Pastor Doug Wilson and Ed Iverson encourage marriage of Pedophile Steven Sitler, Christ Church
Sins are like grapes; they come in bunches. ~Doug Wilson
I read a disturbing article yesterday that sent me reeling. I think we always want to hope for the best in people, but after having seen this pattern taken place so many times, those who were familiar with the story could see the inevitable train wreck before it took place. Our fears were in fact confirmed this week, and I am heartbroken.
Many times when we hear of breaking scandalous stories, the focus is on the perpetrator and those who enabled the abuse. The background to this story can be broken down into several important topics, and I hope other bloggers will cover some of the other aspects to this story. (A little bird told me that The Wartburg Watch will also be covering part of this story later today.) But for this initial post, the victims will be the primary focus, as they should be. They are the ones we need to protect and defend.
Background Information
In Fall of 2003, Steven Sitler moved from Moscow, Idaho to attend New Saint Andrews College (NSA). Sitler attended Christ Church, pastored by Doug Wilson. When he came to Moscow, ”No one knew at the time, however, that Steven Sitler was also a serial pædophile who preyed upon boys and girls, ages 2–12, and who left a trail of victims in at least two other states prior to his arrival in Moscow” (Source).
In March of 2005, the parents of one victimized child notified Doug Wilson, who advised them to retain the Christ Church’s attorney to accompany them as they notified legal authorities of the crime. This marks the beginning of Sitler’s legal issues.
About this time, Doug Wilson began counseling with Steven Sitler. To make a very long story short, Sitler was convicted, served time, took a plea deal, and will have supervised parole for the rest of his life.
A note of interest is the letter that Doug Wilson sent to the judge essentially defending Sitler and asking for leniency. Yes, you read that correctly – leniency for a serial pedophile! Doug Wilson told the Judge Stegner he had been providing counseling to Steven Sitler for only SIX times, gave him some books to read, and assignments to do between sessions. He stated that at the beginning of their counseling sessions, Sitler didn’t know the nature of his problem, but was later convinced that Sitler was open and honest when he confessed his thought life and behavior. The final paragraph of Wilson’s letter reads:
I am grateful Steven was caught, and am grateful he has been brought to account for these actions so early in his life. . . . At the same time, I would urge that the civil penalties applied would be measured and limited. I have good hope that Steve has genuinely repented, and that he will continue to deal with this to become a productive and contributing member of society.
Ed Iverson and Doug Wilson Encourage Courtship and Marriage of Steven Sitler
Fast forward a few years and time served, and now a young lady is on the scene. Let me introduce you to Katie Travis. Katie had posted her personal story online, but it has since been taken down. But it is possible to piece together her story from others who have quoted the words from her online journal.
Katie moved to Idaho to attend New Saint Andrews College from Fallon, Nevada. She lived with the family of Ed Iverson whom she had known several years before arriving at NSA. Mr. Iverson was NSA’s librarian and also an elder at Doug Wilson’s church, Christ Church. Reports are conflicting as to their relationship, whether he was her grandfather by blood or acted as a father figure, but it is clear that she looked to him as a respected father figure, and he readily assumed that trusted role in her personal life.
At the age of 23, Katie was at the prime of life, single, and ready to find a husband and start a family like all young ladies who are brought up in Patriarchy. In Christian Patriarchy circles, women are encouraged to marry young, so 23 years was pushing it. Several reports indicated that Katie felt the pressure to find a husband in short order because most of her friends were courting or married. She asked Mr. Iverson to assist her in finding a spouse, and he eagerly agreed.
Are you picking up on this culture? Katie asked a family friend to find someone to court. He was to choose for her, not the other way around. And this was normal and what Katie wanted.
On August 18, 2010, Mr. and Mrs. Iverson invited Steven Sitler to come to their home for dinner. This dinner was set up for the express purpose of introducing Steven and Katie for the possibility of a future courtship. “Ed Iverson’s description of Katie was that, though NSA was tough for her, she persevered through and she was, “pretty good looking, too” (Source).
While Doug Wilson and Ed Iverson were obviously fine with this possible courtship and marriage, it’s important to note that the Department of Corrections did not support the idea of marriage for Steven Sitler at all.
Steven posted his account of their joyous meeting on the internet:
“We met on August 18th, 2010 at the insistence of Mr. and Mrs. Iverson. One week later we were writing emails like it was going out of style. On Katie’s first visit back to Moscow in October, we had our first date, after which I asked her father if I could start courting her. I got the pleasure of spending Christmas break with Katie’s awesome family and decided on a whim to ask her to “merry” (misspelling intentional, more on that later) me on our second date. Of course it wasn’t really a whim, I had been meticulously planning it for months. She was shocked… and speechless, but finally she said yes, and the rest, as they say, is history. I love you., Katie” (The Real Doug Wilson Encouraged & Presided Over the Marriage of a Serial Pedophile).
Katie and Steven wed on June 11, 2011. At one time, there was a video of the wedding posted online. It has since been removed, but here is a screenshot of the video. [Note: I was asked to remove the screenshot here.]
Breaking News for the Sitler Case
Yesterday, CorrectionsOne.com reported (my bolding):
“A Latah County 2nd District Court judge ordered Tuesday that a convicted sex offender, Steven Sitler, must continue to have an approved chaperone present, within his direct line of sight, at all times he is around his infant child in the wake of new disclosures of “contact resulting in actual sexual stimulation.”
This was the train wreck we feared. The article stated that Katie was now disqualified as a chaperone “for failure to report disclosures related directly to the couple’s son and Sitler was required to move out of their home” (Source).
Ok, this is just sad for all involved. I have a lot to say about Doug Wilson but I’m biting my tongue for the moment. What I’d like to discuss is Katie.
Katie’s World as Wife and Mom
Katie and her infant son are victims of her husband’s criminal behavior. Imagine Katie being in a town away from parents and her own pastor and trusted father figure selected a serial pedophile for a husband. They had to convince her that Steven had repented. Who was she to second guess Mr. Iverson and Pastor Wilson? They wouldn’t do anything to harm her, right?
In these circles, Katie would be expected to serve and submit to her husband and bear his children. But how does that work when the State says he can’t be around children? Doug Wilson knew this before he married them. Professionals warned that marriage was not a wise idea, but the State had no laws to prevent it from happening.
The article states that “the Idaho Department of Corrections would try to remove his wife and parents as chaperones.” This suggests to me that Katie and parents were not responsible in guarding the baby. Do you see this never-ending conflict? Katie of course wants her husband to have a relationship with his son, but yet she also has to police him? How does this work in a home where she is to obey her husband as head of the home? What an awkward position to put grandparents in, watching Steven like a hawk. There is no relaxing in this home, there is always a threat if Steven is in the premises.
***
but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin,
it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
Matthew 18:6
***
Life Sentence
When Ed Iverson and Katie’s parents agreed to the courtship of Katie and Steven, and then Doug Wilson agreed to officiate in this fiasco of a wedding, they pronounced a life sentence on Katie and her child, and extended family. She will never be able to live as a normal wife and mother. This infant has already been sexually violated. Imagine the emotional stress in the home, always looking, trying to be vigilant, yet also trying to find a sense normal. There is no good thing in this situation, and Doug Wilson as pastor failed this young woman and her child. This is shameful behavior for a pastor who is supposed to be shepherding and protecting. What kind of shepherd intentionally puts sheep in harm’s way? One who is arrogant to think he can determine whether a serial pedophile is repentant or not.
The actions by Doug Wilson, I believe, also constitute as spiritual abuse. Katie put her trust in her spiritual leader to guide her and protect her. He asked for leniency for Steven – that is not protecting her. Wilson married them. That was also not protecting her. How might this affect how she trusts spiritual authority? If her pastor told her this, will she be upset at God for allowing it to happen? There are so ways this could lead to a real crisis of faith. I pray it doesn’t.
I sure hope Doug Wilson apologizes to this family for the harm he has caused them. What a disgrace not only to this family, but to the world as they once again see how Christian leaders mess up so badly.
photo credit: Grapes via photopin (license)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Wilson’s meddling is problematic. Sitler will tell Wilson information that he won’t tell the therapists whose reports could have his probation revoked.
And yet Wilson is doggedly claiming that he has everyone’s best interests in mind blah blah blah, what a fraud. What Wilson is *really* trying to do is effect a magical cure of Sitler so that he can hold him forth as a paragon of patriarchal theology and say “See ye faithless? If only you would live by all my stupid biblical distortions, nothing would would be denied unto you, even up to and including the power to cure pedophiles!” Such utter hackneyed bullsh!t. I’d sooner play Three-Card Monte with a carney, at least then we’d both be honest that the game is a cheat.
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Again, if his wife knew about some other incidents and failed to tell his p.o., why is that child still in the house? I’m not trying to throw Katie under the bus, but am thinking about the safety of the child at this point.
I’m still baffled by all of this.
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“Just lie back and think of The Kirk(TM).”
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I have a new Twitter follower and noticed this link was tweeted. Someone sure spent a lot of time gathering primary source documentation on this case. There’s court documents, including an audio, video of wedding, etc. http://t.co/k1P5eUScNu?ssr=true
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No, Dash, he’s a Good Little Kirk(TM) Member.
Just like “Good Little Party Member” in the old USSR.
The Kirk/Party/Big Brother Can Do No Wrong.
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@Marsha:
Maybe it’s because Pastor’s a MAN and their spouse is just a mere WOMAN?
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They sure did! There’s even a link to the Sitler wedding video, and it plays.
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@Daisy:
Just this past Friday, I attended an interview with TV producer/animator Lauren Faust in which she described going up against the same attitudes four years ago when she was rebooting My Little Pony for Hasbro/Hub Network. The suits trying to get her to rein in one of her main six characters, the fiercely-competitive tomboy Rainbow Dash (“Not Girly Enough”). And again with one of the early episodes (a competition for an extra ticket to a major event) where the suits wanted all five characters to apologize “for being selfish” in wanting the ticket, i.e. being assertive. (The final version had them apologizing for the high-pressure tricks they used to try to get the ticket; as Lauren put it “Each of them had valid reasons that the ticket should go to them; why should they apologize for WANTING it?”)
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Wow. I am laying aside my puny effort to use public documents and commentary on the Sitler case in light of this new (?) website, Here is what caught my attention. Exposed in the timeline is the clearest example of what I call “Dougspeak” I have ever seen. On one hand we read Doug claiming that he “ immediately encouraged the person who had discovered them to go to the authorities immediately, which was done right away.” After looking at the timeline on http://sitler.moscowid.net/ on the March 10, 2005, Pastor Wilson’s Response: Pastor Douglas Wilson of Christ Church, Moscow, Doug schedules an appointment to meet with the mother & father of the victims the next day — “after lunch.” What kind of pastor delays comforting the parents of molested children until the next day? And, equally offensive is the claim that he immediately sprang into action . . . which, arguably, he did to shield the perpetrator. Why didn’t he tell the devastated family to call the sheriff that night; why didn’t he make the call for them ? Why did he wait until after Steven Sitler left town to talk to them? I don’t think that he was un-engaged with this problem. I think it highly likely that Steven Sitler was sitting in his office for hours being debriefed so Doug could consider his options. But, that is speculative.
Because I live near Moscow it is easy for me to drop by the courthouse and get copies of recent court documents. That opportunity plus the ability to attend hearings has helped clarify the issues for me. I can say in truth that the prosecutor and his staff are working very hard on this case. Judge Stegner is a well respected man professionally as a judge and as a community member. Neither of these men are connected in any way with the Kirk. Nonetheless, I get really frustrated that the process is much slower than I would like – some, if not all the blame for that must be laid at the door of the vigorous defense efforts, which is only fair and proper in our legal system. I’m not a saint – it makes my head explode when what seems obvious to me seems to escape the folks who, in fact, know hundred times more about it and are educated in the law. They are not slackers, and I need to remind myself that I sometimes act like a big, fat, know it all.
I do believe, from a layperson’s perspective, after reviewing the literature, that sex offenders with a long history of sexual interest in very young victims are not as amenable to treatment as other offenders. I do know that Steven Sitler has been in “treatment” for ten years. Ten years and thousands and thousands of dollars later he is still at high risk (if being sexually aroused by an infant is indicative – and I certainly think it is) to reoffend. I do know, based on the website, that he is a calculating liar. I think we have gone beyond the point of giving him a chance to “prove” himself a changed person. I pray that something can be done to protect his child and other children that he may be in contact with before he reoffends. I hope that his probation will be revoked and he will be in prison for the rest of his life.
I will be posting this same note to the Spiritual Sounding Board. We are all grateful beyond words for the dedication that Dee, Deb, and Julie Anne devote to their faith and protecting the lambs from the wolves.
Blessings,
Rose
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@Dash:
As Harley Quinn shows all manner of solicitousness and concern for The Joker.
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Rose –
In looking through that timeline, what initially stood out to me was that when the father was told that Sitler had come into her room and crawled into bed with a child the night before, the father did nothing about it. Five days later he confronts Sitler about what happened and he allows Sitler to spend the night in his home again.
The next day Sitler leaves town. Wilson advises the family to call the authorities (about the only thing that Wilson gets right in this who thing). The father makes and “initial report” because they are going out of town for vacation.
Now I’m mad at this father. A child tells you that an adult man climbs into bed with a child and you do nothing about it?! Then, after you finally get the nerve to confront the guy you still allow him to sleep in your home?!! Then, you can’t be bothered to file an official police report on a man who sleeps with a child because you’re going on vacation?!!!
Grrrr….
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That is messed up.
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Kathi –
I agree with Julie Anne — messed up.
I wonder if this is the outworking of one’s hierarchial beliefs? Women and children don’t seem to be valued, believed, and supported like they should be.
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I was tweeting with a SBC pastor yesterday and he defending Doug Wilson. He was saying it would be better for Steven to be married. Why? To help his sexual urges. I immediately thought of Katie – that these men are using Katie as an object to help reduce his sexual tension. The effort is to defend a perpetrator and put extra burden on Katie, as if she can help fix a pedophile. Where is she as an individual being valued? This sure does sound like the conquer and surrender/accept scenario that Doug Wilson used to describe marital sex.
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Marsha, where was this from? I can’t seem to find it over there.
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A letter from the Idaho Dept of Corrections opposing Sitler’s marriage to Katie.
govpappy tweeted this.
http://sitler.moscowid.net/2011/05/27/idaho-department-of-correction-re-steven-sitler-2/
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Website devoted to all documents, news articles, etc. on the Sitler case and posted over at The Wartburg Watch:
http://sitler.moscowid.net/category/court-records/
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It’s all in the website I posted about 10 comments down, govpappy.
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Scott
Good question @ SEPTEMBER 6, 2015 @ 6:55 PM…
“Why are people asking pastors & leader wannabes
sexual questions related to performance
and satisfying their spouse ?”
Yes – Pastors have a terrible family track record…
Spouses are NOT satisfied… In many ways…
This is a comment left on, and deleted, @ Kevin DeYoungs Blog @ TGC…
Written by his assistant pastor, Jason Helopoulos…
“The Pastors Personal Holiness” April 16, 2015….
That was “deleted.” Along with other comments…
———-
In that post Jason wrote……
“As an under-shepherd,
*the pastor* models before his congregation Christian living.”
“The people in the pew look to him.”
“He represents Christ, His demands, and His calling to those under his care.”
Was wondering…
Can anyone find what Jason wrote, in the Bible?
1 – “As an under-shepherd,
….. the pastor models before his congregation Christian living.”
….. Where is “under-shepherd” found in the Bible?
2 – “The people in the pew look to him.”
….. Where are Paid, Professional, Pastors, in Pulpits,
….. Preaching, to People, in Pews? In the Bible?
….. Why would people look to him, the pastor? To model “Christian living?”
….. When the pastors life, and families life, is such a mess?
….. When 35% of pastors have admitted to having an affair?
….. (35% – 1 out 3 – Is that a lot?)
….. 50% admitted they would leave this profession
….. if they could find another job? Is this how “to model “Christian living?”
….. And 70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
….. And 77% have admitted they do NOT have a good marriage?
….. (Hmmm? Is this how “to model “Christian living?”)
….. 80% of spouses wish their spouse would choose a different profession.
….. 80% say pastoral ministry has had a negative effect on the family.
….. 80% of pastors feel unqualified and discouraged as pastors.
….. 90% feel they are inadequately trained to cope with the ministry demands.
….. Why would people look to him, the pastor? To model “Christian living?”
….. When the pastors life, and families life, is such a mess?
———
There is more but you get the drift….
“Why are people asking pastors & leader wannabes” (Anything?)
They have taken a “Title/Position” NOT found in the scriptures…
For one of His Disciples… pastor/leader…
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When you read the court documents you will note that in the report to the sheriffâs officer on March 15, (I think) 2005 that Steven got a âwild hairâ to go pray (should have been prey in my opinion) and lay hands on the girls. I would not have believed it either but the father is writing the report. It is very disturbing.
Rose
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Also, I think Mr. X relied on Doug Wilson for counsel (many members of the Kirk are completely dependent on Doug for advice, and clearly Doug in the initial phone call made the day Mr. X discovered the abuse, did not tell him to call the authorities. What was that all about? Hence, my comment (entirely speculation) that Doug was meeting with the abuser and mapping out his strategy. Equally concerning to me is the Head of Household letter I think in November of that year â eight months after the disclosures â before members of the church were alerted. Community members whose children might have been molested (none that I am aware of, I hasten to say) only learned about this because a disgruntled member announced it in a public blog site. No other member of the church told anyone that I know of (in fairness, as I am a 60 year resident of the town I know lots of folks, but certainly not everyone). The Kirk (especially with bad news) is a closed-mouthed group – which Doug apparently demands as a token of loyalty. His elders are complete toadies. They knew all of this so even if Doug fails on the integrity scale, he has lots of company.
Rose
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As of today, He Never Did.
Ees Party Line, Loyal Kirk Members.
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@JulieAnne:
i.e. The only reason he’s doing little kids is Widdle Wifey don’t put out for him when He Wanna. Is she his inflatable sex doll or something? (And considering how arrested-development these Widdle Christian Wifey types are made into, shouldn’t she be perpetual child enough for his pedophilia? Maybe that’s the rationale…)
Oh, SBC.
Salvation by Marriage Alone plus Calvin Saith.
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@Katy:
Of course not.
Rank Hath Its Privileges.
Years ago, JMJ over at Christian Monist described how in the rural Tennessee church where he grew up, it was an open secret that one of the Elders (Youth Pastor or Music Minister?) was a pedophile.The Respectable Pillars of the Church used to steer new members with kids towards Pastor Pedo in the hope he would rape the newbies’ kids, not MINE.
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@Kathi:
Father was a Good Little Kirk Member and Pastor Doug hadn’t told him how he should react? (Or maybe Pastor did tell him how to react. After all, Short-eyes Stitler IS his Court Favorite…)
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That only went up to 2012 – did I miss something? Admittedly, I’m on my phone.
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After reading through the comments, I figure I should respond to a few of them. Several of you have made comments that I have been concerned about the welfare of Doug and Sitler with no regard for anyone else. What about you? The advice was more for your benefit than theirs.
Several of you ask why go to a pastor for sexual/family advice? Why do you go to your friend, mother, shrink, whatever? You believe they have something to offer which will help you.
Rose Husky has been an adversary of Doug’s for many years. This is just the latest hobby horse.
Doug is somewhat restricted as to what he can say because of minister confidentiality.
Christ Church is not affiliated with Church of Christ. Church of Christ is a denomination. Christ Church is in a Presbyterian denomination. CRÈC The two denominations have no contact.
Most pedophiles are brilliant psychologists. Before they ever touch a child, they, groom the adults around them so if a child talks they usually won’t be believed. Think of the shock. The parents had to deal with the shock and hurt of being fooled. Doug would have had that same sense of shock and hurt. The fact that they called the cops is what is commendable. A LOT of churches won’t call the cops at all. That is what pedophiles count on. The victim isn’t the only person victimized.
I think the marriage was unwise. What should I do? Throw Doug under a bus? The answer is absolutely not. He is not a power hog. Second to his father, he has more integrity than any man I have ever met. You will never have an R.C. Sproul. jr. Or Doug Phillips mess about him. His daughters are extremely intelligent women, his son a nationally recognized children’s author. I have never seen him lose his cool. Though unwise, show me from Scripture that what he did was a sin.
This brings me to my final point. None of you have figured why I think this wa unwise.
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“Father was a Good Little Kirk Member and Pastor Doug hadn’t told him how he should react? (Or maybe Pastor did tell him how to react. After all, Short-eyes Stitler IS his Court Favorite…)”
And parents reported being threatened with Church Discipline.
I saw the same thing happen at my former NeoCal church (California). Excommunications/shunnings of all dissenters (including a godly doctor in his late 60s). Sex offenders are handled the same way. A convicted Megan’s List sex offender was welcomed by the pastors/elders, defended, given church membership, a leadership position, and all adults and parents were not told. I discovered the sex offender on Megan’s List by accident while doing another research project. The pastors/elders defended him, his *repentance*, etc. I had seen the sex offender run his hands through my friend’s 4-year old son’s hair and my friends didn’t know the man was a sex offender. The pastors/elders said it wasn’t a big deal, they trusted him with their kids, etc. I was excommunicated/shunned by the pastors/elders.
My friends packed up and moved to another area under the guise of being near family. If they had protected their son any other way (or their other children) they would have faced church discipline too. Smart parents.
I think that there is probably a lot of sexual abuse that goes on in these patriarchal churches that we will eventually hear about in the years to come.
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“Christ Church [Doug Wilson’s church/R. Lloyd’s church] is not affiliated with Church of Christ. Church of Christ is a denomination. Christ Church is in a Presbyterian denomination. CRÈC The two denominations have no contact.” – R Lloyd
Which Presbyterian governing body has charge over Christ Church?
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I watched the video of the Sitler wedding. Someone on TWW pointed out to me that the prayer for children is at the beginning of the ceremony. I had to watch again, because I had forwarded to the end of the ceremony.
Wilson asks a pastor Tucker to give the invocation. He begins praying around the 7:48 mark. At the 8:30 mark he says, “Bestow upon these servants, if it be thy will, the gift and heritage of children.” Who on God’s green Earth prays for a serial pedophile to have children?
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Why was it unwise for Sitler to be provided with a wife?
1) It is unfair for a naive young woman to be asked to sacrifice herself to help an incurable pedophile.
2) any children they have are in danger especially given that some of his early victims were members of his extended family.
3) it may give him cover with the parents of potential victims who don’t know he is a registered sex offender.
Those are the three that matter to me.
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“Christ Church is not affiliated with Church of Christ. Church of Christ is a denomination. Christ Church is in a Presbyterian denomination. CRÈC The two denominations have no contact.” R. Lloyd
@R. Lloyd,
I found nothing on the Christ Church (Moscow, Idaho) website indicating they are accountable to a higher governing body of the Presbyterian denomination. Which Presbyterian organization has oversight of Christ Church?
How exactly are you defining “Presbyterian”? Are you talking about following the teachings of Calvin and Knox and being elder led?
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I would hardly call Sitler”s “contact resulting in actual sexual stimulation” with his infant son a “hobby horse.” Not when Sitler has previously forced a two-year-old child to put Sitler’s penis in his mouth. Not when Sitler has placed his unclothed genitals against other children’s unclothed genitals.
Men of integrity don’t marry off pedophiles and hope they have children. Men of integrity don’t try to obfuscate when it backfires. We have access to court records, police statements, and much more. Doug Wilson can’t even admit he made a mistake. That’s not integrity.
“It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.”
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http://thewartburgwatch.com/2015/09/07/things-are-hopping-in-moscow-a-new-website-dedicated-to-steven-sitlers-pedophilia-history/comment-page-1/#comment-219045
I want to throw up.
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R. Lloyd,
According to this article by a University of Idaho professor, a former professor of your pastor Doug Wilson’s “Federal Vision” theollogy has been rejected by every conservative Presbyterian denomination:
“Wilson is also founder of New St. Andrews College in Moscow, on which the City Council has placed an enrollment cap because of its central downtown location. Wilson also runs a 3-year seminary program Greyfriars Hall, the graduates of which are sent to plant new churches after the Christ Church model. Furthermore, Wilson co-founded the Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches, a small denomination that follows the “Federal Vision,”a theology now rejected by every major conservative Presbyterian denomination. Finally, Wilson has his own publishing house, Canon Press, which at one time grossed an average of $1 million per year.”
http://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/ngier/WilsonEmpire.htm
*****************************************
Isn’t Doug Wilson’s Christ Church unaffiliated with any of the Presbyterian organization and has no oversight?
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@ R Lloyd said
No, no, Lloyd.
I specifically said why go to Christian preachers and Christian TV hosts.
I said nothing of going to friends or a psychologist for input.
Even so, even if a person wants to seek out opinions from various people, one should still make up one’s own mind after weighing the opinions of other people.
To be over-reliant on the views and advice of others is to make one vulnerable to all sorts of problems such as being taken advantage of. People need to think for themselves, at the end of the day.
I’m over the age of 40. I was brought up to be codependent, largely under Christian teaching of “gender complementarianism.”
One facet of this is that I never learned (until the last few years) to think for myself in regards to my life, and I did not make choices for my own life.
I was conditioned to always seek out Christian input (from sermons, books, Christian church going family) rather than make up my own mind about choices I had to make in my own life. This really messed me up in myriad ways I don’t want to detail here, otherwise this post would be twenty feet long.
Most Christians, particularly the pastors and celebrity figures, such as the Doug Wilsons, Mark Driscolls, and John Pipers, and especially because they are sexist and sacrifice women to make life easier for men, should not be trusted sources for sex or marriage advice. Some of their views, besides being sexist and unfair to women and letting men of the hook, are just ridiculous.
I’ve arrived at an age in life where I realize these guys (celebrity pastors or even non celeb pastors) don’t necessarily know any more than I do about life, sex, dating, marriage or the Bible.
I am smart enough and competent enough to make choices about my own life. I don’t need input from Doug Wilson or John Piper.
Again, a husband wrote to Doug Wilson asking him how to get his wife interested in sex.
No where did I see Wilson (that I can recall) tell the guy, “why are you asking me this? Why not ask YOUR WIFE what is going on?”
On another note, the majority of Christians are so backwards, sexist and ignorant about marriage, sex, and dating, it would behoove any husband in such a situation (ie, wife not “into” sex) to seek out a SECULAR professional therapist or marriage counselor about intimacy problems, if speaking to the wife first does not resolve things.
Your average Christian is just going to tell the wife to submit more, pray about it, and they will quote some Bible verses at her. None of that will actually rectify the situation.
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R LLOYD said,
“Though unwise, show me from Scripture that what he did was a sin.”
============
The Bible exhorts Christians to be wise, he was unwise. Right there at the start is your first problem.
The Bible talks about the marriage bed not being defiled. Sitler already arrived to the marriage bed being a fornicator, and the worst kind, one who engaged in sex acts with children.
Doug Wilson took advantage of a young women who was desperate to marry and who is naive and lacks life experience. Wilson defrauded her and was deceitful in the whole thing. Those are not hallmarks of an upstanding person, certainly not one who is qualified to be a preacher.
Wilson also has defended slavery, is sexist, and basically practices rape apologia with his “men like to plant and conquer, women to lay back and accept” garbage.
See also (for a few examples of Doug Wilson’s sexist commentary):
_Pastors: Stop Disrespecting Women With Your Chauvinistic Name-Calling_
The Bible does not condone sexism, but Wilson sure does. I don’t care if he has daughters. He has indoctrinated them to believe in the sexist nonsense they peddle, I have no doubt.
The Bible says not to even have the appearance of evil, but Wilson sure has the appearance of evil and wrong doing.
If we were talking about “Joe Smith Preacher,” I have a feeling you’d not be coming to the defense of some Joe Smith you don’t know. But because it’s Wilson, you will defend him.
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***Like to
A. Amos Love at your 9:50 comment. Your data is correct, and there is absolutely nothing that a pastor/leadership has that I want in this life……..for we already have Jesus, His Word, and His Eternal Salvation. And it doesn’t get any better than that!
You are so valuable and I learn so much from your posts. Thankful you are here on Julie Ann’s site!
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“I was tweeting with a SBC pastor yesterday and he defending Doug Wilson. He was saying it would be better for Steven to be married. Why? To help his sexual urges. I immediately thought of Katie – that these men are using Katie as an object to help reduce his sexual tension. The effort is to defend a perpetrator and put extra burden on Katie, as if she can help fix a pedophile. Where is she as an individual being valued? This sure does sound like the conquer and surrender/accept scenario that Doug Wilson used to describe marital sex.”
This is why so many churches are not safe. Chances are people would never know this about how their pastor thinks unless he outright told them from the pulpit or a horrible situation arose to make it clear. That is at least one thing social media is pointing out: how they might think that you would never have known.
If they rush to defend the “authority” or person in power circles then you can pretty much discern where their idea of justice lies. Reading the docs has made me quite ill. Sitler seems like person who is playing a long con and Doug Wilson was perfect for him as a mirror narcissists who was already a cultic figure for years. I have read a lot of Doug and his views which are repugnant. He has a system that caters to him but also leaves plausible deniability for bad decisions. Typical of the type. If Doug was fooled for all these years it is because he was not thinking of that 2 year old who was molested and he knew about when he was so involved. And that was a CHOICE on his part. So he was not really fooled at all. The two year old girl was devalued and not important to him. She is a throw away in this scenerio as Sitler gets all the attention as the “redemption” story.
Personally, I think due to Doug’s persona that has played out in public, I think there was a morbid fascination with Sitler that is sick. Wilson runs a cult in the “kirk” which is a play on John Knox…another creepy historical figure these guys love to worship.
There is not one thing a Doug defender could say to me to make me see him any different than what I have read from his own pen and heard from his own mouth. It is a cult.
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Hi Lydia,
R. Lloyd posted today here: “Christ Church is in a Presbyterian denomination. ” Lloyd goes to Wilson’s church.
I couldn’t find Christ Church is affiliated with any kind of Presbyterian denomination oversight. One of Wilson’s former professors at the University of Idaho wrote this:
“Furthermore, Wilson co-founded the Confederation of Reformed Evangelical Churches, a small denomination that follows the “Federal Vision,”a theology now rejected by every major conservative Presbyterian denomination.” [I [posted the link earlier to that as well today.]
Your thoughts, please?
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Velour, CREC is where Sproul Jr went for a while when he was defrocked by the Presbyterians. I don’t know what came out of it but it was when I first learned of Wilson and was astonished when I read his writings that people actually took him seriously as a pastor or educator.
One thing folks learned the hard way when they wanted RC Sproul SR “disciplined” for his shenanigans at Ligoneir (including defrauding his partner) and other donor frauds—is that he was NOT in a Presbyterian denomination! His Presbyterian church was independent. He answered to no one. It came as a shock to that crowd. Evidently he kept it a secret. My guess is that CREC probably came about the same way— for no accountability. Doug is the de facto Pope of CREC.
I used to read Michael Metzler, too. He worked for Doug and had a lot of insight into the inner workings of the “kirk”. He even titled his blog, Pooh’s Think. :o)
It was back when I was first starting to see how corrupt so much of Christendom is. I kept asking, “Where is Jesus Christ”? Jesus Christ is nothing like these men. Which is a big clue.
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Doug, in a singular example of his desperate need to control everything he touches, invented the Communion of Reformed Evangelicals (aka Confederation of Reformed Evangelicals). Graduates from his phony seminary, Greyfriars Hall are required to establish a church plant and classical Christian school when they âgraduate.â Doug calls himself Presbyterian in an effort to achieve some kind of respectability. When pressed he admits that the word actually refers to church governance. He has elders, deacons and a session. And they all kiss the ring of the Pope of the Palouse.
image found at: http://federal-vision.blogspot.com/
Rose Huskey
PS Steven Sitlers dad, Dave Sitler until the last couple of weeks, was listed as a deacon at Holy Trinity church in Colville, Washington. I have no idea if he still holds the office, but I imagine he name was removed to protect the reputation of CREC
.
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Hi Lydia,
Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense to me and I was thinking along similar lines.
“It was back when I was first starting to see how corrupt so much of Christendom is. I kept asking, “Where is Jesus Christ”? Jesus Christ is nothing like these men. Which is a big clue.”” – Lydia
^Exactly!
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Velour: The CREC is the “denomination.” Thing is, it’s a wholly in-house deal. I looked at the CREC’s website and Doug Wilson is described as the presiding minister. He can call it “Presbyterian” all he wants, but it screams “cult” to me.
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Lydia, did you mean Sproul, Jr. here:
“One thing folks learned the hard way when they wanted RC Sproul SR “disciplined” for his shenanigans at Ligoneir”
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R. Lloyd,
Again you post here blathering on at great length about hat a wonderful humanitarian Doug Wilson is, and still not one word from you about Steven Sitler’s victims. Absolutely appalling.
You ask if you should through Doug Wilson under the bus. The answer is YES, YOU SHOULD. He is not fit for his job.
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Thanks, Mirele, for your digging about Doug Wilson’s denominational *affiliation*.
I didn’t think his church was part of the Presbyterian organization. My first tip-off: The Presbyterians have child sexual abuse prevention policies and trainings and wouldn’t handle something of this seriousness the way Wilson has handled it.
Excellent job you did on the Twitter exchanges re Baylys, Kamilla, etc!
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Mirele, you’re on Twitter? I must follow!
@govpappy
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“Lydia, did you mean Sproul, Jr. here:”
No, there was an attempt by some bloggers to have SENIOR disciplined by the Presbyterian folks in Fla. Not sure what group as I am totally confused about Presbyterian polity and groups. They were shocked to find out his church was independent that used the Presbyterian label.
The whole thing was a big deal because Ligoneir lawyers went after a blogger for discussing Ligoneir practices and his interaction with Seniors son in law who was president and the Gen Mgr of Ligoneir, who is Ligon Ducan’s brother, James. . It was one of the earliest lawsuits of its kind because of blogging. Glenn Reynolds the instapundit, the Orlando Sentinel and USA Today all wrote about it. I cannot remember the year….07? 09?
The Sproul JUNIOR defrocking happened around the same time but he was obviously accountable to a denomination. Jr’s online book, Ligoneir Tales, became quite the sensation. It was taken down, though. It was not exactly positive about Ligoneirs founding. And it was a bit embarassing that Sr’s grandson was online bragging about inheriting grandpas business, their huge home and chugging tons of beer in pics on myspace.
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Remember on some post before, I was wondering why some Christians, if they are having marital issues with their wives, don’t just go ask their wives about it, instead of writing to Doug Wilson (or Driscoll, Piper, etc)?
I just found this at CREC Memes:
_It’s Pretty Important (Thou shall not talk with your wives)_
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Hi Daisy,
I put a youtube video on unhealthy churches on the tab at the top of the page here under the Off-Topic Discussion tab.
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What would you have me say about the victim? She is a young woman now. I know her parents, not well, but I know them. Good people. What would you have me say? You have have to live forever with the title of victim?
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There were more than one victim. Sitler pled guilty to one count of abusing one child but he confessed to molesting others. Our focus here is on the victims, on prevention both in regard to future potential victims and in regard to appropriately dealing with other pedophiles in the church so that children will be safe. We hope that the victims are doing well but we recognize that people do the best the can in healing from trauma and they recover at their own pace.
I wouldn’t care about Wilson in that he doesn’t affect me and adults can make the choice to follow him if they want. Children have no choice, however, and he ought not to have put this newborn child at such risk.
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“What would you have me say about the victim? She is a young woman now. I know her parents, not well, but I know them. Good people. What would you have me say? You have have to live forever with the title of victim?”
We could start with pleading with the judge for the longest sentence possible. Then we can go from there with serious prevention like not sacrificing a sheltered girl to him in marriage. This was a disaster in the making for a baby. The world seems to revolve around the predator. It does not surprise me a bit you do not know what to say about his victims. That is the world you are in. The adults are not protectors of children.
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Translations by Ellie nails it again!
http://translationsbyellie.com/index.php/2015/09/07/translation-of-doug-wilsons-open-letter-on-steven-sitler/
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@R Lloyd,
Sitler’s parents KNEW that he repeatedly sexually abused children prior to his dating and marriage to Katie. He sexually abused children in his own family and the children of other Christian families across the United States.
Sitler’s parents (and church’s pastors/elders) were fine with sacrificing MORE children to sexual abuse, including their grandson? They were fine with incest? This is unconscionable. Not even UNBELIEVERS do this.
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You could start by not defending the jerk you claim as your pastor. He is not without guilt in this matter. His bogus false teaching created much of this mess. He set up a woman for a life with a predator, and then handled the entire matter poorly when the inevitable happened. Maybe you could be a man and take a stand , file charges with the session against your pastor. You reformed folks seem to be pretty quick to do that when a woman leaves her abusive husband, but when one of your boys is in the wrong you run from your ecclesiastical responsibility ( that responsibility that you guys speak so much about when filing charges on everyone else).
Let’s be real clear…..
Yes, setting a pedophile up with a naive young woman so she can ” serve ” a member of your church as a sexual diversion to keep him away from the kids Is SIN. It is no different than what many of the other patriarchal cults like the FLDS do.
Label her a victim for life, no. Branding the word scumbag across your pastor’s forehead, you bet. I’m left wondering if all the men in your “church” are as much of a Wison apologist / pansy boy as you appear. Your flippant attitude towards what has happened in this case is demonstrative of the damage down by Wilson’s teaching. It’s like you people just don’t get it or don’t care, since the victim wasn’t your daughter or ” is just a woman”. I’m not sure who is the bigger scumbag, guys like you & Doug Wilson or the pedophile. The argument can be made that he as a pervert sex offender is mentally ill and thus not as responsible for his actions. You and Wilson on the other hand should know better. Then again, maybe all three of you are sick & twisted people that the Christian community needs to monitor closely.
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R Lloyd,
You do not understand what it means to be sexually abused, particularly at a very young age. IT PERMANENTLY DESTROYS YOUR SEXUAL WIRING. IT RUINS THE HEALTHY DEVELOPMENT OF A CHILD’S BRAIN. For the remainder of their natural life a victim of sexual abuse cannot have normal, healthy sexual responses to normal, healthy relationships. It takes decades of intensive therapy and medication to fix the damage, if it can be fixed at all. Many victims of sexual abuse end up committing suicide in mid-life because they cannot break free of the neurological damage that has been embedded in their brains by their abusers.
I speak as a victim of sexual abuse who, in my mid-40’s, has never once woken up in the morning not wanting to blow my brains out. I haul my sorry ass out of bed and I grit my teeth and I plow through my day and I do the best I can, but I am alone and I have no one and I cannot establish a healthy love relationship with a woman because of what a family member did to me when I was a child.
You are flippant and dismissive of the victims because you are immersed in a culture which says “Oh, well you were a victim once but now you’re not anymore. Just pray real hard and you’ll be fine. And submit yourself to your patriarchs, don’t question us, do as we say or else you’re sinning and then everything will just be your fault anyway.” It’s the vilest sort of continuous abuse.
You want to do the right thing? Have some balls for once in your life. Be a man. Stand up and denounce Doug Wilson. Open the books on the man and shine the cold hard light of day on his worthless apostasy and his disgusting distortions of the love of Christ. Throw your weight on the right side of society, and DON’T LET THE BASTARD TAKE A PASS. HOLD HIM RESPONSIBLE.
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Like I keep saying, sooner or later the courts are gonna come down hard and heavy on these aberrant Protestant sects just as they did with the Catholic scandals in times past. Their squeamishness in going after high profile Protestants is wearing thin. Child molestation is a crime. Those who facilitate it, try to cover it up, or try to ‘handle it in house under religious freedom’ without filing a police report, will also go down for complicity.
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“What should I do? Throw Doug under a bus? ”
Doug Wilson threw a baby under the bus! There is a baby boy in danger of being RAPED by his own father. A few people actually find that traumatizing.
Just think of the little boy, one day swinging on his swing set, he looks in the house through the window, he sees his father looking at him, the little boy has to ask himself, do I need to go hide behind a tree because daddy thinks sexual thoughts about me? What a gross childhood!
Your hero Doug Wilson set this little boys perverted little boyhood in motion. A child should NOT be worried any one thinks he is attractive, especially his own father.
Your cavalier attitude about baby sexual abuse and your outrage about Doug Wilson being criticized. Doug Wilson sure is teaching you people what matters to HIM.
If only people would just take pity on poor Doug Wilson and forget all about those wretched little sexually abused children.
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What is going to happen to this baby boy’s psyche when he grows up to find out that his dad was sexually stimulated by him as an infant? That seems like sexual abuse and emotional abuse to me.
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Hi Dash,
From the bottom of my heart, thank you for telling your story of being sexually abused and traumatized with such candor. I so appreciate you here and so do other people.
Thank you for being an advocate for children.
You know this story has been so hard for so many of us, and it is like the varnish has been stripped off a piece of furniture. For some reason this past week – because of this story – I remembered years ago when a friend (married) asked me to go on an errand with her husband. I did. In the car he threatened to rape me. I said, “You realize that I carry a knife with me at all times and I will stab you.” I then took out my Swiss Army Knife from my purse, opened up the largest blade, and held it the other time.
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^correction: entire
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“What is going to happen to this baby boy’s psyche when he grows up to find out that his dad was sexually stimulated by him as an infant? That seems like sexual abuse and emotional abuse to me. “-Julie Anne
And what is going to happen to this boy when he contemplates ALL of the people who BETRAYED him because it was *too convenient* for ANY of them to do the right thing? A mother who couldn’t do the right thing. Two sets of grandparents who couldn’t do the RIGHT THING (paternal and maternal). Countless relatives. A senior pastor and elders. Friends. Church members.
What will this son think about God? What will this son think about all of the people who *claimed* they love Jesus but didn’t love Jesus enough to protect a little boy. None of them could be bothered to protect a little boy. It was too much trouble. Their massive egos, massive reputations, their pride, all of the wrong decisions they have made, never fixing what they did wrong. And wanting a little boy to pay the price.
When the Lord said we weren’t to use His name in vain, wasn’t He talking about actions like this too? Or inactions like this?
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100pinkapples,
What I said to Dash, I say to you too: You have enormous value here too and I really appreciate you and your candor, your protection for children.
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Ok, add spiritual abuse to that list, too.
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Hi Dash,
Here’s a link to the Promises of a 12-step program called Debtors Anonymous:
Click to access 12-Promises-Debtors-Anonymous.pdf
Omit the words you don’t care for. At different times in my life I have referred people to this program (online, in-person, or phone-in meetings). Beneath debtings and underearning are generally unresolved issues of abuse.
I am praying for the day for you to wake up in the morning and to be glad to be alive.
I am praying for months of that for you. I’m starting tonight.
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Velour,
Thank you for your prayers. I appreciate your thoughts. I am in therapy and I have been taking medication for over 20 years; neither does much good, but it’s better than zero.
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Dash – sometimes I am at a loss for words when I read your powerful comments. I get tears in my eyes and anger wells up within me when you bring me back to your reality and what you deal with every s.i.n.g.l.e. day. People need to read your voice and your anger. Thank you for expressing it here. I wish I could hug you and it would all go away. I want you to be free of this burden you’ve been carrying for so many years. Thank you for hanging with us and being part of our community.
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Hi Dash,
You are welcome. I am glad you have therapy, Rx. I just yanked my prayer journal off my book shelf and I am writing a prayer for you, buddy. I will be praying for you every day. Just for the smallest healing and hope, glimmers of goodness.
Have you ever made a Visions Collage? You buy a piece of poster board at the drugstore (like for a school project) and some magazines. Cut out pictures and words of whatever strikes your fancy. Whatever you would like for your life.
I haven’t done one in awhile. I am planning to get some of the materials and do one. Then hang it up.
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Meanwhile in the comments on DW’s latest post: “I suspect that the problem some commenters here have with the marriage of someone who had problems with sexual deviancy in the past has everything to do with Wilson being in the picture.”
Ugh. “Had problems with sexual deviancy?” Hmmm. What is missing here?
RIGHT. The VICTIMS.
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@Sarah,
Wilson apparently still sees himself as the center of the universe if that’s what he wrote. The fact of the matter is we – Christians across the political spectrum and denominational spectrum, and those of various faiths, and those of no faith – don’t care about the name of the person(s) who married a pedophile and a young woman, that has now produced a baby boy who is the target of sexual abuse. We only care that ANY FOOL would do that!
Will Wilson ever *man up* and protect a baby boy? This is appalling! Wilson claims to have brains, yet did he ever expect to kick it into gear and use the brains the good Lord gave him?
Opening up the phone to a page at random, closing your eyes, and pointing your finger at a man’s name would have been a safer way to choose a husband for Katie and a father for a little boy.
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I probably should have asked this sooner, but who or what is the “Kirk”?
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R. Lloyd,
You said and can’t even believe you were so cold!!!!!, “What would you have me say? You have to live forever with the title of victim?” No, she doesn’t have to live forever as a victim. She can over come!! BUT, Sitler will ALWAYS be a pedophile. He has proven that!! He should NOT have been enabled to continue on with his evil to begin with!!. He should NOT have been encouraged to marry or have children. That only created easy access to new victims.
Having been the victim of a pedophile, I know what it takes to over come victim status. These young victim’s may never be completely free of that horror.
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Velour,
The light bulb went off when you mentioned a Visions Collage. My youngest daughter was a collage freak while growing up. She had an absentee dad who was a violent man, but she was too young to know and I did not tell her. Her sister eventually enlightened her after he had died and she was an adult. Those collages helped her get through the pain of not having a “real” dad. I wish I had thought to make my own with her. I can see where this would be right up there with journaling our feelings. In fact, better when you are looking at what you want life to become in a good way.
To all of us that were abused in anyway, I pray for healing and a happy life no matter how long it takes. Dash, your life is valuable and you are loved. It is hard to take away the power and control that those horrid people have over us when we have been so wronged at an early age. It has taken me most of 58 years, a lot of fear and tears, a lot of anger to begin to let it go. Most days I think I have, but then there are days when reality stares me in the face. It happened, but it is not happening now.
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Dash…. =[ Holy crap. Just keep speaking out, Dash. We’re with you.
Our most powerful defense against these guys is the experiences of the victims of authoritarian abuse.
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Kathi,
Thank you for the link to Ellie’s translation. She is spot on every time!!!
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Julie, I can’t help but think that if more pastors had your mothering instinct (If I can call it that), some of these churches wouldn’t be the toxic places they are.
Yeah, I’m wanting men (since most of them are) to step up to the plate and be a mother, like Jesus gave us an example.
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Whoa, Velour. My husband is in a boatload of debt. We resolved to work our way through it instead of file for bankruptcy, and were disciplined by our church for not choosing bankruptcy as they advised. I knew the church being all involved in his business and our lives contributed to the debt, but I never connected his abusive upbringing to it directly. Thank you for sharing that.
Sometimes I wish he had filed for bankruptcy. What we’ve gone through the last 3 1/2 years is almost unbearable at times. OTOH, I’m growing some enviable cojones.
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@Dash
Nothing speaks more powerfully than the voice of a victim/survivor. Thank you for using your voice to speak for other victims.
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Dash – Thank you for sharing your pain with us (especially with R. Lloyd who really needs to hear it). I’m sure it’s not easy to retell because it can bring back the memories. I keep hoping that when more people are willing and able to tell their stories, folks like R. Lloyd will wake up out of their stupor to finally understand how horrible child abuse is.
Dash, your voice is important here and I appreciate hearing from you whenever you comment. ::Hugs:: to you!
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“OTOH, I’m growing some enviable cojones.”
LOVE IT! Knowing and following Jesus does not mean being a doormat, does it?
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I personally know of another situation where Doug counseled a young wife to stay with a husband that had a computer full of child porn, because of course he was repentant and wanting to change his ways… The couple is still together. 😦 Doug Wilson is a fool!
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No more!,
I’m thinking that nothing was reported, the wife was also counseled to give him more sex and he still has his computer. Just my theory.
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Dash,
You nail it every time. I appreciate you more than you will ever know, I pray for you often. What you said right here is so spot on:
“You do not understand what it means to be sexually abused, particularly at a very young age. IT PERMANENTLY DESTROYS YOUR SEXUAL WIRING. IT RUINS THE HEALTHY DEVELOPMENT OF A CHILD’S BRAIN.”
I have lived with the fall out of being sexually abused as a child for 6 decades. I didn’t get professional help till I was in my late 40’s because of the teaching “psychology is of the devil.” Along with the list of all the should’s I needed to accomplish before Jesus healed me.
I hate that I served my ass off, tithed, fasted, prayed & cried for God to heal me. I was told I must have some hidden sin otherwise I would be healed. It has been one hell of a ride with guilt, shame, worthlessness & fear.
I got lucky, my husband has been patient with me on all my ups & downs with my messed up sexuality, he respects my feelings and has never cheated on me because I shut down and cannot bear his touch. He is kind & understanding & his tenderness pays off in time. He didn’t by into all the crap Mr. Love & Respect taught from the pulpit.
I hope Jesus kicks some serious ass someday. To think, the poor wives of the pastor creeps are set up for sexual slavery. Oh & for the record, I use to feel so guilty for saying no, thanks to the shit head in the pulpit. I am so grateful that I don’t buy any of that crap anymore. Sorry, but not sorry, I feel so passionate about that evil toxic teaching.
100 Pinkapples, I love you too, your voice is strong & Holy. This is my safe place, my church.
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@Dash, thanks for sharing and being on here. You are brave and valuable to all who hear your voice.
I want to share something that happened this weekend that sent a shock of deep horror and confusion through me–
I have been dealing with decades of abuse of many children in the ‘church of christ’ (NOT denominational) that I grew up in. This weekend I managed to ‘enrage’ the current Elder? Youth Leader? and unfortunate son of one of the child molesters who carried on over a year long sexual relationship with a teen (of the same sex). This happened decades ago, but the fallout from the 15 girls abused has been horrific. This weekend the son tried to talk to me (I mean he tried to yell and scare me)– but in the uncomfortable exchange this is what he shouted (which really points to the frightening deeper thinking of this ‘church’ leaders). He said to me “go Away” “there are no child molesters here”– I said “yes, your mother is still teaching sunday school” He said “She is not a child molester” I said– “do you think having sexual interaction with teens is okay for adults?” He said “NO” I said” “She is a child molester and should not be in leadership or teaching sunday school” He said “She is not a child molester” I said– “Then what do you call it?” and the truth flew out of his mouth— He said “I don’t know– But it is not a child molester”
And at that moment I was sickened and stunned at the truth—- They cannot even acknowledge truth when it is about their own friends, relatives or leaders– they cannot even speak the truth– and that is how they can act as if the ‘victims’ are no big deal. Because in their mind– ‘child molestation’ didn’t even occur– something else occurred– something they cannot define or label— but they are convinced in their own minds it was NOT “child molestation”.
This was one of the most sickening realizations that I have been confronted with but very eye opening– in a most perverse way. The foundations of how so many children are victimized with the churches knowledge runs so very deep.
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For the record, Dash, you are not the only one to be sexually abused. I was sexually sbused by an older child in front of his pals. You’re not gonna like the answer to getting over it. You gotta get rid of the bitterness. It is the chain around your soul. I don’t wake up in internalized rages anymore. You will never have peace as long as you are bitter.
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Which is a CRIME! Did Wilson encourage the wife to call the authorities? Because that’s one of his defenses in the Sitler case. Like Brenda, I’m betting he didn’t.
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@R Lloyd
FYI, we don’t play the “bitter” card around here.
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R.Lloyd, You are so predictable in playing the bitter card.
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BTDT- Great minds ( ;
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Lloyd…. This ain’t gonna be pretty. I’m warning you now, because you should darned well know as a survivor you don’t get to label other people’s pain as “bitterness”.
I don’t see how in the hell you can sit there and read what Dash wrote and call him bitter.
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“Bitterness” – A word worthy to be put in the dog house.
R. Lloyd – You have no right to tell someone to not be bitter and to get over it. Everyone’s experience is different. To say this means that you lack empathy and compassion.
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R Lloyd,
“Get rid of your bitterness”???????. How are pain and bitterness related????? R. Lloyd you need serious help with your empathy and communication skills.
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R Lloyd, beg pardon ahead of time if I have misconstrued your meaning and purpose.
However, your comment (September 7, 2015 @ 11:02 AM) is concerning.
It reads like someone who is toying with the other commenters, rather than making a cogent defense. Of course, if you are trying to defend the indefensible, it’s understandable that such a defense is difficult to mount.
Your tone, rather than being grieved at others’ “misunderstanding” of your (apparent) mentor and “misconstruing” of his motives, is arrogant, superior, supercilious, patronizing. I am quite familiar with that tone. It is common among associates of Wilson (as well as organizations where he has/had influence, such as Credenda Agenda and NSA. You use subtle ad hominem techniques to belittle Wilson’s detractors.
Several other commenters have countered your points from that comment, so I’ll just move to the last part of your comment.
This brings me to my final point. None of you have figured why I think this wa [sic] unwise.
This reads like narcissism in a nutshell. In a deadly serious discussion (we are talking about the lives and well-being of children), you playfully throw out a riddle.
I don’t care to play guessing games.
Go ahead. Do tell why you think this was unwise.
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If R. Lloyd truly was sexually abused, and can still accuse another of bitterness, I suspect he/she has actually not worked through the issue, but has compartmentalized the pain. In a bid for sympathy or perhaps trying to legitimize his/her argument further, he/she simply demonstrates even more clearly why his/her perceptions of Wilson’s role in this case are untrustworthy.
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shunnedandthreatened,
Thanks for sharing that story. You’re right. Unless the Holy Spirit renews their minds, they are stubbornly walking in darkness with the cold comfort of redefined terms.
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Brenda R.
Good point. Thanks for the clarification. A victim does not have to live forever classified as a victim. A pedophile, however, should be handled differently. I’m in favor of permanent classification and life-long consequences, though I understand how awful that would be in the case of a false accusation. (What kind of safeguards are in place to prevent false conviction? A friend of mine has worked tirelessly in the case of three youths who served 18 years for a murder they did not commit, and were finally proven innocent, so I’m sensitized to this issue.)
I know in the case of youthful offenders, for some crimes, their records are sealed when they turn 18, and only opened if they re-offend (in actual point, if they are caught re-offending. *sigh*). Or that’s my understanding, at least.
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“For the record, Dash, you are not the only one to be sexually abused.”
Dash never said he was! He is giving children that are being sexually abused today a voice, informing us of the aftermath of childhood sexual abuse. Which is much needed.
“You’re not gonna like the answer to getting over it. ”
“You gotta get rid of the bitterness. ”
A decent person would be massively ashamed they posted this.
This is what you say to someone who says he was sexually abused and is/or has been suicidal. You are a horrible human being.
The fruit that is sexually sadistic Doug Wilson shows its self. Typical selfish, heartless, hateful “get over it” and “you are bitter”. Makes the selfish heartless Christian feel like gold and the sexual abuse victim feel like dirt.
What I have came to understand about patriarchy Christians is they believe that it is far easier for sexual abuse victims to get over being sexually abused then it is for a patriarchy Christian to get over the fact that rape victims cant ever get over being sexually abused.
R. Lloyd you should spend the rest of your day in shame that you were so heartless, hateful, and dismissive to a sexual abuse survivor and someone who has been or is suicidal. I would be so sick at my stomach if I was you.
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