Rachel Patrick shares personal experiences at Bob Jones University
Rachel Patrick was a former student of Bob Jones University (BJU). Although she did not participate in the GRACE investigation, she recently gave a public statement on Facebook, giving permission to share it. It is copied in its entirety as follows:
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I have made this post public and it may be shared with my permission.
I attended Bob Jones University from the fall of 2002 to December, 2005. I finished my last class via distance learning and was awarded my BA in English in 2006.
During my freshman year at BJU, my dorm counselor and dorm supervisor both became aware of certain information.
1. I was struggling from severe depression (related to a multitude of both environmental and clinical medical causes).
2. I had several times attempted to commit suicide.
3. I had experienced a sexual assault.
Their response was to place me on spiritual probation. I had to attend mandatory counseling sessions with my dorm supervisor, Esther White. At one point in these sessions, she told me that if I did not either get right with God or get saved, I would be expelled. These sessions lasted most of my Freshman year and I continued on spiritual probation through my sophomore year. These sessions entirely focused on my “spiritual” problems, increased my depression, and taught me that my only safety was in secrecy.
The summer after my freshman year when I arrived at the Wilds to work, I was called to the office of the then-director of the camp, Ken Collier. In his office he told me that he had been informed by my dorm counselor and dorm supervisor about my struggles over the past year. He said that the counseling team had erred in not involving my parents (I was 18) and that I had two options. I could call my parents and tell them about the “issues” of the past year and stay at the Wilds on probation and in mandatory counseling or he would both fire me and call my parents himself.
I believe that I had the least of the negative experiences that could potentially have been experienced through these “counseling processes.” I was friends with Esther White until she had to separate from my later “lifestyle” choices. I worked at the Wilds for two more years. I became an APC and a society Chaplain. I have spoken on behalf of the University to try and bring people to a better understanding of the great education I received and the commitment of an underpaid faculty that helped form my mind and character.
I experienced everything that the GRACE report delineated as problems at BJU, victim shaming, horrendous “counseling” methods, complete lack of confidentiality, being punished for needing help. And I chose not to speak to GRACE. I did not take the survey. I did not believe that an investigation and a report that was funded by Bob Jones University could be impartial. I did not want to revisit these issues or have a potential negative impact on my family. I actually left my position on the BJUnity board to give myself additional space from any appearance of “BJU bashing” or being one of the “disaffected.”
There are so many people like me, you cannot imagine. People who for a variety of reasons did not have their stories, stories so much worse than mine, included in this report. If you do not want to believe our stories, our collective witness, against the failings of this administration, you do not have to believe us. Believe the words of Bob Jones III, Bob Wood, Jim Berg, and Greg Mazak. Read their responses to the investigators. Listen to what they believe and what they have taught and continue to teach to generation after generation of preachers and teachers who are going out to further their work around this country and world.
God have mercy.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
I believe BJU should close its doors forever and that they would, if they were truly repentant.
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Jeff that is a very profound statement it really is. It would show a clear, world changing line in the sand. Bob Jones ? what ever Bob is still in charge. It would spell out a truly repentant healing God honoring move. It would show grace and would also totally validate those many injured. It would not cost them not one single doctrinal stance, it would even strengthen them. I think they could even use the land of the school sold to pay for restitution to those abused without any lawsuit.
Maybe a new educational institution could flower instead one that looks at the needs of the disenfranchised being won back to the faith. It would be so powerful in my opinion. Of course Gravity will fail before that happens but it is a nice idea.
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There is something deeply wrong within the American Evangelical world. It both frustrates and depresses me.
“Of course, semper reformanda doesn’t mean the church should mindlessly engage in change for the sake of faddish novelty or trendy innovation. That’s not what I’m talking about. Rather semper reformanda comes from the realization that there are forces—political, social, theological, spiritual, and so forth—that over time tend to twist the church and the gospel out of shape. As a result the church must continually seek to recover the true form and original beauty found in the gospel of Jesus Christ. This kind of reformation is an ongoing process. There is indeed a sense in which the need for some measure of reformation is always present, but there are also times when the need for reformation (think re-formation) is more critical than others. There are times when the distortion of the church is severe enough that the integrity of our message is compromised. I’m convinced the evangelical church in the Western world is facing just such a crisis. Putting it as plainly as I can, evangelical Christianity needs to recover the form and beauty that are intrinsic to Christianity. We need a reformation because we are being twisted out of shape.”
“Beauty Will Save the World: Rediscovering the Allure and Mystery of Christianity”
Brian Zahnd
Loc 147
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How being the victim of sexual assault means that you are not right with God or couldn’t possibly be saved eludes me. If this is the message given their students, what kind of church leaders are they sending into the world.
Any school “Christian” or secular that hides this type of behavior looses all credibility and should be shut down. Allowing the doors to remain open is giving license to the sin that is happening within. I am sure that BJU is not alone. I like Brian’s idea of selling off the land to pay restitution to the victims.
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I believe Rachael . What a courageous thing for Rachael to do. This is horrible. As I sought and found this place for my own horrible pain, I am astounded at the continual stories of so much horrific abuse, and at the hands of self proclaimed “Godly people”. I am not a naive person at all, yet I am horrified again. I know it seems to be a lame response for me, but I will pray for Rachael and all others who have been in and are in this hellish situation. I pray for God’s intervention and His Justice quickly.
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“I believe BJU should close its doors forever and that they would, if they were truly repentant.”
Thank you! You are one of the few who really get it. The same types who caused and perpetuated the evil cannot be trusted in any way. The evil culture there is too fixed and ingrained. It needs to cease to exist. If the Holy Spirit had convicted them of the great evil from that place, they would close the doors. And go repent in quiet working out their salvation with fear and trembling.
Same for the Catholic Church and all the rest of them.
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Jeff, I understand your motivation, but…..isn’t Christianity–the religion you claim to preach–based on something to do with forgiveness for sins and redemption? Aren’t a number of great leaders in Biblical history–Moses, David, Paul–not just sinners, but outright murderers? (a number of the judges, like Gideon and Jepthah, probably qualify as well)
Sorry, but flat out shutting down entire churches does not seem to square with what the Gospel is really about. Plus, if we shut down every institution that had handled an abuse allegation poorly in recent years, we wouldn’t have many left. To draw a picture, someone close to me was talking to friends among the police about her abuse and a more recent case, and the officer admitted point blank that at the time, they did not do a good job regarding domestic abuse. Do we shut down the police and the courts, then?
This case? Well, it would seem to be one of those cases for which BJU needs to repent, and I would further suggest that Miss Patrick would do well to make sure she shares the story directly with BJU and note “this would be an excellent case study to train resident assistants in how to deal with people who have been abused.”
To draw a picture, if I were to be the one hearing her out, I’d at least hope that I’d make clear that her abuse wasn’t her fault, and that I’d recognize when she talked about suicide attempts that things had gotten past my knowledge, and encourage her to make the next step with someone who did have that knowledge.
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Bike Bubba – – There are still people on staff, Jim Berg, for one, who has not spoken out about his responsibility. His counseling was spiritually abusive. The behavior will only repeat if the people responsible do not fully repent. I do not see full repentance at all.
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It’s too early to see full repentance, don’t you think? As Deming said,
In God We Trust, all others must provide data.
That is going to take time.
And regarding Berg, I can’t speak to his positions directly, as I’m not familiar with him. But I’ll assume for the sake of discussion that his views are abusive and at variance with Scripture, and that people have the evidence that this is the case.
It seems to me that now would be an excellent time to make that case to Berg’s department and to BJU administration if appropriate. Strike while the iron is hot if people have the evidence to make this case.
One additional thing–my profession as a quality engineer coming to mind–is the thought that if you want to prove that things have changed, you want to put documents in place that govern the counseling process, and you then want to audit compliance to that process, probably annually. Something along the lines of ISO certification.
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Would we ever send a victim of rape back to the perpetrator? That is what is happening if Jim Berg remains. His teachings were not Biblical. Some of these people were violated spiritually. They don’t need to go back to that. He should be removed with or without his repentance. We don’t wait for a pedophile to repent before taking action, do we?
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Rachel is a brave woman to share her experience on facebook. What gives Esther White and Ken Collier the right or experience to demand Rachel to accept their so called “counseling services”? Depression and sexual abuse are both issues that need to be dealt with by trained professionals who are licensed and also hold to the ethics of confidentiality. The staff at BJU obviously have huge boundary issues.
How does a young person learn to become independent high functioning mature adult, when they are in such a rigid environment? As a dorm counselor, Esther should have assisted Rachel in finding a therapist trained in depression and sexual abuse issues. From that point, Rachel could then choose to share whatever she wanted with Esther and decide what to keep between herself and the therapist. In addition, a therapist is not your friend, is bound to confidentiality and doesn’t drop you if you change your lifestyle decisions! I wonder how many students graduate from BJU lacking the life skills needed to adapt to the world, because so many of their choices have been dictated to them from the school.
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The entire dynamic, the mind-bending pressure to conform and the twisted partial truths bear the marks and essence of a cult, where men are gods unto themselves and its followers, who are only seeking to do what’s right, are shamed into submission.
Just as with any other cultic society, it will likely take many years for its victims to parse through the junk that comes with it, to recover and learn to trust God and His people again. So sad.
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Julie Anne,
You had said:
“Would we ever send a victim of rape back to the perpetrator? ”
Remember the Matthew 18 debacle Bike Bubba and I got into? He wants to find out if there is evidence of rape before having the church decide if there is probable cause to even dial 911, let alone the thought of seeking out a licensed professional therapist outside the church. Handling things “in-house”, I think, is Bike Bubba’s preferred method of doing things.
I have no idea why he thinks that there needs to be a delay in repentance. Too soon? Really?
But, is it really the institution that needs to “repent”? Or, is it the person(s) responsible? That way, the doors never need to be shut at all.
As The Apostle Paul stated in 1 Corinthians Chapter 5, he told the people in that church to close their doors, shut down, right? Nope…he said to get rid of that wicked person that was doing those things.
But, I guess that my question is, If there is an environment of this in the atmosphere of that institution, why do people attend in the first place? Is that the only religious school in America?
Ed
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Would we ever send a victim of rape back to the perpetrator? That is what is happening if Jim Berg remains. His teachings were not Biblical. Some of these people were violated spiritually. They don’t need to go back to that. He should be removed with or without his repentance. We don’t wait for a pedophile to repent before taking action, do we?
Like I said, if you have the evidence to prove that Jim Berg is the moral equivalent of a rapist or pedophile due to his teachings, now would be a good time to provide that information to his department and BJU in general.
Again, as Deming said, In God We Trust, all others must provide data. Or, as our justice system says, “innocent until proven guilty.” In this case, the crime BJU seems to have committed against Miss Patrick is that they assumed that her difficulties resulted from a moral and spiritual deficiency on her part–basically by jumping to conclusions.
Now what you’re doing with Mr. Berg is–at least until you provide BJU with the evidence to prove what you claim–to force BJU to jump to conclusions. Ironically, that would leave future Miss Patricks even more defenseless against abuse than they are now. See what I mean here?
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See what I mean?
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I don’t personally know Berg either but I know he behaved despicably because I read the entire report where his actions were described and his admissions and responses were quoted. When a music student was alone in a building practicing the piano over the weekend and a former student came in and raped her a knifepoint, for example, the proper response was not preventing the victim from calling the police, scolding the rapist and telling him he is – gasp – not allowed on campus again (that will teach him). The proper response is to get the victim to a hospital, have a raoe kit done and call the police.
Berg says the reason he didn’t call the police when a student came in and groped a sleeping student who woke up and objected was because it was a moral issue, not a crime. He said it wasn’t a sexual assault because no rape occurred. Uh, yes it is sexual assault and yes it is a crime.
Berg’s instructions for counseling a sex abuse victim include asking, in the very first interview if they got any sexual pleasure in the assault.
I could go on….
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BB, if you are not going to read the report, then do not tell us there is no evidence. What Berg admits to and what was provided to GRACE of his talks and written handbooks and the like is the best evidence possible.
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Yes, Ed, I see all too well what is going on here. I doubt BB would believe BJU counselors and officials did anything wrong if we showed him videotape.
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Ed once again totally misconstrues what I said. Let’s start with this case; I am merely saying that the proof of BJU’s repentance is in their future behavior, not in a micro-analysis of present statements.
And regarding the case of clear abuse committed by the church; yes, I think it’s appropriate that there be actual evidence that a rape occurred before involving the police. To do otherwise is to channel “The boy who cried wolf.” Look it up, Ed.
Or, to draw more modern pictures, google “Mike Nifong” and “UVA rape case”, both of which have been found on relatively minor investigation to be colossal frauds. When I call in the police on a suspected case of abuse, I am guaranteed that I will be turning someone’s life upside down. I don’t need enough evidence for a conviction or even an indictment, but I do owe it to all concerned that there is at least some reason to call.
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Bike Bubba, You don’t get to defend Jim Berg here. There is enough evidence based on his quoted words, in his sermons and materials that he has harmed people emotionally and spiritially.
Remember where you are posting. This is not a perpetrator support blog.
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BB, I don’t think an institution can repent. I think every individual accused in the report of falling down on the job needs to approach each victim in person and in private and say: I am sorry I failed to protect you.
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And what evidence of a rape are you qualified to evaluate, BB? What would convince you? And in the meantime, the real evidence that could be obtained from a medical exam and a rape kit is going to be lost.
Would you investigate first if someone told you that their money had been stolen at knifepoint? Maybe they gave it away voluntarily and are now sorry they did. Maybe they are lying and we should make them prove that they actually had any money.
Trained investigators should investigate. Not me and not you.
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Bike Bubba,
Oh, I didn’t misconstrue anything from you.
Police detectives are professionals. They have the means to investigate. The average so called “elder” or “pastor” or “pew sitter” is not capable of forensic investigations, nor are they capable at determining who is telling the truth.
I am reminded of the statements, “She’s lying…”, etc. Forensics don’t lie.
Dial 911 first and foremost. Let the professionals sort it out. It’s their job, not yours, not the church’s, not the pastor’s, not the elders. Stay out of it, unless you are a WITNESS. Then, if you are a witness, REPORT THE CRIME TO THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES, BYPASSING THE CHURCH. Then, you can inform the church what YOU did to help a child of God in need or distress, and have everyone pat you on the back for a deed well done.
Ed
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Bike Bubba,
NMgirl said:
“BB, I don’t think an institution can repent. I think every individual accused in the report of falling down on the job needs to approach each victim in person and in private and say: I am sorry I failed to protect you.”
I second what she said. Persons repent, organizations don’t. Organizations do not get to heaven or hell, people do.
Ed
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Marsha, if you read my comments, you will see that I have never, ever suggested BJU did nothing wrong. To do so would be to go beyond even BJU’s statements and would be ludicrous. Honestly, you and Ed and a couple of others here should start an exercise class called “jumping to conclusions.” You could have people in Olympic shape in no time.
What I am saying is that it’s too early to judge how seriously they’re taking this. You cannot just turn a key and have a deeply flawed institution immediately knowing exactly what to do. You have to look at the procedures you have, write new ones where necessary, retrain people, and devise a way of monitoring your progress. All of that takes time, and it’s not going to be described in detail at this point in chapel.
In the case of Mr. Berg, his GRACE testimony admits that he had showed a lack of gentleness at times, and the school has withdrawn one of his products already. In other words, they’re changing something already. The trick is to ask what will replace it, and what the results will be.
And that is why they ought to be given some time and whatever guidance those inside and outside feel led to provide.
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Marsha – I think I got it fixed 🙂
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“Jeff, I understand your motivation, but…..isn’t Christianity–the religion you claim to preach–based on something to do with forgiveness for sins and redemption? Aren’t a number of great leaders in Biblical history–Moses, David, Paul–not just sinners, but outright murderers? (a number of the judges, like Gideon and Jepthah, probably qualify as well)”
You are missing the trajectory of God’s redemptive plan in the OT. If David lived today, chances are he would be in prison. To trot out the behavior of OT characters as excuses for such sins now is to totally misunderstand the larger narrative and the very pagan backdrop of the OT. David was a jerk that God used for His redemptive purposes for the Israelites. Same with Moses, etc. Paul did not continue in throwing Christians in prison after Damascus Road. And he did not go around persecuting unconverted Jews, etc.
You are basically advocating the position that salvation brings no change. We can have Christian rapists, murderers, etc. So what was the point of the Cross and Resurrection? It is not about sinless perfect because we live in corrupted bodies on a corrupted earth. But it is about growing in Holiness.
Instead of using the forgiveness hammer here, why not your concern for the salvation of the BJU hard hearts that excuse heinous sin?
Your version of Christianity is not healthy or safe.
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I read very carefully and you said that if anyone had the evidence that Berg’s views were abusive they should provide it to BJU now. Ed and Julie Anne and I are telling you that that has already been done. We are not jumping to conclusions.
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Mr. Berg needs to go.
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Bike Bubba,
The only “retraining” that I see that needs to be done, is to teach people like you to default to dialing 911 in case of an emergency. You need to get the church out of the police business, and let the trained professionals do their jobs.
I don’t think that you need to teach Christians common sense. You need to simply get rid of the evil in the church/school, not re-write standard operationg procedures.
Why are you so afraid to dial 911? Why are you so afraid of the police? Why are you so afraid to contact the police UNLESS you have evidence of something that happened to SOMEONE ELSE?
How would you determine if a woman was raped? Hike up her skirt and see? STOP! Dial 911.
If you don’t trust the cops, tell us. Anarchists don’t trust cops.
Ed
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NMgirl, an institution cannot repent in the same way that an individual can, and you are entirely correct that those who have wronged others in this study should apologize in person. If nobody ever says “I got a call from ….., and he apologized for…..”, yes, there is a problem. The very testimony of named BJU staff, including Jim Berg and others, suggests that this ought to occur, and that we ought to be very suspicious of their repentance if it does not indeed occur.
That said, an institution has a form of repentance where they identify the factors that led people to that course of action. What are the spoken, written, and unspoken assumptions that led us to this point? What can we change here to change our culture?
Sometimes, that will involve removal of personnel, but generally that is done for willful, knowing misconduct. Again, burden of proof. More often, one examines the policies and procedures (or lack thereof) and rewrites them to make sure that people know what is expected, and that expectation becomes part of the “corporate culture.”
So what I mean by BJU’s repentance as an institution is exactly this. Given that people change, what do you do to make the institution as safe as possible?
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Victims:
Don’t let anyone tell you to defer a report of a sexual assault to the authorities until the church discipline process is begun or completed. Valuable evidence such as DNA and the finding of a Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner could be lost. This evidence could be crucial to a successful investigation and prosecution. Any pastor, elder, deacon, bishop or grand vizier who tells you otherwise is wrong.
Bike Bubba:
Repentance, forgiveness etc are part of the process within a church. These procedures should have no bearing on the conduct of an investigation into an allegation of a crime. What scripture supports shielding pedophiles and rapists with the procedures of the church? For that matter any other criminal. It could well be argued that hindering the criminal investigation violates our duties under Romans 13. Further, I don’t see how Duke Lacrosse/Nifong bears on these issues at all.
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Some Christians want a free pass from all worldly consequences because they have repented, as if they were special snowflakes. If Jim Berg is truly sorry, that is a good thing. However, he held himself out as a counseling expert and trained others for decades without bothering to familiarize himself with laws governing his profession or learning about the laws against sexual assault or taking notice of the anguish he was inflicting on abuse victims or learning from others in the field about research based best practices. He does indeed need to go.
If I were a real estate agent and in the decades that I sold homes did not familiarize myself with real estate laws, routinely violated them and took no notice when my actions negatively affected my clients, should I lose my license when my behavior is publicized or can I insist that I am a Christian, I didn’t know any better and I am really sorry and therefore should keep it?
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Keith, repentance and forgiveness have everything to do with criminal justice. Just ask any convicted person whose repentant attitude got him a shorter sentence, or whose angry attitude got him a longer sentence. That’s why prisons are called “correctional” institutions, and why they’re run by the “Department of Corrections.” The goal is not punished criminals (that’s the method), but rather repentant criminals who can be good citizens. Church discipline can come alongside government discipline in these cases. Think Chuck Colson and other prison ministries for examples.
And as I’ve said what seems to be hundreds of times before, this isn’t about shielding anyone. It’s about hearing people out and persuading them to report crimes–isn’t it said that the various forms of sexual assault are among the most under-reported crimes out there? And since anyone the victim talks to is going to be called to the witness stand, one ought to show some empathy by gently asking questions and be a good witness, no?
And regrettably, the Duke lacrosse case is also important here, because many studies are also indicating that the various degrees of sexual assault also suffer from high false reporting rates–some studies (e.g. McDowell and Kanin) indicate that as high as 40% of reports are false. Your asking “who, when, what, where….” could be the difference between liberty and jail (and jailhouse rape, ahem) for someone if their story doesn’t stay consistent. Other current, and infamous, examples include sex offender Lena Dunham and the UVA accuser.
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Bike Bubba: One does not repent to the state. The state does not forgive sin.
Neither Duke Lacrosse/Nifong nor UVa involved meddling by church authorities as far as I know.
Victims: Report sexual assault right away. Don’t let valuable evidence be lost. Don’t let misguided clergy persuade you that “keeping it in the church” is the Christian thing to do.
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Bike Bubba,
It’s not your job to play cop. It’s not your job to prepare a witness. Lawyers do that. Stay out of the justice department. You are not qualified.
It’s not your job to advise anyone when the right time to dial 911 is. It’s not your job to be a grand jury. It’s your job to mind your own business.
We have already been thru the Matthew 18 thing, whereas you delete the word “witness”, and add the word “discipline”, in addition to ignoring the victims God given right to “bind and loose”, which is the victims choice to forgive, or not forgive.
It’s none of your business either way.
It’s not your job to get involved in “reconciling” the victim to the perp. It’s not your job to get involved to ensure that the victim forgives. It’s not your job to control a situation. It’s not your job to dictate to anyone YOUR interpretation of Matthew 18.
Get the church out of the Justice Department business.
Ed
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According to the Grace report, Jim Berg has absolutely no qualifications to deal with sexual assaults. For Bob Jones Jr and Bob Jones 3rd to place him in a position to counsel anyone is a MORAL FAILING. The report also indicates 3rd had intimate knowledge of a sexual assault and expelled the student sending her back to her home church where the perp was the Pastor. This is another MORAL FAILING on 3rds part.
Pages 140,141,142 and 280 highlight some of the more serious failures. This is stunning that a “Christian College” could be this unaware of moral and criminal issues.
BJU continues to exist because it’s supporters excuse away their bad behavior. For a school that demands so much of their students they failed to meet even the minimum requirements to protect students and that is a MORAL FAILING and possibly a CRIMINAL FAILING.
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Keith Blankenship wrote: One does not repent to the state. The state does not forgive sin.
I remember when one person convicted of a crime came before me for sentencing and he told me that since he and I were both Christians I had to forgive him and let him go. When I started to tell him that Christian forgiveness did not affect the state’s actions on criminal punishment, he yelled, “But you have to forgive me!”
I told him that in my role as a judge I did not have the power to forgive him, and then I proceeded with sentencing. I don’t know if he ever understood the difference. It’s not a story I relate with any lightheartedness at all. It’s quite sobering and sad, really.
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He may not have understood the difference, but I’m sure glad you do. It’s important.
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I was waiting for BB to cite McDowell and Kagan. He did not disappoint.
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Thank you, Rachel, for telling your story. I’m sure it will be a blessing to many people.
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Tim,
You had said:
“I remember when one person convicted of a crime came before me for sentencing and he told me that since he and I were both Christians I had to forgive him and let him go. When I started to tell him that Christian forgiveness did not affect the state’s actions on criminal punishment, he yelled, “But you have to forgive me!”
I told him that in my role as a judge I did not have the power to forgive him, and then I proceeded with sentencing. I don’t know if he ever understood the difference. It’s not a story I relate with any lightheartedness at all. It’s quite sobering and sad, really.”
My response:
The way that I read Matthew 18 is that NO ONE except for the victim can forgive. Not a priest, not a judge, no one, but the victim.
And with all this “force the victim to forgive” stuff that I see going on, I see feigned forgiveness, which is to say, no forgiveness at all, which means that the sin is still bound on earth as well as in heaven.
Outside of the victim forgiving, God can forgive, if the person repents to God. That is the real test.
It’s really weird that most perps who force a forgiveness from a victim has absolutely no clue that he really wasn’t forgiven at all. What a surprise that will be on judgment day for the perp. He will try to tell God, “But she forgave me! She had to. Matthew 18 told her to.”
But, God will say, “Bind and Loose, there, buddy! You lose. I now sentence you to everlasting punishment!”
Ed
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David Shaffer,
That seems to be the underlying problem. People are holding positions in religious institutions that they are unqualified for from even the secular world. Pretend lawyers, pretend counselors, etc.
Ed
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Marsha; maybe instead of acting as if that said it all, you could provide other data. Looking up other studies, almost all are much higher than the “official” rate of 2%, which also happens to be the false reporting rate for other violent crimes.
I conclude, not unsurprisingly, that false allegations of sexual assault are a bigger problem than false allegations of other assault, murder, and the like. And it’s worth noting that the rate of non-reporting is pretty high, too.
I then also conclude, contra Ed and Tim, that to ask a few basic reporters’ questions is not trying to play cop or judge, but rather doing my best to be a good witness, and to encourage the victim to actually report the crime.
This last part is key, because statistically speaking, a great portion of victims do not want to report the crime to authorities. You need to persuade them to do so, and if you want to get a chance at persuading, you need to listen and ask appropriate questions. Who, what, where, how…..and who do you want to be with you when you go to the police?
Sorry, Tim and Ed, but you’re missing the personal side of this sort of thing. Kinda like Jim Berg admitted.
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Bike Bubba,
In this case, the crime BJU seems to have committed against Miss Patrick is that they assumed that her difficulties resulted from a moral and spiritual deficiency on her part–basically by jumping to conclusions.
How is depression or attempted suicide due to rape ever a moral or spiritual deficiency. First Miss Patrick told people what had happened to her. They did nothing helpful whatsoever. They made her feel as if she brought it on herself because she was not moral or spiritual enough. That is not how rape works. The perp that attacked this young woman is the problem. She needed to have hand holding, someone to take her to the police station. Those in authority should have been immediately notified and they in turn should have notified all students and parents. The girls name would be kept out of it, but they should in no way have covered this up and allowed another person to suffer the same fate.
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Bike Bubba,
And regarding the case of clear abuse committed by the church; yes, I think it’s appropriate that there be actual evidence that a rape occurred before involving the police.
So a woman goes to the hospital, tells them that she has been raped, are they suppose to notify the church first before bringing in a rape kit and the police? I don’t understand your way of thinking at all. The person being attacked is being revictimized by the church.
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Dial 911 first and foremost. Let the professionals sort it out. It’s their job, not yours, not the church’s, not the pastor’s, not the elders. Stay out of it, unless you are a WITNESS. Then, if you are a witness, REPORT THE CRIME TO THE LOCAL AUTHORITIES, BYPASSING THE CHURCH. Then, you can inform the church what YOU did to help a child of God in need or distress, and have everyone pat you on the back for a deed well done.
Amen, Ed!!!
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Bike Bubba said the following:
“I then also conclude, contra Ed and Tim, that to ask a few basic reporters’ questions is not trying to play cop or judge, but rather doing my best to be a good witness, and to encourage the victim to actually report the crime. ”
It’s not your job to play a reporter, either. It’s not your job to even get involved, period. And yes, you are playing cop and judge. You even play grand jury. Stay out of it.
It is the duty of the cops to determine facts, not you.
It’s not your job to involve yourself into something that doesn’t involve you.
Stay out of it.
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I will go ahead and respond even though it will take some time, at least a couple of posts, and you will reject what I have to say as you always do.
First the McDowell article. It was published in an obscure journal in 1985. I doubt you’ve actually read it as it is very hard to find. McDowell is hardly the unbiased researcher; he is contemptuous of women who report rape. In a seminar given in 1992 for the Air Force, McDowell contended that women who report being raped fall into one of three categories, sociopaths, narcissists, or immature, impulsive inadequate types.
In this study, McDowell examined the records of 556 rape allegations. He was unable to make a judgment about 256 of them and so excluded them from analysis. Of the remaining 300 cases, 81 women withdrew their complaints which he took to mean that the women had lied. Considering how the military has punished women rape victims, I would not conclude that a woman not wishing to proceed means that she had not been raped.
McDowell then concluded that an additional 99 women had lied. How did he do that? By using his infamous 57 question checklist. He designed this checklist based on his own ideas of what real rape looks like and factors he believes characterizes liars, with no independent verification from research. I will describe this checklist in my next post.
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Brenda
I kinda gotta disagree that the first place that a person goes to is the hospital. If you dial 911, they will make sure that you get to the hospital.
All that is needed from the beginning is an allegation. Evidence is gathered by the authorities. The hospital’s reports are evidence in which will be given to the authorities.
However, the hospital will not keep secrets, either. If the victim was indeed raped based on the hospital records, the victim has no say in the matter. It’s gonna be reported. Right?
Ed
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Ed,
I don’t believe I said that going to a hospital was the rule of thumb. I was giving a “for instance” question. If a person goes anywhere that has authority to deal with a rape it would be a hospital/medical facility or the police. A hospital is equipped to gather medical evidence from the persons body and clothing. The police cannot do a large portion of that. If the person called 911 the police and an ambulance may be called. The police could meet them at the hospital. I suppose that depends on where you live and where the assault took place. A Dr. is going to do the medical exam not the police.
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Brenda,
But, the police and the hospital work together. We should never have to do our evidence gathering BEFORE we dial 911. We dial 911 and let the authorities do their own evidence gathering from the hospital. That’s their job. We shouldn’t tell the authorities how to do their job, nor pretend to be smarter than they are. They know what they are doing. Trust them.
Ed
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Jim Berg needs to just resign from his current position.
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brian, I agree. He has done far too much emotional and spiritual damage. He has no business counseling, period.
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The checklist consists of 57 questions. A ‘wrong answer’ is worth between 1/2 a point to 5 points, depending on the questions. Interestingly, a score of 0 to 15 points rates the case as equivocal, a significant slip suggesting that ALL reports of rape are questionable but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant a half point to 15 points. 16-35 points mean that the claim of rape is probably false. 36-75 is definitely a false allegation. More than that is not only false but called ‘overkill.’
If a woman says she was raped at gunpoint, she is awarded 3 points. If she says she fought vigorously she is awarded 3 points. Does she say that the assailant did NOT rape her anally? Another point. Does she say that she was NOT forced to perform oral sex? Half a point. Was she abducted and taken elsewhere? Half a point. Did she recognize where she was taken to be raped? No? Three points. Does she have light scratches on her breasts, stomach, face, neck or thighs? If so, 5 points. Now we are up to 16 points. McDowell already ‘knows’ the woman is probably a liar from just these seven questions and there are FIFTY others. Oh and if there are scratches crossing the nipples, lips, or eyes, add another three points.
Other signs that a woman is lying include claiming that the assailant was of a different race or ethnic group (1/2 pt) or that there were multiple assailants (1/2) or that the assailant looked unsavory (1/2 pt). It is a bad sign if the assailant tried to avoid detection because the victim will get half a point each for reporting a mask or gloves.
What kind of women lie about rape? According to McDowell, they are women with financial problems (1 pt), a history of medical problems (2 pts), work problems (2 pts), problems with a boyfriend or husband (3 pts), a history of mental problems (3 pts) or alcohol abuse (3 pts). If she was intoxicated at the time of the assault that’s another 3 points. And it is really bad (5 points) if the rape could be thought to solve a problem for the assailant such as explaining why she wasn’t home on time or a subsequent pregnancy.
Rape victims better not ask for a female doctor to do the exam or ask to be interviewed by a female officer (1 point). And she should not let a friend, neighbor or family member call 911 for her because that is 3 points.
Unequivocally I have NO confidence in McDowell’s work.
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No, Ed. I don’t disagree with you. I just don’t think that calling 911 direct is the only option. A rape victim may not feel comfortable that way. She may call a friend or relative first and then go to authorities. She may be so ashamed that she runs in and takes a shower to take away the stain she feels is her fault. Not the best way to handle the situation, but when you’ve just been raped you are not in a clear frame of mind. Self guilt and shame can be a problem for a victim. I do agree that the church, elders etc. needs to stay out of it. I am not going to “should” a victim though. It was done way too many times to me and I don’t wan to do it to another person.
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Brenda,
It’s the only option taught to children at a very young age. They know what 911 is for. It’s the right thing to do. I agree with you about the “apprehension” that a victim has in doing so, but, the perp has the opportunity to get away with it based on that apprehension. I’m extremely surprised that Christians are so afraid to call the authorities. And Bike Bubba is part of the problem as to why they are afraid. To him, it’s not the godly Christian way, which further puts guilt on the victim is she “gets the courage” to dail 911, going against Bike Bubba’s procedures. I’m really flabbergasted at that to the point of puking.
Ed
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I forgot my personal ‘favorite’ 3 point indicator that a woman is lying: if before during or after the rape she says she received a written communication from the assailant that rhymed. I guess rapists cannot or do not rhyme? New to me.
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Does anyone think I need to take on the equally crappy Kanin study tonight? Like Ed, I am on the verge of puking.
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Ed,
I agree with you there as well. I don’t like the “Christian” way of keeping the police out of the picture. I also understand the victims emotional part of this. I don’t ever think that Christendum should interfere with the law of the land in criminal cases. That is just plain wrong. They need to stay out of the way. I was not agreeing with BB’s way of thinking at all. Being trained to call 911 and actually thinking that way when emergency actually happens are 2 different things when it is happening to you. If I knew then, what I know now the X would have been in jail many years ago.
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Brenda R said,
I came across this off and on, while glancing over different Christian sites the past several years, some sites pertaining to depression, or on grief.
There was one discernment site I visited, run by two guys who claimed to be Christians, and they seemed to suggest that “real” Christians will never have mental health problems (such as depression).
I wanted to confirm that my understanding of this was correct, so I e-mailed the two site guys. They replied back to me that yes, if I have depression, I am not “saved” and I have never really been a Christian.
So, there are some self professing Christians who believe this way, if you struggle with some issue or another, they take it as evidence that you are not truly saved.
But their view goes against portions of the Bible, including the words of Christ who said, “In this life you will have many troubles.”
Jesus no where promised people who follow him they will have a life of ease, devoid of depression, or other problems.
But I keep seeing some Christians who operate under this idea that having problems or pain (emotional or physical) is evidence that you’re not an actual Christian. Jesus said being saved was about believing in Him, he never said you have to have a problem or pain free life to qualify for salvation or to prove you are saved.
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chapmaned24 said,
If you visit the last thread or the one before this one, you can see Bike Bubba thinks highly of nouthetic counseling, despite the fact I pointed out to him twice in that thread that it does not work, nor does watered- down, run- of- the- mill Christian tips and advice on how to deal with certain problems in life (such as anxiety attacks or depression).
Usual Christian counseling amounts to plenty of victim-blaming, and ineffective (yes, I said ineffective) things like, “Just trust in Jesus,” “Attend church,” “Volunteer at a charity,” “Pray every day.”
All the praying and faith I used to have sure as heck never helped me with my problems (chief among them at one time was depression). I had to find other means to escape depression.
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Daisy,
The site guys who don’t think that Christians should not have problems or can be depressed are not out of the ordinary. I know people who think that being bipolar. depressed, schizophrenic or having PTSD is all proof that you cannot be a Christian. I have heard people say that someone was not a Christian because they were divorced. Well, that would make me a child of Satan. I would have liked to have had a good Christian nondestructive marriage, but it didn’t happen. There is pain, anxiety, depression and then more hurt in this life. We live in a fallen world. People who gave such terrible counsel in BJU and places like it or helped cover it up should be fired and possibly prosecuted, depending on the circumstances. I am a strong believer of rape being equal to murder. No statute of limitations. As long as there is physical evidence you will always be hunted down like the dog you are.
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Brenda, I agreed with your post right above mine here.
I read through about one fourth of the GRACE report on BJU (or maybe more – I stopped to read the footnotes at the bottom of the page). I also skipped forward to read a bit more, and I’ve read some highlights of the GRACE report on other blogs.
Having skimmed down several of the exchanges between Bike Bubba and a few other people here, I don’t think Bike Bubba has stopped to consider or be concerned about the culture of BJU (and conservative Christianity in general) that gave rise to a sexual assault, and ‘blame women for being raped,’ paradigms.
I said on the other blog several days ago I think that some of these problems in BJU stems from their sexist (gender complementarian) views about men, women, and sex, and so, they are not likely to eradicate their problems, for that would mean them having to ditch what they believe to be true about “biblical womanhood and manhood”.
For example, the BJU guys seem to feel that a woman can prevent being raped, if she only just avoids doing certain behaviors, being at certain places, or avoids wearing certain types of clothing.
And if a woman is raped on their campus of before she arrives at BJU, they assume it must be precisely because she wanted to be attacked, or she deserved it, because she was walking home alone after dark, or was wearing a short skirt, or whatever.
BJU (like a lot of conservative Christian culture) also tends to teach erroneous things, like all men have huge sexual appetites and are incapable of controlling their behavior.*
Christians, like the ones who administer BJU, have a lot of unbiblical, warped views about sexuality, women, men, dating, compassion, etc.
————————
*By the way, that men supposedly are such big sex fiends (at least, according to some Christians, including ones who believe in gender complementarianism – I am not saying I personally believe this to be true of men) means they should stop insisting that men should be in authority over women.
If men are incapable of controlling their libido and behavior, they have no business in being a “head” over a wife or controlling women in church or anywhere.
Why would you argue that a bunch of sex perverts who are so apt to rape any woman in sight (i.e., the entire heterosexual male gender) get to have control over wives and other women? But plenty of gender complementarian Christians often argue those very points.
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Regarding my comment of,
“BJU (like a lot of conservative Christian culture) also tends to teach erroneous things, like all men have huge sexual appetites and are incapable of controlling their behavior.*”
If that idea and ones pertaining to it are not taught point-blank by Christians aloud, those ideas are often unspoken assumptions behind a lot of attitudes about women, sex, dating, men, rape, etc.
I see these assumptions turn up in blogs, sermons, books, and magazine articles I’ve read by Christians since my teen years and in my adulthood about marriage, dating, how men are, how women typically are, etc.
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RE. Marsha’s posts about that McDowell guy. Based on your description, he sounds like an unqualified hack and a misogynist.
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Daisy, you will not be surprised to learn that his thirty year old ‘study’ is quoted all over the Men’s Rights websites.
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Marsha,
That checklist by McDowell is disgusting and utterly incomprehensible. Where on earth did he get it from? Did he just yank those criteria out of thin air, or his hat? Or out of someplace more unmentionable? Reading that revolting list reminded me of a certain cult leader, who just made up completely unscientific notions and called it “research”.
And you say Kanin is just as bad? I’d better wait to read the details — I’m going out for lunch soon, and I want to be able to keep it down.
Bubba, I hope you have better support than this for your 40% false reporting stat. From where I sit, McDowell is utterly unreliable, and Marsha doesn’t seem to think much more of Kanin. Did you even know about McDowell’s ignorant checklist and misogynistic attitudes when you cited him?
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Oh, so McDowell is a darling of the “manosphere”? Shock-a-roo.
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My holistic, integrative doctor is in Greenville. I see him every few months and we have had a number of interesting discussions. He is not a Christian, but he questioned me a while back, “Joyelle, you’re a Christian, right? Do you know much about BJU?” I chuckled. He continued, “I have been wondering what goes on at that place… I have a number of patients with serious illnesses who are associated with BJU , and their stress levels are through the roof! Their environment is anything but peace and love… So if it’s a Christian school, why aren’t my patients stable? Why don’t they seem emotionally and mentally healthy?…” I asked him if those were rhetorical questions. He sighed and shook his head.
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I was just skimming news headlines and saw this:
–How economic theory can help stop sexual assault– (link is to page on PBS page)
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Serving kids in Japan, a lot of these factors he just pulled out of the … air. No one has collected any data on rapists sending rhymed messages, for example probably because it isn’t commonly reported but considering that serial killers have to known to taunt the police or victims’ families about their crimes, it wouldn’t surprise me if a rapist sent a taunting rhyme. Other factors represent an unwarranted extrapolation from actual data. For example, most rapes are intra-racial so he gives lack-of-credibility points to a victim reporting interracial rape. But we know from cases of serial rape where the rapist was identified through DNA that interracial rape does occur so there is no reason to suspect that a woman who says her attacker was of another race is lying. Guns are used by rapists about 10 percent of the time but that doesn’t mean that someone reporting a gun is a liar. Rape by a single offender is more common than gang rape, but again gang rape does occur.
McDowell is claiming a 60 percent rate of false accusation. Kanin’s study ‘found’ 41 percent.
McDowell is an Air Force officer and the checklist has his name and the Pentagon’s on it. I don’t know if it is currently being used to screen out cases but I know that it was being used as recently as 2004 since military victims were protesting its use that year. I read one article today which said that the military had been screening out 46 percent of reports of rape as not being worthy of further investigation. It didn’t say if the checklist was involved.
Turning to all sexual offenses (rape and less serious offenses), here is an interesting fact. While there are fewer women in the military and they are disproportionately likely to be victims of sexual offenses the actual number of men reporting sexual offenses is close to the actual number of women reporting in the military.
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That’s not a surprising response, Joyelle. To have to deny self, be under the control of a system, and live in legalism is emotionally draining and no doubt there would be physically straining.
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Joyelle,
The kind of behavior that has come from BJU doesn’t give a nonbeliever much reason to turn to Christ. What a sad situation.
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Okay, now to Kanin’s 1994 study. He looked at the police files of 109 cases of rape reported to the police in a small Midwestern city over a nine year period. He concluded that the rate of false reporting was 41 percent based on 45 of the women withdrawing their complaint. The study was entirely based on what was written in the files. He didn’t interview any of the women or accompany the police on any investigations.
The first problem is that Kanin won’t tell us what city it was so no one can comment based on their own research into police practices in that city or their own independent review of the files. No one can talk to rape crisis workers and see what their take is.
The second problem is that the city appears to be atypical in two ways. Kanin tells us that there are 70,000 police in that city. During the time period studied, 1979-1987, the national rate of rape reports was around 2.5 per 1,000 people. Were this city average, there would have been around 175 reports a year, not 12. Now Kanin says that the rate of all felonies in this city was low but the number of rape cases strikes me as very low even for a low crime city.
Perhaps there was some reason that women were reluctant to report rape in that city and that brings me to the second way that this city differed. Contrary to the recommendation of the International Association of Police Chiefs, this city routinely demanded that all women reporting rape pass a polygraph test. This is not recommended for two reasons. First because it is not routinely done for other complainants and secondly because the results are not reliable since rape victims often blame himselves and complicate the interpretation of the results (I shouldn’t have: left that window open, stayed out so late, gone back to his apartment etc.).
Not only was this police department doing polygraphs, they were warning women that they would prosecute them for filing a false report. The recantations in the study followed or preceded the polygraph at the beginning of an investigation, not as a result of the police finding contrary facts as an investigation proceeded.
So again, I have no confidence that these statistics are either representative of national statistics or represent the actual percentage of lying women as opposed to women withdrawing their complaints because of the way police were treating them.
My house was burglarized. I was not polygraphed or warned of the penalties for filing a false report even though there are people who do that to commit insurance fraud. The police were very nice to me and the insurance company paid my claim (which was in fact accurately made) without my having to prove that I owned the stolen items. Why was that? I suspect because I am a middle class woman and police think that women like me reporting burglaries are truthful.
Interestingly, rape complaintants in that city were similar. They were white, poor, young (around 22) and modestly educated. That is a very restricted group compared to survey data. Perhaps middle class and older women were aware that police were skeptical in that city as indicated by the polygraph requirement and did not report and the characteristics of the reporting group – young and poor – made them seem less credible to the police.
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“This last part is key, because statistically speaking, a great portion of victims do not want to report the crime to authorities. You need to persuade them to do so, and if you want to get a chance at persuading, you need to listen and ask appropriate questions. Who, what, where, how…..and who do you want to be with you when you go to the police?”
Oh dear. Please don’t do this. if you have an inkling a crime has been committed you call the authorities. Period. Rape is a CRIME. . the victim has the right to not cooperate if she does not want to. you should not ” persuade” a victim of anything. and asking a ton of questions like that is inappropriate for many reasons. There are pros who know what they are doing so call the police who have people on staff trained in this.
I was on the board of a rape crisis crisis and spouse abuse center. it was people who think like you who caused the biggest problems in the long run. Especially pastors!!
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Lydia,
But he is insisting that Matthew 18 tells him to do it this way. How do you “persuade” him that Matthew 18 states no such thing. According to BB, his goal is to reconcile the victim to the perp and force a forgiveness so that the perp can stay in the church, or else punishment would go to the victim if she doesn’t forgive. Not forgiving is the bigger crime here. His questions are not for comfort to the victim, but his questions are a cross examination of the victim.
I really think that the following is the REAL problem to the whole thing, because the following is what is being taught to many people in church, because Matthew Henry told them so.
Now I am understanding that he thinks, as Matthew Henry points out, that 2 Corinthians chapter 2 is RELATED to 1 Corinthians Chapter 5, which all ties into Matthew 18. I do not agree with this at all. If you go to the thread “Some Pastors think that they can control the details of your lives…”, you will see my rebuttal to that thought. Keep in mind, when you read my rebuttal, that he thinks that the ecclesia has the authority to forgive sins that was not perpetrated upon them personally. So, according to Matthew Henry, and BB, the church has the obligation to forgive the guy in 1 Cor 5, because, according to Matthew Henry, 2 Cor 2 states just that. And, I disagree with that, and in the thread that I mentioned, I explain why.
Ed
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chapmaned24 said,
Considering how often so many Christians – even well meaning ones – constantly misapply, misinterpret, or misuse the Bible, I sometimes feel culture would be better off if Christians stopped using it as the end- all, be- all bench mark of everything in all situations.
(And I’m someone who does respect the Bible and the notion of “sola scriptura.”)
However, and as I was just saying in a long post on a former thread here, Christian teachings (which are usually based on messed-up understandings of the Bible or passages in the Bible) kept me trapped in depression and anxiety well up into my early 40s.
I have actually had to reject a lot of the Christian teachings (which are based on faulty biblical interpretations or applications) I was brought up with, in order to become healthy and well.
So many Christians get so wrapped up in wondering “what is the biblical way of handling situation X?” or “what is the most God pleasing solution to this? (whatever “this” refers to)” that they become blinded to the most obvious, common sense solutions and reactions.
If I see a house on fire, I will dial 9-1-1 and get the fire department to show up and handle the first.
I’m not going to phone my local church preacher first and ask him what I should do. I am not going to run home and look up Bible verses in the Bible to see what the Bible says about burning houses.
The majority of American Christians however, will get spiritually anal retentive, and open a Bible up to see how the “Bible” says they should handle this.
Then they arrive at some weirdo understanding (and they will claim this is based on The Bible), like,
“Gee, the guy that owns this house that is burning down is a sinner. He probably brought the fire on himself – fell asleep while smoking, maybe?- so I best not interfere with this. It may be God’s plan for this guy’s house to burn. I should probably request a meeting with the church elders to discuss the best biblical way of taking care of this.”
And off that Christian goes, while the atheist neighbor whips out his phone and calls the fire department.
Jesus may ask at that point,
“Tell me, which of those two men was acting like a neighbor to the guy with the house on fire, the Christian who justified his inaction on faulty biblical interpretation and who did nothing because he was preoccupied with spiritual navel gazing…
Or the atheist dude who doesn’t give a whit about the Bible and spirituality and just did what needed to be done because, he was all like, “Dang, if that was MY house I know I would appreciate someone calling the fire department to put it out?”???
See, so many Christians get so anal retentive in their thinking, they neglect the obvious or most pertinent aspects of the Bible’s teaching – the Bible they claim to revere and study so much.
I see so many Christians who would rather waste time reading, nit picking about, and studying the Bible, instead of taking what they already know of its basic teachings and putting those into actual practice. It’s ironic and kind of sad, since real people get hurt by this behavior.
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“Manosphere” as in PUA Male Supremacists with a real axe to grind about anything female?
P.S. From that checklist, I wonder if McDowell was a serial rapist himself who just never got caught.
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Honorary Doctorates?
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Have any of you attended a church where a rape has occurred within your congregation? And both the victim, and the perpetrator were the siblings of prominent families in high leadership positions? Have any of you witnessed the “disciplining process” that is held in high esteem by a conservative pastor and his leadership team? Or should I say “lack of discipline” towards the criminal and the “lack of compassion, support, and prayer” from the Baptist arm of the law?
Have any of you participated in a congregation where those in leadership positions do most of their lobbying dirty work behind the scenes via special meetings, telephone conversations, and other “private” social venues to drum up support for their favorite family, depending on which side they choose to believe? Simply stated, if you are the victim and your family is “hated” within that particular church system, you will never receive proper justice regardless of the evidence presented. However, if you are well liked and have been a works gospel family, the rapist will held in high esteem because no one will believe that type of prodigy comes out of such a “godly?” family.
I have sat under this type of leadership for years have watched and experienced those “who know the LORD better than anyone else” do their wicked bidding. The aftermath of their religious storms is heartbreaking with its victims left for dead; so much for “bearing one another’s burdens” there. And if you make the right choice in defending the rape victim, you are cast into the lake alongside the suffering young lady, her family, and a few others who are loving on the “least of these.”
After having witnessed this injustice in my former Baptist church, I will publicly confess, that a pastor, church leadership (church boards, or elders, or deacons and deaconesses) are the very LAST people that I would choose to confide in regarding issues involving crime. The majority are not equipped spiritually, nor trained professionally to deal with crimes of this nature. And within church systems, from what I have witnessed all of my adult years of attending churches, life becomes more of a popularity contest with leadership lording over people rather than being what Jesus, the Christ, called us to be…..denying ourselves and becoming servants to those in need.
I have seen and experienced the hard way, that those the “churched” label as “unchurched,” are actually more loving and supportive, fair and balanced than their religious facades. How can this be? Because Jesus does not live in buildings made with human hands, the brick and the mortar; He lives by the power of God, the Holy Spirit, in individuals who are the New Covenant temples. So unchurched 501c. 3 people can be a wonderful source of Biblical comfort to those who are suffering, hurting, and are desperately in need of support, love, and encouragement, especially in their faith in Christ alone. And these individuals make wonderful use of the resources made available to the public, whether civil or religious in nature.
And to those who have suffered via religionists with no heart, I want to share one of my son’s favorite memory verses and I believe all of you know this one; “Jesus wept.”
The shortest verse in the Bible, which is probably why he chose that one to memorize…pretty simple indeed. To all of those people who claim that individuals are “not saved” if they experience certain sufferings in this life, may I offer encouragement to truly read the pages of Scripture and ask God, the Holy Spirit, to reveal His Truth to you, rather than what the lies of your own mind are whispering to you. I pray that on that day when suffering and sickness overwhelm your body and mind, that God will pour out His mercy and grace upon your cold and hardened soul, and that He will place true, born again believers in your presence to minister His love to you. It may be the only way that you will see Him.
“And Jesus said, All authority in heaven and earth has been given to Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always to the close of the age.” Matthew 28: 18-20. Jesus still has authority over all things all the while we give the enemy/wicked people way too much credit.
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If any pastor, church staff member or in some states church member attempts to persuade a crime victim NOT to report the crime ( like Sovergn GraceLESS of Fairfax, Virginia did) they are setting the church up for a huge legal problem. In every state they are committing the very serious crime of obstruction of justice. In cases where a child is raped some state legislatures have made that a capital offense ( death penalty elegible ). So in this case someone could be charged with obstructing justice in a capital matter. That carries a possible 25 year sentence in many States.
Perhaps we need to see that happen a few times in this country to get our clergy to shape up and quit putting their church’s reputation or other selfish interests ahead of Justice and PROTECTING THE VICTM ! The church is NOT the victim and not more important than the actual victim . How can be expect God to bless our church if we are covering up serious sex offenses or sitting back and not confronting leadership for this sinful, inexcusable behavior ?
We should be picketing Sovergn Grace type churches, their conventions and “universities” like BJU. I’m afraid this manner of dealing with campus rape is more common than we would ever think.
In Virginia we have this scumbag Jesse Leroy Matthews Jr. indicted for kidnapping, rape and murder. DNA has linked him to several other rapes and a possibly another unsolved murder. He was on a football scholarship at LIBERTY UNIVERSITY for three years before being kicked out over allegations of sex crimes. He then went to another college and did the same thing. Finally he murdered Fairfax County resident and Va tech student Morgan Harrington.
Disclosure: Scumbag Matthews jr has NOT been convicted yet. However DNA evidence doesn’t lie ( unless you are OJ simpson and have a 10 million dollar legal defense). Hopefully we will see this BUM in the death chamber sooner than later.
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Scott,
Bike Bubba wants to see the evidence first. People like Jesse Leroy Matthews Jr. can’t go to jail unless Bike Bubba approves.
Ed
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Just like Sony Pictures can’t release a picture unless Beloved Leader Comrade Kim Jong-Un approves.
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Today is Sunday, and as the ekklesia of our LORD Himself, His called out ones, His assembly as witnesses unto Him alone for our redemption and salvation;
Let us humble ourselves before our Father in our prayer closets, so there is no circus side show before man as to “how spiritual we are” for He knows the hearts and minds of every man, woman, and child….and let us sincerely pray for all of those who are suffering from sexual abuse of any kind for they are not, nor ever were deserving of such evil from another human being. May the tears that we shed while praying, identify with their pain and suffering as compassion and empathy flow from our hearts in crying out, “How can this be LORD, how can this be?” And as we pray for His justice to reign down, let us petition on the victim’s behalf, for complete healing and well being through Jesus Christ, who will be giving all those/us who are born again of His Spirit, new bodies, pure and holy as they/we live with Him forever in eternity. Lord, we love You and we know that You hear the prayers of the righteous, no, not the self righteous, but those who know that any righteousness that does exist in us, comes only from You, alone. Please comfort all of those who are suffering and hurting through the power of Your Holy Spirit and help them to lead lives of victory, for at the end of the day, we are all so desperately in need of You.
In the precious Name of Jesus, we pray. Amen.
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“Not forgiving is the bigger crime here.”
This is what SGM taught. And they are a cult. They turn the Cross into a cruel monster and totally ignore the Resurrection and what it means.
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Katy,
Amen.
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You know, Ed….one would think Jesus would have practiced Matthew 18 on the Pharisees. But He did not. Instead He indicted them as a group yet answered questions one on one. Wonder why?
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I kinda detest so-called “church discipline.” Lots of Spiritual Abuse…
The way it’s taught, practiced, by “pastors addicted to Exercising Authority.”
And, since it’s NOT in the Bible, there is NO way to KNOW the right way.
But – Secretly, I would like to see it practiced by denominations on clergy.
Are denominations? clergy? in the Bible? NO? Oh what-ever…
Denominations, clergy, say, 1 Cor 5:9-13, has to do with “church discipline.”
Why do they NOT apply it to the many flawed pastor/leader/reverends?
Maybe – Too many empty pulpits? Yes? 🙂
Paul, in verse 11, says…
NOT to keep company, “IF any man” that is called a brother be a…
1 – fornicator – male prostitute, unlawful sexual intercourse.
2 – covetous – one eager to have more, greedy of gain.
3 – idolater – server of idols, worshippers of Mammon, false gods.
4 – railer – complain or protest strongly and persistently about.
…………….. criticize in an abusive or angrily insulting manner.
5 – drunkard – a person who is habitually drunk.
6 – extortioner – the practice of obtaining money through force or threats.
with such an one NO not to eat.
Seems, many pastor/leader/reverends are exposed in 1 Cor 5:9-13.
But – Who will “excommunicate” them? The Denominations?
NOT likely… Too many empty pulpits… 😉
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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I’d like to see this list enforced in “Today’s Corrupt Religious System.” The 501 (c) 3, Non-Profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation, the IRS calls church. They’ll be a lot more empty empty pulpits. 😉
1 – fornicator
Lot’s of Pastors running away with the church secretary. Having affairs with a male masseuse. Having a problem with porn. Stats are 35-50% Pastors battle with Porn. Over 33% admit to haveing an affair.
Will they remove themselves? Will the denominations?
Lot’s of empty pulpits on the way if this is enforced.
2 – covetous
For “Titles” NOT found in the Bible. For Power, Profit, Prestige, Glory, Honor, that comes with the “Titles.” For Celebrity. To be well known and have “Recognition” as a “Christian Leader.” Who gets to decide if a Pastor is greedy for gain, covetous, in these area’s?
Will the “covetous” remove themselves? Will the denominations?
Don’t hold your breath. NOT likely.
Lot’s of empty pulpits on the way if this is enforced.
3 – idolaters
Making “Idols” of their “Titles ” and “Reputation.” And put that “Title” “Pastor” with their name, every place to be seen. On office walls, office doors, Sunday morning bulletin’s, sermons, books, street side signs, business cards, websites, speaking conferences, as guest speaker, along with all their degrees and accomplishments. Sounds like they’re speaking of themselves and seeking their own glory. When their “Title” and “Position” becomes an “Idol?”
Will the “idolaters” remove themselves? Will the denominations?
Lot’s of empty pulpits on the way if this is enforced.
4 – railer
How many pastor/leader/reverends are blaming bloggers for exposing their flaws and “criticize in an abusive or angrily insulting manner.” How many pastor/leader/reverends who do NOT like you asking hard questions, do NOT like you to disagree, and, “criticize in an abusive or angrily insulting manner.”
Will the “railers” remove themselves? Will the denominations?
Lot’s of empty pulpits on the way if this is enforced.
6 – extortioner
Heard Pastors say, if you don’t tithe, give ten percent of your gross income, to this church, you’re robbing God and
you’re under a curse. And further more, it’s to be tithes and offerings, the tithe is the minimum, offerings are over and above. Hmmm? Sounds like “the practice of obtaining money through force or threats.”
But – Will the “extortioners” remove themselves? Probable not.
Lot’s of empty pulpits on the way if this is enforced.
How many of these “pastor/elder/overseers” do you eat with? 😉
I follow Paul’s advice and do not keep company with these…
Fornicating, Covetous, Idol worshipping, Railers, and Extorioners. 😉
I do keep company with pastors who are burnt out, can’t do it anymore, and realize, **they have believed the lie,** they’re a special clergy class, they’re called, they’re leaders, they’re pastors, they’re responsible.
That’s when the healing of their broken hearts begin…
When they recognise the lie, and repent…
Healing and a new life is sent…
The Lord is that Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is
there is liberty. AAAHHH!!! Freedom…
Thank You Jesus…
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I wonder if Christian reluctance to treat self professing Christians the same (as Non Christians) for wrong doing stems from not just what I talked about abovehere, but other things.
I know there are Bible verses that talk about how Christians should really ought not to sue one another, and their behavior should be different from the world’s,.
But then there are Christians who seem to have a weird idea about sins (crimes) committed by other Christians or on church grounds. They seem to think there is some special exemption if a crime is done inside a church building.
A retired police officer, who now consults with churches on church safety, notices the same thing. He has been interviewed on Christian TV several times.
When it comes to safety, Christians have the same weird ideas. The retired cop now safety consultant said he has to drill it into the heads of Christians that there is nothing sacred or special about a building with a steeple or cross on top.
He says crime can hit you just as easy at a church building as anywhere else, including your house, your job, at the shopping mall, where ever.
He says Christians have a superstitious view of church buildings. They think if they are heading to church, in the church parking lot, or in the church building, God will specially protect them. He says this is not so.
He reeled off a list of crimes, including murder, that he knows of that happened at churches.
He says a lot of suicides happen at churches. He said it’s common for a preacher or church staff to show up early to a church building, walk inside, and find a dead body swinging from a rope in the worship area or some other room in the church.
Sometimes violent people bring guns to churches and shoot at church goers. He told of one teen girl who drove a troubled 50 something man to a church. Soon as they pulled into the church lot, the guy shoved his way over into the driver seat and ran over the girl killing her.
I wonder if some of these ideas spill over into other areas. Like, because, let’s say for instance, the child molesting happened in the choir room of the church building, that Christians think that should be handled differently than say the perp who fondles a kid at a Sears store in the mall or at a McDonald’s restaurant.
Some Christians seem to think there is something special or different about a building with a steeple on top, and hence, they apply different standards to situations involving it, than they would with a secular building or secular person. And I find this really, really strange.
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“Be angry and do not sin.” Psalm 4:4
I have to remind myself of this teaching in Scriptures when I speak of two friends who were brutally beaten and raped by abusive, sick men. And I have witnessed the response by the churched, those who profess to know Christ better than those of us who no longer attend 501c. 3 religious organizations, of which I say “hogwash!” Within two separate denominational systems, I watched as the clegy and leadership systems swept these incidents under the rug trying in vain to keep these crimes “hush, hush.” This is where “righteous anger” is appropriate when dealing with clergy systems as well as the wicked leadership, for their main goal is not to minister to the hurting young lady, the victim, their first priority lies in protecting the reputation of their particular church system, college, etc. “What will this look like to the public once word gets around about the rape crimes wihin our congregation? We must protect our church at all costs!” This applies to religious colleges, organizations, television, etc. And the victim never sees godly justice done within the religious system, so we can quote Scriptures all we want, but ultimately the favoritism of man enters in and the rapists are defended and placed back into leadership postitions. And to add insult to injury, I was personally called by deaconesses within the church who despised the victims and their families long before I attended their churches, trying to persuade me of the innocence of the rapistand the guilt of the victim! “Be angry and do not sin……” says the LORD. .
How can this be? Most of the wicked intentions take place behind closed doors as we are then required by these evil doers, to choose sides. Telephones, cell phones and the internet system spread this poison quite beautifully, meanwhile the victim continues to suffer, often secretly desiring to end their own lives, for no one will listen and no one will believe them. “Be angry and do not sin….” says the LORD.
The welfare of the individual is not important when compared to the “common good” of the group, thus ignoring the teachings of Jesus Christ when He approached individuals personally, ministering His Bread of Life to them. He cares for each soul because He made each one of us in His image to begin with. Chuch systems/clergy/leadership in most churches I have attended, take it upon themselves in choosing who is “more special” and “more valuable” in accomplishing “the vision” of its worldly affairs. And the suffering, the hurting, the oppressed and the poor are cast aside like garbage fodder into the road ditches. And thus, man then becomes his own god and follows not the leading of God, the Holy Spirit, but his own false theologies in believing they are little gods listening to familiar spirits.
I hear often from those in my former church, how we need to minister to the unchurched to get them to go to church. And my response is, “What for?” When I see and hear the love of man has grown cold and the itching ears desire a juicy gossip story….and I see no tears, no love, no empathy or compassion, no time for a listening ear in bearing one another’s burdens, no repentance, and no real, genuine care or prayers for the hurting souls, within the church systems, then one begins to wonder, “I find more genuine love and fellowship amongst the born again believers who don’t attend a 501. c. 3.”
I have not in all of my earthly days, witnessed “proper” church discipline within organized religion/church systems. Only abuse of power….and it will only grow worse as the pride of life, in this life, grows stronger and humility becomes yet another fossil amonst a people who have been given so much.
LORD, have mercy upon us. “Be angry and do not sin….” God’s Word speaks truth as we listen to the prompting of God, the Holy Spirit,. We, the lower laity, are called to minister to all those who are suffering, regardless of whom they may be.
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Thank-You A. Amos Love for that precious Bible Study you posted publicly as it ministered to me personally, and is worthy of noting in my Bible. I am edified in my faith today!
Jesus be with you.
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I appreciate posts such as these. As a pastor, they remind me of the sad abuses and sins among clergy.They also drive home proper ethics and relevant laws related to abuse, etc.
I do wish to ask Amos Love about his statistics. I especially question this one: “Over 33% admit to haveing an affair.”
Assuming many pastors never get caught or never admit to having an affair, this would mean that WELL over 1/3 of pastors ACTUALLY have affairs. This seems very unlikely. Would you please present your evidence for this statistic? Thank you.
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Allan, welcome to the blog. I love hearing from pastors who are concerned keeping people safe from abuse.
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Re Allan’s post.
Allan, if you’d like a snap shot of this problem, please go to Google and paste this in and hit the enter button on your keyboard:
“preachers extra marital affairs”
I tend to pay close attention to this topic – not to the point of memorizing stats and their sources, though – because many Christians tend to harbor stereotypes about adult singles – they say we adult singles are not as mature, godly, or sexually restrained as married people.
(Marriage is viewed by a lot of Christians as a necessary qualifier to becoming mature or holy, which I find problematic since so many married Christians do end up having affairs or being drug addicts or what have you.)
I’m not sure how many links we are permitted per post on this blog before they are sent into moderation, so I’ll only put in a few.
I’m not quite sure off the top of my head about extra marital affairs in particular, but I’ve seen several polls and surveys in the last few years that say porn use among Christian men, including preachers, has gotten quite high.
There are, almost weekly, news stories of preachers (or self professing Christian laymen) who are caught in affairs and/or who kill their wives or who get caught in child porn rings.
By using the search phrase above, I found this:
–Source: CT article–
–Statistics on Pastors – Into Thy Word Site –
40% of pastors admit to having extramarital affair!
I’ll look around a bit more, and if I find a better sourced document for these figures, I will be happy to link to them.
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Katy, it doesn’t surprise me when church people have that sort of mentality, considering that many of them teach and/or believe that God is the same way, sacrificing even innocent little children on a regular basis, throwing them to the wolves to be devoured and destroyed. The welfare of the individual is unimportant, and he/she is cast aside like garbage, as the most evil of evils is meticulously orchestrated, for a so-called “greater good.” It is disgusting, evil teaching.
I know that’s not where you were going with that, but it’s where my mind went.
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@Oasis:
“For The COLLECTIVE Good.”
Ask Comrade Pol Pot and Comrade Kim Jong-Un.
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Allan
You ask @ DECEMBER 21, 2014 @ 1:59 PM
“I do wish to ask Amos Love about his statistics. I especially question this one: “Over 33% admit to haveing an affair.”
Seems Daisy has found some sites for you.
Did you check them out?
I often quote from – “Into thy Word” – Which Daisy already mentioned.
This ministry began as the…
“Francis A. Schaeffer Institute of Church Leadership Development” says…
“Almost forty percent polled said they have had an extra-marital affair since beginning their ministry.”
“Three hundred fifteen (315 or 30%) said they had either been in an ongoing affair or a one-time sexual encounter with a parishioner.”
http://www.intothyword.org/apps/articles/?articleid=36562“
————
The other statistics for pastors here are just as horrible.
• 77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
• 70% do NOT have someone they consider a close friend.
• 70% constantly fight depression
• 57% said they would leave if they had a better place to go.
And, these are the guys runnin the show…
And, they can NOT even run their own lives…
And, they want to be in charge of “church discipline.”
A term NOT found in the Bible.
NO thanks
I think I’ll leave any “discipline” I need to…
“The “ONE” Shepherd.”
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Allan
I also quote from a ministry helping Burnt-out pastors and their families.
“Pastoral Care Inc.” And they say…
“33% confess having involved in inappropriate sexual behavior
with someone in the church.”
http://www.pastoralcareinc.com/statistics/
————
The other statistics for pastors here are just as horrible.
• 90% feel they are inadequately trained to cope with the ministry demands.
• 80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
• 80% of spouses wish their spouse would choose a different profession.
• 50% of pastors feel so discouraged that they would leave the ministry if they could, but have no other way of making a living.
And, these are the guys runnin the show…
And, they can NOT even run their own lives…
And, they want to be in charge of “church discipline.”
A term NOT found in the Bible.
NO thanks
I think I’ll leave any “discipline” I need to…
“The “ONE” Shepherd.”
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Lydia wrote:
This is what SGM taught. And they are a cult. They turn the Cross into a cruel monster and totally ignore the Resurrection and what it means.
They most certainly do. I am sooooo glad to be free of that regime and all its variants.
“Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.”
~ Thomas Paine ~
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