Extra-Biblical Nonsense, John MacArthur, Legalism, Stay-At-Home Daughters Movement, Women and the Church

So, what does John MacArthur really think about young women going to college?

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Karl Heitman and Matt Tarr come to different conclusions about whether it is okay for young ladies to go to college. Both cite John MacArthur and the Bible to back up their claims. Who is right?

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I’m always thankful for readers who send me information on articles or concerns they see within “Churchianity.” Two men, both strongly influenced by John MacArthur’s teachings, came away with different conclusions of what MacArthur and scripture have to say about the role of young women and whether or not it’s okay for them to go to college.

First, some background:  Karl Heitman, has been lead pastor at Carnation Bible Church, Carnation, Washington, since June 2014.

Pastor Karl earned a Bachelor of Christian Ministry degree from Wayland Baptist University and a Master of Divinity degree from The Master’s Seminary in Sun Valley, CA.  He has a passion for Reformed theology, biblical counseling, and the expository (verse-by-verse) preaching of the Word of God. (Source)

Now this part is important and you’ll soon see why soon:

Heitman blogs at Parking Space 23 with nine other men, whom all have connections with John MacArthurGrace Community ChurchGrace Advance, or The Master’s Seminary. Perhaps this is a new type of Pyromaniacs blog?

In the first article by Karl Heitman, 2 Reasons Why My Daughter Will Not Go to College, Heitman refers to his 5-year old daughter as he shares why she likely will not go to college.  But the way he comes across is pretty strong and it’s important to note that he uses the word “biblical” to give extra emphasis to his interpretation. When one hears the word biblical, sometimes it causes one to think introspectively:

“If I’m not doing it the way he says – the biblical way –  does that mean that  I am responding “unbiblically?”

Even if Heitman frames it as his personal belief, when he backs it up with scripture, with a well-known and respected pastor and church leader like MacArthur, and also says “biblical,” the implication is that Heitman’s way is the right way. He’s done the research and has settled it.

Let’s dive in with the first excerpt. This subject is a familiar one. For decades, the religious right has blamed anything having to do with freedom and independence of females  on the F word, feminism, and begins:

 

fword

Feminism

To be honest, I have a deep concern for her [his daughter] because of the feministic culture we live in. Let’s face it; feminism has so influenced American culture that it has infiltrated the Christian culture just as much in more subtle ways. The average Christian woman is not trained from the home, nor encouraged, to find a husband as an alternative to going to college and starting a career. This is sad and unbiblical.

Heitman then explains to his readers why his daughter likely won’t be going to college.

I’m sitting here in my office chair, rocking back and forth, hands behind my head, trying to envision this:

  • Can you imagine a father telling his adult daughter what she can and cannot do with her life and her future?
  • What would her response be?  Can we think about that for just a minute?
  • Where is she in all of this?
  • Where do her thoughts, her opinions, her desires fit into his framework?
  • Is she allowed to express her voice?
  • What if she thinks that God is calling her to something different? Then what?

Ok, let’s go on with more of Heitman’s article. He lists two reasons why his daughter might not go to college:

1) MY DAUGHTER WON’T GO TO COLLEGE IF…HER MOTIVE IS WRONG.

A woman was created to fill the role of a helper and a companion, specifically to a husband. That’s why God created Eve (Gen 2:18). Until that happens, nowhere in Scripture does it command fathers to release their daughter into the world and demand that she learn how to fend for herself. We see from Scripture that a “man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake” (1 Cor 11:9). Again, in 1 Tim 2:15, it
reads, “women will be preserved through the bearing of children.” Not only that, Paul says twice in two different letters that a woman’s primary place of business is in the home (1 Tim 5:14; Tit 2:4).

He uses those two verses – just two verses – to justify that a woman needs to be at home.

And where Paul talks about singleness, Heitman offers the following:

Yes, Paul spoke of singleness and used his singleness for the ministry. However, Paul was a man. It’s wrong to expect women to keep in step with the cultural, not biblical, mandate.

So, am I getting that right – that it’s okay for a man to be single and use his singleness for ministry work, but not for a woman? Umm, Elisabeth Elliot, Gladys Aylward, anyone?  Did they do it all wrong? Maybe he’s never heard of them.  . . . probably not.

When a wife’s husband becomes disabled, he has this to offer:

I would feel a very large and heavy burden to mobilize the church Body and do whatever it takes to care for her, especially if she has no other family support behind her (1 Tim 5:3-4). Even so, that situation is extremely rare.

I’ve heard a lot of talk about churches tending to the heavy burdens of families like this, but I’m not convinced that the hardship is removed on an ongoing basis by the church.

What’s not gray is the fact that young Christian women are indeed pursuing the same things as unbelieving women: independence from a man. Eve acted outside the authority and protection of Adam and, well, you know where that led to.

Right, it’s all Eve’s fault and women have been following Eve’s example all these years.  That woman, Eve, messed it up for all of us.

Ok, Heitman continues with his second reason his daughter might not go to college:

2. MY DAUGHTER WON’T GO TO COLLEGE IF…I CAN’T AFFORD IT.

Heitman goes into detail about debt, how bad it is to be in debt, that she will feel obligated to put off marriage and motherhood until debt is paid off. Yea, I get that debt is difficult and a burden, but what if he can afford to send his daughter to college? Do you think he’d let her after what we’ve already read from him?

And then we get to this part:

The question then leads to this: what is she supposed to do if she doesn’t go to college until she finds a husband? What if she never marries? What if she wants to be single? This question is strictly asked with the presupposition that it would be utterly insane to stay home. However, that is precisely what women did until the feminist movement. Women employed their gifts, talents, and God-given abilities to benefit the home while being under the care, protection, and tutelage of her parents.

The blame for the church’s cultural compromises fall squarely on the shoulders of church leaders and fathers. I pledged to myself that I will not sacrifice my daughter on the altar of men by sending her out of my home, care, and protection at age 18 just so that she can get a degree and achieve some worldly status. I will count those years as a precious time for my wife and me to prepare her for the wonderful task that’s ahead. The job of being a wife and mother is a high calling and I would argue is the most important job under the sun.

Now this part is important. He recommends listening to two different audio series by John MacArthur as if to imply that MacArthur endorses what Heitman is suggesting:

I know this issue is very controversial and unpopular. If you would be open to learning and being challenged, please listen to Pastor MacArthur’s series called “God’s High Calling for Women” and “The Fulfilled Family.” He talks about this issue in depth.

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At the end of the article, we get more words that bring down the gavel on what is biblical and what is not biblical. So you’ll have to find which category you fit in. I’m obviously part of the hedonistic culture because my 19-yr old is out of our home, living half-way across the country going to college (a Christian college, though, so maybe we can get some credit for that):

The bottom line is this: the Bible does not command women to leave home at a young, vulnerable age, get a formal education, get a reputable job, and then have a family when she feels like it. The individualistic hedonistic culture does. One [sic] the other hand, the Bible reveals that it is God’s will for women to get married, raise godly children, and keep the home. It’s a high calling.

Do you see the language used here? It really feels like he is a judge hitting his desk with the gavel as he says “the bottom line is this.” Is there room for disagreement with this tone? Again, think about what someone in his church might feel listening to “the bottom line.” Just reading the words, the guilt is heaped upon my head. I’m going to call my daughter right now and tell her to turn over her volleyball jersey, pack up her stuff and come home to her father where she can serve him, her 5 brothers and most importantly, tend the house while this wayward mom goes to college full-time. Oh boy, our family is really messed up.

Let’s move on to the second article at the same blog on the same topic . Matt Tarr’s article came pretty quickly, only three days, after Heitman’s article.  Note that Tarr “serves in the counseling department at Grace Community Church” (Source) and is obviously in John MacArthur territory, while Heitman pastors his church in Washington State.

Now think about this for a sec. Why would Tarr come out quickly with a new article which seems to challenge, albeit graciously, Heitman? I wonder how Heitman felt when he saw his co-team member’s article which clearly challenges his words? I’ll post a quote from both articles to see the contrast:

I pledged to myself that I will not sacrifice my daughter on the altar of men by sending her out of my home, care, and protection at age 18 just so that she can get a degree and achieve some worldly status. ~Heitman

and

But let me be clear, just because you sent your daughter to college, does not mean you’ve sacrificed her on the altar of men.  ~ Tarr

In Tarr’s article, So… Can My Daughter Go to College? we read that Christian young ladies can indeed go to college, he includes a link to MacArthur’s (of course) college:

College can be a great thing (in fact, there some [not many] colleges and universities that even equip young women to be lovers of their husband, lovers of their children, and workers at home – The Master’s College is one of them), and your daughter can still honor God by her decision to go to college.

I’m not going to be detailing Tarr’s article, because it is much more balanced, but I’m struck at the timing of the second article and the widely different conclusions.

It’s important to note how convincing Heitman was in his article. Couldn’t you see Heitman on the speaking circuit with the likes of Voddie Baucham, Doug Phillips, and Kevin Swanson where Patriarchy and stay-at-home daughters is commonplace?

Another concern is this –  imagine you are a pew sitter at Pastor Heitman’s church, listening to him preach on this subject. Imagine you have a teen daughter who wants to go to college. How would that fly if your daughter went away to college? Come on, now, think that one through. Would you be rebuked by the pastor or other church members if you sent your daughter off to college? What would the response be? Would this family be labeled as unbiblical or even rebellious?

Sometimes this is what happens in churches when a pastor issues a strong stance on a particular subject – a subject that is not directly discussed in the Bible.

Does the church body’s climate change to fit a pastor’s views and practice?

A pastor’s strong stance, even when he cloaks it with “this is what I’m going to do for my family” and doesn’t say that you need to follow his stance, can create a climate that binds the church body to extra-Biblical rules. I hope that Heitman considers how powerful his voice is as a pastor and how it can come across as a reader or a pew sitter with such a strong message.

So, there you have it. One blog, two contributors who highly respect MacArthur, and two completely different responses on a topic that is not so clear in the Bible.

Be careful folks! These are decisions that we wrestle with for our families. Our pastors and church leaders don’t get to decide these things for our families. God has given us His Word, His Holy Spirit to guide us. We do not need our pastor’s backing for our family decisions, we do not need MacArthur’s backing, either.

 

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129 thoughts on “So, what does John MacArthur really think about young women going to college?”

  1. Ok, if any of this is true, then my life is completely unbiblical. I cried out to God to save my marriage according to His Word and He did not. Not only did He NOT, losing my marriage left me in a position of homelessness and looking to find a job so that I can take care of myself. No family, no support, no church, no anything. Additionally, if I want a place to live, that would mean sleeping in the same room with someone’s boyfriend, sharing intimate space with a man-breather who isn’t even my husband when I was lawfully wedded to one! So I am considering seminary school, which I have discovered that there isn’t even a place for me at The Master’s Seminary to attend college as a female. If going to college and being a single woman who independently takes care of herself and there is NEVER a chance for marriage again, then God needs to look into this and do something about it. It is cruel to expect that a woman cannot be single and support herself when she has ABSOLUTELY nothing else going for her. It is more kind to take her life than to place a burden of marriage and family on her which circumstances would not make opportunity for, ESPECIALLY after going to God in prayer about her marital situation and it was flagrantly denied.

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  2. This seems like an echo chamber. You are all so convinced all these men are evil and wrong that you make the same error you accuse them of.

    Obviously, there is no commandment in the bible about education and we should place no premium on ignorance which I believe John Macarthur has said before.

    This does not negate the fact that there is a structure God has made and I disagree that wives should just have a right to choose to do anything even if it means they abandon family.

    Marriage is not compulsory and there are some with the gift of singleness. If you desire marriage however, that is a sign you do not have that gift and it is good for both men and women to pursue it in such cases as quickly as possible. I know the kind of havoc that university and delaying marriage had on my own walk with God. Marriage has been such a blessing and we pray for grace every day to model Christ’s relationship with His bride daily.

    I was very clear with my wife prior to us getting married that once we start having kids, I would need her to turn aside from her job to focus on her God-given role and I would also focus on mine to keep her taken care of. It was not easy for her as the culture all around her including so-called ‘Christian’ women like much of what I have read on here have so filled her head with the impression that keeping house is inferior and degrading for her.

    As the man, I have had to stand my ground on that point because much as we usually take every decision together and after much discussion (she is my most trusted counselor afterall), I still have the responsibility to steer our family right and if I am wrong on this, I will bear the consequences before God.

    It has been a struggle but with prayer and studying the Scriptures, she is gradually coming around to it and I thank God that we had Godly counsel such as men like Voddie and Paul Washer to help.

    We are expecting a baby girl soon God-willing and I fully intend for her to have a good education but not merely a secular one. I want to do it differently from the culture because this culture is killing women. Women are basically just men these days. I want her to appreciate her value and beauty and dignity and yes, to have a lot of knowledge about various things. All however, to be focused on serving God in the church and in the home/ministry at the right time.

    Stay blessed!

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  3. @ David MAY 11, 2017 @ 1:58 PM
    So, you support complementarianism or some form of Christian patriarchy?

    David said,
    “This does not negate the fact that there is a structure God has made”

    What structure would that be? If it’s “the male is the “head” ergo man is boss over the woman” that is an error in interpreting the text, or a misapplication of it.

    You (David) said,
    “and I disagree that wives should just have a right to choose to do anything even if it means they abandon family.”

    I guess you can disagree with that all you like, but you’re exactly the kind of man I would not marry.

    You are advocating for men treating grown women (specifically married women) like little children, which is patronizing, and something which the Bible actually discourages.

    Your view of gender roles is the same thing as codependency.
    I have written two or three posts about that topic on my blog, including this one:

    Even Warm and Fuzzy, True, Correctly-Implemented Gender Complementarianism is Harmful to Women, and It’s Still Sexism – Yes All Comps (Refuting “Not All Comps”)

    David said
    “Marriage is not compulsory and there are some with the gift of singleness. ”

    There’s no such thing as the “gift of singleness” (nor is there anything such as “gift of marriage”), not in the manner in which it is taught by most Christians.

    David said,
    “If you desire marriage however, that is a sign you do not have that gift and it is good for both men and women to pursue it”

    Do tell? I’m over 40, wanted to be married, I “pursued” it, but I never got married- was engaged though, but had to dump the guy because he was a selfish, inept moron.

    David said,
    “I know the kind of havoc that university and delaying marriage had on my own walk with God. ”

    I can provide links to several articles and studies that show the younger the marriage, the more likely it is to end in divorce.

    Also, wanting to get married is not a guarantee of marriage. You can want to be married, pursue it, and it still not happen.

    For one thing, there is a huge gender imbalance in Christianity, as there is in conservative Judaism and Mormonism: there are more single females in each of those groups than single men, so not all women who want to marry can do so, unless they marry an atheist.

    David said,
    “I was very clear with my wife prior to us getting married that once we start having kids, I would need her to turn aside from her job to focus on her God-given role”

    And she married you anyhow? Wow. Well, being a mother is not a “God given role.”
    It’s just presented as being another option available for women should they choose to go down that road. Being infertile, childless, or childfree are also merely choices God permits, they are not “God given roles”

    David said
    “It was not easy for her as the culture all around her including so-called ‘Christian’ women like much of what I have read on here have so filled her head with the impression that keeping house is inferior and degrading for her.”

    Oh lord, what a way to twist the views of people on here. In all my years on this blog, all of us have said we are FINE with women who knowingly marry and have kids, if that is what they choose.

    What we oppose are doofus and un-biblical views such as yours, which wrongly assumes that marrying or motherhood are God’s ONLY chosen routes for women, or God’s best or most preferred lifestyles for women.

    You (and your faulty view of women) end up shaming women such as myself who never marry, who never have kids, or who choose not to do those things or are unable (e.g, due to infertility)

    If a woman wants to marry that is fine, but stop presenting marriage or motherhood as duties women “must” fulfill, or as they they are God’s best or only roles for women.

    You’re not supporting godly values, David… you are arguing for sexism against women.

    You said “As the man, I have had to stand my ground on that point because much as we usually take every decision together and after much discussion”

    You’re in a codependent relationship where you treat your wife like a child. I get it. I just find it backwards and sad.

    Some women like that arrangement because they are happy to have someone else to rely on and make all choices for them because they don’t want to take on personal responsibility for their own lives.

    David said
    “I still have the responsibility to steer our family right and if I am wrong on this, I will bear the consequences before God.”

    No, the Bible teaches that each adult is responsible before God for his or her life, choices, and sins – there is only one mediator between woman and God, and the Bible says that one person is JESUS CHRIST, not a husband, father, or uncle.

    You said,
    “Women are basically just men these days.”

    Women, the Bible says, were also created in the image of God.

    Your post was a big, sexist crock and a big sexist steaming pile.

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  4. David said:

    “I still have the responsibility to steer our family right and if I am wrong on this, I will bear the consequences before God.” So, are you saying it is okay for men to steer their family the way they seem best it should go, even if it is harmful to the family. And, because a man will have to answer to God for it it’s okay? Meanwhile, a man could potentially place his wife and children in a bad situation?

    “I want to do it differently from the culture because this culture is killing women. Women are basically just men these days.” No, culture is not killing women. Oppressive and strict guidance to gender roles are not helpful to women either. As far as your comment about women being like men, because I work full-time outside of the home does that mean I’m like a man? I think my husband would strongly disagree with you on that.

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  5. Post Script for David who wrote-

    We are expecting a baby girl soon God-willing and I fully intend for her to have a good education but not merely a secular one. I want to do it differently from the culture because this culture is killing women.

    I grew up in a traditional family, with Christian parents who advocated everything you’re pitching….

    My mother taught me to be a sweet, Jesus loving, feminine, godly girl, which really meant she was teaching me to be codependent: I was taught that I should be passive, lack boundaries, and should I marry, my husband is the decision maker, I don’t get to be my “own person,” etc.

    I cannot stress enough that the malarky you’re pushing is codependency for girls and women, and your daughter will eventually reject it when she’s older and resent you for the years you made her waste over it – I should know, I’ve been through this in my own life.

    And this hogwash you think is so godly (merely because you want to use it to fight back against secular feminism or whatever problems you have with culture) handicapped me in life.

    I had parents who believed very similar to what you do about women, girls, education, gender, marriage, home-making etc, and it did a lot of damage to me. I am speaking from personal experience, not just from the abstract or from books or blogs written by some male preacher who extols the virtue of female submissiveness.

    I’ve spent the last several years un-learning all of this stuff I was raised to believe in regarding marriage, gender, etc.

    I realized by my mid-30s your views about women and marriage are actually not biblical at all, but years before then, I noticed that aspects of views like yours were hampering me.

    I had to dump it and get rid of it to find peace in life, to stop attracting users and abusers. I feel so sorry for your daughter if you bring her up like this… you will be subjecting her to needless years of being a doormat and having to put up with all sorts of rude behavior from people, and she will think of herself as less than boys and men.

    Here is just one of several negative outcomes your daughter may face if you insist on raising her under complementarian gender role beliefs:
    “Bible believing” pastors and the enabling of domestic violence

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  6. “I still have the responsibility to steer our family right and if I am wrong on this, I will bear the consequences before God”

    If you’re wrong, you’re family will have to bear some consequences, too. Do you think God let Sapphira slide by because Annanias steered her wrongly?

    Liked by 1 person

  7. “We are expecting a baby girl soon God-willing and I fully intend for her to have a good education but not merely a secular one. I want to do it differently from the culture because this culture is killing women.”

    David I was born and raised in conservative Christianity. I went to christian home school and had a stay at home submissive mother. My father thought and talked just like you. Self serving, trying to put the he cares for women spin on it. He was a selfish know-nothing wimp that hated women. Conservative Christianity told the gross sadistic little man everything he wanted to be true.

    “because this culture is killing women” I started hurting myself because of your culture. I became suicidal at age 11 because of conservative Christianity. I felt like a sex slave in training and my conservative Christian father and god were my pimps. I wanted to be dead to escape christian men and their selfish demeaning misogyny.

    My father peddled the same man serving pro female slavery slop that you are peddling. He needed to get over his self. I wish I never knew my conservative Christian father. As someone raised in your culture I have told people I would have rather been adopted by two gay men, raised by a single mother, or aborted than being born to a conservative Christian family.

    Again I wish I never knew my father and wish my mother could have had the self respect and love for me to wash her hands of the self important self worshiping joke of a man.

    The fact that he did not want my self hating mother to have a job is MORE proof he was terrified she would have the resources to stop scraping the bottom of the barrel for such a selfish creep like him and do herself and her little girl a favor and dump him.

    I have never been to collage and grew up secluded in a family of southern baptist preachers. I was a hyper conservative hard core Christian when I realized Christianity was nothing more then an ideology created by and for lying, unwanted, creepy, insecure, abusive, selfish, childish, misogynistic week little men to have trapped female slaves in their lives.

    Your culture made me start seeing Christian men in Ariel Castro, Phillip Garrido, and the Taliban. Your culture made me an atheist even though I did not go to collage and everyone in my life were hard core hyper conservative Christians. A wise man would be ashamed. A selfish man will mock and dismiss it.

    Christian men need to grow up, get a spine, and start blaming themselves instead of education and liberals. I have one atheist relative, he became an atheist because of our hyper conservative Christian great grandfathers preaching.

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  8. “I guess you can disagree with that all you like, but you’re exactly the kind of man I would not marry.”

    Hear Hear Miss Daisy. I literally decided at sixteen I would rather be dead than married to a christian man. And men like David were the only men in my toxic life.

    Is this Voddie person the same man that blamed daughters for their fathers cheating on their mothers. If it is Voddie sounds like he and his ilk lust after their own daughters.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. “No, the Bible teaches that each adult is responsible before God for his or her life, choices, and sins – there is only one mediator between woman and God, and the Bible says that one person is JESUS CHRIST, not a husband, father, or uncle.”

    This self worshiping group of Christian men are consistently elevating themselves, their feeble little ego’s needs much elevation. Didn’t the anti Christ do that also?

    Liked by 1 person

  10. You said,
    “Women are basically just men these days.”

    Daisy, I’m glad you pulled this out because it’s one of those weird things I don’t get at all. How are women men? That gets into what makes a woman a woman, doesn’t it? Are women ‘men’ because they got a job? an education? Put on a pair of pants or drove a car?

    How nonsensical. What a way to reduce what god made us as people down to a tiny thing like what we do. Who we are is who we are! And there is a lot more to it than some people think.

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  11. I cannot access CBE’s site – not normally. I can only gain access going through caches of their site.

    Here is a new page by one of their authors about Male Headship:

    You’re Going The Wrong Way: A Response To John Piper (CBE’s site – cached page version)

    The cached version of the page is not as pretty as the normal version, because it doesn’t render all the CSS, but you can still read the text which is the important part.

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  12. Lea said,

    Daisy, you got a degree! That’s clearly where it all went wrong

    Well, that college degree enabled me to get a full time professional job, hence, a regular pay check, and my ex fiance’ sure liked bilking money off me!!

    My ex would always promise to re-pay me the money he took from me (this went on over a period of years), but he never really did (we are talking literally thousands of dollars).

    Some men (~not all men~) are dishonest, selfish dirt balls such as my ex, but guys like David above would have me “submit” to a selfish, inept weenie such as the ex, especially had I married him.

    No way Jose!

    Had I married the ex, due to his laziness and incompetence, I either would’ve had to take over the traditional “man” role and paid all the bills on time, etc, or else, I would’ve ended up hungry, cold, and living in a cardboard box under a bridge.

    I think I made the right decision by breaking up with that guy.

    You know, for David’s and my parent’s gender comp views to work, it takes a decent, stand up, intelligent guy who actually cares about his wife’s needs and who has a steady job.

    If a woman marries an idiot, jerk, or doofus, or, if her husband has a heart attack or dies in a car wreck, she is S.O.L. under complementarianism…

    Unless, in the case of being married to a loser or abuser they allow for divorce, but some of these sexist guys have a “all divorce is bad” teaching.

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  13. Lea said

    Daisy, I’m glad you pulled this out because it’s one of those weird things I don’t get at all. How are women men? That gets into what makes a woman a woman, doesn’t it? Are women ‘men’ because they got a job? an education? Put on a pair of pants or drove a car?

    How nonsensical. What a way to reduce what god made us as people down to a tiny thing like what we do. Who we are is who we are! And there is a lot more to it than some people think.

    Yeah, complementarians tend to create straw-man arguments on this topic.
    I’ve yet to come across anyone (Christians or conservative Non- Christians) who argue that men and women are identical.

    There may be some very far left wing liberal types of people who do that, like the guys who argue on behalf of transgender views, but I don’t see a lot of that coming from egalitarian Christians or secular right wingers who don’t buy into traditional gender roles.

    Saying women are equal to men, or should have equal opportunities, is NOT the same thing as saying “there are zero differences between men and women,” which is what guys such as David argue or believe.

    As for me personally, I do not believe men and women are 100% identical – there are some obvious biological differences – but I think a lot of male/female behavior is socially conditioned.

    I think men and women are more alike than different.

    Also, traits that are “gender neutral” are defined as being masculine or feminine depending on one’s culture.

    In the United States, we generally consider being assertive, risk taking, etc, as being masculine, but being tender, passive, meek, sweet, quiet and neat as being “feminine.”

    In reality, there’s nothing wrong or masculine with a woman being assertive or taking risks or being bold… but if a woman displays those qualities, many complementarians (and I am sorry to say many of my fellow right wingers) will insist such as woman is “trying to be like a man.”

    I don’t think being assertive, out spoken, bold, etc, are feminine or masculine traits, personally. I think our culture just thinks they can be divvied up that way.

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  14. Christianity Hurts said,

    “Hear Hear Miss Daisy. I literally decided at sixteen I would rather be dead than married to a christian man. And men like David were the only men in my toxic life.”

    At least when these complementarian guys make their gender role views known plainly and loudly, it sends me a message to steer clear of them, like if I’m on a dating site. It’s advertising letting me know to stay far, far away!

    I have read and heard, though, about comp men who deliberately mislead women about this, to trap them into marriage or dating.

    They will lie on dating site profiles and say they are egalitarian or feminist, then, after they’ve dated the woman for awhile (or marry her), the mask comes off, and they say they are really comp the entire time.

    So I guess one has to be cautious.
    Most of the time, though, these comp guys bray loudly and proudly about how biblical it is to be complementarian and how all feminism is rotten, etc. They usually like to advertise their comp views out front and in the open on most dating sites I’ve been on. They wear the Comp label as though it’s a badge of honor.

    Like

  15. “Is this Voddie person the same man that blamed daughters for their fathers cheating on their mothers. If it is Voddie sounds like he and his ilk lust after their own daughters.”
    Yep. That’s him …… homeschool, patriarchy, stay-at-home-daughters till daddy finds ‘me husbands, children are “vipers in diapers” Voddie B!

    Like

  16. If a woman marries an idiot, jerk, or doofus, or, if her husband has a heart attack or dies in a car wreck, she is S.O.L. under complementarianism…

    Not just that, think about military wives. Who do they think is making decisions when the husband is on a ship for 1 year with limited ability to phone home?

    For that matter, what do they think women did in the past, when husbands were off fighting in wars and didn’t have phones/texting/facebook?

    These guys don’t really think these theories through.

    Like

  17. I don’t think being assertive, out spoken, bold, etc, are feminine or masculine traits, personally.

    Any more than being ’emotional’ is feminine. /another pet peeve of mine

    Like

  18. I would think there would be a decline in heterosexual marriages if women were becoming like men. A logical, reasonable thought….makes me manly.

    Like

  19. “For that matter, what do they think women did in the past, when husbands were off fighting in wars and didn’t have phones/texting/facebook?

    These guys don’t really think these theories through.”

    Uhm, wife of retired army guy here. Every time hubby went to Iraq, or out of state for training, something major broke down. On his first two deployments to Iraq, there was minimal contact with me – 5th Group, Special Forces – sometimes these guys are gone for weeks, and no one knows where they are!

    Believe me, the guys who push this “woman submit, male headship” cr@p don’t have the backbone to enlist voluntarily. The only way they get into the military is through the draft. 1.). They are control freaks. 2.) They don’t trust women. 3.) It just kills them to have to say, “Sir, yes sir!” and follow orders continuously and consistently.

    I know a man like this who was drafted for Nam. He made his wife live with his parents. They rarely let her leave the house and when she did leave the house, she had to have one of the parents “escort” her – for 4 years! Wife went stark, raving mad when hubby got back from Nam and she got out of that house …… totally out of control, and she still is!

    Like

  20. when she did leave the house, she had to have one of the parents “escort” her – for 4 years!

    OMG!

    Like

  21. Dear David,

    This article is two-and-a-half years old. Did it take you this long to find it?

    We are expecting a baby girl soon God-willing…

    That’s wonderful to hear. I just hope she’s not naturally shy around strangers. If she is, at all costs keep her from within 100 yards of Voddie Baucham. Because, Heaven forbid, if she hides from him out of shyness, he’ll probably insist that you spank her right then and there for disrespecting his ManaGAWDness. And if you disobey him, and refuse to be violent with your little darling… well, where does that leave you?

    https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2013/06/19/crosspost-voddie-baucham-shy-kids-and-spanking-5-times-before-breakfast/

    Of course, that all assumes that you’ll see your daughter as your “little darling”. Considering that you’re a devotee of Baucham, would you see your own kids as “vipers in diapers”, rather than precious ones made in God’s image?

    We know how Baucham sees kids — as evil beings that need to have the devil beaten out of them.

    Like

  22. Also, did this line from David’s post give anyone else the willies?

    It has been a struggle but with prayer and studying the Scriptures, she is gradually coming around to it …

    I wonder… just how long has David been plying her with the misogynistic writings of violence-condoning creeps like Baucham, to get her to “come around to it”?

    Like

  23. I had to step away from the blog, figuratively, Serving. Sometimes I’m in the right frame of mind to deal with it, other times, I am not. It makes me angry. And it makes me want to cry for those women who are continually squelched by “godly” men.

    Like

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