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Before we get into today’s article, we’ve passed an important milestone here. Today, I noticed in my Facebook’s “On This Day” feature, that it is the 4th year anniversary date of the judge’s decision on the defamation lawsuit brought on by my former pastor, Chuck O’Neal of Beaverton Grace Bible Church (BGBC) vs. me and 4 others. Our attorney filed an anti-SLAPP counter suit which meant that O’Neal and BGBC had to prove that our case met the legal definition of defamation. It did not. Not even one phrase that I used (or anyone else used) met even the first tier of the defamation definition (that we had intentionally lied). In order Chuck O’Neal to have won, he had to prove that we knowingly lied about him, AND, we lied with the intent to harm. Judge Fun dismissed the entire case.
When I think back on four years, the amount of information I have learned is remarkable. So much of that has been because of you. Thank you. God has restored what the locust has eaten. Through my pain and now the information I’ve learned along the way, SSB has been a safe and a growing place for me and for others. Yea God.
Here’s the note that appeared on my timeline 4 years ago by a friend:
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Would your church be able to help someone in the midst of a crisis? How equipped are they?
In February, I got involved in a situation in which a mom of many children discovered that her husband was sexually abusing their children. The world as she knew it had stopped. Everything. Not only did she need to deal with her own emotions and grief, and care for her children, but she also had to make plans for her family’s future. This was quite an undertaking and I’m sure it will take months of adjustment trying to find their new normal.
This situation was local for me, so it gave me the opportunity to see what help is available to people in this type of crisis.
A while ago, I went a choral concert which was held at a local church. When I went into the ladies restroom, I noticed this on the wall:
It occurred to me that we don’t have anything like that posted in our ladies’ restroom. What a perfect place to post something on domestic violence – a place where a woman’s abuser won’t see her getting this helpful information.
But, then, in the main hallway, I found many more resources. Check this out:
Part of the behind the scenes ministry work at SSB is what I call “triage.” People will contact me privately with immediate needs. I listen to them and see how I can support them so that not only their immediate need is met, but there is a plan for future needs to be met. Kathi, by the way, has been so helpful with this.
A few times, I have been able to shoot Kathi a message while I’m on the phone or messaging with someone in a crisis. Kathi has then been able look up resources in that person’s area so I can give them immediate resources. Having someone who cares and can give resources is so important in a crisis.
What I have come to realize, through hearing these stories, is that many – and perhaps most – churches are ill-equipped to handle a crisis.
This church I visited is capable of sending a woman in a crisis to local organizations so she can get the immediate help she needs. Notice they are referring OUT of the church – referring to those who are trained to deal with these types of issues. That’s important.
As it turns out, the woman I mentioned above now attends my church (You can read an update on her situation here, or feel free to contact me if you would like to help Grace). The first church she went to for help did not give her much assistance. Additionally, there was very little follow-up care. This is a case which will require long-term care. I am hoping my own church can do better. I’ve never been active in my own church in the same capacity that I help people who reach out to me here at the blog. I hope the tools I have learned here can benefit people at my own church.
I know a situation of domestic violence at BGBC. Allegedly, my former pastor did not allow a battered wife to attend support group meetings for survivors of domestic violence. He told her that she must meet with him at church. But he never met with her because it meant he was alone with her. She, too, did not get the help she needed as far as counseling. She also did not get the financial and transportation help she needed to get back on her feet. She was abandoned spiritually, emotionally, and physically.
We have willing and able bodies at my church, but in speaking with my pastor after church on Sunday, there are no real plans in place in the event that another mom in a crisis comes to the church needing help. I’m going to try to work on this as my August project for my church, along with another project for the blog that Kathi and another SSB elf has been working on related to domestic violence. (I will fill you in on that soon.)
So, I’m very curious. I’d like to get an idea of what a typical church looks like when it comes to helping those in the midst of a crisis. Can you give me an idea of what you’ve seen in your local churches?
The following are the types of questions I’m interested in hearing about. I want to know how well (or not well) local churches are able to meet the needs of people in crises. Any response along the following lines would be helpful.
If you are a regular church attender, does your church have a plan to help people in a crisis?
If a mother and children came to your church’s office needing food, money, lodging, would your church be able to meet those needs?
Do you have someone at your church who knows what is available in the community and can help her as she connects with agencies who can give her ongoing financial, medial, mental health, or housing support?
Do you have someone designated to make meals for people in need, someone designated to oversee financial assistance, childcare, or ongoing support (each area might require a different person or a group of people).
Does your church refer out to licensed therapists?
How would your church handle a domestic violence situation?
Also, if you have personal experience with a church and how they met your needs in a crisis, I’d love to hear your story, too. You can post in the comments or e-mail me at spiritualsb@gmail.com. If you have a story, I’d like to know the kind of crisis and how the church assisted you. Is there anything they did that you did not like? Is there something that could have been done better?
The more feedback I get on this post, the more information I will be able to share with my pastor, and thus, be a better help for those in a crisis, so thank you in advance for your participation. ~ja
Spiritual Sounding Board 
An excellent question–I’ll be sending this link to my pastor. Funny thing; you and Amy Smith were the first people I thought of the other day, when I found out how deeply the crisis went w/ a family in my church.:)
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Thanks for sending the link to your pastor, XianJaneway. I think this is one area that seminaries fail to appropriately address – at least that is what my pastor friends have told me.
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This is a very good question, I think working with a network of faith-based / secular groups is key. I loath evangelical churches and all the doctrinal nonsense that goes on but when a person needs help and a group can provide it I have no problem asking for other people. I always put aside my issues for folks to get help. But many churches lack the professional resources to deal with abuse, dependencies, mental health issues, and cult of personality issues of leaders.
I have huge database that I search through and can come up with numbers to resources in a local area. I enjoy doing that for people. I do not have much money but I do have time to look. When my health was better I could do more but those days are behind me. When I think of online resources about church abuse and other issues like that, Michael at PP, you here, and Dee and Deb at WW are my first stops. I just search your sites and find info if needed.
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brian – Providing information to someone who is in crisis is a wonderful way to help! Sometimes people don’t even realize all that is available within the community to help them get out of a bad situation. Thanks for being available to provide that valuable time.
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Brian, there is a big reason why giving people resources is so important (and I should have included this in there post). The first message you have sent to the victim is that you heard their story and you believed them. That is crucial for victims to hear so they can begin the recovery process. So, even if that is the only thing that you do to assist them, your simple gesture may have been life saving. Thank you for what you do to help survivors, Brian!! 👏👍
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Brian, JA is right! I have a friend who homeschooled her two kids and was heavily involved with her local SB church in NC. One day her husband came home and told her he was in love with another woman and left that day. He wanted a divorce. She had to scramble to get her kids in school, find a job and get her kids in therapy.
The saddest part was when she had to hear cruel statements from other church members. One deacon told her that she didn’t seem like the type of woman that would get divorced. Like she had a choice!!!! Being able to listen to another’s pain and not say something stupid or judgemental is a huge gift!!
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I tried to consolidate what I learned from The Wartburg Watch, Spiritual Sounding Board, A Cry for Justice, and books on spiritual abuse into a concise YELP post about my former, abusive, authoritarian, NeoCalvinist, 9Marks, John MacArthur-ite church so that other people aren’t left flailing.
https://www.yelp.com/biz/grace-bible-fellowship-of-silicon-valley-sunnyvale
“It was very disturbing to be a member of this church and to see the level of mistreatment shown by the GBF pastors/elders to adult Christians, an iron-fisted authoritarian control over adult Christians’ lives and demands for “obedience.” There were excommunications and shunnings ordered of dear Christians for any independent thought.
Grace Bible Fellowship of Silicon Valley is one of the growing number of authoritarian, NeoCalvinist churches spreading across the U.S. and it’s not Biblical.
*Heavy Shepherding. GBFpractices the 1970’s heavy-Shepherding movement’s un-Biblical control of Christians’ lives by the pastors/elders. The Florida founders repented for its abuses and un-Biblicalness. The GBF leaders have not repented and the damage is growing in the lives at GBF. GBFcopies the model of Mark Dever’s (Capitol Hill Baptist, Washington, D.C.) 9Marks organization. It is a heavily criticized model, including by conservatives, who have said that there is only ONE Biblical mark of a healthy church: Love. The other 9Marks are un-Biblical and it’s the Heavy Shepherding Movement all over again.
Membership Covenants. Members are told to sign them because they’re *Biblical and back to a Biblical basic. In point of fact they aren’t Biblical and are used to exert authoritarian control over members’ lives. Jesus required people to sign how many pages to follow Him? Correct answer: 0 pages.
*Congregational vote. GBF wants your money but doesn’t believe in a true Biblical church honoring the Holy Spirit’s work in Christians lives and giftedness. It is more authoritarian control exerted by a few yes-men over the Body of Christ, hobbling the power of the Holy Spirit to truly work. I will never go to a church again that is run like GBF. I will never give money to one again.
*Women. GBF pastors/elders promote Complementarian/Patriarchy doctrine that women are to “obey” and to “submit” and be 2nd class citizens. At GBF they live under the old Covenant and not the new one in Christ. GBF pastors espouse the Council on Biblical Manhood Womanhood which teaches a Semi-Arian Heresy by Bruce Ware and Wayne Grudem called the Eternal [a lie] Subordination of the Son to justify the subordination of women. It is untrue and is trinatarian heresy. GBF has put this man-made doctrine on par with The Gospel. If you reject Comp you reject The Gospel. Nonsense. Read: Wartburg Watch blog for more info.
*Teaching. GBFSV does not permit Godly women to teach the Word of God. They base this on the writing of the Apostle Paul. Paul wrote Timothy about one woman — original text in Greek said “the woman” — teaching one man error. Paul wanted her to learn correctly first. The issue wasn’t her being a woman, the issue was error – and that would be true if it was a man in error. Manipulative anti-woman Bible translators conveniently changed the text to something Paul never said.
*Nouthetic Counseling. GBF leaders believe that Bible is sufficient counsel for everything. They have no training and licensing, do not follow Cal. law, and frequently cross over the line into the Unauthorized Practice of Medicine (a crime in California that can be prosecuted as a misdemeanor or a felony). This bogus form of non-counseling comes from the un-trained Jay Adams and his books. It is malpractice. Examples of the GBF pastors/elders doing this: not getting an older woman alcoholic to the care of a physician to supervise her treatment and spending months with members discussing “gossip” and drawing pictures on the blackboard. In the end this woman, her adult children, and church members were harmed.
Additionally, the GBFSV pastors/elders held me responsible for the genetically inherited brain disorder – Dyslexia – of a woman church member who refuses medical care. She can’t remember entire events and accuses other people like me of lying. Dyslexia isn’t just a reading problem but a memory problem.
Excommunications/Shunnings/Stalking. A godly woman left GBF for a saner church and was harassed by church members on the orders of the GBF pastors/elders. A godly doctor was excommunicated for dissenting in private. I was excommunicated because the GBF pastors/elders blamed me for someone’s memory problems. A bizarre church!!!
Credentials. Snr pstr’s *Ph.D. is from a MO. diploma mill.
GETTING OUT: Don’t tell them. Send a certified/return receipt letter & resign, no details. Call 911 and contact an attorney if they bother you. Read: Wartburg Watch blog for details.
DOMESTIC VIOLENCE: Women – call domestic violence shelters/support groups for help getting out. Call 9-1-1. Read: A Cry For Justice blog by pastor/cop.
BOOK: Churches That Abuse, Dr. Ron Enroth (FREE online).
SEARCH TERMS: Spiritual Abuse, Membership Covenants, Authoritarianism, NeoCalvinism, Homeschoolers Anonymous, Wartburg Watch, Spiritual Sounding Board.
I learned that I know more than I thought I did & I will never listen to authoritarian men again!”
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This is beyond sad. I hear stories like this time and again. This church is victim blaming, rather than helping this mom in need. Oh, please, wake up, church!!!
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Well, my former “church” is anything but typical, so I’m not sure this will fit.
No. At least they didn’t several years ago. When one member confessed to molesting his daughter, they didn’t even report it for almost a year. They claimed ignorance. And when the victim went on camera saying the church had offered her no support, they essentially called her a liar on their website.
Only after the mother and children had gone thorough the potentially years long vetting process to be members. Even then, some were required to take care of themselves.
No. They are anti-welfare, and definitely anti- mental health care.
They might have someone coordinate meals and childcare.
No. They believe that is the function of a pastor.
In the past they kicked the family out of the church to protect the church’s reputation.
I’ve shared my story here before. My support came from the SSB community and The Wartburg Watch. I even had an SSB reader (a total stranger!) send some financial aid. The “church” kicked us out.
Btw, I think what you saw at that church is awesome. They recognize that there are very real needs to be addressed.
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My story directly addresses all of this. It’s still so painful, probably mostly because I’m still pretty desperately struggling two years later, that it’s hard for me to write. Maybe I should try to get together with Kathi – it’s much easier to tell in person. I’ll try to write it out.
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Persephone – I would love to get together with you some time! I think I still have your email. Do you have mine? I’m now working full-time during the week, so evenings or weekends are best for me. Let me know what works best for you. (Maybe we could meet up at that church you wanted to invite me to! 😉 😉 Just kidding!)
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With picket signs, Kathi?
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Julie Anne – Do I want to invite the Wrath of CON?
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I might still have you email, Kathi. I’ll have to look. I’m usually so exhausted by evening that I don’t have the energy to go very far. But I can do weekends. We could start visiting all the “well-respected” churches in town, and writing reviews! 😆😜🙀
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This is how the true Body of Jesus Christ is supposed to work, Thank-you Persephone and Kathi for this public exchange of ministering to one another. May we all pray that our LORD brings you two together to encourage and edify one another in your faith. May our LORD grant you the strength and resources in making a way for you.
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Exactly, Katy!
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Velour, you have given your info on leaving churches quite a lot recently, and I wonder if you would permit me to repost a reply from Eagle’s blog, although I don’t want to get into any discussion over this!
‘As an argument for leaving churches, I agree in part, but also disagree.
I agree with the need to get out from being under authoritarian elders, no to heavy shepherding! But it is not right to reject shepherding altogether, there is a submission of younger to elder. You could be misunderstood as denying this.
Agree about not signing membership covenants absolutely. Nor is there an obligation to tithe.
Nouthetic counselling – OK with dealing with sin, debatable about mental illness. Adams is controversial I think sometimes because he puts his finger on things we would rather not face. Sinful reactions to others sinning against us is a good example. He mustn’t become another bible. He mustn’t become a substitute for going to the doctor with genuine medical problems.
I’m not going into the details of complementarianism except to say your argument about why women mustn’t teach is very weak, doesn’t really make sense. Much worse – and I always stick up for translators – is claiming bible versions have been manipulated by men. That flies in the face of the enormous effort put into virtually all translations to ensure personal prejudice or denominational distinctives do not find their way into the text, although I will agree that traditional renditionings are not sacrosanct or never up for discussion, but in my own reading on this I have rarely found the problem is actually with the translation. I have read an egalitarian paraphrase of Paul that basically makes the text say the opposite of what it actually says!
Grudem and ESS – no real opinion on this except heresy is too strong.
Excommunication and shunning seem to be to be way over the top when it comes to members leaving churches unless for the most serious kind of sin of their own. What the bible calls sin, not the elders! There is a command ‘not to associate’ with Christians who are living in blatant disobedience, not the same as shunning, but nevertheless there is a need not to carry on as though everything is OK. You might be misunderstood as denying this.
All of this to say in dealing with why people sometimes come out of churches there is a very real need to careful how this is explained, in particular to ensure any sins on the part of those leaving are not denied by only ever pointing the finger at the elders. I’ve seen so much of this in blogdom over the last couple of years it has made me highly skeptical of many of the claims of abuse made – and believe me, I do know it happens. It is most counterproductive in challenging elders who badly need to change and don’t want to face the damage they may have done.’
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Oh, do I have some good news!!! You know how I’ve been going to the VA Hospital for PTSD therapy. Well, the intern I’ve been seeing had to end our sessions because her time was up. They only offered either Prolonged Exposure Therapy and/or Cognitive Behavior Therapy….and the PET only made things worse with causing more trauma…re-living it over and over again each week. Well, before my intern left, she transferred me to a permanent therapist at the VA Hospital. This one is a PhD who specializes in trauma, and who offers EMDR. I will finally be getting EMDR!!!!! I’ve been praying for this ever since I first posted about my story and Barb O. had recommended EMDR to me. I met the therapist today for the first time. Her name is Karen, and I already think she’s great! 🙂
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KAS, I hope it’s ok to reply to your comment. You wrote this:
My comment is this:
The Ekklesia is not a religious meeting. The Ekklesia of Jesus is his people. You can meet several believers in your home without conducting some ‘bible role play’ and calling it a ‘worship service’ or worse… ‘Church’.
You cannot ‘go’ to church. We meet with other believers.
I refuse to take my family to an establishment with a 1 million dollar mortgage, salaried hirelings who like to be called by a title only ever assigned to Jesus (pastor/shepherd).
The elders in the bible are not religious leaders. They are simply aged godly men. We all know elders yet do not refer to them by this word as a title.
I believe that many religious clubs calling themselves ‘churches’ keep many of the elders (bible definition) sitting quietly in pews, listening to 30 yr old Seminary graduates without a clue delivering polished sermons.
We do not need to establish rulers or leaders to monitor us. That’s the Holy Spirit’s job.
I fear that believers today are quenching the Spirit by heaping up ‘elders’ and ‘teachers’ and ‘pastors’ and our Lord is tucked under our sofas… Our little key chain hero who gets us into heaven and then we forget about it.
Time to burn the curious arts books, me thinks.
I’m done. Thank you 😊
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WFTT2 – I’m so happy for you!!! Woohoo!!! Thanks for the great update 🙂
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@KAS
I don’t believe this blog has ever denied that church discipline has a legitimate place. But it has expressed concern over those “living in blatant disobedience” getting a free pass from the church, while innocent victims are, at best, ignored, or, at worst, placed under discipline themselves. This is not an uncommon scenario in authoritarian churches.
If you’re not familiar with Karen Hinkley’s story, you may be interested in reading about it. Her former husband, a pedophile, received “counseling” from the church, while Karen was placed under discipline for obtaining an annulment.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/05/26/part-2-the-village-church-doesnt-discipline-the-internet-child-sex-abuser-but-disciplines-his-wife/
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WFTT2
I’m so happy you’re getting the treatment you wanted. And so happy that you’re happy. 🙂
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WFTT – That’s great news!!! I’ve heard so many positive things about EMDR. I hope you find this to be a successful treatment.
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Thanks, Kathi. I’ve never had this before, like I had the other therapies, but I’ve also heard good things about it. I just want the flashbacks, nightmares, etc. to stop. Ya know?
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Thanks, BTDT. ❤
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Salty, I love your comment, I completely agree.
I think there are going to be a lot of disillusioned believers in 20-30 years. There are so many idealistic younger folks that have yet to see behind the curtain or see the outcome of all of these man-made teachings.
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BeenThereDoneThat – I was addressing Velour on discipline rather than this blog as such.
I had in mind I wrote to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber — not even to eat with such a one. I assume this is where the idea of ‘shunning’ comes from, but seems to go beyond what is actually written.
It seems to me to apply when professing church members do the very things listed – fellowship should be withdrawn, or least you should be careful of not starting to be like the people you meet with in everyday life in the church, and steer clear of them.
We need, however, to apply this consistently, so I say that if any of these particular sins are being committed by some or all of a church leadership, we should withdraw fellowship from them! The word reviler can also translated verbally abusive, and this it would appear can be the besetting sin of authoritarian churches or pastors, as can greed also be. When they really are verbal abusers, not associating with them could well entail leaving that particular church, and in obeying this NT teaching the believer can do this with a perfectly free conscience. I bet hardly any pastors have thought of it this way!
It is no coincidence that this list of sins above is duplicated a bit later in a warning not to be deceived, and that those who live like that – including revilers – will not inherit the kingdom of God. Anyone with a serious weakness in these areas should not be in leadership in the first place.
I was aware of the Karen Hinkley story, but would be wary of commenting on third party internet information – which does not mean there is nothing to see here, move on, but does mean I have learned to be cautious, particularly separating fact from comment/opinion.
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Shy1, totally.
I believe Christians need to read about Constantine’s creation of the Christian Religion Club (going to the church building) and learn to separate John 4 ‘genuine worship’ (walking with God in secret like we see all throughout the OT w/ saints praying to God).
This Christian religion has no foundation in Christ. I fully believe it is a massive deviation from the Truth and is a stumbling block from the simplicity of Christ.
Otherwise, Revelation makes little sense.
“Come out of her”.
The harlot.
The idolatry.
The substitute for the real thing.
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Salty, I agree with a fair bit of what you say. If you were of a vintage to remember the early charismatic movement, many left churches to get away from the one-man band and experience body ministry, or every member participation as in 1 Cor. I still think is the best model, and in keeping with the thread title is more likely to make a church able to help the needs of those coming into it than a few who are overloaded.
Nevertheless, a complete free for all didn’t work, and new churches and fellowships found they did need to have someone or a group who oversaw the church and took responsibility for it. Sadly too many fell for the shepherding error.
The reformation set Christians free from the deadness of medieval Catholicism, but did not get rid of the man at the front. In modern evangelical circles he may not be robed, but he is the man with the master’s degree everyone is expected to bow and scrape to, if only figuratively.
My main reservation in what you say would be that in reacting against the professional, institutional “pastor” we accidentally get rid of any leadership or authority in the church at all. This is why I left you in Crete, that you might amend what was defective, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you, …, . This may not really be ordination as commonly understood today, but there is some basic structure involved in a church appointing mature believers to responsibility (cf. the Holy Spirit has made you overseers in Ephesus).
And remember, Timothy was young and had a teaching ministry recognised by the elders– he was told not to let the church despise his youth, so although basically mature believers should be elders, this does not rule out some with a particular ministry being younger.
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Dear KAS
Just so you know: coverage of the debacle surrounding Karen Hinckley wasn’t based on “third party internet info”. Karen supplied Amy Smith and others with copies of e-mails sent to her by the elders and officials at The Village Church. So we had her testimony, and the very words of those who mistreated her. That’s hardly hearsay, or opinion.
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@KAS
I agree! And thank you for pointing that out. I think we’re on the same page there.
As Serving Kids in Japan pointed out, the Karen Hinkley story is remarkable because it is so well documented. Not every story has, or will have, such concrete evidence. And I’m sure The Village Church will be more careful to not leave such a footprint next time.
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Exactly, Serving!! This was a well documented and publicized case which most likely caused Chandler to have to address this situation.
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Hey KAS 😊
I hear you. The bible is clear that mature believers are to ‘exercise oversight’ (feed His sheep).
“we accidentally get rid of any leadership or authority in the church at all”.
When I read the words ‘leadership’ and ‘authority’ I feel like I need a good scrub.
In my mind, a genuine God sent ‘leader’ does not:
A) declare themselves as such
B) command a salary, title or ‘double honor’
C) use the word authority – ever
A God given ‘leader’ is humble, meek, lowly, quiet spirited, SERVANT-LIKE, not loud/obnoxious/arrogant etc.
In other words… Unlike the vast majority of self professing ‘leaders – teachers – Pastors’ running religious social clubs in Jesus’ name Amen.
Mature godly believers do exist and ARE exercising oversight over other believers.
They’re likely just doing it in quiet, in their own time, for no salary. And they’re not blogging or tweeting about it.
I just got back an afternoon of fellowship with some other believers. Bibles opened discussing doctrines we struggle with. We prayed, ate a meal.
Short of singing ‘At the Cross’ I’d say it was a pretty good gathering of the Church.
I haven’t ‘been to church’ for 4 years.
And yet I still have godly ‘elders’ in my life.
Not appointed by first century apostles though. (Does that count?) 😊
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” Just so you know: coverage of the debacle surrounding Karen Hinckley wasn’t based on “third party internet info”. Karen supplied Amy Smith and others with copies of e-mails sent to her by the elders and officials at The Village Church. So we had her testimony, and the very words of those who mistreated her. That’s hardly hearsay, or opinion.”
Yes. Karen supplied Amy and TWW with documentation.
And we see how victims know why it is so hard to get people to believe their stories of spiritual abuse! And many stay silent because of that.
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My best friend just sent this link to me.
https://tituslive.com/2016/02/26/why-your-student-ministry-must-have-a-child-abuse-protection-policy/?platform=hootsuite
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@KAS,
Thanks for your response. Glad we agree on some points.
I part company with you on other points. Jay Adams has no medical degree and licensing and he just gets major issues wrong. It’s dangerous. He has pat answers to complex problems. He has done a horrific amount of damage as have his followers.
Women teachers. Women have always carried The Word and taught. For thousands of years. The Scriptures have supported women teachers. And there are many denominations that explain women pastors/teachers (try the Nazarenes, or the conservative Bent Tree Bible in Texas). For all of the NeoCalvinists’ pronouncements about using all of the Bible, they seem to only hang out on a few “clobber verses” and ignore everything to the contrary. Their arguments for not having women teach are weak, and un-Biblical.
Polity. While we need some structure in a church, the current crop of authoritarian “elders” lording it over the flock are not needed. There were early churches that didn’t even have elders nor was it recommended to their churches by the Apostle Paul. The Lord equips the saints to carry on the work of His church.
Bible translastors. The ESV [Complementarian] Bible translators have changed words from the Greek and Hebrew texts to advance their Comp doctrine. Paul’s use of “the woman” [a specific woman he was addressing and not in a humiliating way] who was teaching error to one man he wanted to stop and learn correctly. The text was changed to something Paul never said – I don’t permit ‘a woman’ [meaning all women to teach]. Paul didn’t say that. He was addressing error, not the issue of gender.
A noun “the Childbearing” in the Greek text, referring to Mary giving birth to Jesus and that salvation would be through Him, was changed to a verb: “childbearing.”
That women will be saved by childearing. That’s incorrect. Women will be saved by the Childbearing.
Excommunications and shunnings. It’s a proverbial Salem Witch Trials II at these churches. It is mind-control. Read the classic book Churches That Abuse, by Dr. Ronald Enroth (free online).
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Matt Chandler was also forced to address the issue of their horrible treatment of that dear woman Karen, before 6,000 people, because of not just the internet pressure on him and The Village Church, but all of the texts and calls that were made.
I was one of many who contacted them by text, phone and email and asked them to repent. They also heard from pastors across the nation asking them to do same.
They finally did. Wade Burleson covered it on his blog (Istoria Ministries).
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Oh, I know Titus and posted about his church and how they mishandled sex abuse case. Titus’ wife, Kari, was named in a lawsuit because of speaking out publicly and online about the situation. Eventually, the pastor dropped the lawsuit. Sadly, he’s still preaching.
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@kas,
Yes, Wayne Grudem is a heretic. He espouses Trinitarian heresy, the Eternal [a lie] Subordination of the Son. He’s been called out on it recently by conservative Christians and theologians. He should have been called out on it a long time ago.
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Salty
Well said @ JULY 29, 2016 @ 2:17 PM…
“When I read the words ‘leadership’ and ‘authority’
I feel like I need a good scrub.
In my mind, a genuine God sent ‘leader’ does not:
A) declare themselves as such
B) command a salary, title or ‘double honor’
C) use the word authority – ever’
I’m-a-thinkin you’re correct… Because… In the Bible…
Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called leaders
For you have “ONE” leader – Christ.
Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible
Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant”.
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
Humble = a modest or low estimate of one’s own importance.
Know many “church leaders” who fit this definition of humble?
Mat 23:10-12 – The Message
And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them.
There is only “ONE” Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
Do you want to stand out? – Then step down. – Be a servant.
If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you.
But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.
Bunches of Non-Biblical “church leaders” today…
Taking lots of Non-Biblical “Titles” to “Puff themselves Up” and are…
Getting the wind knocked out of them. 😉
His Disciples must have believed Jesus… Because… In the Bible…
NOT one of His Disciples called them self leader.
NOT one of His Disciples called another Disciple leader.
His Disciples did live like, and call themselves, “Servants.”
I’m-a-thinkin…
If someone calls them self Leader?
If someone allows others to call them Leader?
Being Rebellious to what Jesus taught His Disciples…
They are NOT one of His Disciples… 😉
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Velour – the ESV is a conservative revision of the more liberal RSV, and is 90% or so the same. I would be wary of labelling it complementarian, its translation is basically the same as all the other standard versions descended from the AV. In fact the ESV is probably a slight improvement on the RSV in 1 Tim 2. It changes silent to quiet – though this basically comes out at the same place.
The RSV has I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; the translators clearly understanding this to be generic. The ESV has have authority over a man more literal, but with the same generic meaning. The gender-neutral NRSV agrees with the ESV here!
Since when did Paul not name those spreading false teaching? How would Timothy know who was meant? In this oft discussed passage, he doesn’t mention false teaching. And why if this were one individual does he ground his prohibition in the OT? Let a woman learn, but not teach; being in full submission rather than exercise authority. The parallel is clear, the meaning is not that difficult. It’s obeying it that causes the problems! These women here who have to be silent or quiet rather than be teachers may well have been praying, prophesying or interpreting tongues etc. etc. earlier on in the meeting.
I have not learnt Greek, only have commentaries and innumerable different English versions to go by. Googling an interlinear Greek version is fascinating, but no substitute for the hard work of learning the language to a high level. In this instance, comparing them all does not reveal a deliberate intention to change the meaning.
If you consider the vital importance of a mother in bringing up a family (‘bearing children’), including instructing them in the faith, I don’t see why there is such a fuss about a restriction from being a bible teacher in the meetings of the church.
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“Since when did Paul not name those spreading false teaching? How would Timothy know who was meant? In this oft discussed passage, he doesn’t mention false teaching.”
The foundation of the letter and its reason is in chp 1. Paul makes a distinction between those who deceive on purpose and those who are deceived out of ignorance. He puts himself in the latter category and encourages mercy. With the former he names names as in Hy and Al. These letters were often read out loud and passed around which we can prove by the fact that we are reading them today.
“And why if this were one individual does he ground his prohibition in the OT?”
He doesn’t. There is absolutely not one single prohibition against women leading or teaching men in the Old Testament. If you are referring to the creation order he mentions, it might help to understand the backdrop in Ephesus. The book of Acts will also help to understand that the temple of Diana in Ephesus was considered one of the wonders in that world. The temple cult taught that Eve was created before Adam. It was a sort of fertility cult because so many women died in childbearing.. Surely you do not think that Paul was actually teaching that one had to bear children to be saved? Heavens! A work of salvation for women? I think not! Paul is referring to “the childbearing” as in Messiah. He is playing off the concepts of the cult.
“Let a woman learn, but not teach; being in full submission rather than exercise authority. The parallel is clear, the meaning is not that difficult. It’s obeying it that causes the problems! These women here who have to be silent or quiet rather than be teachers may well have been praying, prophesying or interpreting tongues etc. etc. earlier on in the meeting.”
You might want to put some more time in studying authenteo in that passage. It is only used once in the NT. Had the author meant any kind of authority, there are several very clear Greek words he would have used. The very obscure word used is difficult to interpret. Most lexicons even get it wrong. Ironically, Calvin was sort of close when he used “domineer”. We do know that John Chrysostom used the.word in one of his homilies in the 4th century saying that “husbands should not authenteo” their wives. Uh oh. It cannot possibly mean authority only since husbands have authority, right? And Chrysostom was big on male authority! It has a very sinister meaning of compelling one to to do or believe wrong. Thankfully, time has given some scholars room to research the same word used in secular Greek of that era. It takes some digging but is worth it. It’s not what we think which only shows how deep the pathology of control runs in what some think is the Body of Christ.
Paul said, let her learn. She was deceived out of ignorance We do know that the grammar in that passage is singular. She was Most likely trying to coax her husband into supporting the temple cult teachings, too, out of fear. I say this because gune and aner are often interpreted wife and husband.
You will, however, find a very clear Greek authority word in 1 Corinthian 7 in relation to marriage. :o)
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Keeping simply to the issue of translations.
Authenteo – the older translations (such as ASV the predecessor of the RSV) tend to go for domineer, the newer with have authority over. Its meaning cannot be accurately decided by usage 400 years after Paul. I think the parallel structure gives the meaning: learn, not teach; full submission not exercise authority. If you left ‘have authority’ out altogether, you would still come out at the same place. In any event, if the meaning is obscure – it’s discussed enough – then this also applies equally to translating it as ‘domineer’.
Your attempt to say v 11 and 12 refer to one particular woman who was deceived and teaching a man or her husband false doctrine is speculation. I think you are following Wade Burlison there, and I hope his knowledge of Greek is better than etymology! Just looking at an interlinear isn’t enough. I think in the face of an army of different translators into English he is changing the renditioning because it says something he has decided in advance he doesn’t like.
The understanding of the creation account here cannot be dependent on the Ephesian culture, although that culture may have been the reason for quoting it here. This is not the only place Paul uses creation in a similar way.
I have noticed with some consternation an almost complete inability to understand ‘she will be saved through childbearing’ as not referring to becoming a believer, but being ‘saved’ in another sense when this subject is discussed. I don’t find a reference to the Messiah very convincing even if superficially it makes sense. Be that as it may, it doesn’t affect the verses leading up to it.
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From Ken F’s post over on the Wartburg Watch in June 2016:
“Let me see if I understand Ware’s logic. Woman was made from man, which makes woman lower than man. Man was made from dirt, which makes man lower than dirt? No, wait, that won’t work. Ok, lets try this. Man was made after all the plants and animals, which means man has dominion over all of them. Woman was made after man, which means woman has dominion over man. No, wait, that doesn’t work either. What’s a poor complementarian to do?”
Another line of thought of complementarians takes the curse God placed on the woman as the norm: “And he will rule over you” becomes a normative mantra to support the their view that men are supposed to rule over women.
So let’s apply that same normative mantra to men from the other curses:
“In toil you will eat of [the ground] All the days of your life.” That means men are only allowed to eat from what they personally produce from the field. And only if it involves personal toiling. No more restaurants. No more grocery stores. No more pubs. No more home-cooked meals. I guess it even means no fasting because men have to eat on all days.
“And you will eat the plants of the field.” Same as above, but also say goodbye to all meat and dairy products. That will put a damper on potlucks. But on the bright side, it would force men to drink black coffee, which is the only manly way to drink it.
“By the sweat of your face You will eat bread.” No more air conditioning – all bread must be eaten while sweating from the face. This could also mean that it is sinful to live in cool climates, unless one can find a hot place to eat bread. I suppose one could create rules about whether or not sweating is mandatory while eating non-bread foods.
If we think that it’s ok to resist these other curses, then why would we in any way want to retain the curse of men ruling over women? I am so glad that my wife is strong enough to not need me to dominate her like that.”
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@kas
You’ve made it clear that you’re camping out on a couple of verses and ignoring context, language, culture and the whole of Scripture.
Thankfully, the Lord has used many faithful women to teach and preach His Word, to carry The Gospel, for thousands of years around the globe.
I knew faithful women Presbyterian medical missionaries (doctors) that my grandmother’s church supported who served in remote countries around the globe, carrying the Good News. Their pictures and presentations were moving.
The Lord will make these Comps give an account for all of the people who didn’t hear the Good News because women were silenced, supposedly in His name.
Grievous.
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KAS, “I think in the face of an army of different translators into English he is changing the renditioning because it says something he has decided in advance he doesn’t like.”
This is perhaps more common and ingrained than you realize. I’ll give you a short example. The ‘complementarian’ view is part of a larger view of authoritarianism. The view is that we have one response towards our authorities: obedience. This leads to things like promising to obey elders, promising to obey husbands, and adult children being told to obey their parents. Yet, our example of leadership, Jesus, never used the authority card, except after his resurrection, in the Great Commission.
In fact, Jesus said that the characteristic of leadership is not command, but service, with the example of true leadership not being the Great Commission, but Jesus washing the feet of his disciples.
So, why did the church develop such an authoritarian view of leadership?
1) Human nature (the rulers of the Gentiles domineer…)
led to
2) Emphasis/De-emphasis (let’s not talk about wolves and the sins of leaders, but about obedience and the sins of the sheep)
led to
3) Skewed theology (using scripture twisting and prooftexting to claim certain characteristics about leaders and followers)
led to
4) Skewed translations (choosing words and phrases that would lead readers to certain conclusions)
Here is one example:
YHWH is the Hebrew covenant name for God. In Exodus, it is translated “I AM THAT I AM” – it is, I believe, framing the eternal existence of God as an essential attribute. In all other places, translators chose LORD (all caps) as the meaning of YHWH. So, why is it okay to replace God’s self-representation as an eternal being with a different representation, which is one of dominion? Would that not lead to wrongly understanding God as a cranky authoritarian who was poised to beat the disobedient? Hmmmm.
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Velour – two verses would be enough, but I would go by half of Acts 18, Rom 16, substantial parts of 1 Cor 11 to 14, Eph 5 and 6, 1 Tim 2 and 3, 1 Pet 2 and 3. Getting the context and keeping to the flow of the argument. Take all of the verses in the NT that have any bearing on the subject.
This way, you will not end up with the MacArthur view which is too restrictive, and you will not end up with an egalitarian view either, which reads a modern notion back into the NT.
The summary of all this would be that all ministries and gifts are in principle open to men and women. What is restricted is women teaching men in the gathered church, or being in ‘eldership’.
I have read carefully what others say on this, and whatever the argument (which may or may not be good), there always seems to be an element of being deceived going on that sooner or later surfaces. Arguments that just don’t up are readily believed or very strange, novel and sometime fraudulent interpretations are swallowed or counter-arguments ignored. I could find numerous examples of this, though I’m not going to. In fact your quotation of Ken F – and yes, men can fall for this too – would be a classic example, where someone has failed to get to grips with Paul’s actual argument regarding the order of creation. Perhaps the post was not intended to be taken seriously.
The Lord will judge those who have sinfully silenced women I agree, and he will also judge those who have permitted women to speak where he, through his apostle, has commanded them to hold their peace.
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Dear KAS,
Oh, I think Ken was being perfectly serious. He was focusing on the various arguments that evangelicals make to suss gender hierarchy out of the creation story, and taking those arguments to their logical conclusions. That’s why his post sounds silly — comp arguments reduce themselves to absurdity.
I’m a man, and the argument for women being unable to teach men has never made sense to me. (Lemme guess: I’ve been deceived by Satan, or the world, or the culture, right?) And the more that gender comps try to find that evidence for that argument in Genesis, they sillier they’re going to sound, because it… Just. Isn’t. There.
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“Authenteo – the older translations (such as ASV the predecessor of the RSV) tend to go for domineer, the newer with have authority over. Its meaning cannot be accurately decided by usage 400 years after Paul. ”
Now you are simply trying to move the goalposts. There are other secular examples in what can be found in Koine Greek of that era. Chrysostom was a later example and a bit unusual since most were writing in Latin and did not even know Greek like Augustine. And he was a serious misogynist like most church fathers of the time. His use of the word is significant.
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“f you left ‘have authority’ out altogether, you would still come out at the same place. In any event, if the meaning is obscure – it’s discussed enough – then this also applies equally to translating it as ‘domineer’.”
Well that depends on your view of what constitutes”authority” in the body of Christ. If your bent is “Authority/ submission” in human relationships, you are going to approach everything in that manner. That is going to be the filter in which you interpret scripture.
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,’Your attempt to say v 11 and 12 refer to one particular woman who was deceived and teaching a man or her husband false doctrine is speculation. I think you are following Wade Burlison there, and I hope his knowledge of Greek is better than etymology!,”
I don’t follow Wade anywhere. I am on the record for that and totally disagree with his determinist interpretation of scripture. There are plenty of reformed scholars who are mutualists. Roger Nicole is but one of them off the top of my head. i disagree with his determinist Filter, too.
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“I have noticed with some consternation an almost complete inability to understand ‘she will be saved through childbearing’ as not referring to becoming a believer, but being ‘saved’ in another sense when this subject is discussed. I don’t find a reference to the Messiah very convincing even if superficially it makes sense. Be that as it may, it doesn’t affect the verses leading up to it.”
So Paul told them they would be saved through the childbearing but did not mean it? What is the secret meaning of that passage then that would not make it a work of salvation or maintaining salvation for women only?
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“In fact your quotation of Ken F – and yes, men can fall for this too – would be a classic example, where someone has failed to get to grips with Paul’s actual argument regarding the order of creation. Perhaps the post was not intended to be taken seriously.”
Order of creation is problematic for those who rely on a caste system literal approach. Fact. Animals are before the “forming” of the female.
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And, come to think of it, the Green Party could use your interpretive filter of creation order to make a case for the earth being more important than people (except those who believe like them, of course) :o)
If creation order is so significant then we can’t dismiss the entire creation order.
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The order of creation was Adam first, from the dust of the ground. He was given God’s word in the form of the commandment. Eve at this stage did not exist. That is Paul’s material point in 1 Tim 2.
Eve was then created from Adam, the second human being. She was created for man and from the man, not the other way round. Man is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man.
The order of creation of plants before man is irrelevant – the idea the later in creation, the more dominion is not implied. Eve being created second does notmean she is second-class (“lower than man”). That’s just being childish, and why I can’t take Ken F’s piece seriously. Dominion over the created world is granted separately to both. Eve being created for Adam means there is some differentiation built into creation, they were not interchangeable.
The fall occurred with a combination of Eve listening to a creature rather than her husband (to whom God had entrusted his word), and Adam ‘listening to the voice of his wife’ when he shouldn’t have done, since she was deceived.
This worked itself out post-fall in an all-male priesthood in the OT. All canonical prophets were male. All Apostles were male (in the sense of founders of the church under the new covenant). All elders were to be male, reflecting the original creation account in Genesis as to who is entrusted with the authority to be a teacher of word of God. This is what Paul derives from this: that and no more! Seems to go to a lot of trouble if this only applies to one anonymous couple in one church!
The curses made in Genesis in the wake of the fall are still in force. Redemption from them is future, after the resurrection of the dead. (You could argue for an element of deliverance in the church, but we cannot get back to a pre-fall state in this life.)
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As for woman being saved through childbearing if they continue in faith etc., what did Peter mean by baptism now saves you? The candidates were already born again believers. Or weren’t Timothy and his listeners yet Christians when he said Take heed to yourself and to your teaching; hold to that, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers. Is teaching the mode of salvation? Why is the salvation still future? Because it is an ongoing process.
Instead of endlessly worrying about not being pastors or teachers, don’t women have enough responsibility and influence in bringing up a family, let alone all the other things they can do? This should keep them on the straight and narrow, go on saving them.
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You have brought in so many non sequiturs, it would be ridiculous to even try to address them all. You have such a wooden approach to reading Scripture it is a fools errand. The baptism example is one f them. It does not occur to you to try and read it from a 1st century understanding. Did JtB’s baptism save Jews? What was the purpose of that baptism? Did Jesus need to be saved by baptism? What changed since then for baptism? A work of salvation? A change in how baptism is viewed for Jews and then Gentiles?
You are conflating the sozo of childbearing and baptism to create a sort of in progress salvation. It just does not work without a lot of ancillary problems. You really want to say if women are good mothers and obey their husbands they are guaranteed what you seem to be hawking as a final salvation.
You have a wooden religion.
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“The curses made in Genesis in the wake of the fall are still in force.”
Ha ha. Epidural? If you are male and work in an air conditioned office, you beat one of the falls consequences. :o)
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So, do you agree with Bruce Ware that women are made in the “derivative image of God”? Just so you know, that’s a notion that I find utterly repugnant.
And yet, that’s exactly how many of the self-appointed experts and gurus both talk about women (Ware above is just one example), and treat women. Like the Pied Piper counselling women to “endure abuse for a season”, and Eggerichs telling wives to forgo their rights to self-protection, no matter how vile their husbands are. Exactly the kind of rhetoric that convinced Ruth Tucker to stay shackled to an abusive dirtbag for the better part of her life.
I agree that it’s hopelessly immature, KAS, but you can’t pin that on Ken. That’s the very attitude of those who make the big bucks promoting this nonsense.
And the very first evangelists were female. How dare Mary Magdalene and those other women obey Jesus by declaring the Good News of His resurrection to people with penises! They should have known better!
And King Josiah and his advisors, what were they thinking seeking the counsel of the prophetess Huldah? According to you, they’re in danger of God’s judgement for submitting to the religious teaching of a woman.
This is one reason why I can’t accept complementarinism, KAS. It simply contradicts too much of what I know to be true from the Bible.
Another reason: I can’t see how any church that promotes gender comp can possibly be equipped to help women contemplating divorce, for their own safety or that of their children. That is borne out in the experiences of many, not just that of Dr. Tucker.
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As a man, I might be mistaken, but… Isn’t this an example of “mansplaining”? Some guy speaking from on high, telling all women what “responsibility and influence” they ought to be content with, regardless of their aptitudes, gifts or calling?
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“Instead of endlessly worrying about not being pastors or teachers, don’t women have enough responsibility and influence in bringing up a family, let alone all the other things they can do?” -KAS
With nearly 50% of the US population unmarried, many men and women who don’t have children, this has no bearing on their lives.
Whatever denomination KAS belongs to that restricts women, isn’t true of all denominations (including conservative ones) who have for hundreds of years sent women out to proclaim The Gospel, including in other countries.
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Not all churches even had elders in the Bible nor did they even require them, as Lydia has noted on other posts, such as over at The Wartburg Watch. Perhaps Lydia can explain it again here.
Conservative churches, like Bent Tree in Texas, are opening up elder positions to women, because of the giftings the Holy Spirit has given to men and women.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2016/04/29/women-are-free-to-serve-without-any-restrictions-at-bent-tree-bible-fellowship/
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“s a man, I might be mistaken, but… Isn’t this an example of “mansplaining”? Some guy speaking from on high, telling all women what “responsibility and influence” they ought to be content with, regardless of their aptitudes, gifts or calling?”
I think it is the typical ignorance of history which some women have, too. It is the Ward and June Cleaver or Ozzie an Harriet fantasy land. Real History is much different. Depending on where one was in the patriarchal caste, a woman might be picking cotton with a baby strapped to her back. She might be delivering a baby in a covered wagon as a homesteader. As a peasant in world of European church state she was definitely working outside the home in the fields or in some sort of capacity. During the industrial revolution she might be working in a mill. We marvel at how children came up at all if we know the standards back then as even children were working!. Of course, literacy was a big problem. Choices for women were only to the wealthy classes and even then, rarely serious education.
Only with the advent of a middle class were there such leisure choices to “stay home” and raise children or keep house. KAS has Paul making laws for salvation…oops, future salvation…..where there are none.
God is always VERY CLEAR about His laws. And we know there is absolutely no prohibition to women teaching men or even leading men in the OT. So why would there be a new law in the New Covenant just for women? They tried creation order to make a law but that does not work. ONe has to read it in. They have tried ESS to try and tie a gender castes system to the Trinity which is heresy.
They literally sell the consequences of the fall as virtue! You cannot get much lower than that. But think of this. The first “mediator” between God and His creation was the serpent. They try and convince us that God chose males as mediators for women! It really is a sick doctrine for people who either need some sort of power or something to hide behind. And they don’t base this on any spiritual virtue but on plumbing!
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Dear Serving Kids in Japan
Derivative image of God in woman – I have an idea what Ware is trying to get at, but I wouldn’t phrase it like that as it appears to go against Gen 1: 26.
I think you missed the bit about in principle all ministries and gifts are open to both men and women above! I have no problem with Huldah in the OT – and since then the Spirit has been poured out on all flesh. I have no problem with women spreading the good news, in the form of witnesses to the resurrection, or in the church since then. Paul greatly value his fellow-workers who weren’t ‘fellows’!
Neither what happened in the OT nor the obvious involvement of women in NT churches negates the issue of teaching and authority over men.
You other complaints seem to involve poor pastoring or leadership, and yes this does happen and people do get hurt. The kind of disobedience this entails on the part of some authoritarian men will not be corrected by placing women in a position the apostle doesn’t permit.
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Velour – what the secular population is doing – or not doing by rejecting marriage and family – has no bearing on what goes on in church. The church you linked to now having women elders is following a doctrine, increasingly common and I think deceptive, that we now have a better ethic than the NT, that God has moved us on (redemptive trajectory ) from the restrictions back then. That the Holy Spirit is calling women to do what Paul is disallowing in the NT.
This is also leading to the increasing acceptance of homosexuality as well. We now understand this better than the writers of the NT who lacked our modern knowledge.
Scripture is clear: there is no such thing as a female pastor under Christ’s Lordship. (Dan Phillips) Now many will argue about how clear scripture is on this, but what must override your opinion and mine and everyone else’s is what God has appointed in the church. This all too often seems to take second place to feelings and issues and influences not directly relevant to it.
As for churches needing elders, have you not noticed Titus 1: 5 ff?!! If you have seen too much of abusive elders, little men with big bibles, I can’t blame you for being wary of them, but they need to be there nevertheless. Preferably ones who really do meet Pauline criteria.
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PS: slavery was a capital offence in the OT, the negative attitude towards it continues in the NT, where it is regulated, not endorsed. Slaves were told to achieve their freedom if they could. The bible was there before modern secularists who think they invented opposition to slavery.
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KAS
Hmmm? You ask @ AUGUST 5, 2016 @ 8:06 AM…
“As for churches needing elders, have you not noticed Titus 1: 5 ff?!!”
Was wondering… Have you noticed?
“churches needing elders” is NOT mentioned in Titus 1:5. 😉
Titus 1:5 KJV
5 …ordain elders in every city…
Why did you remove “city” and replace it with “churches?”
If “churches needing elders” is NOT mentioned in Titus?
Who added that?
Who tought you that?
Was it one of your elders?
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KAS
And – Was wondering… Have you noticed?
Those are some tough the qualifications for elder/overseers in Titus?
And their kids have to meet some tough qualifications… OyVey!!!
Do you know anyone today who meets those tough qualifications?
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KAS
Here is a look at just three qualifications for elder/overseer from Titus. Seems, most who call themselves “pastor/elder” tend to “Ignore,” or “Twist,” these qualifications so they can maintain their “Titles,” pastor/leader/reverend, that comes with Power, Profit, Prestige.
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “Must Be” Blameless. 2 – Just. 3 – Holy.
Titus 1:5-8 KJV
5 …ordain elders in every city…
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop “must be” blameless, as the steward of God; not self willed,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
1 – Must Be
Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
This must be is the same Greek word. – You must be born again. Jn 3:7
Seems to be a small word but very important. Yes?
1 – Blameless
Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
Thayers – cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.
2 – Just
Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
Thayers – righteous, observing divine laws, innocent, faultless, guiltless.
3 – Holy
Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
Thayers – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
religiously observing every moral obligation.
Now that’s three tough qualifications for elder/overseers. Yes?
How many pastor/elder/overseers today, who honestly examine themselves, seriously considering these three qualifications, can see themselves as Blameless, Just and Holy, innocent, without fault, above reproach, undefiled by sin, and thus qualify to be an pastor/leader/overseer? And, if they can see themself as blameless? Is that pride? And no longer without fault? 😉
If WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Sheep, His Body…
Take seriously the many tough Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9…
The number of Biblically Qualified, pastor/leader/reverends…
Is quite small. 😉
But, will these UN-qualified, pastor/elder/leader/reverends…
“Remove Themselves?”
And be a good example to the flock? 😉
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KAS
You quote @ AUGUST 5, 2016 @ 8:06 AM…
“Scripture is clear: there is no such thing as
a female pastor under Christ’s Lordship. (Dan Phillips)”
Was wondering… In the Bible…
Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who called them self
Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who called another disciple
Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who had the Title
Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
Can you name one of His “Male” Disciples who was Hired or Fired as a
Pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
“Scripture is clear: there is no such thing as
a *Male pastor under Christ’s Lordship. (A. Amos Love)”**
Seems the only “ONE” in the Bible with the Title Shepherd is
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
If not now? – When?
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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@KAS,
Praying that the Holy Spirit will soften you. Camping out on a few verses and proclaiming that God orders this for all time, for all Christians, is simply proof-texting and missing the point. God is a lot bigger than that.
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“what the secular population is doing – or not doing by rejecting marriage and family – has no bearing on what goes on in church.” – KAS
Plenty of conservative Christians, who are are socially and politically conservative, like Daisy who posts here and on other blogs, would like to be married. But that hasn’t happened. These Christians haven’t rejected marriage and family. They are middle-aged. And marriage and children has not come to their lives, despite their fervent prayers.
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“How many pastor/elder/overseers today, who honestly examine themselves, seriously considering these three qualifications, can see themselves as Blameless, Just and Holy, innocent, without fault, above reproach, undefiled by sin, and thus qualify to be an pastor/leader/overseer? And, if they can see themself as blameless? Is that pride? And no longer without fault?” – A. Amos Love
Good point. I’ll expand on that since so many of these pastors/welders/overseers
are incapable of making an honest assessment of themselves.
What would others say about them, especially the people who disagree with them?
Were the people who disagreed with them treated with respect?
At my ex-NeoCalvinist church the pastors/elders claimed that they met the Biblical criteria to lead the church. Former members (men and women, senior citizens,
married couples, singles) beg to differ with them and describe meetings with pastors/elders in which the members were screamed at, falsely accused, bullied, ganged up on, threatened, and lied about. And these men claim that they did it all for God and that God gave His stamp of approval.
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“All canonical prophets were male. All Apostles were male (in the sense of founders of the church under the new covenant).” – KAS
Yes and they were also Jewish men.
So using that line of Biblical thinking, only Jewish men can be leaders in Christian churches.
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I think this could be a good discussion, but it’s hard to stay on track. I see two general flaws in the argument:
1) God chose men when he could have chosen women to be prophets/apostles. If God had just chosen women, then we would know that women in leadership is okay.
I think there are various approaches to why this is wrong.
The first one is that Jesus himself condemns this thinking. In Matthew 19, the Pharisees point to the OT divorce law and say, “Is is lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?”. Jesus’s response was surprising. Divorce was established because of the sinful heart. If there were no sinful hearts, there would be no need for a divorce law. The argument from the positive is that Deborah and Huldah are called prophets. Pastors today fall all over themselves trying to show that they weren’t REALLY prophets – that they were some lower class, or that the Bible was tongue-in-cheek. So, if Jesus chose a woman apostle, wouldn’t there be the same nitpicking and minimizing? The absence of a female apostle does not add to the argument.
The second is that we see “hardness of heart” factoring into God’s purposes. Just like the divorce example above. God’s purpose for man was no divorce, but because men are sinful, God needed a vehicle to protect men and women from spouses who broke the marriage covenant. Another example: “And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.” (Matt 13:58) So, here the unbelief of the people of Nazareth factored into God’s work through Jesus. If we understand that 1st century Judea was completely misogynistic, Jesus having a woman apostle would have been a huge distraction from his ministry. He did confront some of the cultural mores by healing on the Sabbath, blessing children, hanging around with trashy people, and even having women disciples. But, consider that Jesus didn’t go around freeing slaves, either. It’s an argument from silence to say that for every X, Jesus would have done Y if he held that view.
2) We can’t consider this to be a cultural argument.
Do you eat Middle Eastern food? The Bible repeatedly condemns eating meat sacrificed to idols. In Daniel, Daniel and his three friends refuse to eat meat sacrificed to Dagan, and instead eat vegetables only. God blesses this by making them stronger, healthier and wiser than the Israelites who ate the meat. In the New Testament, Christians are told repeatedly not to eat meat sacrificed to idols.
Yet… today Christians have no problem with it. Why is that? Is it because no meat is sacrificed to idols today? Of course not. Halal meat is sacrificed to Allah. I’m sure there are others. Is it because Paul said it was okay? Not really. It’s because we understood that prohibition to be CULTURAL. In other words, the church has the right to restrict our Christian liberty, when our Christian liberty is a stumbling block for others, and in 1st century Greek culture, eating meat sacrificed to idols was such a stumbling block. There’s nowhere in the Bible that it says it’s okay to (knowingly) eat meat sacrificed to idols.
That’s why we can’t simply prooftext our way around the Bible. We have to understand the culture and we have to discern what commandments are based on “natural law” and what commandments are for a specific time and place. We can’t argue polygamy today, although I know a few who try. Polygamy was for a specific time and place. Slavery was for a specific time and place. We have to be careful that we don’t take things meant for a specific time and place and apply them broadly, which is what we’ve done with meat sacrificed to idols. We realize it was to help those coming out of pagan Greek religion. We make a huge mistake when we take letters from Paul to specific churches (Corinth, Ephesus, etc) or people dealing with specific issues and then try to apply them in broad brush strokes as general instructions to every church everywhere.
How do you deal with the logical conclusion of this?
“It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.” (Joel 2:28-29)
“For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel … Peter said to them, ‘Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.'” (Acts 2: 15-16, 38-39)
“Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts.”
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28)
Is Paul’s instruction general to all or specific to men only? If Paul’s instruction to “desire the greater gifts” is general, then why do we limit the lesser offices of teacher to women who are given the greater office of prophet? If Paul’s instruction is specific, then what hermeneutical approach do we apply to decide what of Paul’s instruction is applicable to women, men or both? Are women part of the body if women are not to desire greater spiritual gifts?
Was the promise of Joel fulfilled only in the apostles, or was it fulfilled in the three thousand who were baptized and received the gift of the Spirit? Were there women in those three thousand?
What I’m trying to say is that while a passage like 1 Tim 2 might seem to be abundantly clear taken in a vacuum, we cannot afford to take it in a vacuum when it seems to conflict so greatly with other passages. We need to work out that understanding and not stop just because it says what we want it to say.
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“Neither what happened in the OT nor the obvious involvement of women in NT churches negates the issue of teaching and authority over men.”
Saying that over and over is not making a biblical case in context. As I said, God made no law of such a prohibition for women and the patriarchal culture after the fall is not a model, as you are trying to sell. That makes God the monster instead of the humans. Otherwise, polygamy is a model for us. When, in fact, it was a response to the barbarian culture to regulate behavior.
So, find me that clear prohibitive law in the OT so we can see how it might be carried over to the NC. God is always clear. He is not vague about His laws. He is not arbitrary or cruel. He did not assign human mediators just for adult women.
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“Scripture is clear: there is no such thing as a female pastor under Christ’s Lordship. (Dan Phillips) Now many will argue about how clear scripture is on this, but what must override your opinion and mine and everyone else’s is what God has appointed in the church. This all too often seems to take second place to feelings and issues and influences not directly relevant to it.”
Wish I had known this earlier. Quoting Dan Phillips the pyro as your source? Because he is an ancients scholar or a McArthurite? Oh dear. Here is to hoping you get free from that cultish Thought Reform guru worshiping group.
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And this makes absolutely no sense. Do you honestly think that a female prophet, with a message directly from God for His people, wouldn’t be involved with teaching them? Are you seriously arguing that Huldah never taught King Josiah, and had no God-given authority over him by the nature of her calling? That she could never give him, or any other men, commands from God?
So, according to you, a woman may use her gifts in ministry, but must never, ever, ever teach or have “authority” over a man. How do you propose to ensure that? Are you in favour of Wayne Grudem’s Mini-Mishna Fer Wimmen? It comes complete with 83 (confusing and self-contradictory) rules about how women are and are not allowed to serve in church or ministry.
And do you agree with Paige Patterson, who denied tenure to Prof. Sheri Klouda at SBTS? Apparently he did this so that a female professor of Hebrew wouldn’t teach or “have authority” over men, or even boys. (Can’t have a woman grading future pastors, dontcha know?)
These aren’t just “pastors” or “leaders”, KAS. I told you, they’re the self-proclaimed experts on gender comp — the ones getting all the signing bonuses and book royalties and speaking fees to tell the peons (both in and out of their own churches) how to “do gender relations right”. They’re the ones purposefully looking to influence a whole new generation of couples and ministers on how to “do gender relations right”. And yet they keep getting it frightfully, disgustingly wrong. Wrong, in ways that even non-Christians find backwards and abhorrent.
Why is that, KAS? Why are the gurus making doing so much damage to people’s lives? They claim to have studied this subject extensively, and to have the guidance of the Spirit. They brag about how much safer women and children are in their churches than anywhere else in the world. But at the end of the day, it’s in those gurus’ churches that “the least of these” seem to face the most abuse and harm.
To me, that’s proof enough that complementarian doctrine is nothing but toxic garbage, and a means for men to control and oppress women. And make bank along the way.
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“Why is that, KAS? Why are the gurus making doing so much damage to people’s lives? They claim to have studied this subject extensively, and to have the guidance of the Spirit. They brag about how much safer women and children are in their churches than anywhere else in the world. But at the end of the day, it’s in those gurus’ churches that “the least of these” seem to face the most abuse and harm.
To me, that’s proof enough that complementarian doctrine is nothing but toxic garbage, and a means for men to control and oppress women. And make bank along the way.” – Serving Kids in Japan
Spot on.
And that’s what the data is showing as well. The Comp/Patriarchy teaching churches now have the highest divorce rate in the nation when the nation’s divorce rate has been going down for many years (i.e. much higher than the national average), record amounts of domestic violence, incest, and
sexual abuse (non-family members).
The teaching that women and girls are garbage has gotten them treated – no surprise – like garbage.
Some insightful poster over on The Wartburg Watch (maybe Lydia?)
referred to this as Chrislam (like Islam). Brad/FuturistGuy, who posts
here and has his blog, came up with the term “Shehad” (She+had, sounds like
Jihad), for the NeoCalvinist’/Comp promoters’ “war on women”.
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Velour, it has been primarily my experience that has driven me out of a complementarian view. I grew up a “blue blood” within my denomination, having been taught all the right doctrine from birth, only to see people with a good conversion story be put over me. Soon, I discovered that they were not over me because of some amazing spiritual gifting, exceptional wisdom and great love, but because they knew the right people and were coached on the right answers. When I would bump them off the rails a bit, I discovered that they knew nothing. I think that created fear for them because supposedly they were these all-wise spiritual guides, but inside they were afraid that they would be exposed as the sycophants they were. So, the response was typically that they and the pastor would poison the well so I looked like a fool, and then when ever I disagreed, they would adopt a patronizing tone like I was a theological babe and they were going to teach me the ABC’s of theology. The normal members had no idea that the whole thing was a game so they wouldn’t realize what was happening, so they would sigh or give me the “what were you thinking” look. Later, I would find something from Calvin or Henry or Westminster that showed I was right, but the damage had been done.
At some point I started realizing that the ‘c’hurch turned Jesus on his head. Jesus said, don’t domineer. The leader is the servant of all. But, what happens? What service should leaders provide for the members if not to help them conquer sin, and what sin is the most important to conquer? Well, obviously the most important sin to conquer is not obeying the leaders. So, the greatest service our leaders can do is to serve us by forcing us, as much as possible to obey them. It might look like domineering, but really, it is for our own good!
So, with my experience and my understanding of leader double-talk, I started realizing that all so-called Christian authority relationships in the (neo)Calvinist church play out the same way. The greatest service husbands/fathers can give their children is an obedient heart. Thus, no matter how abusive and domineering a husband/father might look to those outside, obviously the church sees it as the opposite. The more the father needs to beat his wife or children, the more his wife and children need to be beaten to be in true submission. It might seem abusive, but really it is just a fine example of servant leadership.
That’s why when I told my former pastor the single most abusive and humiliating experience I had with my father, his response was essentially that I must have deserved it to get such harsh treatment.
So, now that my eyes have been opened to the authoritarian hypocrisy so prevalent in the church, it’s harder for me to take the prooftexts at face value, and it’s easier for me to see what pervades scripture as a whole. What I see experientially is that those most concerned with keeping women from office are the same ones who do everything in their power to belittle and deny women who have been abused and believe and promote men who abuse. It’s not just women. It’s children vs parents and members vs leaders.
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@Mark,
Insightful post and experience.
The biggest Comp promoter at my ex-church – the senior pastor – is a bully and a liar.
*A job he claimed he said he had as a pastor at John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church, John MacArthur said was a lie and that my ex-pastor was ONLY a volunteer like scores of other volunteers.
*My ex-pastor ordered the excommunication/shunning of a godly doctor in his 70’s, faithful husband and father to grown children, on some trumped up charge. The doctor is also a close personal friend of John MacArthur, who was outraged at what this punk pastor — a graduate of JMac’s The Master’s Seminary — did to JMac’s own friend! (My ex-pastor told us to ‘pray for the doctor’s wife’. She said she always hated him and his elder-friends, the church, thought something was terribly wrong with the church, and that they shouldn’t go there! She was right.)
*My ex-pastor went to the home of a wife (professional, middle-aged woman) who left the church and refused to return. My ex-pastor screamed at her and told her to “obey” and “submit” to her husband. She had left the church for a saner church and one with denominational oversight.
My ex-pastor read her out of the church, said they had “worked with her and she was now at Step 3 in the church discipline process”, and defamed this poor woman before hundreds of church members and got her harassed by church members.
She moved out of the family home, disconnected her cell phone, and her email.
*My ex-pastor claimed that he defended The Gospel before hostile liberals at a
Southern California state college while he was taking classes to become a teacher.
I checked that as well, given his propensity for lying. I couldn’t find his name on the State of California Teacher Credentialing website as having a credential. So I called them. That started an investigation by a couple of supervisors. They contacted me and told me that California has NEVER credentialed anyone with his name to teach. His stories weren’t true.
My ex-pastor said that he had a *Ph.D. . It’s from a diploma mill in Missouri.
Cost: $299. A real Ph.D. takes 8 years to earn from an accredited institution after earning an undergraduate degree and a Master’s Degree.
LawProf on the Wartburg Watch doubled-checked my research on the *Ph.D.
Countless threats and lies my ex-pastor told. A chronic liar and bully. To those of us at church and surely behind closed doors.
These men aren’t credible. They teach a false Gospel. They don’t know Jesus.
And they have NOTHING to offer any of us.
Their teaching that women and girls are garbage has gotten them treated like garbage. Comps have highest divorce rate in the nation and record amounts of domestic violence, incest, and sexual abuse (non family members).
Rant over.
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@Mark,
Here’s my YELP review about my ex-church. Headless Unicorn Guy (H.U.G.) who posts here and over at The Wartburg Watch said that my review (1 star, the lowest I could give my ex-church) was the ONLY review not written in fluent
Christianese.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/grace-bible-fellowship-of-silicon-valley-sunnyvale
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Velour, I think Ph.D. is typically 8 years from a bachelors, but that said, it’s a reasonable amount of work and more than just $299 to a diploma mill. I have a masters (2 years of school) and I did all the coursework for a Ph.D, minus the dissertation (about four more years part time), because it was the easiest way to not have to get each and every course approved by my employer for reimbursement.
I read your review earlier – you posted it on another blog and I wanted to make sure it wasn’t the church someone I knew attended.
As I said, this is bigger than women. The church thinks that the best way to get people to obey God without question is to teach them that they are worthless, and they should just accept their lot and not try to improve themselves. The only improvement should be between them and God, but otherwise, they need to find “joy” even through the most horrific abuse. Of course, the leaders shouldn’t have to submit to abuse because their office represents God in some supernatural way, so it’s their responsibility to defend their “office” vigorously as deserving respect and honor, while they do everything they can to remind you that you have no claim to respect or honor.
So, then, the supposed root of all Christian problems becomes one of obedience. If the husband abuses, it’s because of the wife’s lack of obedience. If the child is abused it’s because of his disobedience. If someone gets beat up or shot by a policeman, it’s because they reject rightful authority. Since power=authority, that also goes for the loud-mouth woman who feels it’s her job to rule over all the women. If the other women would just obey her, the peace of the church would be preserved.
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“As I said, this is bigger than women. The church thinks that the best way to get people to obey God without question is to teach them that they are worthless, and they should just accept their lot and not try to improve themselves. ” – Mark
So true. This is a bigger issue than just how women are treated. It is most offensive to me, a woman, but then the heavy-handedness comes down on men too.
You’re right about the power=authority and the demands for obedience.
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A Amos Love – I agree with your wanting elders to meet the character qualifications Paul sets out. Did you miss the little sentence regarding elders Preferably ones who really do meet Pauline criteria?
Elders were appointed in every city – that is, not elders of the secular city, but of the church or churches in that city. One or more in each church, or one over the whole church (a bit like a modern bishop) it doesn’t say.
As for pastoral ministry, the aposlte Peter himself described this So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ as well as a partaker in the glory that is to be revealed. Tend the flock of God that is your charge, not by constraint but willingly, not for shameful gain but eagerly, not as domineering over those in your charge but being examples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd is manifested you will obtain the unfading crown of glory.
So the flock were to be shepherded by under-shepherds, and he tells them how to do this as well.
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Velour – it’s always nice to pray for someone, but I don’t know why you assume I am ‘hard’ and need softening. The problem is when this all get politicised, and in particular drifts into identity politics. Anyone who is not egalitarian is considered to be part of some monolithic block which bears no relation to reality.
I might add, having listed a chunk of relevant NT places above, this issue is not decided by camping out on a few verses. I agree that 1 Tim 2 is not all the NT says about women, but you cannot seriously claim that egalitarians don’t camp out on Gal 3 : 28, ignoring the context very often and often only quoting part of the verse? To say all believers have the privilege of ‘sonship’ is true, the same faith in the same Christ with the same baptism regardless of background, that is what the passage is talking about, but to go further than this is to build a superstructure on the verse it simply will not support.
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KAS
Hmmm? @ AUGUST 8, 2016 @ 9:19 AM…
“So the flock were to be shepherded by under-shepherds,”
Was wondering…
Who taught you, “the flock were to be shepherded by under-shepherds?”
Because, IMO, you did NOT learn that from the Bible.
I can NOT seem to find “under-shepherds” in the Bible.
BUT… I cudda missed that. Maybe you can help?
In the Bible…
Can you name one of His Disciples who called them self…
Under-shepherd? 🙂
Or pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
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I just have, as you well know. The concepts are there, even if the exact word isn’t.
I don’t see the point of this nitpicking over terminology. The elders ‘shepherd’ the flock. What’s the problem?
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KAS
Hmmm? @ AUGUST 8, 2016 @ 9:19 AM…
“Did you miss the little sentence regarding elders
Preferably ones who really do meet Pauline criteria?”
Was wondering… “Pauline criteria?”???
I can NOT find “Pauline” in the Bible… And…
Pauline Sounds feminine…
Are you saying Paul was NOT really a Male Paul – But – “Pauline?”
A female?
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KAS
I’m glad we are in agreement…
In the Bible – You can NOT find – and I can NOT find…
One of His Disciples who called them self…
Under-shepherd? 🙂
Or pastor? Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
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@kas,
The concepts/terms you are using are from the 1970’s heavy-Shepherding Movement whose Florida founders repented for its abuses and un-Biblicalness.
It has come back in new form, such as Mark Dever (Capitol Hill Bapitst Church,
Washington, D.C.) 9Marks organization.
The ONE mark of a healthy church in the Bible is LOVE, which never made it on to Mark Dever’s 9Marks list, which explains why it’s all been so toxic, abusive, and destructive.
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KAS
Hmmm? @ AUGUST 8, 2016 @ 9:19 AM…
“Did you miss the little sentence regarding elders
Preferably ones who really do meet Pauline criteria?”
Was wondering…
Do you know any elder/overseers, today, and their children…
Who meet the, over 15, very tuff qualifications in 1 Tim, and Titus?
Are you considered an elder/overseer where you fellowship?
Do you, and your children,
Meet the, over 15, very tuff qualifications in 1 Tim, and Titus?
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KAS, it’s extremely important.
Elder is an adjective. It simply means AGED person.
An elder is not a religious ‘leader’.
These elders needed to be given to hospitality because the early church (people not place) did not have temples for religious meetings (called worship services).
I do not attend religious ‘worship services’. I worship God in spirit and in truth. That is, I seek to WALK with God in secret and in my life there are older godly men and women who I can seek counsel from when required.
There is only ONE shepherd/pastor/Poimen in the New Testament Scriptures.
Just one.
And He made that very clear.
“But Paul said…”
Paul did not die for my sins and rise from the grave so I don’t care if Paul has a heavenly chocolate cake recipe because Jesus gave me the only ingredient I need… The Spirit of truth who can teach me all things – 1 John XYZ
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@A. Amos Love,
And many of the people who are leading churches today, who call themselves pastors/elders, were NOT called by God despite their many proclamations.
Just all of the people they’ve screamed at, lied about, abused, ordered to be excommunicated and shunned.
These are men who are in it for the money and the power. They use a few “clobber” verses from the Bible to coerce people into obeying them. The Bible really is meaningless to them. Jesus is meaningless to them. They lack love. They lack humility.
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KAS
Just in case you need a reminder before you answer…
Here is a list of the Qualifications, combined, from 1 Tim 3, and Titus.
1 – Must Be Blameless — unrebukeable, innocent, without fault.
2 – husband of one wife — married, male.
….. The NO female elders, crowd, use this Qualification often. 😉 But, most elder/overseer/leaders are kinda fuzzy on; Must Be Blameless. 🙂
3 – ruleth well his own house – have a family, children in subjection.
….. 1 Tim 3:4-5 – For if a man know not how to *rule his own house,
how shall he take *care of the church of God?
(Take care of His Ekklesia? His Redeemed? His Sheep? His Kids?)
( *Rule, Manage – Strongs #4291 proistemi – be over, a protector or guardian, give aid, to care for. The stats for pastor/elder burnout and depression are horrible. And their families also suffer. 80% of pastor/elders say – Pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families. 77% of pastor/elders say – They do NOT have a good marriage. 70% battle depression. Doesn’t this one Qualification Dis-Qualify 77% – 80% of pastor/elders? – “IF” they are honest?
….. Because, 77%- 80%, Do NOT Manage, protect, guard, give aid, care for,
Well, their own house.
4 – not greedy of filthy lucre — Not greedy for money.
5 – vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
6 – sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
7 – of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.
….. Today many pastor/elders are seeking Celebrity; as Leaders, Conference Speakers, Authors, etc. Today, How many pastor/elders do WE, His Sheep, His Servants SEE who are Unassuming? Modest? Reserved? Calm in spirit? Sound mind? Self controlled? Not greedy for money?
….. Here’s another bunch of elder/overseers,
seeking Celebrity, Reputation, who are Dis-Qualified.
More coming…
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KAS
Here’s a few more. 😉
8 – no striker — NOT quarrelsome, contentious. (HAHaHaHa)
9 – not a brawler — abstaining from fighting. (HAHaHaHa)
10 – not self willed — NOT self pleasing, NOT arrogant. (HAHaHaHa)
11 – not soon angry — NOT prone to anger. (HAHaHaHa)
12 – temperate — having power over, restraining. (HAHaHaHa)
….. Well, here’s five more I do NOT Qualify for. 😉
….. Do WE, His Ekklesia, His Disciples, see many pastor/elders today who meet these five? There can’t be many pastor/elders left who Qualify after these 12 tuff Qualifications.
13 – **holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
14 – **just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.
….. Seems, Reformed Leaders, Pastor/Leaders, and the – Must have “Church Leaders” crowd, Is really kinda fuzzy on these two, *Holy and *Just, Undefiled by sin, innocent, faultless.
…..I’ve noticed most “Church Leaders” just “Ignore” them.
…..Some do take the time to “Twist” them. 😉
Their children must also Qualify:
Titus 1:6 “having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly” Titus 1:6
15 – faithful children— believing, one who trusts in God’s promises.
16 – not accused of riot — Strongs – asotia — unsavedness.
….. an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
17 – unruly — disobedient.
….. Do you know any pastor/elder/overseers who have teenagers? 😉
….. Do you know any teenagers NOT accused of being “disobedient?”
….. These three Qualifications have to Dis-Qualify a bunch. Yes?
Which Qualifications, are WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia,
Allowed to “Ignore” and “Twist?”
KAS
Do you know any pastor/elders today who meet these Qualifications?
Do you meet these qualifications?
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Thank-you A. Amos Love, Salty, Velour, Mark and others here for these valuable Bible lessons. I am learning so much from this site from our LORD’S Ekklesia and loving it. There is only One that I can call Father, and He is in Heaven; there is only One that I can call Rabbi, and that is Jesus; and there is only One Holy Spirit, and He always leads/points me to Jesus as my LORD and Savior, witnessing for Him.
The greatest leader of all time, was and still is man’s Servant, and this is Christ Jesus, who is worthy of all of our praise and worship. And he doesn’t even desire a big hand clap that I am often commanded to give by a pastor man in a fancy building/fancy suit. Jesus doesn’t need my applause like men and women do in church buildings, who love their front seats, love to be seen and acknowledged by man, love the pats on the back, love their names in the bulletins, newspapers, on the church property signs, love the praise of the congregants as they shake hands on the way out the door, love the “pastor appreciation” feasts, roasts, gift money, people waiting hand and foot on them for a whole month, love pointing out the ‘sins’ of others all the while ignoring the ‘SINS’ within their own hearts/minds and their own households, love boasting and bragging of how much they ‘give to the lord’ at their churches all the while not working by the sweat of their brow to actually earn it (Paul worked hard as a tent maker so as to not be a burden to God’s people), and they love to come into the lives of the lower laity sheep secretly desiring that place that is only meant for Jesus. Pastors are NOT our mediators between our Father and us, only Jesus.
How many lives have been destroyed by pastors, church leadership, religious folks who know not the Ways of Jesus?
KAS, do you hold a leadership position within a 501c. 3 church institution?
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I may be a little harsh here, but the last pastor man I allowed to lord over me and my family, stood there officiating at my daughter’s wedding (an Assembly of God pastor who incidentally attended that Toronto blessing (I call it cursing)) all the while in secret, lusting, texting, and pursuing a married woman he was “counseling.” He had done this before, soliciting the affections of other women in our congregation, but were called liars by the ‘leadership.’ And there he sat at our wedding feast, looking lovingly at his ‘sweet thing’ across the room. Then when he was finally called out for his ‘sin’, he battered us sheep with his JEZEBEL sermon with that wicked and evil smirk on his face. The so called ‘leadership’, ie, “his yes men and women church board and elders,” wanted him to attend a season of counseling, then be reinstated back into the pastorate!
And there he stood, having the audacity to wed my daughter all the while engaging in immoral sins of his own, seeking to destroy the marriages of other women in our congregation! No, I longer desire to have a ‘pastor man or woman’ lord over me or my family, that is reserved for Jesus, thank-you very much.
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KAS
Since elders are to be an example to the flock… 1Pet 5:3.
If your elder/overseers do NOT meet these 17, tuff Qualifications?
Shouldn’t they be considered, Fakes, Fonies, Frauds, Imposters, Deceivers?
Shouldn’t they, “Remove Themselves?”
And be a good example to the Flock?
“IF” you were an elder, but, did NOT meet these Qualifications?
Wouldn’t you “Remove Yourself?”
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Well said A. Amos Love about “pastors/elders”.
All of my former church’s pastors/elders are disqualified according to the Bible from serving but serve just the same.
*Senior pastor.
Bully. Liar. Screams at Christians (men and women, all ages). Demands “obedience”. Any question is “you are bringing an accusation against an elder without cause”. Lied about his credentials. Said he had a pastoral job at John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church in Southern California. John MacArthur says that is a lie and my ex-pastor was ONLY a volunteer like scores of others. My ex-pastor said he had a teaching credential and defended the Gospel before hostile liberals at a state college while taking classes to become a teacher. State of California Teacher Credentialing supervisors said that was untrue and that California has NEVER credentialed anyone with my ex-pastor’s name to teach.
Pastor ordered the (criminal) harassment of a dear Christian woman who left the church for a saner church. She told me that he also came to her home and screamed at her. She is a middle-aged professional woman who ministers to the mentally ill in group homes and the elderly in convalescent homes. She was treated terribly and the pastor told hundreds of church members that she was “at Step 3” and hadn’t “obeyed”. My ex-pastor ordered the excommunication/shunning of a Godly doctor in his 70’s, loving marriage for 50 years, loving father to grown children. My ex-senior pastor lied about the doctor before hundreds of church members, telling them to never talk to him again. My ex-pastor did it to me.
Defended his friend a Megan’s List child pornographer he brought to church, threatened me with “being destined for Hell” for discussing child safety. My ex-pastor claimed to have a Ph.D., which takes about 8 years to get if from a bona fide university. My pastor bought his Ph.D. from a Missouri diploma mill, a little store front. Cost: $299.
*Chairman of the Elder Board and Elders: All lie and bully like the senior pastor.
All “yes-men”. Threaten any one with an iota of critical thinking skills.
Also they cross the line in my state – California – into criminal conduct, ordering mothers not to protect their children from danger and to obey and submit to men in all things. Those are crimes in CA. A mother is NOT off the legal hook for arrest and prosecution when it all goes wrong because some man ‘said so’. She can end up in state prison, Child Protective Services can take away her children.
All of these men are ruthless people and simply use “clobber verses” in the Bible.
They are in it for the money and power. Humble servants? No.
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A Amos Love. I’ll answer your question. I have known pastors who meet the qualifications you specify – except not you, the apostle Paul as a delegate for the Lord himself lays them down.
I doubt is any of them have met all of the qualifications perfectly all of the time, but the basic character qualifications were there. If you expect sinless perfection, then you will always be disappointed.
Pastor-teachers, whether one or two ministries depending on your view, are gifts of the ascended Christ to the church for its upbuilding. They are intended as a means of blessing. This includes correction and admonishing as well as encouragement.
“Pastors” who are immature and therefore disqualified, or goats passing themselves off as sheep don’t negate the real thing. Pastors who are nothing but liars and bullies, who are greedy for financial gain and want to lord it over the flock, who love themselves, and very definitely those who indulge in sexual immorality are not Christians. Foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless is an apostolic description of the pagan world.
Youi can say ‘Lord, Lord’, and that you are ‘walking in the light’, but still be rejected as walking in the dark.
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