JD Hall of Pulpit and Pen Launches Voice in the Wilderness Radio

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Pulpit and Pen’s JD Hall launches Voices in the Wilderness Radio with Faithful Theology and Faithful Preaching

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The last we spoke of JD Hall and Pulpit and Pen was in this August 2014 article, JD Hall’s Public Confession Regarding His Twitter Conversation with Ergun Caner’s Son, Who Later Committed Suicide. JD (Jordan) spoke with both Dee Parsons of The Wartburg Watch blog and me after this public confession. Against the opinion of a lot of naysayers, we both believed Jordan’s confession to be genuine and hoped that his online persona and sharp personality would soften.

Hall did take a break from social media. It wasn’t a long break. For a while, the Pen & Pulpit Twitter account was turned over to the Pulpit and Pen contributors:  Gene Clyatt, Dustin Germain, Kofi Adu-Boahen, Alan Maricle, and Seth Dunn. Late September, I saw that JD Hall had started his own Twitter account.  Today I received confirmation that JD Hall, along with the Pulpit and Pen contributors, are manning the Pulpit and Pen Twitter account.

Additionally, JD Hall is also once again contributing at Pulpit and Pen blog (I think they forgot to update the contributor page to include Hall) and yesterday he announced the launching of Voices in the Wilderness radio today, January 1, 2015.

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Here is the scoop from the website:

Voice in the Wilderness Radio (VWR) launches January 1, 2015. This new 24/7 streaming radio station will offer solid, Reformed Baptist preaching from true voices in the wilderness – pastors you might never have heard of but who offer solid, expository sermons – and preachers you’ve might have heard of like John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Albert Martin, Justin Peters and Paul Washer. VWR will also carry programs like Generations Radio, Cross Encounters Radio and the P&P Contributor Hour. Between sermons, we will play hymns and smaller clips highlighting the work of men like AW Pink and others. It is a treasure trove of rich, dynamic preaching and sound theology.

Hall also mentioned that they “will always be seeking new pastors to highlight on VWR” and welcome sermon submissions. Please note the focus of “faithful theology” and “faithful preaching” as shown on the screenshot of the website. It’s an important and very appropriate focus.

I have some concerns, however. Cross Encounters Radio is Tony Miano’s show and Generations Radio is Kevin Swanson’s program. Generations Radio is listed twice within a 24-hr period on the current schedule. I shudder to think what will come out of Swanson’s mouth after this nonsense (saying that women who have been on birth control pills have embedded fetuses embedded in their wombs). And my regular readers have a good idea what I think about Miano who says women shouldn’t read the Bible in front of men because the Bible is authoritative and they are not in authority over men. Here are Tony Miano’s words transcribed from the 18:22 mark of this video:

And whenever a woman stands up on a box to proclaim the gospel in the open air, or even read scripture aloud, she is taking on the role of a man. She is taking on an authoritative role over whoever is listening to her.

The mere reading of scripture is to exercise authority because scripture is the authority. (Source)

I think it’s important to bring up one more note while I’m at it. Recently there has been a Twitter brouhaha with the hashtag #the15 (click on the link to see what I’m talking about) involving JD Hall and the Pulpiteers leading the pack (Pulpiteers are followers of Pulpit and Pen). You can read more about the #the15 Twitter hashtag in Bob Allen’s article, Twitter post sparks hashtag war with LifeWay, SBC elite.

The point is that Hall and those who have joined in the #the15 hashtag are rightly calling out LifeWay (a branch of Southern Baptist Convention) for selling heretical books and asking them to remove questionable material. Many people have joined the #the15 bandwagon and sadly, some of it has been contentious. (Update: please be sure to read my comment below Larry’s. I do not appreciate the methodology employed by this group in going after LifeWay and may report on that aspect later.)

While the Pulpit and Pen groupies have been calling out LifeWay for selling bad books, I sure hope Hall applies the same criteria for his new Voices in the Wilderness radio programming. The examples I provided of Kevin Swanson’s talk on embedded fetuses in wombs and Miano’s teaching that women should not read Scripture in front of men are not good examples of faithful theology and faithful preaching – they are men’s ideologies just like the very bad ideologies #the15 are publicly calling out on Twitter.

276 comments on “JD Hall of Pulpit and Pen Launches Voice in the Wilderness Radio

  1. “While I know that, it boils down to being like Adam and Eve before the fall. Children, ignorant, free spirited, not knowing good or evil.”

    I look at it a bit differently. God’s plan was for them to grow in wisdom with Him as their guide. Eating from the Tree of the “knowledge” of good and evil sped up that process before they were wise and mature. And analogy would be like 5 year olds running around in 25 year old bodies and suddenly realizing they were naked. I think it is God’s intention we grow in maturity. I don’t think it was that they would ever know good and evil but that God wanted to share His wisdom and be in communion with them. (After all, evil did exist at the time)

    I see wisdom as a theme all through scripture. God as our King, our guide, etc. Now it is the Holy Spirit.

    Just another view. When we are told to be like children in the NT, I want to know how children were viewed in that time. I think we miss the point. Innocent, blameless

    Like

  2. “You see his online presence”

    And it speaks volumes. In fact, we get to see a side of him that, apparently, even his own congregation is unaware of. A side that is so hurtful that he had to apologize to his own church for the harm it caused.

    Like

  3. No “pre judging” here, Paul. The only thing you are trying to do is convince us s he is a different person ‘in person’ than online. That is even worse.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Lydia,

    2 Corinthians 4:18
    While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

    According to Jesus, we are supposed to look up, not out.

    Looking up, Evil doesn’t exist in heaven. What wisdom, justice, maturity, etc., will we need in heaven? Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is such as children. There is nothing that will get in the way of communion.

    Jesus asked a simple question of Adam and Eve. That question was, “Who told you that you were naked?”

    Now, why would God ask them that? God never told them that they were naked.

    Set that word naked aside for a minute, because spiritually all that means is the word “shame”. Being naked, they had no shame. They were naked before the Lord, without guilt of anything, because no one told them about being mature. But once they knew that they were naked, they were in shame. Shame shows guilt, not because they ate of the tree of knowledge. It is because they got knowledge, and God didn’t give them that knowledge.

    Satan wanted them to get knowledge. That tree gave them knowledge that God didn’t want them to have.

    So, grow in maturity? I’m not so sure. For such is the kingdom of heaven…children. No evil. No thoughts of evil. No temptation to do evil. No knowledge of evil. That, to me, sounds like he wants children to be ignorant of evil, not knowing evil. When we are adults, we know evil. Being an adult sucks.

    Do you remember what it was like being care free?

    There is no hierarchy, as we know it in our wisdom of heaven. What’s his is ours. He sits on his Fathers Throne, and we will sit on His throne. It’s called paradise. We won’t be weeding the garden, building houses, or even trying to figure out why our computer won’t boot up. We won’t need an airplane, or car to travel.

    That, to me, is wisdom. But, in the carnal life that we live in, we as adults need carnal wisdom.

    Look up, not out. All of those things I said above is the wisdom that I believe that God wants us to learn from the Bible. He wants us to learn how to be a child. His child.

    2 Corinthians 4:18
    While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

    Ed

    Like

  5. Paul,

    Seems to me that you are putting blinders on, singing “la la la la la” while covering your ears.

    As Julie Anne notes, there is a lot of “evidence” to back up what Julie Anne states, of what you say that he has no time for. So, the evidence does not back up your insinuation that he doesn’t have the time.

    And, I might add, my questions are legit, and genuine, for which you just seem to skip over mine. I interpret that as a badge of honor for my self, tho, not as a statement that you just don’t care to answer me, due to _____________.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Paul Joseph, perhaps you are assuming more on my side. I spent a few hours (on a couple of occasions) talking on the phone with him. We’ve correspnded on Twitter and email. I asked him a lot of questions. I suspect most of his church members have no clue how much time it takes to do what he does online.

    I’ll bet a lot of my readers have no idea how much time I take behind the scenes and on social media. And he’s a busy pastor and husband/father.

    Like

  7. Lydia,
    I would not call taking time to see true repentance (still waiting to see it in the X) or wanting justice served for a child molester warm and fuzzy ever and if they are let out I am still very uncomfortable with them anywhere near a child. That is not where I come from at all. I speak out about pedophiles with what I should have–anger. If we are not angry about pedophilia then we become part of the problem. Once again we have different terminology for what we are feeling and trying to produce. No we do not sin level. We may all be level at the cross, but we are not level in sin in this world. There is a huge difference.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Lydia,
    You had said:
    “The Warm and fuzzy misunderstanding is why so many people helped rehab JD Hall so quick thinking his PR apology was “repentance”.”

    My response:
    I think that you and I are discussing two different “warm and fuzzies” here. My warm and fuzzy is about an affectionate God that gracealone1 doesn’t believe in.

    Your warm and fuzzy is about a rehabbed sinner, or the lack thereof.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Julie,
    I apologize if I am assuming something about you that is untrue, I am not intending to. I am aware of the chats that you have had and have probably followed most, if not all of your twitter exchanges together, and I realize that you know more about him than most other online critics. The primary point I was trying to make isn’t that he spends more time doing it than his congregants realize, which is probably very true. The point I was trying unsuccessfully to make is that I think people online assume he spends a lot more time doing it than what he does. The impression I have received from most people online, and forgive me if I am wrong, is that they think he spends 90% of his time online and 10% of his time as a pastor and husband/father which is far from the truth.

    Ed,
    If you indeed had a sincere question somewhere in there that I missed, I apologize. To tell you the truth, I lightly skim some of the more recent posts before I comment to see if there is something pertinent to me, and if it is too long, too far back in the comments, or doesn’t seem to be directed at me, I’ve been ignoring them. Like I said, I’m busy, so I pop in when I have a minute and glance at the most recent comments to see if there is anything I should respond to, if not, I leave again.
    The only things I had seen were you answering your own loaded question and then awarding yourself a badge of some kind for doing so. If that was all, then congrats to you, if not, sorry for missing it.

    Like

  10. Paul,

    Loaded question? No, Paul, my questions are simple. Seems like what you are trying to convey about both you and JD, including your pew sitters, is that all of you are so busy that you have no time to get online, and then there are congregants that wouldn’t know how to get online unless they took a college course. Busy, busy, busy, no time in life to understand what their preacher is doing outside of feeding the poor and writing sermons.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  11. Thank you Ed, you said that much better than I did. My warm and fuzzy is towards Christ, not abusive clergy, pedophiles and other unrepentant sinners.

    Liked by 2 people

  12. The impression I have received from most people online, and forgive me if I am wrong, is that they think he spends 90% of his time online and 10% of his time as a pastor and husband/father which is far from the truth.

    I’m not sure how much time people think he spends on time vs church, but I have a hunch he spends more time online than you and most of his congregants think. It would be difficult to add up the time just as it would be difficult for me to add up my time. I was checking in with my blog/e-mail in between classes, while at Costco, etc. With smart phones, one can easily multi-task.

    I do believe, however, that he also spends a fair amount of time pastoring . . . and let’s not forget he enjoys hunting 🙂

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Brenda, thank you for that.

    When I made the comment prior to that, in regards to the Romans 7 people, that warm and fuzzy is being accused of those who struggle with sin, equating it to cheap grace, not saved, etc.

    But you know what? I do not know ANY Romans 7 people that feel that way, and guess what, I know a lot of Romans 7 people. Drug addicts that do not want to do drugs, but wind up doing them anyway. And the actions, sins, that it takes for them to do those drugs, too, such as stealing, lying, etc. They are accused of the Holier Than Thou people by using the phrase “Cheap Grace” and “Warm and Fuzzy”.

    Romans 7 people have the blessed assurance, and that indeed is a warm and fuzzy “feeling” that they should have, NOT equated to cheap grace.

    So, I don’t know how, or why Romans 7 people are lumped into the same category of the term “cheap grace” equating that to the phrase “warm and fuzzy”.

    The holier than thou people tell us, “They just said the prayer”. Spend some time with drug addicts, and you will see that stumbling is a part of the process until the day that we die.

    We know that JD is not struggling with sin. He justifies his sins, thinking that what he did was indeed righteous. JD is not a Romans 7 person.

    Ed

    Like

  14. Julie,
    He does indeed enjoy his hunting when he can. Which is a passion we do not share. If you have ever heard him occasionally on his show mention his vegan/vegetarian friend that has little in common with him outside of the love of Christ, that would be me.
    I have no doubt whatsoever that he spends more time than what the congregants realize. What they do know is that they are never neglected on account of it. On multiple occasions he has taken a break or hiatus from his show/blogging as soon as he started to realize that it was taking too much of his time. He is also continually delegating more and more or his show/blog responsibilities to other contributors.

    Ed,
    It seems like every time you mention my church, you try to insult us more and more. I said “we’re not extremely tech-savvy” you said “ignorant of today’s technology” and “wouldn’t know how to get online unless they took a college course”. Please watch the ad-hominems, they generally reveal a lot about the user.
    I’m not trying to use busyness as an excuse for anything (outside of my lethargy in responding). And no, not everyone in the congregation cares to stick their nose into the pastor’s business when he is not being a pastor. I’m as informed as I am because I carry a smartphone and grew up on the internet which keeps me posted while working 70-80 hours a week.

    Like

  15. BTDT said: “I tried looking for Hall’s age when the fallout after Braxton’s suicide took place. I never did find it. For certain he’s well past the age of majority. Far too old to suggest that Braxton contact him privately to continue the discussion. (That really bothered me. You don’t initiate a “secret” relationship with someone else’s child with good intentions.)”
    You are so right. That went beyond foolish; it even went beyond reckless. It was well into serious creeper territory. Makes me very, very nervous about his other interactions with young people.

    Like

  16. Paul,

    You are not answering my questions. You are only making comments about my questions. Nice deflections.

    Basically, what I am getting is that no one really cares what his online activity is, just as long as their, the congregants, needs are met.

    That is my point. No one cares. Why?

    Ed

    Like

  17. Ed, you said: “We know that JD is not struggling with sin. He justifies his sins, thinking that what he did was indeed righteous”. I see the same thing. The man just plain reeks of self-justification.

    Liked by 1 person

  18. “Corinthians 4:18
    While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

    According to Jesus, we are supposed to look up, not out.

    Looking up, Evil doesn’t exist in heaven. What wisdom, justice, maturity, etc., will we need in heaven? Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is such as children. There is nothing that will get in the way of communion.”

    Ed, we obviously disagree on what these things mean and how to read them within their context. I also read Genesis very differently than you seem to. I believe evil already existed and had they stuck with God, He would have guided them on dealing with it. I believe we will spend eternity on a redeemed and joined heaven/earth. God is not going to totally destroy His creation, it will be redeemed. I think we will do very productive things.

    AS to looking up, not out. I believe we are to do both here and now. We have to look “out” in order to protect the innocent and help those who are suffering. We are to live as much as the kingdom as we can and reflect Christ back out. I believe that what we do here and now either will or will not transfer to the redeemed earth. That should give us pause. Looking “up” only is what the Monks attempted to do with their isolationism.

    Paul also says in 1 Corin that we would have to leave the world not to deal with evil. Even Jesus said be wise as serpents and innocent a doves. I at a loss as to why growing in maturity is a bad thing for believers. It is a constant theme for Israel and in the NT. When we are told to be perfect like our heavenly Father is perfect it is better translated as mature, fully developed. The child metaphor has been sadly misunderstood. It is about being blameless and innocent of wrong doing. It is not about being ignorant. And remember, there are many children throughout history who did not live carefree lives and would not relate to that at all. Even in the 1st Century when it was worse. .

    Like

  19. “^^That’s literally a prejudgment^^ Just sayin’”

    And that is a “prejudgment”, too.

    See, Paul, I can play this all day but won’t. I know how your band of brothers operate and think. Why not use the same techniques on me you use for JD? You don’t know me. Perhaps I am a great woman of God off this blog “according to your definition of such things”. As if JD is hiding some godly persona from us online.

    You are trying to convince us JD’s long time online persona does not count because you say so and are doing the PR thing here. You want to try and convince us of what? We did not read what we read from him for years? I thought the PR tactic was that he changed? But he is right back at it. And I agree with JA when it comes to online…..you seem to have no idea how much time it really does take to do what he does online. Perhaps you could be a better steward of your money you give to help pay such things.

    Here is the deal because you sit “under” JD: You are being taught to think like he does. That tells me all I need to know.

    Like

  20. Lydia,

    Yes, Lydia, we definitely see things differently. Big time. Big Big time.

    The here and now stuff isn’t gonna matter when we are dead.

    Evil did exist, but Adam and Eve had no clue about any evil until they got knowledge.

    Knowledge of Good and Evil is what matters.

    Deuteronomy 1:39
    And the little ones that you said would be taken captive, your children who do not yet know good from bad—they will enter the land. I will give it to them and they will take possession of it.

    Now, the way I see that verse is twofold.
    1. Carnal, which is what you care about, the historical, the here and now stuff
    2. Spiritual, which is what I concern myself with. The next life.

    Spiritual, those with no knowledge of good and evil get to heaven. Paradise. The Garden of Eden.

    To expound on that, babies that die, go to heaven.

    Notice that they had no clue of the knowledge of good and evil. And that was the name of that tree in the garden.

    Crossing the Jordan River is our death date to the promised land.

    All in all, I could care less about the here and now. But, I live in the here and now, so I need to concern myself with it. But that is not the focus. And it shouldn’t be yours, either.

    Justice isn’t gonna matter when you are dead. Justice will come, with, or without you.

    Ed

    Like

  21. Lydia,

    I noticed that I quoted the NIV of Deu 1:39. Here is the KJV

    Deu 1:39
    Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    Notice the words, “No Knowledge between good and evil”

    Ed

    Like

  22. Paul Joseph,
    Your pastor represents your church. Although, I believe he deserves a personal life with his family, HE REPRESENTS YOUR CHURCH in a big way. The congregation should know him well. If they don’t, then perhaps your church is too large for him to handle. His tweets and radio show do not benefit the church. One person cannot do it all successfully.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Lydia,

    Colossians 3:2
    Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

    I do not believe in a “redeemed” earth. I believe in a New earth that comes down from heaven, a place outside of our universe . The heavens (universe) will roll up as a scroll.

    In the resurrection, we, as spirits, which is invisible, will get a new body that is visible. I believe that to be the same with the New Earth, not redeemed earth.

    I see 1 Corinthians 15 explain these things about the word “body”. It isn’t just talking creatures body.

    Ed

    Like

  24. “All in all, I could care less about the here and now. But, I live in the here and now, so I need to concern myself with it. But that is not the focus.And it shouldn’t be yours, either.

    Justice isn’t gonna matter when you are dead. Justice will come, with, or with”

    IMO, It matters greatly to God here and now because it is about who were are in Him. What we do with what we know. If eternal life is the focus then what we do here and now is important to our eternal life. We are not justified to do whatever we want. We are to be the light of the world. Not ignore injustice and evil. We are to reflect Christ back out into the world and live as much as the kingdom now as we can. If everyone had taken that view, there would still be a state church, monarchies, slavery, etc. While there is still so much evil there are also very good things because people sought to change them. Would you tell the raped woman not to seek justice because it does not matter here and now?

    I don’t mind disagreeing because I think such convos sharpen us. but please don’t tell me what should or should not be my concerns or focus.

    Like

  25. Lydia,

    You had asked me:
    “Would you tell the raped woman not to seek justice because it does not matter here and now”

    I already spoke that since we are in the here and now, carnally, we need to deal with it.

    However, that is not supposed to be our primary focus. All of this here and now stuff is a spiritual reflection of the bigger picture. God vs. Satan. It isn’t about us. It’s about Satan wanting to drag as many people with him to his final destination. Hence, the term “spiritual warfare”.

    Justice will not escape God. There is a white throne Judgment. This life is just a vapor. There is nothing new under the sun.

    God is the judge. The thief on the cross was rightfully judged to be on that cross. It seems to me that it is the thief that you want on that cross. And you wouldn’t be wrong about it. He deserved to be there. And he knew it, as well. He got justice.

    But you know what? He made it to heaven. So, all of the justice in the world for him didn’t really matter. What mattered was the final destination. Jesus is the judge, not us.

    We definitely have a different opinion on the phrase “Kingdom now” stuff, that’s for sure. Yes, we are to reflect Christ. But we are not to be Christ. He is judge. Not us. We spread the gospel. We mete out carnal justice, not spiritual justice. We put the thief on the cross, rightfully so, but Jesus took that thief to heaven. Why?

    Ed

    Like

  26. Julie,
    I’m not sure whether or not I consider myself a pulpiteer. I’ve never really done any of their pulpiteer things. These comments are probably the closest I have ever come to it. I don’t really like arguing with people, and I would definitely say that there are some pulpiteers that do too much of that. Being that none of them are perfect, and this is the internet, it’s kind of prone to happen. As is evident here with some of the fights that people are trying to pick. I guess I just have a little bit too much of the “peace, love, and happiness” vegan fluff still in me. In general, I try to treat people online the same way I do in person. I don’t walk around looking for fights or pick arguments with people with whom I know I disagree.

    I stumbled across this article somehow, I don’t even remember, but noticed that a couple untrue things were said in the comments or a question was asked and I wanted to help clarify. I respect that you have taken the time to communicate with JD, and I don’t know if it is because of that, but you seem to be the most level-headed one here. I realize that you still have your issues with him and disagree about a lot of things, but you are still able to be civil, thanks for that.

    Lydia,
    It wasn’t a pre-judgement that I made, it was in fact just a straight judgement based on what you had just said. That aside, I’m not trying to tell you that he is a different person online than in-person. Obviously he talks to people who are not members of our church differently than he talk to members. As he should. I’m a teacher, but I don’t talk to everyone as though they were one of my students, but I will still advocate for truth, and correct their logic and grammatical errors (at times).

    He is a Pastor to his church, yes, but even when he is not with one of the members, he still loves Christ and hates sin. Within a Biblical church, private sin can be, and is, addressed privately. Sin within the public/social media realm is addressed publicly or on social media. While a loving and gentle rebuke may work with a church member, large entities or evangelical celebrities ignore them. Which forces those desiring to see repentance to make a little more noise. In both instances sin is rebuked and repentance is sought, the difference is based on how the sin is committed and how much it is trying to be swept under the rug. I understand that you don’t approve of his methods, and I would never try to say that he has been sinless in them. He has been rebuked by his fellow elders, deacons, and church members, all of which he takes very seriously, and when he is found to be in sin, he repents. Many people here seem very cold and are quick with the name calling and arguing, but that doesn’t necessarily make it sinful (although name-calling usually is, no matter which side does it).

    Like

  27. Lydia,

    Here is a scenario for you:

    An atheist woman gets raped. The rapist is caught, sent to jail, went to trial, found guilty, sent to prison for the rest of his life.

    Justice served. Rapist gets saved while serving time.

    But, what is the final destination of the atheist woman?

    Carnal justice served. Rightfully so.

    What is the outcome of the spiritual justice? Is that fair?

    Ed

    Like

  28. Lydia and Ed, im afraid people who are wanting to follow the JD thread are not going to want to wade through your theological debate. Do you want me to create a thread to carry it on there?

    Like

  29. Lydia,
    It wasn’t a pre-judgement that I made, it was in fact just a straight judgement based on what you had just said. ”

    Bingo. That is the exact standard I have used for JD and his online communication and behavior over the last few years. Lots of it, too. You judged me based on one blog thread.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. “Did we lose Gracealone?”

    I don’t know. His “tone” is pretty much the same on other forums. The moderator on SBCVoices threatened to ban him. One of the other commenters who shares his theological views called him an “embarrassment.” I’m afraid any dialogue with him might be impossible.

    Like

  31. JA: Gracealone may have tired of being referred to by various modifications of his or her user name.

    Paul Joseph: Do you think Hall had some pastoral authority over Braxton Caner?
    What is your view of an adult male carrying on a conversation with someone else’s child on the internet? Does it make a difference if the conversation is secret or kept from the parents?

    Like

  32. Julie,
    I can’t confirm it with certainty that they gave him a green light, so to speak, but I do know that they are completely aware of it, and that he would not be online if they had decided against it. JD has a strong respect for the elder-led system, and will absolutely submit himself to their decisions, even if he is opposed to them.

    Keith,
    I do not believe he does, nor did he ever believe so. He has admitted that it was an unwise decision. My view on Braxton is going to differ from most. I work as a teacher, and I’ve worked with many 15-16 year-olds. I do not see them as these little children that so many people are claiming them to be. They work jobs, drive cars, commit themselves to long-term relationships, think for themselves, and are capable of making their own logical decisions. Possibly uneducated, unwise, or immature young adults? Yes. Little children? No. If it had been an 8 or 10 year-old, I would have absolutely had a problem with it. And I am extremely aware of the dangers that the internet poses to young children, but I see a lot of people intentionally reading misinformation into the event. No rational thinking person that is aware of what JD had been doing actually believes JD wanted to “have a relationship” with the young man. He chose an unwise way of trying to get a little more info on Ergun, and he regrets that. Unwise? Absolutely. Sinful? No.
    His sin wasn’t in the action but that he wasn’t doing it out of a love for Ergun, which he has admitted and repented of. He lost sight of that in the midst of every thing which is why he dropped it and has left it alone.

    Like

  33. These questions may have already been addressed here and I missed them for sure. So with that said, my questions are, “As a parent, would any of us find it appropriate and acceptable, let alone godly in any form, for a pastor of God’s Anointed Word, to address our children in such a fashion via the internet?” Especially if our child is struggling with pain and suffering from the cares of this world?

    Would Mr. Hall’s approach be acceptable according to our standards for our own households?

    Does Mr. Hall’s approach in confronting children via the internet public forum bring Honor and Glory to our King, JESUS? And is he above reproach? And who exactly is playing the role of God, the Holy Spirit, in this sad affair of this earthly life, man or HIM?

    And are not all of us accountable before a Holy and Righteous God?

    Julie Anne, seven children…..wow….I have great respect for you and am humbled all of a sudden! God Bless You!

    Like

  34. Julie Anne, seven children…..wow….I have great respect for you and

    am humbled all of a sudden! God Bless You!

    It just means my bathroom/fridge/house is messier/louder and probably more chaotic than yours. No big deal. 🙂 Currently 1 has left the coop, another is leaving today back to school, another lives at home and is a full-time college student and so he is pretty much either at school, work, or in his room studying, so that leaves 2 high schoolers, 1 middle schooler, 1 in elementary school. So, we’re a pretty normal family now, except for the fact that they are tall boys and consume 1 cow a day with their eating habits. 🙂

    Like

  35. I can’t confirm it with certainty that they gave him a green light, so to speak, but I do know that they are completely aware of it, and that he would not be online if they had decided against it. JD has a strong respect for the elder-led system, and will absolutely submit himself to their decisions, even if he is opposed to them.

    You confirmed what I heard from JD – that the elders are genuinely trying to do their job. And that’s good. However, knowing what I know regarding the time involvement in blogging/Twittering/private forums (I don’t have experience with radio, so I can only imagine), podcasting, I’m not convinced your elders have a clue as to the extent of his social media involvement and time involved. Something is taking a hit, trust me on that, whether it’s family time or church time.

    Liked by 2 people

  36. JA: Gracealone may have tired of being referred to by various modifications of his or her user name.

    Keith, I saw one comment like that (may have missed others as I was away playing over the weekend and it may have slipped by), but I, too, am uncomfortable with modifying people’s names here. I think we can do better. It discredits us if we resort to that kind of thing.

    Liked by 1 person

  37. No rational thinking person that is aware of what JD had been doing actually believes JD wanted to “have a relationship” with the young man. He chose an unwise way of trying to get a little more info on Ergun, and he regrets that. Unwise? Absolutely. Sinful? No.
    His sin wasn’t in the action but that he wasn’t doing it out of a love for Ergun, which he has admitted and repented of. He lost sight of that in the midst of every thing which is why he dropped it and has left it alone.

    I think you contradicted yourself, JP. You said he didn’t sin by going after Braxton, but did sin because it wasn’t out of a love for Ergun. Sooooo . . . . .he sinned by going after Braxton because it wasn’t out of love for Ergun, right?

    Liked by 2 people

  38. Paul Joseph: His sin was in usurping the the natural order instituted by God, wherein the parents have authority over the children, not some third party who was “trying to get a little more info” on the child’s father.

    Liked by 1 person

  39. I work as a teacher, and I’ve worked with many 15-16 year-olds. I do not see them as these little children that so many people are claiming them to be. They work jobs, drive cars, commit themselves to long-term relationships, think for themselves, and are capable of making their own logical decisions. Possibly uneducated, unwise, or immature young adults? Yes. Little children?

    For the last 7 years, I have worked as a volunteer at local public high schools. While my primary job is piano accompanist, much of it turns into being a mentor and I have the opportunity to get personal with some kids. There’s a difference in how I do it and the way JD did it. He had no relationship with Braxton. I have a relationship with the kids I work with. If I see them making bad decisions, I will question them on it in a loving way because I care about them and they know I care. If JD had no relationship with Braxton, no foundational respect going on, his heart intent was wrong. He was using Braxton to further his negativity campaign against Ergun. He used Braxton to publicly point out what a bad father Ergun was (because Ergun was allowing his kid to post pictures of his girlfriend in “immodest” bikini, using bad language).

    Braxton knew clearly that JD was going after his dad. It’s already difficult enough being a pastor’s kid, but imagine finding out that your dad is hated among some (yes, hate, because the methods employed and behaviors shown by the Pulpiteers were hateful, not loving). That put a lot of unnecessary pressure on Braxton. Kids cannot just separate that kind of thing from their lives. They have to have a level of trust and respect for their parents. He was put on the defensive seat for his dad and no kid should have to do that. So when people say that JD is not responsible for his suicide, there’s no way one can know that to say for certain. I think JDs behavior certainly could have contributed to the already challenging life Braxton had because of the out-lash against his father.

    Liked by 2 people

  40. Paul Joseph,

    Your honesty and loyalty toward JD is sincere. You embrace JD’s brand of Theology and the way he delivers his message and you are exercising your “free will” to be involved in his church.

    I don’t agree with his methodology whereas you can and do.

    When JD revealed to me that he repetitively reminds his congregation 2 to 3 times every service of their unworthiness I find JD tipping the scales in favor a very heavy-handed ministry based on more of a Law, Sin, Self and Works Centered Ministry rather than Christ Centered.

    Now we aren’t all clones, that type of methodology is something you embrace or need. I grew up Catholic and they too surround more time in a repetitive poems and repetitively focusing on unworthiness, the law, sin, works, self, which is one of the reasons why I stopped being a Catholic and became a Baptist which offered more balance and of unworthiness and redemption.

    The people in our Baptist church understand how unworthy we are without Christ, We will never lose site of that unworthiness so we don’t “strictly” focus on just that part of scriptures 2 to 3 times a service 52 weeks a year. If we did we would only need to reference the Book of TULIP and not the Bible.

    I can imagine that with JD’s blunt style that you will never lose site of being unworthy even if he made this proclamation once a month. (or even once a year) But that would go against his repetitive nature and cause him to come up with more material rather than being centered within the perimeters of TULIP.

    This thread’s focus, is on the flaw and sin of his heavy-handedness that he exposed on his blog Pulpit and Pen and the tragic and simultaneous tragedy that occurred during his toxic crusade.

    I started to warn him repeatedly that he made his heavy-handed message loud and clear long before the Caner tragedy occurred.

    Some points he sometimes may have had some merit. But his relentless crusade by all appearances lacked love and faith because instead of sharing those burdens with the the Holy Spirit he continue to take matters on his own going too far.

    “Canerize the Canerization” is term he invented in his blog and for the life of me i’m failing to identify “Love” or “tough Love” toward Dr. Caner in JD’s heart.

    Like

  41. Julie,
    Sorry for being unclear. What I meant to convey is that his comments weren’t sinful, his intentions were. If that makes sense.

    Like

  42. Mark – I wonder if JD could have a different persona at his own church than the one portrayed online. I know it happens all the time with people online. For the record, people tell me that I am exactly the same online as in person. What you see is what you get. I’m the same sometimes shockingly blunt person IRL. But others feel more of a freedom behind their computer screen to “let their hair down” in ways they don’t do in person.

    When I talked with JD, he was a softer, kinder, gentler man than I see in his comments. Was that because he was talking directly to me as a woman? I don’t know. He invited me to stop by if I’m ever in Montana and I absolutely would do so. I liked the JD I heard on the phone. I liked the JD I heard when he talked about his wife, his church, the ministries at his church. Paul Joseph seems like a very likable guy. He seems to be talking about the JD I heard on the phone.

    For the record, the reason I originally reached out to JD was because of a nasty Twitter exchange we had privately the year before. I felt his comments were rude to me. After his public apology with the Braxton incident, he asked people to contact people to “preach to him” – I think those were his words. I thought, what have I got to lose? I was angry that a pastor would treat me the way he did and so I contacted him privately. He took care of it graciously when we communicated.

    Liked by 1 person

  43. “His sin was in usurping the the natural order instituted by God, wherein the parents have authority over the children, not some third party who was “trying to get a little more info” on the child’s father.”

    I’m with Keith on this one. 15-year-olds may behave like adults in many ways, but they are not completely developed emotionally.(And boys tend to lag behind girls in maturity.) There’s a reason why they are still under parental guardianship at that age. They are bridging that gap between childhood and adulthood. (I, personally, remember it as a VERY difficult age.)

    It’s understood that a teacher is going to have some interaction with a student. A parent has given permission for school employees to educate his/her child. Hall had no such permission to interact with Braxton– a minor. Whether anyone thinks it was innocent or not, it’s entirely inappropriate, period.

    Liked by 2 people

  44. Julie Anne,

    I could see the sincerity in Paul Joesph.

    My Pastor was a like-able guy as well until I started asking questions about his stealth doctrine.

    Sometimes like-able guys embrace certain strongholds and methodologies that exposes their sin nature which is why things get out of hand. Which also effects their like-ability.

    Pulpit and Pen and Twitter exposed the darker side of JD and his Puppets,

    Don’t get me wrong I’m glad that certain issues are resolved and have become more civilized between you and JD.

    But I witnessed a certain tweet he targeted you when he referred you as a “scornful woman” during the height of his cyber-rampage.

    Even then I warned him that sparring with other Christians in Cyber space is not good and lacked love it was heard with deaf ears and actually he and the puppets accelerated their cyber attacks. .

    Did you and JD exchange civilized dialogue while he was relentlessly using his blog to pursuing his targeted “victims” or after the fact?

    Who knows what JD would be doing if there were no casualties during what amounts to a simultaneous exchange with Braxton.

    I have often wondered how much (if any) duress JD’s exchange put on Braxton and his father, before Braxton lost hope.

    I’m sure Dr. Caner dealing with relentless write-ups from Pulpit was cumbersome to the Caner Family. Enough for the young Caner to defend his father.
    With Dr. Caner seeing his son going toe to toe with JD must have exacerbated more stress to that family that Pulpit partially ignited. Which included Puplic humiliation to the whole Caner Family.

    What would be nice is if JD and his Puppets stopped Pulpit/Radio/and Cyber stuff and go back to their roots. It sound like JD’s congregation likes him and that should make him content.

    Like

  45. Mark, he and I interacted shortly after my blog post about his children’s Arminian nightmare book and then only after his public apology. I still have screenshots of some of his nasty tweets and was just about to publish a lengthy post on it the same time he repented.

    Like

  46. Paul Joseph

    You write @ JANUARY 5, 2015 @ 11:29 AM…
    That you know the qualifications for elder/overseer…

    “I assure you that I know the qualifications of an elder as outlined in the Bible, I’ve gone through them one at a time, much like our Church does when adding an additional elder or if there a possible cause of concern.”

    And, then you write to Julie Anne @ JANUARY 6, 2015 @ 9:25 AM…
    That JD Halls intentions with young Braxton Caner were sinful.

    “What I meant to convey is that
    his comments weren’t sinful, his intentions were.”

    And JD Hall admitted this sin in his “Public Confession.”
    “It was sinful for me to challenge him publicly like that.”

    And JD Hall admitted this sin in his “Public Confession.”
    “I’ve relied too much on my own strength
    and not solely on the Spirit
    in my earnest desire to see justice prevail.
    That’s sin, even if the cause is right. I confess it.”

    And JD said brothers said this in his “Public Confession.”
    “They saw me reveal and speak truth,
    but sometimes be hard and speak too harshly.”
    ———

    Why did the your elder/overseers NOT correct, stop, JD Hall?
    If they knew what he was doing, being “hard and harsh,” on the internet?
    When someone does NOT report known Child Abuse…
    Are they NOT guilty of a crime? For NOT stopping it? NOT reporting it?
    Are your elsers NOT guilty for allowing his harshness to continue?
    ———-

    So, how do “you” answer before God…
    Is JD Hall, Blameless? Above Reproach? Without Reproach?

    Titus 1:5-8 KJV
    5 …ordain elders in every city…
    6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
    having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
    not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
    8 a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;

    Liked by 1 person

  47. Paul Joseph

    Here is a closer look at just three qualifications for elder/overseer from Titus.
    1 – For a bishop (overseer) “Must Be” *Blameless.* 2 – Just. 3 – Holy.

    Titus 1:5-8 KJV
    5 …ordain elders in every city…
    6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
    having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
    not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
    8 a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;

    1 – That *must be* is the same Greek word. You *must be* born again. Jn 3:7
    *Must Be* – Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
    *Must Be* – Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
    Seems to be a small word but very important. Yes?

    1 – Blameless
    Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
    Blameless, Thayers – cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
    Blameless, Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.

    2 – Just
    Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
    Thayers – righteous, observing divine laws, innocent, faultless, guiltless.

    3 – Holy
    Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
    Thayers – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
    religiously observing every moral obligation.

    Now that’s three tough qualifications for pastor/elder/overseers. Yes?

    How many pastor/elder/overseers today, who honestly examine themselves, seriously considering these three qualifications can see themselves as Blameless, Just and Holy, innocent, without fault, above reproach, undefiled by sin, and thus qualify to be a pastor/elder/overseer? And, if they can see themself as *blameless?* Is that pride? And no longer without fault? 😉

    Which Qualifications, are WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, allowed to Ignore?
    Which Qualifications are NOT important?

    If WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Sheep, His Kings and Priests, His Body…
    Take seriously the many tough Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9…

    The number of Biblically Qualified, pastor/elder/overseers, is quite small.
    😉

    So, how will “you” answer before God… Is JD Hall…
    1 – Blameless? —- (Unaccused? Unreproveable? Blameless?)
    2 – Just? ———— (Righteous? Observing divine laws? Innocent? Guiltless?)
    3 – Holy? ———- (Undefiled by sin? Free from wickedness?)

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

    Liked by 1 person

  48. Paul Joseph

    Personally, I interacted with JD on his blog…
    When he did NOT like the questions asked…
    When he could NOT answer the questions asked…
    He did NOT “Speak Truth.”
    But, he certainly was “hard” and spoke “Too Harshly.”
    I experienced his “Bully Tactics” first hand.

    Here is how he ended the conversation and then turned OFF the comments.
    This was the first of seven paragraphs…

    “This will be the last time I respond to you on this thread. Again, no offense – I don’t like my posts polluted with periphery, irrelevant issues to the title of the post. Furthermore, I can tell (as I’ve already stated) that you have a bizarre strand of sectarian minimalism running through you and are no doubt ostracized from a local fellowship of believers, and therefore, I have no choice but to respond to you as a lost person and not a believer.”
    ———

    Now, I have a list of 17 qualifications between 1 Tim and Titus…
    Here are just 7 that I could NEVER live up to as an elder/overseer.
    Yeah, I was ordained, in leadership. Oy Vey!!! 😦

    5 – vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
    6 – sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
    7 – of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.
    8 – no striker — not quarrelsome, contentious.
    9 – not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
    10 – not self willed — not self pleasing, not arrogant.
    11 – not soon angry — not prone to anger.

    It was a humbling day when I realized I did NOT meet the qualifications…
    I struggled with what to do. Eventually, 3-4 years, I ripped up my papers.
    I figured to be one of His Disciples, His “Servant,” was sufficient. 😉

    So, how will “you” answer before God…
    Does JD Hall, Qualify as an elder/overseer according to just these seven?

    Vigilant? ——————- (Calm in spirit?)
    Sober? ——————— (Self controlled?)
    Of good behavior? ——- (Modest? Unassuming? Reserved?)
    NO striker? —————- (NOT quarrelsome? NOT Contentious.
    NOT a brawler? ———- (Abstaining from fighting?)
    NOT self willed? ——— (NOT self pleasing? NOT arrogant?)
    NOT soon angry? ——- (NOT prone to anger?)

    From my short interaction with JD Hall…
    He has failed to Qualify as an elder/overseer, with these seven…

    But – Will he remove himself? And be an example to God’s Sheep?
    Will your elder/overseers remove him?

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    Liked by 1 person

  49. Oh – And Paul Joseph…

    Maybe, being a friend of JD, you can show him these Qualifications…

    And ask him if he thinks he is qualified to be an elder/overseer…

    And, knowing the other elder/overseers…

    You can show them these qualifcations and ask them personally…

    If they think they are qualified to be an elder/overseer…

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  50. Moderator note: I have made the following comment into a blog post. If you’d like to respond to this comment, please respond on this post.

    Still here———-reading.

    There is a great danger in how the after effects of spiritual abuse is handled. It takes no effort at all to let your emotions fester, to let anger rule your every word (something that seems to be the favorite accusation of those here who do not know the Biblical way to deal with abuse), to let bitterness swell to the point of hatred (some here are getting close), and to turn a deaf ear to the simple commands of the Lord Jesus. Some have fought their way throw this by the means detailed in the Scriptures and others continue their ill-gotten diatribes against those who would point them in the right direction.
    There are many Biblical commands (there’s that pesky word again that few like) that lead in the proper way to deal with, get past and actually forgive those that have been abusers. 1) Thank God for the whole experience, no matter how long the duration or how severe the trauma you were treated to. 2) Did you seriously think that you as a Christian would escape such persecutions as these when your brothers and sisters have suffered far, far worse than we, now and throughout the centuries past? Why should YOU escape? Heads are being removed even today for the testimony of the Savior, but somehow we feel it our right to bemoan our situation to the point of disgusting self pity, meanwhile sucking the life out of those we call upon to feel the same pity as we. Shame on you! Christ suffered the ultimate humiliation, His death on the cross, but yet we seek to justify our complaining of our “situation” rather than praise Him for being counted worthy to suffer for His Name’s sake. Enter the “Warm & Fuzzy” crowd. Warm and fuzzy is completely useless here. In fact, it only does good for the one doling it out and accomplishes zero for the one who has been assaulted. Showing sympathy/empathy is not enough. Feeling sorry for another’s plight helps them how? It would be far more helpful to point such a person to the Scriptures, remind them of the promises of God for His beloved children, get them to seek their Lord and Savior until relief is realized. If your description of the love of God does not go far, far beyond this blasphemous definition of “warm and fuzzy” it is highly likely that that person knows nothing of the love of God found only in Jesus Christ. [the question must be asked here for those in disagreement: did you ever repent of your sins? or was you ‘repentance’ bound up in the words “I repent”? For those who have known what it is to repent the answer is easy: it was probably the most emotional and gut-wrenching thing in their entire life. For those who have gone the deceitful way of easy-believeism it’s usually only a few words said in passing with the perceived or claimed ‘sincerity’ being immaterial]. 3) Ask God for wisdom as to how to handle each persecution. If you walk with Him on a daily basis this will become a no-brainer (did you take up your cross today? if you did, then you should naturally expect to be crucified on it.) There are specific Scriptures that apply to all that I’ve said here and will be happy to cite them if you wish. There is more, but enough for now.

    To allow the bitterness and ensuing hatred that is common to the natural man to control a person means that their persecutor has won the war, they are virtually useless in the service and obedience to the Savior, and things will likely only get worse over time. It results in constant attacks, especially toward those with whom they differ, skewed views of Scripture that accommodate their own specialized heresy, and an unteachable mindset (not unteachable by other men, but by the Holy Spirit). They refuse to humble themselves before the Lord and will get to the point where humility is only for the other guy, they have somehow (in their own mind) grown past the need to be humble before the Creator.

    BTDT, if you had only read a little further you would have seen the real reason for my welcomed dismissal from SBCVoices was the fact that ALL of the commenters (by default, the moderator, too) had ganged up on man from Tennessee. They dog-piled this guy mercilessly over and over again simply because he asked a question that they did not feel was worthy of their consideration. So yes, I jumped in and fired at will. And guess what? I’d do the same for you in a similar situation.

    To set the record straight, I am not a Calvinist (how many definitions are there now?) But I am a firm believer in the Scriptures that came centuries before John Calvin. Also, Calvin was right 100% when it comes to T U L I P. There are hundreds of verses that speak of predestination, election, being chosen, etc. etc. but those of the Arminian heresy dismiss them all in favor of man’s “free-will”. Something that has no part in a man’s salvation whatsoever. “You are saved BY GRACE through FAITH and that NOT OF YOURSELVES it is THE GIFT OF GOD. To state otherwise is to make the Word of God a lie and remembering that JESUS CHRIST IS THE WORD OF GOD one should take great care before they call Him a liar. If a man wants to believe the lie that by an act of his will he will gain salvation, then that man has no need of grace, and if grace is not how you were “saved” then you are still lost.

    Like

  51. “There is a great danger in how the after effects of spiritual abuse is handled. It takes no effort at all to let your emotions fester, to let anger rule your every word (something that seems to be the favorite accusation of those here who do not know the Biblical way to deal with abuse), to let bitterness swell to the point of hatred (some here are getting close), and to turn a deaf ear to the simple commands of the Lord Jesus. Some have fought their way throw this by the means detailed in the Scriptures and others continue their ill-gotten diatribes against those who would point them in the right direction.”

    Note the cult tactics in this. Those who do not respond to spiritual abuse in the way gracealone interprets scripture are the real sinners. You all witnessed this tactic in the SGM scandalabras.

    See, we are “angry” and allowing our “emotions” to fester. Gracealone gets to define anger and improper emotions for us, too! Oh and he gets to decide if we have turned a deaf ear to Jesus’ commands.

    These guys really believe this hogwash for others (not themselves, btw) It is nothing but a deflection tactic that only works with their followers. When they get out of their bubbles it gets harder to sell. As CJ found out the hard way.

    I am still waiting to hear JD’s interpretation of “repentance”. He obviously does not interpret it the same way I do. Oh, I forgot. His “elders”signed off on him so he is repentant.

    Liked by 1 person

  52. “BTDT, if you had only read a little further you would have seen the real reason for my welcomed dismissal from SBCVoices was the fact that ALL of the commenters (by default, the moderator, too) had ganged up on man from Tennessee.”

    Actually, most everyone else was rather cordial.

    http://sbcissues.wordpress.com/2012/12/06/341/ (Just in case anyone is interested. This isn’t relevant to the topic of this post.)

    Like

  53. Paul,

    I agree with everything that A Amos laid out in regards to the qualifications, and I do mean everything.

    Let me say this, Paul, even though you refuse to answer my questions for whatever reason…something about hominy grits, or something. I don’t know how you people in Montana do things, but if you think that it is OK for any adult to contact any UNDERAGE child for ANY reason other than a professional relationship that the parents are involved in, then you people have a screw loose.

    You think that it is OK to contact a 15 year old? Yes, you do. Let me tell you something, Paul. If the same had happened to me at 17, my parents would have called the cops on any freak that thinks that they can overstep the BOUNDARIES of their parental authority. It’s out of line, and why are you defending that?

    You think that usurping the authority of the parent is just dandy as long as the child isn’t, say, 8 years old? JD is lucky that Ergun didn’t take a shotgun to him. My parents would have.

    Going after Ergun publically is fine. Talking to Ergun privately is fine. WARNING your congregation about Ergun is fine. But nothing else is fine, especially usurping the authority of the parents, regardless of what you may think of the parents themselves. That is not your place, nor his.

    And, based on what A Amos Love laid out, JD should be fired, not protected with nice nice words of what a great guy he is. He should be fired, because he not only violated those things, but insists that what he did is justified, but that he just went about it the wrong way.

    The right way would have been to stay out of it, period, which means that if it does not affect your own congregation, leave it alone. Let the blind lead the blind, if you think that they are blind. Besides, Ergun is NOT a Calvinist, and he doesn’t want to be a Calvinist. So, it leaves it to the question, WHY CANER? He doesn’t believe in what you believe in. He doesn’t pastor YOUR church. He is not even in your state.

    So Caner lied. We all get that. But why hammer him when he wants nothing to do with your belief system? I’m not getting that part of it. That is like complaining about Fox News when you don’t even watch it. Ergun must really be a threat to your belief system if you find a need to go after him. What is the threat?

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  54. Like I said Ed, I’m not looking for a fight, which is obviously something we don’t have in common. And being the vegetarian that I am, I don’t care to stand around and see how many times you can beat a dead horse while blindly slinging insults at an entire state. Wow.

    Take care, and congrats again on the badge. Self-righteousness suits you well.

    Like

  55. Paul,

    The other Paul, formerly known as Saul said, “Eat the meat!”

    I don’t care how you interpret my words or A Amos Love’s words. A Amos Love laie it all out. JD Hall does not qualify. It’s plain that you have blinders on singing lalalalala while covering your ears, just like your elders.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  56. “Always be prepared to give an answer…but do this with gentleness and respect.”

    “Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him.”

    gracealone1 – You have major issues with that first one, such issues that I wonder very much whether you understand the second one.

    Liked by 1 person

  57. ” I’m not looking for a fight . . . Take care, and congrats again on the badge. Self-righteousness suits you well.”

    A little contradictory, don’t you think?

    Liked by 1 person

  58. Paul,

    The questions that I ask are the dead horse all because people like you refuse to answer it. You don’t like criticism, huh? My questions are valid. We all want to know the answers to the valid questions, since you are the one representing JD on this blog. But the direction that you take is to circle around the valid questions and brag about what a great guy that he is. I’ve seen this rodeo before, with living horses.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  59. Pingback: Dissecting Gracealone1’s Comment | Spiritual Sounding Board

  60. Sorry I have not had the time to read any posts on here since I last posted, but I skimmed over the most recent post that featured a long comment by GraceAlone1 or whatever his/her screen name is.

    I wanted to clarify that I am neither an Arminian nor a Calvinist, nor do I believe that TULIP is correct – TULIP and Calvinism are largely the same thing.

    If you’re teaching that God does all the electing (as in choosing who gets salvation) and God did not design salvation so that human free will -choice- to play a role in accepting that free gift of salvation, you’re teaching wrong. There’s nothing meritorious in a person choosing Jesus after they’ve been convicted of their sin /need of a Savior by the Holy Spirit.

    Liked by 2 people

  61. Paul Joseph

    I understand you’re busy…
    But – Still waiting for your response.

    Remember, in your first comment on this blog…
    You wrote @ JANUARY 4, 2015 @ 3:38 PM

    “I would love to try and answer a few genuine
    and loving questions about the man if anyone has any.”

    And according to Pulpit and Pen there is nothing more loving than…
    Pointing out someones sin so they can repent and get right with God. Yes?

    This is from “Sin Detector, Part 1” at Pulpit and Pen…

    “Those who keep silent, who don’t want to be called “Sin Detectors” by those who are only willing to detect the sin of being a Sin Detector until their hand is forced, do no favors to those to whose sin they turn a blind eye.”

    http://pulpitandpen.org/2014/03/07/sin-detector-part-1/

    This is from “Sin Detector, Part 2”

    “It is loving to confront a brother or sister who is sinning,
    even if you think the sin is small or insignificant.”

    I think you’ll agree, calling yourself pastor/elder/overseer…
    When you do NOT Qualify to be a pastor/elder/overseer is NOT small.

    According to Pulpit and Pen…
    It is loving to point out to JD Hall he does NOT Qualify…
    ———–

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

    Liked by 1 person

  62. Paul Joseph

    You might have missed this comment @ JANUARY 6, 2015 @ 12:48 PM…
    That was for you to answer about JD Halls qualifications for elder/overseer.

    Here is how the comment about qualifications for elder/overseer ended.
    ——–

    So, how will “you” answer before God… Is JD Hall…
    1 – Blameless? —- (Unaccused? Unreproveable? Blameless?)
    2 – Just? ———— (Righteous? Observing divine laws? Innocent? Guiltless?)
    3 – Holy? ———- (Undefiled by sin? Free from wickedness?)
    ———–

    Wouldn’t JD Hall want to know when he does NOT Qualify?

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    Liked by 1 person

  63. Paul Joseph

    And you might have missed this comment @ JANUARY 6, 2015 @ 12:50 PM…

    Here is how the comment about qualifications for elder/overseer ended.
    ——-

    So, how will “you” answer before God…
    Does JD Hall, Qualify as an elder/overseer according to just these seven?

    Is JD Hall…
    Vigilant? ——————- (Calm in spirit?)
    Sober? ——————— (Self controlled?)
    Of good behavior? ——- (Modest? Unassuming? Reserved?)
    NO striker? —————- (NOT quarrelsome? NOT Contentious.
    NOT a brawler? ———- (Abstaining from fighting?)
    NOT self willed? ——— (NOT self pleasing? NOT arrogant?)
    NOT soon angry? ——- (NOT prone to anger?)

    From my short interaction with JD Hall…
    He has failed to Qualify as an elder/overseer, with these seven…

    But – Will he remove himself? And be an example to God’s Sheep?
    Will your elder/overseers remove him?
    ——–

    Yeah – Tough questions to have to answer…

    And maintain your friendship with JD Hall, and the other elders…

    And maintain some form of integrity for yourself…

    Ps 138:6
    Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
    but the proud he knoweth afar off.

    Ps 40:4
    Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
    and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies

    Liked by 1 person

  64. Chapmaned24 said: “You think that it is OK to contact a 15 year old? Yes, you do. Let me tell you something, Paul. If the same had happened to me at 17, my parents would have called the cops on any freak that thinks that they can overstep the BOUNDARIES of their parental authority. It’s out of line, and why are you defending that?
    You think that usurping the authority of the parent is just dandy as long as the child isn’t, say, 8 years old? JD is lucky that Ergun didn’t take a shotgun to him. My parents would have”.
    I would have taken a shotgun to him myslef.
    And yes, I do believe that there is something seriously wrong, mentally, emotionally, morally & spiritually, with a grown man seeking out “private” contact with a 15 year-old boy. It’s not normal, it’s not natural, & it’s a disgrace to JD’s position as a pastor to even suggest it. He should be ashamed of himslef. If he isn’t (& I see no signs of it), then I would suggest that a lot more parents need to stock up on rocksalt & nails.

    Like

  65. “And yes, I do believe that there is something seriously wrong, mentally, emotionally, morally & spiritually, with a grown man seeking out “private” contact with a 15 year-old boy. It’s not normal, it’s not natural, & it’s a disgrace to JD’s position as a pastor to even suggest it. He should be ashamed of himslef. If he isn’t (& I see no signs of it), then I would suggest that a lot more parents need to stock up on rocksalt & nails.”

    He was using Braxton to get to Caner. Even after all the years of going after Caner. It was not enough. His aim was to cause hurt. There is no other explanation.

    JD has proven he is disqualified to teach anyone anything. The irony is if he worked in a PUBLIC SECULAR school he would have been in HUGE trouble. He would be viewed as unsafe and unhealthy. But a “pastor” gets a pass in his world.

    Like

  66. Lydia and Zooey111,

    “He was using Braxton to get to Caner. Even after all the years of going after Caner. It was not enough. His aim was to cause hurt. There is no other explanation.”

    I agree.

    All I want to know is this: Why Caner? What is so important about Caner that they would concentrate on him with a heavy hand. It doesn’t make sense to me at all. They do not share doctrinal beliefs. JD is a Calvinist, Caner is not.

    Let’s boil this down for a moment. JD has a problem with the SBC. That is NO SECRET. Ahhhh, now we are getting somewhere. It’s the SBC.

    Caner is part of the SBC. Caner is a threat, due to a high position that Caner holds in the SBC, and because Caner does NOT hold the same doctrinal beliefs that Caner does, it pisses JD Hall off, to the highest extent.

    SBC is being infiltrated by the Calvinists, attempting to get the SBC back to their Calvinist roots.

    To me, this isn’t about God at all. It’s all politics in a RELIGIOUS organization, and it certainly has NOTHING to do with a man professing to be a Christian caught lying. That is just the excuse being used. It’s like harassing an ex-girlfriend that wants nothing to do with you.

    And that, I believe, is the truth of the matter.

    But, when I ask Paul about what threat Ergun is, to him, it’s a dead horse issue. It’s all politics, which includes Power and Control Calvinists AGAINST Southern Baptists.

    Caner’s lies…it’s just an excuse being used to discredit the SBC non-Calvinists. So, they hammer Caner, as if it’s gonna make a difference. Not gonna happen. And it ticks JD off.

    Ed

    Like

  67. Carmen S

    Thanks for that article about Lennon @ JANUARY 5, 2015 @ 1:31 PM…
    And the info about the song “Help” I need somebody…
    Sure gives a different, a powerful, understanding of those words…
    I’ve been thinking about it, affected by it, the last couple of days….

    I was one who never really liked the Beatles…
    Could never understand the teenage girls screaming and shaking…
    Why weren’t the girls screaming and shaking over me in the early 60’s… 🙂
    Yeah- I was a teenager then myself…

    And I misunderstood that famous comment by Lennon…
    And went along with the crowd – Oy Vey!!!

    I was touched by this explanation…
    “He was honest enough to say what was happening here is a phenomenom that is way beyond anything we could have ever conceived.”

    Yup – another way to understand what was said.

    “The interviewer asked about the song “Help.” He said, “I wrote “Help” in ’65, and people hailed it as another advance in rock and roll.

    It was the cry of my heart and nobody came to answer.”
    ——-

    Wow – What a statement – What an indictment on Christian-dumb…

    What an indictment on me…

    Had to say – Sorry Lord, for judging this guy Lennon the way I did….

    I’m sure glad you’re a lot smarter then me…

    Thanks again…

    Like

  68. Carmen S

    Now I can listen to “Help”

    And hear Lennon crying out to Jesus…

    Sing this song to Jesus…

    Who wudda thunk it…

    Like

  69. “All I want to know is this: Why Caner? What is so important about Caner that they would concentrate on him with a heavy hand. It doesn’t make sense to me at all. They do not share doctrinal beliefs. JD is a Calvinist, Caner is not.”

    Caner was a very outspoken Free Will guy at Liberty. (I disagreed with him on quite a few other issues) and there was a big brouhaha over some debates with James White. It goes back pretty far.

    There has been a big fight for the hearts and minds of Christian college students by the Reformed movement. There were only a few “names” really speaking out about disagreeing with Calvinism back then and Caner was one of the few. He left Liberty over the lying about being a Muslim charge and pretty much into obscurity at a tiny college. But that was not enough for JD. He had to be totally destroyed.

    I had never been a fan of Caner’s. But the last year or so he has risen in my estimation. He just kept taking JD and his minion’s poison arrows (they would go after Caner’s friends!) even after losing his big job and taking on a college that had lost its accreditation during which he lost his son (JD went after his son!). (Caner got the accreditation back)

    The man has been put through hell. I cannot imagine what JD thinks he has accomplished

    Like

  70. Lydia,

    You had said:
    “There has been a big fight for the hearts and minds of Christian college students by the Reformed movement. ”

    That, to me, is the heart of the matter. Get’em while they are young and dumb before they have a chance to form an opinion of their own.

    Bottom line, it’s all about politics, and Caner is the excuse. Caner is being USED as an excuse. JD’s only concern with Caner is the SBC, and nothing of this has anything to do with wanting Caner to repent. In reality, he could care less about the final destination of Caner’s soul. It’s all about doctrine within the SBC, because both Caner and JD Hall are Baptists with differing doctrines, and JD is ticked off at the SBC.

    Politics. That’s all it is.

    Ed

    Like

  71. Ed,

    That can’t be it.

    I made a similar assertion on Pulpit last Spring.

    I was then swarmed by a bunch of puppets who was trying to pound into my head that Doctrine had nothing to do with it with their relentless Crusade and going so far as mocking his last name.

    Like

  72. Mark,

    “I was then swarmed by a bunch of puppets who was trying to pound into my head that Doctrine had nothing to do with it with their relentless Crusade and going so far as mocking his last name.”

    That’s what they say, but I’m not buying it. They relentlessly state that they want Caner to repent. But I’m not buying it, especially since they do not hold the same doctrinal beliefs.

    Look, Calvinists believe that God is sovereign, right? They believe that the sovereignty of God predestined who believes, and who doesn’t, right?

    Since that is true on both accounts, then they have no reason to go after Caner to repent. If God wants Caner to repent, based on the doctrine of Calvinism, then Caner will repent, and nothing that JD and his puppets demand of Caner matters to a hill of beans. It’s all a show.

    If the puppets and JD really believe their doctrines of grace, then they should step back and let God do his work, instead of playing God.

    If God predestined Caner to lie, then Caner is gonna lie. If God predestined Caner to repent, then Caner will repent. If Caner is saved, it is because God chose Caner to be saved. If Caner is not going to be saved, it is because God chose Caner not to be saved. Nothing that the puppets and JD say or do or demand matters, that is, if they believe in their own doctrines.

    They are playing hypocrites of their own doctrines by demanding something that only God has control of, hence, the sovereignty of God doctrine.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  73. Ed,

    What?

    A simple little harmless “gotcha” moment.

    I kind of wished I laid one of your ending paragraphs you made to me.

    “If God predestined Caner to lie, then Caner is gonna lie. If God predestined Caner to repent, then Caner will repent. If Caner is saved, it is because God chose Caner to be saved. If Caner is not going to be saved, it is because God chose Caner not to be saved. Nothing that the puppets and JD say or do or demand matters, that is, if they believe in their own doctrines”

    I did proclaim of Calvinist threads that God is not the author of Sin.

    Like

  74. Mark,

    Ya, I’m usually better than that, lol.

    Well, I haven’t researched it, but I wonder how the Calvinists swallow that jagged little pill about God not being the author of “confusion”.

    In regards to author of sin, God is the only one who can define what sin is, and he authored the law of Moses, and 1 John 3:4 defines sin as the transgression of the law, and Romans 3 states that the law is the knowledge of sin. So, while God is not a transgressor of the law, I still think that he is the author of the law, which defines sin as transgression of the law. And, what is it that Isaiah 45:7 states? I guess it all depends on what version that you use, but the Hebrew word is the same word used for the English word “evil”. Sin is evil. Conclusion, God is the author of sin.

    However, in Calvinism, since God wrote the play, who is the author of confusion if not God, since he is sovereign? How do they swallow that jagged little pill?

    Ed

    Like

  75. The following link is JD’s reasoning as to why he left the SBC.
    http://pulpitandpen.org/2013/02/28/why-ive-left-the-convention/

    Now, after reading that, equate that to a man that served divorce papers to his wife. Once divorced, both parties were supposed to move on in their respective opposite directions in life. Much of the time, the divorce is amicable.

    But not always. Sometimes the ex-husband wants to seek REVENGE for unresolved issues from the marriage. The ex-husband then wants to resolve an issue that the ex-wife has already moved on from. But the ex-husband just can’t seem to LET IT GO.

    So…

    The ex-wife continues to get unsolicited harassing phone calls, emails, and visits, even though the marriage was dissolved in a court of law. The ex-husband is committed to getting his revenge, even to the point of death. He demands that his ex-wife _______________________ (Fill in the blank), calls her all sorts of 4 letter expletives.

    If I was the e-wife, I would say to the ex-husband that the union is over a$$h0le. Get over it. Move on. Let it go. Leave me alone, and then get a restraining order, or have my new husband go and kick his a$$ to kingdom come.

    Now, Does JD Hall sound like a sane person to anyone here?

    Now, I’ve heard Calvinists use the word “bitter” towards women. Does it sound like JD is bitter?

    It’s people like him that remind me of those who “GO POSTAL”.

    Like I’ve told Paul, I’ve seen this rodeo before in life. Nothing is new under the sun.

    Is JD really the nice guy that Paul portrays him to be? Is JD really the polite person that he exhibited himself to be with Julie Anne in a phone call? Or, was that all just an act? Is Paul being his PR representative, while JD secretly another personality in his bunker?

    Ed

    Like

  76. Ed,

    I’m sure JD was experiencing on a lot of self reflection when he called Julie Anne.

    I’m under the impression that some of his puppets and John Carpenter still wanted to continue their relentless crusade to force their ideology on Dr. Caner. (that is for Dr. Caner to openly succumb and satisfy their definition of repentance)

    It seems so obvious that if Dr. Caner was a professed Calvinist they would not have been so relentless.

    Strangely, while Fred Phelps was carrying on with his hateful crusade JD and the Puppets were relatively silent compared to the attention they were giving Caner. The same thing could be said about Driscoll.

    They are so one-sided and yet they simply don’t see it.

    As for Paul, he is done here.

    Like

  77. Thanks Julie Anne.

    I think Paul was cordial in the way he expressed his loyalty to JD.

    Not sure if he followed all of JD’s Pulpit and Twitter dialogues (and my warnings to JD and his puppets) for the 12 months prior to the Caner Family tragedy.

    There seems to be a gentle spirited sincerity in Paul that didn’t know how to further respond to our assertions of Pulpits toxic methodology and stay loyal to his Pastor.

    Like

  78. As I’ve said before, I have quite an extensive collection of tweets saved from JD Hall and decided not to post it after he publicly repented. Words and behavior reveal the heart.

    Like

  79. Julie Anne,

    Public repentance in my view is over rated.

    The only judge of repentance comes from the father. Now we may recognize one has repented based on our own interpretation of the bible.
    (which really is a turning away from the old secular and sinful repetitive behavior and methodologies)

    So both JD and Dr. Caner have proclaimed repentance to the world.

    Pulpit still disputes Caner’s repentance. Even after the tragedy the puppets were still trying to justify their sinful methodology.

    I think you reaching out to JD was an act of Love. Maybe there is something you see that makes you convinced that JD is truly repentant.

    I’m not going to dispute one way or the other because I don’t know what is truly in JD’s heart.

    In JD’s case I’m just not so sure staying involved in Media is really a good idea if he is truly repentant.

    But I know this, I’m not going to start blog chasing JD every single day questioning whether or not he has repented, for the harm he played apart of in the Caner tragedy even though JD chooses is involved in Media..

    My impression is Pulpit still embraces cyber attacking, but again that’s my impression.

    Like

  80. Mark,

    I don’t think that Fred Phelps belongs to the SBC. As a matter of fact, Fred Phelps is like JD, a Baptist without any affiliation with the Baptists at large.

    If I remember correctly, no Baptist even wants to claim any association with Fred Phelps.

    JD severed ties with the SBC, and therefore, he needs to move on with his independent little church congregation, and leave the SBC alone, as well as leaving alone anyone that is a member of SBC, whether they are Calvinists or not.

    I am reminded of what the Good Witch said to the Wicked Witch in the Wizard of Oz: “You have no power here. Be Gone, before a house falls on you, too.”

    He has no say in the SBC decisions at all, especially since he was the one that divorced them. And from what I can see, there is no chance of a reconciliation. They don’t really want him back, do they?

    He’s just an angry disgruntled “ex” member, not a current member with grievances.

    He needs to remember the “ex” word, and what it means.

    Ed

    Like

  81. Ed,

    I suggested that while Pulpit was more consumed with focusing their relentless Crusade on Dr. Caner they were relatively silent with Fred Phelps.

    My impression is because JD and Phelps embraced similar doctrines and similar methodologies. Whereas JD embraces Calvinism and Dr. Caner doesn’t.

    Peter Lumpkins actually exposed 2 separate videos of Hall and Phelps and their methodologies have a similar spin.

    Like

  82. I just saw this post. I would encourage you, JA, to call me if you have any questions regarding me. I actually pulled out the phone to call you several months back, and realized I never saved your number. Hopefully you still have mine. In the mean time, to clarify, I did post several articles between Christmas and New Years in relation to #the15 because I saw that it was an opportunity to highlight the gross errors of Lifeway, particularly in regards to Heaven Tourism. I saw the possibility of national exposure, and decided to engage and posted those articles. In retrospect, with Alex Malarkey’s letter that became such a huge story (and I believe has done a tremendous amount of good), I’m glad I did. But if you have noticed, I haven’t written anything or hardly even tweeted about that from @WildernessRadio since January 1. It is important to me to let others do the fighting on most issues and I’m glad the contributors of P&P have taken a lead on that. I may post there from time to time, but am not a contributor – and it’s not uncommon to guest post, as Ken Fryer did recently. Other than clarifying that, and in open disclosure I’ve read very few comments because – frankly – I don’t want to start my week by hearing what a terrible wretch I am when I already know it, I’m glad that roughly a month or so could go by for Wilderness Radio to be heard. I feel like you positioned this article to assert or insinuate that VWR is about JD Hall and would be used to further wage war against such-and-such or so-and-so (that’s my read anyway). I hope that you can tell this couldn’t further be from the truth.

    VWR is designed to support (A) the small church pastor who faithfully exposits the Word but will probably never be asked to have his sermons played on the radio without paying for it (B) the Christian who may attend church but not hear quality preaching or the Christian who wants to grow in faith but doesn’t know where to turn to hear quality material. I have a “station manager” (as I call him) who does literally 100% of the work and a team of volunteers that manage the website end of things. This is my pet project that exists to help the “little guy”; not to wage war on issues or build up my reputation. What am I working on, if volunteers are running this? I’m talking to shortwave radio stations on the East coast to get them to run our feed into the islands of the coast of Africa and South America where the population’s only media is shortwave, so they can get the Gospel this way and potentially, a hillbilly scholar (that’s not an insult to me) preacher in Arkansas can be heard overseas. I think VWR has perhaps been prejudged and prejudged wrongly as to what it’s about – 24/7 of Gospel preaching – with the exception of three podcasts (yes, a few which you may disagree with, but we’ll have to agree to disagree)…none of which is mine. As far as all the negative commenters here, grace and peace to you all. — JD

    Like

  83. JD – I am absolutely swamped with college deadlines/tests, so I can’t adequately respond to you now, but really want to do so. Please hang tight. I still have your phone number so either I will respond here or try to get in touch by phone when things lighten up. As far as encouraging pastors by airing Kevin Swanson? Puh-lease, Jordan. Think this through – this should not be about a Wilnerness radio show because of “who Jordan likes” but because of sound doctrine, no? If you’re going to get your panties in a wad about Lifeway and the kid faking the heaven story, what in the world are you having Kevin Womb Tomb Swanson on your show? That man spews so much rhetoric and extra nonsense that secular media especially has a heyday with him. But hey, if you want Swanson there and are going to advertise it, then you better believe I will point out that Wilderness radio lacks discernment by having not only Swanson, but also a man (Miano) who says that women can’t read Scripture in front of men. Can’t you find any better than that? Please, Jordan, consider what you are putting on your show to feed people. You are responsible for that!

    Like

  84. JD,
    I’m weirded out about that kids confession. It doesn’t sit with me very well. The words that he used in his confession could not have come to him, except they were coached to him. No kid would be able to come up with them words on their own in regards to theology, or doctrinal beliefs. And, his words matches what I was told on Pulpit and Pen in regards to Heaven is For Real. Someone got to him. Last post Easter, I debated Pulpit and Pen in regards to Heaven is for Real. The same words that they used to against the movie/book/story is almost like a cut and paste of this kids confession. This kid is too young to know anything about doctrine, or theology. And yet, he uses words in his confession that come from an educated adult. I’m not buying his confession.

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  85. JD,

    Just because YOU and YOUR doctrine does not believe in “heaven tourism”, that doesn’t mean anything to those who do.

    You believe that it is not biblical. But others believe that it is biblical.

    1 Cor 12:1-4.

    Why did Paul not tell his whole story of that?
    1. It was a conversation carried over from chapter 11 where he didn’t want to brag about himself, except by telling people about his hardships.

    2. He hid the fact that he was talking about himself.

    3. He WANTED to brag about it. He wanted to brag about so bad, and THAT was the thorn. That thorn was Satan telling him to “BRAG ABOUT YOURSELF, PAUL.”

    4. So, he wasn’t going to brag about those things, which is why he put it in a third person.

    I knew a man in Christ above 14 years ago.

    There is no doubt that Paul was discussing himself in that…HOWEVER, even if he wasn’t, Paul left the door open in those 4 verses that states that it is possible for someone to die (and Paul did die, as he was dragged out of the city after being stoned…to death), see heaven, and come back to tell about it.

    Paul didn’t tell about his experience because he didn’t want to brag about himself.

    That is a seed to show that people have stories to tell, and here you are on a freaking crusade to get publishers to take those books off the shelves. How dare you?

    Ed

    Liked by 1 person

  86. Ed said,

    JD,
    Just because YOU and YOUR doctrine does not believe in “heaven tourism”, that doesn’t mean anything to those who do.

    Thank you.

    Not that I’m fully on either side of this topic, but I get tired of the hyper skepticism I see from people about it, including Christians!

    I don’t think Christians should just quickly accept every Near Death / Heavenly Visitation story that comes down the pike. I do think they should check any such stories against the Bible and so forth.

    On the other hand, I get a little frustrated with Christians who are so beholden to sola scriptura (and I like sola scriptura), that they automatically criticize or mock any and every person who claims they have a supernatural experience.

    As much as I like radio personality Janet Mefferd (and I really do), I disagree with her on a few topics, and this is one of them. She’s had a guest or two on her show over the past couple years who are very, very critical of people (especially other Christians) who say they went to Heaven during an NDE.

    These same critical Christians are also usually opposed to the workings of the Holy Spirit today. I come from a Southern Baptist background and am not a Charismatic and am not in complete agreement with Charismatic folks. So, I’m ambivalent about speaking in tongues and stuff like that too.

    But. Other Christians who are sola scriptura act like the Trinity is composed of Father, Son, and Holy Bible. They seem to ignore or downplay the Holy Spirit.

    I don’t understand why Jesus said to folks he was going to send them the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit was going to do next to nothing for believers on earth after Jesus ascended?

    And it’s just so strange to me that Christians today would scoff at Christian claims of NDEs. Don’t Christians believe in the Supernatural? In life after death, a demonic realm, a Hell, a Heaven, that Jesus walked on water, that Jesus was raised from the dead?
    There is a lot of supernatural elements running through out the Christian faith, but many Christians today will only accept the “historical” incidents thereof, such as God parting the Red Sea.

    If the God who raised Jesus from the dead, who walked on water, etc, etc, can do all that stuff, and Paul records he was taken into Heaven while alive, who says God does not sometimes permit Christians today to experience these things?

    And again, I’m not saying Christians should just blindly accept every supernatural story they hear, because goodness knows there are a lot of frauds out there telling lies to fleece Christians, but I cannot understand the extreme skepticism I see from some Christians on this stuff.

    Like

  87. This kid is too young to know anything about doctrine, or theology. And yet, he uses words in his confession that come from an educated adult. I’m not buying his confession.

    I think that’s why Jordan wrote that Arminian nightmare book, Ed- so kids could learn doctrine – well, at least Calvinist doctrine.

    Like

  88. Missdaisyflower,

    Those of us who are NOT Calvinists are accused of being some kind of a pelican (note the sarcasm). Calvinists, to me, are just like the Pharisees. Here Jesus is presenting himself as God, performing SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES, and they say that he “hath the devil”, calling him a liar, and a blasphemer. They wanted to kill Jesus on a number of occasions for disagreeing with THEIR doctrine.

    Mark 11:18
    And the scribes and chief priests heard it, and sought how they might destroy him: for they feared him, because all the people was astonished at his doctrine.

    JD Hall wants to destroy the kids story, and so, SOMEONE planted his confession. I believe that his confession is a lie. The following is what his confession was:

    “”I did not go to heaven. I said I went to heaven because I thought it would get me attention. When I made the claims that I did, I had never read the Bible.”

    Alex asks for forgiveness in the letter and points people to the Bible as “the only source of truth”.

    “Please forgive the brevity, but because of my limitations I have to keep this short. … I said I went to heaven because I thought it would get me attention. When I made the claims that I did, I had never read the Bible. People have profited from lies, and continue to. They should read the Bible, which is enough. The Bible is the only source of truth. Anything written by man cannot be infallible.”

    ———————————–

    What teenager do you know uses the word “BREVITY”? I know of NONE. Especially a handicapped kid. Then, with the “confession” that he had never read the Bible, he states, “…the Bible, which is enough.”

    That is out of THEIR doctrinal beliefs that “the bible is sufficient”. That is not a confession of a teenager. All of those words are words that were GIVEN to him to say, by an adult. I have no doubt in my mind.

    Go to Pulpit and Pen, and read my debate with JD Hall, and others that were there in regards to Heaven is for Real. Their responses to me, it’s like a freaking CUT AND PASTE of this kids FALSE confession.

    ——————————

    And, on my blog, I make note on a few occasions that Calvinism is set up in such a way to make war between Christians. The words that I used were, “to pit Christians against one another”, or something like that.

    But, in essence, prior to this kids false confession, JD and others are BASICALLY saying that this kid was NOT A CHRISTIAN, and/or, “he hath the devil”.

    If it ain’t Ergun’s KID, it’s now this KID. When is this picking on KID’s thing gonna stop.

    Ed

    Like

  89. Ed, I don’t know if the kid’s recantation (is recantation even a real word LOL?) is genuine or not.

    His mother has been quoted on her blog as repeating the essence of it, that he made the whole thing up.

    You said, “Those of us who are NOT Calvinists are accused of being some kind of a pelican (note the sarcasm). ”

    Ah, pelagianism, you mean (or semi p)? I’ve heard some Christians yell and scream that to believe making a choice is involved in salvation is pelagianism (HERESY!)

    I think that is because they assume making a choice = meritorious, but I see no such thinking like that in the Bible.

    God constantly asks people to make choices in the Bible. People in the NT are told they must confess Christ and believe in Christ to be saved, so it looks like God demands or expect some action on the part of the sinner to me, but you get zero credit for whatever action (Jesus gets all credit).

    You said,

    Here Jesus is presenting himself as God, performing SUPERNATURAL MIRACLES, and they say that he “hath the devil”, calling him a liar, and a blasphemer. They wanted to kill Jesus on a number of occasions for disagreeing with THEIR doctrine.

    I get your meaning there, but to get back to one of my points above…

    Yes, Jesus did supernatural stuff, raising the dead to life and so on, and he said his followers would do greater deeds than himself (which, IMO, implies followers would also do things like raise the dead to life, etc, but I’ve seen Christians redefine this to mean no, Jesus only meant sharing the Gospel, like handing out tracts to people. 🙄 )

    But in spite of the fact that there are supernatural events sprinkled throughout the Bible, very extreme sola scriptura guys today disbelieve God can or will or does perform supernatural feats today, in 2015. I find that very, very weird.

    And I am not insulting sola scriptura. I agree with it. I think it’s important.

    But when I was reading various sites about the Malarky kid’s near death experience – on Christian and Non-Christian (skeptic) sites, they sounded identical. Which struck me as weird, there again. You have a lot of Christians agreeing with today’s atheists that God does not do supernatural stuff in today’s world, that is just bunk (they say).

    Said Ed,

    But, in essence, prior to this kids false confession, JD and others are BASICALLY saying that this kid was NOT A CHRISTIAN, and/or, “he hath the devil”.

    If it ain’t Ergun’s KID, it’s now this KID. When is this picking on KID’s thing gonna stop.

    Those are both very good points.

    So, when the kid was not in line with their approved version of Christianity, they were saying he’s a heathen, but suddenly, when he recants and supposedly says “The Bible only, the Bible only!!” they regard him as one of their own.

    It is troubling they seem to target children.

    I think they are obsessed with Ergun Caner and should have dropped the witch hunt of that guy a long time ago.

    They spent years publishing screeds against him. From my understanding, Caner did do or say dishonest things, but I’m not sure that a years-long crusade against him was justified. And of course they put his teen son in the cross hairs at one point.

    Like

  90. Missdaisyflower,

    You said:
    “His mother has been quoted on her blog as repeating the essence of it, that he made the whole thing up. ”

    His mother CANNOT believe her child, all due to the fact that she is in lock step with the doctrines of John MacArthur, JD Hall, and other big names that preach against it. And because their so-called “experts” don’t believe it, and preach against it, the mother has NO CHOICE but to preach against it herself, and therefore, her kid is now known as a liar, for in his phoney confession, he states that he lied. But I don’t believe that he lied. But he now has a COERCED admission of guilt. This is a feigned confession. He knows what he saw, and now he is CONDEMNED as a liar, all because mommy doesn’t believe him. And what’s more, is that she is being courted, so to speak, by some REALLY big name people who have major influence to get books removed.

    NOTHING LIKE A GOOD OLE FASHIONED CHRISTIAN BOOK BURNING CEREMONY, HUH?

    Next, you said:
    “but I’ve seen Christians redefine this to mean no, Jesus only meant sharing the Gospel, like handing out tracts to people.”

    Ya, I always get a kick out of that one, as if Jesus said, “Here, pass out these pamphlets.” Well, there are a lot of garbage cans that will make it to heaven, I suppose.

    Next, you said:
    “And I am not insulting sola scriptura. I agree with it. I think it’s important. ”

    I agree with your point in how you laid it out. It’s the Catholics that began bashing sola scriptora, and I defend it. The reason that the Catholics bash it, is because they want to include that whatever Rome states, that is an EXTENSION of the Word of God. Well, we protestants (actually non-Catholics) argue against it by defending sola scriptora. But the Calvinists took that sola scriptora a bit too far, because as you note, Jesus said that we will do GREATER THINGS than he did. In addition, Jesus said that he has MUCH TO STILL TEACH.

    John 16:12-13
    I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    However, what you said in regards to things of today, the Calvinists are dead set against it. We believe that the gifts are for today, for the scripture states “WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT COME, THEN” those gifts will NO LONGER BE NEEDED, but that LOVE NEVER CEASES. 1 Cor 13. The conversation of gifts began in chapter 12. The gifts are needed today. That is why they are not done away with.

    7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

    8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

    9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

    10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

    11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    Those are all the gifts.
    1. Wisdom
    2. The Word of Knowledge
    3. Faith
    4. Gifts of healing
    5. Working miracles
    6. Prophecy
    7. Discerning spirits
    8. Tongues
    9. Interpretations of tongues.

    Seems that most only concentrate on tongues, healing, and miracles, bashing them. When do they end? As I stated above:

    1 Cor 13:10
    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    Verse 8
    Charity (LOVE) never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

    Jesus is the one who is perfect, and he hasn’t come yet. And even when all of the gifts cease, LOVE NEVER CEASES (FAILETH).

    If these people who preach that the bible is sufficient, how do they miss these VERY SIMPLE words?

    Ed

    Like

  91. I noticed that I forgot to include the REST of his the kid’s confession, so here it is in it’s entirety:

    “Please forgive the brevity, but because of my limitations I have to keep this short.

    I did not die. I did not go to Heaven.

    I said I went to heaven because I thought it would get me attention. When I made the claims that I did, I had never read the Bible. People have profited from lies, and continue to. They should read the Bible, which is enough. The Bible is the only source of truth. Anything written by man cannot be infallible.

    It is only through repentance of your sins and a belief in Jesus as the Son of God, who died for your sins (even though he committed none of his own) so that you can be forgiven may you learn of Heaven outside of what is written in the Bible…not by reading a work of man. I want the whole world to know that the Bible is sufficient. Those who market these materials must be called to repent and hold the Bible as enough.

    In Christ,

    Alex Malarkey.”

    It is the last paragraph that I forgot to include. But my WHOLE POINT is that NONE OF THAT CONFESSION came from the boy, Alex Malarkey. NONE of it. These are words of an educated adult, not a child. His confession is “malarkey”.

    Does anyone besides me see coercion? Or that mommy wrote it? Or that either Phil Johnson, or John MacArthur, or JD Hall coached it, or had something to do with it?

    I smell fraud on the part of JD Hall, and Phil Johnson, as they have an agenda, all because their doctrine rejects the boys initial claims.

    SOMEONE GOT TO THE BOY, all for the sake of DOCTRINE. False doctrine. And the boy is made to be the fall guy, the fool, the liar, the kid with a huge “imagination”.

    This boy did NOT confess. Someone confessed FOR him.

    Ed

    Like

  92. Ed,
    Does anyone besides me see coercion?

    There was definitely coercion somewhere in this story. Was it the dad who helped write the book? It definitely sounds more like the mother. The confession sounds too well articulated for a young teen to have written. The boy is in a position where he has no choice but to do exactly what he is told to do. I think it is sad no matter what the circumstance. Adults are using this boy for whatever their agenda may be.

    I think if someone wants to have a book burning, I have a bunch of John Piper’s books that I’d throw into the fire. Leave this boy alone. No matter what this child does from here on out, he will be the boy who lied. It is a terrible thing that has been done to him.

    Liked by 2 people

  93. Ed,
    Something else.

    I don’t think that the Malarky kid was demanding that people must believe his life after death story, saying it was required doctrine, so I don’t know what difference it makes to J D Hall and the others if people write about or believe in heavenly visitations?

    If you are measuring stories like that against the Bible, and you can see if or where the kid’s story lacks biblical support, that should be good enough.

    It just seems to me as though these guys who are extremely skeptical of God using supernatural means in 2015 are putting God in a box.

    I’ve been struggling with the faith the last couple years, I’m a little bit Christian, a little bit agnostic (remember the old Barbra Mandrell song, “I’m a little bit country, a little bit rock and roll,” it’s like that 🙂 )?

    Even me, in my current Christian-Agnostic state, has more faith in God (if he exists) that he can or will use supernatural means today than some of these preacher guys yelling against NDEs on their blogs. It’s so very strange.

    Who are these guys to say that God does not allow a kid on the thresh-hold of death or coma to visit Heaven?
    I’m not saying Christians should not measure such claims against the Bible (I think they should and should be cautious), but mercy, I would expect to see this kind of or amount of skepticism from world famous atheist Richard Dawkins than from self professing Christians.

    I have read excerpts from Malarkey’s or the other boy’s account (I’ve only read quotes online, not entire books by these kids) where one of them said “Satan has a moldy tooth.”

    Now I will say that kind of thing does give me pause. I will admit that. I don’t recall the Bible saying the devil has a single, moldy tooth.

    I don’t know about that, but I find it odd that people who say they believe a man walked on water, was raised to death, and will return in the sky on a white horse one day scoff at little kids who say on their death bed they saw a glimpse of Heaven.

    How is maybe a kid seeing a glimpse of Heaven more far-fetched than believing God parted the Red Sea, or that Jesus raised the dead girl back to life?

    And the kid is not saying you have to believe his story or details of it to be saved. He was just like, “this is what happened to me, this was my experience.

    I’ve also seen extreme skepticism by some Christians in regards to the stories of Muslims who convert to Jesus in the Mid East, because they say they had dreams or visions of Jesus.

    Apparently (according to Christians who are super skeptical) these Muslim guys who came to believe in Jesus were not really, really converted to Jesus, because they saw Jesus in a vision, did not read about him in a Bible.

    Unless someone reads about Jesus in a Bible or I guess hears an American evangelical give the Gospel in a church, the person who believe in Jesus, their salvation is not real or true? That is what it sounds like they are saying to me.

    Like

  94. Daisy, you said a mouthful here.

    How is maybe a kid seeing a glimpse of Heaven more far-fetched than believing God parted the Red Sea, or that Jesus raised the dead girl back to life?

    Too many Christians want to minimize God. He will show us who He is for His Glory. There have been many accounts of people who claim to have seen Heaven in near death or actual death and being revived situations. It is not out of the realm of possibility that God wants us to know that He is still alive and well today. He works in mysterious ways and we should not try to limit what He is capable of doing.

    Liked by 2 people

  95. Ed, you raise some really good points about this situation. I know you were bothered by it long ago. One thing thay stumps me is why did Phil Johnson’s email just now surface when it was from a couple of years ago (not positive on the dates)? But I’ve seen Johnson give attaboy Retweets to Pulpit and Pen when they were covering this story (along with the #the15 tweets). Why didn’t he cough up this email a year ago and why now?

    Like

  96. Julie Anne,

    I saw that email, too, and it just bugs me. Maybe he just wanted to get some sort of a confirmation that Tyndale was going thru with removing the book, so as for Phil Johnson to not look foolish, I just don’t know.

    Ed

    Like

  97. MissDaisyFlower,

    If the bible is sufficient and men are not infallible as John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, and JD Hall claim, then all three of those people need to step aside and let the average pew sitter make up their own minds.

    Now, you raised the point that it must be backed up by scripture. That’s really not that difficult. Anyone who has ever read the Bible from A to Z should already be familiar with the supernatural stuff. 2 Cor 12:1-4, Paul was there. So, we already have it that people die, and go to heaven, come back, and has the ability to tell about it.

    Not only that, we should all know that we are a spirit, first and foremost. Therefore, when we die, we are still existing. Ghosts are not a far fetched concept, because when Jesus rose from the dead, his disciples thought that they had seen a ghost. So where did they come up with the idea of Ghosts exists to begin with? Obviously, people see ghosts, aka spirits. Our naked eyes cannot see spirits. God has to unblind us to see. Here is an example:

    2 Kings 6:14-17
    14 Then the king sent horses and chariots and a strong army there. They went at night and surrounded the city. The servant of the man of God got up the next morning. He went out early. He saw that an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. “Oh no, my master!” the servant said. “What can we do?”
    “Don’t be afraid,” the prophet answered. “Those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” Elisha prayed, “Lord, open my servant’s eyes so that he can see.” Then the Lord opened his eyes. Elisha’s servant looked up and saw the hills. He saw that Elisha was surrounded by horses and chariots made of fire.

    Then we have the story of the RICH man and Lazarus. Now, some believe that to be a parable. But, if you zipper all of the gospels together, you will see that the story of the Rich man and Lazarus was told the the disciples only, not for the general public.

    Here is a video of a man, Howard Storm, that went to Hell and he came back and told about it. He was an atheist before (The naysayers will attribute things like this to “drugs”…not me). It’s a short condensed version of a much longer story:

    Ed

    Like

  98. Brenda, Ed</b, anyone else who would like to weigh in here:

    This is slightly off topic in a way, but related to something Brenda said above,

    Too many Christians want to minimize God. He will show us who He is for His Glory. There have been many accounts of people who claim to have seen Heaven in near death or actual death and being revived situations. It is not out of the realm of possibility that God wants us to know that He is still alive and well today. He works in mysterious ways and we should not try to limit what He is capable of doing.

    I don’t know if this is something Julie Anne may want to make a new post about some day, but it’s one of several things that has been bothering me about the Christian faith.

    I keep seeing (like in blog posts or Christian magazine articles) or hearing on Christian radio shows explanations about the promises of the Bible.

    (I’m also disturbed by unanswered prayer too, but that might be a topic for another time and day).

    I keep hearing Christians disagree about who, when, and if the promises of the Bible apply to people today. They especially debate this in regards to the Old Testament (but sometimes the New).

    Sometimes these Christians contradict themselves on these points, and I’m so confused, I’m not sure what to believe.

    There is a Christian guy with a daily or weekly Christian podcast. He’s pretty much a nice guy, I think he means well, but I don’t always agree with him. His usual thing is to critique sermons by well-known evangelical, mega church preachers.

    Sometimes he does parodies on his podcast. Once, he did a commercial break where he played a pirate on a pirate ship. He had someone else pretend to be mega church pastor Steve Furtick.

    In the parody commercial, as the pirate was shelling Furtick’s ship (I know this sounds weird, please bear with me), the Furtick impersonator was quoting God’s promises the entire ordeal, the way a Christian today might do under duress.

    Like every time you heard a canon ball noise slam the Furtick ship, the pirate would laugh and say, “Ha ha, he’s sinking, we’ve got him now.”
    Then the Furtick impersonator would quote stuff like, “No weapon forged against me shall prosper!,” only to have his ship sink further as another canon ball hit it.

    The point to that, I suppose, is that the promises of the Bible are not intended for Christians today. The promises were meant only for the direct audience to whom they were written, which are usually ancient Israelites from several thousand years ago, like King David and those guys.

    That to me sounds weird, though. Why did God bother putting in a bunch of promises if most of them were not going to be applicable to readers thousands of years later?

    I understand some rules (like dietary rules) might cease to be applicable (due to living under grace, cultural differences, etc), but stuff like, “I shall be with you always, even unto the end,” or whatever – why do some Christians think such promises have Expiration Dates????

    Where I do wonder, though, is that I’ve seen Christians who were believing in such and such a promise in the Old or New Testament (like for a healing from a sickness, whatever), and they stayed sick or died (or lost a job, or their marriage fell apart, whatever).

    So….I don’t know. Sometimes you can believe those promises and they don’t come true for you or someone you know. Why is that?
    Why does God honor some prayers for healing (or for financial help, whatever) but not everyone?? And is that proof that the promises maybe aren’t for believers today?

    (I hope it’s okay I’m asking this stuff here. There are some topics I have really been struggling with since my mother died a few years ago, and with other things, and this is one of those topics.)

    Like

  99. I feel very sorry for that child. Something is very wrong in that family. I agree with you Ed, that an adult wrote that ‘confession.’

    I don’t see anything anti-Biblical about NDEs and I do see an agenda here.

    That said, I don’t know what happened to Alex. It could have been an NDE, a dream, or a hallucination from medication. Whatever it was, from the mother’s account, it sounds like his father and the publishing company exploited him. Why has no medical trust been set up for Alex? He is on Medicaid and his unmet medical needs have been covered by funds donated by a friend. If Alex is a co-author with his father, why has he received no funds from the book? Why was his mother excluded from the legal process and only one parent allowed to represent the child’s interests? The mother says that she is Alex’s only caregiver; why doesn’t the father help? Where is he? How are these two people not divorced?!

    I don’t care about the book itself but I do care about that child. Somebody needs to be looking out for his interests.

    Liked by 1 person

  100. Ed, yes, I’ve seen Howard Storm on TV before, I think I linked to one of his videos on here about a week ago 🙂

    You said,

    If the bible is sufficient and men are not infallible as John MacArthur, Phil Johnson, and JD Hall claim

    This is related though a tiny bit off topic I was just looking at one of my books last night by a Christian psychiatrist. I was re-reading the last chapter.

    The doctor who wrote it said some Christians go too far with sola scriptura, to the point the tell mentally troubled people all they need to do is read and study the Bible and they will be fine. But the Christian doctor said that is false.

    The Bible even says after you have heard (or read) the word of God, to go do what it says. And the Bible tells you to go share your burdens with other Christians, let them cheer you up. It does not say for you to take your Bible alone to your room and just sit there alone and read it all the time.

    (JMac by the way is very staunchly opposed to Christians with depression or mental health problems using anything other than prayer and Bible reading).

    My point here is not to go off on a tangent about depression and psychology, etc, but only to show how the extreme “Bible only” view can be harmful to people, and that is one example. I think the “Bible alone” view is distorted and twisted quite a bit in Christian circles, by Christians who mean well.

    I also agree with you, that there is an incident in the NT where Paul was taken into Heaven and then back again.

    I think John was too, in the book of Revelation. He was taken into Heaven and had visions and was told to write stuff on scrolls.

    It’s not unprecedented for God to take people into Heaven and back down again. I don’t know what the rationale is that God would stop doing that for believers today.

    The only thing I hear from some is that God only needed to do such wonderous feats to establish the Christian faith at the dawn of the age of grace… but where does the Bible say that??

    Isn’t it strange that people who claim to cling so dearly to the sufficiency of Scripture also add beliefs to it, or infer things in, or make assumptions about what it’s saying , that are not actually recorded or stated in Scriptures themselves?

    (Apologies to HUG who has an aversion to the word Scriptures, I only use it to break up the monotony of calling them “The Bible” all the time 🙂 )

    Liked by 1 person

  101. MissDaisyFlower,

    You do indeed bring up some very interesting stuff. I’d like to know the premises of the promises that they are spouting. But here is one thing: God never promised us a rose garden. But that is not to say that God won’t bless us with one.

    OK, so, to really get to the nitty gritty of things, It’s really all about the following:

    Where do we go when we die?

    Hebrews 11 does a really good job at explaining it, I think, anyway.

    It all starts with Abraham. Abraham was given a promise. So, our job is to figure out what that promise is really all about.

    The Promise was/is called The Promised Land, even in today’s verbage.

    It is two fold.
    1. Carnal
    2. Spiritual

    1. The Carnal is a small piece of real estate in the Middle East called Israel, with SPECIFIC BORDERS as give by God to Abraham. To date those specific borders have YET to be obtained. And this is the whole issue behind the never ending tensions with the Palestinians and the Jews and all of the Jews neighbors.

    Now, based on HERITAGE, the family of Ishmael should get that promise. But God instituted circumcision as a token promise that the heritage will NOT be to Ishmael, but to Isaac, the promised SEED (spiritually that is Jesus and His (God’s) children aka children of God/Children of Abraham). So, today, the Jews use the covenant of circumcision as a DEED, or title of the land proving that it is theirs.

    2. In a nutshell, the spiritual is that the Promised Land is HEAVEN, which means eternal life, and Jesus is the promised seed of Abraham. Ultimately, that’s it, end of story.

    Hence, eternal life is the promise, and all we gotta do is to believe THAT, just like Abraham believed and THAT was counted to him for righteousness.

    But then God added the law, which is not of faith, in order to trip people up, and make them stumble at the stumbling block, showing that you can’t get to heaven by anything that you do to try to obtain eternal life. No one measures up.

    So, in regards to all of the other promises…TAXES…just kidding. I’d have to see each promise as it is presented. That’s the only way that I can say it. But sure, if presented, I’m game.

    Ed

    Like

  102. Missdaisyflower,

    What that doctor said is exactly right. LIVING your faith, and that is what the book of James is all about in regards to WORKS that justifies your faith. Faith without works is dead.

    Well, if you believe it, you gotta live it, and that living it is a “do”, which means that we are a “doer of the WORD”, as James states. And doers are to “love thy neighbor as thyself”, and that shows that love is not JUST an emotion (warm and fuzzy), but an action word, as well!!

    Ed

    Like

  103. Daisy,
    You asked some really good questions. I don’t have all of the answers and some things are mystery and someday when I’m standing before Him in Heaven perhaps he will tell us all about it.

    “I shall be with you always, even unto the end,” or whatever – why do some Christians think such promises have Expiration Dates???? I don’t believe this particular promise has an expiration date. There are things that applied to the direct audience that was spoken to, others that those in the future applied to and/or both. I heard an explanation once in a movie as to why God allowed bad things to happen. What was said was and I am paraphrasing, A child may fall and skin their knees or have a worse injury. The parent might have been close by and it is not that they wanted it to happen, but things do happen. God doesn’t promise that bad things won’t happen. He promises to be right there with you when they do. You may not always feel his presence, but he’s there waiting for you to cry out for Him. Does that make sense?

    I’ve seen Christians who were believing in such and such a promise in the Old or New Testament (like for a healing from a sickness, whatever), and they stayed sick or died (or lost a job, or their marriage fell apart, whatever). When Jesus was here there were multitudes of people looking for healing of some sort and he did heal many, but not everyone. God does things for our good and His Glory. This is one of those mystery things. Why is one chosen to be healed or their marriage reconciled and another not? I have NO idea, but I have faith that He knows what He is doing. I know that I have continuous illness and am divorced, but I think I have learned much from all of these experiences. Perhaps, it is for my good and His Glory that all of this happened. By not healing me or saving my marriage other good will come out of it. I’m excited thinking about Him making good out of all of this.

    Why did Sarah pray until she gave up for a child and He gave her heart’s desire at what, 90 years old? Because, that was His plan. No one would have believed in a million years that a 90 year old woman would have a child. Our logic and His are tremendously different. We can’t even begin to understand His ways. All we can do is put our faith and trust in Him and turn it all over to Him.

    I wonder about the mysteries and promises. Not all things that folks think are promises are in the Bible are actually promises they are more like best case scenarios. We need to be careful to discern the difference.

    There needs to be an entire blog where we can discuss whatever questions we might have about God, Jesus, the Bible. Whatever we want to discuss. I’m not talking debate, but getting input like you would in a study group. Answering questions like you asked, Daisy.

    Unanswered prayer–I think that is what Sarah thought that she went through when what she asked for didn’t happen in her timing, but God’s. Sometimes the answer to prayer is NO. We will either accept that and realize God’s ways are not ours and move on or become bitter or discontent with Him. I choose to leave it in His hands.

    Sorry, Julie Anne. I know this has nothing to do with JD Hall or Pulpit and Pen, but did think Daisy’s questions deserved an answer as best as I could give.

    Like

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