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Before we get into today’s article, we’ve passed an important milestone here. Today, I noticed in my Facebook’s “On This Day” feature, that it is the 4th year anniversary date of the judge’s decision on the defamation lawsuit brought on by my former pastor, Chuck O’Neal of Beaverton Grace Bible Church (BGBC) vs. me and 4 others. Our attorney filed an anti-SLAPP counter suit which meant that O’Neal and BGBC had to prove that our case met the legal definition of defamation. It did not. Not even one phrase that I used (or anyone else used) met even the first tier of the defamation definition (that we had intentionally lied). In order Chuck O’Neal to have won, he had to prove that we knowingly lied about him, AND, we lied with the intent to harm. Judge Fun dismissed the entire case.
When I think back on four years, the amount of information I have learned is remarkable. So much of that has been because of you. Thank you. God has restored what the locust has eaten. Through my pain and now the information I’ve learned along the way, SSB has been a safe and a growing place for me and for others. Yea God.
Here’s the note that appeared on my timeline 4 years ago by a friend:
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Would your church be able to help someone in the midst of a crisis? How equipped are they?
In February, I got involved in a situation in which a mom of many children discovered that her husband was sexually abusing their children. The world as she knew it had stopped. Everything. Not only did she need to deal with her own emotions and grief, and care for her children, but she also had to make plans for her family’s future. This was quite an undertaking and I’m sure it will take months of adjustment trying to find their new normal.
This situation was local for me, so it gave me the opportunity to see what help is available to people in this type of crisis.
A while ago, I went a choral concert which was held at a local church. When I went into the ladies restroom, I noticed this on the wall:
It occurred to me that we don’t have anything like that posted in our ladies’ restroom. What a perfect place to post something on domestic violence – a place where a woman’s abuser won’t see her getting this helpful information.
But, then, in the main hallway, I found many more resources. Check this out:
Part of the behind the scenes ministry work at SSB is what I call “triage.” People will contact me privately with immediate needs. I listen to them and see how I can support them so that not only their immediate need is met, but there is a plan for future needs to be met. Kathi, by the way, has been so helpful with this.
A few times, I have been able to shoot Kathi a message while I’m on the phone or messaging with someone in a crisis. Kathi has then been able look up resources in that person’s area so I can give them immediate resources. Having someone who cares and can give resources is so important in a crisis.
What I have come to realize, through hearing these stories, is that many – and perhaps most – churches are ill-equipped to handle a crisis.
This church I visited is capable of sending a woman in a crisis to local organizations so she can get the immediate help she needs. Notice they are referring OUT of the church – referring to those who are trained to deal with these types of issues. That’s important.
As it turns out, the woman I mentioned above now attends my church (You can read an update on her situation here, or feel free to contact me if you would like to help Grace). The first church she went to for help did not give her much assistance. Additionally, there was very little follow-up care. This is a case which will require long-term care. I am hoping my own church can do better. I’ve never been active in my own church in the same capacity that I help people who reach out to me here at the blog. I hope the tools I have learned here can benefit people at my own church.
I know a situation of domestic violence at BGBC. Allegedly, my former pastor did not allow a battered wife to attend support group meetings for survivors of domestic violence. He told her that she must meet with him at church. But he never met with her because it meant he was alone with her. She, too, did not get the help she needed as far as counseling. She also did not get the financial and transportation help she needed to get back on her feet. She was abandoned spiritually, emotionally, and physically.
We have willing and able bodies at my church, but in speaking with my pastor after church on Sunday, there are no real plans in place in the event that another mom in a crisis comes to the church needing help. I’m going to try to work on this as my August project for my church, along with another project for the blog that Kathi and another SSB elf has been working on related to domestic violence. (I will fill you in on that soon.)
So, I’m very curious. I’d like to get an idea of what a typical church looks like when it comes to helping those in the midst of a crisis. Can you give me an idea of what you’ve seen in your local churches?
The following are the types of questions I’m interested in hearing about. I want to know how well (or not well) local churches are able to meet the needs of people in crises. Any response along the following lines would be helpful.
If you are a regular church attender, does your church have a plan to help people in a crisis?
If a mother and children came to your church’s office needing food, money, lodging, would your church be able to meet those needs?
Do you have someone at your church who knows what is available in the community and can help her as she connects with agencies who can give her ongoing financial, medial, mental health, or housing support?
Do you have someone designated to make meals for people in need, someone designated to oversee financial assistance, childcare, or ongoing support (each area might require a different person or a group of people).
Does your church refer out to licensed therapists?
How would your church handle a domestic violence situation?
Also, if you have personal experience with a church and how they met your needs in a crisis, I’d love to hear your story, too. You can post in the comments or e-mail me at spiritualsb@gmail.com. If you have a story, I’d like to know the kind of crisis and how the church assisted you. Is there anything they did that you did not like? Is there something that could have been done better?
The more feedback I get on this post, the more information I will be able to share with my pastor, and thus, be a better help for those in a crisis, so thank you in advance for your participation. ~ja
Spiritual Sounding Board 
KAS
I need some help…
Sounds like you’re making excuses for pastors who do NOT Qualify.
According to Pauls qualifications for elder/overseer. Oy Vey!!!
1 – First you say…
you know pastors who meet the qualifications…
“I have known pastors who meet the qualifications you specify…”
2 – Then you go on to say…
you doubt if any of them have met ALL of the qualifications…
“I doubt is any of them have met ALL of the qualifications perfectly
ALL of the time…”
So which is it?
You know pastors who meet ALL the qualifications?
Or, you doubt if any of them meet ALL the qualifcations perfectly?
This sounds like doublespeak. Yes?
Did Paul ever say to Timothy and Titus???
Hey guys, Here’s this list of qualifications for elder/overseers…
But, do NOT take these qualifications to seriously???
NO potential elder has to meet ALL these Qualifications – perfectly???
Use your own judgement on which qualifications to “Ignore” and “Twist?”
NO – Paul said, an overseer Must Be Blameless, Holy, Just.
innocent, without fault, above reproach, undefiled by sin.
Just for the record… 😉
I also doubt if any pastors meet ALL the qualifcations. 😉
3 – And you also say…
“If you expect sinless perfection, then you will always be disappointed.”
Well, I do NOT expect sinless perfection, Because…
That’s NOT one of the qualifications. AAARRRGGGHHH !!!
Why do you change the subject?
WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, have to expect, must expect..
If someone wants the position of pastor/elder/overseer…
They belive Paul when he says a pastor/elder/overseer…
Must Be Blameless, Holy, Just. Manage Well their family
innocent, without fault, above reproach, undefiled by sin.
And if they do NOT meet these tuff qualifcations…
These un-qualified imposters should GO.
Go and do something else.
The real question is…
Why would someone who says they know Jesus…
Who says they believes the Bible is The Word of God…
Take a title/position, pastor/elder/overseer???
That they do NOT Qualify for???
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This is getting a bit silly. You’ve listed Paul’s qualifications for eldership. No disagreement on that.
You then go on to set a standard of sinless perfection for elders that is just plain unrealistic. They should indeed live the faith out in real life, but if you set this standard for them, do you apply the same standard to yourself? The apostle Peter sets out how they are to act – would you never allow one single mistake in trying to do this? The NT has numerous examples of how those leading the the apostolic churches didn’t always get it right. That did not disqualify them.
Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders. Do you submit to the elders? Or is this a cultural construct? Or mutual submission – which submission in the NT never is? I bring this up because it is not difficult to find examples of those who criticise church leaders – often rightly so – for their failures or worse, but when it comes to what God has commanded them to do in relation to elders, suddenly find every reason under the sun why it does not apply to them. I hope you are not one of them!
You can end up with leaders who want to lord it over the flock on one side, and sheep who would not submit in any shape or form on the other. They are both being disobedient to the NT.
Much better are leaders who really are mature to rule, and the younger in age or the faith who acknowledge the leaders’ responsibility for the church as a whole with appropriate respect, and dare I say it, submission.
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So am I understanding theology that portrays itself as Christianity as this: we, the Body of Christ are required to sit under a paid professional clergy man and submit to him and those who has kissed up to the right people in getting elected by those who deem themselves quite important and more spiritual than the rest of us, in order to be saved by the sacrifice of Jesus, our LORD?
So in submitting ye, one to another, as Scriptures command, and ministering ye, one to another, also as Scriptures command, (we must remember, believers in the early ekklesia met together daily, broke bread together-ate meals- together daily, and shared one another’s burdens daily, not once a week, we are now required to submit unto a leadership network that our Father, who art in Heaven, never commanded?
Anotherwords, KAS, leaders are ‘to rule’ (your words, not mine), over the rest of us, when in fact, Jesus showed us what true rulership looks like, and it was that of a servant.
I personally, have never met that type in an institutional setting to date, but have been blessed to know believers outside of the hierarchal system, who actually don’t believe they ‘qualify’ to be leaders, and yet serve their Master (Jesus) clothed in humility. True ‘rulers’ don’t desire leadership positions of any kind in Christianity, in fact, most run from this type of governmental system.
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KAS, are you in a leadership position of any kind within your church?
And would you say that if a believer is not under an ‘eldership’ as you describe, then that person is labeled by ‘the c’hurch’ as unsaved and not spending eternity in the presence of our LORD, Jesus?
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KAS
Sorry you think it’s a bit silly, discussing Paul’s tuff Qualifications.
I guess you would think it’s a bit silly, because…
You do NOT know any pastor/elder/overseers who meet them. 😉
Sorry you think Paul is setting a standard of sinless perfection.
But – Paul NEVER said, ”sinless perfection.”
And – Amos NEVER said, ”sinless perfection.”
You, KAS, call Pauls standards, ”sinless perfection.”
If you do NOT like Pauls’s tuff qualifications for pastor/elder/overseer…
I give you permission to Feel Free
To ”Ignore” and ”Twist” Paul’s qualifications any way you wish.
That’s what pastor/elder/overseers, do anyway. 😉
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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“You then go on to set a standard of sinless perfection for elders that is just plain unrealistic.”
Ah, I figured the tyranny of “sinless perfection’ would rear its meaningless head at some point. Usually from the filter of total depravity/inability or imputed Righteousness. You always have sin leveling to fall back on, too. :o)
Is walking in the light, sinless perfection? Or, is our very existence sin? What does our Lord call those who follow him?
Augustine sure started a ridiculous number that was worked into Protestantism ST. The Catholics figured a way around this with indulgences and priests who absolve them.
Everything has been tried except for individual choice, responsibility and accountability!
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A Amos Love – you have neatly dodged the question as to your half of the bargain!
But I get your point. Paul sets out qualifications for elders. No-one meets them. Therefore there are no elders in the church.
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The Greek texts does not have “submit” to elders. There is no such word in Greek.
KAS’ is espousing the new authoritarianism, a ruling elite over the priesthood of believers. Sounds like NeoCalvinism.
The NeoCalvinists take exception to the priesthood of all believers, the gifts the Holy Spirit has bestowed upon believers, and the ability of believers to run their churches (including with congregational votes) and do just fine.
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KAS
“you have neatly dodged the question”
In the Bible…
Can you name one of His Disciples who called them self…
Can you name one of His Disciples **who had the Title…
Under-shepherd? 🙂
Or pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
Seems these Titles/Positions do NOT exist in the Bible…
For one of His Disciples…
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Katy – I held a position of leadership in two churches, but a long time ago.
My ideal is each individual member playing their part. This doesn’t work though if no-one has some kind of oversight – if only to stop those from taking over whose ‘ministry’ is an ego-trip, or whose ‘gifts of healings’ stem from their involvment in spiritualism.
I think it good if the pastors and teachers have a full-time secular job. Nevertheless, sometimes they need to be full-time for the church due to time constraints – preparing Christian teaching can be extremely time-consuming – but I share your distaste for a professional ministry. They can get very out of touch with the real life their fellow believers have.
Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honour, especially those who labour in preaching and teaching ;
I’m sure leadership is as much by example as anything else. Yet someone has to stand in front and guide. I think the Anglican concept of a vicar has got this right, by more accident than by design. A minister rather than a manager. But I’m not frightened of the word rule, even if some have abused it. God does require submission to such leaders.
I don’t think of the church as an institution, rather a gathering of believers. A fellowship, shared life. The area in which I probably differ from you is that this gathering needs some structure. God has appointed the various ministries in the church for this purpose.
I do not believe, never have believed, and never will believe the church is the means of salvation. Church attendance does not define who a genuine believer is. So you can be a believer and not ‘go to church’; it’s not God’s intention for us though that we have an individual faith, nor that we should neglect to meet together. However, if what you have been in is a caricature of the real thing, it does no harm to have a long ‘holiday’ from it to recuperate!
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KAS
You quote 1 Pet 5:5 @ AUGUST 10, 2016 @ 2:11 AM…
”Likewise you that are younger be subject to the elders.”
Here’s the whole verse…
1 Pet 5:5 KJV
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder.
Yea, all of you be subject one to another,
and be clothed with humility:
for God resisteth the proud,
and giveth grace to the humble.
humility = a modest or low estimate of one’s own importance.
Then you, KAS, ask…
“Do you submit to the elders? (I do pay attention to older believers.)
Or is this a cultural construct? (Don’t know what this means.)
Or mutual submission (Sounds good to me.)
which submission in the NT never is?” (Hmmm? That’s NOT accurate.)
When you re-read, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV, above, and it says…
Yea, all of you be subject one to another,
And when you read Eph 5:21 KJV
Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
So, Yes, I kinda like ”mutual submission”
Because, ”ALL of you be subject one to another”
Because, “Submitting yourselves one to another”
”IS” found in the NT.
And ALL His Disciples called themselves Servants.
NOT one of His Disciples called themselves leader.
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Lydia:
“Everything has been tried except for individual choice, responsibility and accountability”.
Amen to that. My four year old asked me yesterday, “Why do evil people not love God?”.
My son gets the gospel. He’s a sweet kid.
He gets the choice thing.
KAS, the gatherings need some structure.
I agree completely.
“I’ll make the coffee, you tell me about your week and then we can pray about it all”.
How’s that?
Or do you mean an order of ‘service’, ‘worship’ and a ‘sermon’?
Where did Jesus talk of any of this?
Where do these religious activities come from? (Rome perhaps?)
I’m in my thirties and I often meet with younger believers. I notice that those who eagerly desire to walk by faith and live an honest and godly life do listen as I share my thoughts and experiences. This is the reality of ‘ministry’ and a life that is ‘hid with Christ in God’. No special meetings required. Fellowship where the Lord is the subject and I don’t need a ten point sermon.
KAS, what structure do you think we ought to have? Should be built 2 million dollar temples and start membership classes and take offerings (not for widows and orphans mind you) but for salaried religious leaders?!
No thanks.
I’m happy to ‘minister’ not for filthy lucre.
And people flock to my house because I make excellent coffee and I don’t charge for my chairs and ears.
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KAS
You write @ AUGUST 10, 2016 @ 2:11 AM…
“You’ve listed Paul’s qualifications for eldership. No disagreement on that.
“You then go on to set a standard of sinless perfection for elders”
(Thems NOT my standards, please, blame Paul.)
“that is just plain unrealistic.”
(Hmmm? Why did Paul do that? Make those qualifications so tuff?)
“They should indeed live the faith out in real life…”
(But, “live the faith out” is NOT one of Paul’s qualifications.)
(Why did you add that?) (Is that ”your” standard for overseers?)
“but if you set this standard for them,”
(Thems NOT my standards, please, blame Paul.)
“do you apply the same standard to yourself?”
Yes, I was ordained, in leadership, movin-on-up the hierarchical ladder.
And, I also “Ignored,” Pauls tuff qualifications. 😦
I just listened to, submitted to, my pastor/elder/overseers, as I was taught.
I had been invited into the sacred pulpit, teaching from time to time.
When they told me I, Amos, had gifts.
And had some of the **Gifts* given by God in, Eph 4:11.
Who could argue with the great wisdom of these men. (Sarcasm)
But – Pro 29:5, says…
A man that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net (Trap) for his feet.
The trap had been set – I was flattered – And I jumped right in…
Amos, was someone important, special, clergy class, a Gift from God…
I bought the lie…
And, when you buy the lie – You start to die…
Now – Pro 20:17, says…
Bread of deceit is sweet to a man;
but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.
I was blessed, it wasn’t long before my mouth was full of gravel. Ouch!
And I realized I, Amos, was NOT that special. NOT a Gift from God. 😦
And I realized I, Amos, did NOT meet those tuff qualifications.
It’s a long, long, story but, eventually, I asked to many tuff questions…
And felt the wrath of those “loving” pastor/elder/overseers…
And I had to leave that 501 c3, that the IRS calls church…
And I had to leave a bunch of people that I loved…
It was a very dark time… Lot’s of tears, for lot’s of years…
The benefit? – I had NO place else to go – But to Go To Jesus…
It took a couple of years, but, eventually…
I realized I, Amos, did NOT meet those tuff qualifications from Paul…
And I ripped up those papers…
Officially removeing myself from that position, that lie…
Seems in the Bible…
NOT one of His Disciples called them self pastor. Or leader. Or reverend.
Today – Being A Servant of the LORD is just fine.
Today – Being one of His Disciples is good enough.
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,”My ideal is each individual member playing their part. This doesn’t work though if no-one has some kind of oversight – if only to stop those from taking over whose ‘ministry’ is an ego-trip, or whose ‘gifts of healings’ stem from their involvment in spiritualism.”
Someone has to be in charge of the adults….. especially the women.
Jesus called himself a servant as did Paul. I bet you are really into the horrible translation of Hebrews 13:17.
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KAS,
The Greek text does not have the word “rule”. There is no authoritarianism in the Greek text. Humble servants of God are to persuade and that is what the text is talking about.
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“. My four year old asked me yesterday, “Why do evil people not love God?”.”
Out of the mouths of babes!
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“God does require submission to such leaders.
First of all I do not for one minute believe that Elders are required polity. And I certainly would not agree with your definition of Elder, obviously.
But I do have a question. Does an adult have the ability or even the right to decide if an elder is ruling well or not? You see the problem, right?
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Lydia
You ask…
“Does an adult have the ability or even the right
to decide if an elder is ruling well or not?”
1Tim 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour,
Rule is Strongs #4291 – Greek = proistemi
Thayers – Has “rule” as…
1) to set or place before
1a) to set over
1b) to be over, to superintend, preside over
1c) to be a protector or guardian
1c1) to give aid
1d) to care for, give attention to
Seems to me Today’s elders are NOT ruling very well at all.
1c) NOT being a protector or guardian- WELL
1c1) NOT giving aid – WELL
1d) NOT caring for – WELL, NOT giving attention – WELL
IF today’s 501 c3, elders were ruling well…
Being a protector or guardian of His Sheep, His Ekklesia – WELL
Giving aid to His Sheep, His Ekklesia – WELL
Caring for His Sheep, His Ekklesia – WELL
Giving attention to His Sheep, His Ekklesia – WELL
There would NOT be so many of His Sheep, His Ekklesia, Leaving…
leaving the 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation,
That the IRS calls church.
Today, believers are leaving ”Today’s Corrupt Religious System”
In Droves – By the millions – Becoming NONES and DONES…
And today’s un-qualified, fake, pastor/elder/overseers…
Have to take a lot of responcibility for folks leaving…
For this Exodus from the Bondage of
”Today’s Corrupt Religious System”
Because, today’s un-qualified, pastor/elder/overseers
Do NOT rule well…
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KAS,
A few points regarding your posts…
As far as I can see, Amos hasn’t been calling for “sinless perfection”. In quoting Paul, he says that elders need to be “blameless” and “above reproach”. This doesn’t mean “sinless” — it means a lifestyle characterized by integrity, faithfulness and humility. If they make mistakes, they either readily admit to them, or realize their faults when confronted. Amos’ point is simply that there are very few self-styled leaders in churches who meet this standard.
To my memory, whenever an apostle pointed out bad or unChristlike behaviour in a congregation, he called out the whole congregation, because they were all involved in it. That’s why he called on everyone to correct it. So, in these cases, there was never any question of disqualifying an elder, because no elder was solely culpable.
On the other hand, whenever Paul saw fit to mention elders or other individuals by name for egregious acts, it seems they were disqualified, because their individual behaviour was no longer “blameless”.
Why?
Personally, I’m fine with structure. But I don’t understand why “structure” must be equated with “hierarchy”.
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KAS, Thank-you for your response to my question. I appreciate your honesty concerning the structure of hierarchy, although not in total agreement with you.
A. Amos Love, Your testimony was deeply moving, I have never heard such words from a born again believer in Jesus Christ. God bless you as you minister to many of us here and where you are, for humility is but a fossil in the realm of evangelicalism. Grew up in a poorer church system and never heard the word “leadership” at all; it wasn’t in the hearts and minds of those attending, Praise the LORD! And no one, including the guy wearing the black suit standing at the man-made pulpit system, lorded over one another; I just didn’t see nor experience that. In today’s hierarchal church system, the word “LEADERSHIP” is spoken of more than the name of Jesus, is practiced MORE than the Ways of Jesus, and is used as the cornerstone/foundation to lord (control people’s lives) it over others in making ‘a name’ for themselves. Peter Drucker’s business model of “LEADERSHIP” is alive and well within the western church, is it not?
Velour, lydia00, Salty, Serving…..Please keep contending for the one/only true faith in Christ Jesus. I dare say that I have learned more in the last few days here than all of my adult years attending the Baptist/Assembly of God churches. “Where the Spirit of the LORD is, there is freedom.” Being a slave to Christ is polar opposite to the enslavement by religious folks. Guess the Apostle Paul found that out while imprisoned, did he not?
Still in prayer for Kathi and Persephone, that our LORD will give you sweet fellowship that is so needed right now. May our LORD be with you and guide all of you here at SSB.
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Thank you, Katie. You bring up such an important point. Too many in Christendom are totally eaten up with “leadership”. It is their focus and they bring it to every issue. They honestly do not believe that adults are able to lead themselves.
You know what I find especially strange about this Focus? That one of the precepts of our constitution is that adults “could” govern themselves without a Leader (monarch). It was an idea that would not die. We fought War over it. We amended the Constitution over that concept. Where did such an idea come from? There are many who think personal responsibility is from the evil one. They call it selfish in order to guilt people to follow humans instead of our Lord.
They bring this contemptible concept of following humans into the body of Christ. They attempt to put a mediator between peoplr and our Lord. They attempt to do the same in marriage.
The first mediator was the serpent.
The body of Christ should be filled with people who are encouraging others to grow in wisdom and maturity so they in turn can model that for others. It is not a static function. It is not in office. It is not leadership. It is service to others.
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AMEN lydia00.
You made my whole day “The body of Christ should be filled with people who are encouraging others to grow in wisdom and maturity so they in turn can model that for others. It is not a static function. It is not in office. It is not leadership. It is service to others.”
I would wash your feet anytime. God BLESS you!
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Velour – I had 1 Peter 5 in mind where elders excercise the oversight, and the younger are to submit to them. This is part and parcel of apostolic teaching. It’s not that complicated, and the overseers have detailed instructions on how they should carry out their ministry to guard against authoritarianism or other base motives.
I reckon you have Heb 13 : 17 in mind. All of the main English versions translate this along the lines of Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Obey and submit. Linguistically, the words behind this translation have a range of meanings, including being persuaded and yielding as well as the usual renditioning. Without having learned Greek to a high level, it’s not possible to know which precise meaning to give in this particular context, and an interlinear is no help, cannot substitute for the hard work of mastering the vocabulary, grammar and syntax.
Now because some men have abused this verse, and pushed it beyond its normal meaning to create little empires of subservient sheep, there is a temptation for non-linguistic reasons to try to lessen the force of it, and water it down a bit. Appeal is made to the various ranges of the Greek like persuade and yield. That’s understandable, but wrong, unless you have the necessary level of Greek to be able to comment. I haven’t, so have to go by the linguistic expertise of those who translate, which in this case is pretty consistent.
Men who do abuse this verse will have to give an account, a phrase which doesn’t usually attract so much attention for hidden meanings in the Greek! It ought to be a great comfort to those who have encountered fierce wolves drawing disciples after themselves: no-one will ever get away with this.
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” Without having learned Greek to a high level, it’s not possible to know which precise meaning to give in this particular context, and an interlinear is no help, cannot substitute for the hard work of mastering the vocabulary, grammar and syntax.”
Not true. There have been scholars who took the same words and showed the context in which they were not used in other parts of the NT. They also took the words NOT used that COULD have been chosen and showed how they were used in context in other places. It is a HORRIBLE translation and negates the very words of Jesus Christ.
I would expect a very authoritarian translation from those laboring within a church state environment. One thing I always recommend is people go online and read the LONG preface to the KJ translation. It is quite interesting. That is just one example of what we should take into consideration. People have no sense of history and how political interpretations and translations really were. Same with Creeds and confessions. We have been lazy in our approach to translation.
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“You made my whole day “The body of Christ should be filled with people who are encouraging others to grow in wisdom and maturity so they in turn can model that for others. It is not a static function. It is not in office. It is not leadership. It is service to others.”
I would wash your feet anytime. God BLESS you!”
God bless you, too, Katy.
I honestly believe what I wrote above was the intention for the Body. The irony off all this is comparing the rules the in the OT with few rules in the NT for the people of God. Love God, love others. That is because it is all about the indwelling Savior.
Pride wants “place and position”. Pride wants to control others. Pride insists others submit to them.
A believer wants people to grow up in wisdom. To even move past them in such. Some of the most qualified people from my past to model what I think “elder” really means were some older women I grew up around in the church. Quiet servants that people naturally gravitated to because they were so wise and forthcoming in truth.
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Katy
Thanks for the kind words. Much appreciated.
Yup – One day I was recognized, ordained, as being part of the
“Five Fold Ministry Monster” and…
A “Gift from God” to the Body of Christ.
Apostles – Profits – Evangelists – Shepherds – Teachers
As the church lady would say – Isn’t that special…
NO way, being told, and believing, you’re a “Gift from God”
can effect your “Humility Quotient.” 😉
Humility – a modest or low estimate of one’s own importance.
For the record…
I NEVER met anyone who claimed to be in…
“The Five Fold Ministry Monster” who was actually humble…
Having a modest or low estimate of their own importance. 😉
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Then Amos, this “Gift from God,” challenged the Status Quo… Ooops…
And quickly I became “Rebellious.”
NOT willing to “Submit to God Ordained Aurthority.”
“Divisive.”
YUP – Danger – Danger – Danger
Being a Berean… Reading the scriptures for yourself…
Asking hard questions, disagreeing, with pastor/elder/overseers…
Will be hameful to your Spiritual Health. Oy Vey!!!
Yup – One day a Peacock… Strutting my beautiful Colors…
The next day a feather duster… 😦
Oh Well – Such is life in “Today’s Corrupt Religious System.”
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.
Peacock Strutting
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Thanks to everyone, here and at The Wartburg Watch, who has taught me so much about Spiritual Abuse, heavy-Shepherding, Membership Covenants, authoritarianism, and other abuses in the Christian church, especially with the rise of NeoCalvinism, I was able to write a comprehensive review on YELP about my ex-church in Silicon Valley to warn others.
Members inside the church, who want to escape and realize there’s something terribly wrong with it, have thanked me for my YELP review.
Mine is the 1-star review, the only one as Headless Unicorn Guy (H.U.G.) has said was not written in fluent Christianese.
Please vote that my review was “Helpful”, so that others can find it on the internet.
Thank you!
https://www.yelp.com/biz/grace-bible-fellowship-of-silicon-valley-sunnyvale
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“I had 1 Peter 5 in mind where elders excercise the oversight, and the younger are to submit to them. This is part and parcel of apostolic teaching. It’s not that complicated, and the overseers have detailed instructions on how they should carry out their ministry to guard against authoritarianism or other base motives.”
The overall concern in 1 Peter are groups of believers all through Asia Minor living among Pagans. Often in their own household. Some were slaves. People with few choices except how they comported themselves among pagans. (that is the big message and most miss it because they are so focused on wanting people to submit to them)
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A few thoughts…
Amos: “It was a very dark time… Lot’s of tears, for lot’s of years…
The benefit? – I had NO place else to go – But to Go To Jesus…”
This is where I’m at now. Lots of PTSD symptoms after I talk about the beast that is the Christian Religious System.
God often brings broken believers across my path who are not able to ‘make sense’ of the beast. When we open up the bible and work through all this it is triggering.
Katy, your comments are a blessing to me.
I feel emotional thinking that I would give anything to have fellowship with the people here at SSB who genuinely love Jesus and want to ‘get it right’.
The churches of men are filled with you people and they’re struggling with religious nonsense and men who would be Lords.
But God is good.
All we have is the truth that God looks at our hearts and knows our desires. To know Him, love Him (and others) and share Christ with those who haven’t heard. This is all I live for now.
Keeping it simple (outside the system).
I was reading 1 Peter 5 this morning and something caught my eye: verse 7 tells us to cast all our cares upon God.
V5 covers subjection/submission one to another and then we are told to run to GOD with our cares.
It struck me as interesting that v6-7 doesn’t say to run to some guy called The Pastor.
No. It says GOD.
If there were ever a good spot between the lines to stick in a few words about ‘The Pastor’, wouldn’t you think this would be the spot? Haha
But no. Nope. Not there!
Go to GOD. The Lord is my Shepherd says David.
He got it.
😊🚀
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I agree current English usage and Anglican church organisation found its way into the King James Version – ‘bishop’ being the most obvious example.
Since then, it has been thoroughly revised twice in America alone, a country without an established church or a monarch (debatably!). ASV or NASB. The word ‘bishop’ has gradually fallen out of favour, but the obey and submit of Hebrews retained. The discussion ought to be not about ‘why we don’t need this anymore’, but rather how in practice does this work out.
The problem today is allowing modern cultural norms to affect the translation into English. The NT goes against our excessive individualism and obsession with personal autonomy just as much as it goes against authoritarianism.
Everyone knows scripture can be misused for personal gain or ambition, it predicts and describes this itself. Because fierce wolves can come in or elders be subverted does not mean you get rid of eldership/oversight. You deal with the problem which is false men, not the existence of overseers as such.
Just as men can become proud of a religious title (reverend, PhD), the fellowship members can become too proud to submit to oversight, wrongly believing everythinig is just between God and themselves, or between themselves and those they know will agree with them! Oversight is part of God’s means of blessing individuals, including correcting them when they have gone wrong or are doing wrong. God comes to men through other men. As they mature, it ought to be less necessary, but no-one every gets beyonds needing it from time to time.
Plenty of churches seem able to make this work, why make it complicated?
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KAS
Hmmm??? Hebrews 13:17???
Was wondering…
Who are the leaders referred to in Heb 13:17?
In reading, ALL of Heb 13, over and over again…
I noticed there are NO “Titles” or “Positions” mentioned…
In ALL of Heb 13.
NO pastors. NO elders. NO overseers. NO deacons.
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KAS,
“Everyone knows scripture can be misused for personal gain or ambition, it predicts and describes this itself. Because fierce wolves can come in or elders be subverted does not mean you get rid of eldership/oversight. You deal with the problem which is false men, not the existence of overseers as such”.
KAS, I get the impression that you are seeking to fit the concept of oversight (you call it ‘eldership’) into the Sunday Religious Temple Church Club template.
It is not being fair to the early church order.
The ‘elders’ were simply aged believers who were asked to provide oversight to the younger believers.
Religious groups today seek to imitate and role play Paul’s epistles out as though they were written to their ‘church group’.
This is folly.
Elders DO exist. There are godly aged men all over ‘the church’. They are not in leadership and they are usually the quiet, humble ones who are overlooked. Many have left the institution called ‘church’ because they see how false it is.
Men who command salaries love to set up ‘eldership boards’ and ‘leadership committees’ because they serve their purpose which is to set up a little kingdom for themselves.
I desire oversight in my life from godly elders and I HAVE it, not in the form of sermons or scheduled meetings with seminary professors. I have a godly example in my relatives and friends’ parents. I have ‘done a Paul’ and identified who they are (appointed them in my CITY) and this is no different than what the religious clubs are doing.
Actually yes, it is different.
My elders aren’t titled and they don’t command filthy lucre (1 Peter 5).
I think you are trying to fit oversight into the Sunday club format and imho the two just don’t go together.
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The leaders are those who spoke the word or message of God.
As for all the other designations you list, they are found elsewhere as you know. Nouns and verbs to describe what God has appointed in the church.
If you reject the existence or relevance of pastors elders overseers or deacons, that is between you and God and your conscience, and I don’t want to get into a fruitless discussion leading to ‘controversy and disputes about words’ in the way you seem to worry about titles and positions that I just can’t relate to.
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Salty, the above post was for A Amos. I agree with a lot of what you say, I don’t see the church as an institution but a living body, and I very much agree it’s good to have people who do the job that the various NT passages describe rather than men with the title but without the gifts.
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KAS
You write @ AUGUST 12, 2016 @ 9:35 AM…
“The leaders are those who spoke the word or message of God.”
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I, Amos, have “spoke the word or message of God” to you.
Do you consider me, Amos, a leader? Your leader?
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Salty, Lydia, Velour, Katy, Serving Kids in Japan, and others…
Have, “spoke the word or message of God” to you.
Do you consider them leaders? Your leaders?
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Maybe the word leader in Greek, in Heb 13…
Has a different undestanding than today’s english definition?
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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KAS
Maybe the word leader in Greek, in Heb 13:17…
Has a different undestanding than today’s english definition?
Haven’t you ever wondered? Why? In the Bible?
NOT one of His Disciples called them self leader.
NOT one of His Disciples called another Disciple leader.
And, Why Jesus, taught His Disciples NOT to be called leader…
For you have “ONE” leader – the Christ.
Mat 23:10-12 NASB
Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant”.
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
Humble = a modest or low estimate of one’s own importance.
Know many “church leaders” who fit this definition of humble?
Mat 23:10-12 – The Message
And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them.
There is only “ONE” Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
Do you want to stand out? – Then step down. – Be a servant.
If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you.
But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.
Maybe the word leader in the Greek, in Heb 13:17…
Has a different understanding than today’s english definition?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
If not now? – When?
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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KAS
Here’s some understanding NOW for Heb 13…
“have the rule over.” ”Leader” in modern versions.
Heb 13:7 KJV
Remember them which have the rule over you,
who have spoken unto you the word of God:
whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.
Heb 13:17 KJV
“Obey” them that have the rule over you,
and submit yourselves:
for they watch for your souls…
Warning – If the emphasis, in your 501 c 3, IRS corporation church…
Is on Obey and Submit and NOT on…
for they watch for your souls…
Run – Run for your life. Spiritual Abuse is on the way.
Heb 13:24 KJV
Salute all them that have the rule over you,
and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
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This Greek word “hegeomai” is 28 times in the NT.
Only 3 times as, ”have the rule over,” ALL in Heb 13.
Modern translations often use “Leader” here.
It is Strongs #2233 hegeomai. In the KJV it is translated 5 different ways.
KJV – count 10, think 4, esteem 3, have rule over 3, be governor 2,
Thayers has Hegeomai as to lead, and to go before.
A brethren who goes down the path before you? – Who you esteem?
Or – I’m the leader/boss? Who you “Will” Obey? – Out of Fear?
Seems the qualification to who we “Obey” and “Submit” to are…
Those – ”who have spoken unto you the word of God:”
Those who – “watch for your souls.” Heb 13:17.
NOT a “Title/Position” pastor/overseer/elder…
There are NO “Titles” in ALL of Heb 13.
BUT, someone who has given you God’s Word.
And watches for your soul. 🙂
This “hegeomai” is concerned about me, others, His Sheep, His Ekklesia.
NOT concerned about there own Power and Authority.
Speaking the word of God and watching for my soul.
Not demanding that WE, His Sheep, “Obey” and “Submit” to them.
KAS, I’ve spoken the word of God to you. Yes?
And, I’m “watching for your soul.” (Whether you believe it or not.)
Can I demand that you “Obey” and “Submit” to me?
Jesus loves me this I know…
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“Since then, it has been thoroughly revised twice in America alone, a country without an established church or a monarch (debatably!). ASV or NASB. The word ‘bishop’ has gradually fallen out of favour, but the obey and submit of Hebrews retained. The discussion ought to be not about ‘why we don’t need this anymore’, but rather how in practice does this work out.”
Just a few points. America has very ingrained “Protestant” thinking we brought from Europe that has evolved and is still evolving. It is a miracle we exist at all, frankly. Thank God our Founders were reading Locke and some even despised the doctrines of Calvin and the Puritans. But it still lingered…the whole caste system package. But then look at the explosion of denominations thereafter. And that is both a good and scary thing. Freedom always is. This is a huge topic that deserves a ton of research and debate. There is no straight line on this one.
Next, you say “thoroughly revised”. In what way?
“The problem today is allowing modern cultural norms to affect the translation into English. The NT goes against our excessive individualism and obsession with personal autonomy just as much as it goes against authoritarianism.”
Cultural norms like women now voting? Going into professions? Whenever I hear a Christian focus on “excessive individualism” and “obsession with personal autonomy”, I think uh. oh. Here we go. Caste system.
This is another huge topic. Most authoritarians despise individualism or personal autonomy in others. You can’t control people like that. Are you even remotely suggesting that an individual cannot have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or the indwelling Holy Spirit?
I go to war on this one. :o)
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“As for all the other designations you list, they are found elsewhere as you know. Nouns and verbs to describe what God has appointed in the church.”
Here is a fun but daunting exercise. Do some serious research on the Greek used for “appointed” and compare and contrast the various meanings in context.
That is the irony of Koine Greek. One word, many variations of meaning. That is why divorcing context, both spiritual and historical, is a big problem. Jesus Christ is the best filter for interpreting the letters.
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“I think you are trying to fit oversight into the Sunday club format and imho the two just don’t go together.”
Yes. It’s not a static function in a 501c3, for crying out loud. And not all NT groups had elders. The Corinthisn church had been around for quite a while and all we know is “Chloe had people”. :o) Crete might have needed elders because ‘all Cretans are liars”. Most letters are addressed to the church as in the groups meeting in that area…..not addressed to elders to implement as the leaders. As for today, 2000 years later and not occupied by the Pagans or hassled by the Judaizers, you would think there would be less need because more are spiritually mature. Sadly, the evil authoritarian men of church history made sure that did not happen often with banishments, punishments and even burnings for daring to dissent from the church “elders” of that bloody evil time….in the Name of God, of course.
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KAS
It’s interesting to me that “hegeomai,” “have the rule over,” “leader.”
Is also translated “esteem” 3 times. Some contrast – eh?
Philp 2:3 KJV
Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in
“lowliness of mind” let each Esteem other better than themselves.
1Thes 5:13 KJV
And to Esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake…
The same word, “hegeomai,” which many refer to as leader/boss,
(Leader, a high place, and Jesus always recommended the low place.)
Is used when encouraging those who need to be in “lowliness of mind”
and to “esteem” others better than themselves.
KAS – Know many today who call themselves pastor/leaders?
Who operate in “lowliness of mind?”
And “esteem” others better than themselves?
The way I see it now… If someone insists that they are a leader,
And they want to “have the rule over someone,”
then I can check them out with these quidelines.
They need to be in “lowliness of mind”
and “esteeming” others better than themselves. 🙂
This “hegeomai” is different then today’s leader/boss. Yes?
Don’t find many “pastors/leaders/elders” with “lowliness of mind?”
esteeming others better then themselves today. 😦
Or submitting one to another.
They seem to want the TOP spot. The honor, the glory.
You can tell which “hegeomai,” – “leader/boss,”
Or, “guide who goes before” who watchs for your soul.
Is present when confronted with opposition or a different opinion.
What fruit do WE, His Sheep, see when a “pastor/leader” is challenged…
“Accusation” “ Argument” “Ridicule”“Name Calling” “Put Downs”
Or, “lowliness of mind?” “Esteeming others better then themselves?”**
“Submitting, one to another?”
NOT much “discernment” is needed when looking for
“lowliness of mind.”
And “esteeming” others better than themselves. 🙂
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KAS
Here’s Heb 13:17 in a version that I like
Heb 13:17 NKJAV.
Be persuaded by, trust, and obey, those you have confidence in
those who went before you and you esteem
as they guide you and think to submit yourselves:
for they watch, pray and are paying attention to your soul…
That’s the NKJAV.
The “New King James Amos Version.” 🙂
Be blessed in your search for truth… Jesus…
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KAS
Here’s why I like the NKJAV understanding NOW for…
”Obey” in Heb 13:17…
The Greek word for “Obey” in Heb 13:17, is the root word for faith.
It is Strongs #3982 peitho – and is translated in the KJV as
KJV – persuade 22, trust 8, obey 7, have confidence 6, believe 3,
Hmmm? persuade, trust, have confidence, believe.
Maybe that word “Obey” then, is different
from how we understand “Obey” today. Yes?
The very next verse, Heb 13:18, uses #3982 peitho also.
Only this time it is NOT Obey. The word is Trust.
Heb 13:18 KJV
Pray for us: for we TRUST we have a good conscience,
in all things willing to live honestly.
Paul uses #3982, peitho, as ** Confidence.**
Gal 5:10.
I have ** Confidence** in you through the Lord.
Luke uses #3982, peitho, as Persuaded,
Luke 16:31 KJV
…If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be Persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
Luke 20:6
…all the people will stone us:
for they be Persuaded, that John was a prophet.
Maybe we need to go to Jesus, and ask Him what…
He really means here in Heb 13:17, for “Obey.” 😉
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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A. Amos Love,
Wow, what a great Bible study we are having here and these truths are giving me such joy this morning. It has the words “FREEDOM IN JESUS CHRIST” singing through my soul! Oh, what a Savior we have!
Have never seen ‘the church lady’ before…….what a great, great, great laugh! The parody really doesn’t miss the mark at all, it’s spot on! Oh, how many of these shadows we have encountered over the years and have survived their petty little wars….in churches of all places! Unbelievable! No, entirely believable!
And Praise our LORD, the peacock feathers were lost, A. Amos, for now your testimony and witness for Jesus has become an encouragement to all of us here, especially us wee ones (children of God)who have survived spiritual abuse. What you have suffered is now being used for good to those who love Christ. Alleluia!
Salty,
Read and meditated upon 1 Peter 5 this morning. Praise God for you in pointing that out for my soul needed to hear those Words of encouragement and be reminded that He is still in control of everything. Thank-you for those precious verses.
1 Peter 5: 11 “To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.”
Seems like many within visible Christianity seem to desire that dominion for themselves while Jesus stands outside of the locked, bolted, and security camera laden doors……..always waiting to be invited in amongst the group.
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In fact, I believe I need to make a copy of these last comment threads filled to overflowing with great Scriptural references for future Bible study. Yes, done deal!
Thank-you A. Amos Love for ALL of the research involved in helping us understand our Holy Scriptures in context. Spiritual Sounding Board has been such a blessing to me with all of you here, for it fills my soul with hope and love. May God bless all of you here.
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Katy, I was thinking the same thing. ‘Prove all things, get rid of the BS I mean hold fast that which is good’ 😉
Lydia wrote: “Are you even remotely suggesting that an individual cannot have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or the indwelling Holy Spirit?”
This IS the issue at the end of all this, isn’t it?
Either God guides us individually or He does not.
Side note: I’m in Hannover being a tourist today and I saw the main Lutheran ‘church’ in the city and it has a huge pentagram on the top, alongside a nice statue of our friend Marty Luther.
Google it.
I had a good laugh and then reminded myself that the Most High does not dwell in these buildings.
Freedom indeed 😊👍
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Salty
Yes…
“This IS the issue at the end of all this, isn’t it?”
“Either God guides us individually or He does not.”
As best I can figure…
Jesus, NEVER taught His Disciples to follow a Mere Fallible Human.
Jesus ALWAYS taught His Disciples to ”Follow Him” – Jesus
Except once, where they were to follow a man with a pitcher of water. 🙂
Mt 4:19 …Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
Mt 8:19 … I will Follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Mt 8:22 …Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
Mt 9:9 … Follow me. And he arose, and FOLLOWED him.
Mt 16:24 ..let him deny himself, take up his cross, and Follow me.
Mt 19:21 …thou shalt have treasure in heaven: come and Follow me.
Mr 2:14 …Levi… Follow me. And he arose and Followed him.
Mr 6:1 …came into his own country; and his disciples Follow him.
Mr 8:34 …let him deny himself…and Follow me.
Mr 10:21 …One thing thou lackest…take up the cross, and Follow me.
Mr 14:13 …meet a man bearing a pitcher of water: Follow him.
Luke 5:27 … Levi… (Jesus) said unto him, Follow me.
Luke 9:23 And he said to them ALL If any man will come after me
……let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and Follow me.
Luke 9:57 …Lord, I will Follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Luke 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me…
Luke 18:22 …distribute unto the poor… and come, Follow me.
Luke 22:10 …bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house…
John 1:43 …Jesus… findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.*
John 10:4 …and the sheep **Follow him: for they know his voice.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice… and they Follow me:
John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him Follow me…
John 21:19 This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God.
……. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.
John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come,
…… what is that to thee? Follow thou me.
Seems today’s self proclaimed “church leaders”
In “Today’s Corrupt Religious System”
Do NOT think what Jesus taught His Disciples is important. 😦
They are busy making disciples after themselves. A NO,NO, Acts 20:30.
Why follow a Mere Fallible Human??? Who calls them self leader???
When WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, can FOLLOW the ”ONE”
Who calls Himself…
The ONE Shepherd – The ONE Teacher – The ONE Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Hi Katy
A big Yes @ AUGUST 13, 2016 @ 5:03 AM…
“It has the words “FREEDOM IN JESUS CHRIST”
singing through my soul! Oh, what a Savior we have!”
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Yes – “what a Savior we have!! And, Jesus wants us Free.
2 Cor 3:17 KJV
Now the Lord is that Spirit:
and where the Spirit of the Lord is,
there is liberty.
Gal 4:26 KJV
But Jerusalem which is above is free,
which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:31 KJV
So then, brethren,
we are NOT children of the bondwoman, (Today’s Religious System)
but of the free.
Gal 5:1 KJV
Stand fast therefore in the liberty
wherewith Christ hath made us free,
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But, false brethren will speak out against our Freedom
To bring WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Ekklesia, into bondage,
Gal 2:4 KJV
And that because of false brethren unawares brought in,
who came in privily to spy out our liberty
which we have in Christ Jesus,
that they might bring us into bondage:
Bring WE, His Sheep, His Kings and Priests, His Ekklesia…
Into the Bondage of self proclaimed leaders in the Non-Biblical
501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation,
That the IRS calls church.
I’m in agreement with King David…
The Lord is My Shepherd
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Salty, you are in Germany?
“.This IS the issue at the end of all this, isn’t it?”
Yes. It IS the issue. And we must tell people! 1st John is a great resource!
“Either God guides us individually or He does not.”
Yes. And that can be very beautiful when a group like that comes together. Doesn’t mean that it is easy, either. But it is the great beauty of the priesthood of believer. Back in the year 2000 Al Mohler insisted on adding an “s” to the priesthood of believer in the baptist Faith and message. Only a few people caught onto the significance. You see, Mohler does not believe you can be a true believer unless you are under the authority of the leaders of a local church. (Btw, he isn’t)
Sixteen years later after his promoting 9 Marks, Driscoll , Acts 29 and The shepherding cult apostle, CJ Mahaney….. we get the “s”. It is loud and clear. He wants us to not trust that we can be indwelt with the Holy Spirit. There are many out there who want to be your Holy Spirit. Nine Marks even refers to them as human mediators who hold the keys for us. The first mediator between God and humans was the serpent. Need I say more?
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lydia00,
Fascinating leadership, is it not? What are these men afraid of ……Jesus? Let’s just say all of us here at SSB have the pleasure of taking a cruise together and for reasons beyond our comprehension, the ship destructs and we are jettisoned into the ocean. All of us swim for shore on an abandoned island with just the clothes on our backs. And for another providential reason, one of us here at SSB happened to have a small Bible stuffed into their pockets. Now, there are no men and women holding any theological “offices” (clergy and leadership network) so to speak, just plain simple laity. And we are stranded there with only the resources available to us on the island.
Is it possible then, that all of us would be going to hell because we are not under the leadership of a “p’astor” or a “bishop” or a “pope” or an “elder- some actually believe this is an office when it is not. As believers and followers of the Risen LORD, we cannot worship Him in spirit and truth without a college/seminary degreed pastor, reverend, minister?
Wow! Just amazed how highly the religious hierarchy thinks of themselves…….as mediators between our Father, Who art in Heaven and us. And here my Bible says that place is reserved for only One……Jesus.
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Katy, they are scared people won’t need them if they discover the Holy Spirit. It is all about power, position and yes, money in some cases. The big leaders have the young pastors hanging on their every word, buying their books, going to their conferences where they make bank off Jesus. It is a racket. I call it the Christian Industrial Complex. I used to be very involved with it. To my ‘everlasting shame. I can’t help but warn people.
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Lydia, yep. I live here. 😊
And warning believers about the ‘Christian Industrial Complex’ is pretty much a weekly sport I partake in.
Of the extreme variety.
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Salty, is there a Christian Industrial Complex in Germany? I am aware of its American variety being exported to the UK.
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Lydia, this is what I’m seeing here:
A deadness in the ‘traditional’ (no surprises here) Sunday clubs (Lutheran/Reformed/Evangelical free/Mennonite) and what is happening is that people (youth especially) are rushing over to what I would call ‘Charismatic Light Churches’.
These are generally conservative in their doctrine (not aligned with Pent/Charo denominations) but with the rock band and light show extravaganza (this would be ‘the worship service’).
So the flesh is drawn to the ‘hipness of the music’ and with the toned down message. Hillsong and Bethel are very popular here in non Charismatic churches.
From the discussions I’ve had with people going to these cool clubs, there is a shallow understanding of what it means to walk with God and be guided by the Holy Spirit.
A lot of English speakers here are gobbling up the usual ‘Christian junk’ of the Piper, MacArthur, Chan and Washer variety.
It won’t be long before the Good News is no longer good.
Bethel/Jesus Culture/Holy Spirit Nights are also putting on concerts here which is highly appealing to the naive believers. Their parents have no idea what any of this is about and I’m feeling like a massive watchdog on constant alert.
It’s pretty scary to be honest.
Not much discernment going on.
I would love to be wrong and crazy but I think the Charismatic thing is spreading and not in a good way. Definitely something big going on here but it leaves me with chills.
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Thanks for the information. It sounds similar to the shallow seeker movement here which focused on being relevant and attracting youth to entertainment not truth. Most became mega churches. As the Neo Cal resurgence wanes here, we are also seeing a rise in a quasi Calvinist charismatic shepherding cult types like the newly reimaged Mark Driscoll.
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Lydia . Are you even remotely suggesting that an individual cannot have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ or the indwelling Holy Spirit?
Absolutely not!! I believe in the priesthood of all believers, and that Christ is the head of every man. Hence I do not believe there are any human mediators between man and God. Many of the blessings I have received in this life did not come through the ‘official’ church and its leadership. In fact, sometimes it didn’t believe such things were for today!
This does not mean there is no structure within the chuch as a living body of people. I’ve seen it tried, and it doesn’t work.
I’ve also seen the absence of blessing or its withdrawal where Christians have got into rebellion against those structures that he has revealed through the NT in both church and home.
I do not believe the obey and submit are absolutes in the sense this verse is not everything the NT has to say about this subject.
I’m not a leader, so when I look at the translation of Heb 13 with its obey and submit, I see what Christ want from me in relation to leaders in the church. The word leader occurs 3 times in that chapter, and towards the end we are told to greet all your leaders and all the saints. If there were no leadership, this would be redundant, you would only need to greet the saints.
Leadership and all the other words associated with this has more to do with the overall direction of the church as a corporate body, not unwarranted interference in the members’ private lives. This latter is often where much abuse occurs, with men taking it upon themselves to be little gods.
Members should not undermine good leaders who are doing their best – bolshy sheep can drain the very life out of them, and the shepherding error was a massive overreaction to try to correct this.
Control-freaks on the one hand and splendid isolation on the other are not the hallmarks of NT Christianity.
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Lydia,
I don’t believe the Neo Calv/Charo groups are here yet. Maybe in big cities. I’m in a smaller town so it’s the Arminian Evangelical Free groups which are adopting the Charismatic style music and teachings.
As English services become more common no doubt that junk will spread here too.
KAS, you wrote:
“This does not mean there is no structure within the church as a living body of people. I’ve seen it tried, and it doesn’t work”.
Do you think we need to have organised religious meetings in order to exhort and encourage one another in the faith? Honest question.
Do you think God is able to provide leaders without them self identifying as such? 😊
Do you think that those believers who heap up teachers and are deceived by those claiming that “Jesus is the Christ” will listen to genuine guides and overseers?🤔
Is it possible that God is guiding those sheep who hear His voice and follow Him?😊
I don’t live in isolation just because I reject the beast that is Christendom.😏
God is the giver of gifts.💪
God enables His people as He sees fit.😉💨
Leaders don’t get their gifts from attending International Leadership Colleges where it costs $10,000 for a qualification to serve.🤖
God is able.🚀
I fully believe that those who would heap up teachers will get just what they desire.🐷
But those who want to be led by the True and Great Shepherd will be guided into truth.
How good are smartphones. 💁
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“I’ve also seen the absence of blessing or its withdrawal where Christians have got into rebellion against those structures that he has revealed through the NT in both church and home.”
He did not declare a specific polity for every gathering for all time. That is the irony. And be careful about declaring a home structure. It would be rare, for example, for a single grown woman to live alone in the 1st century and not with extended family. Most women were in arranged marriages very young. One reason why “love your wife” was a radical suggestion. :o)
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Salty, yes the Ev Free Church is starting to become known here as quite cultish like Shepherding cults. Hillsong is downright scary from what I have read. Like church franchises or something.
It is fascinating to hear from people in other countries. My Brit friends tell me Neo Cal is making headway there.
Glad you are here!
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Do you think God is able to provide leaders without them self identifying as such?
I think the body of believers recognises them – they emerge, but do not appoint themselves. If you believe in ordination at all, it ought to be no more than a recognition of something the person is already doing, and is gifted for. It is not to put them on a pedestal.
I’m not against some training in the bible for pastors and teachers, but even this is no substitute for having the necessary gifts. Useful, but not always essential.
The problem today is we have the church as the authentic body of believers who need to meet together, and an institutional church often made up of nominal believers (that is, unbelievers) going through the religious ceremonies and duties. The difficulty is that in practice these two overlap. There are plenty of ordained men who really are gifted, and whose churches are made up of real believers, but who are in churches where the same denomination down the road last had the gospel preached in it 100 years ago, and is now just going through the motions. Where the grandparents were the last genuine believers.
You talk of how God guides and speaks to us. This can be individually, through our own reading of scripture, but I think also through the rest of the body (I’m a great believer in this!), and possibly here I may disagree with you, though pastors and teachers. They are intended to instruct, to guard and to correct. They are one of means of guiding and speaking. A much safer route to hearing from God than so much mysticism being touted these days!
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“They are intended to instruct, to guard and to correct. They are one of means of guiding and speaking. A much safer route to hearing from God than so much mysticism being touted these days!”
Yikes. Safer? I think not. Christendom has been rife with charlatans, tyrants and hirelings since it was institutionalized. I firmly believe people were held back. A personal relationship with the indwelling Savior was NOT what they were guiding people to.
Had that not been the case, history might have been different as in cures for the plague sooner instead of the church teaching it was a punishment from God as one example of many.
The historical facts are that church leaders have sought to keep people ignorant and dependent on their interpretation and rules. They are still doing it today.
I am often struck by the parallels in Scripture. Jesus Christ reserved his anger, for the most part, toward the Religious leaders of His tribe. They were blind guides. And then we see history repeating itself.
The only cure for this is for people to seek and know their Savior personally. I realize that is too messy for most people. And I can sense that as I read the Gospels and Acts. :o)
What we see described in the New Testament for the body are temporal functions not static offices. Static offices bred Pharisees.
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Thanks Lydia.
KAS, it is possible that we differ because I filter the epistles through my ‘Jesus filter’.
Christianity has an idol: the Bible.
I don’t hold my copy of the Bible in the air and proclaim, “this is the Worrrd of God”.
To me, Jesus is the Word.
Paul speaks of Pastors and Teachers.
Jesus said there is ONE Pastor/Shepherd and ONE Teacher/Instructor.
Not “ten thousand”, not ten.
Just one.
We are told that God who IS Spirit will dwell in His people and guide them into truth. Jesus never once said he would set up Leaders and Teachers. He told Peter to take care of his flock. To protect them from the wolves, no doubt.
Do you think Jesus was lying about being the ONE Pastor and Teacher?
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Salty – Jesus is indeed the Word, a person and not a doctrine!
But we get our knowledge of the Word from the ‘word of God’, the gospels and epistles. And to a lesser extent, the OT too.
I think you are making a mistake if you set one part of the NT against another. Are the epistles of John worth less than his gospel – or Revelation?
Acts says the Holy Spirit appoints elders, and Paul talks about the ascended Christ giving gifts. Much of what is in the epistles would not have made sense untl after the resurrection, part of the much which Jesus still had to say to his disciples.
Doesn’t Hebrews teach us some wonderful things about Christ?
I think some have made an idol out of their understanding of the bible; knowledge puffs up. Sometimes manifested in too much time spent intellectualising about Paul in Romans, for example.
I don’t really think any evangelicals effectively think of the bible as the third person of the Trinity, despite the frequent criticism that they do!
I think you are confusing the fact that the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth with the various means he uses to do so.
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KAS,
I hesitate to call ‘the Bible’ the Word of God. I believe Jesus is the Word of God. Christians have turned a book into an object of worship and Jesus has been forsaken.
Hebrews is a very rich book, I agree.
But as I commented earlier, Jesus made it clear in Matthew 23 that his disciples are not to call men “Rabbi” or “Master” as there is only ONE.
A quick glance at earlier verses in Matt 23 and you can see that Jesus took issue with ‘leaders’ taking titles of importance.
As I’ve commented earlier, a quick search in BLB reveals only ONE shepherd in the NT. Jesus.
Yes, yes I know Paul wrote this and that.
Paul contradicts Jesus.
Shall we ignore Jesus’ words? (Please tell me what you make of Jesus’ plain speech)
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KAS, I am fully aware that the men who love the preeminence in the Sunday Religious Clubs would call me a ‘liberal’ and probably worse for daring to question parts of the Bible.
“Prove all things, hold fast that which is good” 1 Thessalonians
At what point in the proving process are we given a break from shaming?
is it wrong to honestly ask the question, “what if Paul is a false prophet/apostle?”
Is Paul beyond question?
I don’t know if he is or isn’t.
But asking the question is not sinful. It is being diligent.
Jesus said, “you have One Master. Call no man a Rabbi”.
Paul says differently.
nothing to see here let’s pretend there’s no issue –
? Is this being a Berean?
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KAS
Naughty, Naughty @ AUGUST 15, 2016 @ 12:38 AM…
You write…
“I’ve also seen the absence of blessing or its withdrawal
where Christians have got into rebellion
against those structures that
he has revealed through the NT in both church and home.”
Hmmm? Where have I heard this before??? Rebellion???
Anyone wantta take a guess???
Oh Yeah! From today’s “Corrupt Religious System.”
Oh Yeah! From pastor/elders/leaders who are ”Bullies.”
Who must be right – And refuse to submit one to another. Eph 5:21.
This sounds like “Spiritual Abuse.”
Trying to Put fear on folks, saying, “God will withdraw his blessing.”
When WE, His sheep, His Disciples, do NOT see it your way.
I’m so sorry for you…,
The God that you serve, will withdraw his blessing from you…
Based on wheter you are ”in rebellion” or NOT, to…
“those structures that he has revealed through the NT.”
If that’s true, you should be afraid, very, very, afraid…
Unless, of course, you know everything, and do everything correctly.
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
THEIR shepherds have caused them to go astray,
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray;
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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A Amos – there is little point discussing this. You cannot get away from the idea of a false religious system – and I agree with you on not submitting to that or its leaders.
But believers can and do get into rebellion against those with oversight and responsibility who take their need to care for them very seriously. Not every pastor is a false shepherd.
In the home, husbands who won’t be considerate to and love their wives find God stops answering prayer. Wives who refuse to acknowledge their husband as ‘head’ find the same thing until they do. That kind of thing.
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“But we get our knowledge of the Word from the ‘word of God’, the gospels and epistles.”
From my research on this, the scripture is usually referred to as scripture or ‘as it is written….’
“I think you are making a mistake if you set one part of the NT against another. Are the epistles of John worth less than his gospel – or Revelation?”
I think you are projecting. She mentioned a “Jesus” filter which seems to be imperative or we do have Paul contradicting Jesus Christ and even John.
“Acts says the Holy Spirit appoints elders, and Paul talks about the ascended Christ giving gifts. Much of what is in the epistles would not have made sense untl after the resurrection, part of the much which Jesus still had to say to his disciples.”
Chapter and verse on Acts, please. (Interesting the Holy Spirit used casting lots to appoint Matthias. :o)
“Doesn’t Hebrews teach us some wonderful things about Christ?”
Yes, Jesus Christ is the full representation of God. I wish more Reformed folks would take that to heart.
“I don’t really think any evangelicals effectively think of the bible as the third person of the Trinity, despite the frequent criticism that they do!”
They most certainly do and it has reached to ridiculous proportions. They effectively shut down the Holy Spirit. Scripture is an aid. We are blessed to have it. Many did not or were not allowed to read it due to illiteracy or church state rules. A priest or church official had to interpret for them, often with lies, that propped up the reigning authorities. Yet, I would not presume that these peasants could not have the Holy Spirit and truth because they had no access to scripture. It was more likely in spite of than because of religious leaders.
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Where does it say in the bible that wives who do not ‘acknowledge their husband as head’ have their prayer go unanswered? Because I seem to have missed it.
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Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God Acts 20 : 28.
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Salty
Amen…
“I don’t live in isolation just because I reject the beast that is Christendom.”
But, woundn’t the proper spelling be, “Christen-dumb?” 😉
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Amen…
“But those who want to be led
by the True and Great Shepherd will be guided into truth.”
John 6:45 KJV
It is written in the prophets,
And they shall be ALL taught of God.
John 14:26 KJV
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name,
he (the Holy Ghost) shall teach you all things…
Deuteronomy 4:36 KJV
Out of heaven he made thee to hear His voice,
that He might instruct thee:
Psalms 32:8 KJV
I will instruct thee and teach thee
in the way which thou shalt go:
I will guide thee with mine eye.
John 16:13 KJV
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
he will guide you into ALL truth…
1 John 2:20 KJV
Ye have an unction from the Holy One,
and YE (WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, His Kings and Priests.)
know all things.
*unction = anointing – the inaugural ceremony for priests
*know = perceive, discern, discover.
1 John 2:26 KJV
These things have I written unto you
concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing
which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and ye need NOT that ANY MAN teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things…
Yes Salty
Jesus is able… 😉
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Thanks. I was trying to remember what you were referring to and it is . You did read onto to verses 29-30, right? :o)
Ok, so anyone with a title of elder was appointed by the Holy Spirit? That is exactly what is being taught out there in many churches. This is a perfect example of taking a description and making it a prescriptIon or law. Even Paul knew better.
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“Where does it say in the bible that wives who do not ‘acknowledge their husband as head’ have their prayer go unanswered? Because I seem to have missed it”
The comp Talmud which they keep rewriting or adding to? : o)
The problem goes back to their refusal to accept that Kephale does not denote authority. Their entire house of cards collapses if kephale does not mean authority. There were certainly very clear Greek word for authority that could have been used instead but we’re not except in 1 Corin 7 concerning marriage. Hee Hee.
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Lea – Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives, bestowing honor on the woman as the weaker sex, since you are joint heirs of the grace of life, in order that your prayers may not be hindered. 1 Pet 3.
This is addressed too husbands, and their disobedience to this will hinder their prayer – either they will not be able to pray (guilty conscience perhaps) or more likely God will not listen to them.
I don’t see why on the same principle the wife who refuses to ‘submit’ as detailed earlier won’t have the same experience. Peter goes on to say For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and his ears are open to their prayer. When we are not righteous, then answered prayer dries up. Doesn’t mean we are not Christians or may not be blessed in other ways.
I’ve come across 4 testimonies in recent times where women have tried to get round the ‘husband is the head of the wife’ teaching Paul sets out, and God has not blessed them until they have, even very unwillingly, acknowledged this. Then he did abundantly (in one case still waiting). I think this is an illustration.
I think the 1 Pet verses on this explain what is going on here, although I agree the husband is the specific focus. I hadn’t really noticed this verse before, nor the quotation from the Psalm although I must have read it often enough over the years.
I think a similar principle sometimes applies for specific kinds of prayer that require the attention of the leaders of the church (under whatever name for them is used).
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And – KAS
Have you considered the ANT?
The ANT is small and insignificant – Or is it?
Proverbs 6:6-8 KJV
6 – Go to the ant, thou sluggard;
consider her ways, and be wise:
7 – Which having NO guide, overseer, or ruler,
8 – Provideth her meat in the summer,
and gathereth her food in the harvest.
Guide – 07101 qatsiyn
KJV – ruler 4, prince 4, captain 3, guide 1.
Thayers – chief, ruler, commander, dictator, ruler (of one in authority)
Overseer – 07860 shoter {sho-tare’}
KJV – officers 23, ruler 1, overseer 1.
Thayers – official, officer.
Ruler – 04910 mashal {maw-shal’}
KJV – rule 38, ruler 19, reign 8, dominion 7, governor 4.
Thayers – to rule, have dominion, reign, cause to rule, exercise dominion.
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And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
If not now? – When?
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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“If you abuse your wife, God’ll stop answering your prayers!” Yeah, that’ll show ‘im!
I’ve got a better idea: How ’bout sending him to jail?
Even better idea: How ’bout we ditch the whole dumb idea of enforcing an unnatural and unnecessary hierarchy between two adults, and let love and common sense rule?
And comps accuse people who don’t agree with gender comp of “going beyond what is written”, or seeing in the Bible only what we want to see. Ironic, that.
You mean, an illustration with no names or details, couched in hopelessly vague terms, based on 4 anecdotes which none of us can verify or corroborate?
Not too impressive, I’m afraid.
You see, KAS, this is a major reason why I’m skeptical that gender comp teachers or churches can provide adequate protection for women and children in a domestic crisis. The mindset you describe above is probably what kept Dr. Ruth Tucker in a nightmare of a marriage for so long. She kept assuming that her husband was abusive because God was “withholding blessing”, and that because she wasn’t “submissive enough”. So she persevered and kept following the interpretations of fools like Grudem and Strachan and Eggerichs, trusting that eventually God would hear her prayers and bless her. And what she really needed to do was escape, and leave that chauvinistic nonsense behind her.
Maybe that article on “Diary of an Autodidact” is right… there’s no way that a complementarian group or church possibly can issue a proper statement denouncing spousal abuse.
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Right?
This part obviously applies to wives too, but that ‘submit to one another’ thing is right out.
These interpretations always seem to fall one way. Mysterious.
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KAS
You write @ AUGUST 15, 2016 @ 8:28 AM…
“Not every pastor is a false shepherd.”
Well, in the Bible…
NOT one of His Disciples called themself pastor.
Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
NOT one of His Disciples took the “Title/Postion” pastor.
Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
NOT one of His Disciples were Hired or Fired, as a pastor.
Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
If the “Title/Postion” pastor, Or leader. Or reverend…
Does NOT exist, in the Bible, for one of His Disciples…
And, someone takes the “Title/Postion” pastor, And leader. And reverend.
And, they call them self pastor, And leader. And reverend.
Are they teaching from the pulpit, and by example???
What is In The Bible?
If they teach their “Title/Postion” pastor/leader/reverend is Biblical?
And that “Title/Postion” Does NOT exist in the Bible?
For one of His Disciples??? That is False Teaching. Yes???
So, yes, every pastor is a false shepherd”
Who teaches their “Title,” pastor/leader/reverend, is Biblical.
xxxxxxxxxx
The only ONE in the Bible
Referred to as, or with the “title,” – Shepherd – Leader – Reverend – IS
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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KAS
In my experience…
With the “Title/Position” of Today’s pastor/leader/reverend.
“Titles” become “Idols” ………. “Idols” of the heart – Ezek14:1-11 KJV
“Pastors” become “Masters”….A big No, No. Mat 23:10 KJV, Mat 6:24 KJV
“Leaders” become “Deceivers”..Isa 3:12 KJV, Isa 9:16 KJV, Mat 15:14 KJV
xxxxxx
Job 32:21-22 KJV
Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
neither let me give “Flattering Titles” unto man.
For I know not to give “FlatteringTitles;”
in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
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“I’ve come across 4 testimonies in recent times where women have tried to get round the ‘husband is the head of the wife’ teaching Paul sets out, and God has not blessed them until they have, even very unwillingly, acknowledged this. Then he did abundantly (in one case still waiting). I think this is an illustration.”
An illustration of what? I don’t even know what you consider a “blessing”. This reminds me of the typical comp teaching one heard all the time that if the wife would just submit more, pray harder….. the husband would stop beating her. She will be blessed with no beatings!
There is even a stranger aspect to what you wrote. The wife can “unwillingly” acknowledge that the husband is her “head” and she will get something good? A big house? A healthy baby? Is this another version of the prosperity doctrine? Or works? Or sorcery? Weird!
This is like telling a woman who has cancer that if she just acknowledges to God that her husband is her head she will be cured.
You have gone off the deep end on this one.
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KAS
“I’ve also seen the absence of blessing or its withdrawal
where so-called pastor/leader/reverends have got into rebellion
against those structures that he (Jesus) has revealed through the NT”
Structure – dictionary
the arrangement of and relations between
the parts or elements of something complex.
So, yes, every pastor is a false shepherd”
Who is busy teaching pew-peons to Obey and Submit
But, “Ignore” and “Twist”
These every day responsibilities of ALL His Disciples…
Do you know any pastor/leaders who teach and practice these?
1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
2 – Lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
4 – Submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
5 – Prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
6 – By love “Serve one another?” Gal 5:13 KJV
7 – Laying down their lives for the brethren? 1 John 3:16 KJV
8 – NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their own glory? Jn 7:18 KJV
9 – NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43. KJV
10 – NOT giving themselves “Flattering Titles?” Job 32:21-22 KJV
11 – Being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
11 – Humility – a modest, or low estimate of ones own importance.
So, Yes – every pastor is a false shepherd”
Who “Ignore” and “Twist” these every day responsibilities.
In my experience, the number of “pastors,” Who actually teach, and practice these 11 – Who teach, and practice, “Submitting one to another” – Who teach, and practice, NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their own glory. – Who teach, and practice, NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles. – Who are “Clothed with humility” haveing “a modest or low estimate of one’s own importance,”
Is Quite Small… 😉
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KAS said, “Wives who refuse to acknowledge their husbands as ‘head’ (Find that God stops answering prayer as referred to in the previous statement” find the same thing until they do.”
Dear KAS, where do you find this in our Holy Scriptures and who exactly has bewitched you? I do not consider my husband ‘the head’ of me nor my relationship with my LORD, only Jesus is my Head, my Cornerstone. My husband in not my ruler nor is he the mediator between my Father, Who art in Heaven, nor myself. To place another human being above another in a rulership type of scenario with regards to our saving faith is anti-Christ, for we are placing human beings in a place that belongs only to Him. I love and respect my husband, but he is not in charge of my salvation, nor is the owner of it, only Christ. We are called to submit one unto another as Christ commands, and no, He has not removed His blessings from me because we are not in a strict authority, submissive type of relationship.
Oh, my past abusive church has defined many of us ‘rebellious’ and having ‘jezebel spirits’ because we CHOOSE not to let them medal (busybodies) in our lives nor coerce us into following them (wicked leadership loves to tell you how to live your lives using Christianese language disguised as Scriptures, but without the teachings in context as lived by Christ as our example). And yet, they that preach and teach so called Biblical truth DO NOT live it out themselves; alas “A double minded man (or woman) is unstable in all their ways,” per Proverbs.
This child of God, has actually been blessed more after leaving a spiritually, emotionally, and mentally abusive church system, where in the natural, it becomes a full time job just in keeping up with the wicked mind games, false accusations, and praising l’eadership who tries to destroy those who are actually serving Christ…..most church people are threatened by those who actually exhibit the gifts of God, the Holy Spirit, diligently seeking to kill that which is good and for the Glory of our LORD.
Church leadership teaches these lies, because without an audience and adoration of them thereof, they become nobodies just like the rest of us. True, godly leadership never seeks a name for themselves and always, always, always point people to Jesus in total submissive servantship.
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I have not met a ‘humble’ p’astor as of yet.
Preach it brother Amos!
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Interesingly, the NIV says to ‘treat them with respect’ here. Reading the passage, it seem the part about your prayers not being hindered applies to husbands – I do not see it applying to wives.
Then it says “8 Finally, all of you, be like-minded, be sympathetic, love one another, be compassionate and humble.”
That would take care of a lot of problems. The one anothers are WAY more powerful than the specific prescriptions. Maybe we should focus on those for a while. I think the husband/wife stuff has gotten enough play, and it doesn’t apply to half of us anyway.
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And yet in regards to Karen Hinkley’s abuse you wrote:
Are you as equally “cautious” about “separating fact from comment/opinion” in regards to “4 testimonies in recent times where women have tried to get round the ‘husband is the head of the wife’ teaching” as you were in the “Karen Hinkley story?”
Psssssst. KAS, your bias is showing.
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KAS, I can see your concern for brethren receiving oversight from godly elders.
I can testify that in my life there are many believers who are at all stages of maturity and from different groups in Christendom.
I do not go to any religious meetings and yet there are godly elders in my life who are available for counsel and who would speak up if they saw us acting up.
There is nothing more I can do to enable these ‘elders’ access to my life to provide such oversight, short of signing a ten page ‘membership form’ stating that I understand I am a minion who is under the authority of ‘the pastor’ or ‘eldership’.
There is nothing further that I need to do to enable God’s people to ‘minister’ in my life. I’m here and I’m open.
I just don’t have to go to some 2 million dollar facility to enable access to these elders.
I don’t need some formal agreement with these elders either. They don’t call themselves elders nor do I let them think they’re above me. They ARE elders.
They are old people who love Christ and are living it out BY EXAMPLE.
And who can we thank for this?
You quoted the verse in Acts.
The Holy Spirit.
AKA—> God.
Oh yes, He is able. 💪
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BeenThereDoneThat – yes, I am every bit a cautious about testimony as anything else, and invite you to be the same! The bible is the standard of faith: testimony can shed light on it or illustrate how it works in real life. I have varying degrees of trust in what I have heard, but see no reason not to believe it true.
One case which I am not going to elaborate on is my own personal observation of a blogger, and the effect rebellion (I don’t use that word lightly) against certain biblical doctrines has had. This set off the train of thougth about God not answering prayer that both egalitarians and complementarians need to take seriously.
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My husband would not know what the words Egalitarian and Complementarian mean, as he isn’t a reader of ‘God books’. He is a believer in Jesus Christ and he is a good man.
We have been married many years and he cooks, cleans and changes diapers. We don’t have defined ‘gender roles’. I breastfeed the babies because he can’t do that 😉😏 but besides this unique task we are much the same.
We help each other. He is not a lazy man.
God hears my prayers just fine. I can’t talk about hubby’s prayers because that is between him and the Lord.
Rest assured, I am yet to jump on a Mardi Gras float, support planned parenthood or donate my baby to a childless same sex couple. No slippery slope here.
In my group of friends, it is the Complementarian men who seem to hide behind their ‘biblical doctrines’ to justify not helping their wife with the kids and housework. I have some pretty tired and unhappy Comp friends.
I find Complementarianism quite ugly.
It seems to create domestically useless men who have a ‘biblical right’ to not serve their tired wives in a way which would show love.
Am I supposed to tell my husband, “dear, I know you enjoy cooking and you want to serve me by helping me shop and clean and look after the kids. But it’s not the Bible way. please just go to your 9-5 and let me struggle in my bible defined role”.
Yeah no.
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KAS
Hmmm? Prayers NOT being answered???
Seems, wanna-be pastor/leader/reverends, suffer here the most.
I’ll use your words @ AUGUST 15, 2016 @ 12:38 AM…
“I’ve also seen the absence of blessing or its withdrawal
where wanna-be pastor/leader/reverends have got into rebellion
against those structures that he (Jesus) has revealed through the NT”
Jesus called Him self, “The ONE Shepherd – The ONE Leader.
And, His Disciples must have believed Jesus… Because…
NOT one of His Disciples called them self shepherd or leader.
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And your words again @ AUGUST 15, 2016 @ 9:21 AM…
“When we are NOT righteous, then answered prayer dries up.”
“When we
(wanna-be pastor/leader/reverends)
are NOT righteous,
(Taking “Titles” that do NOT exist in the Bible for one of His Disciples.)
(Taking “Titles” that only exist in the Bible for “ONE” – Jesus.)
then answered prayer dries up.”
(The family and personal statistics for pastor/leaders are horrible.)
Seems, wanna-be pastor/leader/reverends, suffer the most…
With ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
xxxxxxxxxx
When you believe the lie you start to die…
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KAS
Let’s look at just a few statistics, and dangers…
For wanna-be pastor/leader/reverends, and their families…
Who take a “Title/Position” – NOT found in the Bible.
These stats are from a ministry called – Into Thy Word.
Who have been researching pastors since 1989.
http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=36562&columnid=
1 – 80% of feel unqualified and discouraged in their role as pastor.
Wouldn-cha-think these pastors pray for the Joy of the Lord? – BUT…
They receive ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
80% still feel discouraged. In their role as pastor.
Why will God NOT answerer their prayer? Their way?
2 – 80% of ‘ spouses wish their spouse would choose a different profession.
Wouldn-cha-think these pastors pray for their spouse to enjoy this job?
BUT, ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
Why will God NOT answerer their prayer? Their way?
3 – 80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
…….. Many pastor’s children do not attend church now because
…….. of what the church has done to their parents.
Wouldn-cha-think these pastors want, and pray for, pastoral ministry
to have a positive affect on their their families? Their children?
BUT, ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
Why will God NOT answerer their prayer? Their way?
4 – 77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
Wouldn-cha-think these pastors want, and pray for, a good marriage?
BUT, ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
Why will God NOT answerer their prayer? Their way?
5 – 70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
6 – 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
7 – 57% said they would leave if **they had a better place to go***
….including secular work.
Wow – 57% of pastors NO longer want to be a
Paid, Professional, Pastor, in a Pulpit, Preaching, to People, in Pews.
Wouldn-cha-think these pastors want, and pray for, ** A Differentl Life?**
BUT, ”absence of blessing” and ”answered prayer dries up.”
Why will God NOT answerer their prayer? Their way?
Could the reason pastor/leader/reverends, and families, suffer so…
Is they have taken a Title/Position
That does NOT exist in the Bible
For one of His Disciples?
xxxxxxxxxx
When you believe the lie you start to die…
When you live the lie… You die slowly, day by day…
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KAS
Could the reason pastor/leader/reverends, and families, suffer so…
Is they have assumed a Position
Elder/Oerseer
That they do NOT Qualify for.
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “Must Be” Blameless.
2 – Just.
3 – Holy.
1 – Blameless. Thayers – cannot be called into account, unreproveable.
Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.
2 – Just. Thayers – righteous, observing divine laws, innocent, faultless.
3 – Holy. Thayers – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
religiously observing every moral obligation.
Why would someone take a postion they do NOT qualify for?
When you believe the lie you start to die…
When you live the lie…
You die slowly, day by day…
When you continue to live the lie…
Your family also begins to suffer and die…
77% of pastors admit they do NOT have a good marriage…
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Katy, the answer to your question is found in 1 Cor 11 and Eph 5, for example But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
If translation issues interest you, you will know the arguments about the meaning of head in this passage, apart from where it is meant literally. From what I have read (it’s important to read all the sides on this argument) ‘head’ is about as good a word in English as possible, even if it doesn’t quite correspond to the metaphorical usages in Greek. It’s not a synonym for ‘authority’ let alone ‘ruler’, but it does have a sense of authority as it underlying meaning.
The novel attempt to render it ‘source’, whilst making sense in some cases where it is used, creates more problems than it solves, not least in making Christ a created being – a far worse concept than anything Grudem could come up with! There are what seems to me some dodgy claims made on this score.
Eph contains the parallels of wife submitting and husband being head, a relationship mirroring Christ as head and the church. It’s almost impossible not to see some element of authority intended here, even if that is not the whole picture. A husband is under authority himself, namely his head.
There is no verse that expressly says a Christ is the head of a woman or wife. There is no verse that expressly says husbands are to submit to wives. Not enough attention is given to this.
I would suggest that the blessing of God comes to wives through their husbands as their ‘head’, without denying all the other things that are true equally to both and all believers. The testimony I referred to earlier makes me think this is not too far off the mark. It’s a line of thinking I have had to mull over recently, I’ve been asking myself amongst other things why Satan attacks this so vehemently by trying to turn it into some kind of perceived curse.
I don’t think for one second that anyone is supposed to ‘submit’ to despotic, authoritarian leadership, whether in the church or in the home. So this whole idea has nothing to do with the church you have left, which I see as being under spiritual attack on something God intended to be for our blessing.
Like study and the making of many books, this can become wearisome to the flesh if not diluted with other aspects of Christian living!
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KAS, you don’t want to understand historical context because you would lose your position. Every time you comment that comes through loud and clear. Therefore you have to turn scripture verses into clobber verses for today and a rule book completely missing the larger message of love and mutualism. If you are always greeting your brothers with a Holy Kiss, then you are consistent in your interpretation of mapping without historical.
Seems rather strange that Paul would need to tell husband to love their wives if you are reading it through a post enlightenment western filter. However in a context of arranged marriages, usually a much younger woman to an older man, who is basically a breeder, and lives in a part of the abode with the children and servants, if any, and even animals. Her job was to produce sons.
You don’t get it. And you don’t want to because it benefits your ego.
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“I don’t think for one second that anyone is supposed to ‘submit’ to despotic, authoritarian leadership, whether in the church or in the home. ”
Who gets to decide the definition of authoritarian? The one submitting? (wink)
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How, exactly?
So, do you think that women do need a mediator to approach Christ? No woman — even unmarried — can have a relationship with Christ without some man as their “head” or “covering”?
If so, it took you long enough to admit it. If not, what exactly is your point?
Suggest it all you want, KAS. It’s still rank chauvinistic nonsense. If a woman doesn’t need a man as her mediator before marriage, she doesn’t need one after marriage. End of story.
Now, you really need to clarify this. What do you mean by Satan “attacking” this notion of “male headship”? Are you suggesting that he’s behind the work of Julie Anne and Ruth Tucker and others in exposing the evil of this foolishness? If not, then please take the time and the words to make some sense here.
Male entitlement is not a “perceived” curse, KAS. It’s a real, actual curse. It’s been a part of human culture for a long, long time. In perpetuating it, Christendom is not being counter-cultural. It’s being backwards and abusive.
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I’m aware we are against ‘the world, the flesh and the devil‘. This latter aspect of spiritual warfare often gets overlooked these days.
The attack takes various forms. One obvious one is going to extremes. A complementarian reading can lead men to an assumption of status, entitlement, authority, an ego trip. Deceived men enforcing what they see as God’s command to women (submit) and totally forgetting what he has commanded them.
The converse is possible amongst women. They can either be deceived into thinking they should be doormats, or that they have rights and can minister and no-one is going to get in their way. They fight or negate any kind of submission tooth and nail.
I have come to believe again the creation has a hierarchical structure. God is over all, but there are angels and demons with different ranks, believers, unbelievers, the lower animals and then plants. It is something I am still thinking through. What we can’t afford to do is to get out of order in this. This also applies to submission to elders (the real thing, not the fakes) in the church.
There are some inequalities here, different ranks if you like, and we either make ourselves vulnerable to being led astray and/or block God’s blessing to us by rebelling against them.
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. The latter won’t happen without the former, submission to God. This is both direct submission of all believers personally, but also a willingness to do the other ‘submission’ requirements of both men and women regarding husbands and elders or whatever you want to call them.
I remember a girl in the church needing deliverance (very obviously). A Spirit-filled Christian who led the bible study prayed for her. I’ve never forgotten it. Yet he then insisted on taking her to the pastor of the church for more prayer. The pastor, a lovely and caring man, had no experience of this at all, and I couldn’t see the point. My friend later explained that the pastor has the spiritual authority over the church, and had a God-given responsibility for further care. I’ve since come to see the wisdom in this, and recently circumstances have reminded me of it.
If you think the church is wholly egalitarian and there is no need for elders, then the instruction for the sick person to ‘call the elders of the church’ is redundant.
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KAS, Thank-you for pointing out those Scriptures in 1 Corinthians 11 and Ephesians 5, for have studies and meditated upon those well. This may be a surprise to those who ascribe to authoritarian/rulership false doctrines, for I actually love those Scriptures as they bear witness to our Savior. When a born again believer understands that the word “head” means “source,” there is such a freedom in Christ that rulership/leadership type of souls have a difficult time understanding, and the words of our LORD, submit ye one, unto another, are ignored nor are they practiced within a meeting or two or three, or a larger assembly. Considering we are commanded also to consider others “better” than ourselves, a proper understanding of the word “head” would easily be practiced in what portrays itself as the visible church if it were taught correctly. To the disgrace of the vanity of man, submission according to God’s Holy Word is not taught according to the precepts of God (false doctrines by wolves’ in sheep’s clothing) Holy Word, but according to the doctrines of men.
Perhaps this is one reason the “dominionist (evil and wicked) movement” is gaining speed, especially in the mysticism/charismatic/Pentecostal/experiential cults where those attending such functions are constantly seeking a sign and a wonder to validate a their faith. Or perhaps this lordship/rulership/authoritarianism is the catalyst that is leading Christians into joining hands with Islam/Sharia. Because it all strokes man’s ego, his vanity, his ‘self’ in placing ‘himself’ above and beyond God’s commands.
Knowing that man is my ‘head,’ ‘my source,’ renders my soul at the mercy of Christ, who created me in the first place. What a miracle from our LORD, and who can boast upon fully understanding this, and not submitting to false doctrines of rulership and authority over my life and my faith alone in Jesus, the Christ, frankly, upsets the applecart of false Christianity, if I can use that term. I am free in Christ, knowing this is my heart and praising our LORD for that confirmation from other born again believers here, and the wealth of Scriptures pouring out of these precious souls.
If we were walking the streets of the city and the paths of the outback back in Jesus’ day, and observing the interactions between people when Jesus approached them, I dare say, we would have been astonished at the Way, in which He treated women. Perhaps we would not have been able to comprehend the love He had for these creatures, let alone, speaking with them face to face, and healing them by His Power/dunamis. Do not think for a moment, the hatred and rage coming from the hearts/minds of the religious folks of Jesus’ time was hidden from our Master. It was not, Alleluia.
Would Jesus have been called a ‘feminist’ in His culture by the false appearance of Christianity. I often wonder. Thankfully, He showed no favoritism between male and female, for both were saved.
Like I stated in another comment thread, “I never heard of this complementarianism or egalitarianism, or a vain focus on the philosophies of rulership/leadership/authoritarianism growing up within our small, poorer than most, assembly of believers.” All of this was not an issue back then, so why now within the c’hurch? What are men of authority and power and might, really afraid of? The Gospel?
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“My friend later explained that the pastor has the spiritual authority over the church, and had a God-given responsibility for further care. I’ve since come to see the wisdom in this, and recently circumstances have reminded me of it.”
Is that spiritual authority magically conferred at ordination or something? Jim Jones had spiritual authority over his church. He was once praised by Jimmy Carter in his spiritual early days as a pastor. How about Mark Driscoll? CJ Mahaney. Many believed what you believe about them. Spiritual Authoriy over the church.
Thanks but I will stick with Jesus. He never fails.
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“My friend later explained that the pastor has the spiritual authority over the church, and had a God-given responsibility for further care. I’ve since come to see the wisdom in this, and recently circumstances have reminded me of it.”
Is that spiritual authority magically conferred at ordination or something? Jim Jones had spiritual authority over his church. He was once praised by Jimmy Carter in his spiritual early days as a pastor. How about Mark Driscoll? CJ Mahaney. Many believed what you believe about them. Spiritual Authoriy over the church.
Thanks but I will stick with Jesus. He never fails.
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The NT doesn’t allow us to hold the view you express here.
Ordination doesn’t of itself convey anything – though it can recognise those who are ‘over us’ in the Lord.
You seem to be looking at this solely from a human point of view: there are those who misuse authority or exaggerate it, so you concentrate only on them.
What about those who do not do this, but do care for the flock as intended by the Holy Spirit? Countless faithful people. Those through whom God brings blessing, and correction. Isn’t this latter – admonishing – often the real reason for rejecting eldership or whatever name you care to give it? Keeping at arm’s length anyone who might say a few uncomfortable things we would rather not hear!
There is consistent apostolic witness to this, not just Paul but Peter, James, John and Hebrews.
It’s not just my personal salvation, the NT is more practical than that and arranges for us to be corporately ministered to. The body. It’s to our loss if we contract out of this for any length of time.
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