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Is there such a thing as “rape” in a Christian marriage?
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JA note: Thanks to Kathi for putting this post together this week as I’m finding my groove with a new term back at college.
***
***
Robert posts on his blog, A Man, His Wife, and the Bible and is married to Amanda. That is all that we know about Robert, although I do think that his Doctrines and Beliefs tab tells us quite a bit.
With regard to physical abuse, Robert believes that it is not grounds for divorce. Robert also believes that emotional abuse is overused and overblown by women today. He does think that both sexes are capable of emotional abuse, but it is more “culturally acceptable” for women to be emotionally abusive.
Adultery is the only Biblical grounds for divorce, and adultery is defined as “physical intercourse with someone not your spouse.” Forget that emotional stuff because everyone does it.
When children enter the picture, a wife is to teach them to honor the Lord and her husband. And, let’s not forget that a wife is to submit to her husband in all things – including his sexual desires – which does not surprise me in the least about Robert’s view of sexual abuse considering the following (added spaces for easier reading):
Sexual Abuse:
Biblically, we do not believe marital rape is possible. Scripture clearly teaches in 1 Corinthians 7 that a wife’s body is her husbands and a husband’s body is his wife’s.
We believe consent is given at marriage.
We believe the teaching on marital rape is a poison in the well of women’s hearts and minds towards their husbands and marriage & does much damage. However, we also do not condone a husband taking his wife against her will and strongly state that a man should not do so. In situations of repeated and enduring refusal, professional help and Matthew 18 need to be worked through & not force to be used.
We also believe that denying a spouse sex is just as much abuse as forcing sex upon a spouse.
Lastly, we do not believe sex where a man and woman engage in sex while intoxicated is rape.
In closing, we put equal responsibility on each party in such a situation. Any marriage where sexual abuse is taking place needs to get help from a pastor, or in some situations law enforcement. (Source)
Let’s pause there for a moment and look at the definition of marital rape:
Marital rape can be defined as any unwanted intercourse or penetration (vaginal, anal, or oral) obtained by force, threat of force, or when the wife is unable to consent. (Source)
Back to Robert…
How in the world can he honestly say that he does not believe that marital rape is possible when he states that he does not condone a husband taking his wife against her will? Taking a wife against her will is the definition of marital rape, therefore you must believe that marital rape is possible.
Robert doesn’t go so far as to say that sexual assault is a woman’s fault, but when I read this, I think he comes pretty close. He almost makes it sound that sexual assault is a result of a woman denying sex to her husband. And then to say each party has equal responsibility, but if raped while intoxicated is null and void? In the end, I think Robert’s belief that marital rape is not possible is because there are enough loopholes to get a man out of being accused of raping his wife.
Oh, by the way, when Robert says, “We do believe,” he is referring to himself and his wife, Amanda. He makes it very clear in the Doctrines and Beliefs that they both believe these things. This makes me sad for Amanda and I want to know if that is what she really believes. I certainly hope that this man is not a pastor. I can’t imagine that any woman who comes to them with problems in an abusive marriage will receive any help.
photo credit: Klardrommar via photopin cc
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Part 2
I’ve seen and read about other Christian men who do not even make exceptions for a married woman having sex when she is under stress, depressed, tired, sick or having her period. (This may not apply to Robert specifically, but I have seen other married Christian males argue these points.)
And when many women have their period, they do feel sick (there are back aches, cramps involved, aching joints, etc, and this goes on for three, five, or more days, before and/or during the period).
I believe it was sexist pervert preacher Mark Driscoll who said in his ‘Real Marriage’ book, or one of his sermons or blog pages, that women having their period or other illness, was not reason enough to forgo sex, that even sick women should still have sex with their spouse, but by using another bodily orifice (don’t know if Julie Anne would be comfortable with me using the four letter word that starts with the letter “A” for that sexual position).
A lot of Christian men are deeply entitled in this area. They care more about getting their own lusts satisfied(*) than they are in the welfare, health, or happiness, or sexual satisfaction of their wives.
*(Note I did not use the phrase “getting their own needs met” there, because having sex is not a need, nor is it a “right,” not even in marriage.
I am over 40 years of age and still a virgin because I’m single and waiting for marriage to have sex. My lack of sex has not killed me yet. Food is a need. Water is a need. Sex is not a need.)
And by the way, that I am over 40, have sexual desire but am still a virgin? Hey Robert: do you know how much sympathy I have for you – or for Mark Driscoll, or any married person, man or woman – who complains they are in a sexless marriage or not having as much as they would prefer? About zero, that’s how much.
Really, try being a virgin with a healthy sex drive at age 40+, where you’re not getting any sex over your life at all because you’re single and marriage hasn’t happened, then get back to me on the, “Boo hoo, I want sex once a week but am lucky if I get it once every X number of months.”
What would Robert do if his wife joined the Marines, Army, or Navy and was deployed for a year or more in Afghanistan, or on a submarine in the middle of the ocean? What if Robert’s wife was hit by a truck in a coma for five years, unable to have sex?
There was a letter to advice columnist Ann Landers or Dear Abby many years ago from a woman married to a Korean war vet. Her husband, the war vet, was wounded in his genital region and could not perform standard type of sex acts.
So, what if something like that happened to Robert or his wife, some physical impairment that made all sex, or certain sex acts, impossible?
Just the act of being married does not give you a permanent, “Sex Any time I Want It and How I Like It” pass or life time guarantee.
You cannot assume that being married is always tantamount to having sex, to having regular sex, or to having steamy hot great awesome sex, or to having sex whenever you want it, or however often you want it.
(continued in next post of mine)
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Addendum @ Barnabas:
I’m pretty sure Vox Day is also a white supremacist, so be warned also that multiple streams of crazy converge within MRA-dom into one big steaming pile of kookoo for Cocoa Puffs.
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@ missdaisyflower:
And wasn’t it C. J. Mahaney who told a story about Carolyn having sex with him during morning sickness and then throwing up immediately after?
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I am extremely tired, so I haven’t had a chance to read all the comments since I last posted yesterday. Went to Seahawks game yesterday, then this morning took a friend to the airport. I’m gonna get sleep after this comment, then be back.
Robert said:
” First, what part of a husband should not force his wife to have sex do you guys not understand?”
I already answered that question when I said that you talk out of both sides of your mouth. Just scroll up quite a bit. And, I also said that her body belongs to you FOR YOU to satisfy her…not so you can get what you need.
She gave you her body for YOU to make her feel good, so that she doesn’t have to do herself. Self is selfish is sin. But not if YOU do it for her. That’s what her body is for in regards to her body being yours, you freaking whack job.
Ed
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Part 3
For any man to deliberately withhold sexual satisfaction from his wife, to claim he only goes there 80% of the time, is very selfish – and strange and immature.
Even looking at Robert’s distorted view of the Pauline passages, if we go with that, Robert is failing to live them out himself.
If he was serious about it, about following those Pauline passages in the New Testament, he’d be striving for a 100% rate with his wife, not 80%, or some other arbitrary standard.
Is Robert saying his wife AGREES with the 80% rate? (Even if she does, I still see that as being in violation of the Pauline passages, even as understood by Robert).
But how can one argue that one is fine with a couple agreeing to abstain for X amount of time, but then, the husband decides unilaterally to intentionally attempt to withhold sexual satisfaction 20% of the time? That is hypocritical and inconsistent.
(BTW, I’ve seen this in other Christian men, not Robert in particular – but I came across a blog or two by married Christian men who try to “explain away” Paul’s instructions that it’s acceptable for a married couple to agree to sexually abstain.
These Christian men do NOT like that passage AT ALL and seek to water it down, or argue against what Paul wrote.
These men are so incredibly entitled and controlling, they are intentionally mis-interpreting the Bible to suit their own purposes.
If I can find links to those blogs again, I’d be happy to provide them later. I might have them bookmarked, I’d have to look.)
I’m amazed that Christians like Robert are apparently unfamiliar with the concept of self pleasuring (the “M” word). You can get by without your wife in this area, you know.
I’m sure involving another person may be enjoyable in its own way, but it’s not a requirement for the same pay off, if you get my drift. *wink, wink*
Also, Robert may think he’s only getting there 80% of the time with his wife, but she may be taking care of the other 20% all by herself when he’s not around, if you see what I’m getting at. *nudge nudge, wink, wink*
See for instance, this married woman’s letter to “Ask E Jean” about a similar situation:
_Ask Jean: My Husband Doesn’t Approve of Me “Strumming My Own Banjo”_
(this is a letter that is on the “Elle” site, fashion and beauty magazine type site)
(continued in next post)
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This is Amanda. I have to speak up, but I am not reading your vile, disgusting comments.
I am *happily* married to a man who is a very good man, a great husband and a fantastic father. I wouldn’t rather be married to anyone else, or single. I wouldn’t trade the life we have for anything. We ran the blog because our marriage was a shambles. When we abandoned the teaching of the church (which is the same teaching on this site) we finally found peace. The teaching of the church is pure poison and it is not Scriptural. It only fed to a horrible marriage. We found that God’s word says something different than what is being taught in the church and here. Thus, we began a blog because we wanted to help other couples whose marriages were being destroyed by the poison of the modern church. I approved every single word that was posted and I approve of the complete message of the blog.
I am SO MAD at you all at this moment. For a year now the Free Jingers have been harassing my family and I with such false claims such as these. Multiple times, I have said that I am HAPPY, my family is happy. There has never been an ounce of abuse from my husband. DO YOU GET THAT, PEOPLE????
First of all, you all are acting like a bunch of COWARDS!!!!! Some, all, whatever, have had access to everything we have said on our blog and elsewhere on the internet. NOT ONE SINGLE TIME did ANYONE ever e-mail me or contact me, instead you began spewing filth and lies. You have not made an effort to validate any of this, but rather have projected your own disgusting thoughts onto my husband and I.
For ten years, we had a horrible marriage. I entered marriage an unhappy, hateful woman. That only grew worse until I decided to do my marriage God’s way. And you know what, it changed. I am happy now. We have a happy, healthy marriage and home. My husband has NEVER abused me or our children. And I am DISGUSTED that you people would make such false accusations without even attempting to find more to the situation.
My own words have been on multiple websites and no one is willing to read them. Instead they attack my husband. Your own hatred is showing.
You are acting as cowards because despite NO ONE ever trying to contact me, I privately tried to contact your site owner, and shockingly, my e-mail has been left unresponded to. While I have no desire to actually meet any of you because I trust NO ONE because of the disgusting behavior by others online who have read every single one of my personal blog posts (somewhere around 1800), read 40-50,000 posts on message boards that have been pulled and hidden for 2+ years as the companies dissolved and hacked my accounts. And then these people threaten to physically harm my family and I, as well as threaten us in multiple ways, despite THEM being the ones who are acting unethically. So while I don’t want to meet up with anyone, I have offered to meet the owner of the site, but in the bullying and cowardly fashion that this entire thread has been made, she has not responded.
SO, BEFORE YOU ALL WANT TO RUN YOUR MOUTHS, WHY DON”T YOU ACTUALLY CONTACT ME TO SEE IF THERE COULD BE ANYTHING TO ANYTHING? OR SHUT UP!!!! But you won’t do either because your own hatred betrays any honesty that may exist. Many of the people who have jumped on this bandwagon (hello Free Jingers!) have had my personal information including phone numbers. Yet, in their *honest* concern, they never once called me. Excuse me while I roll my eyes at the honest concern.
Unless anyone wants to actually man up and e-mail me [JA removed e-mail address], then please leave the personal attacks out, okay? Robert doesn’t have access to my e-mail or computer. Ironically, despite the accusations, I am the one who has complete control of the technology in our house. I am the one who controls all the passwords and he knows only what I have shared with him. So, please lets not use that as a petty excuse to be a coward and not try to contact me.
I WILL NOT RESPOND TO COMMENTS HERE. We have a year under our belt of dealing with people of your beliefs and you don’t play fair. IF YOU WANT TO REPLY TO MY COMMENT – THEN E-MAIL ME. I WILL NOT RESPOND TO ANY POSTS HERE. PERIOD. I WILL NOT.
Just because our ideology doesn’t line up with yours does not give you the right to speak such disgusting filth! Even more so if you are claiming Christ!
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missdaisyflower,
This is just one of many reasons why I say that Robert is speaking out of both sides of his mouth.
It’s all about him, getting what he wants, and yes, he might as well just masturbate, because his beliefs are about HIS BODY getting serviced, not HER body, for he said “How can a person abuse themselves?” In essence, he is discussing the M word. Oh, I already spelled out the M word…Ha!
With, or without his wife, it’s all about his needs at 100%, not his wife’s needs at 100%.
If men give a wife 80%, then maybe it’s time for that little blue pill.
Ed
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Part 4.
There was actually a very similar editorial written by a woman that was published in The Christian Post a couple of weeks ago, similar to some of the things Robert was saying.
This Christian woman author spent much of her editorial victim-blaming female rape victims by claiming if a woman agreed to consensual sex with a man or boyfriend one time (even if it was 5 or 16 years ago), that the same man was entitled to sex from her any time after that – even against her will, and if the woman said that was “rape,” she was being dishonest.
I don’t think I’m putting words in that author’s mouth, those were the logical conclusions of what the woman was saying, and she point blank explained that in her view, that once a woman “performs” for a man, any time after that, the guy is entitled to her body, and for that woman or culture to say that it’s “rape” is wrong, even if the woman says she didn’t want it.
Again, this was a CHRISTIAN author on a well known CHRISTIAN news site saying these things. I have no idea why that publication – a “Christian” one – would permit such an incredibly irresponsible editorial to stand, but last time I checked (about two days ago), that editorial was still up.
To a point, I think I kind of understand Robert’s point (not that I agree).
I assume he is similar to the men I used to see when I lurked at Christian forums, including the ones in the “Marriage Problems” forums. I used to visit those, even though I have never married.
In all my years of hanging out in Christian forums, I kept seeing married men make the same complaints over and over. One fairly common complaint from married men were wives who did not want to have sex, or not as often as the man wanted to.
I think that these sexually frustrated married Christian men want to boss, command, or guilt trip their wife into having sex, so they go to these Christian forums or blogs to ask other men for Bible verses they can use to cram down the wife’s throat, to shame her or order her into having sex more.
I think that’s where they get these weird or bogus quasi biblical justifications (really, Bible verses twisted) to say there is no such thing as marital rape and that a wife always “owes” her spouse sex whenever and however he wants it.
There are a lot of married women out there, both Christian and Non Christian, who are also sexually frustrated: they want to have sex, but their husband wants no sex at all, or not as much as the wife does.
Unfortunately, due to social conditioning in the United States, people assume that only men are sexual or visually stimulated (Christians wrongly assume this is how God designed men to be, and that God designed women to only want “emotional intimacy”)(*)
Hence, it’s common for Christians to assume women don’t want or enjoy sex (or that women are not turned on by seeing buff, chiseled male bodies and faces), so I never see preachers or Christian lay persons advising sex-starved wives what to do if their husband won’t “put out.”
* -When Women Wanted Sex Much More Than Men And how the stereotype flipped. – (on Alert Net site)
The Alert Net site article, IIRC, discusses Christian views of sex from the past, including 18th or 19th century America, where Christians assumed that Christian women were sex beasts with insatiable appetites, while men were the sexually self controlled ones who would prefer reading poetry or the Bible to having sex. See how the stereotypes have changed in the last couple hundred years?
If the Puritans and those guys had Facebook, Forums, and Blogs back in 1745, you might see Christian men complaining from that era, “My wife is always bothering me for sex. How do I get her to leave me alone about this?”
And you might see the married women saying, “How do I get Richard to please me in the bedroom more often? He’d prefer to look at his stamp collection than me in a nightie.”
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I don’t get the obsession with sex. I used to think it was just a Boomer thing, but some of these sex-obsessed “pastors” are much younger than that. Sex is great and all, but it is not the center of things. I read over on the Bayly Blog a while back the statement that sex was the foundation of our humanity, or something like that. My response was that the Imago Dei was what makes us human. Sex is great and all, but if the spouse is disinclined, take a cold shower or run or something. That is the advice my old dad gave me.
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Julie Anne, The behavior is almost textbook on how to break a persons spirit, I am not so sure she even leaves post on the scrapbooking forum anymore, the sad part is there is not one thing anyone can do about the situation,, if she is there willingly and I am sure she is. I guess the best we can do is hope that nothing ever happens.
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Missdaisy: Thanks for the historical perspective. It often is missed by these types. Interesting how the stereotypes have changed.
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Hester said,
Yes, I believe that is right.
I wonder, if the story is reversed, if these Christian husbands have the flu, have 105 degree temperatures, are nauseated and puking their guts up all week long, how would they feel if their wife pressured them for sex at those times?
Or, how about if the wife insisted on having sex right before the fourth quarter of the Super Bowl, or whatever the guy’s favorite show is?
I have a feeling these men would drop the “marriage equates to entitlement of sex whenever, however” view pronto.
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Amanda, what you do in the bedroom is no one’s business, and the marriage bed is not defiled.
BUT, to peddle your stuff off as the way that Robert and other blog sites state is biblical marriage using 1 Cor 7 as your rule of thumb, THAT IS VILE, Amanda.
What you are into is nothing more that VOLUNTARY bondage in a submission sort of way. If that is the kink that you are into, then go for it. But don’t peddle it off as some sort of God directed, mandated, command, etc., that this is God’s plan for a woman.
It’s nonsense. It goes against the NORMAL conscience. If you are a sex freak, then so be it. Maybe you ought to put your name on craigs list or something for like minded sex freaks.
Ed
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Keith Blankenship said,
Mark Driscoll is 40-something. He and I are pretty close in age (and we are Gen X, not Boomers), but he’s obsessed with sex.
I know I talk about sex on blogs, but I’m not interested in sex per se, but rather in how Christians talk about it, and how their views on it lead to all sorts of problems.
You said, “I read over on the Bayly Blog a while back the statement that sex was the foundation of our humanity”
So, what of 30, 40 year old virgins? We are very real. If they’re saying you have to be having sex to be truly human, that leaves out adult, Christian singles who are going by the Bible’s teaching to refrain from sex (until marriage).
I’d also add though, that one doesn’t have to have sex to be sexual. That’s another common Christian (and Non Christian misunderstanding). Celibates are not asexual or lacking sexuality.
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chapmaned24 said,
I agree. And that is certainly another way of looking at it…
But I figure if his wife is not in the mood, for whatever reason, instead of shaming her or bullying her into sex, he can just as easily go off to a bedroom alone with a box of tissues and take care of things himself.
That way, his itch gets scratched, and the wife is not harassed or pressured into doing something she does not want to do. It’s not like ol’ Rob needs his wife or her body to achieve the same, end results.
As a single woman who’d like to be married and having sex, I cannot muster up sympathy for the Roberts of the world who complain they’re not getting sex from their spouse as often as they’d prefer. I am playing the world’s tiniest violin for people like this (including a few family members of mine who complain about this).
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Amanda, I am having a hard time understanding your outrage. Why would anyone need to contact you privately when they are simply going by your husbands VERY PUBLIC writing. Is he not able to communicate his beliefs effectively?
As per his views, why would anyone ascertain his wife is capable of independent thought that differs from his?
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Amanda,
I did not respond to the e-mail because it had a strange name (a man’s name, not Robert’s) connected with it and was not even the e-mail address that Robert had left, and the one you have left above. I deal with victims of abuse and I’m not about to e-mail a strange e-mail account and potentially put a victim in harm’s way by my e-mail (if the account is overseen by an abuser). That’s just the way I roll.
While you say we’ve got everything wrong here about your story (which is interesting, because the conversations are based on actual quotes from you and Robert), you also have assumed much about my blog.
We highlight abuse in the church/Christianity here. There is not one particular denomination or doctrine represented/endorsed here – we’re a mixed bag from different backgrounds, many whom have experienced an abusive experience in church/Christian organization. I am not a teacher. Regarding your story, I found an excerpt regarding marital rape which appalled me and Kathi wrote the post. If your husband’s words are creating such a response among Believers, then perhaps you are missing something.
Regarding people wanting to harm you or making threats – I’m not sure what that is all about. It definitely is not coming from my readers or me. I find that behavior horrible and I’m sorry you have had to deal with that. It is certainly not Christ-like. We care about you, Amanda. We are concerned that you are isolated, that you may not have the support you need to see things clearly. You may not want to read these words, but I will say them: I do care about you and your family. I am concerned about your well-being based on your public words and that of your husband. If one day you decide that you can’t take it anymore and need help, please send me an e-mail. I will try to get you help.
Note to SSB readers: I would encourage my readers to NOT contact Amanda at the address she provided. What was shared publicly should be able to be discussed publicly. We do not know if Robert is behind this UserID. We know nothing. But what we do know that his pattern of entitlement over his wife is not godly or Biblical and I believe crosses the lines into abuse.
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Amanda: I have read a little bit of the Free Jinjer site. The people here are not like some of the folks there.
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Since you are keeping files on all of us, (you say),, please show us where you were actually threatened with bodily harm, I suspect paranoia , the couple of times I emailed you you did not answer my question but instead told me that you would not email me anymore and that you were CCing my emails to Robert,
I asked why were T;s responses to the post about sex were deleted as he used scripture to back up his argument but Robert did not, Then I was told T did not even exist, that he or she had to be one of those crazy people over at that (other) forum . I have one suggestion,, keep your blog private and dont put stuff out there that may come back to bite you,
When people thump there chest and proclaim there way is the best way,, do not expect everyone else to go along with you.
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hiswife said,
Then what are you responding to?
How can you be angry if you’re not reading the comments?
I’ve gone out of my way to not be unnecessarily crude or disgusting. I’ve tried to be tactful in how I discuss the sexuality portions of my posts.
How do we know you are really Robert’s wife? This could be Robert pretending to be his wife. He sounds very controlling.
hiswife said,
The views on this site are not a monolith.
Some of us disagree with each other on some topics.
We have Christians who post here, some are Protestant, some are Reformed, some reject Reformed doctrine, some are atheist, some are agnostic, some are Arminian. I am mix of Christian and agnostic myself.
There is not really one single teaching of the church on this blog since so many of us come from different backgrounds and denominations.
I do find it interesting in spite of all our differences, most of us have reached the same conclusions about your husband and his views on sex and marriage.
You said,
Your husband was allowed to post here and voluntarily left. Now you are posting here. So you are being permitted by the blog host to air your views.
hiswife said,
Why don’t you try reading our posts and interacting with what we’ve said here? I would not be interested in chatting, on the phone or via e mail, with someone who will not even read my posts on a blog.
You said,
I’m an introvert and don’t feel comfortable calling people out of the blue who I don’t know, or who I only know from the internet.
I read posts by Robert, your husband, on here, on this very blog. I have not clicked on and read the other blogs that were mentioned in the original post, and you seem very concerned that some of us are forming opinions about you based only on a Free Jinger forum or whatever.
hiswife said,
I’m not necessarily “claiming Christ.”
As I said, I’m a mix of Christian and Agnostic presently and have been in a crisis of faith the last few years. I’m still trying to decide if the Bible and Christianity is a bunch of bunk or not.
But I was a conservative Christian since youth and am quite familiar with the Bible and Christian doctrine.
You mentioned “Free Jingers” in your post several times. I don’t really understand who or what they are.
I think I visited some site of theirs about a month ago and skimmed it over, but I could not make heads or tails of who they are or what they stand for, other than, they don’t seem to like “Quivering” families. Other than that, I am not familiar with them and don’t know why you or your spouse keep mentioning them on this blog.
You seem like a very angry person, and I get the feeling it’s not just because of any of us here on this blog, it feels to me that it runs deeper than that.
You said,
I am sorry you were harassed by other people, but nobody from this blog was involved in that – I sure as heck was not. I didn’t even know about you until I saw this post on this blog.
I kind of feel sorry for you and worry about you.
You said,
It’s not just about you that’s under consideration here.
I was using this blog post as a spring board to discuss general attitudes and trends in Christianity that I’ve seen from other Christians the last several years.
You’ll notice I also mentioned preacher Mark Driscoll and other Christian men I’ve seen on other forums, in the context of their teachings about marriage and sex.
If I were to contact you via email, I’d simply copy and posts the posts I’ve already left on this blog, the ones you say you refuse to read here. I don’t understand why you insist on e-mail contact.
You said,
Is this comment aimed at the owner of the blog, or everyone here? How do you know that I do not “play fair.” How do you know what my beliefs are, unless I tell you?
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Note to readers: I have removed Amanda’s e-mail address from her comment and Robert’s earlier comment. Bill/Charlie’s comment on Robert keeping files reminded me that I, too, had read the same thing from Robert. He keeps files on people who e-mail them. I don’t want any of you to feel threatened by this man.
It’s interesting how Robert and Amanda are trying to do damage control and keep conversation quiet when people are challenging them on their own words. No, Robert and Amanda, if you post things publicly, they are up for public discussion.
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BINGO!!!
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Oh nuts, I messed up the formatting on my post above, I left off an end slash mark in one of the blockquote tags. 😦 [JA thinks she found it and fixed it. ~ja]
Anyway, NJ or someone wrote,
That’s how I was raised to believe that marriage works, or how all women in general must behave towards everyone.
I had to un-learn it – believing in that way created clinical depression for me and made all sorts of other problems.
Teaching people to go along 100% with whatever other people want (or a person feeling pressured to do so) is called codependency, and is also known as “people pleasing.”
Codependency is condemned in the Bible. God does not want married women (or any woman, or any man) to be codependent.
One of many negative results of teaching women that codependency is God’s design for them (ie, that the man is the absolute ruler and head in a marriage) is that they make their husband into an idol – the husband inadvertently becomes supreme, even above God. God condemns idolatry in the Bible.
Christian women who are caught up in this and think it is biblical, please read copies of the books
“Boundaries” by Christian authors Cloud and Townsend and
“No More Christian Nice Girl” by Christian authors Paul Coughlin and Jennifer D. Degler PhD.
You can read portions (entire chapters) of “No More Christian Nice Girl” for free on Coughlin’s blog _here_ (on Crosswalk’s site)
Those books are just for starters. There are many other good, secular books on the topic as well, just look for the terms “People Pleasing” or “Codependency” on book sites.
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Amanda,
I have no intention of contacting someone via email given in a blog post without any knowledge of who they are. You have said, as a repeat of what Robert has said, that you are angry with us and refuse to read the posts. Why are you angry if you haven’t read the posts? Do you trust all that your husband says and draw conclusions from that? Are you allowed to think for yourself?
Being a survivor of domestic abuse I would challenge you to get a life outside of your husband. Something for yourself that he doesn’t control. Leave the house, go out with friends. See how that works. From all that I have read, you are in the fog and may not even realize that abuse is taking place in your home. I am concerned for your safety.
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Thanks for those whose explained MRA. Now what is Vox, something another? And, Free Jinjer?
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Daisy,
While reading your posts and discussion about the “M” word, it brought back a conversation from a few years ago. A very angry man’s words who’s wife had MS, sleep apnea and had a debilitating stroke. He believed that he should be getting something out of being her caregiver (entitlement again) and was taking sex at will. She was taken out of his care and put in a nursing home. This same man was found in her room taking his liberties. Apparently, having sex with a woman who knew nothing of what was happening was more moral in his mind than the “M” word.
I am not a supporter of self gratification of this nature, but certainly would have preferred it over him using his wife’s body the way he did.
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I got the quote for the 80% orgasm nonsense. It’s part of a long article on sex, but this is the excerpt I was referring to earlier:
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Here’s more:
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Here’s the Free Jinger link: http://www.freejinger.org/
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^^Holy Cannoli!
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Angie
There is a Vox news site.
But I think some of the folks above are referring to a blog by the name of Vox Popoli. He has a blog on Blog Spot by that name.
He does a decent job, IMO, of debating atheists but seems like a sexist person – and I believe he claims to be a Christian. Sexism is incompatible with Christianity, so it’s beyond me how any man claiming to be a Christ follower can adhere to certain beliefs about the genders.
Vox Popoli regularly uses all the secular MRA (men’s rights) terminology when discussing men, women, dating marriage, and related topics.
I only briefly visited the Free Jinger forum a month or so ago. The only thing I could make out is that they detest Quivering Christian families, and there are some angry ex-Christians. left wing secular feminists, or atheists who mouth off quite rudely against Christians or conservatives there. I’m not sure if any practicing Christians post there or not.
Beyond that, I had a hard time understanding what their forum or site was all about.
From the “Free Jinger About Us” page,
FWIW, I do not like or agree with militant atheists who hate Christians.
The militant exChristians and atheists tend to lump in any and all Christians, denominations, churches, and theological views as being “fundamentalist.” They make no distinctions.
They sit there and bash Christianity but are incredibly ignorant of what it is they are bashing. Anything they disagree with – for example, being pro-life, voting Republican, taking the Bible literally – they will lump any and all topics they disagree with as being “fundamentalist.”
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@ Brenda R JANUARY 11, 2015 @ 3:14 PM
That is a very, very disturbing story. It’s hard to fathom how sometimes some people can be so incredibly selfish.
Yikes, I messed up my blockquote tag again (sorry Julie Anne. Thank you for fixing it last time!)
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Since Julie Anne is intellectually dishonest and dishonest completely- always pulling things out of context of the whole here is the complete post- every single word.
Coming off the post from the other day and a couple more emails today I figure it’s time for a sex advice for men post. It is one of the most common questions I get…”Our sex life sucks, how do I fix it?” So here is a bullet point post that is by no means all inclusive.
1. Get rid of any sexual immorality in your life. No more porn. Yes it will be hard, especially until she comes around, but deal with it. She’s going to have some dealing with of her own, why do you feel justified to ask her to do it if you aren’t willing? Be godly.
2. Never listen to your wife, or women, about sex. First, women don’t know what they want. What they say they want and what they do are opposites. Trust me, it’s not the sensitive, best friends guys who are getting laid. Anybody that believes that has never spent an hour in a bar, a college campus or a church. If you follow your wife’s lead there is no bigger turn off for a woman. Women are attracted to men. Be a man. Be strong. Be independent. Be a little dangerous. Above all be dominant…which is the thing women are attracted to most.
3. Listen to your wife about sex. I know this seems to be the exact opposite of what I just said, but it is not. Once you are a man and leading, it helps to be her best friend and to be sensitive. Be safe. Be caring.
4. The biggest aphrodisiac for women is being wanted by a man they want/desire. It is far more important to be the object of her desire than any technique you will learn.
5. Study your wife. Get her off most of the time she desires. Some women will want to come every time. Comply 80% of the time. You might think that is selfish, and if you only take a short term view you might be correct. But long term for attraction and for you to remain dominate (remember the single most attractive thing to a woman) in her eyes you have to leave her longing and knowing who is in charge (in charge in a loving way) once in awhile. Keeping her attracted to you long term is not selfish. Some women will want to orgasm only once in awhile. For some the orgasm is just not important, at least not every time. Understand that up to 75% of women will never orgasm from PIV sex alone. So learn some technique.
**Concerning the 80% I meant exactly what I said. Walk in the house,tell her those jeans are driving you crazy on her, slap her on rear lightly & say, “Babe, let’s get it on. I’ve got five minutes.” Have your way with her, kiss her on lips, tell her you love her like crazy and go back to work. Remember it’s not the norm. It’s the small minority of the time.**
6. Be a godly, loving husband. One that cares about his wife. One who serves his wife, cherishes her and cares for her. Honestly, your relationship outside of the bedroom makes a huge difference. The manosphere tells you that you have to be a jerk. It’s not true. But you do have to be a man. Someone she looks up to. You are far better off being dominate, but loving and caring. And pray for your wife, daily. Praise her for the things she does well and thank her for what she does for you. Try to overlook small offenses. Assume the best. Communicate. Help her.
7. If met with refusal, be persistent but not whiny or needy- those are not dominate traits. Figure out in a non sexual moral way to get rid of some energy and frustration. And be persistent. No long term is not an acceptable answer and make it very clear. Get her to the doctor if necessary. Understand that more than half of American women are on medications, from anti-depressants to hormonal birth control that absolutely tank their libido. No long term is not acceptable. Sexual refusal is a sin. Run her to doctor appointments, and make it uncomfortable enough that she has no way but to deal with the issue.
8. If she has a problem, help her to heal. There are women that have been sexually abused or raped. There are women that have physical issues. Work with her, with patience and kindness. Hold her and her needs above yourself. But she has does have to work towards the goal of healing and do her part.
9. Do not say no yourself. Don’t pay her back for the months, years or decades of hurt & loneliness she caused you. I know this is easier said than done, but as our moms said & were right about- two wrongs don’t make a right. Neither is it Christlike behavior.
10. Understand that your wife will probably never be you. The majority of women are not as adventurous or have as high of libido as men. It is okay to ask her to come your way- even a whole lot of the way. But, and especially if you are a former porn user, most women are not porn stars. Most are not into things like anal sex. And that is okay…probably even good. Be happy with a wife that is trying to please you and enjoy the marriage bed with you. Don’t go crazy. Be content. And don’t defile or bring sexual immorality to your wife. Remember part of your job as a christian husband is to present her to Christ washed- so stay within scriptural & biblical lines.
Lastly, love your wife. Enjoy her. Worship and obey God next to her. Raise godly, healthy kids with her. Get up each day and keep your promises. Never utter the word divorce and promise you’ll be sitting on the porch next to her when you are both old and grey. Stick through the tough times and hold tight. Never stop protecting her and if in doubt, choose love.
Oh and it never hurts, at least often, to stay showered, keep your nails trimmed and brush your teeth!
For this post please feel free to comment anonymously. And it is okay to make up an email address. We are discussing the sacred. It has to be discussed, but it should be treated sacredly. As always, be respectful to your fellow human.
…each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband. 3 The husband must [a]fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and [b]come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
1 Corinthians 7:2-5
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Julie Anne,
January 11, 2015 @ 3:34 PM This comes from a truly warped mind. If I were still married and the H pulled this on me, it certainly would not wanting me longing for more or feel he was in charge. I may have left him a whole lot sooner, which could have been a blessing. Now why would a woman not want to orgasm every time, unless perhaps she never got that far before and didn’t know what was missing.
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Thanks, Robert! Now we have it from the horse’s mouth. I didn’t feel I needed to post the whole thing, but only excerpts that I found troubling. But now that the whole thing is posted, I’m sure my readers will be able to find even more to chew on.
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What makes Robert very dangerous is he puts himself out there like a godly man with spiritual knowledge. Gotta love how he throws in Bible verses amidst his MRA ideologies and calls it Biblical.
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Ok. The next part was just down right insulting. “Women don’t know what they want.”?????? That is just down right insulting. He seems to think the bad boy macho thing is what women want. He is talking about the bar, college campus scene. The women I know are looking for real men. Followers of Christ, gentle and caring. Not the manipulators and control freaks that is being spoken of in this quote.
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The FJ site is a mixed bag of people from various backgrounds. There are definitely Christians posting there. They are fiesty, snarky, and a lot of the time, they are right on the $$. It was interesting following some of their posts on Doug Phillips when I was hearing things directly from the inner circle. They were making some pretty good speculations that turned out to be true. They are excellent sleuths. They despise what we despise: narcissists, abusers, they follow names in the homeschool fundy culture. If you don’t like colorful language, I’d suggest bypassing the site 🙂
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So, Robert, why have you evaded my questions to you here: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/01/08/marital-rape-is-it-even-a-possibility-in-christian-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-224525
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@Robert 3:48pm quote:
I repeat, “Holy Cannoli!”
Robert, there is nothing in the larger excerpt you provided that minimizes the repugnance of the horrid, boorish advice tendered in the smaller excerpt.
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@ amanhiswife JANUARY 11, 2015 @ 3:48 PM
Advice Fail. None of your pick up tactics would work on me or appeal to me.
About the only decent point I saw was the anti-porn position under #1.
Number 3 sounds okay, but the rest of your teachings and attitudes contradict point 3.
You do not know what all or most women want. You assume you know, and at that, based on the “Nice Guy” fallacy, which I will explain in a moment.
Thank you, amanhiswife, for re-affirming my decision to no longer consider Christian men only for dating or marriage.
I would be better off dating Non-Christian men who would treat me with respect, not as a prize to be won or as an animal to be controlled or dominated.
You said, “First, women don’t know what they want. ”
Oh yes, but we do.
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amanhiswife,
Your lengthy version of the quote that Julie Anne listed earlier did NOT make things better. You are a sick individual. If a man ever told me they had 5 minutes, let’s do it, I’d tell him to come back when he had more time. You are a sorry excuse for a man and you think you should be advising other men???? What qualifies you for that?
We have already determined that a woman not having as high a libido as a man is a myth. Libido is not gender specific. It is individual specific. This myth is something told to girls and women to keep them in their place as you would have them. Perhaps as godly women we choose not to pick men up in bars, that does not mean that we do not have a desire for sex.
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“Trust me, it’s not the sensitive, best friends guys who are getting laid. Anybody that believes that has never spent an hour in a bar, a college campus or a church.”
Hahahahahahahahaha!
My husband is my best friend, which is a REALLY, really good thing. There are going to be stages in life when neither of you are “in the mood.” (That’s all I’m going to say. I don’t kiss and tell.) Because we are friends, our relationship weathers this just fine.
Guys, please don’t let Robert’s “advice” give you a complex.
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Re: Nice Guys
They complain about not getting dates, sex, girlfriends, and they complain about being “Friend Zoned”
_The Problem with “Nice Guys”_
(that link is to a page on Dr. Nerd Love’s site – it may or may not contain coarse language, I cannot remember)
amanhiswife said,,
This is a variation of the ‘Nice Guy’ argument. It is very, very prevalent among MRAs and PUAs (Pick Up Artists) and everyday, romantically frustrated men. I’ve seen these attitudes reflected in blogs by and for Christian men.
Nice Guys are usually painfully shy, socially awkward (usually single, but can be married), and/or inexperienced men who want a girlfriend or sex and assume the way to get either one is to “be nice” to women.
Remember that Elliot Rodger kid from a few months ago who hopped in a car and went about town shooting and killing people? Yeah. He was a frustrated male virgin who felt entitled to female company and sex.
Elliot was such a “Nice Guy” he could not understand why women didn’t want to date him. He actually said that in some of the You Tube videos he posted before he went on his killing spree.
These types of men- Nice Guys- think women are mind readers, and women can just tell if a man wants them or not. No men, we women are NOT mind readers. If you want to date a woman or want sex with her, you have to tell her so, not drop hints.
Or, Nice Guys assume a woman should just magically figure out that the reason a man is being nice to her in the first place is because he really wants a romantic relationship, and/or, they think Being Nice entitles them to some free lovin’.
Nice Guys assume that if they do nice gestures for a woman, like pick up her dry cleaning or listen to her cry and gripe about her ex five hours a day, etc, the woman will fall in love and give them sex as a result of gratitude, or she will just fall in love from this type of attention.
When this does not happen, and the woman dates some jerk who beats her up instead, these men assume (wrongly),
“Women enjoy being bullied, dominated, controlled, and abused. Women prefer abusers and tough, controlling, in-charge men to Nice Guys. I need to start being mean, selfish, dominating, tough, and a jerk to women to get what I want.”
Women do not want to be dominated and controlled. Women do not want to date, sleep with, or marry jerks, dominating men, or abusers.
(The only quasi exception are codependent women or insecure women who were possibly abused as kids, who are looking to a husband to be their daddy figure or protector.
I think this is part of why God said in Genesis that ‘the woman will look to her husband and the husband will rule over her.’ Emotionally healthy and stable women do NOT want to be controlled and conquered by a husband or by anyone)
The reason women date abusive or jerk men is because such men are not socially awkward ‘fraidy cats. Such men will actually ask a woman, “Can I take you out to dinner some time?”
Jerky, abusive men have self-confidence and are not afraid of rejection. Therefore, the jerks and abusers will ask many women out on dates.
“Nice Guys,” by contrast, are afraid of asking women out. – that is why they never get dates, sex, or girlfriends.
As has been said on other blogs, Nice Guys are
1. Not nice (they are manipulative) and
2. They think women are like vending machines: put in enough “nice” and the woman will dispense sex (or dates, love, marriage)
Where-as a “Nice Guy” is not direct about his feelings and intentions, but will keep “being nice” in the hopes that the woman will just fall in love with him for being so considerate.
amanhiswife is essentially using PUA teachings and tactics and adding a Christian veneer to them. Meanwhile, the God of the Bible is barfing all over the place that Christian men are passing this stuff off as being Godly when it is no such thing.
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You & your own members are advocating you control the number of orgasms men have? What is different than my method? In fact your own members state that a woman should be having 5 times the orgasms her husband has- yet nobody calls her sexist? Why is that? You agree that in marriage the only sex a person should have is with their spouse- and yet you want women to control of sex after marriage.
I’m at 80% for women (when the average is 63%), your group is at 500% and yet I’m the abusive one? You guys are nut jobs- first rate nut jobs who have been raised in such a feminist society you cannot even see you have been given over to your depraved minds. Let alone think logically.
The only difference between you and us, is that we believe the husband is the head of the marriage and you believe the wife is the head of the marriage- although you will not come out and admit it. It is the bottom line. Thing is- someone is always in control. If someone says yes and someone says no- the no is in control. Anytime you have two people interacting someone is in control.
Our position,and it is completely biblical- and was the position of almost every single christian church until the last 50 years- was that the husband is the head, but that he should be loving and sacrificial in his headship.
Furthermore, my position on a husband not forcing his wife to have sex is very clear. Don’t do it- EVER. I’ve even explained what he should do when she says no long term. I’ve explained what he should do if she is sick, tired, etc. And absolutely nowhere have said force her and yet you call me a rapist and allow your members to call me a pedophile. You obviously are a woman and have no idea what those kind of words do to a man. You are reckless.
I have nothing more to say to you. You call yourself “pretty fair” and yet you call me a plagiarist for using two words out of 100 that were the same- words Jesus Christ used to describe marriage- in a position the church has held for 1950 years. You are the anomaly and minority throughout church history- by a very wide margin.
You are a liar and a christo feminist- and people of your ilk are the reason why the church is dying.
You automatically assume housewives have harder jobs- well I have dozens of women that would disagree with you.
As far as my wife- she is neither isolated or in need of friends. She has many. She is in town often and interacts with dozens of women, both from our church and out of church.
It amazes me how people on the internet can be so arrogant to think they can know what really goes on. Somehow we interact with dozens of family members, hundreds of people each year…and yet we are regarded as a loving, healthy couple and family. But you are worried…depraved minds is what you have…
The problem with your christo-feminists is you think women are inherently good. In a post where “Boundaries” is upheld as a go to book- the minute a man puts “boundaries” in a relationship it is abuse. You simply do not believe a woman should have a boundary applied to her- it only goes one way in your book.
And your favorite tactic is to shame a man into submission- not going to happen here. My wife and I couldn’t be happier.
I was warned by a reader here when this post first went up how big of poison hole this blog was- you have confirmed it many times over. I will repeat this one last time for anyone reading here- my positions on every single thing we discussed were the churches position & what was considered the biblical position to have for over 1950 years. In fact, everywhere except the western world where feminism has taken over, they still are christianity’s position (you know where the church is growing and not dying). So I will ask you- are you confident that you are reading the Bible correctly- are those billions of good christian men and women that came before you wrong? Or are you wrong?
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“We have already determined that a woman not having as high a libido as a man is a myth. Libido is not gender specific.”
You may have come to that conclusion but the bible and every medical study has the exact opposite of your determination- by wide, wide margins. That you even think that is crazy. That vast majority of men have a higher, much higher sex drive then their wife. Not all- but most. Google will quickly confirm this.
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“Thing is- someone is always in control. If someone says yes and someone says no- the no is in control. Anytime you have two people interacting someone is in control.”
There lies your problem right there. It’s all in that warped perspective of dominance. You really can’t wrap your head around the idea that a relationship can be based on love and not control.
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Hey Julie, Roberts post with Amanda’s email address went through twice. You might want to edit the second one because the email address is still public.
JA note: Got it! thanks!
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amanhiswife said,
Nobody here said that or claimed it, not that I recall.
You are attributing a lot of views to the people on this blog that they do not hold. That is called a Straw Man Argument.
amanhiswife said,
I think that was one male member of the blog who said that.
I am not sure I necessarily agree with that view – the person who stated that can defend or explain further.
amanhiswife said,
I’m a right wing, social conservative and disagree with secular feminists about 99% of the time.
Don’t attribute views to me that I do not hold.
amanhiswife said,
Nobody here believes that the wife is the head of the marriage.
Most of us here believe that marriages should be mutual – neither the man or the woman is “the head.”
“The head” as is taught by gender complementarians is taught to mean that one spouse is in authority over the other, which runs contrary to the teachings of Jesus, who said that his followers are not to lord authority over one another.
You might want to read material such as,
_Co-Leadership In Marriage: What About Headship?_
amanhiswife said,
But it’s not biblical. You just assume your interpretation is the only correct one.
amanhiswife said,
Amount of time majority of Christians have believed in a particular doctrine is not entirely relevant.
White, American Christians thought that holding black people as slaves was “biblical” and moral for over 50 years ~ now they know better.
amanhiswife said,
And if you force your wife to have sex, that is sometimes referred to as “marital rape,” and some men do in fact rape their wives.
Just because you claim you do not do so does not mean that other married men do not and have not.
amanhiswife said,
I’m basing my views on your words here alone, and based on what other, similar men have said on other blogs and forums.
amanhiswife said,
Your wife gets to have and set boundaries, too, Robert. You don’t seem to understand or appreciate that.
“Boundaries” was a decent book – your wife should read that.
She probably needs to read other books about codependency and perhaps books about spousal abuse, such as, Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Lundy Bancroft, and quite possibly books about verbal and emotional abuse.
There are also blogs out there that have material she can read for free.
I’m not a “christo feminist.”
amanhiswife said,
Again, length of time X% of Christians have believed something is not entirely relevant.
Christians can and are wrong things – churches today (as this blog discusses) cover up child sex abuse, for one. Instead of calling the police to confront child abusers, most churches ostracize the victims and side with the abusers.
amanhiswife said,
I used to be a gender complementarian and used to believe some of the things you are espousing. From reading the Bible alone (not feminist materials), I realized that gender complementarianism is wrong.
So, when’s the last time you’ve asked yourself if you are wrong?
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Its funny…I responded to his sex article by telling him roughly how many O’s I get in an average year and how it definitely gets me coming back for more (let’s just say its 100%). If my husband only deemed me eligible to have an O 80% of the time, guess who’d be sleeping alone?
There are other issues in my marriage, but that isn’t one of them. I find his ideas on women disgusting.
Due to a certain issue in my marriage, my husband violated a statement I made. He thought he could make an exception when I did not give any exceptions. He has been told that he will not violate that boundary as to do so indicates a total lack of respect towards me and towards our marriage. Yes, I am demanding that he treat me a certain way (that he has not done in our marriage). I have stated that he will not do this again and until he can prove to me by word and deed that he will not do this again, frankly he is not permitted in my home (we are currently separated due to said issue).
Robert would have you believe that I am some sort of man-hating feminist. That is not true. I am taking the steps I need to take to stop certain destructive behaviors in my husband towards me. Number 1 is to treat me in the way that he promised the day we got married “love, honor and cherish”. He has done none of these things and until he can, he will not live with me.
IF my husband continued acting this way (a lot like Robert), the marriage would be over. Completely over. Any baloney over what he can or cannot do to me in divorce court would immediately be proven a lie.
My husband’s behaviors were influenced by men’s groups at church. All I can say is I feel sorry for the other wives in these groups who have not finally seen the light.
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“we are regarded as a loving, healthy couple and family.”
Oh, sure. Isn’t it your wife posting here: http://www.clubcreatingkeepsakes.com/forums/t/5225.aspx?PageIndex=2
that says, “Okay – I’m a little frustrated with him today. Yesterday he came in the house and the kids had been whining for an hour straight so I ignored them. Then he got mad at me because I ignored them. He’s STILL mad 24 hours later. Yes, he is the king of holding a grudge.”
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amanhiswife,
Prove it. Where are the scriptures you are referring to? You have not once quoted one single scripture while the best of the best in scripture here have given you many. You can’t because they don’t exist. You cannot biblically prove your point. It is all a lie that man has created for his own selfishness and need to control.
You are totally wrong about boundaries being considered abuse when a man has an abusive wife. I know men who fit this description and live life with abusive wives. YOU ARE NOT ONE OF THEM. There is a difference between a boundary and putting your wife in the cabin until she submits to your way of thinking. There is a difference between a boundary and cutting her off sexually because she might enjoy it too much.
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amanhiswife said,
I already provided a link or two above with some of this information.
The Bible does not teach that men have bigger sex drives than women. Nor does it teach that God “wired men” to be “visually stimulated.” Nor does the Bible teach that women prefer “emotional intimacy” to sex.
Even if we could see studies that claim on average that men generally want sex more than women, it does not follow from this that “sex” is a man’s area or domain, or that woman are not interested in sex at all, or that husbands get to control when, if and how a couple has sex.
I’m not sure how many links we can put in per post before the post sits in moderation, so I will only try 2 or 3 links per post.
_Do men really have higher sex drives than women?_ (hosted on I09)
See, Robert, if you keep telling women they don’t like sex or don’t want it from the time they are girls, it’s called social conditioning and ends up being a self-fullfilling prophecy.
I posted this up thread once before:
_When Women Wanted Sex Much More Than Men – and how the stereotype flipped_ (this article is on Alert Net)
(continued in next post of mine)
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amanhiswife,
Again prove it. Where in the Bible does it say that a man has more of a libido than a woman. I want you to point out scripture where the Word ever says that. There are no medical books that say it either. I get emails on Women’s issues every day from WebMD. They would completely blow your theory right out of the water.
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Whoa… Julie Anne, I suspect this post is already one of the top ten for 2015. And we aren’t even halfway through January yet…
Where, oh, where to begin…
Brenda and Daisy are women, and they’ve already refuted this. Are you saying that they’re confused, or lying? Or do you think that they’re not “real” women?
Wrong, Robert. All too often this is what happens, but it doesn’t have to be this way. Jesus Himself showed us that. Love is not a zero-sum game. A zero-sum game cannot be loving. I can either love my wife, or dominate her. I can’t do both.
Why not? They were wrong about slavery for nearly as long as that.
*sigh* Citations, please.
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Re amanhiswifes post.
Continued:
Very eye opening article:
_Women and sex: the myth-buster_
_The case for abandoning the myth that “women aren’t visual.”_
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Re amanhiswifes post.
Continued:
Sometimes men, even Christian men, are disturbed by the stereotype that all men everywhere want sex all the time, such as this guy (at least I think he’s a Christian):
_I Am Not A Sex Fueled Robot_
_Turns Out Women Have Really, Really Strong Sex Drives: Can Men Handle It?_
_Why Penis Size Matters_
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There have been numerous studies on sexual arousal in both men and women. The findings are as such, that both men and women respond to visual stimuli; the degree of arousal however varies on a few factors, mood type / erotic situation being one of them. Long story short, sexual arousal is conditional, and women tend to have additional contributing factors, but that does not negate that they are also visually aroused just like their male counterparts. Nor does it suggest that they possess an innately reduced sexual drive from creation. They do not.
If anything, it is more accurate to say the libido of women is more complex and more likely to be influenced by social and environmental factors not that the libido is “lower”.
As for the declared biblical matter, I honestly have no idea how the bible fits into the human libido as a fact behind women being on the lower end. That’s a new one.
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Robert’s advice is bad and shockingly sinful. Need bleach for eyeballs
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Exactly, Dustin. Good to see you!
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My computer had to be re-booted. I lost internet connection for awhile.
There was one other comment by Robert (aka “amanhiswife”) (from JANUARY 11, 2015 @ 4:42 PM) I wanted to discuss.
In the midst of looking for the one comment, I saw these again,
Did someone here make that claim? It’s possible they did, but I don’t remember it.
My own position is that in a traditional marriage, where the guy works 9 to 5 and the woman stays at home and does housework, they both have things difficult, especially if there are children under the age of 18 at home.
But also as I’ve noted on older threads, in most relationships I’ve seen, the woman works while the man stays at home all day.
I have several aunts and a big sister who are the “bread winners” while the husband/ boyfriend stays at home all day.
In two cases, the husbands sit around in their underwear all day, either playing video games or watching football and they do not do any housework – the wives not only have to pay all the bills and work an outside job, but also have to do all domestic duties when they get home as well.
I also have women relatives and friends who have large sex drives and complain that their husband or boyfriend never wants to have sex.
I find this whole thing very odd.
Historically, in most cultures, women have been objectified and abused, and the men are in control (patriarchy). Everything in most cultures favors men, contrary to the MRAs.
I know that some of the far left secular feminists complain about men a lot, but really, it seems to me that men (secular and Christian) like to engage in this game far more often than most women do (especially Christian women) of “which gender has life more difficult.”
I am constantly seeing men on the internet complain that men have life and romance tougher than women. When I listen to women complain about relationships and jobs, it’s seldom framed in terms of “women have it tougher than men.”
I see Christian men (and Non Christian) both single and married expect women to cater to them and massage their male egos, to pat them on the head and tell them how great they are.
My ex fiance’ was like that, yet he was never willing to pat me on my head and tell me how great I was. I just do not see most men playing the encouraging role for women that they demand women play for them.
Where Robert / amanhiswife says,
I don’t know if Robert is abusive or not, but, based on books I’ve read on the topic, some abusive husbands do allow their wives to have friends and to leave the house and socialize.
While it is true that abusive husbands in general will isolate their wives, not all of them do that.
I just learned from the books I read about domestic violence that while there are general patterns that hold true for abusive men, the rage triggers they have can differ from abusive man to abusive man.
Robert / amanhiswife said,
Actually, some of your views about gender, sex, women, and marriage are more similar to those of Mormonism and radical Islam than they are to biblical Christianity.
I am still looking for another comment he made that I wanted to remark upon.
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Since Robert and Amanda seem to be clinging to some horrible exegesis, I’m moved to share some words from Walter Brueggemann, arguably one of the best living theologians: “Well, what we do is to pick and choose things out of the Bible that conform to our fears. It’s not a matter of obeying the Bible — it’s about obeying the gospel. The gospel is about God’s saving love that wants to restore all of humanity to full communion. To reach back to an ancient text that has now been corrected by the revelation of God in Jesus Christ is simply a bad maneuver and poor methodology and theologically irresponsible. Those texts are not the determinative texts.
The texts that are determinative are those that talk about the love of God that has been shown to us in Jesus. We can’t compromise that.”
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Oh my goodness, Robert. Posting your full version absolutely did not help you.
However, it has aroused a certain longing in me that wistfully recalls where you said you were not going to comment here anymore.
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amanhiswife,
If you understood how to nurture the libido of a woman, you would understand they have the capacity to experience “multiples” compared to a man. (which drives their libido unmatched to a man)
If a man is not nurturing his wife and putting her first, the likelihood of her wanting to be intimate with a man not fulfilling her does diminish her libido to that man, but in most cases a woman is multil-orgasmic which drives her libido.
The only libido you truly can understand is your own and quite frankly your intimate ideology of understanding of how a woman’s libido works makes you no expert.
I don’t even understand the tremendous physical and emotional rush a woman has when she climaxes, but it is far greater than a man’s.
You need to go to Barnes and Noble and go to the intimate self-help section. It also wouldn’t hurt if you meditated in Eph: 5:25 in the King James Bible as well.
Fortunately for you, we don’t know who you are, so no need to be embarrassed about being ignorant when it comes to be intimate.
Do yourself and your wife a favor and go to Barnes and Noble and check out what drives a woman’s libido, because your eyes will be open.
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amanhiswife,
I would actually be willing to steer you in the right direction as to what you and your wife should be doing but not on this thread. Trust me it will change how you look at your 80% ideology. (in the opposite direction)
Don’t worry many guys like you don’t get it.
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I am still looking for the comment Robert made that I wanted to talk about…
I notice in my post of 2.54 PM, that Robert only chaffed at or mocked my book recommendations but did not address my pointing out how his gender role views are largely the same as codependency, and that codependency is condemned (not supported for married women – nor for men, nor for unmarried women) in the Bible.
I also said in that post,
Is Robert fine that his view points on marriage and gender roles ultimately, can or does, make a wife guilty of idolatry? That was not addressed.
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Daisy, has he answered any question? Bring out the popcorn, though, I’m loving these responses.
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I can’t find the exact quote, but in a post somewhere above, Robert / amanhiswife said something about all the posters here (or Julie Anne alone?) proclaiming that “all women are good all the time.” (That is a paraphrase, I cannot remember his exact wording).
I don’t think anyone on this blog would argue that women are all good, all the time.
I’ve pointed out here and the other blog that I’m actually upset with the fact that large swaths of evangelical / conservative Christianity continue to uphold the sexist gender role stereotyping that all women and girls are sugar, spice, and everything nice.
(It depends, though, as there are some Christian branches that teach the opposite, that all women are evil, Jezebel temptresses who are easily deceived, etc, so, the thinking goes, women have to be controlled by men.)
But there is definitely another strain of Christianity I see that likes to foster this idea that all women are meek, gentle, quiet, passive things by nature, or that this is how women should be. These types of Christians act as though most or all women can never sin, or never do, or never will.
There are news stories about every week now of women school teachers who get arrested for raping their male (or sometimes female) students. I see articles every other day or so of mothers who get charged with selling their own daughters into prostitution or who murder their own children.
Obviously, some women can be evil or perform evil or illegal acts sometimes.
I had a job once with several bosses. All of them were fine, except for one of the women bosses I had. She was rude, condescending, and harassed me daily. I much preferred my male boss to her (they later made another woman another boss above me, she was okay).
I was bullied growing up by both boys and girls when I was a child. The girls were just as nasty and hateful with their insults and taunts as the boys were, and sometimes physical, too (there was hair pulling, etc).
So no, I don’t live in this fantasy world where all women are nice, sweet, loving, trust worthy.
I don’t think that anyone here ever said that all women are good, or that all women are good all the time.
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I was warned by a reader here when this post first went up how big of poison hole this blog was- you have confirmed it many times over.
Oo, Robert. Talk dirty to us.
I will repeat this one last time
Oh Robert! You tease! My desire mounts….
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Julie Anne – I like parmesan cheese and Italian seasoning on my popcorn. I’ll pull up a chair too.
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I like nacho cheese seasoning on my popcorn. Kettle corn seasoning is good, too.
My husband’s response to Robert’s comments is: “He just doesn’t know when to stop, does he?”
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1/9 @ 1:57 p.m. – “here are my closing thoughts.”
1/10 @ 12:34 p.m. – “one last go around here…sorry to not keep my word.”
1/11 @ 4:42 p.m. – “I have nothing more to say to you.”
Oh, Robert. You’ll be back.You can’t resist trying to make yourself look better and control the conversation. Although, you made a fine attempt with your sex tips.
Amanda – The conversation is here and stays here. I have a hard time understanding why you are willing to communicate with others online yet you are not willing to here.
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Robert and Amanda,
Yesterday at 1:05 PM Robert said:
” I’ve threatened more than one abusive husband within an inch of his life when the wife would not leave him.”
Would not leave him? So there is such a thing as an abused wife leaving the husband, huh?
According to a link that you asked permission to link, http://freenortherner.com/2014/06/01/marriage-pick-up-your-cross/?theme=suits, the article states that there is:
“According to tradition, Paul was later martyred by beheading. Peter was crucified upside down.
Paul submitted to Christ to the point of where he spent his life enduring extreme loneliness, extreme deprivation, and brutal torture only to have it end in violent death.
Is your husband ignoring your needs worse than this? Is having regular, if uninteresting, sex worse than this? Is being verbally abused worse than this? Is being smacked around worse than this?
No.
If you are married you do not have the right to divorce your husband for any of this. You do not have the right to stop submitting to you husband for any of this.”
Bottom line, you support abuse, because whatever abuse that a wife endures is no worse than what the Apostle Paul went thru, nor is it worse that what Jesus went thru on the cross, because based on what that article shows, is that the wife has a duty to submit to the husband, just like Jesus submitted to the cross, therefore, you want your wife to pick up her cross.
You even asked permission of the author to link that. And now, you and Amanda wants to defend yourselves, theologically? BOTH OF YOU have some serious fallacies of what the role of a wife is to her husband.
Both you, and that link have some serious fallacies of what the Bible discusses about a woman submitting to her husband.
Ed
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Robert said far above that in marriage there’s always someone who’s the one in charge. Not true. Here’s an example of how a marriage works on one of the most contentious issues for some people – money – without either person being the one in charge: Money Makes My Head Spin Around.
If it can be done about money, it can be done in any area concerning marriage. I think the real issue for patriarchists is that doing it that way is a lot harder than just saying, “I’m the man so I’m in charge.” Well sure marriage is hard work. But it’s worth the effort rather than taking the easy way out and declaring, “Let’s check the genitalia and see who’s in charge.”
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Nehemiah’s detractors spouted a lot of nonsense and I love Nehemiah’s reply: “Nothing like what you are saying is happening; you are just making it up out of your head.” That’s essentially what I say about the teachings espoused by those who say there is no such thing as marital rape and that husbands get to decide how many orgasms their wives get to have. It’s sad and I’m praying for them.
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Robert & Amanda are not interested in discussion. For all their outrage, they have done nothing but be rude and easily offended while avoiding honest questions and criticism of their views.
Oh well=best of luck to you both!
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I’m still waiting for the chapter and verse where God tells husbands to only let their wives orgasm 80% of the time so they can know who’s in charge in the relationship.
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Julie Anne said,
He has responded to a few of our points, but mostly to tell us we are horrible, wrong, and not Christian or that we are not understanding his views.
He said in his 3.10 post,
I do commend the guy for posting and replying at all, though.
I know when I am up against several people at once on a blog or forum, I normally feel overwhelmed and just drop out of the conversation.
I’d say most of our concerns and questions have not been answered, though.
I reviewed all of his posts. Some of the most common themes that kept appearing:
-Attempts to clarify what he feels are our misunderstandings of his views on marriage and marital rape / forced sex
-States that most Christians for many hundreds of years have supported his views, our views are more recent (and ergo, according to him, incorrect).
-Claims his wife Amanda agrees with him on this stuff
-claims his marriage is doing fine
-tells us to contact his wife via email to confirm he is a swell guy
-mentions his comments/views have been taken out of context by Free Jinger and Lori
He did respond to a few of our points, such as, he disputes that women have as large a libido as men do.
One or two tid bits I picked up upon reviewing all of his posts:
-In the post at JANUARY 9, 2015 @ 1:57 PM, tells us “not to be a jackass” (his phrasing) about these issues but ends his message by saying,
“As always, treat others as you’d like to be treated…God bless”
Other take aways for me:
He is very, very hung up on the notion that his views about dating, sex, women, and marriage are older than most of ours.
That he cannot spot the two or three fallacies in that (and despite some of us pointing it out a few times) is sad, frustrating, and amazing.
I’m not sure what all the names are of these fallacies, except for maybe this one:
–Appeal to tradition Fallacy– (on Wikidpedia site)
——
I hope nobody minds all my posts. I don’t want to come across like a “comment hog.” I just tend to comment more on topics that baffle me, interest me, or repulse me. I hope I’m not annoying anyone with my many posts.
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Robert has brainwashed his wife into believing this nonsense. Now she is peddling it, too. Bravo, Robert.
I see that you don’t like feminists. I grew up during that movement. I find no problem with feminism. I was in the US Navy for many years, and I had many female bosses.
Why did I have many female bosses? Well, since you are one of them religious manly men, I worked in payroll, where I typed, filed, answered telephone’s, etc., a woman’s work, to you, I am sure.
I submitted to women, and I’m sure that you find that ungodly. I’m sure that you find that women in the military to be just as ungodly, too, right? My daughter is in the US Navy, too.
Ed
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Robert: “I have not evaded a single question- I just don’t believe most of them are worth answering.” — this is “word salad” — the method of evasion by an abuser.
“As for the women, including my wife, on the sex piece they were with me and did not call it abuse. In fact most of them said I was right on the money.” — well we want to hear ‘these women’ say it for themselves.
“My wife will not meet with you unless I ask her to. She thinks your site is evil, ungodly and bad news. Amanda does not even want to talk to you, let alone meet you. The only way she would do it is if I asked her and then with great hesitation.” — this is nothing but back peddling; you know Julianne is right and you’re afraid to your wife is going to let the cat out of the bag. Just more control.
“I honestly don’t think we’d get a fair shake with you and I think you are set in your ways, but I’d have her record it and we’d post it on YouTube if we caught you lying. My wife is absolutely sure she would not get a fair shake with you.” — you are trying to set the tone of a meeting that hasn’t even taken place— and I HIGHLY doubt these are your wife’s thoughts and words.
“I’m sure you think my wife is evil also.” —- don’t put words in other people’s mouths since you most likely do this with your wife.
You express yourself like a bully on a playground that just got showed up.
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Julie Anne
JANUARY 11, 2015 @ 6:56 PM
“Daisy, has he answered any question? Bring out the popcorn, though, I’m loving these responses”.
BTW- Daisy you knocked it out of the park, at missdaisyflower
JANUARY 11, 2015 @ 5:00 PM
I have been following this all day with popcorn in hand. I didn’t add my 2 cents because every one here just nailed it. Bravo, Thank-You, to all who responded to Robert.
It is terribly upsetting to read how he has portrayed his wife. He smacks of superiority & self righteousness while claiming she was a rebellious, abusive wife for 10 years.
In my opinion, heck no, she fought against his control, she was fully human & alive when she stated her struggles in keeping the house clean to his expectations, and many other words out of her own mouth.
I feel so sad for her, methinks, she gave up and drank the poison kook-aide because he broke her.
Hoping she finds herself and knows it is biblical to name her truth, kinda like the Psalms, you don’t sugar coat, you name it, cry out to God, one cannot say a rotten egg smells like a rose.
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“My wife will not meet with you unless I ask her to.”
That statement says a lot.
1. Control
2. Submission
The wife has no say in the matter. The word “ask” is really a demand. The wife does not have the right to refuse. If he asks, or demands, she complies. She has no choice, under the “submit to your husband” rule, based on a twisted concept of the word “submit”.
Ed
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Regarding chapmaned24 JANUARY 11, 2015 @ 8:06 PM post.
You’re saying that Robert asked some guy’s permission to link to that on Robert’s blog or somewhere? The views on that page, wow. 😯
Quotes from that page
Hence my suggestions above that women who are in these marriage need to read books such as Boundaries and No More Christian Nice Girl, or look the topics of codependency up online (there are psychiatrists and psychologists who have material on this topic for free on their sites or blogs).
It’s up to the woman to decide for herself what constitutes mistreatment or abuse.
This guy can pontificate all day long that he feels it’s wrong for a woman to feel that being verbally/ emotionally/ physically abused by her husband is grounds for divorce, but that is not his choice to make. It’s the woman’s.
I have a healthy respect for marriage and commitment, but some of these guys have turned marriage into a Golden Calf they worship. I suspect the abusive men take these views because they want a victim to be trapped into staying with them.
Divorce is not the worst thing in the world, by the way. I remain mystified by Christians who behave as though a woman divorcing a man is on the same level of say, grown men who rape toddlers, or radical Muslims who decapitate Christians and Jews in the Middle East.
Anyway, it doesn’t matter if the man who wrote that page thinks regular yet uninteresting sex is not a reason for a woman to divorce a husband; that is for her to decide. You and I may or may not agree with that woman’s choice to divorce over that reason, but it’s her life and her choice.
But regarding that guy’s “smacked around” comment and the like? When a man starts abusing his wife, it ceases to be a marriage anyhow. He has already broken the covenant, and she is free to go.
(I’d also argue the same is true if the genders are reversed. There’s no reason a man should stay in a marriage where there is abuse by the wife.)
Women do have a right to divorce over any of that and to refuse to “submit” to their husband. The Bible teaches that wifely submission is voluntary, not compulsory or to be forced by male writers or husbands.
Note how the author is defining or understanding “submit” to mean the husband is in authority over the wife, which is the opposite teaching of Jesus about authority, as well as what the text in Ephesians 5 is saying.
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Robert: “That vast majority of men have a higher, much higher sex drive then their wife. Not all- but most. Google will quickly confirm this.”
What Robert fails to say is a large population of men are *porn addicts* and a good deal of them are sitting in church every Sunday!!! You have allowed your sex drive to be TWISTED and what you pass for a sex drive is LUST!
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amanhiswife said,
we discussed were the churches position & what was considered the biblical position to have for over 1950 years.
Another reason this bothers me is that there is a long history of sexism in the church since the first few hundred years. It’s my understanding that a lot of sexist views of today are the result of sexist Christian views of the past.
While Jesus was still on this earth, he had to fight against the sexism in his culture, day, and time.
The Pharisees and even Jesus’ own disciples questioned why he taught women at all, or why he met with women alone, or why he showed respect to prostitutes. They found Jesus’ respectful treatment of women shocking, confusing, or scandalous.
(Do you know one of the very few reasons I am just barely holding on to the Christian faith at all? Because of Jesus. People spouting off the stuff that Robert has been doing here, and he says Jesus condones these things, makes me want to say “bye-bye, Christianity.”)
Paul is on record in the New Testament epistles as fighting against Gnostic heresy that was already creeping into the church within, how many decades since Christ was crucified and ascended?
There are people today who are dabbling in Neo-Gnosticism, some of these people claim to be Christian, too. Just because some teaching or another has been around for 1,950 years does not necessarily make it true or biblical.
You can read about the history of sexism in the church on pages such as,
_The Origins of Sexism in the Church_ (this is a Christian site)
_20 Vile Quotes Against Women By Religious Leaders From St. Augustine to Pat Robertson_
Robert / amanhiswife can tell me that the church has been fine and peachy with sexist or misogynist practices or teachings for 1,950 years, but that does not always make those views or practices “biblical,” moral, ethical, correct, or God’s intent.
God permitted the Old Testament kings and guys, such as David, Solomon, and Abraham, to have dozens or hundreds of wives and concubines, but Jesus explained in the Gospels that God never intended for marriage to be more than one man married to one wife (see Matthew 19:4, 5).
God tolerated those Old Testament guys to practice Polygamy for hundreds of years, but that doesn’t mean he approved of it, accepted it, planned it be that way, or liked it.
Jesus taught his followers to always be on the look out for false teachers, and Paul taught Christians to be on the look out for false doctrine because they knew it would creep into the church.
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Ann said,
A social commentator and sociologist who is also Christian, Mark Regnerus, wrote a blog post about two months ago where he argued that because Christian marriage rates are so very low, and that Christian men porn usage rates are so very high, that Christian single women should not refuse to marry Christian men who are porn users or porn addicts.
_THE PORNOGRAPHIC DOUBLE-BIND by Mark Regnerus_
First of all, Regnerus assumes that single Christian women should drop their ethical standards and marry a guy who they would normally not feel comfortable marrying.
Next Regnerus is apparently assuming that the reason there are sky high prolonged singleness rates going on among Christians is that many Christian men porno addicts are begging single Christian women to marry them and being refused due to their porn problem. I have to correct him on this point.
Most Christian women, aged 30 and up, will tell you they cannot find single, Christian adult men to marry, and they do want to marry.
Walk into most any Baptist or evangelical church, and the most of the men you see are either 75 years old and widowed, or 45 and ALREADY married. Christian single ladies do not have oodles and oodles of porn addicted (or even non-porn addicted) men pursuing them, asking them for dates, or attending their churches.
Next up for consideration is an article I saw a few weeks ago that said the reason men are delaying marriage or avoiding it altogether is that they are so fixated on their porn/
The reports said that many of these men sit at home all day staring at naked ladies on TV or the internet – they are not even leaving the house to go to a church, bar, or night club to meet single women in person.
In other words, true to form, as is the usual Christian habit, Christian women are being blamed for the mistakes or sins of Christian men. If Christian men are not marrying (because they sit at home all day looking at porn), this is blamed on the Christian women by Christians such as Regnerus.
I’ll see if I can find one of the links on that study.
_Porn getting in the way of marriage?_
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As enlightening as Robert’s #5 sex tip is, I especially love #2 and #3. Never listen to your wife, or women, about sex. They don’t know what they’re talking about and they don’t know what they want. But, then Robert says listen to your wife about sex. Not meaning to contradict, but does so. Also, be dominating (because that’s what women like), but also be safe and caring.
Yeah….I can say that I don’t like being dominated. Ewwww…
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Oh, and #1:
“Get rid of any sexual immorality in your life. No more porn. Yes it will be hard, especially until she comes around, but deal with it. She’s going to have some dealing with of her own, why do you feel justified to ask her to do it if you aren’t willing? Be godly.”
What does “She’s going to have some dealing with of her own” mean? This sounds threatening to me.
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What is fascinating about Robert, and those weird MRA sites, is that they all speak out of both sides of their mouth. It’s very OBVIOUS.
It’s like saying, “I hate chocolate milk, but I drink it because I love chocolate milk”.
“Well, which is it?”
“I already told you that I hate chocolate milk, what part of I love chocolate milk do you not get?”
Ed
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There is a huge difference between confidents and dominate.
I would Say that Robert and Mark Driscoll are NOT confident, that is why they try to act dominate. They know if women had the choice they would not marry them, if they were married to them and could would divorce them, would not have sex with them, would not have children with them.
These men want to pretend all men have this problem. They don’t. I know many men who many women are desperate to have sex with, be married to, have children with, of course these men are confident, not dominate. Roberts (icky men women don’t want) is showing.
There are two men in my town who present them selves like Robert, these men can not keep a girlfriend. My best friend would not give one of these men the time of day, so he retaliated by telling every one in town she was guy. Anther guy told people the girl he wanted (who would not have him) was having sex with her cousins. These men are very misogynistic, because women drop them like a hot potato once she gets to know him.
I believe my rapist wanted desperately to have sex with nothing but a virgin little girls every time he had sex, but he felt comfortable with me, even though he would prefer a virgin. These kind of abusers say to themselves, this person is use to me and my abuse, if she left me I would have to take the chance of getting another person to put up with me. I have this one trained, what if I cant train another one, it will be to hard and risky. I will just continue to manipulate, intimidate, and bully this one, this is easier, safer, how dare she try to escape me. Because you are not wanted, and that is your fault, not hers.
Robert is pretending like he knows things he does not about sex, women, and rape. Robert does not know or care. Men who hate for women and little girls to be bullied, manipulated, intimidated to have sex against her will, are irresistible. Robert is a gross sicko, just as Ariel Castro, loser man who wanted to be dominate in charge of female slaves was a gross sicko.
Robert, I was Forced, bullied, manipulated into intercourse as a child. Men who have to use manipulation, bulling, and force are not attractive, unless you feel child rapist are attractive.
As some one who grew up in rape, the most important thing for me is the right to say no, the right to escape a sicko man. Robert does have the same insecurities, fetishes, and world dreams as my rapist.
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Thanks for mentioning that, Kathi, that sentence bothered me, too. It almost sounds like, “Listen, wife, since I am having to give up porn, then you’re going to have to give me sexually what I was looking at in porn.”
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Missdaisyflower, I love reading your post, they are so informed with clarity. I am sorry about my dyslexic post.
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“I also note that they are fans of Debi Pearl’s book Created To Be His Helpmeet
Oh, bleccchhhhh. I need brain bleach at the mention of that [self censored]. I just KNEW that the Pearls were going to come into this somewhere.
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@ chapmened said,
Yes, I’ve noticed that too. They often hold contradictory positions.
Even more than that is a lot of the unmarried MRA type guys keep saying they really want a girlfriend (or wife), but then turn around and spew all sorts of horrible, sexist, insulting and/or violent rhetoric against women.
If you think women are that terrible, stupid, shallow, frustrating (_insert whatever other negatives here_), why do you want to date a woman to start with? Maybe you should investigate the wondrous possibilities of lifetime singleness. Or take up a new hobby.
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Thank you Guest. I am glad you got something out of my posts here.
I have read your posts above and the ones in the past on other threads, and I would like to tell you again I am terribly sorry for what you experienced. 😦
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MRA
My father wanted women/girls, but knew they would not want him back, and if they got to know him would leave him. My father lusted after underage girls, he wanted these girls to get pregnant, that would be good punishment for them not liking him back.
My rapist had sexually sadistic thoughts about little girls he could not get off his mind, he wanted every body to hate little girls with him.
If I had a dollar every time a MRA told me he was dating a supermodel I would be a millionaire. I have been getting Italia, Paris, British, and US Vogue for years, I know most of the men these models are dating.
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Robert definitely talks out both sides of his mouth. Divorce is “wrong” even when the woman is being abused… unless it’s your mom getting a divorce, then it’s fine and you pay for it.
http://www.clubcreatingkeepsakes.com/forums/p/60806/504806.aspx#504806
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I think this is a very important post as a whole, with good comments in the combox. How I read Robert is as someone doing an imitation, and not being able to quite pull it off. Its someone trying to sound loving and orthodox in his view of sex and marriage, but he can’t keep from letting his control issues seep through in his words, and so the deeper things get the more that monster inside strains at the seams and we see him peeking through more and more,
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Divorce is not the worst thing in the world,
AMEN, Daisy. John Piper and the Robert’s of the world would have marriage as an idol to be worshipped and endured as if we were called to be martyr’s. Barbara Robert’s says it all from biblical text in her book “Not Under Bondage”. Also correct, this is not gender specific, but is usually the woman who is the target.
Malachi 2:16 is so messed up in translation. So many reduce that passage to “God Hates Divorce” without looking at the big picture. I’ve been told that those who are divorced can’t possible be saved. Oh, but a thief, abuser or murderer who repents can be saved. Please!!!!
If Amanda would like a copy of Barbara’s book, I would be willing to buy her a copy.
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“I already told you that I hate chocolate milk, what part of I love chocolate milk do you not get?”
Ed, This is toooo funny, but oh so true. This is going to keep me in stitches for a while.
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Guest,
Our NO should mean NO, no matter how old we are!! If our NO is not respected, then we are violated. Married or unmarried, child or adult, it is violation. The red flags of abusive people get bigger and brighter from experience.
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