Divorce: Do children bear the sins of their parents’ divorce? Is it better to remain married even with abuse? What is the church teaching us about divorce and abuse by their silence on the subject?
Russell Moore is President of the Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission. “In this role, he leads the organization in all its efforts to connect the agenda of the kingdom of Christ to the cultures of local congregations for the sake of the mission of the gospel in the world.” He previously served at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary as Dean of the School of Theology, Senior Vice President for Academic Administration, and as Professor of Christian Theology and Ethics.
ERLC, like SBTS, believes in complementarian marriages and strong “biblical” manhood and womanhood roles. They are very strong on family and marriage, so it makes sense that Moore would host Lore Ferguson’s article at his site, Divorce and the good of the children.
The article is clearly geared to children of divorced parents, but as I read it, I thought about divorce because of abuse. What about the children of a victimized spouse who decides to divorce?
There are two issues that I had with the article:
- The first issue is Ferguson believes that children will shoulder their parents’ sin and carry that burden. I, as an adult whose parents divorced, have never even thought of such a thing, so I’d like to touch on that.
- The second issue is about abuse in marriage. If you read through this article trying to use the eyes of an abused wife, I don’t think she would be feeling she has an option to get divorced even though there is a small disclaimer posted below the post. The guilt and condemnation she would feel when reading this is troubling, especially when abused wives may already be in a weak emotional state. Abused moms would likely “put their children first” after reading this article and I am concerned that some may not feel the freedom to make the right step and LEAVE a dangerous situation (even with children).
Divorce is messy. It is ugly. It is painful. It is painful for both parents and children alike. Ferguson’s article looks at divorce from the children’s perspective. It is a harsh reality of divorce Ms. Ferguson portrays it well here:
Family traditions—seared.
Holidays together—severed.
Family portraits—always lacking.
Weddings—one parent always missing.
Yes, those are the very difficult aspects of divorce.
But what we often see from the Christian leaders about marriage/divorce is the generalizations about divorce. I don’t like divorce. I think it harms families. But in some cases of abuse, I believe it is Biblical to get divorced, and even necessary.
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The problem that I see is that the Church often idolizes the institution of marriage so much that it fails to mention those cases where it may be better for a couple to divorce than remain in an abusive marriage.
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Do I believe that there are too many divorces? Yes
Do I believe that people divorce for trivial reasons? Yes
Do I believe that some people do not hold the covenant of marriage as something sacred? Yes
Do I believe a husband and wife should remain together when there is abuse? Each case is different, but sometimes the answer should clearly be NO.
One of the problems I’ve been noting – especially since reading about domestic violence at my friend, Jeff Crippen’s blog, A Cry for Justice, is that churches/pastors don’t want to touch the divorce word. They hardly want to acknowledge its existence.
If you are divorced, you are likely marginalized just as singles are often marginalized. They don’t want to let you know that it’s okay to divorce for adultery. Some lead you to believe that the Bible allows NO GROUNDS whatsoever for divorce: Voddie Baucham and John Piper are in this camp. I’m not sure how they justify removing scripture from the Bible to say this and can rightfully call themselves Shepherds.
Many don’t believe that divorce is okay for abuse, they’d just rather not bring up the subject at all and keep people guessing. Many who do believe that divorce is okay for abuse situations, still fail to bring it up because of the stigma attached with that D word. They certainly don’t want another family affected by that D word in their church under their watch.
Divorce is a dirty word and I’ve read many stories of pastors who would rather keep a spouse married in abuse telling the victim to submit, to pray, to suffer for righteousness sake, than have one in their congregation go through a difficult divorce.
Now, I do think it is appropriate to prevent divorce if at all possible and to do everything within one’s power to help make the marriage work, but when it comes to abuse within a marriage, we’re talking something entirely different.
This part got of the article got my dander up:
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I have met few who would say their parents’ divorce was for the best—their mother was being abused or their father was a serial philanderer. Almost every person I have asked would say it wasn’t in the best interest of the child, and they know because they are that child.
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Ok, I can understand an adult child saying their parents could have tried harder if the divorce was for “irreconcilable differences.” But in abuse? Would a child really say that it wasn’t in the best interest of the child to divorce even in abuse?
So, I would like to ask you, my astute readers- – if you were the child whose parents were in an abusive marriage, would you want your parents to remain married – – – while abusing?
My parents divorced and I did not know the full reasons until just last year. But I do know this. The following was not true for me:
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Please think of that, parent, if you cannot see any way out of this difficulty but through divorce. Think of your child bearing the full weight of your spouse’s sin on their own shoulders—without you, by himself, by herself—because they will. For the rest of their lives they will bear the weight of what you decided you could not—and they cannot divorce themselves from it, hard as they try.
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I did not carry the weight of my parents’ sin on my shoulders. Yes, there were inconveniences with divorce. We had to figure out how to do the holidays, but thankfully, my parents actually were able to join together at holiday events, even after they each remarried, and so we did have enjoyable times as a family. But none of us carried the weight of our parents’ sins on our shoulders. That was their issue. What about you? I’d like to hear from some of you and your experiences.
Here’s more from the article:
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For the good of the children, do not get divorced if you can help it. For the good of the children, bear on your body the mark of covenant, the suffering of your own flesh for your own flesh, the sacrificial example of a parent who stays. Bear the name you took or gave, bear it well. For the good of the children who will someday be mothers and fathers considering the weight of their own marriages.
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For parents who are getting divorced for trivial reasons, yes, I agree with the above. But what message does this send to an abused wife? It says stick it out. Make the sacrifice, bear your burdens, etc. It is says that staying is better than leaving, even if she has to suffer. That is NOT right.
Here’s the small disclaimer at the bottom of the post:
This is very confusing. In the middle of the article she claims that even in abuse, that divorce was not in the best interest of the child, yet she includes this disclaimer. Which one is it?
This is far too confusing for an abuse victim to make sense of. I can’t even make sense of it. No wonder so many victims remain in their abusive homes. They want to be obedient to what is being taught at church. They want to make the right choices for their children.
I’m waiting for some bold pastors to step up to the plate and strongly deal with abusers and actively help mothers and children who are affected by abuse. There is one pastor who says this, preaches this, and shouts it from the rooftop. Pastor Jeff Crippen has sharp words to abusers and is a fierce defender of those who are abused. Boy, doesn’t that sound like Jesus – someone who defends the defenseless and hates abuse?
I sent a link of the article to Jeff this morning and shared my concerns and here was his response (that he gave me permission to share). I hope this will give abuse victims hope and encouragement if they are facing a very difficult and abusive marriage:
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Exodus is good. It is a blessing from God. God is the God of the exodus. Not only from Egypt, but from all evil. Jesus came to effect a new exodus of the new and true Israel, His church, from this world. In this sense, Jesus Christ is the Lord of divorce. He blesses it when it is an exodus from evil and bondage. It is not some mere “sin” he forgives us of. It is the same glorious event that He effected when Moses went to Pharaoh and said “Let My people go.” ~Pastor Jeff Crippen, A Cry for Justice
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Oh my gosh. This woman is clueless. My fiance was emotionally abused by his ex-wife for many many years. He stayed in the marriage because he didn’t want his son to experience the effects of a divorce. Fortunately she left him. Its been about 6 years since the divorce and the son came to me and told me he was glad it happened. He’s finally seeing who his real dad is, a man free from constant emotional abuse and free to actually love being alive. It has taken a lot of counseling for my fiance to finally get to a healthy place. I wonder if Ferguson realizes that men can be just as negatively impacted by abuse and divorce.
Mod Ed: Modified the comment to reflect the author is a female: Lori Ferguson (it was posted on Moore’s website).
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I’m not trying to change the topic, but I notice patterns in things, which is why I mention this, but as to this part,
A lot of churches are this way on other issues, too.
Many Christians would rather people stay in pain or dangerous situations than to get help or a resolution to their situation.
For example, mental health problems. Christians who have depression or anxiety are are made to feel by a lot of Christians that seeking secular (or even Christian) help, taking anti-depressants, etc, is a sin. So they are told by the Christians in their church or their pastor to pray more, have more faith, and read the Bible more.
With the adult singles topic, and depending on which ever church we are talking about, singles who want marriage are discouraged from taking steps to make marriage happen (e.g., use of dating sites, churches reluctant to put on adult single social mixers, etc). Singles are told to “pray more,” “serve God more,” “trust in the Lord’s timing” and “be content where you are,” and other spiritual answers.
It’s so common in Christianity to tell people to sit still and do nothing practical to get help. They are advised to only pray, attend church, and read the Bible – none of which is bad stuff, but in most cases, it won’t resolve whatever the issue is.
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(Part 2)
Christians seem to apply this stuff very selectively, too, which is another thing I find so frustrating and hypocritical:
I’ve yet to hear Christians who are anti – divorce, anti- use -dating sites, anti -psychiatry, advise Christians not to use toothpaste to fight cavities, not to use a mechanic when their car breaks, not to use contact lenses or wear glasses if they are near sighted.
The last time you remarked that your grass was getting long, did your preacher say, 1. “Get your lawn mower out and cut it,” or did he say,
2. “Pray about it, read the Bible more, and be content with the long grass.”
He probably said 1. Yet notice for divorce, singles who want marriage, and depression, they give advice set #2.
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I agree with the rest of Julie Anne’s assessment of the article.
The disclaimer (that mentions “the safety of every child…”) even kind of bothers me, as it only mentions how abuse affects the children.
What if the husband is abusing the wife (or as Mandy pointed out, you have a wife abusing a husband)? Why doesn’t the disclaimer also mention “the safety of every spouse.”
Where JA quotes the article,
That sounds awfully close to me as though the writer is alluding to a spouse accepting physical or emotional abuse and at that for religious reasons.
I don’t like how some Christians try to make spousal abuse sound noble or that it should be done for the “cause of Christ.” It’s easy for them to say that if they’re not the ones living under the abuse.
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Sorry to go a little off topic, but I just wanted to let people know I left a Prayer Request on the Prayer Request page.
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About the author-
“I’m a graphic artist for a non-profit that rescues and rehabilitates girls who have been sexually trafficked and puts water wells Indian villages. I am a part of The Village Church at the Flower Mound campus. – See more at: http://sayable.net/about/#sthash.wcPhJTOA.dpuf”
Matt Chandler’s church. Is that where she is getting this teaching about divorce? The whole post read to me like an emotional landfill. I know a lot of happy children of divorced parents. They are happy because they have a SAFE home now- not just physically safe, but emotionally safe…where before, fear reigned.
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Ridiculous what this article says. Maybe some people leave to help their children…oh I don’t know…not have to live in the HELL that is abuse?? If this author could take one look into my children’s lives under their father’s roof, he would hold his tongue before passing judgement on me and women like me. It’s not a matter of suffering for them. They suffer enormously when the abuse is allowed to continue. They heal only when they get away from it. Staying causes the torture to continue for them. Even in my case, where I can only get them out 50% of the time, at least that is half their lives they don’t have to spend in abuse. At least they can see there is a parent that doesn’t act that way or condone acting that way. They have a fighting chance.
Oh I am fuming!! It’s a slap in the face to those of us who work so hard to protect our children.
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The author is female and not married, nor has been married-from what I have been able to gather from her sayable blog. She is being brainwashed via The Village.
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“At least they can see there is a parent that doesn’t act that way or condone acting that way.”
That’s right, Fuming. You are modeling for your children a positive thing: Love does not equal abuse. They will learn that from you and learn the true meaning of love.
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I think I read in a tweet a while back that she is engaged.
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I submitted a comment this morning, but as of now, I see none. Maybe all the ones who went into moderation were negative?
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Virginia – Are you saying they deleted it? If it’s in moderation, it should stay that it’s still in moderation. If it’s still in moderation, I’d love a screenshot just in case they don’t post it.
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Well, that explains WHY she is so quick and glib with the advice.
Goes clear back to the Book of Job. Ever notice it’s the ones who’ve never been through it themselves who are real quick to cop a Expert(TM) attitude and “counsel” those who HAVE?
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I’m saying it just never showed up. It said it was going into moderation, but I haven’t seen hide nor hair of it.
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Very odd.
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Frankly my friends who were raised in abusive homes tell me that it is far better to be out than in. If you really want children not to “bear the full brunt of their parent’s sin” – as the author put it – then get them away from the perpetrator of violence!
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I just left another comment asking where all the comments were. Maybe the moderator is off duty?
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@JA~
“I think I read in a tweet a while back that she is engaged.”
From her sayables blog-
“A Month from My Wedding Day
April 16, 2014
A month ago today was to be my wedding day. I was never the girl pouring over scrapbooks of wedding ideals or scrawling my crush’s names in margins on notebooks, I am far too pragmatic for such things. I wore a ring and I planned a wedding. But today I am not wearing a ring and passed through March 16 with one long sigh and then sleep. I suppose sometime the shame will lift, the feeling of failure will abate, the questions I ask of God and myself will be quelled. But for today they hang heavy, shrouding all of me. I am strangely okay with the hiddenness of today—though I long for the joy that comes in the morning. He must increase, I must decrease.”
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Oh, that’s too bad. Thanks for the update, Diane.
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“Do I believe a husband and wife should remain together when there is abuse? Each case is different, but sometimes the answer should clearly be NO.”
That “sometimes” is the main problem, as I see it. The word “abuse” is an umbrella word, that lumps together a vast variety of different sins against one’s spouse, from the really trivial through to criminal assault. As you said, Julie Anne, “each case is different”.
But if each case is different, it follows that there cannot be any simple teaching that is universally applicable. Ecclesiastes 3 talks in general terms about there being a time for this or that, and a time for the complete opposite. That really is all that can be said from the pulpit, without discussing real-life individual cases of marital disharmony, which I think you would would agree with me would rarely be appropriate.
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It’s common for arrogant self-righteous Christian leaders to threaten us with the lie that the children of divorce to turn out poorly. They want to shame people.
The problem is that data shows that kids don’t turn out poorly. They come out of the divorce within a year or two just as emotionally healthy as they did before the divorce.
Rutgers University did a study and discovered (to the shock of the researchers), that children make it through divorce just fine…
Do a web search for a PowerPoint called OCT_31_MARITALSTATUS.PPT. It’s a free download at Rutgers. The first 23 slides are about the impact of divorce on the parents (yes, it is tough on us), but the last 5 slides tell the truth. When they compared adult children from divorced homes with children from married homes, they discovered there was NO DIFFERENCE at all.
Let’s stop spreading the lie that divorce will destroy your kids. It won’t. (It will make your life miserable for a while, but data says it doesn’t damaged your kids for life.)
Mod note: Here is the link to the PowerPoint. When I clicked on it, it immediately went to my download folder.
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My husband and I attended a church in South Bend, Indiana when we were first married (30 years ago). We were quite naive and picked a random church to attend. At first I noticed women didn’t speak up in Sunday School. My responses were generally ignored, then later restated by a man at my table who would get the credit for my original thoughts! The final straw was when the pastor preached a horrible sermon, where he praised an older church member for staying married to a husband that abused her. He said she was obeying God by not leaving him so the children not have to come from a broken home. (Wasn’t it already broken?). I never asked him, but my first thought was, ” Would this pastor allow his daughter to marry a son from this “Christian” family?” I think not. Who wants their daughter married to a man who watched his mother beaten for 18 years while the church stayed silent. I don’t remember the name or denomination of the church-but we bolted. Also my husband had been asked to play a piano piece before a service. He chose ” Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring”. When the pastor got to the pulpit, he apologized for my husband playing “secular” music!?? Does anyone have any idea what denomination would act like that? Thanks
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Another thing to consider is that maybe it’s not the divorce itself which leaves kids from “broken homes” damaged — but serious problems (addictions, porn, adultery, financial irresponsibility, abuse, etc.) which both broke the marriage AND hurt the kids. In which case, they would have suffered either way from the initial problem. The question is, what is the solution? If the problems can be reliably fixed by the guilty parties taking responsibility, do it, of course. But if not, why blame “divorce” on what is a much bigger problem?
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I used to be able to relate to much of what this author says in this article as I too am a child of divorce, and that from a young age. I became a Christian several years later, but still as a youth. Not too many years after that I learned what the “Christian” view of divorce is — it’s bad. No exceptions.
Yeah. I could relate to that. Heck, that was my life, right?
Well…no.
I’m going to give the abbreviated version here of what happened, but I am going to say up front that it was God, who is the God of truth, who has brought my understanding of my own parents’ divorce to where it is. And I have to say that not just because it is so, but because I got here kicking and screaming.
The abbreviated version is Parent A filed for divorce against Parent B. From my earliest years, Parent B was the one I bonded to emotionally and am the most like in my personality, and also the one I just plain liked best. Parent B was also the non-custodial parent. Therefore, since it was Parent A who filed and the “Christian” view of divorce is that it is bad and therefore the person who files is ipso facto the bad person — though it is apparently customary to frame things in such a way as to make both parties responsible — it was easy for me to place blame on the more expendable Parent A.
This was my, frankly, very childish view. However, as God would have it, “when I became a man, I put away childish things”…whether I wanted to or not. Part of this involved being married and understanding life from the perspective of a married adult. I have a very good marriage, which point I won’t belabor except to say I have a good experiential understanding of what marriage should be. Against this is the backdrop of my child of divorce status, which to my childish eyes looked a good deal like the article author presents. I don’t dispute the perspective — unless the perspective is retained perpetually.
The adult version of my parents’ divorce is this. What actually happened with my parents was Parent B was not an awesome spouse: nothing overt, just absent both physically and emotionally. Parent A wanted a better relationship and did everything in his/her power to bring that about. Parent B was not interested. Parent B was so disinterested in the marriage that he/she could not be bothered to file for divorce any more than he/she could be bothered to improve the relationship. Parent A was a person of action. Parent B was a person of passivity — and deflection.
Because of the combination of the “Christian” view of divorce with Parent B’s initial preferred status, as well as his/her enduring second marriage, plus Parent A’s flaws readily available for scrutiny because Parent A was the custodial parent…it was easy peasy to give Parent B a pass. And I did. For a long time.
But eventually I grew up. I looked at Parent B’s behavior and attitude objectively, asking myself now that I am an adult and have some life experience what I would think of a mother/father who would treat his/her child like that — and Parent B’s stock fell through the floor. I could no longer look at Parent B through the eyes of an enamored child.
The adult conclusions I had to draw about Parent B were that no one forced him/her to abdicate his/her parental responsibility. Not Parent A. Certainly not me. Not Spouse 2, though that is where blame was deflected by both Parent B and myself for many years (there are reasons for this pertaining to Spouse 2 which do not matter in the end). And not the divorce.
The blame lay squarely on the shoulders of Parent B.
My issue was not with my parents’ divorce. It was with Parent B. And let me tell you how much it hurt to have that log extracted from my eye. It is so easy to say how much being a child of divorce hurt me. What is NOT easy to say is how much I wish Parent B had chosen to be the parent (I still maintain) he/she could have been, had he/she wanted to. That Parent B did not want to fulfill his/her role as my parent is the greatest grief I have ever had to deal with, and that doesn’t go away. But it is not the divorce that put it there. It was Parent B’s choice that put it there.
I could have just about written that article…as a child. I could not write it now as an adult.
I have experienced many of the issues the author cites. However, the reason I struggle with identity issues and the myriad of other issues the author cites is NOT because my parents divorced, nor because Parent A filed against Parent B. It is strictly because Parent B chose of his/her own volition NOT to be the parent he/she could have been and should have been irrespective of divorce as a context, and then deflected responsibility elsewhere. Just as the Christian community thrusts the blame onto divorce, the status of divorce, the divorced, and most certain the one who files.
It is so easy to blame divorce for hurting children. And in so doing it is so easy to spread the blame for the divorce to both parties, or even just the one who filed irrespective of whether that is appropriate. I used to think it was, when I thought as a child. Now, having put away childish things, in the case of my parents’ divorce, I can no longer do so.
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Ann,
I had to smile. I used Jesu as my wedding processional, and my mother thought it was not Christian music. She was a bit more comfortable with the Recessional, Ode de Joy, but that was featured in the Assemblies of God hymnal. Jesu was not. 😉
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And there’s this issue. Abusive relationships habituate a person into a very unrealistic perspective over time. I really like how Patrick Carnes explains this in “The Betrayal Bond,” as it is often overlooked. Here’s just a smattering. It is most definitely not a pattern of love, power, and a sound mind. And the inconsistencies of the message of love and goodness that are mingled with abuse are crazy-making and are the seeds of compulsive behavior. It also contributes to problems with self-care, especially in children who are exposed to Jekyll and Hyde type parents who swing between extremes of good and bad (Pia Melody has material on that aspect, on top of the learned helplessness behavioral studies).
Carnes on pages 125-127; West & Sheldon in Classification of Pathological Attachment Patterns in Adults; Sable in Disorders of Adult Attachment).
Relationship Patterns of Victims in Response to Those who Exploit Power
> Compulsive Helplessness
> Compulsive Focus on the Abuser (Involves caretaking and enmeshment)
> Compulsive Self-Reliance
> Compulsive Caregiving
> Compulsive Care-Seeking
> Compulsive Rejection
> Compulsive Compliance
> Compulsive Identification with Others
> Compulsive Reality Distortion (Denial of abuse and wishful thinking)
> Compulsive Abuse Seeking (In other relationship or through self-destructive behavior)
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I would read it as, “In case of abuse of the child, it is good to divorce.”
I read the post and commented. Comments are completely moderated, so I can’t be sure that I will ever have it seen. I came from a church that preached Ephesians 5 and 1Peter 3 interpreted as, “Abused? Submit more, quit making him have to punish you so much, and whatever you do, endure, because you are saving and sanctifying your family with your sacrifice. You, sister, are purchasing your husband’s salvation every time you smile and ask him what else you can do for him after he hurts you. Is not Christ’s tortured death worth your witness of obedience and submission?”
Again and again they told me only if he was cheating on me could I be free (except one pastor who said that American law was a sad thing because men are allowed multiple wives by Scripture, and a man should be allowed to have sex with unclaimed women, but had to be denied because he couldn’t marry them – he sounded like men cheating was a gray area, and only women had the requirement of fidelity).
Years later, when I had proof of multiple, debased adventures in adultery, I was told that it was a sad thing, and I should reconsider, but Biblically I was free.
I found it strange that broken bones are permissible, but sex with another was considered a broken promise.
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ARGH! The ignorance in this article makes me furious. In my opinion it is willful ignorance. I should make this gal go and volunteer in a spouse abuse center for a few years. Let her see the real ugly damaged side to this “stay together at all costs” mentality.
One of the biggest problems were the pastors who would come and “counsel” the wife who fled in terror with her kids that “he (the abuser) was sorry and it would never happen again” (time after time) And the right thing to do is go back and reconcile for the kids sake.
Gee, why not send her before a firing squad. It is less torturous and she won’t have to live on eggshells for the next one.
And is it any wonder little boys and girls learn how to grow up and be abusers/manipulators? After all, there is easy forgiveness available each time. Until she is so damaged emotionally and/or physically that her kids end up losing all respect for her when they are adults. And that happens.
What happens to a kid that grows up around emotional/physical/verbal abuse all their lives? It can become their normal. And they have a very warped view of “love”.
In reality, living with this enables evil. Having no self respect does not change the abuser. It makes it worse. Easy prey. Abusers rarely go to work and knock their boss around. They go for easy pickins. (That is why I thought John Piper should have to go to work “for a season” and be knocked around by his “authority” to maybe get a clue)
This poor gal is in the Matt Chandler cult of personality. That really explains a lot of her view. But she had best be careful. She might marry an abuser and be held to her words. Because abusers tend to prey on a person’s virtues.
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Anonymous2- thanks much for that helpful info. Abuse victims already go through so much guilt and shame. They don’t need more of it when they are trying to get themselves and their kids into a healthy environment.
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“You, sister, are purchasing your husband’s salvation every time you smile and ask him what else you can do for him after he hurts you. Is not Christ’s tortured death worth your witness of obedience and submission?””
Didn’t they trot out 1 Peter, too? Where he is talking about living with an unbelieving spouse in the 1st Century where women were chattel that applies to you, too? (sigh)
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“ARGH! The ignorance in this article makes me furious.”
Maybe this is where the author is getting it…
“In the case of unrepentant and continued abuse, the abused is encouraged to immediately separate and is also expected to inform The Village Church who will attempt to engage both the abuser and the abused with the gospel in hopes of repentance and reconciliation. If such does not occur, the elders may deem the abuser an unbelieving spouse according to the tenets of Matthew 18:17 and allow for divorce on the basis of the spiritual desertion caused by the abuse.
In all other issues of marital difficulty and division, the command of the Lord is clear, divorce is not to be pursued (1 Corinthians 7:10). If a member of The Village Church pursues divorce on any non-biblical ground, they will be engaged by the pastors and elders of the church and called to repentance and reconciliation.7
If one is currently considering divorce (or if his or her spouse is considering divorce) for any reason whatsoever or if one is currently divorced and is considering remarriage, he or she is expected to immediately inform The Village Church for biblical counsel regarding the process of reconciliation.”
http://www.thevillagechurch.net sermon/divorce-and-remarriage
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“This poor gal is in the Matt Chandler cult of personality. That really explains a lot of her view. But she had best be careful. She might marry an abuser and be held to her words. Because abusers tend to prey on a person’s virtues.”
And would not be allowed to divorce.
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Got into a discussion on a thread with a Preacher, about his attempt to guilt couples living together into marriage. I suggested if the couple don’t love each other they shouldn’t cover-up their lust by marrying one-another.
Divorce in Churches are occurring for a reason and in my view much of it is for the wrong reason which involves unrealistic expectations of couples that are intimate, but aren’t in love.
I went further to suggest he should be discouraging them from marrying if they don’t love each. Eventually couples will recognize they aren’t right for each other and break-up. In the same breath some may come to realize they do love each other and do the right thing.
Much of the abuse is occurring because of bad counseling.
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“In the case of unrepentant and continued abuse, the abused is encouraged to immediately separate and is also expected to inform The Village Church who will attempt to engage both the abuser and the abused with the gospel in hopes of repentance and reconciliation. If such does not occur, the elders may deem the abuser an unbelieving spouse according to the tenets of Matthew 18:17 and allow for divorce on the basis of the spiritual desertion caused by the abuse.”
And how would she know some of the elders are not abusers at home? Does she assume because of their biblical titles they are men of integrity and transparency? In mega churches this is even a bigger problem of people not really knowing their “leaders” at all. Boy oh boy do I know this one first hand. And abusers LOVE comp doctrine. They are attracted to it for cover. They can claim pretty much anything is being unsubmissive. (Anyone remember Bruce Ware of SBTS teaching at Denton Bible church that “unsubmissive wives trigger abuse”?
No, the answer is call the police when you are abused physically. It is dangerous and a crime. For mental and emotional abuse, you get far away. The abuser needs a target. That is what they do. The elders are the LAST people she should trust with her life and her children’s emotional well being.
This gals church is dangerous. When will people wake up? Of course Matt Chandler called someone (from the pulpit!) who sent him a letter disagreeing with him a “narcissistic zero”. I have zero respect for him for many reasons. One is his partnership with Driscoll in Acts 29. He covered over a lot of evil in that one. He is one of the celebs whose goal is to garner followers. I call them the nicolaitans.
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I was wondering how they were going to counsel/ “engage both the abuser and the abused with the gospel in hopes of repentance and reconciliation” when the abuser would be sitting in jail for his/her CRIME against the other. I am left wondering if that is not an option at The Village Church? To report domestic abuse to the authorities?
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“You might be in here saying, “I’m doing all of that right now, and it’s still awful.” Okay. A day at a time. A step at a time. That’s all God has asked of you. Don’t lose heart. Don’t give up. Let him work. Don’t try to be the Holy Spirit to your spouse; you’re crummy at it. You look at your own heart. You take care of your own heart. You press into the Lord for you and let God do the work on your spouse. Adultery, abuse, and all sorts of awful things God can reconcile. You have to trust him.
Now just so you don’t take what I just said and run someplace you shouldn’t, if you’re being abused, I don’t think you should stay in that house, don’t think you should stay with that man. You have full-on church permission, if you’re being abused, to get out of there and contact us. But if you’re doing all you know and it still feels like a wash, still feels like it’s not moving, I think you have to be patient, day in and day out, press into God on high, and trust that he’ll do the work that you cannot.”
Church permission??? And contact them…but no police? I don’t think telling an abused spouse that “pressing into God on high” is helpful. I don’t even know what that means. I know they are charismatic at The Village…maybe it has a charismatic meaning, I don’t know. Not helpful, though.
“So the offer is on the table for the reconciling work of Jesus Christ to work in your heart in such a way that genuine transformation in you and reconciliation with others can occur. You just have to believe him for it. So there will be men and women ready to pray with you, ready to pray over you, ready to pray for you and to direct you into next steps; although, I’ve tried to lay those out as briefly and as easily as I could. You have not been built by God to fight this one alone. Let’s pray.”
You just have to believe him for it. For how long? How long does an abused spouse stay? How long does a husband or wife stay and watch their children being hurt or abused because they are just trying, believing and pressing in? Ridiculous.
http://www.thevillagechurch.net/sermon/marriage-and-oaths/
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Who gets to determine if a broken marriage is unbiblical? The pastors? And how will they do that? Do they plan on having hidden cameras in homes or something? Whose word will they take? How can they prove it? In a volatile marriage situation, the bad guy is not going to tell the truth. Some church leaders defer solely to the man of the house because he is the head of the home. Sometimes the concerns of wives aren’t considered if the husband says she is unsubmissive. His word is valued over his by virtue of his “biblical role” as spiritual head.
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So, do you think pastors are equipped to be able to determine who is telling the truth and who is not and make these kinds of life-altering decisions for families? Basically at Chandler’s church, from what I saw, the church is notified/involved in the whole process and gets to decide whether someone is unbeliever, someone is in sin, who is responsible, etc.
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“For the good of the children, do not get divorced if you can help it. For the good of the children, bear on your body the mark of covenant, the suffering of your own flesh for your own flesh, the sacrificial example of a parent who stays. Bear the name you took or gave, bear it well. For the good of the children who will someday be mothers and fathers considering the weight of their own marriages.”
Abolish foster care – for the good of the children. Removing children from their parents forces them to bear their parents’ sins, to be “foster kids” for the rest of their lives. Turn a blind eye to the abuse that is taking place in the homes. You don’t want to break up a “family” or ruin Christmas by having them leave these people who share their DNA. Think of the poor children who would rather live with their parents in danger than with strangers who protect them. Yes, let’s abolish adoption too while we’re at it. For the good of the children. Let’s believe that children know best and that the pain they endure because their parents are safe now and sane now, wouldn’t be there at all and that all those family portraits and all those Christmases that are “in-tact” didn’t have memories of horrendous fights attached to them. Let’s assume that the stress of living with an abuser isn’t taking a toll on the children’s minds and bodies. Let’s do that. Think of the imaginary children who were ripped from a 2 parent Narnia and forced to live in Mordor.
I think that my friend S, who when she was 12 had mother died from suicide after enduring her father’s abuse, would rather have to bear that sins of her parents’ divorce than face life without her mother. She now works to make sure that victims know they have a way to escape the abuse, a way that is not death. I suppose that her career choice is a pretty good of what she would prefer, eh?
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Barnabasintraining: Thank you so much for sharing your experience. You have made some great discoveries about your parents and obviously had to challenge your prior thinking along the way. I appreciate that you have differentiated the painful part as not being connected to the divorce, but due to the lack of parenting as the real reason.
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And Village Church is a haven for abusers. Michael Snetzer (head of Steps) believes you can make safety an idol, like blinking, breathing, and having a heartbeat, those God given instincts that rank right up there with fight or flight. We have to be careful not to make safety an idol. Snetzer believes that abuse can be provoked. He has said so in his Steps audios, I believe it’s in the audio on Anger. Village will pressure victims to submit to Village, not the criminal court system. Village is a haven for abusers. I am not surprised to see this article come from there.
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Barnabasintraining,
Thank you for sharing. I read your experience & thought it was quite helpful. How you processed through it & then how you evaluated it afterwards was very profound on your part, IMO.
Sometimes, kids don’t have all the facts on the why of their parents’ divorce. And that may continue into adulthood. And even if the why is understood & requires divorce, the hurt from the why may be overwhelming. I sympathize.
I see hurt & resulting divorce like a bomb & the collateral damage a bomb does. If preachers want to bring down the divorce rate they wouldn’t preach against fallout/consequences/effect. They would preach against bombs like adultery/abuse/neglect. Take away the cause/mistreatment & you take away necessary divorces. Preachers should teach the marriage covenant is broken/damaged at time of mistreatment, not at time of divorce.
So I understand most adults would wish they didn’t come from a divorced home. Most adults would ask for one helping of good parent, let alone two helpings of good parent, right? Duh. But that does not mean a divorce wasn’t absolutely necessary. Duh.
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Children can be told, “You have not heard and seen everything that I have, so I know there are things you can’t understand about this situation. I’m sorry about that, but I am asking you to trust me that I am doing what I believe to be the best.” Does that fix everything? No, but it helps. As more things are naturally revealed to them through various circumstances, there are often “aha” moments where they realize what you were talking about.
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Ellie, that comment about Snetzer and the “idol of safety” makes me think of this scenario…
Abusive husband tells wife (who made him move out and is setting more safety boundaries): “You are too fearful. You need to have more courage.”
She replies: “I am courageous. I am standing up to you.”
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Sntezer’s sermon on Anger and Abuse here http://www.thevillagechurch.net/sermon/steps-week-5-anger-and-abuse/
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Julie Anne have you ever thought of writing a book? I know that sounds a bit silly considering some of the folks you discuss because they write lots of books, or have others write them. But you have a unique voice maybe considering the tripe that is out there it would be a breath of fresh air. Just a thought.
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Hi Julie Anne,
First comment on any blog ever. 🙂 Just this week I came across a book called The Emotionally Destructive Marriage by Leslie Vernick. It is the most helpful, compassionate biblically based information I’ve come across in dealing with these kinds of issues. Her website is http://www.LeslieVernick.com. Loads of helpful balanced hope filled info. She concludes that if change is not forthcoming after logical practical steps are taken to save the relationship, that God does not place the institution of marriage above the people in the marriage. She concurs with the point that it is much healthier for the children to be away from an abusive marriage lest they learn exactly that. She also has many short video clips on you tube that are priceless. One is , how to determine whether your marriage is a difficult one, a disappointing one or an emotionally destructive one. The prescription for the last one is very different from the first two. Terrific, concise and compassionate info. that seems more balanced than much of what I’ve come across over my 33 years of marriage.
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I haven’t read all the comments but just want to say there is a post at A Cry For Justice which gives the stories of two victims of abuse (one male, one female) who both testify that divorce was better for their children that remaining in the abusive marriage.
Marriage and Divorce —The Fallout
http://cryingoutforjustice.com/2012/11/15/marriage-and-divorce-the-fallout/
And here is another post called Staying For The kids? http://cryingoutforjustice.com/2012/05/04/staying-for-the-kids/
There are quite a few people at A Cry For Justice who say that when they were growing up their mother left their abusive father and thus they no longer had to live in the presence of all that abuse —- and they are GLAD their mother left.
And we hear from others who say that all throughout their childhood their mother remained with an abusive man and they wish she had left him, as life would have been much better for them if she had left the abuser. Some even say that they begged their mother to leave, but she didn’t.
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When I divorced, I made the decision to take my then elementary school-level son and myself to a reformed church. I was so excited when we began a sermon series on the books of Timothy, knowing that Timothy was raised in the faith by his mother and grandmother, not his Greek father. I wanted my son to hear that he was not disadvantaged in his place in the community or before God. Was this mentioned, as the pastor typically crawled verse by verse through each book? Nope. I believe this info merited a complete sermon, but was omitted because it didn’t benefit the “real’ families, or perhaps it might have given hope to those who might one day divorce. Moms, take every opportunity to teach your children what God says bout them. Don’t rely on your pastor. Ever.
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Barnabas in Training, your comment was ultra super uber magnifico splendiferous (with bells on). T.H.A.N.K.Y.O.U.
If I may prosaically draw conclusions from it, they would be:
Children may not understand why their parents divorced. They may see the irresponsible parent as the good/better parent. They may be quite mistaken in their interpretations. They form their opinions on the basis of limited information. And some of that information may be false: lies, falsehoods, half-truths, manipulations engineered by one of the parents.
We may infer from this that children may think that their parents’ divorce was a BAD thing and did them harm, but in actual fact the divorce may have given the kids a better life than they would have had if their parents had stayed together.
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Here is the thing that jumped out at me: This woman is assuming* an awful lot, much of which could be disproved by simply looking at the statistics about children raised in homes where abuse is going on, where the abused spouse “takes it”, & continues to suffer “for the children’s sake.
Because it is a commonplace (except in “The Village”**) that there are three highly common outcomes of this situation:
1. The abuser finally kills the abused, ends up in prison, & the child bounces around the foster care system forever.
2. The abused ends up killing the abuser in self-defense. The abused ends up in prison, & the child bounces around in foster care forever.
3. The child kills the abuser, in defense of the abused, & said child ends up in prison.
My goodness, how lovely [NOT!!] all these alternatives sound to the only sensible & sane choice: Calling the cops & having the abuser put away where abusers belong: prison, thus leaving the abused spouse & the child/ren with a life in which an innocent little one is no longer in the midst of this horrible mess.
* We all, I believe, know what it means to “assume” things.
** Does anyone besides me hear the theme from the old TV show “The Prisoner” whilst reading this church’s name?? And hear Patrick McGoohan exclaim, “I am not a number!!”
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I’m probably going to have to make more than one comment.
“For the good of the children, bear on your body the mark of covenant, the suffering of your own flesh for your own flesh, the sacrificial example of a parent who stays. ”
“The safety of any children involved need to be a top priority.”
Translation: it’s ok to divorce to protect the children from physical abuse, but not to protect *yourself* from physical abuse, regardless of the effect that has on you or the kids. This is actually WORSE than John Piper teaching that she needs to put up with being “smacked around for a night” before calling the cops.
“The dissolution of the marriage covenant puts the full weight of those sins on the child alone.”
I’m really sorry she feels this way. That must have been one bitter and nasty divorce. I am not the child of divorce myself, although there were times I wished I was (more about that later). I am still going to go out on a limb here and call B.S. on that statement. Partly because it reminds me too much of Gothard’s ideas about the “sins of the father”.
And finally:
Ferguson= son of an angry man
Dulcius ex asperis…Sweeter through Tribulation
Then there is my paternal heritage.
MacMillan= son of the tonsure of St. John (our 12th cen. progenitor wore the ancient Celtic tonsure instead of the Roman tonsure)
family crest: two hands wielding a claymore
clan motto: Miseris Succurrere Disco… I learn to help the distressed
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I mentioned in my previous comment that there were times I wished my parents had divorced. This is because after years of living with my dad’s anger issues, and the resulting emotional, verbal, and psychological abuse that alternated with times when we got along okay, by my mid-teens I wished we could have been rid of him a long time ago. Even if my mom and I had to struggle with poverty, sometimes I think that would have been preferable to living the results of his baggage. I’ve heard enough things about my dad’s family and childhood from relatives to have some idea of why he was the way he was, but just knowing that stuff didn’t make it easier when in the middle of one of his outbursts.
The one time he reached the edge of physical abuse when he got angry and started shoving me, part of me was terrified but the other part was hoping he would hit me. Sounds crazy, right? Who would WANT to be hit? But my 16 year old self knew if he did, I would finally have the excuse I needed to call the cops and maybe get him removed. I had already spoken with a 30 something year old single woman in our church who worked a lot with the youth if I could move in with her, if things ever got bad enough and she said yes. Just knowing I had that ‘out’ gave me a degree of confidence to stick through things.
As my dad has gotten older, I have seen him mellow out in some ways, though not entirely. I know my mom has prayed for him A LOT for many years now, and they normally get along as far as I know. He can still occasionally get verbally nasty, but for the most part we can interact alright. Them living far away from us for years has helped, although both my parents really wish they could be closer to their grandkids whom each has seen about once a year. I’m an only child, and our 5 are the only ones they’re going to get.
Dad and I have also discussed handling old age issues, which I’m more than happy to help with. When he passes away though, I don’t know if I will be able to shed any tears. It’s possible I will primarily feel relief. That sounds rather bad, I know, but it’s the truth. Mom’s death will be harder.
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All: This is an important prayer request that came in via e-mail. Please pray for this precious person who is part of our SSB family here:
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Oh, my goodness! Does that person have anyone nearby to help? If they’re anywhere in the greater Cincinnati Ohio area…
Definitely praying.
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Hi Judy,
Wow, I’m honored that you chose your first comment here. I do have Leslie’s book and it is excellent. A close friend of mine read it and it opened her eyes to what she had long suspected was going on her marriage. Emotional abuse is sometimes difficult to identify as abusers are able to make things appear “normal.”
Your comment reminded me of another excellent resource I saw last month – it was a webinar with Leslie Vernick and another pastor discussing how pastors can help emotionally destructive marriages. This info in this link would be good to pass along to pastors. http://helpformylife.org/2014/04/02/shepherding-the-emotionally-destructive-marriage-webinar/
At the bottom of that link is a paragraph that has very helpful resources put out by RBC Ministries which is an organization recognized and respected all across the board in churches. I see their pamphlets like Our Daily Bread all over the place. I had no clue until last year that they had these pamphlets that are also available via pdf. We can easily get these in the hands of people FREE!
God’s Protection for Women is just excellent.
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http://cryingoutforjustice.com/2014/05/26/grumpy-old-man-or-abuser/ is another post at ACFJ that touches on the viewpoint of adult children of abusers. Several comments relate how children have begged their parents to flee, offered refuge, and trying to coach new friends on how to interact with the abuser.
Brenda R states: “Nothing worked with my Mom. It was her second marriage after my dad had abandoned us. We all suffered for her decision to stay with him. No matter how much I begged she’d only say that she’d just end up with worse. She lived with that vile man for 53 years, until he died. I do understand where she was coming from. For so many years I believed the lie that if you weren’t married you were less than complete. Now, after the divorce, I realize that I am far more complete than I ever was with a man.
It meant the world to me when my oldest daughter wanted to share an apartment with me, but I stayed 3 more years and in the meantime she moved to another state. But, her confidence that I could make it on my own was helpful in my confidence building.”
I believe that the author of this article is a Thunderpuppy who hasn’t been tempered by life enough to know that she’s barking at the mailman. This isn’t ok. This is absurd in my opinion. Especially this bit “For the good of the children, bear on your body the mark of covenant, the suffering of your own flesh for your own flesh, the sacrificial example of a parent who stays.” I think that is beyond irresponsible to tell people to bear this suffering in their flesh in this context. It is strongly implied that criminal abuse should be endured “for the good of the children.” I can’t understand. I just can’t understand how this kind of thing gets past the risk analysts! But the stories I’ve heard from victims who have survived Villages “Reconciliation” process make me wonder when Village is going to be in the news because their “Reconciliation” counsel has resulted in the death/deaths of the reconciled.
And JA, I am praying for the your reader. I know that despair. I wish I could go hug your reader right now.
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I have found this website to be an excellent resource for abuse…if anyone would be interested in browsing around.
http://emergingfrombroken.com/
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I used to be a substance abuse counselor and in that also counseled those with domestic violence issues.
Children of abusive parents are more likely to either be abused or marry an abuser.
So one would be protecting the children if they at least separated from a violent spouse. The laws, at least in CA (my home state) require it. So, say a parent is abused and does not go get help and get a restraining order, then her child(ren) is/are abused as a result of that parent not protecting the children by leaving, then the injured parent can also be considered as fostering the abuse of the abusive parent. I’m sure you’ve read articles in the news about such cases. I know I have.
But if we are honest then we must ask ourselves if the abusive spouse is living up to their marriage vows or have they actually abandoned the believing spouse? If they’re abusing their spouse I contend the abusive spouse has abandoned the believing spouse as though they are an heathen, an unbeliever and set themselves up as an enemy rather than protector.
I think there are many pastors who would agree as I got this view from a Christian pastor I heard teaching on the radio. Still I agree there are many pastors turning a blind eye and in some cases encouraging the abuse to continue using verses on submission, etc.
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Thank you. I am so grateful for the prayers and kind words for this precious person.
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Cathryn, I’d sure like to know where those pastors are. Many pastors are more into the “Covenant” of marriage than what is really going on in the home. Here is what I have seen:
If there is abuse, better not divorce because that tarnishes the witness of Christ in what He has joined together. Um – – – what about the atrocity of a false witness of an abusive marriage and the collateral damage to children that learn this bad behavior if abuser is unwilling to repent and change their ways?
Another idea I’ve heard – – better to remain separated than divorce. In this case, abuser gets to go off scott free, victim has to suffer financially, emotionally, and rarely gets any real help from the church. Again, it’s all about that “sacred” covenant. The victim gets re-victimized.
Basically, if an abused spouse, usually woman, divorces, she gets the blame for filing and is in the wrong. The attention gets diverted to her for filing, and little to nothing gets done with the abuser by church leaders.
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Julie Anne,
Thanks. More like was required to see things as they are than made great discoveries. But, yeah. 🙂
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If preachers want to bring down the divorce rate they wouldn’t preach against fallout/consequences/effect. They would preach against bombs like adultery/abuse/neglect. Take away the cause/mistreatment & you take away necessary divorces. Preachers should teach the marriage covenant is broken/damaged at time of mistreatment, not at time of divorce.
A Mom,
I’m glad you found my comment helpful. 🙂 And you are absolutely correct in what you say here. I couldn’t agree more.
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It seems we’ve got a lot of Protestant pastors trying to practice the doctrine of Sola Scriptura by deciding that if there is no *explicit* verse in the New Testament allowing divorce for abuse, then the best the abused spouse can do is separate (for a season).
If the abuse claims Christianity and “repents”, then of course the victim must forgive a fellow Christian! If the abuser is an acknowledged unbelieving husband who does not obey the Word, then she must stay in the hope that he will be won over without words by the purity of her life, etc.
If the victim is a husband with an abusing wife, I wonder if he gets told that he must lay down his life for his wife like Christ did for the Church, by accepting her abuse. Besides, if he’s the head of the home, any misbehavior of hers is ultimately his responsibility. 😛
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Sorry if that looks like a smiley at the end, it was supposed to have a tongue sticking out to indicate sarcasm.
I think Doug Wilson taught that all problems in a marriage are completely the husband’s responsibility, even if they’re not all his fault.
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Hurting people hurt people.
My parent’s both non-believers were abusive to each other and me.There was a time my father threatened divorce cause my mom didn’t have his dinner ready when he got home. I can’t say if it would have been better if they divorced, but thankfully God saved me as an adult so I wouldn’t repeat the behavior I saw in my home growing up. But it did lead me to live a very depressed life as a child.
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“I was wondering how they were going to counsel/ “engage both the abuser and the abused with the gospel in hopes of repentance and reconciliation” when the abuser would be sitting in jail for his/her CRIME against the other. I am left wondering if that is not an option at The Village Church? To report domestic abuse to the authorities?”
Also,
What if abuser has heard the gospel countless times? (sigh)
Anyone who knows anything about domestic abuse knows you NEVER put them in a room together for “counseling” which is exactly what most pastors try to do. It is the same principle SGM used for child molestation. Put victim and molester in room together to reconcile. Boy these perps just love that.
And if the abused filed a restraining order after calling the police what does the church do then? Go with her to court? My view is that the church leaders would tell the abuser to abuse them instead. :o)
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“In all other issues of marital difficulty and division, the command of the Lord is clear, divorce is not to be pursued (1 Corinthians 7:10). If a member of The Village Church pursues divorce on any non-biblical ground, they will be engaged by the pastors and elders of the church and called to repentance and reconciliation.7”
If you go to a church that teaches this, check and see if you signed anything when you became a member. Get a copy of it. It might be a membership covenant sort of thing where you unwittingly agreed to obey the leaders. If you did, immediately write a letter stating you are withdrawing your membership. Make copies. Send it certified mail.
Now they have to leave you alone or they will be harassing you.
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@Lydia
MAY 29, 2014 @ 10:21 AM
“I was wondering how they were going to counsel/ “engage both the abuser and the abused with the gospel in hopes of repentance and reconciliation” when the abuser would be sitting in jail for his/her CRIME against the other. I am left wondering if that is not an option at The Village Church? To report domestic abuse to the authorities?”
Also,
What if abuser has heard the gospel countless times? (sigh)
Anyone who knows anything about domestic abuse knows you NEVER put them in a room together for “counseling” which is exactly what most pastors try to do. It is the same principle SGM used for child molestation. Put victim and molester in room together to reconcile. Boy these perps just love that.
And if the abused filed a restraining order after calling the police what does the church do then? Go with her to court? My view is that the church leaders would tell the abuser to abuse them instead. :o)”
I am hoping that people I know who have walked this EXACT scenario at Village will comment.
I don’t know when Village suggests getting people with a badge and a prison cell involved. Village seems to think that they can give a “walker (my term and I would rather call them zombies)” to “walk alongside” the abuser and admonish him to quit it. By the way, that doesn’t work.
Village Victims, please tell your stories here. You will be heard.
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“One, need a certain abuser to stay away from me and my house, and just leave me alone.
Two, my complete and total hopelessness and eventual-suicide prediction.
”
Can we hook this person up with some resources. There has to be a domestic abuse resource somewhere she can call. The abuser can make you feel totally helpless which is a lie. You are not. In my city the spouse abuse center will even pay for the taxi that brings you to them. Please exhaust all resources before giving in to despair.
Praying……
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Julie Anne, may I ask a favor please? My longtime blogging friend just left a horribly abusive church. She then posted about being sexually abused–and after I posted the link on social media, an old friend of mine got on her blog and blasted her, calling her bitter, among other nasty things. Would you all mine visiting her blog, reading his comment, and schooling him in the error of his ways? She was so brave to post this, she’s STILL reeling from leaving her abusive church, & this just hurt so much. Thank you–Taylor Joy. http://www.orthodox-christian.com/purity-doctrine-says-sexual-assault-makes-you-worthless/
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Barbara, wow. 🙂 Glad you liked it. 🙂
I think you are right in your assessment.
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@taylorjoyyoung
MAY 29, 2014 @ 10:32 AM
Julie Anne, may I ask a favor please? My longtime blogging friend just left a horribly abusive church. She then posted about being sexually abused–and after I posted the link on social media, an old friend of mine got on her blog and blasted her, calling her bitter, among other nasty things. Would you all mine visiting her blog, reading his comment, and schooling him in the error of his ways? She was so brave to post this, she’s STILL reeling from leaving her abusive church, & this just hurt so much. Thank you–Taylor Joy. http://www.orthodox-christian.com/purity-doctrine-says-sexual-assault-makes-you-worthless/
I will go to support her, but abusers can’t be schooled. He won’t listen as I wrote in http://cryingoutforjustice.com/2014/05/05/trying-to-explain-and-trying-and-trying-and-trying/, these types just exhaust you and wear you down. I am sorry that this person has behaved so badly to your friend.
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Ellie, There is some thinking in certain church leadership circles most don’t want to admit. And that thinking is that when it comes to abuse of women and children it is just not that big of deal to them. They are more interested in the abuser for many reasons. And let’s face it, most of the time the abuser is male. (there is female abuse, I know but statistically it is mostly male)
In male dominated cultures like many church cultures in evagelicalism it is seen as right and just to focus on the abuser with grace. It is like a notch in the belt of grace. They do not even realize this because they have been so used to elevating males and male status in the pecking order.
But most times the abuser is a great actor, too. That is how the abuser got the abused to marry them. That is how perps “groom” kids, too. These pastors think they are above being fooled? In fact, they are ripe for being fooled becasue of their pecking order doctrines.
it is almost as if these pastors see the abused wife and molested kid as lesser beings who must reconcile with the abuser and “endure” or there is something wrong with them. After all, the abuser/molester repented, right?
The entire system is sicko. It is what happens when you elevate males in a pecking order “spiritual” caste system.
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“I will go to support her, but abusers can’t be schooled. He won’t listen as I wrote in http://cryingoutforjustice.com/2014/05/05/trying-to-explain-and-trying-and-trying-and-trying/, these types just exhaust you and wear you down. I am sorry that this person has behaved so badly to your friend.”
EXACTLY. What we do is encourage her. Tell her the truth. Support her.
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“It seems we’ve got a lot of Protestant pastors trying to practice the doctrine of Sola Scriptura by deciding that if there is no *explicit* verse in the New Testament allowing divorce for abuse, then the best the abused spouse can do is separate (for a season). ”
They are ignorant. David Instone Brewer has great teaching on this. He has some videos online that go through the OT and NT scriptures that show how most pastors get this very wrong.
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@Lydia
MAY 29, 2014 @ 10:41 AM
“In male dominated cultures like many church cultures in evagelicalism it is seen as right and just to focus on the abuser with grace. It is like a notch in the belt of grace. They do not even realize this because they have been so used to elevating males and male status in the pecking order.
…
it is almost as if these pastors see the abused wife and molested kid as lesser beings who must reconcile with the abuser and “endure” or there is something wrong with them. After all, the abuser/molester repented, right?
The entire system is sicko. It is what happens when you elevate males in a pecking order “spiritual” caste system.”
Yes! Especially to the “notch in the belt of grace.” And then they feature these “reconciled” people in their videos to promote how Steps and Gospel Centered Community fixed them. And the fans go wild! I was there. I saw it. I was there for a “Let’s fix marriages” push and I saw the videos and I thought Village could fix us. I praise God that He took me away from there and I got to a church where repentance (instead of forgiveness, redemption, and commitment ala DTS http://cryingoutforjustice.com/2014/04/23/what-does-dallas-theological-seminary-say-about-divorce-and-redemption-in-cases-of-spousal-abuse-continued/) is the goal. REPENT! Think of it. To repent is to be sorry for sin and to hate and forsake it BECAUSE IT DISPLEASES GOD. Not because you don’t want the children to suffer, but because you love and trust Christ, because you HATE sin, you are changed. Repent. Change because you love Christ, not so that your “Reconciled” marriage can be featured in the next “We Fixed It” video. Because you love Christ you will respect the victim’s boundaries and not make demands. Because you love and trust Christ, you repent, NOT because of the poor children.
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From Lydia’s post:
“In the case of unrepentant and continued abuse, the abused is encouraged to immediately separate and is also expected to inform The Village Church who will attempt to engage both the abuser and the abused with the gospel in hopes of repentance and reconciliation. If such does not occur, the elders may deem the abuser an unbelieving spouse according to the tenets of Matthew 18:17 and allow for divorce on the basis of the spiritual desertion caused by the abuse.”
I’m glad they would at least point that thing in the direction of the abuser and recognize abuse as Biblical grounds for divorce, but this still bugs me.
First of all, what do they mean they will “allow” for divorce? Aren’t married people adults? Why does the victim need permission to determine the best course for their lives? Further, the victim may be responsible for minors. Subject to “allowance” then makes these men sort of Overparents of these children, above the parents. At least functionally if not technically. I could see if Village had said they would counsel/recommend/approve divorce, or something similar. But we are all adults here. What is this “allow” business?
Second, “expected to inform The Village Church…” I don’t know. Maybe “second” is the wrong word. It’s kind of the same thing, really. I get the sense this marriage is more a property of the church than between these two individuals.
And most obviously, what happens if the victim, who really knows the situation much more intimately and comprehensively than anyone else, draws completely different conclusions about the state of things and the best course of action than The Village Church does? What then becomes of her (we assume it is the woman who is the victim for the sake of simplicity and because the odds are overwhelming that this is the case).
I don’t know. I almost want to ask if these people wear uniforms.
Another matter, though, is that while they say they recognize abuse as Biblical grounds for divorce, it seems like things don’t work out that way in practice around there. A bit of yes and no going on there, it sounds like.
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BIT, they really think they are the ones who do the allowing. They are Piper all the way. They say that you may not remarry (this from Snetzer who is devoted to wife number 2). There is no allowing divorce. You will find the communion table fenced if you do that under their watch.
BIT, I know someone who can answer this all firsthand. I keep hoping she will.
Dear One, You will be heard here. You are safe here.
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“I don’t know. I almost want to ask if these people wear uniforms. :/”
BWAHAHA!
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Julie Anne,
Thank you for responding with those great links to Leslie Vernicks webinar and the RBC materials available. Very much appreciated.
I don’t know how you manage to do all this along with school etc. You are a wealth of info. and an amazing woman. Thanks for making the time to share. God bless!
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JA, I am praying for the person experiencing despair. I pray he/she has someone who is telling him/her that they are valuable and can give them practical steps to stay disengaged from their abuser. I wasn’t sure who the suicide is referring to, but I suffer from depression and have been seriously suicidal in the past. Whatever the crisis, no matter how hopeless, there is always hope-ending your life takes away any other options available. If this person has children, even if estranged, the legacy of suicide will make this act more possible for the adult child to consider in the future. However, if the abuser is threatening suicide to blackmail the person, this is just further psychological abuse and should not be tolerated. Most importantly, please do not isolate yourself. Keep reaching out for help from healthy role models. Though it may feel like it, you are not alone. I deeply care and know there are others who want to support you during this difficult time. I know it feels like eternity, but I promise, this too shall pass. Much Love, Ann
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Judy – I’m so glad you brought it up because I had forgotten to post Leslie’s book on the resource page.
I just found something else:
Are You in an Emotionally Destructive Relationship: Take this quick self-test to see if you are in an emotionally-destructive relationship. This test is taken from Leslie Vernick’s book, The Emotionally Destructive Relationship: Seeing It, Stopping It, Surviving It.
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Prayer request update:
I’ve had a couple of e-mails from our friend who asked for prayers. This person is reading the comments here and greatly appreciates the prayers and thoughtfulness.
Thanks much!
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I am also a child of divorce. I was too young to have any memories of my dad, so all I could rely on was the twisted lies my mom and her side of the family fed us kids about my dad. I never missed what I never knew, and I didn’t know my dad. It’s a shame, because we kids were obviously stuck with the abusive side of the family.
My mom was always promiscuous. Imagine me finding out three years ago, after finding out by some of my paternal aunts, uncles and cousins I found through ancestry.com and reunited with them at a large family reunion, that my dad was really not my dad. It seems when the cat was away, the mouse played with all 6 of his brothers. Any one of my uncles could be really our dad….or we each could even have been fathered by a different brother of my dad.
I also learned about how abusive and neglectful my mom was with us kids before they divorced. My mom even picked up my older brother by the ankles, when he was just a toddler, and held him upside down above the sidewalk, smashing his head into the concrete. We girls would go days without diaper changes and my sister even ate her own waste.
I love my mom. Don’t get me wrong. But I have lived a nightmare ever since I could remember. She always seemed peculiar. She worshiped her daddy. I think he may have molested her at some point in her life, and she in turn would have unfettered sex with everyone with anyone who would have her.
I truly think that she also molested my older brother when he was very young. Where else would he have learned to turn around and molest me at the age of four? She also was well known for psychological warfare and emotional blackmail. Plus there was plenty of physical abuse done to me by almost everyone else in the family over the years.
I escaped it all by joining the military, only to find abuse again in two failed marriages. Later, my mom started abusing my daughter physically, emotionally. I also caught her in the process of molesting my son when he was only two. I was fed up and reported her to DFS. But there was no proof, so it was found unsubstantiated.
Things are now much better with my mom. I do know she has some kind of mental illness that made her the way she was. I forgave her, but would keep the kids safely away from her.
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This is weird. I’m sure she meant that they’ll carry some kind of emotional / psychological burden for the rest of their lives, but I know enough people who are into generational blessings and curses, to know that someone would take this to mean that the children will actually “bear” the sin of their parents in some way.
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@ Taylor Joy:
If things get out of hand, just remember there is always the option of taking the troll’s toys away and blocking him.
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@ Hester, I totally agree, for the most part. However, in her case, a couple of different things are going on:
1) JR JUST left the super-controlling, fake Orthodox, abusive chirch that she was involved in for years. They’ve stalked her, trashed her name, and berated her on social media. She could really use the connection of knowing everyone in this community
2) this particular nasty commenter found her blog through me. :(. This commenter, Terry, was the deacon who backed me up when my pastor was spiritually abusing *me*. Terry literally saved my sanity by validating my decision to break ties w/ my abusive family; my pastor told me I had to “honor my father & mother.” Terry reminded me that my parents were addicts that would ruin my life. I’m deeply thunderstruck that MY biggest supporter is cutting my friend down.
3) As I told another commenter, this is an example of the worst kind of abuse towards survivors: not believing them, or blaming them for the abuse. Since JR is so new to the concept that THIS IS NOT HER FAULT, I was hoping that an outpouring of support from the survivor community would help her heal.
Hester, thanks for all YOU do–I’m actually going to be using your “Big Box” study in an upcoming blog series, if I can ever sleep long enough to have a clear enough head to write it. <3. Baby Agape has slept through the night ONCE, but I'm not placing bets on it happening regularly, KWIM. ;).
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@ Taylor Joy:
Thanks. 🙂 If it helps, the blog just got a bit of a facelift because I added an “above the fold” feature where only the first paragraph or two of a post is shown on the front page; you have to click the title or “continue reading” to see the rest. What this means is you can actually scroll down the page now and see multiple posts. It was necessary to add because my posts are usually so long, and I had time tonight so I did it. This, along with the extensive tag cloud, should make it easier to find things now.
Kudos to you for attempting to blog with a newborn, BTW. I would have probably wussed out and taken a sabbatical. 🙂
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In an online discussion that a number of us were participating in, the topic of divorce came up and I was asked what I understood from the Scriptures. The question put to me was: “When does the Bible permit divorce?”
I spent some time looking up a few well-known Bible passages and further pondering this topic. This was an opportunity to put into writing some observations about these Bible passages and to formulate some ideas into a reasonable answer. That response is now in an article posted on my website. This is not an indepth look at this topic but a suitable response for the context of that discussion.
Agreed: There is much harmful advice given to women by church leaders–which so often hinders, rather than helps, serious marriage dysfunction. To tell someone that spiritual, sexual, physical, and/or mental abuse has to be tolerated because of marriage vows, is not a message from God. Many clergy advise wives to stick with the marriage and avoid divorce at all costs. Under these types of circumstances, this advice is harmful and should be disregarded.
You can find this article on my ChurchExiters.com website:
http://www.churchexiters.com/2014/05/divorce-when-does-the-bible-permit-divorce/
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Barb, that is a great article! Thank you for linking it; and thank you for writing it.
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I tell women who are in abuse marriages that their pastor doesn’t get a vote unless he takes their place for a year.
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Off topic — but did anyone see the exposé on Dave Ramsey?
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/29/spies-cash-and-fear-inside-christian-money-guru-dave-ramsey-s-social-media-witch-hunt.html
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@Anon2:
Big Name Christianese CELEBRITY…
Abusive Godly boss (according to former underlings)…
Fear of how far he’ll go to silence dissent…
Obsessed with “Bitter Gossip” about Himself…
Where have we seen this before?
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Ramsey offering $5000-$20000 bounties for Bitter Gossipers(TM) on the Web —
Can Directive R2-45 LRH or “Let Bubba Do It” be far behind?
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I read the article on Ramsey and my chronological thoughts were:
1. Dude, it’s called free speech. Deal with it.
2. Does “gossip” even have a definition?! Everyone acts like it’s this obvious thing when it isn’t. Ramsey seems to define it as “saying anything negative about anybody where other people can hear or read it,” which is frankly just bull and would make Paul and Jesus “gossips.”
3. Christian culture falls for and promotes yet another abuser.
4. If Ramsey treats his employees this way at work (where people can see), how does he treat his family / help at home (where no one can see)?
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I “drank the Dave Ramsey Kool-Aid” for YEARS. It’s actually how I met my friend “JR”. I have a great deal of blogging to do about it, considering that my husband—gosh, I don’t even know how to say it without making him sound like a monster. Before I say it, he IS repentant, he has agreed to counseling, and he seems 100% on board w/ some serious changes in our lives. Anyway, I realized that the way my husband was acting would be considered “financial abuse,” (refusing to work sometimes, piling up debt, putting ridiculously unrealistic expectations on ME regarding homeschooling and working, etc) and THAT’S when I moved to get out of patriarchy, insisted my husband get mental health treatment, and started making some serious changes in my own life. Ramsey’s rules about “gossip” aren’t even close to Biblical, and I’m going to try and write about that today. Hester, if I took a blogging sabbatical, w/ four kids, I’d go absolutely out of my mind. ❤
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I’m having a hard time reading that Ramsey article because my eyes keep wanting to do things like instead of reading Dave Ramsey they want to see “Dave Rambo” and instead of Lampo Group, they see “Lampoon Group.”
So I’ve got Dave Rambo who runs the Lampoon Group in my head.
I insist it’s not deliberate, however appropriate it may or may not be.
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@Hester:
More like “Saying anything — ANYTHING — negative about MEEEEEEEE!!!!!!”
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Speaking of all the Dave Ramsey talk.
Someone in my family used to think highly of Ramsey for years and recommend his books to me and others, I don’t think this person is aware of Ramsey’s bullying and wacked out behavior, though.
I read part of a Ramsey financial book a few years ago. It was okay.
I read the Daily Beast article about Ramsey the other day:
Christian Money Guru’s Paranoid World
I had no idea until seeing articles like that one from Daily Beast how disturbed the guy is, or how thin-skinned or hyper sensitive to jokes and ribbing he is.
The man comes across as being a total bully, and I do not like bullies.
Ramsey also came off as sounding unhinged.
At one staff meeting, the article said, he was complaining about “gossips,” and said something about “here is what we do to gossips,” and opened a bag of guns or something (the implication is that gossips should be shot, I guess).
It’s startling that a guy who markets himself as a “Christian” guru would imply using violence on critics is okay.
Another thing, too, is if you have been on the internet for a few years, you know to ignore the trolls. This Ramsey guy is doing the opposite to that.
These parody accounts Ramsey hates are trolling for kicks, giggles, and to blow off steam.
By paying them so much attention, he is feeding them, egging them on. If he would stop talking about them, most of this would die down. He’s creating his own problems by focusing on them in staff meeting and media articles.
I know it is sometimes difficult to ignore online critics and trolls.
I know how tempting it is to want to fire off a rebuttal to every nasty comment, tweet, or blog post, but if you can force yourself to not reply, the other party usually peters out, tires, and stops blogging about you. Even if they continue, if you stop challenging every comment they make, you pretty soon stop caring about what they say.
There are more stories about him in the news, such as,
Christian Money-Man Dave Ramsey’s Power-Drunk Paranoia (from Nashville Scene)
Daily Beast: Dave Ramsey went on ‘witch hunt’ against disgruntled … (Nashville Business Journal)
Dave Ramsey Reportedly Silences Critics on Twitter and Facebook
(ChristianityToday)
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Barb O said,
I’ve never married, I’m still single, but I am saddened and puzzled that so many Christians behave as though divorce is a “top five sin,” that it ranks above murder, for instance.
As I’ve read more about divorce the last few years, I’ve arrived at the conclusion that a lot of Christians have misunderstood Jesus’ teaching on it.
Some of the material I’ve read points back to the Old Testament, where a marriage could be broken if the husband didn’t provide clothing, shelter, etc, and it was understood in New Testament times that Jesus knew all that.
In other words, adultery was not the only reason God permitted for divorce in OT days, there were other reasons God permitted divorce, but this has been overlooked by present day Christians.
And meaning, Jesus was not teaching, as many suppose, that adultery was the ONLY reason a person could divorce.
Abuse, neglect, etc, are other reasons the marital covenant could be broken, if one looks back to the OT, but most Christians only focus with blinders about his “except for adultery” clause.
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HAHA – I think if Brad saw this, he would have a lot of fun with it.
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