So, what does John MacArthur really think about young women going to college?

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Karl Heitman and Matt Tarr come to different conclusions about whether it is okay for young ladies to go to college. Both cite John MacArthur and the Bible to back up their claims. Who is right?

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I’m always thankful for readers who send me information on articles or concerns they see within “Churchianity.” Two men, both strongly influenced by John MacArthur’s teachings, came away with different conclusions of what MacArthur and scripture have to say about the role of young women and whether or not it’s okay for them to go to college.

First, some background:  Karl Heitman, has been lead pastor at Carnation Bible Church, Carnation, Washington, since June 2014.

Pastor Karl earned a Bachelor of Christian Ministry degree from Wayland Baptist University and a Master of Divinity degree from The Master’s Seminary in Sun Valley, CA.  He has a passion for Reformed theology, biblical counseling, and the expository (verse-by-verse) preaching of the Word of God. (Source)

Now this part is important and you’ll soon see why soon:

Heitman blogs at Parking Space 23 with nine other men, whom all have connections with John MacArthurGrace Community ChurchGrace Advance, or The Master’s Seminary. Perhaps this is a new type of Pyromaniacs blog?

In the first article by Karl Heitman, 2 Reasons Why My Daughter Will Not Go to College, Heitman refers to his 5-year old daughter as he shares why she likely will not go to college.  But the way he comes across is pretty strong and it’s important to note that he uses the word “biblical” to give extra emphasis to his interpretation. When one hears the word biblical, sometimes it causes one to think introspectively:

“If I’m not doing it the way he says – the biblical way –  does that mean that  I am responding “unbiblically?”

Even if Heitman frames it as his personal belief, when he backs it up with scripture, with a well-known and respected pastor and church leader like MacArthur, and also says “biblical,” the implication is that Heitman’s way is the right way. He’s done the research and has settled it.

Let’s dive in with the first excerpt. This subject is a familiar one. For decades, the religious right has blamed anything having to do with freedom and independence of females  on the F word, feminism, and begins:

 

fword

Feminism

To be honest, I have a deep concern for her [his daughter] because of the feministic culture we live in. Let’s face it; feminism has so influenced American culture that it has infiltrated the Christian culture just as much in more subtle ways. The average Christian woman is not trained from the home, nor encouraged, to find a husband as an alternative to going to college and starting a career. This is sad and unbiblical.

Heitman then explains to his readers why his daughter likely won’t be going to college.

I’m sitting here in my office chair, rocking back and forth, hands behind my head, trying to envision this:

  • Can you imagine a father telling his adult daughter what she can and cannot do with her life and her future?
  • What would her response be?  Can we think about that for just a minute?
  • Where is she in all of this?
  • Where do her thoughts, her opinions, her desires fit into his framework?
  • Is she allowed to express her voice?
  • What if she thinks that God is calling her to something different? Then what?

Ok, let’s go on with more of Heitman’s article. He lists two reasons why his daughter might not go to college:

1) MY DAUGHTER WON’T GO TO COLLEGE IF…HER MOTIVE IS WRONG.

A woman was created to fill the role of a helper and a companion, specifically to a husband. That’s why God created Eve (Gen 2:18). Until that happens, nowhere in Scripture does it command fathers to release their daughter into the world and demand that she learn how to fend for herself. We see from Scripture that a “man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake” (1 Cor 11:9). Again, in 1 Tim 2:15, it
reads, “women will be preserved through the bearing of children.” Not only that, Paul says twice in two different letters that a woman’s primary place of business is in the home (1 Tim 5:14; Tit 2:4).

He uses those two verses – just two verses – to justify that a woman needs to be at home.

And where Paul talks about singleness, Heitman offers the following:

Yes, Paul spoke of singleness and used his singleness for the ministry. However, Paul was a man. It’s wrong to expect women to keep in step with the cultural, not biblical, mandate.

So, am I getting that right – that it’s okay for a man to be single and use his singleness for ministry work, but not for a woman? Umm, Elisabeth Elliot, Gladys Aylward, anyone?  Did they do it all wrong? Maybe he’s never heard of them.  . . . probably not.

When a wife’s husband becomes disabled, he has this to offer:

I would feel a very large and heavy burden to mobilize the church Body and do whatever it takes to care for her, especially if she has no other family support behind her (1 Tim 5:3-4). Even so, that situation is extremely rare.

I’ve heard a lot of talk about churches tending to the heavy burdens of families like this, but I’m not convinced that the hardship is removed on an ongoing basis by the church.

What’s not gray is the fact that young Christian women are indeed pursuing the same things as unbelieving women: independence from a man. Eve acted outside the authority and protection of Adam and, well, you know where that led to.

Right, it’s all Eve’s fault and women have been following Eve’s example all these years.  That woman, Eve, messed it up for all of us.

Ok, Heitman continues with his second reason his daughter might not go to college:

2. MY DAUGHTER WON’T GO TO COLLEGE IF…I CAN’T AFFORD IT.

Heitman goes into detail about debt, how bad it is to be in debt, that she will feel obligated to put off marriage and motherhood until debt is paid off. Yea, I get that debt is difficult and a burden, but what if he can afford to send his daughter to college? Do you think he’d let her after what we’ve already read from him?

And then we get to this part:

The question then leads to this: what is she supposed to do if she doesn’t go to college until she finds a husband? What if she never marries? What if she wants to be single? This question is strictly asked with the presupposition that it would be utterly insane to stay home. However, that is precisely what women did until the feminist movement. Women employed their gifts, talents, and God-given abilities to benefit the home while being under the care, protection, and tutelage of her parents.

The blame for the church’s cultural compromises fall squarely on the shoulders of church leaders and fathers. I pledged to myself that I will not sacrifice my daughter on the altar of men by sending her out of my home, care, and protection at age 18 just so that she can get a degree and achieve some worldly status. I will count those years as a precious time for my wife and me to prepare her for the wonderful task that’s ahead. The job of being a wife and mother is a high calling and I would argue is the most important job under the sun.

Now this part is important. He recommends listening to two different audio series by John MacArthur as if to imply that MacArthur endorses what Heitman is suggesting:

I know this issue is very controversial and unpopular. If you would be open to learning and being challenged, please listen to Pastor MacArthur’s series called “God’s High Calling for Women” and “The Fulfilled Family.” He talks about this issue in depth.

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At the end of the article, we get more words that bring down the gavel on what is biblical and what is not biblical. So you’ll have to find which category you fit in. I’m obviously part of the hedonistic culture because my 19-yr old is out of our home, living half-way across the country going to college (a Christian college, though, so maybe we can get some credit for that):

The bottom line is this: the Bible does not command women to leave home at a young, vulnerable age, get a formal education, get a reputable job, and then have a family when she feels like it. The individualistic hedonistic culture does. One [sic] the other hand, the Bible reveals that it is God’s will for women to get married, raise godly children, and keep the home. It’s a high calling.

Do you see the language used here? It really feels like he is a judge hitting his desk with the gavel as he says “the bottom line is this.” Is there room for disagreement with this tone? Again, think about what someone in his church might feel listening to “the bottom line.” Just reading the words, the guilt is heaped upon my head. I’m going to call my daughter right now and tell her to turn over her volleyball jersey, pack up her stuff and come home to her father where she can serve him, her 5 brothers and most importantly, tend the house while this wayward mom goes to college full-time. Oh boy, our family is really messed up.

Let’s move on to the second article at the same blog on the same topic . Matt Tarr’s article came pretty quickly, only three days, after Heitman’s article.  Note that Tarr “serves in the counseling department at Grace Community Church” (Source) and is obviously in John MacArthur territory, while Heitman pastors his church in Washington State.

Now think about this for a sec. Why would Tarr come out quickly with a new article which seems to challenge, albeit graciously, Heitman? I wonder how Heitman felt when he saw his co-team member’s article which clearly challenges his words? I’ll post a quote from both articles to see the contrast:

I pledged to myself that I will not sacrifice my daughter on the altar of men by sending her out of my home, care, and protection at age 18 just so that she can get a degree and achieve some worldly status. ~Heitman

and

But let me be clear, just because you sent your daughter to college, does not mean you’ve sacrificed her on the altar of men.  ~ Tarr

In Tarr’s article, So… Can My Daughter Go to College? we read that Christian young ladies can indeed go to college, he includes a link to MacArthur’s (of course) college:

College can be a great thing (in fact, there some [not many] colleges and universities that even equip young women to be lovers of their husband, lovers of their children, and workers at home – The Master’s College is one of them), and your daughter can still honor God by her decision to go to college.

I’m not going to be detailing Tarr’s article, because it is much more balanced, but I’m struck at the timing of the second article and the widely different conclusions.

It’s important to note how convincing Heitman was in his article. Couldn’t you see Heitman on the speaking circuit with the likes of Voddie Baucham, Doug Phillips, and Kevin Swanson where Patriarchy and stay-at-home daughters is commonplace?

Another concern is this –  imagine you are a pew sitter at Pastor Heitman’s church, listening to him preach on this subject. Imagine you have a teen daughter who wants to go to college. How would that fly if your daughter went away to college? Come on, now, think that one through. Would you be rebuked by the pastor or other church members if you sent your daughter off to college? What would the response be? Would this family be labeled as unbiblical or even rebellious?

Sometimes this is what happens in churches when a pastor issues a strong stance on a particular subject – a subject that is not directly discussed in the Bible.

Does the church body’s climate change to fit a pastor’s views and practice?

A pastor’s strong stance, even when he cloaks it with “this is what I’m going to do for my family” and doesn’t say that you need to follow his stance, can create a climate that binds the church body to extra-Biblical rules. I hope that Heitman considers how powerful his voice is as a pastor and how it can come across as a reader or a pew sitter with such a strong message.

So, there you have it. One blog, two contributors who highly respect MacArthur, and two completely different responses on a topic that is not so clear in the Bible.

Be careful folks! These are decisions that we wrestle with for our families. Our pastors and church leaders don’t get to decide these things for our families. God has given us His Word, His Holy Spirit to guide us. We do not need our pastor’s backing for our family decisions, we do not need MacArthur’s backing, either.

 

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129 comments on “So, what does John MacArthur really think about young women going to college?

  1. Isn’t that one of the biggest tragedies of religion: that two people can read the exact same verses, and walk away with radically different conclusions.

    Also, what if his daughter doesn’t get married?

    Liked by 3 people

  2. “I pledged to myself that I will not sacrifice my daughter on the altar of men by sending her out of my home, care, and protection at age 18 just so that she can get a degree and achieve some worldly status. ~Heitman”

    -quote from article.

    But you will sacrifice your daughter on the altar of man through marriage? What’s the difference?!? You are still handing her over to ‘man’!!! Oh wait…that’s “biblical” (barf).

    Liked by 3 people

  3. As a woman who has a CS degree, who *chose* to stay home with kids once we had them (after 8 years of working) this makes me mad… A woman needs to be able to support herself to be able to get out of an abusive relationship. Sure, we pray that that never happens to our kids. But one of reasons women stay in abusive relationships is that they cannot support themselves without the husband’s income and they don’t want to go back “home” and think they are trapped. Sigh.

    Was my dad wrong to let me go to college (and help pay for it)? Was that “unbiblical?” My dad wanted me to be as independent as possible – had to learn to drive a stick shift, check and add oil, and change a tire before I could get my drivers license. My dad is a believer. Was he being “unbiblical?” My husband let *me* decide if I wanted to stay home (and give up a 6-figure salary) with the kids or go back to work. I am glad I made that choice. But, I am always thinking, “So, what job will I go get once the kids have graduated?” (I’ve only got 8 more years to work that out 😉 ) Was my husband being “unbiblical” by leaving that decision up to me?

    Never heard Jesus say, “Don’t go to school. Stay home, find a husband, have kids.”

    Liked by 1 person

  4. It’s kinda true historically that daughters often lived at home until they got married, but a) it wasn’t universal and b) is that just a cultural thing or an eternal command? And it was pretty common for sons to do the same thing, so does he have an explanation for that? Of course a huge number of these families would actually have put the “teamwork” thing into practice, because they were farming so everyone had something, like, literally life-and-death important to do every day. They weren’t 21st century suburban households where dad goes to work and mom cooks with food she bought at supermarket – and the kids won’t even know where milk comes from unless they’re told (not exaggerating: I know of real life cases where that happened!) – wears clothes purchased in the mall and made on another continent, etc.

    It’s really scary how much of a foothold these patriocentrist ideas are getting in supposedly “mainstream” evangelicalism. I could understand a Christian wanting to critique parts of secular feminism, but throwing the entire idea out from the foundations? Heitman better be consistent if he wants to bash feminism in toto, and teach like Doug Phillips did. Tell your daughters (and your wife) that they’re not allowed to vote because you’re the public representative of the family. Because that’s what you get without first wave feminism. And if you don’t want to go with the representative reasoning, you’re left with the old favorite of “teh wimminz are too stupid / emotional / whatever to be trusted with voting.”

    I’m convinced that most of these guys who won’t go there, don’t understand that historically, women’s suffrage is part of feminism. It’s probably just such an assumed part of the status quo for them that they don’t even think through how it got to be the status quo in the first place, and how hard women (and men) had to fight to get it there.

    Liked by 2 people

  5. Well, when his daughter turns 18 there is not much he can do about it if she wants to escape. Of course that means if he won’t help her because she is not following his rules it means she WILL have huge debt to become free from his bondage.

    What a tragedy. He might as well tell her she is worthless and only a man adoring baby machine. Not a valued and worthy child of God.

    I sincerely hope she meets the real Jesus one day. Because her dad is nothing like him in this respect.

    (You ever wonder how on earth these guys spin the women mentioned at the beginning of Luke 8?)

    Liked by 2 people

  6. @ Julie Anne & wouldrathernotsay:

    …what if the daughter is not a Believer?

    A woman needs to be able to support herself to be able to get out of an abusive relationship.

    Now, come on, ladies, you’re losing your touch. You know neither of those things ever happens in good Christian families. 😉

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  7. wouldrathernotsay said
    “As a woman who has a CS degree, who *chose* to stay home with kids once we had them (after 8 years of working) this makes me mad… A woman needs to be able to support herself to be able to get out of an abusive relationship. Sure, we pray that that never happens to our kids. But one of reasons women stay in abusive relationships is that they cannot support themselves without the husband’s income and they don’t want to go back “home” and think they are trapped. Sigh.”

    With these guys and their permanence views on marriage…I would say yes, the woman is trapped. No matter what, the man wins. The man has control. Downright scary…what they promote looks more like another patriarchal woman hating religion we hear so often about in the news. I don’t see much difference. I just wish some had enough….nerve (not my first choice of words) to say it.

    Liked by 2 people

  8. Interesting facts:

    1) Master’s College has 52%/48% male/female enrollment, with a total enrollment of approx. 1100 (ref: http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/masters-college-california-1220)

    2) They even boast of their nearly 1:1 ratio with this choice language – “What is the male/female ratio at TMC? While many Christian colleges operate on a female/male ratio of two or even three to one, we’ve got a level playing field here. Translation: our guy-to-gal ratio is 1-to-1. Sorry, guys.” (ref: http://www.masters.edu/undergrad/faq/)

    3) They even have female intercollegiate sports: “WOMEN Basketball, Soccer, Indoor Track, X-Country/Track, Volleyball”

    Liked by 1 person

  9. I read drivel like those guys have written, and the only response running through my head is “You’re not the boss of me.” And then I don’t pay attention to their attempts to tell me how I’m supposed to interact with my wife and kids.

    Because what those guys fail to recognize is that I’m not my wife’s or kids’ boss either.

    Liked by 4 people

  10. As to the ‘extremely rare’ situation where a husband becomes disabled, my first husband developed a fatal and incurable neurodegenerative disorder which takes between 15-25 years to kill someone. Would Heitman’s church want to volunteer to support my family for a couple of decades? I doubt it.

    Liked by 2 people

  11. Of course JMac is ok with college for women.

    “MacArthur advised the Christian youth to work for marriage as soon as they were out of college. “The longer you wait the more you prolong the struggle with your own flesh, and your own evil desire … and stall off the purpose of God from being fulfilled in your life,” he said.”
    http://www.christianpost.com/news/john-macarthur-tells-how-he-met-his-wife-51586/

    That was at a Resolved conference q/a session in 2011, not a for men only break out session. Men AND women are at Resolved conferences.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. The statement above about a church’s climate changing based on a pastor’s interpretation or views. We did that at my former church. He had in his mind that no one could expose any skin above the knees. He didn’t come out and say, “don’t wear anything above the knees,” but his words convinced us that it was pretty important and we followed suit. It’s very difficult to remain in a church when you knowingly go against the practices of the pastor.

    I think to balance that out – a decent pastor on issues that are not clearly written in the bible would likely say, “this is the conclusion that our family has come to, but you are going to need to search scripture for yourself and come to your own conclusion.”

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Being male, I hesitate to jump in, but here goes: I have two engineering degrees, and I *prefer* the company of educated women (I married one). I could be in the minority, but being upholstered like Dolly Parton isn’t half so interesting to me as engaged intelligence. Those guys who are afraid of their daughters going to college are sharply circumscribing their future marriage prospects.

    Liked by 3 people

  14. What is, additionally, upsetting is that these patriocentrists take for granted that they will even be around by the time their girls are 18, 20, etc. They take for granted that their daughters will in fact find husbands, and they don’t seem to understand that not every woman’s body is able to produce children.

    And it is an extremely unbiblical teaching. What about Deborah, the Judge? Anna the prophetess? Miriam, Moses’ sister; Lydia, the N.T. “dealer in purple cloth”; the entrepreneurial Proverbs 31 woman who makes things, sells them, and buys a field with her earnings…

    Luke 12:16-21, ““The ground of a certain rich man yielded an abundant harvest. He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’ “Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store my surplus grain. 19 And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of grain laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.”’ “But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’ “This is how it will be with whoever stores up things for themselves but is not rich toward God.”

    This teaching absolutely treats people, even a parent’s own precious children as “crops” to store for ourselves.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. Exactly, L. Lawrence. It’s about ownership – what THEY say for their daughter. And if you go read the comments, one woman refers to a young lady as “child.” What’s up with that?

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  16. I’m sure Master’s College admin and recruiting offices are not happy with a guy like Heitman who implies that President JMac holds to this view regarding daughters/college. I’m sure the female professors, staff, students and alumni would have a few words for Heitman.

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  17. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. I am for as much education as my children desire. There are cures for cancer and other diseases to be found, alternative fuels to be discovered, oceans to explore, peace to be spread and technologies that we haven’t even imagined to be discovered. To think only men should be applying themselves to these issues strikes me as incredibly neanderthalic.

    Liked by 2 people

  18. How many daughters trapped in these families turn out angry, depressed, self-distructive and hopeless if their interests and gifts don’t fit into this so-called Biblical role? With limited opportunities to use the gifts God has blessed them with they end up serving, not God, but man and his man made rules. Sad.

    Liked by 2 people

  19. Actually Neanderthal culture from what we know everyone worked, everyone looked / gathered food etc. This idea of women staying home bla bla is new in the sense that we now live in an economy where some families can afford to have a single income. That is changing very quickly with the deliberate murder of the middle class.

    Like

  20. So….. if a woman isn’t allowed to pursue a college education for any reason, that means in Heitman’s world, there’d be no female nurses, midwives, doctors, gynecologists… so all those female patients who prefer to have a FEMALE professional for those kinds of personal issues would be out of luck and forced to endure having a man take care of them. What if that woman is sexual abuse survivor or a rape victim? They’d never see a doctor for their female issues, that’s what.
    What about law enforcement (all kinds) and the pat-down procedures that go with arrest or getting on an airplane etc. etc. If women don’t go to college and learn how to do these things, once again, women will have men touching them where they don’t want to be touched, seeing them where they don’t want to be seen.
    What about Social Workers? Once again, if women don’t go to college and learn this profession, there will be no women to comfort female abuse victims or help children in violent homes.
    I could go on and on and on, I don’t think this man has thought this through, sounds to me like he’s simply using the Bible to justify his ideas and love of control over the women in his life.

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  21. @Gracie:

    But you will sacrifice your daughter on the altar of man through marriage? What’s the difference?!? You are still handing her over to ‘man’!!! Oh wait…that’s “biblical”

    Remember the “penis home” rant by “William Wallace II”?

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  22. @BobFelton:

    I could be in the minority, but being upholstered like Dolly Parton isn’t half so interesting to me as engaged intelligence.

    But if you could have both at once…

    Those guys who are afraid of their daughters going to college are sharply circumscribing their future marriage prospects.

    Ever heard of “Christian Courtship”, AKA “Patriarch-Arranged Marriage”, AKA “Transfer of ownership to form an alliance with a younger beta male and maybe get paid for it”?

    Like

  23. @Diane:

    “MacArthur advised the Christian youth to work for marriage as soon as they were out of college. “The longer you wait the more you prolong the struggle with your own flesh, and your own evil desire … and stall off the purpose of God from being fulfilled in your life,” he said.”

    Again, Salvation by Marriage Alone.

    Like

  24. Pastor Karl earned a Bachelor of Christian Ministry degree from Wayland Baptist University and a Master of Divinity degree from The Master’s Seminary in Sun Valley, CA. He has a passion for Reformed theology, biblical counseling, and the expository (verse-by-verse) preaching of the Word of God.

    “Passion for Reformed theology” = code phrase for “Who needs Christ? There is only CALVIN! CALVIN! CALVIN!”

    Liked by 1 person

  25. Adiaphora. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adiaphora

    Folks who make quasi-biblical pronouncements about adiaphora need to go back to college!

    But I wouldn’t recommend the Masters Seminary as the place to go. That seminary would know the meaning of the word ‘adiaphora’ — but it seems they would allow people to lay down the law on adiaphora so long as they are not too dissonant with the Masters Seminary mindset which is prejudiced against women . . .

    I know of a victim of domestic abuse whose husband (the abuser) studied at the Masters Seminary. The seminary ethos enabled him to easily get away with abusing his wife.

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  26. @HUG- yes. and if I had a daughter, and found out her husband was saying things about women that all these men (and I use the term loosely) were saying, especially about being a penis home, I would have a truck on the property the next day, and she’d be coming home with me because I believe she is a child of God and deserves better than what these guys spout about. Makes you wonder how sheltered or hidden these women are from their family of origin. My own brother wouldn’t stand for ANYONE to speak to me or about me that way.

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  27. Bob,

    I think if you read up on Dolly, you’ll find there’s much more to her than her ‘upholstery’. In fact, she’s quite intelligent and very much the embodiment of an independent, extremely successful woman. She’s ‘done good’, has Dolly!

    Like

  28. “A mind is a terrible thing to waste. I am for as much education as my children desire. There are cures for cancer and other diseases to be found, alternative fuels to be discovered, oceans to explore, peace to be spread and technologies that we haven’t even imagined to be discovered. To think only men should be applying themselves to these issues strikes me as incredibly neanderthalic.”

    You are speaking my language. And Christians (male or female) should be in the forefront of these things because they love God’s creation.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. Oh noes. I already have a college degree, I earned it years ago, and I’m a woman. Seeing as how I’m just now learning that I’m in defiance of God on this matter, is there a Matrix-like way my brain can be hooked up to a machine and all the knowledge I learned sucked out?

    Liked by 1 person

  30. Gracie said, “I believe she is a child of God and deserves better than what these guys spout about.” You get the truck and we’ll volunteer to help you pack.

    One of the guys commenting on the Heitman post, gave a warning, but then writes “I agree with all you said”. He is another contributor to the Parking Space 23 blog and had his own post a few days ago. I’m not sure if he’s trying to use his Pulpiteer army (calvary) language (he likes to attack Caner and Lumpkins) or if he’s listened to too much Driscoll. He writes,

    “If you go out to lunch with you pastor and he seems far off or even a little glassy eyed, it is probably not because he is uninterested in what you are saying, there is a good chance that he is simply spent and his mind has involuntarily wandered off or simply shut off. Just as mounting the pulpit often comes with a surge of adrenaline, stepping down from it often comes with a precipitous drop in energy, and can even come with a drop in mood too.

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  31. Boy then are we (my family) on the opposite side of Heitman. My daughter is a free spirit and does not care for school much; we are urging and encouraging her everyday to keep up with her classes at a local college. I want her to get a degree, especially in this day of technological advancements. You have to have skills and a degree- both men and women.

    Many of these types of women are going to be very frustrated when times get tough and they HAVE to work and the only job will be flipping hamburgers.
    I am saying this as a stay-at-home mom with a nursing degree, but I am glad (even though I do not care for nursing) that I got it. Your confidence goes up a level when you do get a degree. Now, with my children almost out of school, I am ready to go back to school and do something that I would enjoy and more suited for me. God does not create women with all these abilities and talents and then it not be used. We are actually putting our talents in the ground and wasting them “like the wicked servant who wasted his one talent”. Women getting a degree is not selfish or unbiblical at all- it just makes common sense and is using what God made you for!

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  32. I’d like to break my thoughts up into several smaller posts. I don’t mean to dominate the thread, so I hope nobody finds my posts annoying or thinks I’m being pushy (that’s not my intent). Views like the ones in the stuff Julie Anne quoted at top get me riled up, and I have a lot to say sometimes.
    I figure it would be easier for folks to read my comments if they’re broken up over a few short posts, rather than one big long one. Here’s part 1.

    It is interesting how two men with fairly similar views on gender arrive at different conclusions on other things, like one thinks it’s wrong for women to attend college, while the other thinks it’s acceptable.

    But, I note the second guy only deems it acceptable if the young lady attending college sticks to courses like “How to Bake Cakes” and “How to be a submissive wife 101.” He would apparently frown at a woman going after a finance or business degree, for instance, to work as, say, an accountant.

    I am sorry about being a broken record on this, I know I’ve mentioned this before, but this fact has become glaringly obvious to me over the past few years, and I don’t often see too many other Christians pick up on it:

    Gender complementarians (and the patriarchy guys) are obsessed with motherhood and wifehood, which is one indication to me that their views are not biblical, godly, Christian, empathetic, or compassionate.

    Gender complementarians and patriarchy groups make no exceptions for, or acknowledgement of, some women never marry, or they do, but the husband dies, and the never re-marry, or the husband divorced the wife, and some women never have children, perhaps due to infertility.

    The fact that their gender role views apply largely, or only, to married women who are mothers should be a big, red flag that their theology and views of women are not biblical, despite their protestations to the contrary.

    Their only work-around, if they do bring these issues up at all, is to brush them aside by saying, such cases are…

    1. “rare” (no, they‘re not; single Americans now outnumber married ones, see -see this 2014 study, article hosted on Chicago Tribune-, and more and more women are opting out of motherhood – such women are called “child free”).

    2. shame and pressure women into marrying and having children.
    Second to that, which I also find annoying, is that they “give up“ on women over 30. They spend all effort writing blogs and books arguing about how females now – who are teens or early 20s – need to marry, marry soon, and have 34 children.

    If your views of women cannot or do not apply consistently and fairly to all Christian women in all life stages and circumstances, it’s not biblical.

    Where are the gender complementarian articles, books, and conferences encouraging other Christians on how to minster to and help widows, never married adult women, childless women, and the divorced? I never see any.

    All they ever do is shame or scold women for being single and childless and scream at 15 year old females to marry by the time they are 21. No concern is shown how to care for or assist women who do not manage to marry and have a kid.

    Like

  33. Part 2
    Quote,

    The job of being a wife and mother is a high calling and I would argue is the most important job under the sun.
    …If you would be open to learning and being challenged, please listen to Pastor MacArthur’s series called “God’s High Calling for Women” and “The Fulfilled Family.”

    As a woman who never had children, I tire of being told that motherhood is supposedly my only godly role in life, and/or that motherhood is THE most important job ever, etc., as it minimizes my life, struggles, and accomplishments.

    Understand I am not knocking motherhood. I mean no disrespect to women who are mothers. I am only disagreeing with Christians who hype motherhood up to the point they make women who cannot or who do not become mothers sound like sinful failures or rejects of God. According to them, my life is without value and has no purpose.

    I cared for my mother in the couple of years before she died from cancer and other problems. She was like a large infant that last year 1/2 or so of her life. I was helping her to her bedside toilet, or I sometimes had to change her adult diaper, and I weekly washed her bed sheets (sometimes daily if they were soiled).

    I had to feed my mom by hand because she got so weak she couldn’t do it herself. I had to give her baths, get her dressed, I helped take her to doc appointments, etc.

    So yes, I do deeply resent these complementarian guys acting as though I’m totally selfish for being childless, or not as loving as a woman who gave birth to a child, or for acting as though my life doesn’t matter.

    Quote,

    Even so, that situation [husband becomes mentally or physically disabled] is extremely rare.

    It doesn’t matter if it’s rare or not.

    Way to wiggle out of a problem YOU and your side have set up. If your views and teachings on women cannot be applied equally, across the board to all women, in spite of their marital status, health of their spouse (if they have a spouse), etc, it’s not “biblical.”

    I don’t see where or how Jesus came to set up a spirituality that was obtainable or applicable to only 92% of the people 86% of the time.

    (I think Jesus was shooting for 100% / 100%, thank you. He wasn’t like, “Hey, I come to bring Good News and wisdom, but only for 95% of you, and it will only apply like, oh, 56% of the time. The five percent of you ‘left overs’ are hosed, too bad for you.”

    We are, after all, talking about the guy who said he’d leave the 99 sheep to go looking for the ONE lost sheep. I don’t think a guy like that would be okay with a theology or spirituality that hoses even one single person, let alone 5 or 10 percent.)

    A couple of weeks ago, I saw a headline at The Christian Post about a young married couple where the wife had to take over most duties because the husband has a disease / brain damage or was in a car accident. I was unable to find that article to link to it for you all.

    There’s this from The Daily Mail, October 2013:
    “Couple who wed despite all odds after groom’s debilitating accident make touching video of their incredible love story. Though we chose marriage, we chose it sadly’:

    Larissa [the wife] must now be the breadwinner and caretaker in her new family as she watches her friends live the life she thought she’s one day have with Ian [her husband, who “suffered a horrific brain injury while driving to work near Pittsburgh”]”
    ——————————-
    A husband becoming disabled may not be common, but it does happen, and gender complementarian teaching is therefore moot and meaningless to women such as Larissa.

    Sometimes husbands die, and they die young, in their 30s or 40s, from car wrecks, heart attacks. What are women like that going to do if they don’t have a college education?

    Like

  34. Part 3
    Quote,

    The bottom line is this: the Bible does not command women to leave home at a young, vulnerable age, get a formal education, get a reputable job, and then have a family when she feels like it. The individualistic hedonistic culture does.
    One the other hand, the Bible reveals that it is God’s will for women to get married, raise godly children, and keep the home. It’s a high calling.

    The last half (the part that reads it’s supposedly “God’s will for women to get married,” etc) is a total and flat out lie, in that he’s applying it to all women (there is no qualifier there recognizing that God is fine with women who remain single).

    The Bible does not command women to stay at home, avoid a formal education, avoid employment, get married, and have children. Those are all his opinions and his personal preferences, not divine commands.

    You cannot show me a single verse that explicitly says, “Thus the Lord God commands all women every where in all nations for all times to forgo formal education and singleness, but all women are commanded to marry and have children, and they are in sin if they do not.”

    The Bible does not reveal that “it is God’s will for women to get married, raise godly children, and keep the home” – There is not a single Bible verse that states any of that to be a command for all women, in all times and all places. None. A woman who is single, whether by choice or circumstance, is also living a life of “high calling.”

    The New Testament chalks the whole “marry or stay single” thing up as a matter of personal decision. It says if you want to marry, then marry. But if you stay single, you’ve not sinned, either. (Some of us wanted to marry, but we never met the right person.)

    These complementarian guys are penalizing women for things that God does not have an issue with. They should be ashamed to keep using the word “biblical” in their writings when their views have none, or next to no, biblical support.

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  35. Part 4.
    Quote

    What’s not gray is the fact that young Christian women are indeed pursuing the same things as unbelieving women: independence from a man. Eve acted outside the authority and protection of Adam and, well, you know where that led to.

    Not everything in secular culture is wrong, sinful, or unbiblical.

    Unbelieving women sometimes get hair cuts, perms, use air conditioning, and eat sandwiches. I guess this means that Christian women cannot get hair cuts, perms, turn on the A/C in the summer, or eat sandwiches, either. This idea that if secular society approves of something, that automatically makes it wrong, sinful, or suspicious is itself not biblical. And it’s silly.

    The Bible doesn’t teach that women should be “dependent on a man” anyway. Eve’s issue was not that she was independent of Adam but that she chose to disbelieve God and eat the forbidden fruit.

    Fascinating and very troubling how these guys try to make themselves (i.e., the male gender) the center of the Bible and all theology, especially when women are mentioned in a story.

    Ultimately, Eve’s offense was against God, not Adam (or men in general).

    Like

  36. 2. shame and pressure women into marrying and having children.

    See, I can’t quite figure this out, given the assumption that men are supposed to be the initiators—especially regarding marriage. I know Elizabeth Elliott explicitly taught in her book Passion and Purity that women must never take the initiative in dating or marriage proposals. I seriously doubt she is alone among comps in that regard. You’d think more of these guys would do like Mohler and castigate young Christian men in general for not hurrying up and marrying the ladies while still in their early 20s.

    Like

  37. Part 5. I think this is my last post in this series, I am sorry if anyone finds all my posting annoying.

    Quote,

    Yes, Paul spoke of singleness and used his singleness for the ministry. However, Paul was a man. It’s wrong to expect women to keep in step with the cultural, not biblical, mandate.

    No, nothing in the biblical text suggests that Paul’s praises of singlehood was meant for men only.

    And what does Paul’s gender have to do with it? So what that he was a man? That’s a moronic argument.

    Paul also wrote that people should help orphans and widows (I think, unless it was Peter or James who wrote that, but note they were men too so my point still applies), and I believe Paul wrote that believers should not insist that new male, Gentiles be circumcised to follow Jesus.

    I’m a woman, Paul is a man. According to Heitman’s logic, nothing Paul wrote applies to me or any woman, so I guess I can run around insisting things like male, Gentile converts should be circumcised, and everyone can ignore widows and orphans.

    It’s the same logic. I can ignore anything and everything Paul wrote and none of it applies, because I’m a lady and he’s a guy.

    Where is the “Bible For Women,” can he tell me? Did the Holy Spirit make a Ladies Version Only, whose content applies only to women, and another one called, The Dude-Bro Version Only, which is for men only, or the one Bible we do have applies only to men, is that it?

    Also, considering that Jesus Christ stripped away the importance of family, which was over hyped in his culture and day, by saying anyone who calls him Lord is his mother, and that anyone who loves his mother or son more than him is not worthy of him, was showing that spiritual life was more important than home and hearth, sorry Heitman.

    The Bible certainly tells people to care about and for and financially support their flesh and blood family.
    However, to go overboard and insist your family is to be the biggest priority in your life, or your only concern, as these men do – or to argue that “home and family” is to be a woman’s “most important calling in life” or “only godly role” is to ask women to make marriage, home, and family into idols, to directly disobey what Christ taught.

    Also, Paul was asking women to break with the cultural mandate of his day. Back then, in Jewish (and I think I read some where this was also true of ancient Roman culture) culture, it was unacceptable (and sometimes possibly illegal in Roman society) for people to stay single (this is my understanding of having read about the topic).

    Though God never had a problem with singleness, the cultures of the day did. Most women back in Jesus’ and Paul’s culture had to marry if they wanted financial support.

    That women (and men) were being told under Christ (via Paul’s writings too) they could stay single if they so chose, that God was fine with that choice, and that some aspects of single life were preferable or easier than married life, and the church would help singles financially was freeing to women (as well as to men who had no desire to marry or who could not).

    It’s sad and funny to me how the gender complementarian guys of today think it’s biblical to put people back under bondage and burdens that Jesus was trying to lift of people in the first place.

    As to his other quote, 1 Tim 5.14, which he is trying to use to bolster his position:

    14 Therefore, I want younger widows to get married, bear children, keep house, and give the enemy no occasion for reproach;

    I’m not a “young widow.” I’m past 40 and never married. This verse, like the other one he quoted, doesn’t apply to me, either.

    Women today have more opportunities than they did when Paul wrote these letters. Women today can be lawyers, doctors, nurses, teachers, college professors, plumbers, or dental assistants.

    Do we really need to see a verse by Paul that says, “And verily I say unto you, women may work as computer programmers” to understand that they can in fact work as such?

    I don’t think verses such as 1 Tim 5.14 limit women to only housework or argue against them working as doctors or librarians or whatever else. I don’t see how those passages can be interpreted in that way.

    It would kind of be like saying men today in the U.S.A., if they wish to be “biblical,” can only be farmers, tent makers, and fishermen, and that it is “unbiblical” for men to work as auto mechanics, life insurance salesmen, dental assistants, and construction workers, because the Bible only mentions men working as farmers, tentmakers and fishermen. 🙄

    Liked by 1 person

  38. Southern slave owners, who had all sorts of “Biblical” justifications for owning their fellow humans, struggled mightily to keep their slaves from learning even to read. They knew that knowledge would inspire and empower. They knew it would be an effective agent of emancipation.

    Now we have these fundamentalist men actively resisting the education of their own daughters. Readers may draw their own conclusions.

    “. . . and he [Adam/man] shall rule over you [Eve/woman.” (Genesis 3:16b ESV)

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  39. NJ said, (quoting me, Daisy):

    2. shame and pressure women into marrying and having children.
    [NJ replied],
    See, I can’t quite figure this out, given the assumption that men are supposed to be the initiators—especially regarding marriage. I know Elizabeth Elliott explicitly taught in her book Passion and Purity that women must never take the initiative in dating or marriage proposals. I seriously doubt she is alone among comps in that regard. You’d think more of these guys would do like Mohler and castigate young Christian men in general for not hurrying up and marrying the ladies while still in their early 20s.

    That is a very good point.

    Yes, in most dating/ marriage literature I’ve seen by Christians (and even secular advice to single ladies), single ladies are told that men like to pursue, so we ladies should never initiate a relationship. Christians seem to lay this philosophy on even thicker, in that they get into how it’s not “godly” for a woman to initiate, and that God “wired men to be pursuers.”

    I do sometimes see some Christians shaming men for not marrying and for not marrying young. They will assume that such men are deliberately avoiding marriage because (again this is assumed on their part) that such men are spending all day on the couch in their underwear playing video games on their PS3.

    Preacher Mark Driscoll has had some pretty insulting assumptions and rude things he’s written and screamed at single men for being single.

    However, I see single women scolded more intensely more often than single men, for whatever reason.

    Sometimes, it is assumed by these complementarian guys that we single ladies purposefully chose to stay single, that we bought into secular feminism, that we hate men, and that we hate marriage, or that we are so obsessed with our careers we put marriage on the bottom of our list of things to do. The truth is that many of us had hoped and wanted to marry, and we are at a loss to understand why we never got married.

    But it is interesting how we single ladies are taught by Christians not to pursue men, we’re supposed to sit about and just hope, pray, and keep our fingers crossed, and God is supposed to send us a spouse, but we then get blamed if we’re still single past 25.

    Some Christians like to bicker on that last point about the “don’t pursue, just keep waiting” bit and say oh no, waiting on the Lord doesn’t mean just sit there, you need to do this, that, and the other, and you should go out, and some of them will add stuff like, “You need to bat your eyelashes at the guy to let him know you’re interested.”

    Christians cannot even make up their mind what “waiting on God and not pursuing” even means. Some teach it means just pray and sit there while waiting, while others add all these other works on to the concept.

    Anyhow, we single ladies get blamed by some Christians for being single, but we’re not being asked out by Christian men, and the men are told to pursue us but do not pursue.

    Most churches I’ve gone to, there are no single men of my age present, so that’s a moot point. Most churches seem to lack single men of around the the ages late 20s to late 50 or around those ages.

    When I have bothered to attend church in person, the only males in church are usually little boys around aged 5, or married men who are 54 with three kids or like at my father’s church where most of the men are 75 and married (not that I’d want to date a 75 year old single dude). I don’t know how these complementarian guys expect me to marry when there have been no men to pursue me or for me to bat my eyelashes at.

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  40. I don’t know how the campus is set up between Master’s College and Seminary (as in, are they located close to each other), but I just looked through various departments and the faculty represented at both The Master’s College and The Master’s Seminary. There are definitely women professors teaching at TMC, but not even one at The Master’s Seminary where Heitman attended (http://www.tms.edu/Faculty.aspx)

    Matt Tarr, “serves in the counseling dept” at Grace Community, so perhaps he has a better idea of what’s going on at GCC. But, it does make me curious to know what is actually coming out of The Master’s Seminary for Heitman to speak so boldly against women going to college.

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  41. Julie Anne, Master’s College has it’s own campus in Santa Clarita, CA. Master’s Sem is part of the Grace Community Church Campus. There is a separate campus for Grace to You.

    There are indeed women professors and women in key positions at the college, TMC. Not so at the seminary. Since women are not allowed to preach or have “authority” over men, the seminary does not accept women as students and would never ever have women profs. The seminary, TMS, does have some women in the support staff positions (secretary, etc.).

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  42. TMS wives are expected to participate in the Sem Wives group and activities. Leaders of the discipleship group are the wives of sem profs and/or admin. (Some of the leader wives are married to some of the “at-large” or “off-site” elders for the Grace Advance church plants.)

    http://www.tms.edu/semwivesweb/

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  43. That info was very helpful, Kay. I think Heitman needs a reality trip down to TMC so he can see with his own eyes the many women working outside of their homes and teaching college students, even women college students. ::::shudder::::

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  44. Kay the link for the seminary wives gave me a flashback of what it was like to be a Navy officer’s wife. I think we came in on the tail end of all the wifely hoopla in the 80s, but I got a Naval Officer Wives Handbook. There was certain protocol to follow – where to sit, who to greet first, etc. I had to get calling cards printed up to drop off in a plate whenever my husband and went to an official function. I wonder if there are “rules” for the seminary wives? LOL

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  45. Every once in awhile, we get word about the discussion regarding women profs who teach young men (some who graduate then enroll at TMS) and the inevitable question, are these female profs excising “authority” over the male students? So far the powers that be at the college have rejected the attempt to get rid of women faculty. They even have a couple female “Chairperson”s. At times there really is a chasm between the operations of TMC and TMS, both under the headship of JMac.

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  46. Can you imagine how much time has been invested in this “biblical gender roles” which is supposed to be so clear and easy to understand. HA! The thought of having men huddled in a room arguing about such foolishness makes me laugh. So much wasted time.

    Um, guess what, a professor is an authority position. Wasn’t it Piper who talked about the challenges of having to be employed by a female in the business world? I’m sure people really are stewing about those female professors at TMC.

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  47. it seems to me that Mr. Heitman subscribes to something akin to an Amish lifestyle. Using the women-should-remain-at-home-until-married logic, I wonder if there is widespread “biblical” support for prohibiting female admissions to Christian colleges and universities altogether. By extension, women should not be allowed to teach or even work on-campus, right? Oh, wait, Christian women shouldn’t be working anywhere outside the home… Will he also forbid his daughter to wear make-up, cut her hair, wear blue jeans? Just curious where all this biblical legalism begins and ends.

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  48. I’m aware of a number of ladies right now who are making major life changes because their husbands messed up their marriage: affairs, abuse, you name it. These wives are now needing to go back to school so they can get decent jobs to support themselves and their children. Going to college is a means by which women can take care of their families. All of them are regretting not going to school sooner.

    As I have discussed college with one of my daughters, her desire is to get married and have children, but I’m also glad that she is dedicated to complete her degree and have something to fall back on so that she can take care of the homefront if her husband is unable to for whatever reason.

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  49. Julie Anne said, “I wonder if there are “rules” for the seminary wives?”

    I’m sure there are rules written, verbal and self-imposed. The TMC student handbook is a big one. I’m sure TMS has something similar for husbands and wives. Imagine the scrutiny you would be under as a Sem wife from your husband, other Sem students and their wives, not to mention faculty and wives? Then you have some of these guys wanting to be the next JMac, some wanting to surpass him, some thinking they already are better than JMac, some in training to play the role of the Holy Spirit. They must get into each others’ business on a regular basis.

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  50. While searching Heitman’s posting history, a familiar name surfaced.

    Discussion on The Cripplegate
    Facebook friends and sin

    Karl Heitman • a year ago
    Mike, I like your “pearls before swine” principle the best out of all of these. I’ve grown weary of engaging hostile unbelievers on FB. I’ve adopted Tony Miano’s FB philosophy: “unfriend” any “friends” that do nothing except provoke anti Christian dialogue. In other words, my FB page is a way for me to encourage others and share my family’s life with real friends and family; not a way for pagans to attack and slander what I believe. Thoughts about “unfriending?”

    Liked by 1 person

  51. @JulieAnne:

    Kay the link for the seminary wives gave me a flashback of what it was like to be a Navy officer’s wife. I think we came in on the tail end of all the wifely hoopla in the 80s, but I got a Naval Officer Wives Handbook. There was certain protocol to follow –

    Navy is the most tradition-minded of the Armed Forces…

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  52. @Daisy:

    Unbelieving women sometimes get hair cuts, perms, use air conditioning, and eat sandwiches. I guess this means that Christian women cannot get hair cuts, perms, turn on the A/C in the summer, or eat sandwiches, either. This idea that if secular society approves of something, that automatically makes it wrong, sinful, or suspicious is itself not biblical. And it’s silly.

    In the words of Professor Wagstaff:

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  53. Out of fairness to both Karl and myself, I wanted to answer the question, “So what does John MacArthur really think…?” Remember that our blog plainly states, “Each post represents the view of the author, and not necessarily the views of other authors on this blog, or the ministries we are associated with.” That beings said, all the members of our blog strive to accurately exegete and apply biblical texts to both challenge our Christian living and our Christian worldview on contemporary issues and theology. Both Karl and myself are dear friends, and we both wrote an article while in close communication with one another in love to challenge readers to think biblically through the important issue of God’s design for women. That beings said, neither of us would claim to represent Pastor John MacArthur’s teaching on the subject, though we both use various quotes, which we both agree with, from his sermon series on the subject, titled, “God’s High Calling for Women.” The answer to the above question can be found, as MacArthur directly answers, in this sermon series found at gty.org.

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  54. Heitman seems to forget one of the many things that Jesus did to earn the hatred of the Pharisees: He allowed women to follow Him, and take their places in the circle when He taught. They were EDUCATED, and Jesus was their teacher.

    Liked by 1 person

  55. Hi Matt,

    Thanks for stopping by and commenting. I can appreciate the attempt you (both) are making in trying to help others think biblically.

    I think my readers have been able to answer the question: “So, what does John MacArthur really think . .” Through helpful information provided by commenters, the evidence was made clear – even taking a look at The Master’s College, it is obvious that there are women professors and I already knew that women were allowed to attend as a young friend of mine graduated from TMC.

    But even after that issue was settled, it doesn’t settle the issue about how Heitman came across in his wording. Pastor Heitman has a responsibility to use his words carefully. In my opinion, he crossed the line when he attempted to say his response is Biblical, when it is solely his personal opinion. This blog deals with spiritual abuse and many of us have dealt with pastors who made extra-biblical rules. If Pastor Heitman preached his blog post as a sermon and I was sitting in the pew, and bought his arguments, I would have felt guilty that my daughter is currently away from home at college. That’s just not right. No pew sitter should need to feel that guilt based on a pastor’s opinion on something that is not clear in scripture. Now, if I’m feeling guilt about my sin based on preaching, and there are verses that help to bring that sin to light, that’s a whole other story.

    But one more thing – – why the need to refer people to John MacArthur’s teaching? Why not just refer people directly to scripture?

    Edited to add: Earlier today I saw someone had posted a comment at Heitman’s blog encouraging commenter, “Joy” to check out the article and responses here. That comment has since been removed. Matt or Karl, if you are reading this and are responsible for removing that comment, that’s what we call here as the “no-talk rule,” meaning when you are challenged with another opinion/idea, you shut it down. Shutting people down in their communication, or preventing them from having access to information where they can use their own brains to discern is not cool.

    Liked by 1 person

  56. Julie Anne,

    Earlier today I saw someone had posted a comment at Heitman’s blog encouraging commenter, “Joy” to check out the article and responses here. That comment has since been [re]moved.

    I feel like the poor donkey in this classic cartoon (3:03 — 3:17):

    Seriously, though — that was my comment that got deleted. “And I’m Cute Too” is the handle I use on Disqus boards. I kinda suspected my comment might not be well received, if only because it mentions someone else’s blog site. Still, there’s no comment policy on their site that I can see, so I’m left scratching my head, wondering what I did that was so bad.

    I’m glad you spotted the deletion, JA. I might not have noticed otherwise. I’ve checked out ParkingSpace23, and I can’t find any way to ask the administrators what rule I broke. So I hope someone there will respond to you. If I did something wrong, I’d like to understand what it was. If it’s simply a case of shutting out alternate viewpoints, then I know exactly what to think of them.

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  57. Thank you, Julie Anne (and Kay). I appreciate that. Please send along the addresses when you have a spare moment. Though I might wait for a day and see whether someone from ParkingSpace23 responds to you here.

    Thanks again.

    Like

  58. The comments have now been closed on the thread with Heitman having the last word:

    Hi Joy, no offense taken at all. I also believe open discussion can be very valuable as long as we honestly consider opposing arguments and respect each other’s conclusion. At the end of the day, this is not an essential matter. When it comes to secondary issues (matters not pertaining the fundamentals of our faith) we should peacefully co-exist and be long-suffering in the midst of disagreements within the Body of Christ. Out of all those who have voiced their concerns over my post, you have demonstrated a reasonable teachability the most. I commend you for that.

    The goal of my post was not to impose some sort of extra-biblical standard, despite what some have accused me of. I merely hoped and prayed that the portion of my audience who disagreed would be challenged the way you have. I’m extremely encouraged to learn that we both agree that it’s the motive behind young women going to college that should be checked. That was really the gist of my #1 point. I also agree with you that men can also pursue education for the wrong reasons. Absolutely! I probably have a lot more to say that that! However, I didn’t point that out in the post because the post was about young women. Perhaps my next post should address “Why Some Young Men Shouldn’t Be Single.” Anyways, thanks again for the interaction and, like a noble Berean, keep searching the Scriptures (Acts 17:11). Grace to you!

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  59. They are in over their heads. Crisis mode.

    These parking space guys have brought JMac into the mix, put all females at TMC (and females in general) under the microscope of scrutiny to question their motives for their life decisions, and given that Heitman called his position “biblical”, he in turn is basically declaring any father unbiblical who doesn’t hold to those “biblical” views.

    Then their cohort, John Chester declares Northern Virginia as the epicenter for the Militant Homeschooling Movement, gives a warning, but still says he agrees with the post. (Someone posted earlier challenging his epicenter claim. How convenient. The comments have been closed so he can’t respond.)

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  60. Hah. The dyslexia is kicking in something fierce this morning. Don’t know if it is physical weariness/reaction to stress or emotional: This issue is close to my heart, being a big part of what began to pry us loose from the tenets of patriarchy. (How do you tell bright, inquisitive — might I say, even, brilliant? — daughters to hide their light under a bushel, to bury any of their God-given talents in the ground that do not match the homekeeper model so beloved of patriocentricity? How do you do that, and still honor the God Who created them as they are, not as the patriocentrists would have them to be?)

    I will have to read even more slowly and carefully than usual.

    [At the beginning of the article, I read “with a well-known and respected pastor and church leader like MacArthur” as saying, “with a well-known and respected pastor and *cult* leader like MacArthur”. Yikes. And this is after two cups of coffee. I ought to be able to translate plain English into plain English better than that, having sufficient caffeine running in my veins, even though the letters dance and shift about the same as usual…]

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  61. “To be honest, I have a deep concern for her [his daughter] because of the feministic culture we live in. Let’s face it; feminism has so influenced American culture that it has infiltrated the Christian culture just as much in more subtle ways. The average Christian woman is not trained from the home, nor encouraged, to find a husband as an alternative to going to college and starting a career. This is sad and unbiblical.”
    Heitman then explains to his readers why his daughter likely won’t be going to college.

    I’m sitting here in my office chair, rocking back and forth, hands behind my head, trying to envision this:

    Can you imagine a father telling his adult daughter what she can and cannot do with her life and her future?
    What would her response be? Can we think about that for just a minute?
    Where is she in all of this?
    Where do her thoughts, her opinions, her desires fit into his framework?
    Is she allowed to express her voice?
    What if she thinks that God is calling her to something different? Then what?

    Ah, but you see, he’s not just talking about telling adult daughters what to do. He’s talking about raising them from the cradle, imprinting on them the way they should go so that when they are old they shall not depart from it.

    I am haunted by memories of our then-young daughters proudly declaring they have no intentions of going to college. Even now, having left that lifestyle behind, it is very difficult to change that mindset. Yes, there are very good reasons for not going to college, including being saddled with crippling debt as one is starting out one’s adult life. But there are also good reasons for going to college, and (hopefully — we’re still looking into this — since we didn’t put away any money for college, starting from the time they were little, there *is* no money for college now that they are on the cusp, short of what they can earn and perhaps win in scholarships) there are — there *have* to be, please God — mindful, wise ways of seeking higher education.

    I think of a recent conversation with a wistful young mom of my acquaintance, with a very good brain, who married instead of going to college. (And why does it have to be “instead”?)

    And here I am again, commenting, before I get very far into the post. Going off half-cocked, perhaps. Yes, this topic is very triggering for me, and in the forefront of our current struggles.

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  62. I was struck in the comment that Heitman commended Joy for being “teachable.” I can see that word used when someone thinks they are in a position of authority. This would come across much better: “I appreciate your willingness to hear how I came to my conclusions.”

    The unnecessary authoritative language, both in the original article and in the comments, concerns me.

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  63. 1) MY DAUGHTER WON’T GO TO COLLEGE IF…HER MOTIVE IS WRONG.

    A woman was created to fill the role of a helper and a companion, specifically to a husband. That’s why God created Eve (Gen 2:18). Until that happens, nowhere in Scripture does it command fathers to release their daughter into the world and demand that she learn how to fend for herself. We see from Scripture that a “man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake” (1 Cor 11:9). Again, in 1 Tim 2:15, it
    reads, “women will be preserved through the bearing of children.” Not only that, Paul says twice in two different letters that a woman’s primary place of business is in the home (1 Tim 5:14; Tit 2:4).

    Ah. I finally get it. Women as pets.

    If man’s best friend is a dog, what does that make woman?

    You know, that “through the bearing of children” verse… I keep meaning to get back to that, to look at it in the original Greek, but haven’t. I’m wondering if “through” is a promise to sustain a woman in the process of bearing children, sort of an answer to the curse in Genesis 3 that says that woman would be given pain in childbirth.

    As opposed to the verse meaning that a woman’s salvation comes through childbearing. Instead of, say, having a Mediator Who went to the Cross on her behalf.

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  64. Refugee, you have touched on something I noticed about this thread as I read along. I have visiting family around and haven’t been able to read carefully through the responses, but it seems to me that several people have mentioned this idea that women need to get an education JUST IN CASE their husbands cannot provide for the family. I come at the whole idea from a completely different angle. Our daughters were always encouraged to go after a career for the reason you mentioned – they have always been bright, inquisitive, hard-working girls and wanted a university education. Of course, we encouraged that ambition because it is a worthy goal of any person to obtain as much education as possible. Two have chosen to suspend their careers to be stay-at-home mums for awhile, but both of them are still active on committees associated with their careers and plan to return to the workforce. Their education is a vital part of who they are as individuals – they (like many of us) realize how much they DON’T know; it encourages them to never stop learning. I hope your daughters get a chance to have their creative juices challenged – they’ll never regret getting a college/university education. (and they DO eventually get those loans paid off!)

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  65. And so he is the one who can discern everyone’s heart motive and can check it? What if my motive was to get a degree in computer science so I could build systems to help handicapped people communicate? Or maybe program systems to help protect our military and our country? Those noble enough? Or, is it only to go and get a degree in home economics or something? Sigh…

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  66. Carmen, my dad was not a Christian, and yet he encouraged his daughters to get a college degree whether or not we married, in part, so we could support ourselves if a husband turned out not able to support the family (either through death, disability, or desertion).

    OTOH, he also encouraged us to go as far as we could go, in education. “You can do anything you set your mind on,” he used to tell us.

    I would feel a very large and heavy burden to mobilize the church Body and do whatever it takes to care for her, especially if she has no other family support behind her (1 Tim 5:3-4). Even so, that situation is extremely rare.

    Rare? Rare???? The man in the article is deluded, to say that it’s rare that a good, Christian husband possessing the right doctrine will fail by nature or circumstance to support his family. He is blinded by his misinformed faith. What’s that verse, “When the blind leads the blind…”

    In the first place, men are sinners. Even “good,” “Christian” men possessing the “right” doctrine. They can be abusive, and because they are pointing to specific Bible verses, they can even manage to be self-righteous about it. Even lacking that, they might have trouble holding a job because of personality issues. Just because they number themselves among the elect, doesn’t mean that they will live a spotless, blameless life. Their sins are covered. Not prevented.

    In the second place, having the “right” doctrine is no guarantor of a comfortable life. Just ask believers in the Third World. Interesting to contemplate. Do people of his ilk think, if impoverished believers just had the “right” doctrine, then, *poof* — would a Fairy Godmother appear, in a manner of speaking, and wave her wand and make their lives comfortable and Ozzy-and-Harrietish? Peter even told believers that suffering is inevitable, whether you don’t follow Christ, or you *do*.

    Reformed people of my acquaintance despise the prosperity gospel, and yet isn’t calling less-than-perfect circumstances “rare” just preaching the same kind of thing?

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  67. L. Lawrence: “And it is an extremely unbiblical teaching. What about Deborah, the Judge? Anna the prophetess? Miriam, Moses’ sister; Lydia, the N.T. “dealer in purple cloth”; the entrepreneurial Proverbs 31 woman who makes things, sells them, and buys a field with her earnings… ”

    *sigh* When I brought up Deborah in a recent conversation, I was “set straight” by others who insisted that Israel was under God’s curse, and that’s why a woman was a judge instead of a man, as would have been proper.

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  68. I was a female slave in training.

    I was raised in a family like this. It HURT me so much as a little girl and teenager.
    My father did NOT care how I felt physically, emotionally, or what I thought.

    This is what I thought about him and god but never told him, my father is breeding me to be a self hating female slave for one of his friends loser son. I have to get married against my will, in marriage I have to have sex against my will, I have to be pregnant and give birth against my will. Does daddy or god care that this causes me great emotional and vaginal pain? No! they love it.

    I was sexually terrorized as a child, the Christian man who did it loved to rub misogynistic bible verses in my face. As a little girl I was dispirit for the right to say, no! I want to escape my misogynistic, bible loving, head of the house father. I wanted to never see my (women are to be bottom kissing female slaves for men) father again.

    My father did not have to live with another man, my father did not have to be penetrated by a man, my father did not have to be submissive like a dog/slave to a man, my father did not have to be pregnant, my father did not have to give birth. But my selfish, heartless, misogynistic father loved sitting on his bottom rooting that women and little girls have to do these things.

    My mothers father saw to it that she got married the moment she graduated high school, she was seventeen and married a twenty two year old, six foot three, southern Baptist preachers son. My mother was ignorant, had the knowledge and power of an seven year old little girl. My father gloated and bragged to me as a little girl, that he, was the boss of my mother, that he married my mother because she had large breast, that the pain I caused her when she gave birth to me amused and pleasured him. My father spent my teenage years trying to convince me that “rape was not that big of a deal”, his words. My father did NOT love me, my father did NOT love my mother, he wanted us to kiss his bottom, she was his self hating, powerless, uninformed, little girl slave, and he wanted me to be a powerless slave for another Christian mans loser son.

    My father was like my pimp, he was not a father, he was looking out for some boy he did not even know yet, never looking out for me, if it caused me pain but pleasured my father and future husband, so be it, it is my job to live in physical and emotional pain to pleasure my Christian father and Christian husband.

    Empowered, informed women would not marry or stay married to these vile Ariel Castro centric men, that is why they use the bible, brainwashing, and lack of resources and education to get themselves and their loser sons female slaves. I grew up like this, me and my mother were demeaned, exploited, abused, and totally TRAPPED. Christian fathers are pimps.

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  69. Dear Guest,

    Please know that I am terribly sorry you had to go through this. I know when Julie Anne reads this, she will feel the same way I do. It shouldn’t have happened to you. Please know that you are valuable simply for being YOU. There are many people who do not think like your father; they know that what happened to you was WRONG. It was exploitation, plain and simple. You will find many supporters on this blog – Julie Anne wants to hear from you; she will empathize. You have support here. You are a valuable, wonderful woman with talents. Please know this.

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  70. The really ugly thing here is the “Eve acted outside of the authority and protection of Adam” line. No, Mr. Heitman (not pastor, you probably don’t deserve that honorific), Eve acted outside of the authority and protection of the Lord, that was the problem, and so did Adam.

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  71. Dear Guest, I, too, am sorry for what you have had to endure. I hope you are able to do things you really love doing and learn stuff that you are really interested in and spend time with friends who like you for you.

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  72. By the way, my 17 year old home schooled daughter is now entering her sophomore year at a secular state university, and I thank the Lord she has the opportunity to pursue the calling the Lord has for her and to use her intellect. I do not want her dependent and dumbed down. God gave her a brain, and even if her highest calling is ultimately to be a mother–which it may well be, mine is to be a father–wouldn’t I want her sharing a well-developed intellect, the one God gave her, with her children? My wife has a masters in the hard sciences and taught at a major university. She now home schools several children. Think I don’t thank the Lord for her bright mind that she did not let lay idle?

    Do these people ever read Proverbs 31? Do they care what the Bible directly says about the roles of women, such as being actively involved in the marketplace, working as entrepreneurs? No, we get the convoluted backdoor “biblical” inferences of Mr. Heitman (again, I refuse to call him “pastor”)? No, the Bible is to many such as Mr. Heitman a tool in the hands of one who has already made up his mind on a matter independently of the Bible, the convoluted exegesis and twists of the Word of God is confirmation of this.

    And if woman was made FOR MAN, which I believe is so, and it was man who looked about and felt lonely, as the Bible tells us occurred, finding none was suitable for him, rather than being the other way round, would it not logically follow that man needs the woman more than woman needs man? Thus, should Mr. Heitman not be contending that men should not be single instead?

    The funny thing is, Mr. Heitman is closer to doing it “the world’s way” than those with whom he would disagree. For millennia the world has tended to subjugate women, fathers have dominated daughters. That’s the world’s way that ironically Paul, for all he has been twisted and decontextualized by knaves, fought against.

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  73. That whole, “Eve acted outside the blah, blah, blah”. .. story, which puts the blame entirely on the woman is an interpretation. The interpretation of the church I’ve been a member of for over 30 years is this: THEY disobeyed god. That’s it. No surprise that male clergy (at least, the majority of them) cling to that, “It’s all Eve’s fault!” bee ess. A little self-serving, perhaps??

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  74. Pingback: When Fathers Own Their Daughters, A Personal Story: I was a Female Slave in Training | Spiritual Sounding Board

  75. I get frustrated with Genesis 2 being all about husband and wife. Isn’t also about society and being part of community? Yes, the first man and woman but also the start of the first group of people interacting with each other and the world around them.

    And yes, women need an education for their own sakes, each to fulfill her own innate potential, to be capable, productive members of society, able to hold her own, independent yet interdependent.

    This article has been on my mind since it was posted a few days ago. I think Mr Heitman is so afraid of his daughter growing up to ‘need a man like a fish needs the proverbial bicycle’ that he does not realise that he is hampering her true growth and she will end up being dependent and a drain on the man in her life (husband/father/son/???) instead of being a woman of strength of character and intelligence who can be a true support and encouragement and an example to those around her.

    Here is a link to an article written by an insightful teenager about her favourite literary heroine: http://boingboing.net/2014/09/12/hermione.html, which I think is pertinent to the topic.

    My favourite Bible heroine is a young girl who did leave home at a tender age (probably much younger than 18) and worked as a personal maid in a stranger’s home in a foreign country and was used by the Lord so that her mistress’ husband, Naaman, was cured of leprosy.

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  76. “I think Mr Heitman is so afraid of his daughter growing up to ‘need a man like a fish needs the proverbial bicycle’ that he does not realise that he is hampering her true growth and she will end up being dependent and a drain on the man in her life ”

    I think he knows exactly what he is doing. He writes about it publicly. He is in the club. In his club he looks pious and godly. This is about him. His daughter is the pawn. And he does it in the name of Jesus who is basically being blasphemed in the process.

    This stuff online never goes away. I do wonder what she will be like at 40. I hope she escapes.

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  77. “The really ugly thing here is the “Eve acted outside of the authority and protection of Adam” line. No, Mr. Heitman (not pastor, you probably don’t deserve that honorific), Eve acted outside of the authority and protection of the Lord, that was the problem, and so did Adam.”

    Amen. In fact, if these guys understood Gen 3 and Teshuqa (translated as desire) they would have NO leg to stand on with their trying to sell patriarchal sin as virtue. Eve “turned” to Adam instead of God and because of that Adam ruled over her. Eve just dug the hole deeper.

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  78. I’m very interested in finding out if Heitman is running an FIC? Sounds very FIC to me – including the “be teachable” response to Joy. I honestly think he used MacArthur’s name to simply bolster his piece. The church I recently left wouldn’t even allow the MacArthur DVD sets I gave them to be allowed in the lending library until the pastor (who started TMS but never graduated) listened to them all – which he never did. This little FIC with two pastors with no sem degrees were going to decide if MacArthur was good enough under the guise of protecting the flock. I’m not with MacArthur a thousand percent doctrinally as I’m not a Calvinist, but I like him overall. Regardless, the point is – MacArthur’s name can be used to draw attention or a sense of credibility, but if this guy is FIC – it’s likely that Matt doesn’t even know what Heitman is being influenced by and then how subtly and deeply. The congregants don’t always know – in fact, they barely know. You have to look hard and do your homework and be a good Berean – which is not as popular as you would think it *should be in an FIC – especially if you are a woman and speak out there like I did (remember I’m shunned now – God only knows the reason they gave people – I don’t even know – but the enormously unbiblical process they used is a whole ‘nother story and the reason I have a good deal of support from other churches). Bottom line: If Heitman is FIC of the Scott Brown ilk, they simply don’t come right out with these things. In fact, it’s like pulling teeth.

    I had an extensive email exchange with someone I love dearly from my former church and when my friend could no longer defend the children not going to college, she turned to, “Well, the point is, what is your motive?” Sigh……..

    There is no Proverbs 31. There is only Titus 2 – and a wrong understanding of it at that.

    As far as the church helping you – there is a very high price to pay. Very, very high. Very, very heartbreaking.

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  79. oneh20,

    Looking at the list of Heitman’s facebook friends is like looking at a Who’s Who list of people associated with all things Grace (MacArthur). Although he sounds like an FIC guy, he definitely is connected to MacArthur by way of TMS and his connections.

    I too have used JMac materials and heard his teaching for a very long time, but there is something rotten on Roscoe Blvd. and it’s showing up in some of the Sem grads, Grace Advance and in other ministry personalities.

    Someday MacArthur needs to wake up and ask why the ministries bearing his name and that of Grace is drawing these types of men.

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  80. It took less than 10 seconds to find this on FB. He seems to like RC Sproul, Jr. a LOT.

    I can’t remember if Sproul’s church is FIC, but he is certainly into Patriarchy.

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  81. Oneh2O said, “There is no Proverbs 31.”

    Well, actually, there can be, in a Titus-worshipping church. In our old church, it was not frowned upon for a woman to work for her husband’s business. Etsy storefronts (is that what you call them?) were also fine, so long as they didn’t take away from one’s primary duties. Oh, and I think some women did catering or were wedding planners, and others taught lessons (art, music), or did in-home daycare.

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  82. Lots of FIC men go to Shepherd’s Conferences, etc., so that’s not a surprise… What you want to look for is if they are also ingesting Rushdoony, North, Wilson, Brown, Swanson, Bodkin, the old Phillips, etc. Grace does not approve of FICs even though they had Voddie B. speak at Shepherd’s Conference. The stricter FIC’s wives can only work if it’s supporting their husband’s vision/work. There is an FIC spectrum – I’m referring to the more legalistic end.

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  83. Ok, if any of this is true, then my life is completely unbiblical. I cried out to God to save my marriage according to His Word and He did not. Not only did He NOT, losing my marriage left me in a position of homelessness and looking to find a job so that I can take care of myself. No family, no support, no church, no anything. Additionally, if I want a place to live, that would mean sleeping in the same room with someone’s boyfriend, sharing intimate space with a man-breather who isn’t even my husband when I was lawfully wedded to one! So I am considering seminary school, which I have discovered that there isn’t even a place for me at The Master’s Seminary to attend college as a female. If going to college and being a single woman who independently takes care of herself and there is NEVER a chance for marriage again, then God needs to look into this and do something about it. It is cruel to expect that a woman cannot be single and support herself when she has ABSOLUTELY nothing else going for her. It is more kind to take her life than to place a burden of marriage and family on her which circumstances would not make opportunity for, ESPECIALLY after going to God in prayer about her marital situation and it was flagrantly denied.

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  84. This seems like an echo chamber. You are all so convinced all these men are evil and wrong that you make the same error you accuse them of.

    Obviously, there is no commandment in the bible about education and we should place no premium on ignorance which I believe John Macarthur has said before.

    This does not negate the fact that there is a structure God has made and I disagree that wives should just have a right to choose to do anything even if it means they abandon family.

    Marriage is not compulsory and there are some with the gift of singleness. If you desire marriage however, that is a sign you do not have that gift and it is good for both men and women to pursue it in such cases as quickly as possible. I know the kind of havoc that university and delaying marriage had on my own walk with God. Marriage has been such a blessing and we pray for grace every day to model Christ’s relationship with His bride daily.

    I was very clear with my wife prior to us getting married that once we start having kids, I would need her to turn aside from her job to focus on her God-given role and I would also focus on mine to keep her taken care of. It was not easy for her as the culture all around her including so-called ‘Christian’ women like much of what I have read on here have so filled her head with the impression that keeping house is inferior and degrading for her.

    As the man, I have had to stand my ground on that point because much as we usually take every decision together and after much discussion (she is my most trusted counselor afterall), I still have the responsibility to steer our family right and if I am wrong on this, I will bear the consequences before God.

    It has been a struggle but with prayer and studying the Scriptures, she is gradually coming around to it and I thank God that we had Godly counsel such as men like Voddie and Paul Washer to help.

    We are expecting a baby girl soon God-willing and I fully intend for her to have a good education but not merely a secular one. I want to do it differently from the culture because this culture is killing women. Women are basically just men these days. I want her to appreciate her value and beauty and dignity and yes, to have a lot of knowledge about various things. All however, to be focused on serving God in the church and in the home/ministry at the right time.

    Stay blessed!

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  85. @ David MAY 11, 2017 @ 1:58 PM
    So, you support complementarianism or some form of Christian patriarchy?

    David said,
    “This does not negate the fact that there is a structure God has made”

    What structure would that be? If it’s “the male is the “head” ergo man is boss over the woman” that is an error in interpreting the text, or a misapplication of it.

    You (David) said,
    “and I disagree that wives should just have a right to choose to do anything even if it means they abandon family.”

    I guess you can disagree with that all you like, but you’re exactly the kind of man I would not marry.

    You are advocating for men treating grown women (specifically married women) like little children, which is patronizing, and something which the Bible actually discourages.

    Your view of gender roles is the same thing as codependency.
    I have written two or three posts about that topic on my blog, including this one:

    Even Warm and Fuzzy, True, Correctly-Implemented Gender Complementarianism is Harmful to Women, and It’s Still Sexism – Yes All Comps (Refuting “Not All Comps”)

    David said
    “Marriage is not compulsory and there are some with the gift of singleness. ”

    There’s no such thing as the “gift of singleness” (nor is there anything such as “gift of marriage”), not in the manner in which it is taught by most Christians.

    David said,
    “If you desire marriage however, that is a sign you do not have that gift and it is good for both men and women to pursue it”

    Do tell? I’m over 40, wanted to be married, I “pursued” it, but I never got married- was engaged though, but had to dump the guy because he was a selfish, inept moron.

    David said,
    “I know the kind of havoc that university and delaying marriage had on my own walk with God. ”

    I can provide links to several articles and studies that show the younger the marriage, the more likely it is to end in divorce.

    Also, wanting to get married is not a guarantee of marriage. You can want to be married, pursue it, and it still not happen.

    For one thing, there is a huge gender imbalance in Christianity, as there is in conservative Judaism and Mormonism: there are more single females in each of those groups than single men, so not all women who want to marry can do so, unless they marry an atheist.

    David said,
    “I was very clear with my wife prior to us getting married that once we start having kids, I would need her to turn aside from her job to focus on her God-given role”

    And she married you anyhow? Wow. Well, being a mother is not a “God given role.”
    It’s just presented as being another option available for women should they choose to go down that road. Being infertile, childless, or childfree are also merely choices God permits, they are not “God given roles”

    David said
    “It was not easy for her as the culture all around her including so-called ‘Christian’ women like much of what I have read on here have so filled her head with the impression that keeping house is inferior and degrading for her.”

    Oh lord, what a way to twist the views of people on here. In all my years on this blog, all of us have said we are FINE with women who knowingly marry and have kids, if that is what they choose.

    What we oppose are doofus and un-biblical views such as yours, which wrongly assumes that marrying or motherhood are God’s ONLY chosen routes for women, or God’s best or most preferred lifestyles for women.

    You (and your faulty view of women) end up shaming women such as myself who never marry, who never have kids, or who choose not to do those things or are unable (e.g, due to infertility)

    If a woman wants to marry that is fine, but stop presenting marriage or motherhood as duties women “must” fulfill, or as they they are God’s best or only roles for women.

    You’re not supporting godly values, David… you are arguing for sexism against women.

    You said “As the man, I have had to stand my ground on that point because much as we usually take every decision together and after much discussion”

    You’re in a codependent relationship where you treat your wife like a child. I get it. I just find it backwards and sad.

    Some women like that arrangement because they are happy to have someone else to rely on and make all choices for them because they don’t want to take on personal responsibility for their own lives.

    David said
    “I still have the responsibility to steer our family right and if I am wrong on this, I will bear the consequences before God.”

    No, the Bible teaches that each adult is responsible before God for his or her life, choices, and sins – there is only one mediator between woman and God, and the Bible says that one person is JESUS CHRIST, not a husband, father, or uncle.

    You said,
    “Women are basically just men these days.”

    Women, the Bible says, were also created in the image of God.

    Your post was a big, sexist crock and a big sexist steaming pile.

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  86. David said:

    “I still have the responsibility to steer our family right and if I am wrong on this, I will bear the consequences before God.” So, are you saying it is okay for men to steer their family the way they seem best it should go, even if it is harmful to the family. And, because a man will have to answer to God for it it’s okay? Meanwhile, a man could potentially place his wife and children in a bad situation?

    “I want to do it differently from the culture because this culture is killing women. Women are basically just men these days.” No, culture is not killing women. Oppressive and strict guidance to gender roles are not helpful to women either. As far as your comment about women being like men, because I work full-time outside of the home does that mean I’m like a man? I think my husband would strongly disagree with you on that.

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  87. Post Script for David who wrote-

    We are expecting a baby girl soon God-willing and I fully intend for her to have a good education but not merely a secular one. I want to do it differently from the culture because this culture is killing women.

    I grew up in a traditional family, with Christian parents who advocated everything you’re pitching….

    My mother taught me to be a sweet, Jesus loving, feminine, godly girl, which really meant she was teaching me to be codependent: I was taught that I should be passive, lack boundaries, and should I marry, my husband is the decision maker, I don’t get to be my “own person,” etc.

    I cannot stress enough that the malarky you’re pushing is codependency for girls and women, and your daughter will eventually reject it when she’s older and resent you for the years you made her waste over it – I should know, I’ve been through this in my own life.

    And this hogwash you think is so godly (merely because you want to use it to fight back against secular feminism or whatever problems you have with culture) handicapped me in life.

    I had parents who believed very similar to what you do about women, girls, education, gender, marriage, home-making etc, and it did a lot of damage to me. I am speaking from personal experience, not just from the abstract or from books or blogs written by some male preacher who extols the virtue of female submissiveness.

    I’ve spent the last several years un-learning all of this stuff I was raised to believe in regarding marriage, gender, etc.

    I realized by my mid-30s your views about women and marriage are actually not biblical at all, but years before then, I noticed that aspects of views like yours were hampering me.

    I had to dump it and get rid of it to find peace in life, to stop attracting users and abusers. I feel so sorry for your daughter if you bring her up like this… you will be subjecting her to needless years of being a doormat and having to put up with all sorts of rude behavior from people, and she will think of herself as less than boys and men.

    Here is just one of several negative outcomes your daughter may face if you insist on raising her under complementarian gender role beliefs:
    “Bible believing” pastors and the enabling of domestic violence

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  88. “I still have the responsibility to steer our family right and if I am wrong on this, I will bear the consequences before God”

    If you’re wrong, you’re family will have to bear some consequences, too. Do you think God let Sapphira slide by because Annanias steered her wrongly?

    Liked by 1 person

  89. “We are expecting a baby girl soon God-willing and I fully intend for her to have a good education but not merely a secular one. I want to do it differently from the culture because this culture is killing women.”

    David I was born and raised in conservative Christianity. I went to christian home school and had a stay at home submissive mother. My father thought and talked just like you. Self serving, trying to put the he cares for women spin on it. He was a selfish know-nothing wimp that hated women. Conservative Christianity told the gross sadistic little man everything he wanted to be true.

    “because this culture is killing women” I started hurting myself because of your culture. I became suicidal at age 11 because of conservative Christianity. I felt like a sex slave in training and my conservative Christian father and god were my pimps. I wanted to be dead to escape christian men and their selfish demeaning misogyny.

    My father peddled the same man serving pro female slavery slop that you are peddling. He needed to get over his self. I wish I never knew my conservative Christian father. As someone raised in your culture I have told people I would have rather been adopted by two gay men, raised by a single mother, or aborted than being born to a conservative Christian family.

    Again I wish I never knew my father and wish my mother could have had the self respect and love for me to wash her hands of the self important self worshiping joke of a man.

    The fact that he did not want my self hating mother to have a job is MORE proof he was terrified she would have the resources to stop scraping the bottom of the barrel for such a selfish creep like him and do herself and her little girl a favor and dump him.

    I have never been to collage and grew up secluded in a family of southern baptist preachers. I was a hyper conservative hard core Christian when I realized Christianity was nothing more then an ideology created by and for lying, unwanted, creepy, insecure, abusive, selfish, childish, misogynistic week little men to have trapped female slaves in their lives.

    Your culture made me start seeing Christian men in Ariel Castro, Phillip Garrido, and the Taliban. Your culture made me an atheist even though I did not go to collage and everyone in my life were hard core hyper conservative Christians. A wise man would be ashamed. A selfish man will mock and dismiss it.

    Christian men need to grow up, get a spine, and start blaming themselves instead of education and liberals. I have one atheist relative, he became an atheist because of our hyper conservative Christian great grandfathers preaching.

    Like

  90. “I guess you can disagree with that all you like, but you’re exactly the kind of man I would not marry.”

    Hear Hear Miss Daisy. I literally decided at sixteen I would rather be dead than married to a christian man. And men like David were the only men in my toxic life.

    Is this Voddie person the same man that blamed daughters for their fathers cheating on their mothers. If it is Voddie sounds like he and his ilk lust after their own daughters.

    Liked by 1 person

  91. “No, the Bible teaches that each adult is responsible before God for his or her life, choices, and sins – there is only one mediator between woman and God, and the Bible says that one person is JESUS CHRIST, not a husband, father, or uncle.”

    This self worshiping group of Christian men are consistently elevating themselves, their feeble little ego’s needs much elevation. Didn’t the anti Christ do that also?

    Liked by 1 person

  92. You said,
    “Women are basically just men these days.”

    Daisy, I’m glad you pulled this out because it’s one of those weird things I don’t get at all. How are women men? That gets into what makes a woman a woman, doesn’t it? Are women ‘men’ because they got a job? an education? Put on a pair of pants or drove a car?

    How nonsensical. What a way to reduce what god made us as people down to a tiny thing like what we do. Who we are is who we are! And there is a lot more to it than some people think.

    Like

  93. I cannot access CBE’s site – not normally. I can only gain access going through caches of their site.

    Here is a new page by one of their authors about Male Headship:

    You’re Going The Wrong Way: A Response To John Piper (CBE’s site – cached page version)

    The cached version of the page is not as pretty as the normal version, because it doesn’t render all the CSS, but you can still read the text which is the important part.

    Like

  94. Lea said,

    Daisy, you got a degree! That’s clearly where it all went wrong

    Well, that college degree enabled me to get a full time professional job, hence, a regular pay check, and my ex fiance’ sure liked bilking money off me!!

    My ex would always promise to re-pay me the money he took from me (this went on over a period of years), but he never really did (we are talking literally thousands of dollars).

    Some men (~not all men~) are dishonest, selfish dirt balls such as my ex, but guys like David above would have me “submit” to a selfish, inept weenie such as the ex, especially had I married him.

    No way Jose!

    Had I married the ex, due to his laziness and incompetence, I either would’ve had to take over the traditional “man” role and paid all the bills on time, etc, or else, I would’ve ended up hungry, cold, and living in a cardboard box under a bridge.

    I think I made the right decision by breaking up with that guy.

    You know, for David’s and my parent’s gender comp views to work, it takes a decent, stand up, intelligent guy who actually cares about his wife’s needs and who has a steady job.

    If a woman marries an idiot, jerk, or doofus, or, if her husband has a heart attack or dies in a car wreck, she is S.O.L. under complementarianism…

    Unless, in the case of being married to a loser or abuser they allow for divorce, but some of these sexist guys have a “all divorce is bad” teaching.

    Like

  95. Lea said

    Daisy, I’m glad you pulled this out because it’s one of those weird things I don’t get at all. How are women men? That gets into what makes a woman a woman, doesn’t it? Are women ‘men’ because they got a job? an education? Put on a pair of pants or drove a car?

    How nonsensical. What a way to reduce what god made us as people down to a tiny thing like what we do. Who we are is who we are! And there is a lot more to it than some people think.

    Yeah, complementarians tend to create straw-man arguments on this topic.
    I’ve yet to come across anyone (Christians or conservative Non- Christians) who argue that men and women are identical.

    There may be some very far left wing liberal types of people who do that, like the guys who argue on behalf of transgender views, but I don’t see a lot of that coming from egalitarian Christians or secular right wingers who don’t buy into traditional gender roles.

    Saying women are equal to men, or should have equal opportunities, is NOT the same thing as saying “there are zero differences between men and women,” which is what guys such as David argue or believe.

    As for me personally, I do not believe men and women are 100% identical – there are some obvious biological differences – but I think a lot of male/female behavior is socially conditioned.

    I think men and women are more alike than different.

    Also, traits that are “gender neutral” are defined as being masculine or feminine depending on one’s culture.

    In the United States, we generally consider being assertive, risk taking, etc, as being masculine, but being tender, passive, meek, sweet, quiet and neat as being “feminine.”

    In reality, there’s nothing wrong or masculine with a woman being assertive or taking risks or being bold… but if a woman displays those qualities, many complementarians (and I am sorry to say many of my fellow right wingers) will insist such as woman is “trying to be like a man.”

    I don’t think being assertive, out spoken, bold, etc, are feminine or masculine traits, personally. I think our culture just thinks they can be divvied up that way.

    Like

  96. Christianity Hurts said,

    “Hear Hear Miss Daisy. I literally decided at sixteen I would rather be dead than married to a christian man. And men like David were the only men in my toxic life.”

    At least when these complementarian guys make their gender role views known plainly and loudly, it sends me a message to steer clear of them, like if I’m on a dating site. It’s advertising letting me know to stay far, far away!

    I have read and heard, though, about comp men who deliberately mislead women about this, to trap them into marriage or dating.

    They will lie on dating site profiles and say they are egalitarian or feminist, then, after they’ve dated the woman for awhile (or marry her), the mask comes off, and they say they are really comp the entire time.

    So I guess one has to be cautious.
    Most of the time, though, these comp guys bray loudly and proudly about how biblical it is to be complementarian and how all feminism is rotten, etc. They usually like to advertise their comp views out front and in the open on most dating sites I’ve been on. They wear the Comp label as though it’s a badge of honor.

    Like

  97. “Is this Voddie person the same man that blamed daughters for their fathers cheating on their mothers. If it is Voddie sounds like he and his ilk lust after their own daughters.”
    Yep. That’s him …… homeschool, patriarchy, stay-at-home-daughters till daddy finds ‘me husbands, children are “vipers in diapers” Voddie B!

    Like

  98. If a woman marries an idiot, jerk, or doofus, or, if her husband has a heart attack or dies in a car wreck, she is S.O.L. under complementarianism…

    Not just that, think about military wives. Who do they think is making decisions when the husband is on a ship for 1 year with limited ability to phone home?

    For that matter, what do they think women did in the past, when husbands were off fighting in wars and didn’t have phones/texting/facebook?

    These guys don’t really think these theories through.

    Like

  99. I don’t think being assertive, out spoken, bold, etc, are feminine or masculine traits, personally.

    Any more than being ’emotional’ is feminine. /another pet peeve of mine

    Like

  100. I would think there would be a decline in heterosexual marriages if women were becoming like men. A logical, reasonable thought….makes me manly.

    Like

  101. “For that matter, what do they think women did in the past, when husbands were off fighting in wars and didn’t have phones/texting/facebook?

    These guys don’t really think these theories through.”

    Uhm, wife of retired army guy here. Every time hubby went to Iraq, or out of state for training, something major broke down. On his first two deployments to Iraq, there was minimal contact with me – 5th Group, Special Forces – sometimes these guys are gone for weeks, and no one knows where they are!

    Believe me, the guys who push this “woman submit, male headship” cr@p don’t have the backbone to enlist voluntarily. The only way they get into the military is through the draft. 1.). They are control freaks. 2.) They don’t trust women. 3.) It just kills them to have to say, “Sir, yes sir!” and follow orders continuously and consistently.

    I know a man like this who was drafted for Nam. He made his wife live with his parents. They rarely let her leave the house and when she did leave the house, she had to have one of the parents “escort” her – for 4 years! Wife went stark, raving mad when hubby got back from Nam and she got out of that house …… totally out of control, and she still is!

    Like

  102. when she did leave the house, she had to have one of the parents “escort” her – for 4 years!

    OMG!

    Like

  103. Dear David,

    This article is two-and-a-half years old. Did it take you this long to find it?

    We are expecting a baby girl soon God-willing…

    That’s wonderful to hear. I just hope she’s not naturally shy around strangers. If she is, at all costs keep her from within 100 yards of Voddie Baucham. Because, Heaven forbid, if she hides from him out of shyness, he’ll probably insist that you spank her right then and there for disrespecting his ManaGAWDness. And if you disobey him, and refuse to be violent with your little darling… well, where does that leave you?

    https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2013/06/19/crosspost-voddie-baucham-shy-kids-and-spanking-5-times-before-breakfast/

    Of course, that all assumes that you’ll see your daughter as your “little darling”. Considering that you’re a devotee of Baucham, would you see your own kids as “vipers in diapers”, rather than precious ones made in God’s image?

    We know how Baucham sees kids — as evil beings that need to have the devil beaten out of them.

    Like

  104. Also, did this line from David’s post give anyone else the willies?

    It has been a struggle but with prayer and studying the Scriptures, she is gradually coming around to it …

    I wonder… just how long has David been plying her with the misogynistic writings of violence-condoning creeps like Baucham, to get her to “come around to it”?

    Like

  105. I had to step away from the blog, figuratively, Serving. Sometimes I’m in the right frame of mind to deal with it, other times, I am not. It makes me angry. And it makes me want to cry for those women who are continually squelched by “godly” men.

    Like

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