to dinner and every single time I drive – and especially when it’s dark – , I am using the safety precautions I learned from self-defense training classes I have taken a couple of times in my life. These were classes done by police officers for women/girls to protect themselves from men who might attack/rape them. Have you had to take self defense classes to protect yourselves from women? Do they offer self-defense classes to men to protect them from women? The fact that you so freely ridicule and put down women reveals your heart. I am very serious when I say this: please get some help. It’s wrong to have that kind of hatred towards a group of people.
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@Julie Anne
“Your hatred of women is so obvious”
I will accept that as an axiom, IF you are to concede that your hatred of men is obvious as well. I don’t hate ALL women, you need to go back and re read my comments where I have been praising and reaffirming the good qualities of women. In fact in the very comment of mine which you quoted just now, I spoke how the harsh Patriarchal talk is NOT for gentle women….how on earth then do you come to the conclusion I hate women???? That statement alone shows that there are certain groups of women who deserve love and kindness.
“It’s all about power and control over women for you”
Rubbish!, men have NO control over women and you know it. You have the entire backing of society, big daddy State, many, many laws, loyal white knights ALL of whom are ready to pounce on any infraction that hurts women.
You as a woman have full rights and control over your body when you conceive a child, men have NO rights at all, you can kill your child in the womb, and there’s nothing a man can do to stop you, so where is this control over women you’re talking about?
As a woman you have full control, when and IF you choose to have sex, men have absolutely NO rights or control at all, otherwise it’s rape, so where do I have control and power over women?
As a woman you have full control and power to end a marriage, and there’s not a thing a man can do to stop you, even if he wants to remain married, tough luck, once the woman wants out, men are s**t out of luck, so where’s this imaginary control and power us men have over women?
As a woman, you can give full consent to sex, then retract it the next morning, and accuse a man of rape, and there’s not a thing a man can do to stop you, so where’s my control over women?
As a woman, you dictate how you want the relationship, how you want your kids raised, how you want the finances arranged, how often you wish your partner to spend time with you and the list goes on. Happy wife, happy life was invented for a reason, because ALL men know the sh*t storm that will develop if you fail to please her, so how is it you say men have control over women?
The truth of the matter, especially in the West, women have ALWAYS had full control over men, and when women deny it, or accuse men of wanting to “control women”, it is because they are projecting their OWN desire to subjugate and control men, just like God said YOU would….see Genesis 3:16
“The Bible says that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church”
Absolutely true, and that MUST be taught to all men, it’s an unmistakable and clear scripture for us men to obey. Now go and do your part about being in total subjection to your husband, obeying him in EVERYTHING, being submissive, chaste, meek, keepers at home, having reverence to him as unto Christ. Because the same bible that calls me to love my wife, also gives clear and concise instructions to YOU as well. The only difference between me and you Julie, is I don’t argue the scriptures that I’m meant to be applying in my walk with Jesus, but you will twist and squirm to get out of those scriptures that call for a wives obedience, and you will accuse me of “hate” for even bringing them up.
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@Julie Anne
In answer to all your questions, NO I haven’t….and yes, women do face a very real, and very scary threat from violent MEN. There are dozens of unredeemed, and dangerous men who prey on women, and I despise them. But wolf whistling is not the same as rape. I would love to have a woman whistle at me lol.
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I don’t think I have time right now to go through every post on here and read all right now, or reply.
For now,
Necron said
— start quotes —
(quoting Daisy): ““it says in the DC Universe, Wonder Woman is physically stronger than Superman”
(Necron said), Not true at all, but lets agree to disagree. Superman prime 1,000,000 would love to have a word with you on who is stronger.
(quoting Daisy) “Wonder Woman defeated Superman”
(Necron said), Lol, don’t make me laugh……Supes would destroy her.”
— end quotes —
That is what the Wikipedia page said.
Wonder Woman page, Wikipedia
Excerpts from that Wiki page about Wonder Woman:
In a 1943 issue of The American Scholar, Marston wrote:[25]
Not even girls want to be girls so long as our feminine archetype lacks force, strength, and power. Not wanting to be girls, they don’t want to be tender, submissive, peace-loving as good women are. Women’s strong qualities have become despised because of their weakness. The obvious remedy is to create a feminine character with all the strength of Superman plus all the allure of a good and beautiful woman.
..The Golden Age Wonder Woman had strength that was comparable to the Golden Age Superman. Wonder Woman was capable of bench pressing 15,000 pounds even before she had received her bracelets, and later hoisted a 50,000 pound boulder above her head to inspire Amazons facing the test.[91]
Even when her super strength was temporarily nullified, she still had enough mortal strength of an Amazon to break down a prison door to save Steve Trevor.[92] In one of her earliest appearances, she is shown running easily at 60 mph (97 km/h), and later jumps from a building[clarification needed] and lands on the balls of her feet.[93]
…Post-Crisis
In the Post-Crisis universe, Wonder Woman receives her super powers as a blessing from Olympian deities just like the Silver Age version before, but with changes to some of her powers:[101]
Demeter, the goddess of agriculture and fertility, blessed Diana with strength drawn from the Earth spirit Gaea, making her one of the physically strongest heroes in the DC Universe and the strongest female hero in the DC Universe. This strength has allowed her to easily overwhelm Superman and Supergirl
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Necron said,
“But wolf whistling is not the same as rape. I would love to have a woman whistle at me lol.”
Suppose you got thrown into jail and had some male inmates in that jail cell with you that you had to spend the night with, and they are physically bigger and stronger than you, and are bad guys.
Suppose further one of them wolf-whistles at you, tells you he finds you sexy, and the other one said he also finds you alluring, and he wants you to lower your pants and bend over for him?
How would you feel about that?
Would you find that flattering?
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You are not getting it. When a man whistles at a woman, she is unclear what his intentions are or where it could lead. A woman can’t even walk down the block without having that gnawing feeling that a man “could” approach her and do her harm. Please do not minimize the real threats women face daily. It’s not just a cat call.
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Necron said,
I don’t hate ALL women, you need to go back and re read my comments where I have been praising and reaffirming the good qualities of women.
— end quotes —
So, you are only polite to women if they defer to you and exhibit qualities that you like. You are saying you are only kind and polite to women if they are in return to you?
I think you’ve said a few times that you are a Christian?
Jesus Christ said to return love for hate.
From Matthew 5:43-48, Jesus of Nazareth speaking:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
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(part 1)
Necron said,
“Rubbish!, men have NO control over women and you know it. [Goes on to perpetuate victimhood culture of men”
My ex fiance, as I said yesterday on this thread, financially abused me for years.
He also used me emotionally.
You saw that post I did because you later commented about it to me.
I was not at an advantage in that relationship.
Not all men are victims of women but some of them abuse and exploit women.
Being male comes with way more advantages in most cultures.
Being a woman is often a liability, even in the United States (which is where I live).
I refer you to the resources listed in this blog post:
On Men Not Believing Women and Being Blind to the Sexism and Harassment Women Often Endure
(continued in next post)
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part 2, reply to Necron48
I would in particular direct your attention to the links from my blog post about the biological woman who was Transgender, converted to a man, now people recognize her (him) as a man, and (s)he discusses how (s)he gets treated with more respect (by both men and women) than (s)he ever did as a woman:
Article on Washington Post:
_Male Scientist Writes of Life as Female Scientist_
Article at New Republic:
_Why Aren’t Women Advancing At Work? Ask a Transgender Person._
To find more articles about that person, try doing a google search for the phrase “Neurobiologist Ben Barres”
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I really should be going to bed, but I keep replying here. 🙂
Julie Anne said (to Necron),
“Your hatred of women is so obvious. It’s all about power and control over women for you. The Bible says that husbands are to love their wives as Christ loves the church”
Julie Anne, my understanding of Necron so far is that he is respectful and kind to women who he views as playing out traditional female roles, such as being very deferential, not showing anger, etc.
If you understandably find his views and comments on women repugnant (and they are in fact repugnant, when he refers to women as being property, etc) and push back in anything less than a super genteel manner, he gets easily angered and offended. It’s like Tone Policing on steroids.
I was raised, unfortunately, to be a traditional female under complementarianism, which was nothing but teaching girls and women to be codependent (doormats who lack boundaries, take insult and abuse in silence)
-so I had years and years of practice of acting all genteel and proper to men, even when they were being sexist to me, insulting me, etc. That is the reaction I think he is wanting, expecting, etc.
I think he thinks so long as women follow that “be a doormat” script, he will treat you politely, but step out of that and show your anger or speak strongly to him, it sets him off.
Just for fun, the ladies on here should log in under male screen names, talk to him under a male sounding name, and see how he behaves. 🙂
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@Julie Anne
Yes, you are right, I guess I’m only seeing things from a male perspective and I haven’t put myself in your shoes….I guess because I know in my heart that I would never do that to a woman, that I automatically assume that other men would mean no harm when they do things like that……But as you and I know, there are some sick, violent assholes out there, who don’t have the check and balances of being a Christian to hold them back.
You won’t get no argument from me on this one Julie Anne. I guess it must be disconcerting never knowing what some men could be planning, especially in America, and especially at night.
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@Daisy
“My ex fiance, as I said yesterday on this thread, financially abused me for years.
He also used me emotionally”
Yeah I agree you should probably go to bed and get some sleep as you can’t even get your stories correct. You just said before that you’re a virgin and never had sex. Yet you had a partner!!!!
Whoops!!!
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Re: Necron post of March 15, 2019 at 6:23 PM,
quotes
— start Necron quotes —
“I am a white European……I live in New Zealand… I personally don’t have a problem with black people, I’ve never met them, nor been harmed by them. I think they have had a terrible time of persecution and unfair treatment in your country. Even though things have improved dramatically for them, there still exists racism, but now the tide has turned.
Whites are being discriminated against now, and we are public enemy number 1 …God doesn’t care about the color of your skin, He is more concerned about your heart and whether you have a right relationship with Him, so nor should we care about skin color.”
— end Necron quotes —
Okay, suppose you visited a blog similar to this one, and the post at the very top of the page was about how a Christian writer named “John Doe” at a Christian site wrote a blog post that was angry and critical of the Marvel movie “Black Panther,” because the movie had a mostly all-black acting cast in it.
Imagine further that the author of that Christian essay, “John Doe,” argues how movies such as that are so wrong, because they are teaching black people that they can be heroes just like white people have been shown to be heroes in movies.
Imagine that the article argues that black people should know their role, and their role is acting as subservient to white people and not acting as brave, independent superheroes.
Suppose also that most of the participants and posters in this thread at this other imaginary blog are black people.
Suppose the first comment you see under that post looks something like this, and suppose it was written by someone calling himself “Doug Jones”:
— start fictional post quotes —
Post by Doug Jones
I hate to say it but John Doe is 100% correct
Black people have become increasingly acting “white,” and these white traits are relentlessly pushed by the media and Disney
Also blacks are NOT image bearers of God, the word of God states that whites were created in the image of God and blacks were forever put under the curse of Ham.
Also blacks are white people’s property, much as the modern western mindset despises that concept, it is clearly taught in scripture…
A black is under his or her white master’s guidance and authority… That is God’s decreed order, NOT MINE
— end fictional post comment —
So, Necron, suppose that is the first response you see under that post about a Christian author who criticized the movie “Black Panther.”
How would you expect the black people reading about that comment by “Doug Jones” to feel about it?
Would you expect them to take kindly to the first response by “Doug Jones?”
Or do you think they may find that post insulting, rude, and it might make them feel angry, offended, and hurt?
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Necron said,
““My ex fiance, as I said yesterday on this thread, financially abused me for years.
He also used me emotionally”
Yeah I agree you should probably go to bed and get some sleep as you can’t even get your stories correct. You just said before that you’re a virgin and never had sex. Yet you had a partner!!!!
Whoops!!!”
— end quote —
I was engaged for a few years, but I told my fiance I wanted to wait until marriage to have sex, so we did not have sex.
Then I broke up with him.
I remain a virgin to this day.
You need to think before you post.
My point is that my ex fiance’ took financial and emotional advantage of me. Men sometimes exploit women.
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Julie Anne,
I don’t know what you consider material worthy of a banning, being put on moderated status, ad hominem, or whatever, but Necron’s post to me at
_this locaion_ (just a few posts up from this one),
was deeply offensive to me.
It comes across to me like a personal attack. Maybe it’s not to YOU, because he’s not saying “hey, you slept around when you told me you’re a virgin,” but that is exactly how it strikes me.
He accused me of lying, and lying about my sexual history (which as you know, I’m a life long celibate, I’ve never had sex, as I’ve said on this blog for years).
When Necron claimed on here the other day that he was abused by a woman he knew, I did not suggest he was lying or making it up, or that it never happened. Yet, he’s pulling this on me.
I’ve been playing real nice with this guy today, and he turns around and pulls a dirt bag stunt like this.
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Necron said,
“… who don’t have the check and balances of being a Christian to hold them back.”
You’ve not been “acting like a Christian” towards me, not here and not on my site.
And self professing Christians are in the news constantly for molesting children, having affairs, or beating their wives.
Being a Christian has not, so far as I can tell, helped men generally act more ethically towards others.
Go do a google search for the three part Houston Chronicle series entitled “Abuse of Faith” to see the news coverage of all the Christian men who have raped or molested children or women, and the SB Churches do nothing about it. That is just one example.
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@Daisy
Seriously get over yourself, and stop acting like a butt hurt victim…. I made an observation and it was wrong, I assumed that when you have a fiancee you are supposed to have sex together. It wasn’t a personal attack on your sexuality.
Considering the veiled aggression I’ve had to put with you with just about every comment you make, It’s YOU that should be put on moderation, but I’ve been tolerant and not complained.
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Necron48, Okay, I finally get it. We’re triggered because of the sheer level of your emotional violence. I grew up in a house where there was limited parent/child physical violence, sibling physical violence was not okay, but emotional violence was tolerated.
The way you argue gives me flashbacks to arguing with my narcissistic brother. He didn’t care what the truth was as long as he won the argument, and it was only ever won through emotional violence. I stopped arguing with him when he started caring about certain wrong beliefs. It was one thing when winning an argument was a game, yet another when winning an argument was a life or death battle. For my safety, I refuse to engage with him whenever I’m at family gatherings.
I also think that is why everyone here is arguing with you – I think emotional violence is what we all grew up with.
As I said, I’m happy to debate the topic with facts and logic, but I will not debate with someone who refuses to hear facts and instead of listening, understanding and responding turns it into an emotionally violent shouting match.
And that is why also, you need help, as Julie Anne has said. My brother is emotionally violent towards anyone who disagrees with him. He’s emotionally violent towards his children. His need to be superior is unquenchable. He emotionally crushes anyone he feels might be a threat to his superiority, and when he’s in public he’s a completely different person.
Why I didn’t become like my brother was that learning and understanding truth always trumped looking good or winning debates. Although I still get angry when triggered, I’ll at least consider and work through a logical argument. That’s why I reject complementarianism – because there are too many flaws in their reasoning. The thing that greatly disturbs me is how incredibly emotionally violent you become when your raw hatred for women is exposed.
While I commend you for wanting to take your anger to God. The problem is that your God hates women, too. The Bible you read hates women. You have blinded yourself to the true God and the true Bible through your desperate need to hate women and blame them for your experience. If you try to lead yourself out, you and yourself will fall into a pit. God had to send many amazing people into my life to gently question my distorted view. Being on my knees before God didn’t help, because I didn’t even know what to pray.
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KAS, see how it makes no sense that husbands can have unenforceable authority over their wives? Either they can enforce it, or they don’t have authority. Either wife discipline or egalitarianism. I know which one I pick.
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@C. Brian Prentiss – I had to look that one up, but it’s an interesting theory. https://rachelheldevans.com/blog/driscoll-troubled-mind-william-wallace
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@Mark
“and instead of listening, understanding and responding turns it into an emotionally violent shouting match”
Seriously?, violent shouting match? I’m calling you out Mark as either a liar, or so wounded by your arguments with your brother, that you now interpret healthy debate as an emotionally violent shouting match. The reason I’m taking you to task on this one, is because it’s slander and falsely accusing someone. I urge you to go back and peruse the entire debate and read ALL my comments and ALL of their responses. You will find that Daisy’s comments in particular outnumber mine at least 2 to 1. Not a very fair “debate” isn’t it. Also since Julie Anne pulled me up on my comment to Scott where he abused me, I have not shouted at anyone. My comments have been respectful and precise, this is why none of my subsequent comments have been deleted by Julie.
In fact when I went back just now to reread ALL my comments, I was struck by how much I’ve taken a conciliatory and friendly tone with the people in this thread, whilst being subjected to veiled aggressive comments and unfair snipes at me.
“I also think that is why everyone here is arguing with you”
Last time I checked it takes 2 to “argue” and like I said before, the other commentators outnumber my comments by at least a 2 to 1 ratio….so who is arguing? I am respectfully putting my view point across and to be honest, I’m winning, and you and others can’t handle it, so you smear my character as having engaged in “emotionally aggressive violent shouting”. really???, really????
“The thing that greatly disturbs me is how incredibly emotionally violent you become when your raw hatred for women is exposed”
I actually expect an apology from you from that vile piece of slander. “incredibly emotionally violent”….do you even know what that phrase means Mark?,, and I’m being serious now.
“The problem is that your God hates women, too. The Bible you read hates women”
And there my friends is the crux of the problem, I knew it would surface sooner or later. Your hatred of God and hatred of the bible, is what this is all about, it’s not ME you’re attacking, I have merely been the messenger, and you have all been triggered by the demands of a HOLY righteous God, who will call everyone’s deeds to account.
I cannot help you Mark, if you think that by quoting what God SAYS about women, that it somehow makes me a violent hater of women, and that’s all I have ever done since coming into this blog. Now I’m not saying I have all the answers, or that my interpretation is the ONLY correct one, but for goodness sake, stop accusing me of hating women just because I quote from a book!.
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Necron,
Please stick to a logical argument instead of accusing everyone of hating God simply for disagreeing with you.
Jesus said that no one can serve two masters. The problem with Comp theology is that it tries to seat man on God’s throne by demanding that we obey man rather than God. Think about what happened when someone else tried to take God’s throne.
Jesus said that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Comp theology says we must live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of man.
Jesus said not to allow anyone to take away our ability to say yes and no. Comp theology disobeys the words of Christ by taking away our ability to say yes and no.
Think about what happened when the devil tempted Christ. How did Jesus respond?
“”Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the LORD your God and serve only him.'”
Matt 4:10 (NLT)
That’s the problem with Comp theology. No matter how they try to slice it, it always boils down to requiring us to serve another god.
Now let’s see if Necron can refrain from personal attacks/accusations in his response to me.
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Necron,
Here’s the references in case you don’t believe me:
Matt 5:37 & 6:24
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Necron48, “that you now interpret healthy debate as an emotionally violent shouting match.”
No, now I know the difference. This is not a healthy debate. The fact that you think it’s a healthy debate means that you need serious help. A healthy debate is where one person spends the time to understand the facts being presented, the argument being made from that fact, and then responds to one or the other, specifically showing the error. Daisy, Lea, Julie Anne, and even KAS have done that repeatedly, and you respond by simply asserting that you are right without showing any error whatsoever, then launching on some sort of rant – usually some mixture of name calling, wild accusations, and claiming to be a messenger of God, all without a shred of evidence, or so twisted by your own misogynistic presuppositions that it doesn’t even make sense.
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“And there my friends is the crux of the problem, I knew it would surface sooner or later. Your hatred of God and hatred of the bible, is what this is all about, it’s not ME you’re attacking, I have merely been the messenger, and you have all been triggered by the demands of a HOLY righteous God, who will call everyone’s deeds to account.”
Necron48 – Nope. I need to stop you there. You cannot come here and say that those who disagree with you or have a different point of view hate God. This is a classic way to shut down discussion. Many here have had this type of spiritual abuse used against them and I do not stand for it. On this, I will be quite insistent.
We don’t typically shut down discussion here, but I am a bit worried about how this is continuing. Necron48, many of the words you continue to use are triggering to those who have been abused as perhaps the pushback given back to you may be triggering from the abuse you have experienced. I am going to continue to monitor through the day and I ask that the conversation continue to remain on topic and civil.
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@Kathi
“I need to stop you there. You cannot come here and say that those who disagree with you or have a different point of view hate God”
You cannot be serious?, is this some dumb joke?? I have Mark’s exact quote where he said this “The problem is that your God hates women, too. The Bible you read hates women”. Those are Mark’s words and you take me to task for calling him out on it!!! you would rather defend a hater of God, by his own admission, un flippen real!!!
“I am going to continue to monitor through the day and I ask that the conversation continue to remain on topic and civil”
Is that a joke?? what’s wrong with you people?,, I have been extremely civil, whereas your followers in here have abused me, said I follow Satan, been called an “idiot” have been called ” a little boy”, been constantly accused of hating women, had my character smeared more than once, and NOW i was viciously slandered by Mark as having engaged in, what did he say, oh yes, “emotionally violent shouting and vicious hatred of women” and you come in here and got the gall to say you’re going to monitor this conversation so that it remains on topic, as if I am the one at fault???????
“many of the words you continue to use are triggering to those who have been abused”
Seriously??? I’m sorry, but if you lot are “triggered” by what God says, then you need to reevaluate your spiritual status and ask yourselves if you are even Christians, and YOU of all people should know how much abuse I’ve taken in this thread, while keeping the conversation clean and respectful, and now you blatantly ignore someone who slandered a brother in Christ.
I’m done Kathi, It’s clear you and others in here are following the sick, vile, liberal rejection of what God said in his word, and you are clearly BIASED as a moderator, which of all people, I did not expect from YOU. I can no longer in good conscience remain in this thread, or support your blog, so this will probably be my last post. I can guarantee you won’t pull Mark up for his slander against me, or the hateful, snide comments that will be left against me after my departure here. I won’t paste a link here, but go and see Daisy’s blog, and see the disgusting, vile hit piece she did on me.
You really need to pray about what you said in your last comment to me Kathi, everyone here, with the exception of Katy, has seriously lost the plot.
This place ain’t a “Spiritual Sounding Board” I see it for what it is now, it’s a sick, liberal echo chamber, where women who hate men can vent their rejection of the word of God, and justify their bitterness and anger against men, and against God, and where they can come and justify their rejection of God’s commands to them about their gender. I actually feel sorry for you all.
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Whoa, this thread is something else. It’s probably a good thing that lack of time and energy have kept me from commenting until now. I doubt I could have contributed much, and might even have made things worse.
Still, I have few words that I think Necron should hear:
First, along with most men on this thread, I reject your interpretation of the Bible as it pertains to marital relationships. And I do so for the simple reason that I find it completely at odds with Jesus’ primary command to his followers: To do to others as we would like done to us. I would hate to be treated as property, or have my opinions utterly ignored by my spouse. Therefore, if I ever get married, I refuse to treat my wife in the kinds of ways that you suggested in your earliest comments.
Second, you need to start showing a lot more respect to others here, and to Julie Anne in particular. Please remember that this is her blog — she is the host, and you are a guest here just as much as anyone other commenter. She and Kathi have given you a lot of leeway until now. I advise you not to squander their patience.
If you decide to respond, I might not see it for a while, since I’m on my way to bed soon. So please don’t assume that I’m ignoring you if don’t respond right away.
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Whoops! Looks like I was too late… Oh well.
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The (g)od I was taught growing up was not the same God I know now. Everything was about fear and hatred and fire insurance. Of course for every 10 sermons on how we ought to be afraid of impending judgment, there was one on how we shouldn’t just be Christians to escape Hell. So, we were constantly off balance. We heard sermons on denominational hot-button topics – mainly how we were far superior to the liberal Christians out there who had become seeker-centered and “sold out” the Gospel. That (g)od was exemplified in the way I was raised – a (g)od who was rubbing his hands in excitement waiting for me to fall or fail so that he could swiftly and severely punish me. My dad felt it was his responsibility to root out any disobedience or rebellion, so any hint of backtalk, disrespect towards him was immediately and swiftly punished with a hand or belt, whether it was in front of my siblings or my friends. Somehow, to him, it was more important that I FEARED him/God than loving him/God, and he said that point blank. His view and the church’s view that supported him, justified this through sermons preached on the Bible. Of course, not understanding the whole Bible, but in thumping very specific passages, and always from a very narrow view, while ignoring or negating other passages, and especially the “big picture” of scripture.
So, when I say your (g)od hates women and the (b)ible you read hates women. I’m saying that you have replaced the true God and the true (inerrant!) Bible with a gross caricature that you have made in your image. It has taken me years to see God as one who wants me to succeed and only sends gentle guidance and direction to steer me in the right direction.
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It’s been a while since I’ve needed to put someone in the dog house, but it has come to this. Interestingly, when I read Kathi’s comment, I was amazed at how kind and gracious she was, considering the behavior of Necron48. I would have been more blunt. But Necron, you crossed the line for me when you chewed out a moderator.
As Serving Kids in Japan mentioned above, you are a guest here. When you are a guest in someone’s home, you honor the rules of the home, and you have not done that. So, into the dog house you go. If your comments pass our house rules, they will be posted. If not, they will be deleted and no one will see them. Just a side note: I posted a screenshot of a couple of your comments on Twitter and people thought I should have banned you a while back. I’m okay with debates here. I’m not okay with using false religion as a weapon to harm women.
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Exactly, Mark. Necron48 has created a false religion that promotes what he has in his heart: a hatred of women.
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I always appreciate your comments, SKIJ, late or not! Good night in Japan.
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I’m entering this a tad late and haven’t read all the comments but I’m curious if the author of the article or anyone from Desiring God has given any consideration to the time period in which the Bible was written? I’m teaching ancient civilizations to elementary students and every one including Judaism even in Jesus’s time had a class based social structure starting with the ruling family, nobles, religious leaders, military, craftsmen, farmers/peasants, slaves. Only the upper class women would enjoy the privilege of being cared for and protected by a man.
That being said, even a noble woman’s life was far from ideal. The lower working classes had to work together to survive and the women had to be strong. I can think of multiple women in the Old and New Testament that showed amazing strength and resilience in the face of adversity. Hagar the Egyptian when she was forced to leave with her son, didn’t God reveal himself to her? The Hebrew midwives disobeyed Pharaoh’s command to kill the Hebrew boys and implied that the Hebrew women delivered faster than the Egyptian women because the Hebrews were stronger. Jumping forward to Mary the mother of Jesus, I would imagine she had amazing strength of character to endure the gossip and stigma of being found pregnant before she was married then traveling at the end of her pregnancy to deliver Jesus away from home. Priscilla and Aquila traveled with Paul. Travel in general at this time was dangerous because of robbers, wild animals, and so forth.
Even into more “modern times” women joined the workforce when war or disease took the man/men away from home. The ideal presented seems to be some western civilization idealized romanticized version of what ancient life was like. The people that Jesus attracted were the lower working class. His thinking was revolutionary because he removed the need for religious leaders to mediate for the common man or woman either could approach God directly. It seems to me that most modern leaders are trying to hold on to a position that provides them with certain standard of living that is part of the upper class social structure.
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Necron48 – I will continue to advocate for those who are abused, including you. If you look at the top of the blog it states: Out of our wounds flow compassion, understanding, & grace. May we all be “wounded healers” who do no harm.
You came on here as a guest – I don’t recall you commenting on here before this post. If you have, my apologies for missing that. I have been very patient with you, and maybe too long in the opinion of some. I like to give space for discussion and hope that we can have civil discourse among each other. In the case of this thread, I could see the comments starting to escalate again and wanted to make sure we remained on topic and on a civil path.
You say I hate men, but I don’t. I don’t think that the Bible supports gender roles. I don’t think the Bible supports my husband having authority and control over me. And, my husband doesn’t think the Bible supports that as well. I don’t think the Bible limits women’s roles and authority in church and in society. I value men. I value all people, including you. I will, though, call out when I start to see things crossing the line on abuse. If that means I receive harsh criticism, then so be it.
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When I grow up, I want to be just like Kathi. She is so gracious! You rock, Kathi.
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Julie Anne – You’re too kind. I like that we talk about “wounded healers.” We have seen wounded people respond to others in the way they have experienced their own abuse. Everyone heals in different ways and I think we do a good job at allowing space for some of the off comments due to this. There are those who will choose not to address the trauma in their lives as well.
I hope we can continue the discussion without further escalation.
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Going back to Morse’s article, I wonder why now the focus on Captain Marvel. Was this an “enough is enough!” response? Wonder Woman was out not too long ago. She was portrayed as blazing the trail on WWI battlefields with men behind her. Was Morse as put off by this, or is it because Marvel is linked to Disney?
This isn’t the first time Disney has portrayed a strong female character. Mrs. Banks was a suffragette and out spoken about women’s right to vote. Miss Bianca led Bernard on the hunt to find Penny (The Rescuers). Mulan disguised herself as a man to go to battle in her father’s place. And, Merida risked her life for her family.
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I grew up in a patriarchal church, and I finally had to come to grips with a few realities:
1) The Holy Spirit has obviously gifted women with pastoral and leadership abilities, and gifts are specifically for the edification of the church? The implications of this are staggering.
2) Practically, when women are excluded from church leadership, the church can fall into toxic masculinity – rash decisions, harshness and lack of empathy. In a former church, men were excluded from the nursery because the male elders were horrified by the idea of a man watching his kids while a mother was breast-feeding. We had to choose between my wife missing both services or having to go to a service without her family.
3) I think the culturally male “problem-solving” mentality can lead a male-leadership church into an authoritarian model because they see the members as a bunch of DIY projects that they can go fix. And when the “help” is rejected because it’s ill-timed or barking up the wrong tree, it becomes “lack of submission”
4) I had to be honest about certain passages that my patriarchal church explained away or skipped over.
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Mark, you hit the nail on the head. Ugly truth is, I did some historical research on this. In ye olde days, it turns out, Christians regularly taught that husbands had the right to physically discipline their wives. (John Chrysostom’s homily that says husbands should never do that is very rare occurrence in Christianity.) For historical reading on the subject, I refer you to Sarah M. Butler, Barbara Hanawalt, Hannah Skoda, James Brundage, and so forth. Those are the medievalists. I’ve read all sorts of lose papers as well for Church of England in later centuries, and even for Byzantium and Russia. I wish I could scrub my brain after reading all that. It will haunt me for life. Nobody here should read the actual ecclesial court cases without having amazing mental fortitude. You WILL be triggered.
Churches only started debating whether maybe husbands shouldn’t ever physically chastise their wives around the 17th century. That is a pathetic track record, if you ask me. And we have complementarians wanting to wind the clock back to the good old days? No, thanks!
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(part 1)
N-Man said,
[point 1]
“Considering the veiled aggression I’ve had to put with you [Daisy] with
[point 2]
just about every comment you make”
— end quotes —
Point 1:
Oh, it’s not veiled, I’m very open about it.
Point 2:
I was being very polite with you last evening in post after post, and yet, your behavior remained pretty much consistently rude, arrogant, presumptive, and accusing me (once again) of lying, when I did not lie.
You’ve so far accused me of lying about two different topics so far, over a period of 2 – 3 days, when I did not lie about either issue.
Would be interested in hearing N48 reply to the post I left him in the last page of this thread, _Located Here_, post is date stamped March 15, 2019 at 10:00 PM.
I don’t think he ever replied to that post I did(?)
N-Man said,
“I cannot help you Mark, if you think that by quoting what God SAYS about women, that it somehow makes me a violent hater of women”
— end quote —
You continue to wrongly assume that your interpretation of the Bible is the same thing as the Bible itself, that your interpretation cannot possibly be incorrect.
N said,
” Now I’m not saying I have all the answers, or that my interpretation is the ONLY correct one”
— end quote —
But you do. You really do.
There are other Christians who see that the Bible teaches gender egalitarianism, not complementarianism / male hierarchy.
You may want to read a book called _“The Blue Parakeet” _ by Scot McKnight to see there are other ways of understanding the biblical text, ones that don’t lead to assuming God intended for there to be a male hierarchy.
Your male hierarchy version of Christianity is indistinguishable from Islam. Muslims also believe in male hierarchy and the subordination of women to men.
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(part 2)
N – 48 said (to Kathi),
“You cannot be serious?, is this some dumb joke?? I have Mark’s exact quote where he said this “The problem is that your God hates women, too. The Bible you read hates women”. Those are Mark’s words and you take me to task for calling him out on it!!! ”
— end quote —
You really do hate women (at least women who do not live life on YOUR terms or who don’t defer to you the way you THINK women should)- it shows in almost every post you make.
N-man said,
“with the exception of Katy, has seriously lost the plot.”
— end quote —
The only women you’ve shown any sort of decency to in this thread are the ones who acted in a very traditionally gendered role way, who were super deferential and sweet in replying to you from the very start (that would include Katy).
If Katy wants to treat you that way, that is her choice, and that is fine.
I however don’t treat sexist men who start out with their first post on this blog telling me things like I am “property” and “not made in the image of God” with sweet, gentle, kid gloves.
That you were expecting a warm welcome by the women here after expressing revolting attitudes like the ones you did that is bizarre and extremely unrealistic.
This is not a Manosphere blog.
It’s been clear in your interactions with many people on this blog you cannot handle anyone, male or female, disagreeing with you, especially if they are plain and blunt about it.
N man said,
“I’m done Kathi, It’s clear you and others in here are following the sick, vile, liberal rejection of what God said in his word,”
— end quote —
You are there equating your interpretation of the Bible with what you assume God himself things.
Also, I’m not a liberal. I’ve made that plain on this blog and mine for eons now.
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correction of typo in my post right above:
“you assume God himself THINKS,”
-not ‘things’
(part 3)
N-man said,
” I won’t paste a link here, but go and see Daisy’s blog, and see the disgusting, vile hit piece she did on me.”
— end quotes —
Oh, yes, I encourage anyone here to click on my “Daisy” screen name and see that post N-Man is talking about, please do!
Clicking my screen name “Daisy” in this post’s headline will take you to my Daisy blog, and please, do a search for N-man’s name at my blog, and you will find my post about him.
(It’s currently the second post on my blog, under one about Tucker Carlson).
N-man said,
This place ain’t a “Spiritual Sounding Board” I see it for what it is now, it’s a sick, liberal echo chamber, where women who hate men can vent their rejection of the word of God, and justify their bitterness and anger against men, and against God, and where they can come and justify their rejection of God’s commands to them about their gender. I actually feel sorry for you all.
— end quote —
I think you showed up to this blog expecting it to be a Manosphere Echo Chamber and have been infuriated every since that it’s not.
I’ve been a conservative my whole life, not a liberal.
Not all conservatives agree with other conservatives on every topic.
Someone disagreeing with your putrid views of women does not mean they are necessarily “liberal.”
I don’t hate all men, but I do dislike you in particular. You’ve given me plenty enough reason for that. I also dislike sexism against women, which is usually held by men, but by some women as well.
I’m not going to molly coddle you in your supposed victim-hood, like some of the others here have done. If they want to do that, and shower you with love, that is fine, that’s their choice. However.
My sister used to use her pain and stress in life as an excuse as to why she verbally abused me since I was a kid, and so I stopped accepting that as an excuse years ago from her, and from anyone else.
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(part 1, reply to Mark’s post)
Mark said (to N48),
“No, now I know the difference. This is not a healthy debate. The fact that you think it’s a healthy debate means that you need serious help.
A healthy debate is where one person spends the time to understand the facts being presented, the argument being made from that fact, and then responds to one or the other, specifically showing the error…
…then [you go] launching on some sort of rant – usually some mixture of name calling, wild accusations, and claiming to be a messenger of God, all without a shred of evidence, or so twisted by your own misogynistic presuppositions that it doesn’t even make sense.”
— end quotes —
This reminds me of an altercation I had with my sister after our mother died, but years before I realized her behavior (the ranting, name calling, screaming at me, the put downs, threats, etc) was abuse (verbal abuse).
This was before I did all the reading about having boundaries, being codependent, etc. – that research came years after this altercation.
My sister was screaming at me over the phone (I don’t remember about what).
This was back before I was assertive and had a spine.
So my sister was yelling at me, and I meekly, though, asked her to please stop yelling at me.
That is when she began screaming at me that no, she was not going to “sugar coat” her message to me.
She also yelled at me how she was talking to me (raised voice, threats, being obnoxious, etc) is how “all adults talk to one another,” and I needed to accept that.
She also yelled that how she was yelling (screaming) at me was how she and all her former husbands, boyfriends, and friends had communicated.
My sister has a warped view of conversation, debate, and disagreement.
She really thinks it’s normal for two adults to deal with their anger at each other or a difference of opinion by going on an all- out verbal war, where the goal is to WIN and emotionally hurt the other person, if that is what it takes.
This means, my sister think it is acceptable to raise her voice, scream profanity, name call, threaten you with physical violence, try to shame you by throwing mistakes from your past into your face, etc.
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Is it bad that I find Necron48 hilarious? Because I do. He’s an absolute trash pit of contradictions. I can’t even figure out what position he’s arguing from at this point.
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(part 2, reply to Mark’s post)
So my sister thinks it’s normal and healthy for two adults to scream at each other in a debate and act hostile and hateful.
Any disagreements I’d ever had as an adult with most other adults (aside from one or two awful bosses or co-workers I had) were calm.
Neither side yelled, had clenched fists, threw objects, engaged in name calling. THAT is healthy behavior, not flying off the handle even over tepid push-back.
So back at the time of my sister’s blow up at me over the phone, I was stunned when she told me that how she was screaming at me was normal, it’s how “all adults” “talk” to each other. I was sitting there thinking, um, no not in MY universe.
Also, a disagreement is an opportunity to find common ground, not bulldoze the other person over. She and people like her don’t understand that.
A disagreement is not about winning and the other person losing.
-But that is how emotionally and verbally abusive people frame and understand relationships.
It’s laid out in the book “The Verbally Abusive Relationship” by Patricia Evans
Some people, as that book explains, unfortunately view relationships as Win – Lose, and they also view relationships in terms of who gets to control who, and so they REFUSE to be the one who is controlled, which means they have to beat you into submission, so you will be the victim, and they get to be the in-charge bully / Victor / Winner.
Verbal and Emotionally Abusive people have very sick and distorted views of people and relationships.
They don’t realize that neither person in a relationship has to be in control of the other. One person doesn’t have to be a “winner” and the other a “loser.”
I’ve had to limit contact with my sister in the last few years, and I’ve stopped sharing certain personal information with her (I keep all our conversations very superficial), which has helped our relationship.
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necron48,
(Please read the whole statement so you will know what you are getting yourself into, by contributing to this site)
I did notice that this post is under the feminist category in this blog, so please keep that in mind.
It is a fact that the Bible is interpreted in many ways. (especially within the SBC) Congregations are witnessing colliding interpretations of scripture, then end up being intellectually and sometimes spiritually victimized.
Many (including myself) have fallen prey to preachers force feeding their own reckless interpretation of the Bible and if you embrace a different doctrine, the rebuke is sinfully severe.
I thank God I found this site at the time I did.. SSB has been a refuge at a time I was trying to figure out the Doctrine my former pastor actually believed as he purposely wouldn’t disclose it. He Spiritually Abuse my wife and I severely for attempting to figure out what he believed.
Colliding Doctrines in this case is what stimulated the Spiritual Abuse I had been endured for 3 years. I discovered I wasn’t the only one that endured abuse based on doctrine. I shed a tear when I discovered that Julie Anne’s former abusive pastor, embraced the same doctrine as my former pastor.
You may be sincere in your attempt to quote scripture, but I have been “aggressively” corrected a few times (like I was an idiot) by several contributors, that this isn’t a Christian site and the ones that are Christian may not interpret scriptures the same way as you do and you aren’t going to convince them otherwise. More than likely they won’t be able to convince you to think like them. In fact you may end up being severely rebuked and mis-understood.
At times you can have a discussion about what the Bible says and in other times you better not go there, especially when social ideologies collide.
The Preacher that Spiritual Abused our Congregation used his own intellectual form of Academic legalism in a way to manipulate and make other’s feel stupid and to force feed his interpretation of scripture and then severely rebuke those that didn’t see it the same way as he. (He was a Hyper-Calvinist and the congregation wasn’t at all Calvinist He also used his Academic superiority using key verses as a diversion to avoid disclosing his true doctrine. (he used the word “Truth” as his definition of his Doctrine)
I did read your opening statement and you made your points clear enough. You may have referred to scripture, but in a site where women have suffered abuse I can see how you might come across pretty strong in a site like this. Further more this site has self-proclaim feminists that may consider your views as sexiest, especially those that reject Christianity but also those that proclaim to be Christian.
If at first you were sincere in having a biblical conversation, the passages you were referring is going to spark distaste or anger and your intelligence is going to be challenged. In this case, punctuation and grammar was used as a diversion to avoid having a biblical conversation, which I think you were attempting to have.
So I was a little disappointed, but not surprised that grammar or punctuation is more important or a diversion. Preachers who have used those verses, use them out of context to stimulate their abuse or control of their congregation. I will admit that it would be a first for me to see a contributor on this site being corrected in the manner in which you have, if you had actually did see eye to eye with those managing this blog.
You have to keep in mind, it is their blog and they can and will place the goalposts where ever they want whether or not you want to share your biblical interpretation. My experience is asking how they interpret a scripture verse instead of telling them, if they even want to refer to scriptures in the first place.
Please consider an SSB post dated July 31, 2018 titled: “Feminism: Is it a rebellion against God?”
I discover one topic that appears to be taboo, is pro-choice, when the intimacy is consensual.
I remember specifically saying my answer as “No” of the the question “Is feminism a rebellion against God?
Then I later remember being asked a great follow up question by Julie Anne “what is your definition of feminism or a feminist”?
I proclaimed that Wikipedia summed it up best even though I thought it is a narrow definition because not all feminist think alike: “Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve political, economic, personal, and social equality of sexes”
Specifically when it comes to feminists’ that lean Conservative and are Pro-life who really don’t have a voice in the Liberal or Conservative Media. Now if we believe the Liberal Media, the feminist movement by appearance as a whole lean Liberal and support Pro-Choice, even if the intimacy is consensual.
My mom was a very strong feminists and I admired her courage and strength, because she stood up and endured a lot more garbage from a society filled with more male chauvinism than most modern day feminists, Though she quite smoking, I got a chuckle that she smoked Virginia Slims. Though some Pro-Life feminists really don’t have much of a voice.
So I asked the question “Abortion on demand: Is it a rebellion against God?’
I never did get a response, maybe it was because of my poor grammar and punctuation.
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On Patheos, regarding a Christian Manosphere group that was criticizing the Captain Marvel movie:
_Patriarchs Think Female Superheros Are Lesbians?_
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When I read the comment with the missing punctuation AND the way in which he was using his beliefs to squelch women, I had to restrain myself. I only gave half of a response which is what you saw publicly: fix the punctuation. BTW, lacking punctuation is bothersome to not just me, and as a moderator, I think it’s important to have as clear language as possible since it’s so easy to misunderstand to begin with.
Nope, had nothing to do with punctuation. I’m not sure if I saw it or simply didn’t want to get into that discussion. Please don’t take it personally.
Thank you for sharing that you found this place to be a refuge during your difficult time. That’s encouraging to know!
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Thanks Julie Anne,
I have 2 daughters and a son who majored in English in college and punctuation is important to them. They write excellently and seem to be somewhat forgiving with me when I fail to use proper grammar or punctuation
In fact they are have expressed gratefulness for the sacrifices I made so they could go to college.
I lacked the education and understanding of proper usage of grammar. I barely made it out of High School as I I spent my childhood changing diapers instead of doing homework, while my mom sacrificed everything she had, working herself into the ground so I could have a roof over my head.
You might be shaking your head with the amount of errors I have made in this comment. haha
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D said (to Necron),
More than likely they won’t be able to convince you to think like them. In fact you may end up being severely rebuked and mis-understood.
— end quote —
Just FYI, and a reminder, I used to be a complementarian.
I was a complementarian up until about my mid-30s, so I understand the complementarian position very well.
D said (to Necron),
Further more this site has self-proclaim feminists that may consider your views as sexiest, especially those that reject Christianity but also those that proclaim to be Christian.
— end quote —
Some on this blog do identify using the label “feminist,” but I do not. I explain why I don’t use that label for myself on my blog _in this post_
I oppose sexism, but I don’t use the word “feminist” (or “feminism”) to describe myself or my views.
D said,
In this case, punctuation and grammar was used as a diversion to avoid having a biblical conversation, which I think you were attempting to have.
— end quote —
Necron was not interested in having a conversation (biblical or otherwise) but was primarily interested in insulting and condemning any women on this site who don’t share his views about women, male hierarchy, complementarianism, etc
D, Necron’s very first post to this thread demonstrated a bad attitude, he was obstinate from the get go, and he referred to women as being property, and said women were not created in the image of God. That was in his very first post.
I did not see good faith from the very start with him.
D said,
I remember specifically saying my answer as “No” of the the question “Is feminism a rebellion against God?
— end quote —
How is the word “feminism” there defined?
I never understand why men who hate or distrust feminism never ask or consider the following:
“Is Male hierarchy / Patriarchy / Sexism / Complementarianism a rebellion against God?”
D said,
I discover one topic that appears to be taboo, is pro-choice, when the intimacy is consensual.
“Abortion on demand: Is it a rebellion against God?’
— end quote —
I am not pro-choice on abortion.
I am pro-life on abortion, in so far as I don’t believe women should use abortion in place of birth control, just because they find the timing of a pregnancy inconvenient, or as an impediment to their current lifestyle.
However, if their life is at risk if they carry to term or give birth, I’m open to abortion in situations such as that.
I think asking if abortion is a “rebellion against God” is a very weird way of putting it.
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thanks for you input Daisy,
I didn’t say all who contribute on this thread are self-proclaimed feminist.
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@ D.
Yes, I know.
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Daisy, when the question “Is Feminism rebellion against God?” I thought about why would simply being a feminist be rebellion against God?
So I had thought about the actual feminists’ that embrace unconditional Pro-Choice when the intimacy is consensual and the woman is healthy enough to carry the child to full term.
This type of abortion in my view is a major platform or pre-requisite for many who proclaim to be a feminist.
In fact is it the only platform that the more liberal feminist practices that I see that would be considered rebellion against God.
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No, I don’t shake my head at unintentional errors. I shake my head at someone intentionally leaving off every period. Big difference. Annnnnnd that he apologized and in that apology, he continued to leave off every period. See what I mean?
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You detailed exactly why I will not label myself a feminist. The word brings different ideas/political positions to mind that I may or may not embrace.
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Yes I see what you mean, he didn’t take what you said seriously enough to proof read. He probably has made those types of errors for many years and have the time didn’t think it was all the important or was never called out on it.
He may struggle with it for the rest of his life.
My sister is a stickler with grammar, But I didn’t discover that until about a year ago.
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You asked a curious question about rebellion. Something that never occurred to me. It was thought provoking.
Now whether or not you openly profess to a be feminist, isn’t going to automatically going to be connected to being rebellious to God.
When a woman has an abortion, I don’t automatically think she is a feminist either.
To go even further than that, I’m sure that many at one time or another has been rebellious toward God and they don’t need a label.
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“The only women you’ve shown any sort of decency to in this thread are the ones who acted in a very traditionally gendered role way, who were super deferential and sweet in replying to you from the very start (that would include Katy).”
“I’m not going to molly coddle you in your supposed victim-hood, like some of the others here have done.”
Daisy – I’m going to push on these statements. I don’t think that I responded to Necron48 in neither a traditional gender role way nor did I coddle him. I was on high alert with this guy, which was why I picked out so many of his abusive words at the very beginning. I tend to have a sarcastic side, which I could have easily responded with and would not have provided any benefit to the situation. Here was my thought process:
At the disclosure of spousal abuse, I immediately took this seriously. This is not coddling someone. This is what I do. This is due to my training and passion to acknowledge, listen, and assist victims of abuse. This doesn’t mean I was giving him a free pass. He was still accountable for his words. I reframed my thoughts about how the words were being presented and asked him if his abusive experiences affected how he read the Bible.
I was at work all day Friday but kept an eye on the thread. Everyone here is pretty good about keeping conversation going and staying in line. I didn’t see anything that stood out of the ordinary.
This morning I began to see that things were beginning to escalate again and I sent a warning. I was about ready to tell Julie Anne that we might need to turn off commenting. I didn’t want to do that because I like how we allow space for people to process. But, the continuing, very pointed dialogue was not healthy.
I have several years of working with children and adults that have experienced trauma and I know that sometimes lashing out is a defense mechanism. This doesn’t bother me, but I want to make sure others here are not affected.
I am also of the mindset that when dealing with someone who is adamant about their thoughts and beliefs and shows no sign of being willing to consider something different, it doesn’t help to keep badgering on after them. Some of the responses back to Necron48 began to concern me as well. In my opinion they weren’t helping make the conversation go any smoother.
By nature I am a very patient person. It doesn’t take much to get me riled up, so I take things slower with people when conversations are a bit more tense. I don’t find this to be a “traditional gendered” response to people, it’s just how I am.
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From the Atlantic:
What the Fight Scenes in Captain Marvel Show
“The latest Marvel origin story brought in $456 million at the box office in its first weekend—on the strength, in part, of a very particular definition of “girl power.””
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Kathi.
I don’t think this guy is going to be swayed by anyone here, no matter how nice, mean, polite, or rude or sarcastic or non-sarcastic they are being.
He’s mercurial. He will be very angry one moment, then apologizing next, then back to yelling at the same person again.
Please go to my blog, skim the comments he left me under the post about him the other night.
He went from cussing me out one moment there, to being sweet and apologizing, to back over here, again yelling at me, then apologizing in one post, in the next, back to railing at me.
He’s all over the map.
In the span of one hour, he’s hating me, back to trying to be friends with me, then he hates me again, and back and forth, and back and forth.
This is true even last night when I was very civil in all my replies to him.
I did not get sarcastic with him at all last night, not until he once more turned and started accusing me of lying – again.
I saw a pattern with him that he gets easily angered by anyone, but especially women, who shows a strong personality.
(continued in Part 2)….
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(reply to Kathi, part 2)
He repeatedly singled out by name, on this blog, the women on this site who he approves of – Katy is one, I forget who the other lady is he mentioned.
Both the women he named appeared to be living out super traditional gender role behaviors, of being very sweet and kind in their replies to him.
Complementarians on other sites do that.
If you go to a complementarian – run blog and you’re a woman using a woman’s screen name to post, you will be expected, if you voice disagreement with the men, to keep your feelings under wraps and very measured.
You cannot be blunt and just say, “I disagree,” or “I think that opinion is wrong,” as a woman on most complementarian blogs I’ve lurked at or posted to.
When posting with a woman’s screen name on comp blogs, you must “dance around” when talking to the men, and be very indirect and show sweetness in any and all your replies, but especially if telling them how much you disagree with them.
They bristle at anger, directness, and sarcasm from women.
Comp men will only tolerate disagreement from women if it’s carried out in that way.
i see Necron as being like that.
I used to be a complementarian, and my comp mother heavily indoctrinated me to communicate in that super sweet manner, never ever be direct and blunt, and try to avoid rocking the boat whenever possible. I see it all the time in comp blogs, sites.
Back when I was a moderator on a busy Christian forum with lots of comps, and I had a lady name there, they’d gripe about obeying my admonishments if they misbehaved on the site.
The moment, however, I logged in under a male name at that site, though, and my male looking name was a moderator, they would change their tune.
They would gladly and instantly start following my direction if I posted as a man. They didn’t gripe or put up a fight, it was just, “Okay, sorry about that.”
The treatment I got under a female name vs. a male one at that forum was like night and day. I got treated better and with more respect when they assumed I was a man.
(And comps claim they value and respect women!! No they don’t.)
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Looks like we’re approaching 300 comments for The Necron48 Show.
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@THE_PUNK_GOD:
Ralph Bakshi’s Wizards meets Warhammer 40K.
Great. Just… great.
“WAAAUGH! DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!”
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_Toxic Fans Fail to ‘Ghostbuster’ Captain Marvel’s $153 Million Debut. What’s Next?
_
“Any trolling had a negligible impact. It only served to heighten the conversation around the film and raise awareness,” says Paul Dergarabedian, senior media analyst for Comscore.
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@Daisy,
I am dubious whether I should even post here, since my name has been used over and over again here to either praise or admonish. The question arises, “Should I defend myself or just walk away from a conversation here that is dancing in circles of anger?”
Since you do not know me, Daisy, assumptions concerning human beings are parcel and part of the internet blogosphere, and it is so easy to pin labels on folks where none exist, another word for that would be “lying.”
I have asked a few times on this blog, since I was born female, grew up on the farm in non-traditional role modeling, became a sitting pew individual (I do not believe in c’hurch membership as it is not commanded in God’s Word) in a very controlling and abusive Baptist c’hurch who promoted ESS, strict gender roles (praising those within it’s congregation for doing so, became friends with comp. men and women who love pushing their views onto the rest of us (yet did not exhibit strict comp. procedure in their own marriages; double mindedness and double standards), and were bold in manipulating, indoctrinating, and controlling those of us who were under their l’eadership paradigm.
Thus, I have asked the question, “What in the world is feminism?” I have not yet been given a clear, concise, and reasonable definition of this word, because frankly, it does not exist as far as the east is from the west. Period. I because a literal born again Christian a year after my father-in-law passed away from a brain tumor. Life was most difficult for me at that time as abuse was ramped up in my marriage and I had to step up to the plate and do what is traditionally called “a man’s work.” Now, I grew up on the farm and frankly, I have tried to explain a few concepts here, and yet you Daisy, evidently believe that I am a traditionalist.
I find that at odds with who I am as an individual, and a child of our LORD Jesus. I chose to bow out of this conversation when anger escalated because I know that one cannot reason with anger and reviling for I have experienced the wrath of male farmers in my community who love to “bitch me out,” going on and on and on (In their bitterness and anger/wickedness) over land/property rights, water rights, tiling issues, right down to “who is first in line at the grain elevator. I have had farmers yell, correct, and condemn me and my husband right to my face, and they these bitter, angry men have the gall to say, “Now you go and tell your husband what I said so we can gets these things fixed!” So these “men” have the courage to bitch me out, yet are weak and cowardice in approaching my husband with their concerns, for many a man in agriculture believes that “women are the weaker sex,” so I will beat up the wife instead of the husband.
So Daisy, I have volumes of experience in working in a traditional “man’s world,” agriculture, and have the wisdom to know when to walk away and also, when to keep my nuts and bolts carefully hidden, so they aren’t stolen by the enemy, so to speak. My Dad and Mom raised us kids up saying, “Keep your cool,” and “Don’t throw gasoline on a blazing fire.”
The fire was a blazing here, Daisy, and all of us were a part of it, including meself. And since I do not believe in complementarianism in the very least (never heard the word in our sweet, rural church back in the day), nor will I ever study, meditate, and believe the Holy Scriptures with that religious worldview, I want to make it clear that I am a woman, a real person, a non-traditionalist, and a born again Christian who loves my LORD Jesus Christ, desiring to serve Him and love my neighbor.
Also, we must go back and remember, there were some pretty vile things said to me on this comment thread. I have heard many a vile word in my time, and been on the receiving end of many a lie, many a wicked action/actions by an individual/individuals, and have been given the wisdom to know when to walk away. One cannot reason with another who is unreasonable/highly charged and emotional. Only when one calms down and when the rush of adrenaline has flowed out of their system, (which may take minutes, days, or even years), can another human being reason with another.
And one the key things that I have learned over the years, is that the words, “I am sorry,” or “I apologize,” or “I can empathize with you,” or “my heart cries for you” with a true heart/emotion that coincides with those words, can humble a person significantly in understanding another person’s world/life story. I rarely hear or experience those words from folks in our modern day c’hurches.
Daisy, because I am confident with my identity in Christ Jesus, so there is no need for me to keep throwing more gasoline on the flames of this comment thread, nor do I choose to pit folks against one another, which is the case concerning this particular article. And I do stand up for myself, knowing that is not sinning, as well as pray for my enemies, which is therapeutic (perhaps this is why Jesus instructs us to do so).
Concerning some individuals here, I too, would recommend counseling, seeking out true friends who can minister to one’s soul, joining a healthy support group, while seeking out healing and loving from our LORD Jesus Christ, for it is not a sin to allow others to help when one is experiencing hardship in one’s life. Good and genuine folks truly care about others, and do not become jealous, envious, and vicious (the viper syndrome) when one succeeds, overcomes, and triumphs in this life.
As stated before, the true Body of Jesus Christ, knows no walls, and follows the Holy Spirit as He leads us, which really angers the “traditionalists!”
I wish we lived closer Daisy, so we could perhaps have a cup of what I call “designer coffee” or a cup of tea and actually visit, face to face. I would find that quite refreshing and perhaps we could learn a great deal from one another. Have had many a c’hurch folk sit at me table and pour out their souls (many have lost siblings and the tears turn into rivers), and I have learned much.
Blessings to you today, Daisy. Just another little tidbit……I too, am a conservative, pro-pro-pro life, and do not believe in global warming (another big time lie.) And I love cows/beef.
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A few collected thoughts.
Hi Mark. I have never seen any of these ‘women are more violent then men’ examples that address the fact that murder rates are astronomically higher men to women. In talking to women who have been in abusive relationships, it is also common for abusive men to turn things around (DARVO) and claim their wives are the abusive ones, often for their attempts at self defense. So I wonder how that skews things.
I wonder how men who have been raped feel about the term ‘divorce rape’.
My state is community property, so marital assets are split evenly. There is also child support, which goes to the custodial parent, regardless of sex. And yet, my friend when she divorced her abusive husband he hid all their marital assets and didn’t pay child support so she got nothing.
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Hi Kathi! I’m sort of catching up on this and I had a similar observation to Daisy, but I also agree with you. Katy is a wonderful person, and her style is to show her heart and empathize with people and she often gets listed by men as ‘one of the good women on this board unlike all these other terrible ones’. I have noticed that more than once and it no knock on her. Her style is not my style, and I never get those comments. It’s interesting.
There is also a pattern of 1. Man comes in talking down to women, 2. Man gets called on it, 3. Man tells sob story. In this pattern, when they receive validation for their story they compliment the women who have done so and they become ‘the good ones’. As opposed to all the rest. This pattern has repeated multiple times. When you sympathized with Necron here, maybe you became one of the good ones. That is no knock on you and I don’t think it’s exactly what Daisy said a ‘traditional gender’ thing. Maybe it’s just centering men? I don’t know.
Generally this completely derails the original topic, and the original issue. It also tries to pit woman against woman. I hate this, because I think we are not pitting ourselves against each other. I appreciate your comments, and Katy’s and Daisys, and all the other women who share on here. We are all our own selves, with different stories and backgrounds and experience. We are not against each other and I will resist any attempts by men to make divisions. Period.
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Daisy, you’ve nailed it with this comment at 9:08 pm:
“He’s mercurial. He will be very angry one moment, then apologizing next, then back to yelling at the same person again.”
Best not to feed the troll after a certain point. He’s unreliable, like quicksand.
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Katy,
I was pretty narrow of my views on what a feminist was at the age of 10 in 1970, I thought a feminist was feminine. She was a woman who smoked Virginia Slims, as a result of their advertising theme “You’ve come a long way baby” and the more “extreme” feminist in that era, was burning their bras.
I was asked a few months ago by a woman to define what feminism is, not really that easy for a man to do, because not all feminists think alike and they don’t share a common view or a common goals. And some women may have their own definition of what a feminist is.
But this is what I came up with in Wikipedia.
“Feminism is a range of political movements, ideologies, and social movements that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve political, economic, personal, and social equality of sexes”
I don’t think the word “range” is recognized in many cases.
“Most” (if not all) in the liberal social media, seem to be more narrow in how they define what a feminist is. There isn’t a “range” of ideologies being championed, unless the feminist has a pre-requisite in their resume’ that includes being socially liberal and pro-choice in most if not all circumstances.
Maybe that is how some feminist believe to be a true feminist,
This in my view is a mis-representation of what a feminist is. when the views of a conservative/pro-life feminist having their own “range of political movements and ideologies” aren’t being recognized.
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Daisy – The only reason why I addressed what you said was because I wanted you to have a better understand of my perspective and thought process. I am not excusing Necron48’s behavior. I believe you when you say he was rude and disrespectful on your blog. I can only address the conversation here. I think two days of going back and forth is a pretty good indication that no one’s mind is going to change. Necron48 is not going to see things from our perspective and he was not going to make anyone here have a change in heart. At that point I thought the escalated conversation was pointless and it was time to stop it. In the end, I was seen by one to be biased and liberal and the other a traditional gendered coddler. I’m still not sure if I’m being understood.
Katy – Thank you for your continued input. I very much understand how your experiences frame the way you approach situations. And, I understand why you bowed out of the conversation long ago. I usually do that too, but in this case I started the discussion and am a content owner and need to be more involved. I have always appreciated how you relate to everyone here.
Lea – Your pattern is spot on. In fact, at one point I texted Julie Anne telling her that I was boggled by him going after her when I called him out on his abusive words. That’s happened more than once here and it always amazes me.
Ted – I fully agree. Best not to feed into the conversation after a certain point. Since I work full time I can’t comment during the day and wasn’t able to continue in the conversation. But, I do continue to read throughout the day and watch how things are going. I’m sure my warning felt like it was out of nowhere.
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Katy & D –
I think the complication from defining feminism is that it is such a broad range. I would consider myself a feminist, but moderate. For me it’s about equal opportunity for everyone to succeed in life, male or female. Sometimes I think we need to focus more on equity (giving people what the need to be successful) versus equality (promoting fairness).
Interestingly, we are watching The Seventies documentary series on Netflix right now and the last episode we saw was on the women’s rights movement. There was a wide range of the feminism spectrum, but during that time it tended to lean more on the extreme side which led to the rise of the religious Right movement. I enjoyed watching it because even though I don’t agree with the extreme side, I was able to see that there was a lot of good that came out of that movement.
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Kathi,
I tend to agree with you that feminism is more broad than what the media is exposing.
I also think the religious right has many dialects that have their own individualized methodologies and interpretations of scriptures. I don’t take issue with those on the religious right that are strictly focused on interpreting what the bible says, provided they include 1 Cor 13:13 (among other verses) in their teachings.
Where I take issue with the more aggressive “methodologies” being practiced by those in the religious right, is when they force their “will” and their own individual doctrine on the congregation. And those that interpret the teaching to love one another as “tickling of the ears”.
Judging by the amount of strife and divorce within churches, I would say we aren’t loving one another enough as it isn’t being emphasized in some of those churches.
I would say to love an adversary (hard for me to do) and in some cases spouses to love one another can be very difficult. (especially when they weren’t in love when they got married)
It is the lack of love and lack of proper mentoring and understanding of what love really because of reckless interpretation of the bible and spiritual abuse, is what is breaking down some churches.
Heck, by the way some of the collisions that is occurring in this thread, I think loving one another is the last thing on the minds of some contributors are having toward others.
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Two comments by Necron48 will not be approved. One is a scathing comment against Kathi accusing her of not being fair in her moderation and for hating men and using profanity. And the next was directed to me accusing me of the same. And he’s engaging me on Twitter, too, but his behavior is better there.
It looks like he’s where he needs to be for now – the dog house.
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And with the cancellation of The Necron48 Show, we return to our regularly-scheduled program.
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D wrote:
That’s exactly why labeling someone a feminist is NOT helpful. How are you going to define where in the range someone is? What religious right tends to do is assume that all feminists are pro-abortion and man-haters. That is not helpful at all. And in fact, it is divisive because there are some real issues within the movement that have needed to be addressed: women being able to purchase homes, have a credit card, get a divorce when there is abuse, maintain a job when when they go on maternity leave, etc. Would women have had those issues worked out in their favor if it were not for “feminists” who have worked hard to draw attention to these important issues?
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Kathi,
Your kind words are appreciated, Thank-you. I fully understand the points you made and respect how you handled the situation, as you gifted and trained in social work, which are strong assets in moderating comment threads. I believe you, Julie Anne, and others here tried to educate and actually help N48 try to understand the article from different reasonable points of view, but not all respond to disagreements well. And the responses near the very beginning of this comment thread were already laced with gunpowder…..and perhaps my comment was a bit mocking and snarky to N48 in laughing at his response. I regret those words on my part for which I apologized, my fuel to the conversation so to speak. I did not know N48’s character at the beginning, but soon realized the fork in the road as the comment thread progressed. As stated before, I searched the Scriptures as to the characteristics of a reviler, and this is someone who loves to taunt and hurt on a continual basis, so there are times when some of us can just dust off our feet and continue on our way, for we are not the blog owners or article contributors. You have a responsibility here and I respect that and you as well.
As far as feminism goes, resources available to us, do not agree on its definition. I agree with Julie Anne’s logic, “labeling someone a feminist is NOT helpful.” She nailed it! When trying to discuss or persuade individuals concerning a topic, there are those who play dirty and call out those with whom they disagree with, “feminists.” This is how individuals or groups shut down the conversation, by name calling, thus rendering the other party as “radical.” And who wants to listen and respect a “radical,” right?
I have learned long ago in my faith walk, that Jesus is not a “liberal” nor is He a “conservative,” neither a Democrat, nor a Republican, or even a “religious right” kind of Savior, and to even paste those labels alongside my/our King is unthinkable to me after studying His Words for meself. I just can’t do that anymore like I have in the past. This life that we have been given as a gift, is just too darn short and too amazingly wonderful (in spite of our circumstances/hardships at times) to just waste it away in debating frivolous things such as “being offended that Captain Marvel is a woman” within theological debates. I am saying this not to offend the owners/moderators here, but to call out those who are more worried about a fictional character, rather than the real people/human beings who are struggling and need help…..their help, our help.
If my faith and my life are defined by Captain Marvel, or a Disney prince or princess theme, or a John Piper sermon on how women should not give men directions, or a comp. woman telling me that I need to submit to my husband in everything (and yet I hear her bossing her own husband around quite well), then, this life Jesus has freely given me is pretty lame and senseless.
I will say this, that SSB was a tremendous source for me in healing since leaving the Baptist c’hurch system. There are some pretty great and wonderful folks here who actually do care for and about people, and for me it was a safe place when my heart was broken by religion (visible c’hurchianity) as well being married to a comp. husband……I personally would be “labeled” as an egalitarian, even though both words are not seen anywhere in the Scriptures.
I have found some pretty great fellowship here at SSB, continuing to learn and grow from other’s comments, many of whom have such valuable insight to the circumstances that surround us.
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Julie Anne,
Please check your DMs over on Twitter.
I just sent you one a moment ago, and it is pertinent to some of the discussion in this thread, and about your blog generally.
You may delete this post of mine later if you like.
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Katy.
My mentions of you above were not meant as any kind of put-down to you or the other ladies that Necron mentioned.
You and one or two other ladies in the thread gave him very measured responses. And Necron adored that.
He specifically named some of the women in this thread by name who he gave a personal stamp of approval to.
I was not among them.
Why? Because I was more direct in my replies to him.
This whole thing by me is a critique is Necron’s behavior (or complementarian men in general), not of you, or Kathi, or the other women.
Guys like him expect or demand that all women address guys like him and their sexist commentary with measured, cool, calm, or with super deferential replies, otherwise, they get very angry and accuse women of being “Jezebels” and “usurpers” and so on.
He came on to this site first thing referring to women as property, objects, subhuman but then has the audacity when some women in the thread such as myself don’t hold back or tip toe around when replying to him.
(At one point, I was very civil towards him, I removed all sarcasm, etc, but he later turned on me again anyhow.)
Anyway,
I was critiquing that complementarian male reaction to women (of them expecting all women to tread gently when replying to them), NOT Kathi, or you or the other ladies, some of whom Necron said he thought highly of.
But I think my comments were taken as a put down or insult by maybe yourself or Kathi?
But that was not my intent.
I was being critical of of how so many complementarian men expect women to relate to them on blogs or in real life.
If you reply to them in a way they deem appropriately feminine, they will be polite to you.
They don’t show politeness to women who don’t follow their Gender Role Script of Behavior For Women, as they think it should be. That was my main point.
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Julie Anne said,
“That’s exactly why labeling someone a feminist is NOT helpful. How are you going to define where in the range someone is? ”
That is what I said months ago on this blog under a different post and got chewed out by a few commentators in the comment box over it.
I find that the word “feminist” (or “feminism”) means different things to different people (it does not merely mean “equality for women” to everyone who hears it), so I choose not to use it to describe myself.
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Kathi,
“In the end, I was seen by one to be biased and liberal and the other a traditional gendered coddler. I’m still not sure if I’m being understood.”
You have taken my comments the wrong way.
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I don’t want to get deeply into it, but I very much question why it doesn’t mean that to everyone who hears it anymore. I used to buy the argument that that wasn’t what it meant, but I don’t really anymore. I very much question the sources. I certainly don’t see it as a derogatory term at the point, even though others use it that way.
We should all be for equality of women. Obviously (as this thread and many others show) many still are not. So there is still room for feminism as far as I’m concerned.
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Lea said,
“Generally this completely derails the original topic, and the original issue. It also tries to pit woman against woman”
— end quotes —
Please see my long comment to Katy a few posts above this one.
My discussions through this thread about certain ladies getting his approval because they spoke to him in super genteel terms was a criticism OF HIM, not of the women!
I do not know why this is being misunderstood or taken the wrong way, but I was criticizing the male entitlement and male complementarian expectation that all women should only talk to them in very calm, detached, gentle ways, affirm them, and never, ever get short, cranky, blunt, or critical towards them.
When I moderated a Christian discussion board that had many male complementarian participants, and I moderated under one account that had a male name,
the men who were sexist there never gave me a problem there, when I posted under what they assumed was a male identity.
Whenever I posted and moderated under my usual feminine looking name, however, they would refuse to get in line but complained.
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This was my point exactly, Daisy, although I may describe the reasoning a bit differently (not sure that it’s ‘genteel’ terms etc). It’s men pitting women against each other. I’m not cool with that and I’m not participating.
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Lea said,
“n talking to women who have been in abusive relationships, it is also common for abusive men to turn things around (DARVO) and claim their wives are the abusive ones, often for their attempts at self defense. ”
— end quote —
That is probably why so many blogs and forums for women domestic abuse survivors don’t permit men to post comments to them, or all men are put on moderated status.
Also, several years ago, when I was on Amazon’s site looking at various book titles,
I noticed that in the Reviews by customers section under books for women about domestic violence (and similar topics), that a lot of people with male names (or who said they were men), were highly critical of those books and giving them one star ratings.
Some of those male reviewers were absolutely LIVID about the books that were teaching women what red flags to look for in abusive men, how to get safely out of abusive relationships, that there is no excuse for a man to abuse his partner no matter what he says, etc.
And what some of those male reviewers did was gaslight women, or say that men are the “real” victims in society or in marriages, etc.
At that stage, I was new to reading about all those topics, so I was like ‘what is going on.’
But several women (who at that time had way more life experience and/or knowledge then I did, so they knew what was going on) left responses to those nasty reviews to say, “This guy is more than likely an abuser of women.”
And those women leaving comments explained how your usual abusive men acts when talking about male abusers of women, they will often flip things around to say that THEY specifically (or men in general) are victims, but their ex-wife (or women in general) are the aggressors.
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Lea said,
“I wonder how men who have been raped feel about the term ‘divorce rape’
— end quote —
I had an online woman friend several years ago who often got easily angered at things in her life that went wrong.
She had a couple of blogs and used to post to a forum where I hung out.
Every time she experienced a frustration in life, no matter how minute and small, she would compare it to rape.
(And I don’t think she was ever actually physically raped).
It was like her “go to” figure of expression.
If she went to the Kroger’s store to buy a box of Oreo cookies, but they were all gone by the time she went to buy some, she’d come back to her blog or the forum to scream at how she was, “Raped by Kroger’s selling out of cookies.”
I am serious. No matter was too small to this person to compare to rape.
My other lady friend from that forum later confided in me, “I had to stop following her blog, the tacky comparisons of her every trivial life problem to the real horror of rape more than turned me off.”
To this day, I cannot understand how any woman can compare getting a snag in their pantyhose or something equally stupid to rape.
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