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Is there such a thing as “rape” in a Christian marriage?
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JA note: Thanks to Kathi for putting this post together this week as I’m finding my groove with a new term back at college.
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Robert posts on his blog, A Man, His Wife, and the Bible and is married to Amanda. That is all that we know about Robert, although I do think that his Doctrines and Beliefs tab tells us quite a bit.
With regard to physical abuse, Robert believes that it is not grounds for divorce. Robert also believes that emotional abuse is overused and overblown by women today. He does think that both sexes are capable of emotional abuse, but it is more “culturally acceptable” for women to be emotionally abusive.
Adultery is the only Biblical grounds for divorce, and adultery is defined as “physical intercourse with someone not your spouse.” Forget that emotional stuff because everyone does it.
When children enter the picture, a wife is to teach them to honor the Lord and her husband. And, let’s not forget that a wife is to submit to her husband in all things – including his sexual desires – which does not surprise me in the least about Robert’s view of sexual abuse considering the following (added spaces for easier reading):
Sexual Abuse:
Biblically, we do not believe marital rape is possible. Scripture clearly teaches in 1 Corinthians 7 that a wife’s body is her husbands and a husband’s body is his wife’s.
We believe consent is given at marriage.
We believe the teaching on marital rape is a poison in the well of women’s hearts and minds towards their husbands and marriage & does much damage. However, we also do not condone a husband taking his wife against her will and strongly state that a man should not do so. In situations of repeated and enduring refusal, professional help and Matthew 18 need to be worked through & not force to be used.
We also believe that denying a spouse sex is just as much abuse as forcing sex upon a spouse.
Lastly, we do not believe sex where a man and woman engage in sex while intoxicated is rape.
In closing, we put equal responsibility on each party in such a situation. Any marriage where sexual abuse is taking place needs to get help from a pastor, or in some situations law enforcement. (Source)
Let’s pause there for a moment and look at the definition of marital rape:
Marital rape can be defined as any unwanted intercourse or penetration (vaginal, anal, or oral) obtained by force, threat of force, or when the wife is unable to consent. (Source)
Back to Robert…
How in the world can he honestly say that he does not believe that marital rape is possible when he states that he does not condone a husband taking his wife against her will? Taking a wife against her will is the definition of marital rape, therefore you must believe that marital rape is possible.
Robert doesn’t go so far as to say that sexual assault is a woman’s fault, but when I read this, I think he comes pretty close. He almost makes it sound that sexual assault is a result of a woman denying sex to her husband. And then to say each party has equal responsibility, but if raped while intoxicated is null and void? In the end, I think Robert’s belief that marital rape is not possible is because there are enough loopholes to get a man out of being accused of raping his wife.
Oh, by the way, when Robert says, “We do believe,” he is referring to himself and his wife, Amanda. He makes it very clear in the Doctrines and Beliefs that they both believe these things. This makes me sad for Amanda and I want to know if that is what she really believes. I certainly hope that this man is not a pastor. I can’t imagine that any woman who comes to them with problems in an abusive marriage will receive any help.
photo credit: Klardrommar via photopin cc
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Robert,
Typically when people are in an abusive relationship the one who is being verbally vomited on is the one to leave. This is to show that you will not take this kind of behavior lying down. The fact that you say that your wife was out of control yet she left to the “cabin” on the premises, which sounds quite suspicious to me, does not make sense.
If seems that you are being called on your so-called “theology” and are sweeping to cover your tracks. Wives will often do and say exactly what their husbands say after years of crazy-making and even appear to be crazy and out of control. They are at the end of their rope and don’t know what to do. At this point, from what I have read, I would advise Amanda to get some long term distance from you and see if there is not a huge difference in her thought process.
So far you have wanted us to believe you re: what her beliefs are, but she is not saying a word. Is she back in the “cabin”.
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Is anyone else buying the idea that this man who hates feminism would seek counsel from a counselor who is an ordained feminist-flag-waving counselor? For realz, Robert? Who goes to a counselor who depicts everything you despise? I’m calling bull honky on this.
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My wife was terribly unsubmissive for the first ten years of our marriage… For years I was accused of being an abuser and got sideways looks even from family and those in church. – words of Robert.
my wife who has for a year in multiple forums said I am not an abuser – also words of Robert.
We should believe your wife when she say you are not an abuser, but when she say – by your own admission – that you are one, we should not?
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So a man who is the sole provider and taking care of the kids is supposed to clean also? What exactly does the wife contribute? It is this kind of thinking that proves to me that this site is posion.
Can a wife be rebellious- God uses the term for his people, not me. Take your agruement up with him. And since he used it for men- most definetly men can be rebellious. But as my wife has clearly explained that was not the case in our marriage. It was her who was rebellious. Is it so hard to accept that a woman can be rebellious and not just men?
A wife and counselor…most people will not give you sound advice. In fact half of my wife friends counseled her the exact opposite. I had no problem loving my wife and trying to make things work- but a christian’s stand on marriage is to honor it. That is the starting point. In hindsight, again my wife admits I was correct in asking her to not hang out with these women.
As far as if my wife wanted divorce, because she said it often. I told her I did not want that to be what would happen, but that I would not stop her. In fact, she didn’t want the kids or anything and I insisted on splitting custody, getting her a house and setting her up financially so she would not be upon hard times.
We disagree on the marriage vows and biblical teaching on sex of this there is no doubt. There is no debating it. But again I state, a husband should not ever take his wife against her will. It’s been stated by me, just here over two days, many times. We will just have to disagree.
All of this is very public- but you will only pull quotes from FJ’ers and look at the post from Lori’s site.
I again will state, I could make every single one of you look like a monster if I wanted to spin the information a certain way.
Your charges are me against my wife. And yet my wife has not only flatly contradicted everything you say here but gone above and beyond. You have an agenda- and it is not the truth.
Julie Anne, your in eastern Washington. How about you meet up with my wife and ask her. And when you do you write up an apology- for everything except the theology difference- because we are both in agreement that maritial rape is against the law and that men should not take their wife against her will.
If you want the truth- the real truth- then let’s see if you are about the truth or your agenda.
Robert
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Robert said:
“There were times were my wife, again we had a bad marriage- one she has taken the lions share of the blame for would go to her friends house and bad mouth me and they would tell her to divorce me. I did not want her hanging around such friends even if they were at a biblestudy. I had no problem with her talking or spending time with women who would listen, give her godly advice and honored marriage.”
Isolating your wife from her friends because you don’t like what they have to say to her is abusive. Having her talk to women who fit your idea of giving “godly advice” is abusive.
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The offer to Julie Anne stands. Other than that I am done with you guys. My wife doesn’t post because she is so mad at you she can’t speak straight. In her words, I would not present myself Christlike.
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amanhiswife and all,
If men and women understood biblical principles about relationships then both genders would know intimacy is all about the woman.
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Is anyone else buying the idea that this man who hates feminism would seek counsel from a counselor who is an ordained feminist-flag-waving counselor?
Nope, not buying one word.
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“So a man who is the sole provider and taking care of the kids is supposed to clean also? What exactly does the wife contribute?”
If you make a mess you clean it up. It’s common courtesy.
“But again I state, a husband should not ever take his wife against her will”
You also stated that “a husband is not stealing sex. Because he literally is entitled to it.” You cannot feel entitled to sex and respect your sexual partner (your wife) at the same time. It is a gift you give to each other.
“Entitlement” is the red flag.
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because we are both in agreement that maritial rape is against the law and that men should not take their wife against her will.
Is this an admission that there is such a thing as marital rape? Is this an admission that marital rape is a man taking his wife against her will?
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I could make every single one of you look like a monster if I wanted to spin the information a certain way.
Go for it Robert. I don’t believe that you have a snow balls chance in Florida of doing what you say that you can. As for your wife, she may be brain washed by now and I don’t see her coming here to your defense. I’m thinking that a youtube video of her showing a happy healthy person full of life might convince me that you are not a misogynist abuser, but otherwise probably not.
If Amanda’s friends were telling her that she has Stockholm Syndrome, that is very specific and takes an ample amount of abuse to inflict that on a person.
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So Robert what you are saying is that you will not permit her to post here. If your wife genuinely wanted to post here and defend you, she would. There must be a reason other than being “mad at us” that she does not defend you. A woman in love and in agreement with her husband can say things and be Christlike no matter what is being said.
Sorry Robert, not buying it.
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Mark,
Do you have a reason for repeating this: If men and women understood biblical principles about relationships then both genders would know intimacy is all about the woman.
Intimacy is not all about the woman.
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“So a man who is the sole provider and taking care of the kids is supposed to clean also? What exactly does the wife contribute?”
I have a question. How is the sole provider managing to go to work and take care of the kids at the same time? I am thinking that Amanda is taking care of them during that timeframe. What is Robert’s idea of a clean house? Does every dish need to be cleaned at all times? Do the hand towels in the bathroom need to be in perfect alignment? Do the canned goods in the kitchen cabinet need to be in alpha order with the labels facing the front? Have you seen, “Sleeping With the Enemy”. I cried through the entire movie during a visit at the Underground Railroad the first time around when it had first come out. I am wondering if Amanda’s reaction would be the same.
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Robert, I’m having a hard time believing that Amanda really wants to post here. If she really wants to, then she should. If she does, though, I will have a hard time believing that it’s actually her that’s posting.
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Robert,
As far as the piece at Lori’s and it being awful and you sounding like an abuser, did you use the word “discipline” to describe your method of conflict resolution with your wife, or was that word put in by someone else (Lori, or whoever put the piece together)? Is it an accurate description, in your opinion?
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Cabinetman, Robert, Whoever you are. From all accounts you abused your wife into your version of submission. You used “punishment”, “discipline”, making her sleep on the coach, sending her to the “cabin”. You are an abuser and are blinded by your sense of entitlement. I have been working on getting materials to domestic violence abuse shelters and programs. I think I will work on Washington state this week.
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Are these Amanda’s own words, Robert?
I didn’t see a response to this Julie Anne.
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Hi Brenda,
I didn’t think (between the sparring with Robert) anybody was paying attention..
I strongly disagree with your assertion. (but I pretty much agree with most everything else you post)
I didn’t embrace that ideology until I read a book written by a woman almost 25 years ago. Mutually my wife and I discovered “that intimacy is all about the woman”.
If a man puts himself first then there is no actual fulfillment for the woman or the man. (even if the man thinks he satisfied when in reality he is robbing himself and his wife)
I’m not going to go further than that on this thread as it would require a rather descriptive account (but tasteful) of what I’m talking about.
I’m confident you would be a little more agreeable. And certainly Christina Marital Rape on a woman is a by product of not putting the woman first.
Song of Solomon is a good book to start and after meditate on Eph: 5:25
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Lori and Ken have an extremely off the wall view of submission and headship. I agreed with some of the women’s responses to that post. There is something wrong with that whole thing. Ken actually told them it was because of their lack of submission and pride. Gag me with a spoon!!!!!
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Robert, I’d love to meet up with your wife. Please have her contact me spiritualsb@gmail.com
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I totally LOLed at this. I may have mentioned this recently, but a friend of mine (husband/father) posted public Facebook note in tribute to his wife after he realized how much his wife worked at home. He told her she should go to Europe to visit her sister, so she left with their infant and the 3 other children stayed home with dad as he tried to manage the home.
He said that he could not get anything done, each day consisted of non-stop interruptions, he couldn’t even go to the bathroom in peace. Yes, this is the life of a mom. He said that staying home and doing what she was doing as a stay-at-home homeschooling mom (he owns his own successful business) was far more difficult physically and emotionally than what he does to bring home the bacon.
You sure have entitlement issues. What is your wife entitled to?
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Are you going to write an apology piece when she tells you what I have said is true?
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Brenda R: “Gag me with a spoon!!!!!”
LOL! Like, totally!!!
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I was paying attention, Mark. I just wasn’t sure where you were going with it. I would like to know what book ya’ll read. I suppose it depends on your definition of intimacy. I think I know where you are going with this and no I don’t think this is an appropriate thread to go there. I know that men are told to love their wives and wives are told to respect their husbands although I believe the two go together. When I read Solomon’s Song, I don’t read it in a Mark Driscoll kind of a way, I hope that is not a problem.
I gotta tell you Mark, When It comes to verses like Solomon’s Song 1:9 “I liken you, my darling, to a mare harnessed to one of the chariots of Pharoah”, I don’t get shivers going up my spine. I’m thinking baby, you need to come up with some better material.
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“when she tells you what I have said is true”
She may very well say whatever you want her to say. If these comments here: https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/01/08/marital-rape-is-it-even-a-possibility-in-christian-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-224481 are also true, then she herself says, “I’ve finally figured how to abide to keep a peaceful house, but much to my own sacrifices.”
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Robert: “Are you going to write an apology piece when she tells you what I have said is true?”
I don’t think there should be a condition set to meeting with Amanda. Amanda should meet with Julie Anne because she wants to.
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Robert: I have more to ask. (BTW, I have been noticing that you are evading my questions.)
Earlier a commenter said that you intentionally allow your wife to orgasm 80% of the time. I actually read that exact comment and if I had the time, I’d dig up the link. (If someone has it, please feel free to post it. It might have been on Ken and Lori’s blog.)
My question to you: how often do you have orgasm during sex?
You feel your job is to control even your wife’s pleasurable experience in sex. Does she control your orgasms? Why not? Why doesn’t she leave right in the middle of sex so you only get 80% orgasms? How would you like that?
Good grief, I can’t believe I’m typing this stuff, but what you have written publicly about your control of your wife is ABUSE. You are the one who needs help, Robert.
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I’m a pretty fair and reasonable person. Shoot, I even gave JD Hall the benefit of the doubt and everybody thought I was nuts and now I have 2nd thoughts about the situation. If I genuinely feel that I have been out of line, sure I’ll apologize.
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“I’ve finally figured how to abide to keep a peaceful house, but much to my own sacrifices.”
If Amanda is having to be the peacefaker, make all of the sacrifices and changes while Robert does all of the discipline and punishment what will he be feeding her to say. She is obviously just going through the motions to keep him happy and be able to live in the house while keeping the family together. He decides who she can be with and who she can’t.
Flashbacks!! Amanda, run!!!
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Julie Anne,
Point blank I asked you if my wife agrees with my teaching and what I have stated here are you going to an issue an apology and you have evaded it. I have not evaded a single question- I just don’t believe most of them are worth answering.
As for the women, including my wife, on the sex piece they were with me and did not call it abuse. In fact most of them said I was right on the money. Now it may be considered abuse by you- and then you can call it abuse if you so desire. But it is not called abuse by my wife or the women who follow the blog (non FJ’ers).
My wife will not meet with you unless I ask her to. She thinks your site is evil, ungodly and bad news. Amanda does not even want to talk to you, let alone meet you. The only way she would do it is if I asked her and then with great hesitation.
I honestly don’t think we’d get a fair shake with you and I think you are set in your ways, but I’d have her record it and we’d post it on YouTube if we caught you lying. My wife is absolutely sure she would not get a fair shake with you.
I’m sure you think my wife is evil also. She loves Lori’s site. Posts there regularly. We do not agree with Ken and Lori on things like spanking, but we agree with them 80% on the submission/headship.
But if you actually wanted to know the truth, you’d see my wife posts there almost daily- also on my site more than daily- and yet you think she is not fully on board.
Again, she has over a year track record of posting publically on what she believes, if in doubt ask the FJ’ers.
Believe it or not, there are still women like the ones who followed my blog and have publlically commented how much the teaching has improved their marriage- and my Amanda- who do not believe as you do. In fact my wife is more hard core about this stuff than I am..
You can believe anything you want- we’ve had far worse than this piece happen to us from FJ’ers. Truth is we have a beautiful loving marriage. We spend most of our time laughing when we are together. We have each other backs and we have two great kids who do well in school are happy and healthy. I know you find that hard to believe but then we look at the women here and go how are you happily married. We believe drastically different things, yet I know my wife and I are happy- are you?
Call me anything you want. Send anyone you want to check on my wife and kids. We are quite happy. I hope we both get to share heaven, but I’m sure we both have our doubts about the other. God bless-
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Okay I see you answered. Thank you.
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Brenda,
My impression about Mark Driscoll is he puts himself ahead of the woman thinking that’s what the woman wants whether she realizes it or not and even if she didn’t want intimacy its her obligation anyway.
That’s speculation however based on my interpretations of opinions in threads like these and actually a rather vulgar bull-moose account of someone I know who embraces Mars Hill and their philosophy of what women really want,
I haven’t read Driscoll’s book and never will.
I’m sorry, I don’t remember the author or even the title of the book we read 25 years ago. We moved and some how we didn’t pack that book.
When a woman submits herself she is making that choice freely.
The problem lays when the man pursues his wife when she isn’t ready but is manipulated into submission or worse rape.
Consensual and fulfilling intimacy can’t work if the man puts himself first.
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“I have not evaded a single question- I just don’t believe most of them are worth answering.”
But if you miss the answer Julie Anne gave to your question you attack her as evasive. You’re just a hypocrite. Why don’t you apologize for your false accusation.
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amanhiswife,
you wrote:
“Call me anything you want. Send anyone you want to check on my wife and kids. We are quite happy. I hope we both get to share heaven, but I’m sure we both have our doubts about the other. God bless-”
When you talk about doubting Julie Anne’s salvation, what doctrine do you embrace. Catholic, Calvinist, Reformed, Arminian, Lutheran or is it something else?
I have witnesses Reformed Theologians spend more energy on a Law and Sin Centered Ministry embracing their Methodology around Doubt, Works, Guilt and Unworthiness or “Self” judging their Congregation to Hell, rather than Christ Centered embracing Redemption through forgiveness of sins through his shed blood..
Or do you strictly raise doubt of Julie Anne’s salvation based on the fact you don’t agree with her?
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“We do not agree with Ken and Lori on things like spanking”
{coughs up tea all over keyboard} ????????
But you are friends with these people?
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amanhiswife,
What about the comments RE: the blog post at Ken and Lori’s site. There were many women questioning your use of punishment and discipline used against your wife. This is not marriage, it is slavery.
You are calling out Julie Anne for not answering your question when you in fact have admitted that you are not answering questions because “you don’t think they are worth answering”. I very much disagree. The questions you have been asked are the topic itself. If you had a legitimate theology, you should be happy to answer questions. Obviously, you don’t. Abusive men, hiding behind the façade of Christianity rarely have any answers. It is always the gospel according to ______. Fill in the blank. None of it has anything to do with what is in the pages of the Bible.
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Mark,
Total agreement on Driscoll. I only through that out there because I’ve had so many discussions recently about his porn view of the book and my view of him is that he is a selfish son of a serpent.
I am of a mind that good marital relationships are an all day long every day thing. You are right about the man putting his needs secondary. A more harmonious outcome happens when he spends the time making his bride feel desired and loved. That can be done in so many ways and doesn’t start in the bedroom. A kind word, listening to what she has to say, changing a diaper if you’re in that stage of life……the list goes on and on and is different for the individual woman. Not screaming at her or belittling her if she is not in a good place for romance would help also. These actions only lead to the woman giving in and getting no pleasure from it whatsoever. When a man treats his wife with love and compassion, respect and submission happen naturally. No force is ever needed.
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“I have not evaded a single question- I just don’t believe most of them are worth answering.” LOL! Oh boy did that make me laugh.
Robert, in the very first comment you left on this thread you said that we could email Amanda directly and you provided her email address.
Then you say later that Amanda communicates regularly with people on the blog (I am assuming you mean your blog).
Then you tell us to take Amanda at her word that she is not in an abusive marriage. We have yet to hear from Amanda, although she communicates regularly with others.
Then you ask for Julie Anne to meet up with Amanda. And you expect an apology after that meeting. You are attempting to control the meeting for your sake.
Then you say she won’t speak on the blog because she’s so mad that she can’t see straight. Oh, and apparently she’s so mad that she won’t meet with Julie Anne unless you tell her she should.
Really, I don’t believe a word you say because you seem to have the need to control everything to make it work out for you and make it look good for you.
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Robert asked quite a ways above: “Have you never asked your spouse to leave the premises because they were too hot to contain themselves?”
Never, not once in over 27 years of marriage, and never even tempted to do so no matter how things were at the time.
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Seriously, did Robert actually say he only allows his wife to have an orgasm 80 percent of the time? That makes my skin crawl.
I have a Ph.D. in sociology, a BA in psychology, am a born again Christian (Arminian), and spend a lot of time on Bible Study and here is my opinion. Robert is a sick puppy. It is not only abusive to want to maintain control over another adult, it isn’t even healthy for the controlling person even if he thinks he has gained something.
No wonder Christian men like this are obsessed with women’s sexuality to the point where a young couple is supposed to have their first kiss at the altar. They are afraid of what will happen if a woman actually learns how wonderful sex can be with a considerate man who truly loves her.
I have an egalitarian marriage to a wonderful Christian husband. We consider ourselves soulmates and we respect each other and talk things out and I am ecstatically happy. Marriage is NOT a zero sum game.
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@ Brenda:
I haven’t read the post with the punishment / discipline statements, but Robert’s statements are full of red flags for me (and that’s without even factoring in the debate about the shed/cabin and the punishment stuff). First, the (apparent) shock he expressed at the notion that he might have to clean the house, sounded extremely entitled. Second, his comments indicating that he either outright told Amanda to stop seeing anyone who told her to get divorced, or strongly hinted/encouraged her to stop seeing these people. Isolating someone from outside influences / support structure / people who disagree with the abuser is Abuse 101.
Also, as others have pointed out, it’s not some kind of argument-ending trump card that Amanda doesn’t think he’s abusive. It’s pretty common for abused people to not describe their partners as abusive. It’s even more common for onlookers not in the situation to not describe the person / marriage as abusive. So while we can’t assume he is abusive just because Amanda thinks he’s not, it’s equally wrong to assume that he isn’t abusive just because Amanda thinks he’s not (which is what he wants us to do). And obviously abusers always claim they’re not abusive, so him repeatedly insisting on this proves nothing either.
Per the OP, he’s hedging big time on his technical semantics around rape / forcing. Okay, so he doesn’t think a husband forcing his wife to have sex = rape. He also apparently refuses to call it “stealing sex” because the husband is “entitled” to sex, and that sex should not happen in marriage only when there is a mutual “no.” So he acknowledges forcing someone to have sex within marriage is bad, but there’s no conceptual room for that in his framework because it doesn’t actually violate any of the given rules. If that’s confusing, here’s what I meant:
Rule #1: Wife gave consent at the altar and therefore all sex acts with her thereafter are consensual. No violation because the forced sex occurred within marriage, and therefore cannot be non-consensual.
Rule #2: Husband is entitled to sex under the marriage contract, and can therefore lay claim to it at any time, as if it were property he had inherited or the one free dessert a year he got as a reward for spending X amount at the frozen yogurt place. No violation because the sex was the husband’s right and he is just “calling in” his right.
Rule #3: Sex should not happen only when both parties don’t want it, i.e. a mutual “no.” No violation because the wife’s “no” is only one “no” and therefore doesn’t meet the criteria.
In other words, the rule “don’t force your wife to have sex with you” has become essentially arbitrary within his own framework. Of course there are always the cautions to the husband like “be considerate about when you ask,” but there’s no actual consequences for him if he’s not considerate, because his niceness or lack thereof isn’t actually relevant to rules 1-3 listed above – i.e., the sex is still automatically consensual, he is still entitled to it, and it still doesn’t meet the mutual “no” criteria, whether he is nice or not nice. So in short, if the husband wants to be an ass, there’s nothing contractually stopping him and it doesn’t affect any of his rights under the contract. And thus the wife has no recourse because technically none of her rights under the contract (assuming she has any, of course) have actually been violated.
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Brenda,
Thanks, it doesn’t take much effort for a man and woman to share a mutual emotional connection where spouses truly love each other.
I think what steered me in the direction that I went was the issue and occurrence of Christian Marital Rape.
I also think too many Christian Men embrace Eph: 5:22 and put the brakes on before they get to Eph: 5:25.
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Robert,
BeenThereDoneThat said to you:
I have to agree with her. This stood out to me, as well. The attitude of entitlement is exactly that of a rapist or abusive spouse. To hear a Christian speak this way about sex is very disturbing to me.
Making your blog private out of the blue strikes me as odd, too. You can do with your own blog as you please, of course. But you say that you and your ideas have weathered worse than this in the past. If you’re convinced that your life and your interpretation of the Bible will stand up to scrutiny, why not open it up to scrutiny? If you’re so sure you have the light, why hide it under a basket?
It’s not right to think to worst of people, especially other believers. But you’re not making it very easy for us, Robert.
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@ Kathi:
Was he demanding an apology for the statements that Amanda disagreed with him, or an apology for people claiming he was abusive? If it’s the latter, I’m not sure how JA was supposed to realize Robert was not abusive by meeting with…Amanda. Wouldn’t she have to meet with Robert to realize Robert’s not abusive?
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Thus, you have evaded answering questions. See, look how you think you get to control even the conversations here by deciding to not answer questions. You blast me and my readers, defend yourself, yet you won’t answer pertinent questions. I’m especially puzzled that you won’t touch the great responses with scripture (from Bike Bubba, Ed, etc) about husband/wife and submission. That is telling, Robert. Keep talking, don’t hold back. Your true colors cannot be missed.
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Did Robert say something about my salvation? I must have missed it.
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@ Marsha:
My thought was, what if she has an orgasm without his permission? He can’t telepathically reach into her nervous system and make it stop. And yeah, this is self-centered as [insert 4-letter word of your choice here]. It’s hard to project “I’m not controlling and abusive” when out of the other side of your mouth you’re basically saying men even get to decide how many orgasms women are “allowed” to have.
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On the COPS TV show the police ask a spouse to leave the premises at least once per show. Of course, those relationships are not examples of Christian marriages but they do demonstrate the types of relationships that result in one spouse needing to be sent to “time-out”,
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@ JA:
He wrote this in his last long comment to you:
Take that whatever way you want.
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Who knows! The reality is that even if I met with Amanda, at this point she could be enabling his behavior and sucked into that destructive system. Many victims of domestic violence will deny they are being abused for years before something happens and they decide enough is enough. It’s the same thing that many of us experienced in abusive churches. Why did we remain so long?
Ultimately, when it comes to people in abusive relationships, they have to decide for themselves when to leave and it usually doesn’t happen because of an outsider, but it comes from something within that stirs them to action.
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JA
Well, he did say, ” I hope we both get to share heaven, but I’m sure we both have our doubts about the other.” But, no worries. He followed it with “God bless-” so I’m sure it’s all fine.
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Thanks, Hester. I obviously let it roll off like a duck and it didn’t even enter my brain. Quack, quack.
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I’m concerned that Robert is considered a “hero” by bloggers who (according to Robert) practice wife spanking.
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Yes, if Robert is amanhiswife
@ 3:10 he wrote:
“Call me anything you want. Send anyone you want to check on my wife and kids. We are quite happy. I hope we both get to share heaven, but I’m sure we both have our doubts about the other. God bless-“
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Hester:
Robert said on Jan. 10th at 1:18 p.m.:
“Julie Anne, your in eastern Washington. How about you meet up with my wife and ask her. And when you do you write up an apology- for everything except the theology difference- because we are both in agreement that maritial rape is against the law and that men should not take their wife against her will.”
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What kind of bizzarro world do we live in when the salvation of a devout Christian woman who calls out spiritual abuse and domestic abuse is called into question? Do people like Robert (or Miano etc) think we women have to be miserable and suffering and under some man’s thumb or we aren’t saved? The sense of entitlement and crappy theology is mind blowing.
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Rule #1: Wife gave consent at the altar and therefore all sex acts with her thereafter are consensual. No violation because the forced sex occurred within marriage, and therefore cannot be non-consensual.
Which of course makes you wonder how it can be forced, since force clearly implies non-consent. So since consent was given at the altar, there cannot really be any such thing as a husband forcing himself on his wife. So why are we even having this discussion? And why bother to say a husband forcing himself on his wife is wrong since it can’t even be real, by definition?
I guess all of those are questions not worth answering? And I guess that too is a question not worth answering? And I guess that too….
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Seriously, did Robert actually say he only allows his wife to have an orgasm 80 percent of the time?
I do wish he would say something on this because how this is not sexual abuse completely escapes me. But then, perhaps this is yet another question not worth answering.
And that makes me wonder if he has something about answering 80% of the questions put to him….
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@ Barnabas:
Yup. His position is nonsensical and illogical. Unfortunately there seems to be a whole (thought thankfully small) subculture of hyper-conservatives who agree with him. Both the guys critiqued in the following links (AFAIK) claim to be Christian. They’re also MRAs, thus my comments early on about Robert aligning with Christian MRAs whether or not he uses the term to describe himself.
(NONE OF THESE LINKS ARE TRIGGER-SAFE)
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/05/23/free-northerner-the-concept-of-marital-rape-creates-the-trauma-of-marital-rape-and-spouses-who-say-no-to-sex-are-sinners/
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2014/05/15/vox-day-the-concept-of-marital-rape-is-not-merely-an-oxymoron-it-is-an-attack-on-the-institution-of-marriage-on-the-concept-of-objective-law-and-indeed-on-the-core-foundation-of-human-civilizat/
And here’s a (presumably) secular guy from another MRA site. And BONUS! This one comes complete with a fantasy conspiracist doomsday in which men are rounded up and enslaved for failing to get women pregnant (…at least I think that’s what he was trying to say):
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/12/11/a-voice-for-men-writer-laments-since-the-advent-of-marital-rape-sex-is-no-longer-a-loving-duty-so-it-has-become-whim-and-weapon/
http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/2013/12/13/a-voice-for-men-doubles-down-how-dishwashers-tv-dinners-and-marital-rape-laws-are-rendering-women-obsolete-also-the-apocalypse/
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I’m away from my computer at the moment. If you want to post something from an MRA site, please use a donotlink link so that MRA proponents dont come to SSB from the hits. Thanks!
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Barnabasintraining,
“Seriously, did Robert actually say he only allows his wife to have an orgasm 80 percent of the time?”
Maybe he needs to deny himself as much as he deny’s his wife.
Of course if he puts his wife first he should be denying himself more than he is denying his wife
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Barnabasintraining:
The 80% thing and not answering questions can give one the sense of power over others. Put them in their place. Etc.
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Bridget,
“The 80% thing and not answering questions can give one the sense of power over others. Put them in their place. Etc.”
It goes a lot further than that.
The 80% thing means he does know what he is doing when it comes to intimacy and really exposes an arrogance of stupidity when it comes to passion.
He’s the one that brought up the “O” word not me. If he knew what he was doing she should be experiencing 5 times the “O’s” compared to what he experiences.
I can’t believe Robert would be so prideful and not know how ignorant he really is.
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I guess my questions (given Robert’s acute definitions of Rape)
Have you ever engaged in sex with a woman while you or your partner were drunk?
Have you ever forced your wife to have sex even though she didn’t want to?
Why are you afraid of a woman being able to say no to her husband concerning sex (or anything for that matter)?
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Oh…one more question.
Why do we have to email Amanda….why can’t she come here and post for herself if she feel so passionate about it?
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@ JA:
The links are to an anti-MRA site critiquing the originals, so the MRA sites won’t get traffic from those links unless some clicks the links to the original within the critiques.
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Ok, great, thanks, Hester. I was on my phone and couldn’t see. I normally have no problem with another site getting hits because (like this time) sometimes the person I’m quoting will join in the conversation. But for pro-MRA sites – no, the ick factor just does me in. LOL
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Word! Ok, I’m going to have to change the ratings on my blog, but don’t most husbands enjoy making their wives sexually satisfied? I mean, if they are the ones helping their wives to achieve that satisfaction, does it not reflect on them? Isn’t that the beauty of sexual intimacy that your spouse, your lover, your soulmate knows you so well and can . . . ummmm push all the right buttons? 🙂
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“Amanda does not even want to talk to you, let alone meet you. The only way she would do it is if I asked her and then with great hesitation.
… I’d have her record it and we’d post it on YouTube if we caught you lying.”
She can only talk to someone who think she is abused if it is video-recorded? I don’t think you want to police JA for potential lying, but Amanda for potential truth-telling.
I bet that Amanda haven’t even been allowed to see this blog conversation – it would give her too many ideas. And I still notice that in the decade you claim the marriage was bad, she apparently did call it abuse – but you expect us not to believe her in that.
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I could not say I was raped for 9 years after it stopped, saying (I was raped) is the hardest thing a person has to say. No one wants to believe or think they have, or are being raped, especially by someone that was trusted, respected and who is adored by many other people. Many rapist, mine included, manipulate, harass, bully, badger, intimidate, and threaten, the person they are trying to get to have sex.
To have sex when one does not want to gives one sick miserable gross feelings.
How convenient that Robert is a man, and everything is arranged to pleasure his heartless, selfish, fetishes at the expense of women. Sex is different for men and women, the man is not being penetrated. I hated it, I dreaded it, I thought the man was the grossest piece of putrid scum. I was desperate as a little girl for the right to say NO, and be left the hell alone, I wanted to escape men. Especially bible quoting men.
My rapist was adamant he was doing nothing wrong, and if there was a problem it was all my fault. Sounds like Robert, the topic is rape, Robert comes on here trying to change the subject to poor him, his wife did not clean house.
Robert, if a man puts his penis in his wife when she does not want him to is it rape?
Do you really believe that a wife saying no to sex is just as bad as a husband forcing intercourse on a wife?
These kind of men say this arrangement is good for the family/Christianity. NO!
This arrangement is good for the self-worshipping, self-benefiting, self-elevating,
self-promoting, self-serving, self-centric, sexually sadistic, sicko men. The man deserves to get and have what he wants, feel what he wants, and if it makes wife sick at her stomach, so be it. Mans feelings trumps wife’s feelings. It is the wife’s job to feel bad to make Christian husband feel good. I wish my mother had divorced my self-worshipping sicko father. Of course my father thought he was glorious and everything was some woman’s fault some where.
Men who want and preach this are, Ariel Castro-centric men who want female slaves that can not escape them, because they are the kind of men women and little girls want to escape, I know, I lived it.
The way Robert and his ilk paint God and Jesus, God and Jesus are both misogynistic pimp slobs.
Robert sounds like a man who has to use manipulation, intimidation, and force to get a woman, to keep a woman, and to get sex. If it wasn’t for the aide of Christianity he would have been dumped.
If these men had any shame, they would be embarrassed that the only way they can keep a woman married to them and get sex is by manipulation, intimidation, and brainwashing. And that is what Christianity is coming to, a refuge for men women do not want to have sex with, be married to, and have children with. For wife rapist and wife beaters. For men who have creepy thoughts about their daughters.
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“, but don’t most husbands enjoy making their wives sexually satisfied?”
Many men do not want women to enjoy sex, because little girls do not enjoy sex, they want the grown woman they are with to pretend or be like a child about sex, she needs to hate it, dread it, it needs to hurt. And men who hate sluts, if she likes it she is a slut, he could never enjoy sex with a slut, so she better damn well hate it.
It reminds me of terrorist, how they want to die and have sex with nothing but virgins. These are the kind of men who look at porn of little girls being sexually tortured.
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You know guest I read most of what you wrote, my eyes gave out about 60% of the way through. I have really bad sight, I consider that, among many issues I struggle with a spiritual, moral, human, biblical …… failure. I am a rather wimpy piece of human trash, at least according to some in the evangelical industry. I would never wish a woman to be forced in any way to engage in any activity they were not able to give free consent. I would not wish to cause pain etc. Granted that makes me dirt at best and that has been made clear to me in my personal experience. True men of God take command, subdue, overcome, etc. Off course that is utter nonsense and I file that along with the fantasy of other biblical narratives.
Personally these “men” need to grow the heck up. You dont treat women or men like that. I find the virgin thing rather strange. I have lived a celibate life from the first day I became a Christian, next to showing grief at the horrid deaths of several people and how utterly despicable and God hating that is, nothing has earned me more scourge than to admit that I did not screw around, have a few kids out of “wedlock” that I dont pay child support to and other badges of honor. I actually helped children that were not my own to grow when their biological parents could not. To my shame because it was not a Christian adoption that had apologetic value. Trust me that is how it is.
Personally I think they can take their magic book and cram it. But that is just me.
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Hester,
You said and stated well: the wife has no recourse because technically none of her rights under the contract (assuming she has any, of course) have actually been violated.
This is a big issue beyond Robert. About 5 years ago,I actually heard a preacher say this very thing. When you marry your bodies belong to the other so be prepared and if you want sex to go well make sure you don’t marry a pig. On the assumption that you haven’t had sex with this person before, how are you suppose to know what they are going to be like after the “I do’s”. Great harm can come to a person who does not have a loving, gentle spouse. Many wolves come out of the sheep suit after the vows are said.
Yes, Robert has one big red flag coming out with each thing he writes. I have come to know those red flags from life’s experience.
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My knowledge of the word rape (to force sex upon an unwilling person) by coersion/manipulation by threat by violence the one most often used in marriage to abuse spouses is the first . Serial adultery is rape it is abuse yet this is NOT how most people name their own disease. Serial adulterers are serial rapists of their spouses the damage is like an unseen tsunami this is life changing forever. Adultery is the epitome of self delusion and expecting/demanding the spouse validate believe and support the lies and deliberate false life a married person in an adulterous life is asking the innocent to not be upset at being used for sex it’s no longer love or making love it’s RAPE( when you are lied to by your spouse to have sex after they have deliberately gone to a stranger of the marriage to join them in abusing the spouse the marriage the vows the very covenant with God is abused for satans lies it becomes apparent just exactly what is behind the evil in today’s broken people why they desire to break innocent ones is beyond me.
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It strikes me that various definitions of rape are being relied on on thses posts. Thus I would request that anyone who is so inclined to define the term. Concision is welcomed. Thanks in advance, and Christ’s Blessings to you!
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@ Keith:
Having sex with another person who is either unwilling or unable to consent. Might also be worth looking into technical legal distinctions between rape and sexual assault, which probably vary by jurisdiction.
Can’t forget statutory rape either (which is based on the idea that one party is too young to consent in an informed manner) and how that might play into this discussion, given that some patriocentrists poo-poo the age of consent and want to push young marriage as far as they can. In fact this time last year I was having an argument on my blog with a guy who claimed I was a legalist because I said child marriage was wrong. Is there something funny in the air the second week of January?
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Yup. His position is nonsensical and illogical. Unfortunately there seems to be a whole (thought thankfully small) subculture of hyper-conservatives who agree with him.
‘
Hester, I read more sights that deal with domestic abuse than spiritual abuse. I don’t believe that small might not be accurate in the numbers that may agree with Robert. There are churches that although might come right out and tell you there thinking, it is still there in unspoken form. It is very difficult to find a church home that will stand against all forms of abuse or any whatsoever.
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@Hester: Thanks. In my jurisdiction we define it as “against the will, by force, threat or intimidation” or “mental or physical incapacity” or “child under 13”. 18.2-61 of the 1950 Code of Virginia as amended. This is a five to life felony. Carnal Knowledge is the intercourse by an adult with a child aged 13 or 14. It is a misdemeanour for anyone 18 or older to have intercourse with a child aged 16 or 17.
Is anyone relying on other definitions of rape?
Sorry for typos. I left my specs somwhere and am having a bit of trouble reading the screen.
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So no one is equating a lack of enthusiasm/diminished enthusiasm with lack of consent?
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JA: I have tried to comment on the SSBFB, but it won’t let me. Any ideas?
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It looks like it is going through now. Sorry to bother.
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I don’t think anyone is using that definition, Keith. I don’t have any problem with a spouse who is tired or preoccupied choosing to have sex with a more enthusiastic partner. It is certainly not rape. Of course if this is a pattern, the couple needs to address whatever is wrong, whether it is overwork, a medical issue or a relationship problem.
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@Marsha: Thanks for responding. There are a lot of posts here, and I am having a difficult time determining what Robert’s definition of rape is. Cheers!
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What is MRA?
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“A husband is not stealing sex. Because he literally is entitled to it- which is exactly what the 1 Cor 7 teaching is all about. Unlike one commentator who is intrepreting this drastically wrong. Only in mutual NO does sex not happen via 1 Cor 7.”
The Corinthians needed a teaching to tell them husbands are entitled to sex? Really, in the patriarchal world of the New Testament nobody would have needed to teach that.
And the word in 1 Cor 7:3 say the husband and wife should render each other due [goodness, kindness – meaning of Greek word], which is here applied to the bedroom. And not defrauding except with consent for a time could also mean God calls spouses to be willing to consent to and honour no for a time.
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@Angie: I think MRA is Men’s Rights Activist?
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Julie Anne,
you posted:
“JANUARY 10, 2015 @ 8:01 PM
Word! Ok, I’m going to have to change the ratings on my blog, but don’t most husbands enjoy making their wives sexually satisfied? I mean, if they are the ones helping their wives to achieve that satisfaction, does it not reflect on them? Isn’t that the beauty of sexual intimacy that your spouse, your lover, your soulmate knows you so well and can . . . ummmm push all the right buttons? :)”
Yes, to answer your question,,,but with Robert’s ideology I’m not so sure. In his case, intimacy is about him. While others may think they are fulfilling their spouses needs with that kind of ideology with the possibility their wives that may not know any better.
Maybe in Robert’s case, his wife wants him to deny her complete fulfillment. (maybe some kind of “good girl bad girl” thing or he’s “in-charge” thing)
Robert doesn’t realize that his ideology is denying himself real fulfillment. It is he that should be denying himself long enough until his wife is completely fulfilled, which is a recipe for emotional connection and intimate compatibility.
Essentially if he puts his wife first in reality he ends up putting himself first, with the knowledge they mutually reached an emotional and euphoric rush.
Really strange that he would expose his ignorance in such a personal way.
But in saying this, they may truly love each other and mutually enjoy their arrangement even with his strange intimate ideology.
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About JA’s wayback machine link, if Lori Alexander can publish a story like Roberts and see nothing bad in it, yet title her blog “always learning” with the subheader “a wise woman is always learning,” I think of 2 Timothy 3:
“… in the last days[,] People will be lovers of themselves…, boastful, proud, abusive, … without love, …, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, …, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
They …worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are … always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
Does the former describe the men of patriarchy? And do the latter describe women like Lori? At least the text has some good news too:
Verse 9 say: “But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.”
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Robert said: “I structure her life and keep it low key. She doesn’t do a lot outside the home. She homeschools and bakes from scratch and takes care of the home. I don’t do this because I’m mean. I do this because very quickly she will become overwhelmed, depressed and exhausted.”
Home schooling is not a wise choice for someone who easily becomes overwhelmed. Children have definite educational needs, which could be neglegted that way. I think Robert let her home school to be in complete control of not just her but also the children, with no teacher or other outside influence. This is not about them, but about him.
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Hester:
I just had the chance to go through the links you provided. It all sounds so familiar, like something I’ve read before. Do these guys all use the same play book?
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The poor girl just gave up and gave in,,,when every aspect of your life is controlled and spelled out in detail, as in what you can do and what you cant do,and when there is punishment for failing to obey, but what amazes me is putting it all out there for the world to see, and to do that only means one thing, he really thinks this is the only way to treat a woman.
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@ Keith:
As far as I can tell, Robert’s definition of rape seems to be something close to “forced sex that occurs outside of marriage.” At least that’s what I see him attempting to communicate. Maybe I’m wrong.
@ Angie:
Yes, MRA = men’s rights activist.
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Hester,
Wow. I went and checked out that Vox Day article on the mammoth site, and did some poking around over there.
I had no idea there were men who think like the “men” they are exposing.
Before I knew this I was happy. Now I am not and might not ever be again. 😦
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Keith,
Join the club. I don’t know what Robert’s definition of rape is either, and he doesn’t seem inclined to tell me as my questions are “not worth answering.”
As far as I can tell, it seems to be something where force is not really force because she gave permanent consent when she said “I do.” Except he keeps using that word anyway.
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Welcome, Bill/Charlie:
I think 42,000 posts by Amanda in a scrapbook community reveals that she was certainly lacking adult interaction and that public forum to share her personal life. The Eastern side of WA can be very desolate. Where can you go when you are so isolated and need help? I read a post that they are off the grid on acreage. This man can do whatever he wants to her and no one would ever have a clue except for people on a scrapbooking forum missing her. I found on Robert’s blog that she wears a headcovering. Is she doing this for him? If so, there could be some control issues going on with that as well.
I have known women who wear headcoverings at church, and to me, that is different because it is part of their worship.
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I’m not going to bother reading the entire lengthy comment thread for Lori Alexander’s post on the Wayback Machine, but I ran across this in one of Cabinetman’s comments:
“Please also understand, that I won’t air dirty laundry on the internet so I will not go into any details except to say this. There was both emotional and physical abuse in our marriage, but it was not performed by me. I was the one living thru it and trying to be loving through it.”
If one spouse is physically abusing another, even if it’s the wife, the one being abused needs to get outside professional help. Not the husband “disciplining” his own wife as though she were an out-of-control teenager who just needed some “tough love”. This whole concept of using discipline within a marriage relationship reduces the wife (and it always seems to be the wife) to the status of a child or slave. She is not her husband’s equal before God, and not his co-heir of the gracious gift of life. I noticed there was an earlier post specifically on husbands disciplining their wives, presumably to defend the practice. I haven’t read it, but I did read a comment by Cabinetman’s wife that basically sounded like “no, I don’t enjoy discipline, but sometimes I needed it” and that for ten years everything wrong was all her fault for being rebellious. Apparently everything fell into place when she learned to lay down her desires, will, etc. and go along with 100% of whatever her husband wanted.
I also note that they are fans of Debi Pearl’s book Created To Be His Helpmeet.
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(I’d like to break my post up into one or two parts, as I’m afraid one long post might be hard to read.)
Part 1.
Robert says he doesn’t believe husbands should force wives to have sex against their wills, but then turns around and says that there is no such thing as marital rape.
By saying this, he has invalidated his own claim there is no such thing as marital rape. Some husbands do in fact force their wives to have, sex regardless of the wife’s feelings and choice in the matter. It does happen.
A husband forcing his wife to have sex against her will is a definition of “marital rape.” It looks to me like Robert is uncomfortable with the label and does not like the phrase “marital rape,” but him not liking the phrase doesn’t make it any less real.
It does not follow that a woman saying “I do” to be married to a man at a wedding ceremony encompasses each possible individual act of sex over the course of their marriage.
Agreeing to marry a man does not by extension grant him all-access to the woman’s body, any time, and in any way he pleases, and that is not what Apostle Paul was suggesting in the Bible with his comments about “his body belongs to her, and her body belongs to him.”
Robert is reading way too much into such passages and distorting them for his own selfish purposes.
(continued in next post of mine)
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My heart is just aching for Amanda. Her life is not her own and her husband has even tried to place himself between her and God. I couldn’t bear to live under that oppression and he thinks normal people are going to hell, normal loving people. I am so sad.
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@ Barnabas:
😦
And they’re not all religious men either. So sadly, there’s no guarantee that someone fleeing fundamentalism/evangelicalism will automatically get away from this garbage.
Any woman even considering dating, should be taught to recognize not just red flags of abusers/controllers/sociopaths/etc., but also the “lingo” of both religious and secular misogynists like the ones profiled at WHTM. Anyone with sons should be training them to recognize this lingo as well, so they know which men to run away from and not treat as role models, trusted friends, etc. Sometimes something as small and simple as a word choice can give you a good indication of what “camp” they’re hanging out in and how they’re thinking.
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NJ, What you revealed on your comment on January 11, 2015 @ 12:52 PM has aggravated my up chuck reflex. This man is the vilest of liars. He speaks with forked tongue and outside both sides of his mouth at the same time.
I am saddened that Amanda may be living in the middle of nowhere without any escape route. I would love to hear from her in her own words, not those of Robert.
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