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Joe Carter of The Gospel Coalition publicly attacks Sarah Palin for her use of the word “baptism” in the context of a NRA political rally.
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“Well, if I were in charge, they would know that waterboarding is how we baptize terrorists.” ~Sarah Palin
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Joe Carter, an editor at The Gospel Coalition seems to be a bit miffed about the above phrase used by former Alaskan governor, Sarah Palin. Let me give you the background scoop. Palin, the former 2008 vice presidential nominee, was at a National Rifle Association rally discussing politics, NOT religion. She talked about leftist liberals and Democrats. She talked about violence and terrorism and enemies of America.
And then this comment came out of her mouth:
“Well, if I were in charge, they would know that waterboarding is how we baptize terrorists.”
No biggie. Where was she again? Oh yea, a packed-out NRA rally. The venue was not a church or religious conference. It was a political NRA rally. The topic was not Christianity and making a public profession of faith. It was clearly a political statement meant to rile up her political supporters (read: political, not Christian commentary).
Now I’m not going to be discussing whether I like Sarah Palin’s political agenda or not, whether it’s appropriate to use water boarding on terrorists or not, or whether it’s cool to own guns or not. I have my opinions, but that’s not the point.
However, some people don’t pay attention to the obvious: context, people, C.O.N.T.E.X.T!!! Joe Carter got all bent out of shape over Palin’s words.
Let’s get to the heart of Joe’s article, Is Waterboarding How We “Baptize Terrorists”? – Sarah Palin, Enemies, and Christian Anthropology. Mr. Carter writes:
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Why It Matters: For anyone to confess Christ as their savior and to compare one of the means of God’s grace to an act of torture is reprehensible. I hope members of Gov. Palin’s local church will explain to her why her remarks denigrate the Christian faith. Such remarks bring shame on the Body of Christ and to our witness in the world.
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Joe Carter thinks he’s going all “protect Christ” and “protect the Gospel” by his words. Again, look at the context and look at the venue. Was there a gospel choir singing there?
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No, I didn’t think so. Was there an altar call? Did people bring their Bibles? Perhaps on their cell phones. No, this was a NRA rally. So, let’s take a closer look at that “baptism” word. I checked four sources:
The 3rd entry of “baptism” definition reads:
a person’s initiation into a particular activity or role, typically one perceived as difficult.
Within the 1st entry at Merriam-Webster:
b : a non-Christian rite using water for ritual purification
The 2nd entry:
an act, experience, or ordeal by which one is purified, sanctified, initiated, or named
Dictionary.com:
- any similar ceremony or action of initiation, dedication, etc.
- a trying or purifying experience or initiation.
- Christian Science. purification of thought and character.
Oxforddictionaries.com – (please note the use of the word baptism in the sample phrase)
A person’s initiation into a particular activity or role, typically one perceived as difficult:
this event constituted his baptism as a politician
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Aside from the fact that Mr. Carter seems to make much ado of nothing regarding Palin’s little itty bitty baptism quote, his silence on other matters speaks volume to me – silence about real issues where the Gospel and Christ should be defended and has not by him, nor his friends at The Gospel Coalition – where children have been sexually violated, emotionally and spiritually abused while C.J. Mahaney was at the helm of Sovereign Grace Ministries.
Mr. Carter doesn’t want to touch that subject. Well, let me remind you about the little Sovereign Grace Ministries (SGM) fiasco:
The court documents (****strong trigger warning for sexual content***):
Original Complaint and Second Amended Complaint
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Putting aside the sex abuse and lawsuit, there has been enough turmoil going on at SGM that 20+ churches left the fold under Mahaney’s leadership:
Up to 20 churches have decided to no longer be under the direction of Sovereign Grace Ministries because of disputes over the leadership capabilities of the group’s president, Pastor C.J. Mahaney, and its executive board, say former and present associates. (Source: The Christian Post article)
One of the churches that left the fold was the SGM flagship church, Covenant Life Church (CLC). Pastor Josh Harris was mentored for several years by C.J. Mahaney. Why would Harris, also a Gospel Coalition council member, leave CJ Mahaney’s family of churches? Yet, prominent church leaders (Gospel Coalition council members) still don’t have a problem with associating with this man, or even sitting next to him in front row seats at the recent Together for the Gospel conference.
So while Sarah Palin got raked over the coals publicly by Joe Carter claiming, “Sarah Palin made the sacrilegious remark about how she would treat terrorists,” he remains silent about other matters that are much more important when it comes to defending the Gospel and shaming the name of Christ.
I am not the first person to notice Carter’s silence on the SGM scandal. Christian radio personality, Janet Mefferd, in her article, Why speaking the truth in love isn’t ‘slandering Christ’s Bride’, touched on this same topic:
But why is this significant? As I previously mentioned, The Gospel Coalition kept silent for many months about the Sovereign Grace Ministries sexual abuse lawsuit, in which 11 plaintiffs claim to have suffered heartbreaking sexual abuse and also allege conspiracy and cover-up. TGC has an association and stated friendship with lawsuit defendant C.J. Mahaney, and that means — even if Carter didn’t intend it — when he says, “don’t slander Christ’s bride,” a whole lot of people, rightly or wrongly, are reading that statement through the Sovereign Grace Ministries lawsuit lens. And they’re remembering The Gospel Coalition’s silence.
Here’s a little reminder from Pam Palmer, mother of a SGM lawsuit plaintiff who was sexually abused as a toddler while their family attended a Sovereign Grace Ministries church. A little background info – Pam was told by church leaders to NOT call the police after she discovered that her daughter had been sexually abused. Instead, she was told to bring her toddler in to reconcile with the perpetrator with church leaders. When the toddler saw her perpetrator, she hid under a desk. That visual has never left me.
Earlier, I asked Pam Palmer if she had any comments regarding C.J. Mahaney sitting in front-row seats with prominent church leaders at the recent Together for the Gospel Conference:
Sometimes I am at a loss for words on what to say at the insensitivity and callousness of C. J. Mahaney and the men who support him. What other conclusion can observant people come to when they see a disgraced (yet undisciplined) leader sitting in the front row at such a prominent event other than the men sitting with him approve of his 30+ year record of covering up child sex abuse. ~Pam Palmer, mother of plaintiff in Sovereign Grace Ministries abuse lawsuit.
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Baptism, schmaptism, Joe Carter. Let’s see:
The word “baptism” taken out of context
or
20+ churches leaving one of your council member’s family of churches, or maybe just a little sex abuse oversight – ahem – 67 combined pages of legal complaints of alleged conspiracy and cover up of sexual and spiritual abuse while Mahaney was captain of the ship. hmm.
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Mr. Carter, you seemed to be confused about: “bring[ing] shame on the Body of Christ and to our witness in the world.”
Just sayin’
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
You know, I never thought that one of JA’s posts would descend to the level of the gutter! 😉
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Thanks JA!!
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@ Gary~
“So, am I correct in thinking that this Amen Gutter System company is male owned, or is it required that a female owned company somehow, and however subliminally, be associated with something as lowly as a gutter?”
Appears there is a male owned Amen Gutter in Dallas who claims the work is guaranteed until Jesus returns.
As to whether or not gutters are lowly, keepers at home, feminine and quiet in spirit-I cannot say. I went to the experts- Sound Home Resource Center (see—just like TGC types like their SOUND doctrine, I went to Sound Home…uh oh…is it sacrilege to name your website Sound Home Resource Center when Sound CLEARLY has a religious meaning?) and they suggest that gutters are indeed essential on homes subject to frequent rain- since water standing next to a home’s foundation can cause costly damage and huge problems-not to mention nasty mold and fungus wood rot.
I would deem gutters to be in authority and mini-saviors to one’s home. 🙂
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I have attempted to raise the status of gutter in this thread.
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Wendell, are you saying my mind is in the gutter? I resemble that remark.
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Should we excuse your “gutteral” speech then? 😉
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What, do you like bowling, JA? Perhaps that explains it!
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I actually do like bowling.
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“If Sarah Palin was running against Hillary Clinton, what would TGC do? Just saying…”
Hee Hee. Good one. Knowing them as I do, I believe they would be secretly hoping for a cat fight. That is their view of women.
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“As much as I would love to talk the political side, I won’t. My frank observation is that Carter should concern himself with SBC issues and not a speech given by a former candidate to a secular organization. If she were a pastor, talking to an avowed Christian organization, this would be different, but she isn’t and wasn’t. ”
But remember! Al Mohler was recently speaking at BYU about “us” standing together and possibly going to jail together because of persecution. So the SBC and Mormon Church being persecuted together. Who woulda thunk it. (Just an FYI if you are wondering where Joe gets his thinking)
“And believe it or not folks, there are even atheists in the NRA!”
Seriously? I thought they were all fundy Southern white guys with Confederate flags on their pick up trucks. (Actually, a dear black friend of mine is an NRA member and chides me all the time for being a “Barney Fife” when it comes to guns. He took me to a shooting range this past summer. I was not that bad….for a girl)
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I purposely avoid those businesses that have a fish on their advertisement. Had too many bad experiences. I expect Christians to be professional, do a great job and be paid a fair price just like anyone else providing services. But often, it is the opposite. They expect you not to mention shoddy work because…..you are a Christian too.
This issue became a HUGE problem in mega churches where many people go to do business networking because it is a captive audience of networking. There were tons of complaints that some of them even stopped distributing the shepherds guides. Real estate agents and insurance people were the biggest problems!
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From the above linked Psy Today article-
“8. If the predator is in a position of authority within a religious organization, he or she can claim persecution by the “enemies” of the church or the organization. Any outside scrutiny subjecting the predator to the sanitizing rays of light is thus characterized as, “them,” the unbelievers “against us.” This often compels the group to “circle the wagons” in support of their leader, as we saw with David Koresh and Jim Jones. And of course they will argue that it is we the “outsiders,” who are distrusting of the leader/predator, and who don’t understand, because we simply don’t have “faith,” or we are (the more trendy) “haters.”
For the religious-based predator it is very convenient to label these individuals enemies of the: “the church,” “the Lord”, “the congregation,” “the prophet,” “the leader(s),” “the free practice of religion,” and an attack on the “the anointed,” “the faithful,” or the “righteous,” on and on. Once you label something an “enemy,” it truly does bring the true believers, as Eric Hoffer warned us, further together. This is exactly what happened when inquiries were first made of Warren Jeffs – later convicted of sexual assault on two girls. This is exactly the argument made by those who supported Jim Jones, many of whom are now dead as a result of his command to his followers to poison their own children and themselves.”
Gosh…the above looks very familiar when I re-read Carter’s tweets to Julie Anne.
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“I used to be a staunch conservative voted for Bush twice but after my experiences with evangelical Christianity and patriarchy I now find myself agreeing with the left more often.”
that is very much how it works, Taunya. So many people coming out of patriarchy and other religious cults automatically go the opposite direction. And it is the same tyranny in the end. The truth is it is all about “voting blocks” and that landscape is changing rapidly. Too lengthy to get in here but the problem is Democrat/Republican no longer represents most people. they find themselves in and out of both categories.
I do not believe in a theocracy nor do I believe in collectivism— both of which demand an oligarchy. I always opt for smaller government and the most personal Liberty (of choices) I can get. Just like I don’t think the pastor knows what is best for me, neither does the President. The less power DC has over our daily choices in life the better.
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@LydiaS,
I worked for a ‘c’hristian bookstore in the late 80’s to early 90’s. The owner was blatantly dishonest in many of her dealings. For example, during the first Gulf war, one of the Bible societies sent us a box load of small booklets (don’t remember the title), and asked us to get them to the chaplains of the nearby army base for distribution to the troops deploying. Well, my boss took a number of them out of the box, put price stickers on them and put them on the shelf to sell. They were intended to be given to the troops for free and she was not charged one dime for them. There were other things too, but that is the biggest one I remember.
My wife currently works for a woman who claims to be a Christian and is even publishing her first “Christian” novel. Unfortunately, to the employees, she is a big abuser and is a big part of the reason my wife is retiring right now. She no longer can take the stress and pain inflicted by this ‘c’hristian.
It reminds me of Corrie Ten Boom’s statement that just because a mouse lives in a cookie jar, it does not make it a cookie!
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Wendall, I know. It is so much worse than what people think. From small scale to very large scale.
I just saw it on a vast level because of my work in seeker megas. I saw how it all worked from the “Christian” business people involved to para church ministries to the church itself. It is like a giant club. There really is no difference. It is all about making bank off Jesus and it works because we tend to “trust” the plastic fish symbol attached.
You want to see attendance soar and tithes double? Get a local/national celeb baptized in your mega. Like say, a well known basketball coach.
American Evangelicalism is awash in cult of personality and greed.
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Julie Anne, I’ll tackle your question about the use of the word baptism. As someone who loves writing – and reading – I would say that a word like “baptism” can’t be treated as just a neutral object. Words evoke all sorts of responses, and I believe Palin was deliberately currying favor with a conservative Christian crowd by using the word. It is WRONG? I don’t know how to answer that. I think her use shows contempt for what baptism means in the context of our faith – and for the Three-in-One God in whom many of have been baptized. Other words like “crucify” or “persecution” can be similarly misused. I only skimmed the discussion of the Amen Gutter Co., but unless someone can provide a reason why gutters are in conflict with the nature of saying “amen”…I mean, it’s weird, but it’s hardly the same thing as the gap between baptism and waterboarding. It’s hard to avoid the politics entirely, because what makes Palin’s statement so offensive is that she IS tying these images together: baptism through faith in Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, and torture. That we can’t all have a consensus on what torture is, for the moment, only makes this conversation harder to have.
To say it’s just a word that can mean any of these various things is a bit naive, I think. And why can’t Joe Carter be horribly wrong about tons of things (even more important things) – as I think he is – and still be correct about this one thing?
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@LydiaS,
Part of the problem is the shifting of the definition of terms. We paint with broad brush strokes and want to label each other when no one label usually fits.
I think what irks me the most is the conflation of evangelicals with fundamentalists that is inferred in many of our conversations. No one can really define with precision what each of those are, yet if you are conservative evangelical like I am, it is automatically assumed that you are a fundamentalist. The terms have changed so much that the labels don’t really fit well now.
If being a fundamentalist is simply believing in inerrancy, then I guess I am one; however, believing in inerrancy does not mean that one has to hold on to the extreme views of many fundamentalists. For example, while I believe in inerrancy, that does not mean I have to believe that the creation account is a literal 6 days. It could easily be a figurative number, and I accept that. I have my own view of creation, I don’t hang my hat on it, nor do I want to argue it and call someone else an unbeliever just because I may believe differently on that point.
If being a fundie means that I have to believe that women can only dress a certain way, cannot teach men, have to be slaves to their husbands, etc., then I am not one as I hold none of those views. Yet, I believe the basic fundamentals of Scripture that there is only one way to heaven (Christ), God is triune, the substitutionary atonement, original sin, virgin birth, etc.
So we put these convenient labels on ourselves and others, both politically and theologically and we are forever seen through the lens of that label.
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1. I don’t really know who Carter is, but the accusations he threw at JA on Twitter are complete crap. Palin’s word choice is not “abuse” and is nowhere near morally equivalent to SGM pedophilia.
2. I don’t think I can get behind dragging the sacraments into a political rally, torture or no torture. Yes, I know there are other uses of the word “baptize,” but I know how much some of these people blend politics and religion and I’m sick of it. Given that there’s so much disagreement about the moral status of waterboarding (see upthread), I think it was a poor choice on Palin’s part. But I’ve never had much time for political rallies and speeches anyway.
3. If Carter really does believe that waterboarding is torture, then yeah, I can see why he would be outraged. I would have just let him be outraged and moved on.
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Sharon – I love passionate people! 🙂
I still can’t go with it. I say you CAN speak a “Christianese” word and have it not mean something Christian. If not, then why would it be listed in the dictionary as such? Even on the first entry – 1b!
Being a Navy wife for over a decade, there are all kinds of traditions – men are initiated in a specific Naval tradition or rite when they cross the equator, etc. That could be termed that they were baptized when they crossed the equator. I could give you so many more examples, but in the context of talking about water boarding, I think that’s where she was going.
Ok, Sharon – you can keep trying with me if you want – lol It’s fine. I’m probably not going to budge. And I’m cool with you disagreeing with me. We have so much other common ground.
Oh, and re: Joe being right about one thing and wrong about so many others. That’s not an issue with me, either. Obviously the pastor who sued me was right about a lot of things or we wouldn’t have remained there for so long. That is what makes things difficult until you experience the full meal deal.
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I don’t think that water boarding was even an issue to Joe, Hester. (And my stupid computer will NOT let me put that word together and I’m too lazy to make it.)
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“Totally off topic: I’m trying a new bookmark program because I was keeping links in a very primitive fashion. I just got an account at Diigo.com Has anyone used it? And if you’ve used it and you like something better, please let me know that, too.”
I’ve never even heard of Diigo. Hope it works like you want it to. Google chrome allows me to create folders. I just name one that I hope is relevant enough to the topic that I’m bookmarking info in. My biggest issue is culling it occasionally to keep it cleaned up.
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I’m not trying to budge you – just trying to answer the question you asked. People seldom come around to my way of thinking – I’m used to it! Actually, your mentioning Naval tradition made me think of something, though. We just went through my father-in-law’s funeral last week, with full military honors. Since his mother had already passed, my husband received the flag in the ceremony. It’s a beautiful ceremony – even to someone who is a pacifist. 🙂 And I wouldn’t say that the flag is just a piece of fabric, even though in the most literal sense that’s absolutely true. We imbue meaning into the flag but there is no IS-ness to that meaning, objectively – just as we collectively imbue symbolic meaning into words. In fact, that awareness of what the flag means to many people is why my husband passed it on to one of his sisters to keep in her home. Because of our faith commitment (nonviolent, anabaptist-leaning) we do not pledge the flag. Better for it to be loved, respected and honored in the home of someone who holds it in high regard, right?
I’d like to see Sarah Palin show that same regard for a sacramental rite of the Christian faith.
And now I’m really and truly done. 🙂
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“I think what irks me the most is the conflation of evangelicals with fundamentalists that is inferred in many of our conversations. No one can really define with precision what each of those are, yet if you are conservative evangelical like I am, it is automatically assumed that you are a fundamentalist. The terms have changed so much that the labels don’t really fit well now.”
Wendall, I have been thinking about this for a long time. You are right, the labels don’t work anymore. Heck, some of my liberal pro Obama friends are stricter on some social issues than I am. And that is because I do not see most of them as indicative of Federal government responsibility. Some perhaps are local/state. Depends. I have come to the conclusion (with the help of Verduin) Jesus was for a composite society because that is where we can truly be salt and light. (I even believe God wanted a composite society in the OT and the Israelites were to influence the pagans around them. Sadly, the opposite happened)
I cannot even stomach “evangelical” anymore. Remember the headlines? Ted Haggard, “Evangelical”….It is even worse now. I made up a new name to describe myself. I am a “Resurrectionist”. (We are to live the new Life now) I mean who else has a God that comes to earth as a human, dies for us and proves we can have new life with the Resurrection?
Politically, I lean libertarian. (small government not anarchy)
I am a woman with no country. No “party”. No group to identify with. No movement. I will never be a foot soldier for any human ever again. I like it that way. Feels more “American”. I want us all to be independent and not dependent on a cult leader or the government. The government is responsible to us but it is too big and making way too many personal decisions for us.
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Personally, I’m disgusted with Sarah Palin’s flippant and heartless use of the term “baptism” and her assumption that everyone subjected to this treatment is a terrorist, when I think many are just ordinary people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. No matter how else the word is used, “baptism” has Christian connotations and a lady who identifies as a Christian is getting Christianity associated with torture and callousness in a way I cannot condone. But as for TGC’s response, it seems hypocritical to me to focus on the sacramental quality of a word when I don’t think they’re against waterboarding, and they cover over the crueller treatment of innocent children by SGM, etc.
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Here is something to consider: Carter and his fellow travelers in TGC often use the word “persecution” to describe those who bring up negative truths about them or their buddies. They accuse people of “persecuting” them all the time.
Why is it ok when they do it? Is it not the same thing they are accusing Palin of doing at the NRA?
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http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2014/04/15/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/
Check out the mental gymnastics on this one for them to use the word to describe themselves. these guys love redefining concepts and words.
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Ahh, don’t touch God’s anointed! Oh yeah, well if we are truly Christians, we are all anointed, so the question then becomes, “Are you saying your anointing is better, more effective or more important than mine?”
So, if you chastise me for coming against you as “anointed”, does that not mean that you are touching God’s “anointed” by chastising me?
Was Peter not “anointed” when Paul had to call him to account for treating gentile converts differently than Jewish one? Does Paul get a pass on the not touching God’s anointed because by doing these things, Peter was no longer anointed?
Sorry, your “anointing” does not give you immunity from others pointing out your sin!
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Chapmened24,
You said, “I am former military, and I totally disagree with you. Make no mistake from me, Jackie C., waterboarding is NOT torture. And I go to church.” I’m not sure why you mentioned your military background but thank you for serving. I give more weight to the UN Commission on Human Rights than to your opinion. Also since my husband witnessed horrendous torture when a paramedic in the Guatemalan army and he thinks waterboarding is torture, I’ll stick to my opinion.
JA, I respect your request to leave politics and torture out of the discussion but how is that possible when you took issue with Carter’s statement? We probably all agree he’s a hypocrite and his motives definitely suspicious but that doesn’t make his statement less true.
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So the vamp from Wasilla says “…If I were President…” huh? I bless Providence that the old dead white men who founded this nation made damn sure that Palin or anybody like her would NOT ascend to POTUS.
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JA – I should clarify. Her remarks don’t bring shame on Jesus’s name as Carter claims. That’s impossible to do. But Palin was wrong. I read a great article on it today by a rabbi and how all the religions use water as part of their religion to mean new life, which is why so many are appalled by her remarks, not just Christians.
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LydiaS,
“http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2014/04/15/are-christians-in-america-persecuted/
Check out the mental gymnastics on this one for them to use the word to describe themselves. these guys love redefining concepts and words.”
Actually, I agree with most of what the article you cited says. If it wasn’t written by TGC, I would probably be really clapping. As it applies to Christians in general, it is right on. If they are trying to say they are being persecuted because they are patriarchal in nature (or some other specific doctrinal error), then I have a problem.
I have witnessed and experienced some of that persecution first hand.
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“that is very much how it works, Taunya. So many people coming out of patriarchy and other religious cults automatically go the opposite direction. And it is the same tyranny in the end. The truth is it is all about “voting blocks” and that landscape is changing rapidly. Too lengthy to get in here but the problem is Democrat/Republican no longer represents most people. they find themselves in and out of both categories. ”
Well I can’t say I have gone in the opposite direction, I am now a political independent (religious too 🙂 ) I will vote for whomever I feel will do the best job without regard to party.
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“American Evangelicalism is awash in cult of personality and greed.”
You hit the nail on the head Lydia!
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“I have witnessed and experienced some of that persecution first hand.”‘
Do you mean in America and more of the harassment/discrimination variety? I have seen tons of subtle discrimination against conservatives (like the poor guy with a conservative candidate bumper sticker) in the school system and government that is totally denied. Are you talking about something like that?
If Saeed is being persecuted in Iran then what can we call what happens here to us? That is a broad brush which means the word will eventually have no meaning. Sort of like what happened to the word “Gospel”.
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“So the vamp from Wasilla says “…If I were President…” huh? I bless Providence that the old dead white men who founded this nation made damn sure that Palin or anybody like her would NOT ascend to POTUS.”
And the left claims they don’t hate. Amazing. How did the Founding Fathers disqualify her but not Obama or Clinton?
Vamp? Seriously? Is that some sort of sexual reference insult?
Why the vitriol? Can you just not agree with her ideology or even discuss it?
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Persecution can certainly be defined in a broad spectrum, but yes, I have seen people lose their jobs because of their faith and a few beat up. My job was threatened because of my faith one time. It does not have to be life threatening to be considered in the pale of persecution. It is a spectrum, not too unlike the autism spectrum where some are more severe than others.
As in domestic abuse, verbal persecution is still persecution and when someone’s livelihood is threatened or destroyed, then it becomes more severe. In many regimes, Christian persecution started by Christians losing their jobs or not being employable.
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“Vamp? Seriously? Is that some sort of sexual reference insult? ”
The name, Palin, invokes a great deal of hatred. Some people cannot avoid the ad hominem.
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Vamp: a seductive woman who uses her sensuality to exploit men. http://www.dictionary.com.
Even though Palin may use her attractiveness to her advantage, she is no vamp. And even though I’m not sure what term would be applied to a man who uses his good looks to his advantage (gigolo maybe?), I really cannot recall such sexist terms as having been applied to any male politician.
Come on Muff, lets show a little more respect for somebody who, no matter how we may or may not agree with her views, is being persecuted by the religious right’s old boys club.
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Joe is foul but I can say no better of Palin’s comment. Whether celebrating abusers inside the church or calling torture a purification rite, why do we walk with cruelty?
It makes no sense to me. Our faith is based on the ultimate act of love, so how do I face my agnostic friends without separating myself from such presentations?
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I have to disagree with you on this, Julie Anne.
Once you market yourself as a devout Christian in the public realm, that is the context, fair or not. From the moment she was plucked from obscurity to the national stage, she has cultivated her public persona as a devout Christian set out to “restore Christian values to America.” Her speech before the NRA crowd cannot be seen in isolation from the rest of her public persona. This is why I seldom introduce myself as a Christian because of the baggage associated with the label even though I am not even a public figure.
That said, your point on Joe Carter’s self-serving selectivity is spot on.
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Wendell G, would you be willing to tell what field and where in the country you and people you know have lost jobs and been beat up because of our faith?
I spent decades in the art field and at a private art college. About as secular as it gets, really, but while I was poked fun of initially, once I made clear who I was and how I saw Christ, people treated me as they treated each other. Over the years, several students and two faculty members came to me privately, wanting to talk about it, longing for the stability that my faith obviously brought me. They could see it even through my PTSD, which they could have easily used as an excuse to disrespect my beliefs.
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@Lydia:
In Victorian English, a “Resurrectionist” was a body-snatcher, stealing bodies from their graves and selling them to medical schools as specimens.
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Patrice,
I live in Texas and most of what I have seen and when my job was threatened was in the public school system and in the public sector. In my case, an assistant superintendent of the school district I worked for started mocking my faith and then pressured my boss to write me up. The official reasons were made up, but it was after he saw me carrying a Bible into my office so I could read it on breaks. That is when he started mocking me and very shortly after that, he started the pressure on my boss. It was not until I threatened a lawsuit that it stopped. I was not one of those who walked around bugging my coworkers about Christianity. I just did my job and if anyone asked me about it, I would talk with them.
As for the physical violence, I prefer not to give too much detail because I don’t want to start another controversy. Suffice it to say that some people did not like a particular stand we were taking on an issue and physically attacked some in our group. They were shouting insults about Christianity all the while.
Christian persecution does happen in this country. It is just that some do not like to call it that because it often isn’t endangering someone’s life here, or because they have not seen it themselves.
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Relax Lydia & Wendell, given my views of human sexuality and proclivities, the term ‘Vamp’ for me winds up as a term of endearment, seriously. And as for my satire on the office of POTUS? The Founders knew full well it was just a question of time before it would be on the block to the highest bidder, so they did their best to minimize the potential damage and should be applauded for it. Glad you mentioned Clinton and Obama! The oligarchs who call the shots don’t give a rat’s rip who’s in the oval office, just so long as he or she is pliant enough to get with the program. Bubba Clinton signed the repeal of the Glass-Steagall act which removed the last safeguards against financial oligarchs doing what they want. And do you know who Barack Obama’s largest campaign contributor in 2008 was? Goldman Sachs.
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Gary W.,
You said “lets show a little more respect for somebody who, no matter how we may or may not agree with her views, is being persecuted by the religious right’s old boys club.”
I’m not sure you can call it persecution when so many non-religious right people also took offense at her words. Carter is just a hypocrite and I’m sure has a purpose. His was the least convincing article I read on it. If she was someone who did not trade on her faith and broadcast her faith continually, it wouldn’t have touched most people. But she sells herself as a Christian; therefore her word usage is offensive.
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Wowee is it hot in here? I have some catching up to do.
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“And even though I’m not sure what term would be applied to a man who uses his good looks to his advantage (gigolo maybe?),….”
I though Mitt Romney looked like my old Ken doll. :o)
But good point, women are easy pickins in both realms.
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Jackie said:
Well, I suppose if you’re going along with his logic and assuming she meant Christian baptism vs the other non-religious uses of the word.
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“In Victorian English, a “Resurrectionist” was a body-snatcher, stealing bodies from their graves and selling them to medical schools as specimens.”
Gee thanks, HUG. That will help my dreams tonight. You are a veritable walking encyclopedia of fun facts. :o)
……back to the brainstorming board….
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Sorry for being off topic again, but I have an update on my mom’s cancer. She had her first oncology visit today and he scheduled her for surgery for the 12th at 7 am. It will be a total hysterectomy. We’ll see what happens after that. My younger brother will be picking me up around 5 so that IS can be there with her.
Now back to your regularly scheduled program.
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Yup, right there, Lydia.
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Wendell G,
What you went through was truly awful. I would certainly classify that kind of harassment as persecution. Given how cruel people in our culture can sometimes be, I don’t doubt that this happens.
What bugs me about DeYoung’s approach is that I’ve seen an authoritarian ministry toss out the P card when people began speaking about their abusive experiences with it. In many of the spiritual abuse situations that this blog analyzes we’ve seen the same thing. DeYoung cares nothing about the SGM victims that were truly persecuted, but he’ll consider himself persecuted if anyone tries to call him on that. This really is a situation of crying “wolf” too many times. People rightfully roll their eyes at DeYoung’s agenda. Those people then are skeptical when someone, such as yourself, has a genuine conflict. I wish TGC would knock it off.
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“The Founders knew full well it was just a question of time before it would be on the block to the highest bidder, so they did their best to minimize the potential damage and should be applauded for it. Glad you mentioned Clinton and Obama! ”
Who both had George Soros (hardly anybody richer) who has done great harm to third world country’s currencies. There are tons of rich liberals.
Well, the Founders lost because now Obama tells me who my doctor can be through the health plan I am forced into. (My state bought in) And what freedom! The IRS is now attached to my health care. That is minimizing damage? Perhaps to those who do not value their individual liberties and choices. Not to mention the Treasury dept says I owed them 400 bucks but won’t tell me anything about it. I had no idea. Wonder what it is? They just took it out of my refund. Have you ever tried to call the Treasury Dept? I feel like I am in the USSR.
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Ok, because I label myself as a Christian, I cannot say the word “baptism” in any other non-Christian context that the dictionary provides without it meaning something derogatory? Help me understand this.
I’m trying to figure out if this is just a Sarah Palin thang or would you (collective you) treat me the same way and chew me out for sacrilege?
I’m trying to think of another example and the only thing I can come up with is “holy cow” which is said a lot around these parts. I’m sure someone would get all miffed about that because only God is holy. Is it on the same lines as that? Oh, here’s another: I’ve heard people get upset when others use the word “awesome” in a flippant manner because only God is awesome.
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I think what what TGC might describe as persecution is different than mine. They talk about being persecuted by non-believers. I think many of us have been persecuted by “Christians” in our own churches. They might laugh that one off.
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“. If she was someone who did not trade on her faith and broadcast her faith continually, it wouldn’t have touched most people. But she sells herself as a Christian; therefore her word usage is offensive.”
You remember the first Obama campaign? He tried to do the same with his “faith” until too many people started checking out Jeremiah Wright’s sermons where he went to church for 20 years. Then he dropped that real quick and poof! all of Wright’s “hating whitey” sermons disappeared from the internet. But I got to hear a couple of them before the election. Nasty stuff. Not Christian at all. The left is as bad as the right. Which is why I have no party.
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David:
Thanks for your comment. I wonder if she wrote her speech or had a speech writer?
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Jackie C,
You may be right. Perhaps it’s just the rough and tumble of public discourse. It’s just that it seems to me that when great umbrage is directed at a woman over what does not appear to me to be that big a deal, and when the umbrage emanates from quarters that are not exactly known for valuing women, it comes across as rather nefarious. Perhaps my perceptions a colored by the fact that there are so many who are so quick to characterize women, and not just Sarah Palin, as, for example, vamps.
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wftt2′
I hope all goes well.
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Muff, the whole point is Palin did NOT have the establishment behind her. The big money guys blew her off after the campaign. Why do you think she did not fight in Alaska? Money. She stood no chance. They despised her. But she was popular enough afterwards to make bank off of it. But I doubt seriously you will see the big money guys back her unless she wins a primary. She comes off as a loose cannon and is not easily beholden. that is what McCain campaign had a problem with. Not something they like. Their attitude is– we brought you here and you owe us.
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“! think what what TGC might describe as persecution is different than mine. They talk about being persecuted by non-believers. I think many of us have been persecuted by “Christians” in our own churches. They might laugh that one off.”
Hmm. I have often wondered about this. Could we call the heavy burdens the Pharisees put on people “persecution”?
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ww2, Blessings to your mother from me. I pray for her courage and peace.
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“Ok, because I label myself as a Christian, I cannot say the word “baptism” in any other non-Christian context that the dictionary provides without it meaning something derogatory? Help me understand this.”
I used to say “my babies baptized me” with regurgitated milk all the time. If anyone had a problem with that then they take themselves way too seriously. Back then I was too sleep-deprived to care.
I think it’s in reference to waterboarding that makes it distasteful.
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Thank you friends. I worry about her. She’s 78 now and has been through so much already.
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BTDT said:
Well, I need something bigger than the normal bookmarks program that goes with a browser. I mean, think of who I have listed under Patriarchy. Some of the things I bookmark fit more than one category so I like this that I can put it one category/file, but also tag it. So, for example, Doug Phillips’ article on repentance that he posted the month before he publicly announced he was leaving Vision Forum (and is now scrubbed), I can tag it: Patriarchy, Vision Forum, Repentance, Clergy Abuse, False Teacher, Captain who Sunk His Ship, yada yada
This program also takes screen shots, and quotes, etc. There’s a short video here.
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WFTT2 – thanks for keeping us posted on your mother. Poor thing! I’ll be praying for her (and you).
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“I’m trying to think of another example and the only thing I can come up with is “holy cow” which is said a lot around these parts.”
LOL! (that might be offensive in a country where cows are sacred)
Ok, what about the use of “Gospel” in literature. Such as “that is the Gospel truth”. For that matter what about love, grace, truth, etc.
It could be because I don’t view sacraments the same way Joe does as a Calvinist. I do not see them as any sort of a means of grace, so to speak.. Only symbolism and remembering. I do not even view baptism as a criteria or anything like that. I do think it is best and a good thing for a believer. So, I don’t see it as insulting or degrading at all.
I mean, can we give up the word “grace” so easily in our daily vocab? Think of the implications. No– “gracious!” as my mum used to say.
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“Thank you friends. I worry about her. She’s 78 now and has been through so much already.”
Wow, that is major surgery for her age. I will pray for her strength, too.
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“The official reasons were made up, but it was after he saw me carrying a Bible into my office so I could read it on breaks.”
Wendall, This happens all the time here. Teachers are never told NOT to bring one in to read during downtime but if they do, they can feel the pressure. Automatically it is assumed they are evangelizing in the classroom. And then they are watched closely. To one I suggested she put it on her ipad but the problem with that is you have to lock those things up. Everything in public school is stolen here. Even glasses sitting on a desk. No one wants to steal a bible. (I had my car broken into once while parked at a public school and they stole my bookbag probably thinking it was a purse. Had my favorite study bible in it. LOL! Hope it was read)
But guess what? A Qur’an is ok. Even for students to have out!
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This is a total rabbit trail, but many kinds of Christians view the sacraments as more than simply memorials. As a Wesleyan I do view them as means of grace – and perhaps that DOES factor into the reaction I have to what Palin said, as one commenter suggested. But it’s definitely what she compared baptism TO that drew such strong reaction. So a baby “baptizing” his or mom with breast milk? Not troubling to me. The nurturing bond between mother and child is practically sacramental in its own right.
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Found this gem on Vision Forum’s Facebook page. Good grief. Never thought I would side with Sarah Palin over anyone. Her word salad notwithstanding, Vision Forum is really reaching on this one.
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I did not think these folks “believed” in “Neanderthals” they are just people who have arthritis or some such utter nonsense. I cant believe I am siding with Sarah Palin either.
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Palin notwithstanding, I had to laugh at this part of VF’s diatribe: “Has our perspective on this world, the role of woman, politics, commentary, and all other issues been shaped by this world or by the Word of God?”
I dunno, Doug. Can you provided the scripture reference making permissible your sexual abuse of your nanny? I can’t seem to find it in my Bible.
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Wendell G (30.1:46pm), thanks for answering re persecution.
A few observations:
First, jerks are jerks. Richard Dawkins is a jerk and would be whether he was an atheist or not. Doug Wilson is also a jerk, and would be whether he called himself a Christian or not. So I don’t count Richard Dawkin’s nastiness towards Christians as persecution by an atheist and I also don’t consider Wilson’s nastiness towards most US citizens as persecution by a Christian.
Jerks have picked on me for being Christian, but I was also picked for being female and for my stance on art. For these people, it wasn’t faith, sex or art stance that annoyed them but my existence; somehow I got in their way just by breathing. So it goes.
Second, the secular world is more rough&tumble than the Christian circles. There’s a chaos of ideas and beliefs floating around, and thus there’s a lot more loudness, crudeness and all around push/pull. For the most part, they don’t take themselves nearly as seriously as do those inside religious circles, and on the other hand, they just let “whatever” hang out and if you don’t like it, too bad for you. The rules of engagement are different.
Third, I have been in the secular world for most of my adult life, and there were only two not-jerk people who treated me with contempt simply because I believed in an “imaginary god”. I was taken aback by them. One of them I was able to corner, and found out that he’d been brought up in a very abusive Catholic home and couldn’t get over his rage. So I told him about my abuse and how I still kept my beliefs because I understood that God had nothing to do with it, etc, and after that, although he still thought I was an idiot, the venom drained away. It is useful to know where the hate comes from, because here in the US, it is most often not about Christ.
Fourth, Evangelicals need to understand that when they decided to engage in culture wars, they made enemies by declaring them so. People are not going to be told that they are enemies, fought against as enemies, and just sit there and take it. So when a group declares war and then gets warred upon, they cannot then claim persecution. That’s not how war works.
So it’s important that we sort out these elements before we make claims of persecution. It’s important because the claim itself creates fear and also because there are people in this world who are being treated horribly purely for claiming Christ and I don’t want to demean the definition for their sake.
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“Fourth, Evangelicals need to understand that when they decided to engage in culture wars, they made enemies by declaring them so.”
Very true. And it is the total opposite of what I Corin 5 teaches us.
I have been in the secular world my entire career. I love the rough and tumble, exchange of ideas, etc. I felt oppressed when doing training projects for mega churches. (I did not really understand the dynamics of that until later). There was no free exchange of ideas or disagreements that were fun like we had in my other world.
Most of the folks I worked with in the secular world were soft agnostics, a few pure athiests but we made a great team. Very few were Christians or even church goers. it was just the nature of the industry. And that is sad.
I was ribbed a bit but we were all equals and professionals. But I was never an “in your face” Christian. I believed that people could know and see me as fair, honest, just, etc. I remember some very funny convos about the origins of humans.
I say all this to make the point that those guys standing up there in pulpits who have made ministry a career know very little about being a believer in the real world. If we are honest, what can they teach us week after week since we have access to all the resources they have now. They have very little experience as believers in the real world of work.
An amusing thought: If Doug Wilson or John Piper had to get real jobs in the real world, would it not be hilarious if they had to report to a feminist Lesbian boss? I would buy tickets.
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I will say that since I have been doing projects in different public schools (had not been in one since I graduated high school!) so I don’t have to travel anymore, I have been blown away by the ingrained group think. There is very little free exchange of ideas and it is very oppressive and even young new teachers who are full of fire look beat up after the first year. It reminds me of the mega churches quite a bit where the people seem like stepford workers. it is very sad. Education should be a place of ideas, analyzing ideas, critical thinking, etc. But it is not in my neck of the woods.
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Lydia,
Aside from Joe Carter going bottom feeding in trying to critique Sarah Palin. Some contributors here were discussing Sacraments. I grew up Catholic and the Catholics have 7 Sacraments.
My wife grew up Baptist and the term Sacraments was not used or referenced. (and she went to Bible College).We did celebrate communion the 1st Sunday of each month here in the church she grew up in.
Calvinist apparently recognize 2 Sacraments Baptism and Communion.
The only time our former Hyper-Reformed Pastor celebrated Communion in our church was on Easter Sunday.
I was kind of hoping you may share if you are aware if there is a certain Reformed Sect that isolates Communion only on Easter Sunday and if the so-called Patriarch movement does the same thing.
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“I was kind of hoping you may share if you are aware if there is a certain Reformed Sect that isolates Communion only on Easter Sunday and if the so-called Patriarch movement does the same thing.”
I don’t really know about the implementation part of communion with certain Reformed/Patriarchal churches. I was thinking only of how they view them. I grew up SBC so, like your wife, I never heard the word used, either. We “remembered” the Cross with communion.
But within the last 8 years or so I have been paying close attention to what is going on, I have noticed a lot of SBC Reformed leaders writing about Baptism/Communion quite a bit. Why would Al Mohler need to write an article on infant baptism? That has never been an issue in the SBC before this past decade. Well, there is good reason. Mohler is basically a Presbyterian, IMO. When you consistently point your followers/students to Calvin, The Puritans, Edwards, etc as heros of the faith and the people to emulate, young guys are going to start seeing these things in a different way than is the traditional Baptist understanding. It causes chaos.
Here is an example: Barnabas Piper wrote an article a few years back on his blog about why he left the Baptist church. It was over infant baptism! That was a big enough issue for him to become a Presbyterian where they baptize babies.
Now, guess where he works now? For the SBC/Lifeway. That has offended some people because many Baptists identify with the Ana Baptists that gave their lives for adult believers baptism. And many were ” baptized a third time” by the Reformers that are being promoted as hero’s of the faith. So, did Barnabas change his views to land the cushy job at Lifeway? That is quite a nice salary he has and an important title about message content. So what is he going to teach? Who knows.
Another example. Most (MOST!) SBC churches have traditionally practiced open communion. That is changing rapidly thanks to the Reformed resurgence and it is discussed with vitriol on SBC pastor blogs all the time quite. Seriously? I find it straining at gnats and swallowing camels but it is how things are playing out.
Joe Carter works for the SBC/ELRC.
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Lydia, the minute we drop the political rhetoric I think we’d find much commonality between our world views. Let me begin by dropping mine and apologizing for getting too close to over the line. Wanting others to see from our point of view is a very human trait. Truth be told? I like Sarah Palin and I’m bettin’ that both of us could agree on marinades and charcoal grilled meats and fish. So much better to unite on the things that bind us together as humans rather than the stuff that divides no?
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Lydia,
A lot to grasp for sure. Infant baptism is also considered a Catholic Sacrament, then they celebrate Confirmation when Catholics reach an age old enough to accept and embrace Catholicism.
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Someone asked for another word like “baptism” that might be used secularly and religiously at the same time. Well, here’s one that has come up in our homeschool: calling a book that is NOT The Bible, a bible. For example, before kids, I worked as a software engineer. We had a “C++ bible” and a “Java bible”, etc. (C++ and Java are programming languages, just FYI.) We meant that it was the “go-to” book to learn about that language. I can’t remember what I was referring to at the time, but I called some other book (probably some reference book) a “bible,” something like, “Oh, that’s a good book about that. It’s considered the bible of blah.” You should have seen the looks on my kids’ faces. They were slightly offended until I explained the non-religious use of it.
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WRNS,
A software engineer here as well. I and my coworkers discussed being in the “holy war” between vi and emacs. That is just one of many holy wars that software engineers fight in amongst themselves.
But as to your example, the word “baptism” is in the Bible, but “bible” really is not. Scripture, yes, but Bible, no. I have never heard of “C++ Scripture.” But your point is still valid. We soft engineers do not use the term to discuss torture. We use our “bibles” to make this world a better place with well written code 🙂
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Have any of you seen The Railway Man, starring Colin Firth? It shows a British POW being tortured by water-boarding by his Japanese captors during WW2. It’s a very harrowing scene. Water-boarding is torture, period.
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Jackie C.
@12:20 April 30 you said:
“I give more weight to the UN Commission on Human Rights than to your opinion”
Really? Iran is part of the UN Commission on Human Rights. I give no credence to the UN.
The reason that I mention that I was in the military, is because there are Christians and patriots in the military that think the way that I do, for the most part. I served under Ronald Reagan, who invoked God more than any president since him.
In addition, the Guatemalan army is not the US Military, and therefore, there is no comparison.
Ed
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Wendell,
@12:47 pm April 30 you said:
“The name, Palin, invokes a great deal of hatred. Some people cannot avoid the ad hominem.”
My response:
John 15:18
If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Yep, they hated Palin long before the word baptism was used. That’s why all this talk and anger about her using the word is nothing but a side show. I love Christians with balls…especially the females. She’s got ’em. She is not afraid of what people think of her.
Ed
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lydiasellerofpurple,
You had said:
“Hmm. I have often wondered about this. Could we call the heavy burdens the Pharisees put on people “persecution”?”
No, because it is only persecution at the name of Jesus. Once the gospel of Jesus began being preached, that is when persecution began. It began because Jews were converting to Jesus.
Proclaim Jesus=persecution. Proclaim ideology=false sense of persecution
Ed
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“Really? Iran is part of the UN Commission on Human Rights. I give no credence to the UN.”
I know, Ed. This is what I will never understand. As bad as we get things here in the US at least we have made some strides in the human rights areas of race, religion and women. But trusting country’s like Iran over the US for human rights–equality and justice? I don’t get it. It makes no sense to me.
But this is the thinking in many liberal circles these days. It is why I do not trust them when it comes to protecting innocents. It goes like this: Our Waterboarding terrorists bad. Subjugation of women, promoting terrorism and hating Jews– understandable? That is how the whole UN situation plays out.
We have a better chance of real justice with the UN? I think not. As a woman I am offended by that thought.
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David C
You had said:
“But as to your example, the word “baptism” is in the Bible, but “bible” really is not. ”
My response:
Actually yes, the word Bible is in the Bible.
It comes from the Greek word “Biblos”, and that is Strongs Concordance Greek ref #976. Associated with that reference is #975, and #974.
It’s primary meaning is “A sheet, or scroll of writing”. The English word in the Bible (KJV) is simply, “book”.
We get the word Bible from the Greek word biblos, book.
Ed
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“Water-boarding is torture, period.”
What would you call attacks on innocent people? We are talking about people who strap on bombs to kill innocent people and fly airplanes into buildings killing 3000. How quickly we forget they have not given up.
It is a horrible tightrope we must walk to protect innocents. There is always the danger we become like our enemy which is what happened at Abu Gharib. But, unlike those who want to kill innocents, we punished them when it became public.
At the very least the person gets to live which the innocents did not. So who has better ideas of how to get information to prevent more innocent people from being killed?
This thinking is the same foundational thinking of the evangelicals who pack the courtroom begging the judge to be lenient in sentencing the child molester from their church. The victims are right there watching the whole thing. They think they are being pious and look loving. They are insulting the victims and helping to set the perp free sooner to victimize more children.
I just do not get it. Why is so few people care about the innocents? You konw, they don’t have to be waterboarded. They could TALK.
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lydiasellerofpurple,
“Our Waterboarding terrorists bad. Subjugation of women, promoting terrorism and hating Jews– understandable? That is how the whole UN situation plays out.”
My response:
Yep, and all the problems in the world is the fault of the United States, too? So, since Obama went on an apology tour, what changed? Red lines not meaning anything at all. I think the UN is satisfied with that.
Ed
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“No, because it is only persecution at the name of Jesus. Once the gospel of Jesus began being preached, that is when persecution began. It began because Jews were converting to Jesus.”
I understand where you are coming from. I was looking at the word in a different way based upon Wendall’s view.
I do think that Christians CAN be “persecuted” (defined in the broad sense as Wendall was using it) by Christian leaders who claim the name of Jesus but use His name for doing wrong to people. It all depends on how we view that word…and it is an English word with a broad definition but there are disagreements when it is used in a Christian context. That is what I am musing about.
A drastic example would be Jim Jones and what led up to the koolaid. Another example would be telling a 3 year old to face her molester and forgive him because she is just as big of sinner as he is. The SGM way of persecuting innocents in the Name of Jesus. I also see this as a form of blaspheming. Attributing to God what is NOT from God. It is one of the commandments about Not taking His Name in Vain.
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lydiasellerofpurple,
“What would you call attacks on innocent people? We are talking about people who strap on bombs to kill innocent people and fly airplanes into buildings killing 3000. How quickly we forget they have not given up. ”
Some have suggested that we forgive them and love those who are not even sorry for what they have done…without justice. Love our enemies, right? All the while another plot in the making. We are just going to have to take it…because we love them, right? The wisdom of some never ceases to amuse me.
Ed
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lydiasellerofpurple,
Since I’ve gotten into the christendom debates, at least here in the United States, I see so much more Christian persecuting Christian than I do unbelievers persecuting Christians. They (the Christians) really have no problem with the pagans, etc., but will name call other believers as heretics, etc., who, by the way, would get burned at the stake. I’m sure that the pagans who lived amongst them laughed at Christians for their barbaric thought processes of spreading the good news. The pagans probably said, “Well, if that is good news, I don’t want it.”
Ed
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Patrice, I have read your response several times re: persecution and honestly it strikes me as a bit condescending and minimizing of the problem. Persecution is an all encompassing term as forms of persecution vary widely in intensity. It often starts with the small stuff like making fun of a person because of their faith or making a hiring/firing decision based upon that. When it becomes more organized and state sponsored, it becomes more widespread and serious.
You seem to imply (forgive me if I am wrong) that I have been insulated from the “real” world. Yes, I have been a pastor, but I have always been bi-vocational. I have worked in the secular world for over 40 years and have experienced all kinds of jerks. I have also witnessed harassment of Christians disguised as mocking and joking and as I mentioned before, have almost lost my job because a higher up happened to see my Bible. For the last 17 or so years, I have worked in libraries (hardly friendly to anyone conservative). I have a Master of Science in Information Science and I have worked with many fine people, both Christian and non. I don’t know how much you know about the library world, but it is dominated by liberal secularists who claim neutrality, but in reality are not neutral when it comes to religion. Sometimes it shows overtly, but at other times, it is more covert as in deciding not to acquire a book because it is Christian, yet books on Islam or atheism are just fine. Rather than have a balance, they intentionally denigrate one religion over another. So, I understand the rough and tumble world. I have and continue to live in it.
Yes, in most cases, building a relationship and showing people that you aren’t the bogey man often disarms them and opens the door to dialogue. That is my preferred method; however, I reject the idea that a large number of Christians are bringing persecution on to themselves by engaging the world or “making enemies” of the world. That is blame shifting at its finest. It is like telling an abused woman that she must have brought on the abuse! I am sure that this is not your intent, but that is how it comes across.
So, let me ask you this. What of the 6 year old who was recently told she could not read her Bible at lunch? What part of the culture war was she engaged in? How did she make an enemy of the public school worker? Is that persecution? I would say yes, but not of the most extreme form (though it is reprehensible to do this to a 6 year old). Apparently, you would say no.
What about students who have been told that they cannot write essays about Jesus being the most important person in their lives? Were they actively making enemies by being believers?
Just last week, it was revealed that a young man was trying to get into a specialized program in a community college. During his interview, he was asked what was most important in his life and he answered “God”. He was rejected and the second major reason for his rejection was that he dared mention that in his interview. While the first reason given was that there were some others with higher grades, this college official used 3 times as many lines to state that his expression of faith made him lose points. In other words, he was told that if he was a Christian and was willing to admit it, he was not welcome. Is that persecution? Most definitely, but I am not sure you would see it that way.
In the early 90’s, a Roman Catholic mass in New York was interrupted by members of a homosexual activist group (ACT-UP). They invaded the church and started to harass the parishioners. They destroyed property, spit on people, and threw used condoms into the congregation. All of this was done with no evidence that anyone in the congregation, nor the priests had engaged in any culture wars. They were attacked because of their faith and the teachings of the RC church. I hope that you would at least find that as persecution!
And no, I am not one of those who feels that we should be immune from it. Jesus promised that His followers would be persecuted. Peter told us to rejoice in the various trials that we would face for our faith. In fact, I think one of the worst things that happened to the church was when Constantine made Christianity the official religion and ended Roman persecution of the church. Under the persecutions of Diocletian, Caligula, Nero and others, the wheat was certainly separated from the chaff!
I have read much of persecution in Asia, the former USSR, Europe, South America and other places. Much of what I have read about the early days of persecution in those places are being mirrored here.
I have a personal friend who is a first generation Chinese immigrant. She grew up under the early days of persecution just after the communist revolution. Her mother was imprisoned and she and her sister were homeless in China. She has told me over and over again that the early stages of persecution there are happening here. She has lived it and knows it intimately. It is just not recognized as such yet because it has not had widespread state sponsorship, but according to her, it will soon follow if things don’t change.
On the other hand, I don’t believe that Christians should be denigrated for standing up against the culture for sincerely held beliefs. Yes, some use less than ideal methods, but they should not be expected to just sit in the pews and mind their own business. We are to engage the culture, not in a hateful manner, but as Paul did with the philosophers at Mars Hill, by showing them a better way.
I think most evangelicals (who seem to be the favorite whipping boy) are of the same mind. It is a few high profile, very vocal personalities that seem to elevate the rhetoric and cause people to assume that the average Joe, evangelical pew sitter, is the same way. They aren’t. Most just want to live quiet lives, support their families and worship God in peace.
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Ed said:
Like this little gem I got this morning, Ed?
The first tweet that started the whole thing is here. It’s a tweet from Dee of The Wartburg Watch blog:
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“It is a few high profile, very vocal personalities that seem to elevate the rhetoric and cause people to assume that the average Joe, evangelical pew sitter, is the same way. They aren’t.”
Wendall, We give the secular world too much ammunition. Just look at the celebrity evangelicals who have rallied around CJ Mahaney which is about child molestations. So why do these guys have any credibility or followers after that? That is the big question that leads us to “what are we claiming to the secular world IS Christianity”. We must tell their followers: We don’t believe in your guru’s Jesus. They do not define Jesus for us. And then we shout it to the world and LIVE as the Kingdom now.
And then we have the issue of free speech. I am absolutely appalled at what is censored and how we censor politically incorrect speech that is demeaning and hateful. Are people thinking this through instead of having knee jerk reactions? From my reading around Christian blogs, the answer is no.
Allowing politically incorrect free speech allows us to analyze the issue in the public square. Without free speech, more group think and indoctrination goes on. It is already politically incorrect and racist to disagree with the leaders of this country. We are on the slope sliding head first.
I really think people are very short sighted on this issue in the name of some sort of totalitarian niceness. There will always be jerks, sadsacks and racist pigs. What scares me is how we start narrowing what is “correct” speech and what isn’t. I am chilled by how many people are willing to forgo liberty for what they perceive is being nice.
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JA, Isn’t Dustin a devotee of JD Hall? I think that explains it. He does not even make sense. “Molest”? They are such children. Please tell me he is not a pastor. Please.
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I think he is, Lydia. I scrolled through his tweets this morning to get a feel for who he is and what he stands for and he definitely was retweeting JD Hall. He does follow a mixed bag (Rachel Held Evans) and me, so I think he’s just trying to keep an eye on the “other” side.
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lydiasellerofpurple:
“This thinking is the same foundational thinking of the evangelicals who pack the courtroom begging the judge to be lenient in sentencing the child molester from their church. The victims are right there watching the whole thing. They think they are being pious and look loving. They are insulting the victims and helping to set the perp free sooner to victimize more children.”
Right, because calling water-boarding torture is THE EXACT SAME THING as excusing abusers! You are conflating two completely different issues. I have no wish to see leniency for terrorists, I’m British and we fought IRA terrorism for decades. I still wouldn’t ever find it acceptable for my government to use torture. I want terrorists tried and convicted under due process.
And none of this has anything to do with child abuse.
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JA,
Wow. According to dictionary.com there are three definitions to molest. The last two are related to sex. The first one is: to bother, interfere or annoy.
I don’t think anyone can do either of those things to a book. If I was making a guess, I would say that he really thinks that you are interfering with his bondage belief system, and it bothers him. He feels threatened of the truth being exposed, but is OK with genitals being exposed?
This is an example of a word (molest) being used incorrectly, and yet, they, the religious self righteous experts, cry blasphemy if Sarah Palin uses the word baptize. I always thought that the south believed in the “God and Guns” stuff, so I find it amazing that they are angry that she said this at an NRA rally. They should be cheering, not jeering. God and Guns!
Ed
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