Mental Health and the Church, Spiritual Encouragement, Suicide, Troubling Tweets

Christian Response to Suicide

A look at Christian response to suicide.

Christian response to suicide, Braxton Caner, Robin Williams, Matt Walsh, Kay Warren

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Yesterday, I tweeted this after hearing of Robin Williams’ death by suicide:

https://twitter.com/JamesHartline/status/499020239427100673

I asked him if he considered depression to be sin?
His response:

https://twitter.com/JamesHartline/status/499028075225812992

***

We had more exchanges, he refused to answer my question.
I also got a personal e-mail from someone who had recently gone through postpartum depression and loss. She, too, was seeing heartless comments about suicide and the sin of depression.
***
And then this article from Matt Walsh came through my Facebook feed this morning: Robin Williams didn’t die from a disease, he died from his choice

Here’s an excerpt from Walsh’s article:

So I’m just like you, then, because I can’t stomach the thought of it. I’ve seen it in the neighborhoods where I’ve lived and the schools that I’ve attended. I’ve seen it in my family. I’ve known adults and kids who’ve done it. I’ve seen it on the news and read about it in books, but I can’t comprehend it. The complete, total, absolute rejection of life. The final refusal to see the worth in anything, or the beauty, or the reason, or the point, or the hope. The willingness to saddle your family with the pain and misery and anger that will now plague them for the rest of their lives.

It’s a tragic choice, truly, but it is a choice, and we have to remember that. Your suicide doesn’t happen to you; it doesn’t attack you like cancer or descend upon you like a tornado. It is a decision made by an individual. A bad decision. Always a bad decision.

***

This is what I posted on my Facebook status today:

I’m reminded of the story of Lazarus’ death. Jesus could have raised him from the dead immediately. Instead he saw Mary and Martha and offered comfort to them. I want to have the tender heart of Jesus for hurting people.

I’m aware of 3 suicides in the past couple of weeks. A 15-yr old son of a well-known Christian leader, a mother of 2 in Oregon, and now Robin Williams. We don’t know what was so painful in their life that they chose to end their life prematurely, but there are people all around us who are in pain and could use someone to weep and mourn with them as Jesus modeled for us.

A lot of Christians blame mental health issues on sin. The people I know who have mental health issues have been harmed deeply by others through various kinds of abuse. Sometimes these folks need a little extra tender care and a listening ear. To blame suicide on “sin” is heartless and not very loving. We can do better.

***

We can learn from Kay Warren, wife of popular pastor, Rick Warren, whose son, Matthew committed suicide has responded to these tragedies:

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Let us have the heart of Christ for those who suffer pain and loss.  The world is watching us. The world needs a Christ-like response to pain, not judgment and condemnation.

***

209 thoughts on “Christian Response to Suicide”

  1. I realize that Saul was jealous of David too, Ed. I realize the representations. Not all of David’s traits represent God. He raped Bathsheba, I don’t think God was in that, no way, no how, but he spared David and took his son to humble Him and prepare him for the future. I don’t think that everything is black and white, but I don’t think everything represents God and Satan. I believe some things are written just to show us how to live. I believe when reading we need to open our hearts to the Holy Spirit and see where He wants to take us.

    Respectfully,
    Brenda

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  2. Ed,

    How does one go about ‘looking in to the spiritual’? Is this not mysticism? Many religions are very ‘spiritual’ while being pagan.

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  3. Brenda R asks:

    > Why is it Christians have so much trouble seeing that people may need a specialized physician for their mental health care?

    I have a theory (theological/philosophical). It’s because many Christians hold to a form of dualism. Like the ancient Greeks who held to a form of dualism that said spirit was good, and body (physical world) was bad, many Christians today believe that while the body is subject to illness and injury, the spirit is whole. Since the spirit is not subject to illness or injury, it must be wholly good (sanctified), or wholly evil (in sin).

    This is why it is so easy to condemn somebody to hell that only differs from you on a few points of theology. The evil of their spirit leads them to these contrary beliefs. This is why everything is so black and white. As for mental illness, look at the Southern Baptists. The SBC is only now arguing amongst themselves whether mental illness is even real. We all understand what effect broken bones or diseases have on the body, but the same consideration is not given to mental/spiritual diseases or defects.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Steve Scott,

    Very valid points. Problem is, we are never going to be wholly good in this human body. We are weak vessels and are not above temptation in one form or another. I heard from Baptists (not SBC) years ago that I should not take my son to a counselor when he was young, confused as to why his father left us and blaming himself. I didn’t feel that he was mentally ill, but I still thought their reactions were over the top. All I wanted was for my little boy to understand that he did nothing wrong and reprogram his thoughts and felt like I needed help with that. I didn’t see the problem then and don’t now.

    As long as a person has repented and accepted Christ as their Savior, I really don’t care what their theology is. It is all about your relationship with Jesus.

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  5. ^^ I forgot to complete my thoughts from my comment above.

    Since the spirit is viewed as whole, then depression and suicide (self-murder as it is often called) can only be evil. And we know that no murderer can inherit the kingdom of God, so it is easy for a holder to this dualism to think that all who commit suicide go to hell. It is a twisted way of thinking, yet consistent with its premise.

    Brenda, this is why I think you had so much trouble even with somebody – your son – who didn’t cause the problem, but was merely subject to the effects.

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  6. My wife and I have been troubled about what drives a person (Rich or Poor) into depression and then suicide.

    When my wife suggested that when the depressed lost “Hope” it will drive them over the edge. I got the chills. Hope is a word used in scriptures.

    1 Corinthians 13:13 “now these three remain faith, hope and love”.

    We live in a cruel world where abuse is practiced through Greed, Spiritual Bullying and Humiliation, Mental, Intellectual, Sexual and Physical Sparring (including Wars), that is liberally practiced by Abusers and in some cases (but not always) the Abuser was a victim of Abuse themselves.

    To be fair and caring to Braxton, when JD publicly humiliated Braxton in his quest to take Ergun this probably stimulated an unexpected amount of turmoil to the Caners. Braxton faced an enormous amount pressure above what normal teenagers faced.

    The Caner family have been enduring excessive and lengthy public scrutiny from JD .
    The best thing JD and his Pulpiteers could do is openly recognize and admit their guilty and sorry for is excessive predatory verbal bullying end his public media career in Pulpit and Pen, his Radio Show, Twitter and Facebook.

    In my view it was JD, the Pulpiteers and John Carpenter’s lack of faith after they raised their concerns about Caner to carry on a constant repetitive “Crusade” that stimulated their hateful “Toxic Reformed Methodology” of “heavy handedness” by taking matters into their own hands in order to destroy the Caners rather than embracing a more “loving” way of leaning on the Holy Spirit.

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  7. Brenda:

    “Problem is, we are never going to be wholly good in this human body”.

    Who says? What does ‘wholly good’ mean? How does one measure this? It reminds me of those seeking ‘the greater good’. I ask with all seriousness because has this not been given by our very life whom God created and said was GOOD. Or did he make us bad: wicked sinners? Hasn’t the power of the Holy Spirt completed in us what we cannot do alone, as our helper? Is sin a choice or a curse? Is it God who forces man to sin? Based on Calvin, then yes because we are complete idiots who do not even deserve to LIVE but only suffer. While I do understand man will still sin we also can repent and this too is GOOD! I so believe it is these simple truths that have been so muddled in our minds, due to heresy taught, and it does matter what we believe: because lies rather than TRUTH will only suffocate in many different ways. It is only the TRUTH that will set us free.

    “I heard from Baptists (not SBC) years ago that I should not take my son to a counselor when he was young, confused as to why his father left us and blaming himself”.

    There thinking is: only they have the truth and the ability to counsel, anyone else is evil. Do not go outside of the ‘group’ to get help. Period. Especially help from a non believer for they are evil and we should have nothing to do with them unless you are bringing them to ‘church’ and they will be ‘grateful’ to pass the plate and will gladly take their money too even though it’s evil. This is why we now have paid counselors in the ‘church’. When in fact it is the very church who is leading the way in creating so much mental illness by the very lies they proclaim: Calvinism/New Calvinism, which has taken over almost every denomination in America. Yes, it truly has. This is a doctrine of hopelessness producing hate/suffering/death. It is pure evil and we only continue to see it’s ugly fruits. If you believe in the lies of Total Depravity/Original Sin: that there is no good in you, only evil, including little children and that you are just a wicked sinner unable to do good you too will live a hopeless life. And, you will even be unable to repent based on the very folly believed because after all there is nothing good in you so how can you do something so loving and beautiful such as repenting?! All one can do is ask and beg the church to preach grace to them like they have preached to you for years. Ridiculous. In other words, forget my sins while we use your sins as examples in Sunday school. These men and women who teach this evil doctrine are falling one by one in to the very pits they have dug. Do take note how many of these ‘fallen pastors’ boast in Calvin. Do we need any more examples in front of our eyes to wake up to this perversion? Do we need more suicides before we say enough let’s get to the root many of the problems: a doctrine without love producing hate of self and others leading to suffering and even death. One death is too many.

    No, we are GOOD and able to do good, even more so if we believe in out Lord Jesus Christ because we have been given a helper, the Holy Spirit, we are equipped to overcome ANYTHING! To be sure we will still sin, but should sin less and less ( we need to understand the difference between sinning and sinners: those who make a practice of sinning) and when we do sin we will run to confess and repent with those whom we hurt and you will even bring restitution with you! This is LOVE, this is GOOD. WE were NOT created evil nor is God Almighty evil.

    Anyone who preaches and teaches the doctrines of Calvinism/New Calvinism as truth, preaches and teaches lies. All need to heed the warnings from God regarding men who pervert and distort his Holy Word. I do fear for their souls even though they mock women and their preaching!

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  8. Miss Daisy Flower-
    I really do appreciate your openness and candor. I have read your comments and I understand what you are saying. Each one of us are so different in how we deal with the struggles of life and some go through way more due to trauma. I suffered with clinical depression after the miscarriage of a child. For me, it was a mixture of post-partum and spiritual issues. I was suffering from anorexia also, not because I wanted to be skinny, but just to waste away. So it was basically suicide by starving myself. God showed Himself to me by physically wrapping His arms around me and saying to me “What path do you want Faith- life or death”? I chose life- this was my choice. Now today I have bouts of depression and anxiety because of fibromyalgia.
    Depression (and any mental illness) is multifaceted – one cannot make judgments about something so individual.

    ps. by the MDF, I said my differing opinions about Nelson Mandela and got shot down real quick (and I was not even calling him names or anything derogatory)! If I would have continued I probably would have been put in probation. 🙂

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  9. pondering,
    I’m not sure what I said that appears to have set you off, but I am not a Calvinist or Arminian. We are being perfected, but won’t be completely perfect in this body. The Holy Spirit guides and teaches us. It doesn’t mean we always listen and always take the right road. We have thoughts that we may need to ask forgiveness for. We loose faith when things get hard. We say things in the heat of anger that perhaps should not have been said.

    We may sometimes sin even without recognizing it. We are born into a sinful world. Have you ever seen a child that was taught how to lie. I haven’t. A little one’s mother asks who took the last cookie, oh that was their invisible friend. Whew! Got out of that one. Is a lie sin. Of course it is, but a child doesn’t recognize it until they come to recognize right from wrong. Until then, they are under God’s protection. After, they will need to repent, trust in Christ and the Holy Spirit will begin to guide

    I for one do not feel hopeless. I have gone through times of despair. I also know that if the church I attend is teaching doctrine that does not measure up with the Word of God then I’m finding a new church. There seems to be a lot of that Calvin stuff going on, but I have been spared from most of it. Hallelujah!! I have never been in a church that has paid counselors so I know nothing about that at all. I have gone to a counselor who happened to be a Christian and she was awesome.

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  10. Brenda,

    No, no I am not set off at all which is why I said that I ask with all seriousness. Please do not read into my questions. Questions are good! Thinking is good! I always love reading your comments! 🙂 I was responding to a statement you made about we can never be wholly good in this life. What does ‘wholly good’ look like…. And, I never implied that you were anything but stating the sad fact that Calvinism is indeed much of the ‘churches’ problem today. And we all need to have an understanding because our children are going to be affected as they are a huge target for this movement. See John Piper’s Cross conference. Look at Braxton’s life.

    Many are hopeless today. So very many. And, I am speaking more of those who would claim to be a Christian. Yes, there is a lot of Calvin stuff going on. It is terrible. Praise God you have been spared as of yet from his wicked teachings. I never want to receive another call from a dear friend saying her boy has just jumped off the Golden Gate Bridge or that another father with you children just killed himself or a young teenage girl hung herself in her closet…..I do believe we all need to understand the Counceling movement as well.

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  11. pondering,

    I apologize. Sometimes I read things and hear the X’s voice and it doesn’t sound real nice. He just doesn’t seem to want to go away and the evil one uses it to his benefit in my brain. Have I done this to you before? It seems like I may have. Again, I am sorry.

    When I said “wholly good”, I probably could have said perfect. The only one who walked this earth and was perfect throughout his life, died on a cross to cover my sins. He is working on us on a continual basis and the more we learn to lean on Him the easier it gets. Even trials and valleys get easier. The more I ask Him to replace the cracks in my heart with His Spirit the more He does and the better I feel. I have the sheet music for “I Can’t Even Walk Without You Holding My Hand”. I sing it every single day. It is the truth. Without Him, I do not know what I’d do or where I’d be.

    There are Calvinist books in the church library, I do not partake. I figured out John Piperism early on, once I even knew who he was, and make a stand against his teaching at every opportunity. Actually, him and anyone else remotely related to that type of teaching. Any Patriarch’s out there, you’re on my list too.

    I believe what has been said about those who have recently ended their lives in any sort of negative way is appalling. No matter how one dies, there are people left behind that loved them and are grieving. Then there are those with no empathy or sympathy that make matters worse. In the case of Braxton and other young people bullied on social media, it just doesn’t take a whole lot to make their world so off balance and they don’t know how to deal with it. They are unprepared to handle such situations. They aren’t even ready to leave the nest and the crows are out to devour them.

    I didn’t listen to those in the Baptist church that did not condone counseling and won’t. I’ve heard people say that God is all we need and that we need to pray more. I think God sometimes wants us to figure things out for ourselves. AKA: Walking in faith. He can work through a counselor just like he can anyone else. If the counselor doesn’t reflect an image of God’s wisdom, find another one.

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  12. Brenda,

    Peace! 🙂

    “without Him, I do not know what I’d do or where I would be”.

    Amen! What is so terrible is this is happening to those who do claim to know God, to be a believer, yet leave notes saying all is well with my soul before taking one’s life. This of course cannot be because LIFE is GOOD and death is not good therefore taking ones life is not good so our soul cannot be well.

    The dark teachings of Calvinism is that death is good, suffering is good. So image a young boy who has a ‘pastor’ intentionally going after him, in order to get to his father, what this poor boy must have been thinking. Our children want to protect us especially at this age, for to attack the father is to attack his entire family and to attack a child is attacking his entire family, in fact the whole body suffers, aren’t we all suffering from this tragedy?

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  13. pondering,
    If I am called on to die, be rejected or suffer for the cause of Christ I sincerely hope that I will have enough faith in Him to get through it. Suffering for the sake of suffering or because some cult ministers think they know better than anyone else is not suffering for Christ’s sake, it is evil. Innocent blood is on someone’s hands. It is a tragedy that affects everyone. As Christians we need to live in love, but also be wise enough to cast out those that are leading our children astray.

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  14. Brenda,

    You said: “I realize that Saul was jealous of David too, Ed. I realize the representations. Not all of David’s traits represent God. He raped Bathsheba…”

    You wish to concentrate on the carnal.  I’m concentrating on the spiritual.

    I don’t know how I can explain this further.  The Bible is not as black and white as you wish to present it to me.

    Next:

    I referenced Romans 5:13 twice now, without quoting it.  That is in regards to the Pharaoh and Abraham, and everyone else in creation that has NO KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL.  Caps for emphasis.  

    Romans 5:13 NIVr Before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not judged when there is no law.

    Romans 5:13 KJV For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil is necessary. 

    Ed

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  15. Pondering,

    It’s easy to see if you ask yourself “Can I see Jesus in this?”

    Example:

    David Represents God the Father Solomon Represents God the Son

    Abraham Represents God the Father Isaac Represents God the Son

    The Promised Land Represents the COUNTRY of Israel, with it’s specific borders. The Promised Land is Heaven.

    The Promised seed is Isaac The Promised seed is Jesus

    The Story of Noahs Ark is a representation of the Rapture The Story of Jonah is a representation of the crucifixion of Jesus.

    I could go on and on and on. Seed is a carnal representation of what is eternal.

    I would highly recommend people to listen to preachers and teachers such as Perry Stone.  Just go to youtube and do a search for him.  He’s very good.  In addition, there are a lot of people in Christendom that teaches these kinds of things.

    There is treasure to be found…if only people would seek.

    Ed

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  16. Ed,

    “Can I see Jesus in this “.

    I fear many people use these very words to bring about evil while claiming to see Jesus or be led by Jesus such as Jim Jones. Watch the documentary of Jonestown. We should never forget this.

    Also. there are people who do not want to cut a tree down because they see Jesus in the tree. ?

    “Looking in to the spiritual”

    I would need a reference because where are we commanded to look in to the spiritual? Is this not mysticism? Who determines what is spiritual and what is not?

    I have never heard Mr. Stone but will look him up! Thanks

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  17. Pondering,

    Huh?  This is not mysticism.  

    You said: “I would need a reference because where are we commanded to look in to the spiritual?”

    Really?  You don’t know?  Really?  Question:  Is Jesus called the Lamb of God?  If so, why?  How do you come to that conclusion?  Where did you find the answer?  Is Jesus a Lamb, or a man, or God?  Which is it? 

    Ed

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  18. “…nor is God Almighty evil.”

    And it is a shattered view of God that also causes suicidal thoughts and actions. Once the hope in a safe and beautiful God is gone, for some there is nothing left.

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  19. Dear Ed,
    I look at the Bible as a whole complete work of God, both the spiritual and the carnal. I trust it in its entirety. I read Romans 5:13 and reflected on it, each time you referenced it. I cannot look at a subject from just one verse. I have to look at the whole of who God is. I believe their are believers and unbelievers. When Jesus asked for forgiveness for their crucifying Him and asking for His death that relieved those people of that particular sin which would have come with major consequences to them. For that they are forgiven. They were not forgiven of all sin and many continued in their sin after His resurrection. They did not repent of the remainder of their sin, they did not turn to Christ as Savior, they stand condemned.

    I concentrate on learning who God/Jesus is. There is carnal in the Bible and there is a war between God and Satan. I gave my heart to God. Yeah God!! Thank you Jesus. Satan is not winning in my life. We were given free will from the very beginning. We are obedient or we’re not. There is much to be learned from the Word. Do you know how many ministers do not see that abuse is spoke of in Saul, Nabal and others? They couldn’t get a sermon on Abusive behavior if they tried. They don’t see it. They won’t recognize it. I concentrate on what He chooses to show me.

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  20. Brenda,

    Believers and unbelievers.  That is a good topic.

    The key word in that study is the word “REJECT”.

    No one can be an unbeliever unless they reject.

    Ignorant people are not unbelievers.

    Romans 2:14-16 covers the ignorant.

    Also, read Deuteronomy 1:39.  Also, dissect Romans 7.  Then dissect Romans 6.  Some people stop midway thru verse 2 of Chapter 6.  But you must continue thru the remaining of verse 2, and add the rest of the chapter.  It shows that it isn’t grace plus law.  It shows that it is grace without law.  Romans 3 also shows that the righteousness of God is without law.

    Romans 4 tells the story of Abraham, and tells why he didn’t have the law. 

    Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will NOT impute sin. 

    The Law was given SO THAT sin would INCREASE. 

    Those last two sentences are actual quotes in the Bible.

    Pay attention to the word “IMPUTE”. 

    For all have sinned, yes.  But sin is not imputed where there is no law, because the law gives way to wrath.

    Ed

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  21. Question: Is Jesus called the Lamb of God? If so, why? How do you come to that conclusion? Where did you find the answer? Is Jesus a Lamb, or a man, or God? Which is it?

    Ed,
    All of the above. Jesus is the sacrificial Lamb of God, John 1. The final and supreme sacrifice. In the OT, lambs seemed to be the sacrifice of burnt offerings more than any. He is a lion. The one who turned over the tables in the house of worship. He is alpha and omega the beginning and the end. He is the Light of the World. Jesus is God & man. He was Spirit and flesh while walking this Earth. Fortunately for us the Spirit was stronger than the flesh. He is everything!! He was tempted, but above temptation. I don’t know about you, but I haven’t always been above temptation.

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  22. Brenda,

    You are on the right track, but it doesn’t go deep enough.  The Passover feast represents Christ crucified, and resurrected.

    All of the feasts are prophetic, hence spiritual revelation.  It isn’t just a feast with food and drink that God commands the Jews to perform.  It is a story of Jesus hidden. 

    The blood on the door posts in the book of Exodus represents the blood of Jesus.  The scapegoat in another passage (not related to Passover) represents Jesus.  The Bible is full of things hidden to reveal Jesus.

    Every detail of the Passover is about Jesus.  The carnal folks will just see it as a feast of food and drink and sacrifice that God commanded.  The Pharisees do not see Jesus in that at all. 

    Also, note that God never departed the Jews until…

    As long as sacrifices were in place, the relationship between God and the children of Israel never ceased.  And the sacrifices can only take place when there is a temple, and a holy of holies to do such sacrifice.

    At present, there is no temple. We are the temple.  Temple.  Another spiritual aspect of the Bible.  We are the priests.  Another spiritual aspect of the Bible.  Priests from the OT have business to the Temple. 

    It is said that the New Test reveals the Old Test.  Well, dig in and see what is revealed.  And I can say that there is much more revealed when you dig in.

    Ed

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  23. Marsh,

    I know!! LOL.  I’ve heard too many good things about him, so I guess I need to.

    Did you guys all order the book, or is it online or what?  I haven’t kept up with the blog post in regards to this.

    Ed

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  24. Hello again Ed,
    It went as deep as I was going at the time. We do completely agree about the respresentation of Passover.

    Well Ed, I will be digging until the Lord takes me home. My heart is open for whatever HE wants to teach me.

    Marsha,
    I am enjoying N. T. Wright’s book, Simply Jesus.

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  25. Ed,
    I got the book at the library. I wasn’t sure about reading his work since I knew nothing about him, but I have liked it so far. Finishing chapter 8.

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  26. Brenda,

    OK, cool.  I have a library just up the street from me.  I keep forgetting that they have religious books….lol

    Ed

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  27. Oasis,

    “And it is a shattered view of God that also causes suicidal thoughts and actons”.

    Yes. Yes. It grieves me so….that so many are utterly confused about who God is and who they are. It can lead to utter hopelessness.

    Have you seen the movie, Noah? While it is unbiblical, to me this film ever so acurately depicts the teachings in many churches today:O S/ T D! One does not have to wonder how Hollywood came up with this story:God as a tyrant and not LOVE. These doctrines are being lived out for the world to see just how ugly they are.

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  28. Pondering,

    Forgive me for asking, but what is O S/ T D?

    My mind is on football, so not knowing what you mean, my mind is on Off Side, and Touch Down.  LOL!

    Ed

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  29. So did anybody besides Sarah above notice that Matt Walsh made a blog post replying to his critics? I’m afraid my link got lost in the discussion about Judas.

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  30. Ed,

    Why mock and belittle me over questions I asked you regarding comments you made? Why?

    Isn’t there enough of this going on? Why would anyone want to do this to another human being who simply asked a question? Why not just answer my questions? Why send me back a boatload of questions without answering?

    This is why many people are so discouraged from asking questions, especially our youth, women, or those who have been under unbiblical teachings and told what to think, therefore they remain in silence, unable to have their questions answered. Never ever should we behave like this. Christians love to tear down.

    Would you please answer my questions? It’s okay if you don’t want to!

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  31. Hmmm? Perfect??? Now???

    Heb 10:14
    For by one offering he hath PERFECTED for ever them that are sanctified.

    Gen 6:9
    …Noah was a just man and PERFECT in his generations,
    and Noah walked with God.

    2 Sam 22:33
    God is my strength and power: and he maketh my way PERFECT.

    Psalm 18:32
    It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way PERFECT.

    Heb 7:19
    For the law made *nothing perfect,*
    but the bringing in of a better hope did;

    Gal 3:3
    Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit,
    are ye now made PERFECT by the flesh?
    Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
    He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit,
    and worketh miracles among you,
    doeth he it by the works of the law,
    or by the hearing of faith?

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  32. I am sorry, Pondering, but I did not mock or belittle.  I have no clue what O S/ T D is.  And I attempted to give it a bit of humor.

    Sorry that you are offended.

    Ed

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  33. Pondering,

    This may be a bit cryptic, but you will find the answers to your questions when you answer my questions to you.

    And, here is a hint: Read what all I have spoken to Brenda above.

    If you have no needs, wants, or desires to seek out the hidden treasures in the Old Test, aka spiritual revelations, that is your choice.  It’s not required.  All I am saying is that there is a wealth of information that “some” Christians have no clue about.

    But many do.

    Ed

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  34. Pondering,

    Original Sin and Total Depravity. Ok. Thanks.

    Who needs Christ when you have Calvin?

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  35. Ed,

    ” Huh? This is not mysticism.

    You said: I would need a reference because where are we commanded to look in to the spiritual?

    Really? You don’t know? Really? Question: Is Jesus called the Lamb of God? If so, why? Howdo you come to that conclussion? Where did you find the answer? Is Jesus a Lamb, a man, or God? Which is It?

    Ed ”

    Now, would you please read my rsponse above again. This is mocking.

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  36. No, I don’t see it as mocking.  If you were to see me face to face, this is how I talk, and no one considers it mocking.  Only when they see it on a computer screen.

    People today do indeed say, “Really?”, with the octave of their voice up one notch.  It’s a catchphrase these days, like the word “NOT” was a catchphrase back in the 90’s.  Get jiggy with it!  Obviously, my humor doesn’t humor you.

    But, my questions to you was serious beyond the word “Really?”

    Ed

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  37. Ed,

    I hope you come to see this for what it is: mocking. It matters not the tone but the words. Words mean things.

    Enough about that Ed, I am sure you and I would get along just jolly! Now, lets get back to questions, shall we? 🙂

    I would like scripture references for my questions and not more questions please! 🙂 I won’t bother you again if you cannot find them! But, please don’t lead me to another man’s response! Thank you much.

    Like

  38. Pondering,

    Romans 8:6
    For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

    1 Corinthians 3:1
    And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

    Proverbs 25:2
    It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

    Here is one example:

    Let’s look at Matthew 1:1
    “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”

    Clearly the Bible shows that Jesus is the son of David.

    In the following, Jesus asks the Pharisees about who’s son the Christ is. And they answered CORRECTLY.

    Matthew 22:42
    Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

    But look at how Jesus turns it around.

    Verses 41-46

    41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

    42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The son of David.

    43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,

    44 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?

    46 And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

    Jesus is pointing to the spiritual here. Jesus is telling them that, although, the Christ is the descendent of David, that Jesus created David. Root/Offspring. The Pharisees are carnal interpreters, while Jesus is spiritual.

    Revelation 22:16
    I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David.

    NEXT:

    John 3:9-12
    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

    NOTE: IS Jesus mocking?

    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

    Next:

    After Jesus resurrected from the dead, Jesus had to OPEN the scriptures

    Luke 24:44
    And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

    Jesus had just opened the eyes of the blind. They were spiritually blind, not carnally blind.

    Luke 24:27
    And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

    Isaiah 29:18
    And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

    There is many more examples that I could give.

    Ed

    Like

  39. “It can lead to utter hopelessness.”

    Yes! I was taught that Jesus, the one person I could count on to be safe, the one I could trust to always have pure intentions toward me, my healer and defender who loves me…had actually utterly betrayed me and was the very orchestrator of life-destroying child abuse. God became the biggest monster of all, and neither my mind nor heart could take it: The death of love, of goodness, of life. I could write a book about the emotional and mental torture that followed, the war in my mind that still will not die, even after completely rejecting such darkness and insanity…

    But…I am going to fight the despair and win the mind war! And for anyone reading this who can relate to such crushing pain: Know that there is hope, and that it truly is safe to believe that God is beautiful, far more beautiful and glorious than that!!!

    No, never saw that Noah movie, but thanks for mentioning it, because now I know not to watch something so triggering. I understand what you’re saying; the tyrant god is a popular lie, promoted all around us. The bad fruit/trail of destruction from this thinking and teaching, such as suicide, is real.

    Like

  40. Ed,

    There are numerous reason why I have concerns with the two phrases: “can I see Jesus in this?” and “looking in to the spiritual”, because I believe both have caused man to commit many sins and abuse- even murder. This is why I was asking you to please show me where God tells man to do such things in His word, not what another man says.

    Throughout history we have numerous examples of men who have claimed similar words in an attempt to validate their false religions: Mormonism/Islam/Catholicism/Calvinism/Lutheranism. All follow the teachings of man, not God.

    Today we have men who claim to have spiritual insight, who now believe they are our ‘spiritual leaders’- men leading the ignorant, we are told that we are totally depraved, and as a result many live out this depravity in their lives; men ‘called’ to lead the people- but to what? Whatever they deem to be ‘spiritual’? Whatever they see while looking into the spiritual. Can spiritual even be seen, or is spiritual understood? I am asking myself! And, aren’t there also spiritual forces of wickedness?

    I have heard also from reformed teachers (mystics) who teach that by “Prayer Mapping”, men and women are taught how to ‘look inside’ themselves and others from a spiritual vantage point, enabling us to diagnose spiritual diseases. This religious psychobabble took years to morph!

    Once, I walked in to a store and was asked by someone whom I had never met to ‘Look!’ so I started looking, not sure what to look AT, then I was asked: “Do you see….do you see all the stars lining up?”….”are you seeing the spiritual things….do you feel the energy, surely it was the energies who brought you through those doors!” the lady exclaimed.

    I do not see anywhere in the scriptures where God asks or tells us to do either. But perhaps 1 Colossians 9- best explains what God has spoken to us:

    “For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you will walk in a manner worthy of The Lord, to please in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God: strengthened with all power……”

    I do not believe God has called us to ‘see Jesus in this’ (whatever ‘this’ may be). God has not called man to ‘see’ Jesus, but He has called all men to BELIEVE in Jesus Christ. We understand Christ is the Lamb of God because it is written in the Word of God: a Lamb (and not a kitten).

    So when I hear phrases such as “can I see Jesus in this”, and “looking in to the spiritual”, I see this leading down the slippery slope into the darkness of mysticism and the occult. And, I am not at all saying you are doing this!! Do you now understand why I questioned, so much to think about isn’t there?

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  41. OK, I understand where you are coming from. When I say, “Can you see Jesus in this”, I am not discussing, as the Catholics do, “Do you see Mary in this piece of toast”.

    I am discussing scripture only.

    Here is just one more example (Pay particular attention to verse 34, then go back to verse 27):

    Acts 2:25-36 (See Psalms 16:8-11)
    25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

    26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

    27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

    29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

    30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

    31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.

    32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

    33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

    36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

    —————–

    Note that David uses a lot of I and My statements.

    Peter is showing that David is NOT speaking of himself, but that he is speaking about Jesus. All of the Prophets, including The Law of Moses prophesy of Jesus.

    When you read the New Test, there is many many many quotes in the New Test that came out of the Old Test.

    Those quotes reveal Jesus. If you read the Old Test carnally, you can’t see Jesus. When you open your eyes, you see Jesus. Not physically as in a cloud like many people can see a cat in a cloud, etc. But you learn about Jesus.

    But all of these things are for you to decide for yourself. So I am not advocating that you take my word for it, nor do I demand that you do anything. I’m just saying that information is there, if you want it.

    You said that you would check out Perry Stone. I don’t believe everything that he states, but it sure is worth listening to, and some of the things that he states has credence. Your nick is called “Pondering”. Ponder these things.

    There is mystery in Hebrew words, too. Such as the word “Benjamin”. Break that down in Hebrew. Ben means “SON”. Yamin means “RIGHT HAND”. Son of the Right Hand.

    Son of the Right hand is Jesus, the Son of God. Benjamin is not the Son of God.

    According to the Old Test scriptures, the virgin was to name her child Emanuel, not Jesus. But we know that Jesus is Emanuel. Emanuel means “God with Us”. Jesus is God with us.

    I find it difficult to convince people that asks “Where do I find that God commanded us to____________(fill in blank).

    I guess we just have a different mindset on the word “spiritual”.

    So let me further explain:

    1 Corinthians 4:18
    18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

    Carnal is the things that you can see. Spiritual is the things that you cannot see.

    Ed

    Like

  42. Looking at the tweets by Kay Warren, all I can say is that Kay Warren has so much class…..and love and compassion. She is an example of love in action.

    Like

  43. Ok. So I looked up Perry Stone. The first video that came up was nothing but trying to sell videos, cd’s and books. He was selling himself. The second “Urgent message” was promoting a prophecy meeting with several ministers that would be speaking in October. The third was a message RE: is God removing his hand from American and then moves on once again to selling product. I’m not impressed.

    Like

  44. Brenda,

    That’s fine.  His show is called Manna-Fest on TV.  I already said that I don’t agree with everything that he states.  Unfortunately, the choices of his broadcast from YouTube is terrible. 

    And, I have no problem of him selling DVD’s.  He’s not selling himself. 

    Listening to him in short 5 minute segments, or such, doesn’t give a “lesson”.

    But when he teaches, that is what I want to hear.  And I am impressed.

    He is a Hebraic scholar, and he has credibility.  Many of his shows are broadcast from Jerusalem, or Israel.  He gets people to think. 

    It’s ok to disagree.  He doesn’t advocate that people believe what he states.  He’s just giving insight of the deeper things of God that most Christians either don’t believe in, refuse to believe in, think it is heresy, think that he is of the devil, etc.

    I highly recommend him.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  45. Ed,

    All I can find the words to say are: come out from among Perry Stone and no longer buy his food. Julie Anne should do a post about his teaching. Only the TRUTH gives LIFE. Mysticism is very dangerous. I would definetly include his teaching in the list above.

    Like

  46. Pondering,

    I totally disagree…100 percent.  It isn’t mysticism.  He is well respected within the majority of Christendom.  He is as well known as people such as Billy Graham, and a whole slew of other people.

    I am totally surprised that you have never heard of him before.  I am seriously wondering how involved people really do get in learning the Bible.  It doesn’t sound like people are really that interested. 

    In any case, he is well known, and well respected.  Those who have never heard of him probably never watches TV very much.  He is on numerous channels, including all of the available Christian TV Channels.

    It seems like some only want to see the carnal, and falsely accuse the spiritual as mysticism. 

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  47. “He’s just giving insight to the deeper things of God”……

    This is what all who follow mysticim say….”giving insight” to those who cannot “see” because they are “interpreters” “spiritual” “enlightened” “annointed” “reformers”. What are “deeper things of God”? How “deep” does one go?

    God has given men and women the gift to teach His word but this is not such a man.

    This post is about suicide, let us point others to the only Truth which can give LIFE.

    Like

  48. Ed,

    So is John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Cj Mahaney, Al Mohler, Tullian……

    It matters not who follows these men. Do they teach and preach the Truth, this is what we must ask ourselves!

    Like

  49. “it seems like some only want to see the carnal”

    I do not only want to see the “carnal”. I just need no spiritual interpreter of what i see! Praise God or I may not be alive.

    Like

  50. The people that you mentioned here are Calvinists.  They are in a league of their own.

    If you read up, people were stating that suicide was the sin of murder.

    In my experience in this blog, I bring in scripture to refute those claims.

    And that is where the spiritual came into play.

    Back in the book of 2 Samuel, the prophet Samuel died.  He went to Abraham’s Bosom.

    King Saul consulted a witch to conjure up the spirit of Samuel.  She did just that.

    Some people believe that the witch conjured up a demon.  But that is not so.  Why do I say that?  Because in the conversation that the spirit of Samuel had with King Saul, the scripture constantly states “And Samuel said…”, “And Samuel said…”

    It does not state “And the demon said…”. 

    Well, in that conversation, the spirit of Samuel told King Saul that the next day that Saul would be with him.

    The next day, King Saul fell on his sword.  That means that he committed suicide.  He wasn’t killed in battle.  Samuel, a prophet, prophesied that Saul would be with Samuel.

    Hence, suicide is not murder.

    Now, let me ask you this, who thinks that spiritual is mysticism.

    What is the promised land, as promised to Abraham?

    Ed

    Both Saul and Samuel are with Christ at this time.

    ________________________________

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  51. Pondering, “I just need no spiritual interpreter of what i see!”

    Well, I look at what cannot be seen.  What can be seen is carnal.  What cannot be seen is eternal.  And that is what Paul said.

    If you can see it, it dies. 

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  52. Who profits on selling cups and wafers? Calling this ‘kit’, “The meal that heal”. Is this why we are to partake in the Lord’s supper? No. We do this in remembrance of our Lord. And, who grows trees and profits off of them by calling them HOLY?

    (i recognize the packaging on the wafers!)

    There is absolutley nothing man will not do in order to make a profit.

    His website is like shopping at the mall.

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  53. Pondering,

    I was once told by a missionary that when Jesus said to “GO YE, and preach the gospel, that “GO YE” costs money.

    I do not judge a teacher who sells wafers, or books, or DVD’s. I judge the teacher by what he teaches.

    Again, what is the promised land as promised to Abraham?

    Ed

    Like

  54. If you don’t wish to debate, that’s fine. But I see that you judge a person by what he sells, not what he teaches. But, if you wish to stop the debate, I will stop.

    Ed

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  55. “But some advocate that suicide is murder. Where did people come to that conclusion from? The Bible? Really?
    Murder REQUIRES hate and malice.
    That is the same reason that I abhor anyone telling unbelieving woman at an abortion clinic that abortion is murder. It lacks hate and malice.
    Suicide is not murder.”

    Merriam Webster:
    kill: to deprive of life: cause the death of
    murder: the crime of deliberately killing a person

    EX: 20:13 “Thou shalt not kill.”
    ECCL 9:4 “For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.”
    MATT 1: 20-21 “..for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus…”
    LUKE 1:44 “For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb with joy.”
    JOHN 8:44 “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning …”

    Yeah, I kind of got the impression from the Bible that suicide and abortion are murder or killing and since Jesus tells us that murder is a lust of the devil and God commands us not to kill, it would seem wise to steer clear of it.

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  56. A Christian Father/Husband

    The HEBREW word used for out ENGLISH word is defined as MURDER, not kill.

    Unfortunately, our English word used for that Hebrew word was “kill”.

    Therefore, when the command is actually “Thou Shalt Not Murder”.

    And murder requires hate and malice.

    Ed

    Like

  57. Ecclesiastes 3:3
    A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

    Ecclesiastes 3:1-8
    To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

    2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

    3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

    4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

    5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

    6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

    7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

    8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

    Like

  58. Murder REQUIRES hate and malice.

    I have been thinking a lot about this statement and looked up the definition in different dictionaries. Hate and malice may be in the heart of the murderer, but not necessarily required. Murder can happen out of fear, usually fear would be due to hiding one’s sin.

    David killed many in battle and it was not a sin. He had Uriah murdered. That was definitely killed. I don’t believe that David hated Uriah, but he did want his sin covered up. What he forgot was that God knows everything.

    Liked by 1 person

  59. Brenda,

    I like your answer, because that was gonna be my next question, actually, which is:

    Did David Kill Goliath, or did David Murder Goliath?

    I always ask that to people who say that the Ten Commandments state, “Thou Shalt Not Kill”.

    And yet, there is a time to kill.  And a time for war, which by the way, people are killed, not murdered.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  60. Ed,
    From my perspective that was a war/battle situation that saved many lives. David’s side won, of course. I can understand not wanting to take a life for any reason, but I know that if it were to protect my family, especially when the kids were small, an intruder would have known that this mama bear wasn’t playing.

    Like

  61. Interestingly enough, Ed, there is a whole category of murder which does not result from hatred and malice, but rather a monstrous self absorption. In a narcissistic killing, someone kills ‘loved ones’ to prevent them from finding out that he is not the person he pretended to be. One example is the man who killed his wife because she was about to find out that he did not finish his bachelor’s degree and was not headed to medical school as he had led her to believe.

    Liked by 1 person

  62. Let’s look at this from the point of King Saul/Samuel in 1 Samuel 25:1, 1 Samuel 28:1 to 1 Samuel 31:13

    According to 1 Samuel 31:4, Saul took a sword and fell upon it.

    The passage does not say in plain English whether he killed himself, or murdered himself. But, I think that we get the idea that “falling on your sword” is equated to killing yourself. But the question remains, at this point, is killing yourself equated to murdering yourself?

    The ONLY way that we can determine this is by the words of Samuel to King Saul

    1 Samuel 28:16,19
    16 Then said Samuel,
    19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

    Question:
    What is the LOCATION that Samuel was discussing when he said that Saul and his sons would “be with me”? **********Why is this question important?
    ————————————-

    Now……………

    Malice:
    1. desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering on another, either because of a hostile impulse or out of deep-seated meanness:

    2. Law. evil intent on the part of a person who commits a wrongful act injurious to others.

    Exodus 20:13 (King James Version)
    Thou Shalt Not Kill

    Kill
    Strong’s Concordance Hebrew Reference 7523
    Properly to Dash into Pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder.

    English words used: “put to death”, kill, manslayer, slay, murder, murderer.

    Interesting note for you Greek lovers:

    The words of Jesus:

    Matthew 19:17-19 (KJV)
    17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

    18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

    19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    Verse 18, murder.

    Murder
    Strong’s Concordance Greek Ref #5407
    From 5406 (a murderer (always of criminal [or at least intentional] homocide) to be a murderer.

    English words used: kill, “do murder”, slay

    Ed

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  63. Now, the word hate:

    From http://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/hate/index.html

    “The etymology of the english term hate is initially traced back to the greek term kedos. The –os is a greek linguistic device that is added to many of the root words in that language. The root of kedos is thus ked. From ked came khed, hed, het and the english hate. In greek, the term kedos is defined thusly: to break, to destroy. The english definition and conception of hate is derived directly from that conception.”

    But…but…but…

    That word “kedos” is NOT the Greek word used in the Bible.

    From the New Test Greek

    All, all (all) Greek words for the English word Hate is Strong’s Concordance, Greek Ref # 3404 – miseo

    3404 Miseo
    From misos (hatred); to detest (especially to persecute); by extension to love less

    English words used:
    Hate, hateful.

    Ed

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  64. Well your responses certainly didn’t lack words!
    Judging from your posts, you claim to be a Christian who states that abortion or suicide is not a sin. Based on the Bible, having life means one has “hope”. Based on the Bible, a child in the womb can feel joy — safe to assume a child in the womb could feel “misery”.
    I find it indefensible that a Christian could say that Jesus wants us to eliminate hope for a suicidal person or inflict misery on and eliminate hope for a defenseless, unborn child.
    Can you cite scripture where Jesus encouraged someone’s death or suicide or where Jesus hurt or killed a child? Of course not, but you can certainly find many examples of the exact opposite which witnesses cited as miracles indicating Jesus’ deity. If bringing people back to life was evidence of Jesus’ heavenly power, isn’t encouraging/condoning/explaining away the taking of life through suicide or abortion evidence of Satan’s evil power and his lust for murder?

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  65. A Christian Father/Husband

    Killing is not a sin, first of all.  Murder is.  Murder is from the heart.  abortion is not murder.  Unbelievers have no clue that the fetus is a life.  Therefore, from their heart, it is not murder, nor is it to them killing.  A person is only responsible for what they know.  All of the finger pointing and judging is pointless.

    I gotta go to work, and its a full day, and visit friends tonight.  Wont be able to properly respond until tomorrow afternoon.

    I like to dissect things, which is why I was long winded.  Just reading doesn’t give the full picture.  Asking the “W” (why, where, when, etc.) questions and searching the answers helps come to a determination.

    ________________________________

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  66. ” Unbelievers have no clue that the fetus is a life. ” I really doubt that is true for most people now. They absolutely KNOW the baby/fetus is life, but they make the CHOICE to get rid of it. Only a very few/ignorant people these days would not know it is a baby, with all the videos, birth TV programs, ultra sounds , etc, etc, in the media and online.

    Liked by 1 person

  67. There is absolutely no one here who wants a clinically depressed person to commit suicide. However, Ed is saying that it is not murder (I agree) and I am saying that it is not sin because the person is trying to end intense suffering and not mentally competent at the time.

    Liked by 1 person

  68. Unbelievers have no clue that the fetus is a life. ” I really doubt that is true for most people now.

    Anita, I absolutely agree with you. Unbelievers are just as aware of the facts as believers are. Heartbeats can be heard in the first month now. In the OT days children were sacrificed to pagan gods, now they are sacrificed as a form of birth control, fear or the idol of selfishness. I know there are other reasons, as well.

    I do not think it helps anyone to stand outside abortion clinics and yell at people. In my area there is a ministry designed to help women keep their babies. Helping with coping skills and getting them set up with what baby will need for the first year to get them started. It doesn’t help that we have a government that considers abortion as “women’s healthcare”.

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  69. “I do not think it helps anyone to stand outside abortion clinics and yell at people. In my area there is a ministry designed to help women keep their babies. Helping with coping skills and getting them set up with what baby will need for the first year to get them started. It doesn’t help that we have a government that considers abortion as “women’s healthcare”.”

    Amen.

    Liked by 1 person

  70. Brenda R and Anita, “Unbelievers have no clue that the fetus is a life”.

    This thinking comes from the pit of hell, back to what I referenced above….right back to a determinist god who created only some people good and some people evil who are unable to know or do anything good. I pray that no one believes this lie.

    God created all men and women in His image. God is Good….men/women are good!! Many will not choose to believe in Him but this in no way means that man is not capable of knowing and doing good regardless if one chooses to believe in Jesus Christ or not: it is a choice!

    Too many people have been told lies for way too long! As a result, believe these lies and live them out because they believe there is nothing good in them.

    Yes, ladies let help these moms live and their children, let’s teach them about LOVE!

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  71. pondering,
    I don’t believe that god created some of us good and others evil. It is a choice to believe in Jesus Christ just as everything we do is, he gave us free will, but Jesus Love is what I hope shines through so that many will believe. God is love. He is the only one that can do it perfectly.

    Liked by 1 person

  72. 43 years ago, I took a lethal dose of 88 anti-depressants. I gave myself a possible out because I knew a friend was coming over and I planned to tell him what I did. He took me to a hospital and they pumped me out. It was close.

    I would ALMOST wish severe depression on those who mock suicides, so they can feel what it’s like. I say “almost” because I really wouldn’t wish it on anyone. It’s like a living death – not only are the slightest pleasures and joys denied you, in their place are anxiety, fear, and, of course, depression. It is constant pain. It’s hell. The last thought I had before taking the pills was “I will never feel differently.” Thank God I lived to find out that it wasn’t true. If any would-be suicide is reading this, I promise you that this is a lie from the pit of hell.

    I still live with depression, even after becoming a believer, but suicide is out of the question for me now. Besides the fact that I believe it’s wrong (though I don’t think one loses one’s salvation by doing it), I now have a Savior who is with me when I’m in pain. And He knew greater pain than I ever experienced.

    Liked by 1 person

  73. ::::::heavy sigh:::::

    Wow, Jeff, I was absolutely not expecting that comment. Thank you for getting real and personal and sharing your story. I struggle with bouts of depression and you described it well.

    Wow – I’m having to wipe the tears from my eyes as I think of the fact that we are very fortunate to be reading your comment. You are here with us. You are alive. You have very likely given someone hope through reading the experience of your deep pain. Thank you. Just thank you.

    Like

  74. JeffB,
    Thank you for your testimony. I believe we all have a cross to bear, it is how we handle it that matters. Being open and honest with what has happened to you may safe the life of another. Praise God that you met the Savior and perhaps will lead another to Him through what you have experience. I’m so glad you lived to tell your story.
    Brenda.

    Liked by 1 person

  75. Brenda,

    “Unbelievers are just as aware of the facts as believers are. Heartbeats can be heard in the first month now. In the OT days children were sacrificed to pagan gods, now they are sacrificed as a form of birth control, fear or the idol of selfishness. I know there are other reasons, as well.”

    Just poppin in.  It’s 9:00 PM

    I believe (My opinion only) that if you asked a woman in the abortion clinic if she knew that she was “killing” (as opposed to murdering) a life, that the women would say “ABSOLUTELY NOT” (or something to that affect).

    I read all sorts of blogs.  Heartbeat or not, to them, it’s nothing but a fetus.  They do not believe it is a life. 

    Even the Jehovah’s Witnesses think in that same mindset.  They, the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that it is a “POTENTIAL LIFE”.

    Why?  Because of the phrase “Breath of Life”.  They don’t think that you are a life until you take your first breath of “air”.

    It’s true…that they think that.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  76. Pondering,

    You said: ““Unbelievers have no clue that the fetus is a life”. My response:  I am the one who made that statement. You said: “This thinking comes from the pit of hell, back to what I referenced above….right back to a determinist god who created only some people good and some people evil who are unable to know or do anything good. I pray that no one believes this lie. God created all men and women in His image. God is Good….men/women are good!! Many will not choose to believe in Him but this in no way means that man is not capable of knowing and doing good regardless if one chooses to believe in Jesus Christ or not: it is a choice!” My response: First of all, I am not a Calvinist, therefore I do not believe in a determinist god. However, I stand by the original statement that unbelievers “generally”, to add a word, does not believe that a fetus is a life. You say that it comes from the pit of hell? So, I am going to inform you of Romans 7, Romans 3, And 1 John 3:4.

    1 John 3:4, sin is defined as “transgression of the law.” Romans 3 shows that the law is the knowledge of sin. Romans 7 shows that Paul did not know lust, had not the law said thou shalt not covet. Without the law, sin was DEAD.  When was sin dead? 

    Paul states that he was alive once, but then the law came, and he died (spiritual death, aka dead in sin and trespasses).  Before that, he was alive, which means sin was dead.  Dead means that sin is alive. Alive means that sin is dead.

    Now, read Deuteronomy 1:39 and notice the words GOOD AND EVIL.  Pay attention to the words GOOD AND EVIL AND KNOWLEDGE.

    KNOWLEDGE is the key word in everything.  Without knowledge, you are not held accountable.  SIN IS ONLY ALIVE WHEN KNOWLEDGE OF SIN, WHICH IS BY THE LAW, OCCURS.

    Pit of hell?

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  77. Because of the phrase “Breath of Life”. They don’t think that you are a life until you take your first breath of “air”.

    Ed,
    Sounds like splitting hairs to me and a lie they are telling themselves to make it easier to make a wrong decision. Life starts when God creates it. It is created when sperm meets egg. In most cases, a decision is made that could affect the rest of your life in having intercourse, at the time. It doesn’t have to get that far. Other choices could be made, like popcorn and a movie. There are other things to do. The choice was already made. God made us that way. Sex was made devinely for our pleasure in marriage and the creation of life. If you don’t want to create life, you should obstain from the pleasure. If Christians don’t help others to rewrite the mindset, who is going to. The Christian community didn’t fight hard enough to prevent legalized abortion, taking away our freedom to pray in school and we will continue to loose our freedoms if we don’t stand up and call sin what it is.

    I will never judge someone who chooses abortion, that is up to God. I will however do anything in my power to help a woman or girl make a decision for life. I don’t have a spare bedroom, but I could get a larger apartment. I know women who have aborted their babies and lived to regret that decision very quickly. Especially those in late term abortions. I could write a whole lot more on this topic, but I will stop there. It can get rather graphic and you will not be able to change my mind on this one.

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  78. GOOD AND EVIL AND KNOWLEDGE.

    Ed, People are aware of Good and Evil at some point in their lives and have knowledge of it whether being a Christian or not. They will still be judged on it by God whether they accept Jesus or not. The more evil, the greater punishment. God is not going to accept a “whoops, I should have known better after it is too late”. I would that everyone would accept Christ and follow His lead, but not everyone will. Adam and Even passed on the knowledge of good and evil when they took the first bite from the tree. Unless a person has a mental disorder, they will know the difference and choose which one they will make their Lord.

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  79. Julie Anne and Brenda R: Thank you very much for your comments about what I wrote. They mean a lot to me.

    Like

  80. Jeff…..Thank you so much for sharing a painful time in your life. I believe you’ve encouraged others with your words. Praise God you survived!

    Blessing to you, Jeff.

    Like

  81. JeffB,

    I prayed at 9 yrs old to God, to please let me die. Tried to end my life when I was 28 with a serious overdose.

    I had a nurse at my side, that night, who said to me: “God has not given you a spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind”… I had no idea what the heck she was talking about.

    Thank You for saying: ” I would ALMOST wish severe depression on those who mock suicides, so they can feel what it’s like. I say “almost” because I really wouldn’t wish it on anyone. It’s like a living death – not only are the slightest pleasures and joys denied you, in their place are anxiety, fear, and, of course, depression. It is constant pain. It’s hell. The last thought I had before taking the pills was “I will never feel differently.”

    God Bless & keep you Jeff. Amen.

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  82. Hugs to you, Gail. So glad you are here, too. You have brought a lot of joy to people by your encouragement here. We are the privileged ones. Life is so precious, folks. Wow.

    Like

  83. Ed,

    “pit of hell”

    Yes Ed, this is from the pit of hell. To say “unbelievers have no clue that a fetus…”, is a lie declaring mans depravity which is what the mystics teach. While you may not understand, this is exactly what you are stating.

    We are not discussing ‘sin’ and ‘law’ in this statement, but unbelievers having “no clue” and it doesn’t help by changing what you original wrote by adding to the sentence “generally” and regardless you still “stand by the original statement” that you made. This only muddles even more because you have now agreed some can understand. So which is it? Who determines this knowledge?

    Do you understand even many individuals who declare they are Christians ‘have no clue’ about what ‘life’ is as well?

    What can unbelievers have a clue about?

    The unsaved are free in regard to righteousness, this is what is written in God’s word. The unsaved can make good choices and bad choices they can even think, understand, reason, learn, become doctors…….praises God! It was an unbeliever who saved my LIFE!

    Like

  84. Gail, I, too, am glad you survived. And to pray for death at 9 – I can only imagine what that must have been like.

    pondering – Thank you very much.

    Like

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