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Well-known homeschooling moms Kelly Crawford and Stacy McDonald comment regarding the “victim” word with regard to the Lourdes Torres-Manteufel vs. Doug Phillips lawsuit.
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Doug Wilson comments as follows regarding Doug Phillips’s sexual sins against Lourdes Torres-Manteufel:
(Trigger warning for survivors of victimization by sexual abuse or assault, and/or spiritual abuse.) There has been a heated discussion at Doug Wilson’s blog on an article entitled Vice, Victims, and Vision Forum.
Wilson discusses why he thinks Lourdes Torres-Manteufel should not be called a “victim,” that it is prejudging the case to do so, especially because she was an adult when the sexual incidences occurred.
Here is this classic response from Wilson – someone who has no clue as to how sexual abuse victims respond:
But if his attentions were entirely unwelcome to her, and she was freaked out by the creepster, then we have to ask why she wasn’t down the road at the first opportunity — that night or the next morning — with Doug Phillips receiving notification of her opinion of what transpired via the sound of sirens. That’s not what happened, on anyone’s account, and so I don’t think we should identify her as a victim.
Presently there are 163 comments. I found the comments that affirmed Wilson’s stance repulsive – just as repulsive as this: The Real Doug Wilson Encouraged & Presided Over the Marriage of Serial Pedophile.
I think what was most infuriating to me were the comments from well-known women who are part of Christian Patriarchy Movement. Let’s start with Kelly Crawford. In a few days, she will be speaking fairly near me at a homeschooling conference. Look at the lineup of Patriarchs: Ken Ham, R.C. Sproul, Jr., Scott Brown, Israel Wayne, Marshall Foster. Doing a simple Google search of Doug Phillips’ name with any one of these men will yield multiple results and their connections together in “ministry” work.
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I couldn’t find much of a bio on Kelly. She is a homeschooling mom of 10. She is a speaker and blogger who once had Vision Forum affiliate ads on her blog’s sidebar. Let’s read what she has to say on Lourdes as “victim”:
Kelly Crawford
April 18, 2014 at 2:58 pm
And finally, I breathe a big sigh of “amen” for the first, that I’ve read, of real discernment over the situation, and a wise call to hold adults responsible instead of perpetuating a “victim” culture. [Emphasis added.]
Since the first pieces started popping up on the scandal, I’m saying, “why is she a victim?” We are talking, by the way, about a confident, assertive young woman and *nothing* like the mousy allusions I’ve read. Don’t ask me how I know.
“We cannot accuse Vision Forum of treating all women like little girls, and then turn around and treat all women as little girls who can’t be expected to say no to a cad at Vision Forum.” [JA note: This sentence she quotes is from Doug Wilson’s article.]
I can’t thank you enough for saying this.
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Here are two more comments on Doug Wilson’s article from another well-known woman in Christian Patriarchy Movement, Stacy McDonald. (Incidentally, this week her husband, Teaching Elder – another way of saying “pastor” in family-integrated churches – James McDonald has jumped on the popular defend-the-Patriarchy bandwagon with his own article, The “P” Word.)
Stacy McDonald
April 18, 2014 at 3:51 pm
Thank you, Pastor Wilson! You nailed it! I’ve tried to say the same thing and was accused of not having sympathy for the “victim,” which no one can prove she was at this point.
However, I absolutely DO have sympathy for the fact that she was used by a man in power – a man she had respected and revered. She was seduced into a sinful relationship by a “religious” man who represented godliness to her. I agree there is no excuse.
She said she was told that he would marry her. She said she was told that his wife would die soon and they could be together. Sickening. She said she was in love him. Why would these words have even been significant unless she felt deceived by his promises – deceived into going along with it in some way? And then realized it was never going to happen – she was being used.
Any time an insecure young woman is cajoled into a sexual relationship by a man – especially a married man, she is being used and taken advantage of. The impact is multiplied when “religion” is involved.
But, it happens all the time with men in the business world. If she was a 23-29-year old secretary for the CEO of some big corporation, it would be similar. Or perhaps an intern to the president…
That is part of the reason men are called to protect women, which makes this disgraceful thing all the more tragic.
I realize that the fact he was a Christian leader compounds the influence he had over her emotionally, but she still owns her own sin. And I still maintain that the truest victims here are his wife and children. [Emphasis added.]
And that says nothing of the public spectacle it’s become inside and outside the church or the smug satisfaction oozing from every anti-patriarchy blog out there.
Thank you again.
“By this deed you have given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme.” (2 Samuel 12:14)
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More from Stacy McDonald:
April 19, 2014 at 9:33 am
I guess I’m confused as to how asking for $10 million dollars from him and his victimized family is a cry for help. And, if she had not gone to the media, but instead sought Christian arbitration; and, if her family, her church, and the people in her community all wound up believing her, wouldn’t that be enough? Besides, “everyone” is not going to believe her anyway.
I’m not saying there shouldn’t be some sort of restitution if her claims are proven true. But the way it is being handled is causing God’s name to be slandered among the heathen (and the church).
I think if it were me, trying the case in the court of public opinion would hardly be satisfying anyway. Everything decently and in order. Isn’t that part of why we are Presbyterian? This is chaos.
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Ok, a lot of people reading articles here at Spiritual Sounding Board are connected with the Torres-Manteufel versus Phillips lawsuit. This issue of how the public views Lourdes Torres-Manteufel is important.
These two ladies – Kelly Crawford and Stacy McDonald – are highly respected in Christian Homeschooling networks, so people who adhere to Patriarchy will be inclined to follow their voices.
- What are your thoughts on their words?
- What do you see in their comments?
- Is Patriarchy a safe environment for women who’ve been sexually violated?
Try putting yourself in Lourdes’ shoes and consider taking a look at the entire Doug Wilson article for yourself – Vice, Victims, and Vision Forum – and the range of comments there. (Repeat: Trigger warning for survivors of abuse.) What words of support and encouragement would you have for Lourdes here, in response to the comments about her there?
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
Ok, I’ve got all the links up to this one, Diane. (http://www.tomandrodna.com/CR_2005_02027/)
I think it might be easier for me if you can compile them in one e-mail for me. (That way it won’t clutter up this important comment thread, too.) I am extremely limited in time lately (and will be sharing a bit about that soon). Thanks much!
ja
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“I was 21 before I finally told my parents that I had been molested by a family member. Why? Because, as victim, you take responsibility for what happened to you.”
WouldRatherNotSay, Your whole comment is excellent. I just noted this part, because I just heard that 66% of sexual abuse victims won’t even talk about it until they are adults.
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I find it interesting that both Kelly and Stacy were both so angry with the commenters on this blog that they came here ranting. They called those who comment here liars, crazy and even insinuated that those here who claim Christ are not actually Christians. Then one of them chastised us all for not caring enough about the family of Doug and the hardships they have been through, how odd. The person who has inflicted the hardship on Doug’s family is Doug and interestingly enough neither of these ladies have publicly expressed a fraction of the anger they displayed toward us yesterday toward him. Neither of them have publicly questioned his salvation as they did ours.
If Stacy was truly concerned about Doug’s family maybe she should publicly call him out for choosing to support his family on a house of cards built with lies, it has fallen and they are suffering and it’s all his fault. Had he found an honest way to make a living they would still have their livelihood. So Doug Philips bases his life on lies and abuse and Stacy and Kelly issue half-hearted “he was wrong” responses. We question them on Lourdes and they come out in angry rants filled with name calling and shaming. WOW!!! That is bizarre cult-like behavior, and neither of them see anything strange about it. They are so brainwashed that they don’t even question the fact that they are more angry at us for criticizing them then they are at Doug for all he has done over the course of at least 20 years. It’s sick!
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This is why we need to remove statute of limitations laws in all States.
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Julie Anne — April 23, 2014 @ 10:43 AM — “Brad, that sure looks like an article to me. I think we need to make it into a searchable article. There is just too much good information there to be hidden away in a comment. What say you? I can do it on the weekend.”
Okay, let’s be in touch. Actually, this is a new section to what I’ve already writing as the introduction to curriculum section on how to create a safe working environment for collaborating on the common good, and how NOT to allow toxic systems to get implanted or flourish. So I should have that article expanded by the weekend and we can see if it’s appropriate for here …
P.S. Could you also ask Cindy K to do a post/repost on her stuff about Bounded Choice and the work of Janja Lalich? The course of conversations across a wide range of social media seems to be headed toward the specific patterns and techniques used to entice people into totalistic systems, condition them to stay there, and prevent them from leaving there. So … perhaps some focus posts on those will help survivors and those who care about them in understanding why it’s so hard to recognize the entrapment that goes on, and so hard to say “no” when you’ve been in a system like this so deeply for so long …
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one thing that has been eating at me ALL day long is when Stacy McD (on DW blog), in her self- righteous, smug attitude says (in regards to the DP case): “if only they were Reformed Presbyterian, than this wouldn’t be like this (chaos)”. I am absolutely FLOORED at the self righteousness RP to think that either they could handle it better or that these types of things do not happen in the RP denomination. These links and articles concerning Moscow, ID (THE SAME DENOMINATION AS STACY & KELLY) are where a Reformed Presbyterian not only harbored not one but TWO pedophiles and abusers but in the case of Jamin Wight, also had ostracized his victim and excommunicated her………..SERIOUSLY???? (as Stacey MCD would say).
Can you say “Christians shooting their wounded?” I see this happening with Lourdes too…….unfortunately.
SO let me get this straight. They claim that Lourdes is not a victim and that she should have spoken up earlier and because she didn’t then she’s guilty, BUT you have TWO known se*ual abuse pedophiles and they are encouraged to marry women in their church and are given leniency????????
Also, from http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/18/the-real-doug-wilson-encouraged-presided-over-the-marriage-of-serial-pedophile/ DW is quoted as “covering up sins for a living” ugh SERIOUSLY???? right Stacy McD??
just absolutely sick. Why this man has a cult following like he does I will never know. We have had stark differing issues with him theologically and the sheer fact that he’s so arrogant, but this makes me want to throw up. I mean throw up.
I am also hearing rumors through FJ that Nancy Grace picked this up on her show in the last few days. SO it is getting National airtime………NOT enough but it’s getting exposure!
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“This is why we need to remove statute of limitations laws in all States.”
They could do it, too. There’s no reason why this can’t be treated the same way as murder and extend the statute, especially considering it’s the type of thing that just doesn’t come out for decades many times.
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Julie Anne … P.S. And maybe Marsha the Sociologist who has offered some immensely helpful commentary along the way. And there are others. Maybe a series like a sort of roving conference to help in identification of symptoms and sources and healing-oriented solutions.
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BTDT,
I didn’t tell anyone until I was in my mid 30’s.
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Julie Anne,
It appears that all the comments on Doug Wilson blog have disappeared, unless mu computer is acting crazy. What’s up with that I wonder?
http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/vice-victims-and-vision-forum.html#comments
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Taunya,
The last people to see they are in a cult are those who get fame and money from the cult whether it is speaking at conferences, being a minister, selling books, etc. They have a vested interest in perpetuating the cult. Everything then hinges around saving and building the “brand” and “image”.
Their former hero, Doug Phillips, trashed the foundational tenant of Patriarchy which is the premise that “men protect women”. Poor Kelly is almost losing her mind trying to hold on to that one. I mean, how much easier to explain away financial scandal, the lawsuits, etc in Doug’s past. But how do you hold on to “created order with men protecting women as their authority” when your most famous Patriarchal celeb was grooming a young girl to sexually objectify that he was to “protect” as her “authority”? Even promising to marry her when his wife “dies young”. (I agree with an earlier commenter that DP was most likely viewing this all through the OT lens of Polygamy which unfortunately for him, is illegal. There is a lot of Mormonistic influence in Patriarchy. We have seen it on CBMW)
All they can say is “he was wrong and that is not Patriarchy” and try to deflect attention onto questioning the victims role in it. Or suggest someone here is mentally ill which in Stacey’s world means all comments here are moot. That is the patriarchal bubble speaking. It does not work so well outside the bubble.
But it really IS patriarchy because it is the PERFECT environment for grooming and objectifying women. They even have God as a façade to perpetuate evil that the secular Neanderthal/predators don’t have. Few have mentioned how obligated Lourdes must have felt when DP took her family in. The perfect grooming scenario.
BTW: Doug Wilson reminds me of Marlon Brando’s character in the film, Apocalypse Now, for some reason. Weird.
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(Technical note: I don’t know if it’s my browser (Firefox) or display driver or what, but when I read on this blog there are heavy, distracting, seemingly randomly placed horizontal blue lines (same as the background color to either side of the text block) that cover up some of the words, making reading difficult. Just thought I’d mention it. Thanks for the discussion.)
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Teresa N.: Julie Anne,
It appears that all the comments on Doug Wilson blog have disappeared, unless mu computer is acting crazy. What’s up with that I wonder?
http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/vice-victims-and-vision-forum.html#comments
You’re right. It says “191 comments” or something like that, but displays none of them.
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“It appears that all the comments on Doug Wilson blog have disappeared, unless mu computer is acting crazy. What’s up with that I wonder?”
My computer has whatever your computer has. No comments. What was DW’s smug statement about “Comments are moderated thusly” blah, blah, blah?
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Brenda, go ahead and use Brenda R. I’ve changed all of the other ones except your last comment. I’ll change that when I get home.
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Whoa. Comments removed? Who does that. Ok. I’m gone for 3 hrs. Have fun!
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Don’t know if the comments were removed, or merely hidden. I don’t really understand how blogs work.
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Thank you, JA, appreciate it.
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I was just getting into commenting over there, bummer….lol
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There back…..the comments on DW blog…..that was strange.
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It appears that all the comments on Doug Wilson blog have disappeared, unless mu computer is acting crazy. What’s up with that I wonder?
http://dougwils.com/s7-engaging-the-culture/vice-victims-and-vision-forum.html#comments
You’re right. It says “191 comments” or something like that, but displays none of them.
“Birds of a feather”…………..kind of like Dougie boy (Phillips) hiding HIS comments on his fb regarding the lawsuit………..cut of the same mold……..I tell ya!
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Julie Anne, I am here to THANK YOU for the judicious edit of a post of mine.
I was going to send you a private message, but I decided to come right out & admit that I lose my temper when I hear that sort of blathering on by folks who will “pass by on the other side” rather than show any human kindness.
God bless all here. (That includes the folks who raise my blood pressure. At least, I am trying to bless them, too. It’s not going real well, but I’m trying……..).
JA note: no problem – I get it. When I get fuming, I call people and let them hear an earful.
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Brad/futurist guy,
Could you also ask Cindy K to do a post/repost on her stuff about Bounded Choice and the work of Janja Lalich?
I have been working on a post for a week, but because of my own experiences, I keep finding myself turning a blog post into a journal entry.
I was sexually abused as a young child while bereaved over two deaths of close family friends. I made a choice at age 9, for a host of complicated reasons, to keep my mouth shut about the matter until after the death of my abuser. Though I have largely desensitized to the experience, upon reading Lourdes/Gibbs petition to the Bexar County Court (a courthouse I’ve visited many times while living there), seeing the matters in pixel/print opened up a new level of consideration of my own experience that I’d not explored before. I could not have done what Lourdes has had the courage to do.
It was expressly for young women exactly like her that I publicly challenged patriarchy — Phillips in particular. It is also why I helped to see Hillary McFarland’s book, Quivering Daughters, come to press to expose some of the hidden problems of the ugly underbelly of the Quiverfull/Patriarchy system. And believe me — we did not print the more sensational, corroborated, and well documented personal accounts that could have been included in the book. Sorting through that material was so difficult and personal, that’s why we procured an editor — a theonomist who had compassion and expert knowledge about the issue.
Needless to say, I’m developing a post that SSB is welcome to host that I hope will be healing for many. Perhaps you could help me edit it since I keep getting stuck in my own personal junk? The process has been slow as I write and find myself sorting through residual baggage that I didn’t know was there — the idea of what perhaps should have been done in my own case but was actually a bounded choice — like the one Lourdes faced.
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Hi Cindy K … yes, I can find time to fit in editing your piece, whether it ends up on SSB or not. Have Julie Anne connect us and we can figure things out from there. And thanks again for your many contributions to the comment threads here!
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“The process has been slow as I write and find myself sorting through residual baggage that I didn’t know was there — the idea of what perhaps should have been done in my own case but was actually a bounded choice — like the one Lourdes faced.”
I’m so sorry, Cindy. Lourdes struggle seems to be affecting people deeply. I wish you the best.
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Brad, thanks for thinking of me. Would be happy to help if I can.
On another note, I have to stop reading the Wilson thread; my blood pressure is going sky high. Someone mentioned Wilson’s role in Natalie’s case and he said the facts were wrong but he can’t explain further because of pastoral confidences. He was Natalie’s pastor too but see how he uses sly hints to discredit her? Well, you know what? If he did explain, I wouldn’t believe him because his public actions show that he doesn’t care about victims and his writing shows that his thinking about sex and abuse is distorted.
In what world is it okay for a 24 year old man to have sexual contact with a 14 year old? Not mine. Natalie’s abuser was convicted and sentenced, albeit too lightly. That is all I need to know.
Oh and here’s some hypocrisy for you. The judge said that, in mitigation, the 24 year old was immature, having been sheltered by homeschooling. Apparently that was fine with Wilson. A 23 year old Lourdes was mature enough to know better than to allow herself to be abused, however.
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Marsha said: Oh and here’s some hypocrisy for you. The judge said that, in mitigation, the 24 year old was immature, having been sheltered by homeschooling. Apparently that was fine with Wilson. A 23 year old Lourdes was mature enough to know better than to allow herself to be abused, however.
That’s EXACTLY what I was trying to point out earlier………when the Queen Bees came along. It also puts a whole new spin on it when you see how HYPER-patriarchy views the difference between men, women & their roles, especially in extreme circles.
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WouldRatherNotSay,
I appreciate you mentioning an after school special. I was well into adulthood when I watched one that was so much like my date rape saga. Why did it take the ‘secular’ media world to teach me more what Jesus is like. What kept me in such silent chains was that I did not see myself as a victim because of all this Christianese condemn the victim lingo and having a victim mentality is wrong talk. It wasn’t until I could actually go through the agonizing awakening of the fact that I really was a victim, and that I did not have as much control over the situation that I was programmed to believe and had failed that I could start to heal. Admitting that we have been victimized is humiliating. We want to think that we could have stopped it if we really wanted to. No one likes to admit weakness. What Kelly and Stacy say is actually backwards to the reality of why victims don’t speak earlier. I even remember my own first thoughts of minimizing my experience while I was watching the after school special and came to realize how cruel I was then being to minimize the victim in the story. If I minimize her I minimize me, thinking it will cause less pain, but in reality it’s like minimizing a deep physical wound. That after school special was stinging medicine.
You know, even IF Lourdes had run and told after the first advance from her perp, that alone would still be scarring. I know, because I am also from ‘almost’ horrific ordeals like that as a teenager also where I was ‘saved’ in the nick of time, but I still feel violation when I think about those. My dad had a prison ministry and trusted ex-cons who had accepted Jesus and he would invite them into our home, sometimes to live for a while. That was not a good idea.
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Stacy still has ignored my questions/comments and posted a new article by her husband!!! What will he say that she hasn’t said? They think men are to protect women, but it has been men who have victimized young women. My head is spinning!
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Also on Wilson’s blog, the comments have come back up. Kelly and Stacy seem much happier over there!
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Zooey111. “God bless all here”
I think God has a sense of humor. Yesterday at women’s Bible Study I had been discussing with a leader about how to handle a situation with another leader who had been extremely rude to a newcomer (story was told to me at my hair salon). I told my leader friend the first name of this other leader and that I did not know who she was. My friend immediately said Oh yes we have had problems before like that and she has had trouble with her for four years and this needs to be addressed. The humorous part is within seconds of this discussion, our main leader (pastor’s wife) was reaching into the name basket to pull out a name for a door prize, she stops, walks over to my table and holds the basket for my friend to pick the name out and guess whose name she picked? Yup, the rude leader’s name. My friend said, that’s not the name I would have chosen. But I said but we bless our enemies. So, thank you for the reminder today because I was the one not feeling it and now I have some blessing feelings for Kelly and Stacy.
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“But, it happens all the time with men in the business world. If she was a 23-29-year old secretary for the CEO of some big corporation, it would be similar.
Oh my good gosh. As others have noticed, how clueless is this?
I work for a big corporation. We employees take mandatory training in preventing / reporting sexual harassment every single year. You bet your sweet life that what Phillips did to Lourdes would be considered sexual assault — not simply harassment — if it happened at any corporation, especially at a publicly owned one. It would not be tolerated for one nano-second — not because big corporations are so godly (yeah, right), but simply because they are scared witless of legal liability. Duhhh!
Re some of the other victim-blaming stuff coming from Wilson, Stacy, and Kelly: Words fail me. My jaw’s on the floor. Seriously.
BTW, Headless Unicorn Guy made a really astute observation about the “caring,” “compassionate” narcissist. Oh my gosh. I saw that dynamic at work in an abusive situation with a highly controlling boss. The “compassion” is as phony as a three-dollar bill: When the oh-so-concerned person wants something from you, s/he turns around and lays on the unrealistic, impossible demands, without the slightest hesitation or compunction.
And yes, abusive bosses — like other abusers — target the most sincerely conscientious, eager-to-please people. They seem to know by instinct who is radically vulnerable and easily manipulated and who isn’t. It’s amazing how that works!
Well, my lunch break’s over; gotta get back to work. Fascinating thread, y’all!
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BTDT,
I’m doing very well, but I’m having trouble writing and staying on target.
I really didn’t get through all of the personal baggage until I found a good therapist eight years ago. We dug through the muck. What has resurfaced in the past year has been the idea of what should have been done ideally. Over the summer, when talking to Cathy Harris about some of her history, I asked her about what the likelihood was that my abuser had done this to others. From my own reading, it is likely that he did, but I don’t know that I’m unbiased enough to even think about it much. She has a masters in forensic nursing from U of Penn and worked for the FBI’s crimes against children unit. She honestly told me that it was more likely than not that the man had abused other girls. It was a consideration that I’d not been able to really think about before — in light of the other heaviness of the entire experience and what it has done within my family and my own life and health.
Now, a few months after having that sobering conversation with Cathy, I read Lourdes’ petition — with all of the specifics. It started me thinking about what my own petition should have read, had there been one if I’d believed that I would have found support from my family. It would have devastated us further, and I don’t believe we functioned that well to begin with. I now have to live with the idea that my silence likely put others at risk. I don’t fault myself for any of it for I did what I did with the best of intentions and even that took a heavy toll on my life. But there is a desire for what should have ideally happened in my own case, and I have to live graciously with that. It is just sad from every angle, however. I found myself grieving the loss of what might have been or should have been — yet again. That’s slowed me down in a way that I didn’t anticipate.
What I have an opportunity to do now is help support those who might find themselves in a similar situation, and I’m well prepared to do that at this point.
God has been very good to me through the process, and I’ve been blessed to have a wonderful counselor. A music major graduate from Moody in the 60s, she returned to school after raising her kids. I was connected with her by the director of a Christian (clinical) counseling group because of her experience working with traumatized women and children. I think that it makes for a tremendous testimony of healing, for I was quite sick with PTSD, and it wasn’t for lack of trying to find help in the Church or through Biblical means. I’ve gone on 30 day fasts and pilgrimages and chased “every spout where the glory comes out” to no avail of true healing. But I found tremendous help with the counselor who helped me find true, lasting health. I still have plenty to work on, for I still carry the long term effects of dysfunction and still have unique struggles like most people do. But I am not debilitated and in a constant state of anxious torment, weeping at every altar call for 40 years, begging for God’s deliverance and lasting change. It came to me through clinical help.
A blessing that I didn’t seek when I moved from Michigan a year ago came in two separate blessings from this counselor — ones I didn’t even hope for or seek from her which make them all the more precious. Twice, during our last two sessions at about this time last year, she told me that she believed that I was ready for anything I wanted to undertake in life because of the tremendous healing I’ve experienced and manifested. That includes working in mental health which she thought was an excellent choice for me, living out 2 Corinthians 1 by offering to others the comfort that I’d received myself through those who offered themselves to the Great Physician to carry out His work. I can’t think of a better ending to the story and could ask for nothing better.
Soli Deo gloria!
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@NotSurprised:
Same as it ever was:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_censorship_of_images
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oy and oy……….Doug Wilson is back up…….his comments are back up and he’s up with a new VF article……….sigh
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Cindy, I have no doubt that you will succeed at anything you decide to do. I just want to say that you are already a tremendous blessing to many people.
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Awwww Cindy K, your last post was like nice cold water to my thirsty soul. Most of my family and friends can’t understand why I spend so much time online, but do they want to talk about this stuff? The internet has been such a blessing for connecting us all. And thanks again JA for hosting.
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Patti and Zooey,
You’ve brought up a tremendous point about blessing.
I like to think of this analogy when talking about those who have been in high demand, spiritually abusive environments. When you are in those worlds, they ladle poison down your throat. You marinate in perfectionism and the environment that you are elite, and leaders are among the most elite who are protected. You have to suppress any conscience of your own in order to meld with the group and bury it to remain a part of it. You have to parrot their rhetoric and dogma to survive, or they throw you and your eternal soul away.
Consider that when you are filled with this poison for so long, there is little else that you can offer anyone. What generally happens when a person eats rotten meat or drinks a poison? They vomit violently and defecate profusely, and getting rid of it is an ugly process. Some have a lot of discomfort immediately. Others are like Typhoid Marys who never get that notably ill themselves but manage to transmit the trouble to others. Bitter and sweet water don’t come from the same source either.
So when there is pushback in response to challenging ideas — from either a devoted leader in a high demand group or when someone is starting to process their own high demand discomfort and are on their way out — it’s a sign that the message has been effective. We’re not wrestling against flesh and blood (or Typhoid). It’s a war against ideas and torment. Taunya has been a trooper in going through this process as she’s transitioned out of her bondage, and that happens in stages for most people as it has for her. She honored her doubts as God’s precious gift of discernment to her, but the process of getting out is hard and painful.
I’m definitely not a any fan of Nietzsche, but I like his statement about looking into the abyss and finding that the abyss looks back into you. (I think it’s more the light of truth and holiness looking into a person — a process of fear and trembling.) That gets ugly and messy. When I get caught in the emotion of that process, I remember to have compassion, for this is really a positive sign. It means our salt still has great savor — just as it should. It’s doing what you would expect that salt to do. Pure salt burns flesh. But that’s what we Christians are supposed to be doing every day.
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I am so upset by all of this patriarchy stuff. It brings back a tsunami of repressed memories that had been buried for 52 years, until I finally told my story a few months ago. I can only label it as a form of patriarchy because of the attitudes of my grandmother, who raised me, and how she ran her home. Males were everything, and could do no wrong. Females existed to serve males and to be silent. Everything was my fault since I was only a female. I bet the “Queen Bees” would also say it was my own fault when my older brother woke me up from a nap and molested me when I was only 4 years old. I must have asked for it, huh? I suppose I should have repented. After all, my grandmother blamed it on me and beat the daylights out of me for letting my brother do those things to me. That’s when the self-harm and self-mutilation began. I must be worthless. I’m only a female. Expendable.
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Goodness! Missing words, verb tense changes, and some subject verb disagreement in that last comment. Oy! I think the point comes across, though. 😉
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I don’t know how anyone can bring up their abuse in court or to their abuser. I can only mention it here because I am anonymous and I know that noone in my family will see it. You guys are extremely brave.
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A patriarchy queen bee equates feet that wander far from home (the prostitute in Proverbs) with the story of Dinah and her rape. It is why she will not allow her older daughters to be unsupervised. Can’t be without that male covering. And a queen bee once looked into sending a daughter to Hephzibah House. The proprietors there taught that molested children did have flawed and impure souls that solicited sexual abuse. Patti Williams claimed that she knew that she could sexually entice men at age five. Ron Williams preached often about the soul of the strange woman (the KJV language for prostitute as transliterated from Hebrew in Proverbs). Little molested girls were “strange women” who were the first cause in the chain of events that resulted in their own abuse. They are like Dinah who really must have wanted to be raped all along. Bill Gothard preaches his version of this which he calls the “power of crying out.”
I don’t think that patriarchy will turn those ideas over because of Phillips’ scandal. The fault always falls to “strumpet-child”. Some whores are 4 years old, and some are 21. This is the mentality we’re talking about. And spiritual abuse is their norm — God’s highest and best for the Body of Christ.
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waitingforthetrumpet2,
Oh, no your not worthless. I relate so much to your story. I am the youngest of 12 children and I too was molested by my oldest brother when I was three and I was molested by other brother as well, it was a family curse. I never told until in my early twenties. I developed an eating disorder trying to deal with the anguish of the abuse and nearly killed myself in the meantime. My mother never believed me until she heard it straight from the horses mouth (my brothers mouth) and it was wonderful for me because I no longer put the blame on me.
Stacy and kelli or anyone else can say what they want but it does not make it so….You stick with us, we got your back.
we are here to encourage you my friend……hugs!
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The yoke of Jesus is easy and His burden is light. We find rest for our souls in Him. Patriarchy has venom, perfectionism, image consciousness, blame, shame, and salvation by works. It is condemnation, and there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ.
It’s a free country, and people can choose to follow a religion of salvation by works through piety if they want to do so. I just wish that they would stop giving the rest of us a bad name. I readily admit that I don’t have what it takes to measure up in such a system.
I’d rather have the still waters and green pastures of the Good Shepherd who forsakes the 99 to go after the lost lamb. He rejoices in recovering them and doesn’t scold them for wandering off. We wounded bring out the best in Him. He is strong and remarkable when we are weak. His eyes look to and fro over the earth, seeking for one to whom He can show Himself strong. We wounded lambs get to be the beneficiaries of that love and power.
Waiting for the trumpet is worth the whole world to Him — a Savior who knows intimately how she feels and laid down His own life to give her wholeness. He does that for all of us.
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Cindy K,
Beautiful made me cry. My heart rejoices…….
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When I was in middle school, my parents and I figured out that my band director was trying to groom me for some sort of abuse. When we spoke up and demanded that he be fired immediately, the entire island was in an uproar. “He’s done this for years… your daughter is not that special…If I tell my story from 25 years ago I will be fired… He’s close to retirement, let him finish it out… no crime happened so what’s the big deal.” That is only the tip of the iceberg. He would not have been fired had my parents not threatened to call every single major new station in the state (and they had the contacts to do so). The following year we learned that he had been hired by a school 30 miles away and was up to his old tricks again. I hope and pray that he never advanced beyond grooming tactics. Every time a woman or girl speaks up, it is like climbing Mount Everest. She has to overcome so many detractors and obstacles to get to the top of the mountain to just share her story and yet there will still be many people who won’t believe her without physical evidence. My heart breaks for all of you who have shared bits and pieces of your abuse here on this blog. Please don’t let the mean girls or queen bees knock you off the mountain top. You are loved and worthy of love no matter what has happened to you. May this blog always continue to be a place of refuge and love for victims in all walks of life.
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I think someone here in this thread posted WWJD/did and what would he say/said.
My answer:
I know what he did not do.
He did not assault a woman when she let down her hair and wiped his feet.
He did not assault a woman when she sat listening at his feet.
He did not assault a woman with a reputation in town even though alone with her.
He did not assault children even though he beckoned them to himself.
What would Jesus say/said?
He said and would still say that it would be better for a millstone to be tied around an spiritual abuser’s neck and be tossed into the sea than to have offended one of the little ones.
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I guess I still need help. All the other counselors did was slap labels on me and others said basically to move on and get over it. PTSD, Adjustment Disorder, Depression, Anxiety, etc. Labels. Not a cure. So I’M repeat in cycles of memories, depression, repression and it never ends.
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And Cindy K, please don’t be too harsh with me on my grammar. I can change if I want to but don’t wanna.
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Patti, I meant me!
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My emotions get moving faster than my ability to process them well enough to get them out in words and then typed correctly.
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It’s ok Cindy. We all can read and speak computerese.
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I think we need to make something clear about Phillips here.
He is not a Christian. Christians are not perfect, and will sin after conversion it’s true. But lengthy, unrepentant sin should not exist in someone who has truly Christ. Doug engaged in this behavior for several years, was asked to stop by Lourdes, was called on the carpet SEVERAL times by the Torres family, his family and his church family. He did not admit to any wrongdoing until it was apparent that his livelihood was in jeopardy. That’s not repentance, that’s remorse for getting CAUGHT.
His pattern of deceit and heresy are more than enough to believe Lourdes over Doug. More than enough.
According to the Bible, this man should be treated as an unbeliever. We need to quit pretending that Doug Phillips is our fallen brother when he is actually a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He is a predator, a false teacher and a heathen. I would be very wary of receiving instruction from women like Stacy and Kelly, women who seem to think that Doug Phillips just needs Christian love and prayer, when Doug Phillips was clearly never an actual Christian in the first place.
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“I think someone here in this thread posted WWJD/did and what would he say/said”
Yes, that was Joel Frederick. I have no idea what he was getting at. Was he in favor of those posting on this board and his jaw dropping at the mentality of Ms Crawford and Ms McDonald? Or was his jaw dropping at those on this forum who questioned their framing of the debate and were blaming them for being insensitive and ignorant? I do not know.
I do know, however, that Jesus gave us a pretty fair idea of what He would do when he talked about one who harms those on the bottom, the “little ones” (and you’d have to think that maybe, just maybe, a 15 year old immigrant nanny who gets thrown into a highly patriarchal church system and household, both run by a serial abuser, who gets seduced by said abuser when she’s not much older than his children and has the things done to her that are described in the lawsuit, just might qualify as a “little one”).
Well Joel Frederick, be you friend or foe, I think Jesus told us what He’d do, we have some pretty good evidence He’d suggest to that person that they drown themselves. In light of that, I doubt He’d come down too hard on those who come to the defense of the ones that person harmed. Just an opinion for you.
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Sorry, Pattij553, I just now read your whole response, and I said almost exactly the same thing you did, but you said it first and it looks like you said it better.
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“I suspect some tsunami-level shockwaves are coming, with the lawsuit of Lourdes Torres-Manteufel versus Doug Phillips, Vision Forum, Inc., and Vision Forum Ministries…..
@Brad…I hope so. For years, I have warned people about this subculture within the homeschooling movement and in my church (Gothardism and later DP/VF). Am I gloating? No, I feel “vindicated.” There. I said it.
Lourdes, you go girl. Take him to the cleaners.
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“I’d rather have the still waters and green pastures of the Good Shepherd who forsakes the 99 to go after the lost lamb. He rejoices in recovering them and doesn’t scold them for wandering off. We wounded bring out the best in Him. He is strong and remarkable when we are weak. His eyes look to and fro over the earth, seeking for one to whom He can show Himself strong. We wounded lambs get to be the beneficiaries of that love and power.”
This brought tears to me, too.
You know, this is why I recommend those who have been abused by “Christians” or not listened to or believed by “Christians”— to only read the Gospels for 3 years. Jesus is NOTHING like these people. NOTHING.
And they twist Paul into the perfect Pharisee
I love how Patrice refers to it as sitting down on the park bench of her mind with God.
If you are wrestling with Who He is. Tell Him.
If you are angry , tell Him.
If you are scared, tell Him
Why not? He already knows.
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Cindy K I know that you meant yourself but since I think your posts are perfect I went into comparison mode. Thanks though.
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“He is not a Christian. Christians are not perfect, and will sin after conversion it’s true. But lengthy, unrepentant sin should not exist in someone who has truly Christ. Doug engaged in this behavior for several years, was asked to stop by Lourdes, was called on the carpet SEVERAL times by the Torres family, his family and his church family. He did not admit to any wrongdoing until it was apparent that his livelihood was in jeopardy. That’s not repentance, that’s remorse for getting CAUGHT.”
Bingo
Hebrews 10:
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
1 John 3
4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.”
It is about consistent deliberate sin. A lifestyle. That is what walking in the light/darkness is referring to in 1 John.
I really do believe that so much of Christendom has not been taught correctly about “sin”. It is not a sinless perfection OR totally evil dichotomy. We are confused because so many try to act like “sinning” is normal for Christians. And they tend to lump sin into one big category. Torres has not repented + Doug sinned = Both are sinners. There is little common sense when it comes to this topic because the subject of sin is a great manipulation technique by the gurus. It is why SGM told victims of child molestation they are sinners, too, just like the molester so forgive immediately. This is moral chaos. Even the Athiests see a huge problem with this. But not Christians?
Stacy: THAT—is “chaos”.
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I’m posting this comment here from Taunya again in case you missed it the first time around. I want it double-matted and framed on my comment wall, thank you very much.
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FYI Stacy McDonald is spelled without the “E” in Stacy. I’ve been trying to fix all of those and it’s not because I’m bored and have nothing better to do, but many people use the “find” feature when looking up key words in posts/comments. Since the article is about Stacy and Kelly, it would be helpful in that regard. Thanks much!
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TruthDetector, Oh but yours would get a better writing 101 grade, sorry Cindy K, I don’t mean to needle you, I’m picking on myself, really.
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That I love your voice, Truthdetector. When someone echoes someone else, it’s helpful to the overall group conversation. It also makes me think there are many more lurkers who are saying, “yea, what she said!.”
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Amen, Mandy! Your parents sound great, btw!
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Abuse is so complicated. First to have something done TO YOU, and then you have to come to the point of realizing that it wasn’t your fault. If you get to that point, then to make the choice of to tell or not to tell. There are so many hurdles that abuse survivors have to deal with. I’m glad you are commenting your story, even in your limited capacity here, loveoneanother. One baby step at a time and the nice thing is that YOU get make those decisions now.
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OnlyEleven – You did now. I’m very sorry to hear what you’ve gone through. You have a safe place here.
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My two cents….
Didn’t her brother work for duggie ? and perhaps her father ? Do her parents speak fluent english? If not, then perhaps they were misled in their beliefs. Her family lives in a mobile home (nothing wrong with that). duggie pretended to be nice to the family. My understanding of a molester/perpetrator situation is that fear and threats and guilt placed on the victim are a definite factor. ALSO…. at that time in her life, her idea of love was, in my view, not truly love at all. AND after reading what has happened to others who tried to deal with evil in this *church* especially women, I would imagine the thought of asking for help from the BCA *elders* to be quite intimidating. Somewhere I read where duggie would go after people who dared to leave BCA without his permission, attempting to ruin them in their new church and business endeavors…even if they moved out of state!
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I am among the silent 66%. Male babysitter, fellow church family, when I was around 11. I did not tell until I was in my 30s. Have never told father my father, probably never will.
Grew up in Plymouth Brethren chapels, and grew up to be a judgmental legalist.
Oh, and Stacy? I watched with great interest to see how you would engage with others in this thread. Oh that’s right, you didn’t come here to engage. Your last comment virtually shoved me off the fence. You are right about one thing though…I am nearly 56 years old and I am still SO. SCREWED. UP.
I totally agree with the statute of limitations never expiring for sexual assault. The thing that haunts me the most about not telling is knowing that I probably was not his only victim. How many more? Did THEY tell? Did he try is with his sisters? Did he do it to his daughters? He still goes to church there! Does he still do it?
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More thoughts..
WHO was it that went on the secular TV news with this story!?! duggie and mrs duggie ! Not Mrs. M. !
Beall has been ostracized from her parents for years (honor your father and mother?) and her only social contacts are duggites!! …because of duggie ! She has nowhere to go and I feel that duggie would threaten her with the old… you even THINK about divorce then you will never see your children again and you will be ruined for life cuz after all… I did not *know* her (barf).
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Count my close family members among the 66%: my mother, wife, sister. So given what I’ve seen those I love go through, and the ways in which it has affected their innocent lives, I’m not too inclined to give abusers the benefit of the doubt, I’m more in line with pattij553, wondering when and where they’ll go find a millstone–arguably the strongest words Jesus ever spoke.
By the way, I just got shockingly hit with something right down the alley of this thread. My college freshman teenage daughter, who is a Strong and Intimidating Woman in the best possible way (as in stand up for the oppressed, using whatever means necessary–and I don’t mean maybe, she reminds me of a Christian version of a social rights activist cut from 60s – 70s cloth), was invited by her more timid best friend to Wednesday evening youth group at the local SBC church. Why? Because her friend is afraid of the new youth worker for junior high and high school. Why the fear? Turns out he is on probation for statutory rape of a 14 year old after having spent time in prison! She said this youth leader, who supposedly talks all the time about how on fire he is for Jesus, recently cornered her 17 year old best friend and told her how he had the hots for her and was going to “pulverize her boyfriend’s face if he tried to stand in his way”..how he’d be watching her and waiting for her…etc.
Unbelievable. I guess I got one to fight in my own back yard. What is it with the SBC?
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“I think we need to make something clear about Phillips here.
He is not a Christian. Christians are not perfect, and will sin after conversion it’s true. But lengthy, unrepentant sin should not exist in someone who has truly Christ. Doug engaged in this behavior for several years, was asked to stop by Lourdes, was called on the carpet SEVERAL times by the Torres family, his family and his church family. He did not admit to any wrongdoing until it was apparent that his livelihood was in jeopardy. That’s not repentance, that’s remorse for getting CAUGHT.
His pattern of deceit and heresy are more than enough to believe Lourdes over Doug. More than enough.
According to the Bible, this man should be treated as an unbeliever. We need to quit pretending that Doug Phillips is our fallen brother when he is actually a wolf in sheep’s clothing. He is a predator, a false teacher and a heathen. I would be very wary of receiving instruction from women like Stacy and Kelly, women who seem to think that Doug Phillips just needs Christian love and prayer, when Doug Phillips was clearly never an actual Christian in the first place.”
Rachel, I have thought the same thing, so we’re on the same page, kid.
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” the local SBC church. Why? Because her friend is afraid of the new youth worker for junior high and high school. Why the fear? Turns out he is on probation for statutory rape of a 14 year old after having spent time in prison!”
I bet Amy Smith could give them a piece of her mind!
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What we’re seeing is a lot of apostasy masquerading as Christianity, and the reason the abusers are claiming Christianity is because they can get closer to the true Church and do more damage to it. They destroy believers through spreading false doctrine, abusive patriarchy, slander, child abuse, authoritarian church structures where members of the true Church are being told they must essentially seek God through the leaders, or women are more or less told they can only seek God through their husbands.
Of course they present themselves as good, they take great pains to tell you so. This is exactly what the Lord warned us about, the servants of a false god presenting themselves as angels of light. Of course they do, what do we expect? We were warned 2,000 years ago.
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“Turns out he is on probation for statutory rape of a 14 year old after having spent time in prison! She said this youth leader, who supposedly talks all the time about how on fire he is for Jesus, recently cornered her 17 year old best friend and told her how he had the hots for her and was going to “pulverize her boyfriend’s face if he tried to stand in his way”..how he’d be watching her and waiting for her…etc.”
Yes, this sounds just like the new SBC. Of course the pew sitters will beam with smiles that they are “full of grace” for sinners like him and even
pay him to harass his charges!
Moral chaos.
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Truthdector, @3:41. At the risk of de-railing, but there are several on this board who state that they have experience with legal prosecution of sex abuse cases and law enforcement. I will defer to them. However, from my armchair, 1) kudos to your daughter for being a good friend; 2) kudos to her friend for seeing a potentially very dangerous situation and getting help.
Next. Go to the police. Now. I am aghast that any organization would hire a sex offender to work with children/teens. It is grossly negligent and they have assumed enormous risk in doing so — civil and maybe criminal liability. The responsible organizations of which I am aware all will disqualify a sex offender from working with children; many require fingerprinting and check applicants against registries because it is so well document that serial offenders seek out the vulnerable places in the system to continue their predation. The individual could be in violation of the terms of his own parole which would prohibit interaction with children/teens. It’s so typical of teens to go to their friends and not seek the help of adults — why would they when it is adults who have endangered them in the first place. She must do something, now, or this could become a terrible situation.
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Rachel and Lynn,
I used to think of the patriarchalists as brethren in error. I thought that they were just odd, more uptight Calvinists who were fearfully looking for a magic pill to fix everything about life that they didn’t like. They were trying to clean up the hard stuff in life by scrubbing up and putting fancy bows on things from the banal elements of humanity to the cancerous. They also didn’t like ambiguity very much, so offering black and white answers to complex, messy people’s messy problems helped them feel like they had control.
I thought all of that until I started a study of “multigenerational faithfulness.” It isn’t just Covenant Theology with a strong tie to the Old Testament as Retha pointed out, further up the comment thread. It’s another gospel, and good news it is not. It’s freewillism and a method of pulling one up by one’s bootstraps, all wrapped up with “Calvin” and “Knox” and “Rushdoony” stamped all over. It necessitates high measures of control because it is driven by man’s striving through legalism. And it helps you feel like you’re getting a leg up over other lesser Christians through quite a bit of leveling by tearing other people down so you can have the highest spire in the neighborhood. All of that requires quite a bit of work.
But the ground is level at the foot of the Cross. No one stands any higher than any other.
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Lydiasellerofpurple
I am stunned, and at the SBC church 3 miles from my office. They put a molester with the youth who threatens and intimidates at least one minor with very unwanted sexual advances. According to my daughter, the story her best friend relates is of this being relatively in the open, during youth night, not in some closet back of the church or after the parents had gone home, the intimidation was allegedly in front of other youth! She also said–and I am not making this up–that the new guy in his “Christian testimony” admitted to the youth group his arrest and conviction, professed his new found faith in Jesus, then proceeded to tell them that he was done wrong and abused by the 14 year old, who set him up and did him wrong. That sounds too absurd to be true. Either I’m getting the story wrong or something is so seriously wrong as to be nearly beyond belief. And there are some decent people, multiple friends of ours, who have their children in this group.
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Patti,
Life is tough enough. You don’t need to pick on yourself, too. 😉 I’ll quit if you do. ;P
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“He is not a Christian. Christians are not perfect, and will sin after conversion it’s true. But lengthy, unrepentant sin should not exist in someone who has truly Christ. Doug engaged in this behavior for several years, was asked to stop by Lourdes, was called on the carpet SEVERAL times by the Torres family, his family and his church family. He did not admit to any wrongdoing until it was apparent that his livelihood was in jeopardy. That’s not repentance, that’s remorse for getting CAUGHT.”
Yes……..even the men who were there to confront him have blatantly said he’s not repentant. NOT in the least. I and many others have said that he wasn’t repentant while all of these people just still were drinking that kool-aid and sucking it dry…….and fawning all over him. Sick!
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Ruth, She could also warn folks through outlets like google review. :o)
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Lydia,
Yeah, with JA’s atty on speed dial.
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Comment #284, for what it’s worth: Why did I allow myself to be held hostage at CCC for four months? Because even though I knew something wasn’t right, I trusted them and thought maybe I was the real problem. Secondly, I thought they had authority over me. Thirdly, the CCC elders were/are well respected in Reformed circles. Fourthly, I thought I belonged to the only Christian camp worth being a part of. Fifthly, I thought they had the authority to declare me an unbeliever. Sixth, all of the friends I had were in Reformed circles. Being excommunicated means the loss of all of those friends, and for many, your career which i saw happen more than once.
In her case, add the possibility that polygamy may be accepted in the inner circles of the Patriarchy movement. Did she know that his wife knew?
At any rate, as one who was literally held hostage for 4 months; ie, *you can’t vacate membership and you damn well better show up every time the doors are open,* I can tell you the consent angle is the devil’s argument. The CCC elders defended themselves according to the idea that I “agreed to stay as long as I did.” Right, and look what happened when I left. I f you have never been brainwashed–you wont understand.
But ok, let’s say she was consenting; whatever happened to leaders being responsible for leading younger, less mature believers astray? A real leader holds the leader completely liable. The fact that Wilson would even go there shows what kind of leader he is. It’s like a bank robber getting hit by a car as he flees and making the story about the driver who hit him.
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I wonder if Queen Bee McDonald has been discussing this thread with her husband because he issued this on his public Facebook page today (h/t FJ winky back) https://www.facebook.com/james.mcdonald1/posts/10203391267600891?stream_ref=5
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Cindy,
I greatly appreciate your transparency as you share your journey to healing from abuse. I think by being so open, you are in a sense giving others permission to get help, too, because so many churches teach that getting mental health help is sinful. I disagree.
In my church background, it was wrong to seek counseling outside of an approved kind of Biblical counseling. I did that and it didn’t help with my PTSD whatsoever. In fact the Biblical counseling I got sent me in a downward spiral even worse than I started because then it seemed like God was abandoning me when my prayers, Bible reading weren’t helping to relieve the symptoms. Finally after going to a psychologist (who happened to be a great Christian guy), was I able to get to the root of the issue and I am very happy to say I have experienced no more PTSD symptoms. It’s been around 22 years since I had my last flashback. Am I ashamed that I had to seek a mental health expert? No way! I think it saved my life.
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Julie Anne,
What frightens me about all this is that though my mother was terrified of psychologists and such, I found understanding and acceptance. I started nursing school in my teens, and millions of unanswered questions started making incredible sense. It’s something when you can sit in a lecture and someone reads a list of symptoms (depression), and you find that you have every single one. I remember learning about one personality disorder and looking around the room at others, for one of my family members had every single item on the list in abundance. I had a hard time accepting that this was really a disorder. It was my norm for this person in my life. I identified the problems and found hope and acceptance in a field that I trusted. But psych classes were hard for me — between that and the whole bit about demonology, too. I got into counseling just before I turned twenty — when I was able to get there myself and pay for it.
I also had a profound experience in a clinical experience when I was in my senior year and already an RN at about age 19 or 20. I observed a substance abuse disorder group therapy session for teens, and I asked the therapist who ran the group if I could say something before we disbanded. I explained that the session was remarkable for me personally, for the only difference between them and me was that I didn’t have access to substances. I turned to working and schoolwork and achievement as my drug, but my feelings and experiences were the same. Girls there had been molested and were trying to drown their sorrows to be numb instead of in pain. There were two there that self-injured, another addictive behavior which gives the person some sense of both being alive and of having some control over their expressions of pain, releasing calming endorphins in the process.
I had that lifeline thrown to me as a consequence of my nursing training which I had access to at a young age. I availed myself of that help and continued to seek it out. And I stay accountable to a couple of different practitioners to keep myself grounded, too, in addition to those who provide me with oversight for my blog.
What do the people who are deep into patriarchy or even just plain old Evangelicalism that looks on clinical mental healthcare as evil? PTSD is sinful self-indulgence. It’s not a physical survival process that gets stuck in the “on” position. I had liberty and encouragement and found solace and care in therapeutic psychology — and not for lack of trying to find it in the church. I’ve had so many sessions of deliverance that I cannot even count them, though I was never told that I had any demonic problems. Abuse and getting free of it came up frequently, however…
How do we get the message of hope to those who have been indoctrinated to fear and reject it? That’s the billion dollar question.
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We do what you’re doing – share our stories transparently without shame!
I think we’re a little bit alike, Cindy. I remember self-diagnosing myself before I ever went to the psychologist. Back then, there was no internet, I had to do it the old fashioned way of going to the library. It was pretty clear I had PTSD.
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Talk about playing the victim role…James McDonald no one here has done anything to you, your ministry (in which biblically your disqualified) , or your children.
Although, your wife has been called to the carpet for her hit and run smirky comments on Doug Wilson blog. Perhaps, James you should instruct your wife to stay off the internet and not make smirky comments about something she know nothing about, if that is what your referring to in your face book post.
I have a question for Stacy who writes this in her book….This does not mean that James and I were blameless in every aspect of our past relationships. We made mistakes, sinned, repented, and were forgiven, fallen creatures that we are. There is no question of whether or not we were perfect spouses—we were not! But that does not negate the fact that we were both the “innocent victims” of adultery.
she writes this about you and her, “Innocent victims” of adultery, but she has no compassion for Lourdes whom has been violated and abused.
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JA, re McDonald facebook rant (23.9:33pm). After all the issues brought up in criticism of patriarchy, he points out how good he is for giving up his lovely lolly.
And as he sees it, the criticisms aren’t of patriarchy, but of little ole him: his guts, his name, his doctrinal positions, his motives, his wife, his children.
They aren’t criticisms, either, but twisting, defaming, attacking, gossip. Perhaps McDonald thinks that there is no such thing as legitimate criticism for his position, which is, of course, perfect in all aspects.
Ach.
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Waitingforthetrumpet2, please be patient with yourself. There’s not a cure for a severe case of PTSD, but it fades a great deal over time even while it still waxes and wanes. Reminders will set it off, and this load of crap certainly qualifies. One gets through an upsurge most quickly by being very very kind to one’s self. Gentle, merciful, gracious.
Also, as one goes along, layers get peeled back, as Cindy K is also experiencing now. They are not just meaningless repetition but new learning that can make the subsequent upsurges less intense.
It is completely unfair to be in such a destructed position. My sympathies to you, travelling the same path.
I don’t know if you’ve checked, but I do recommend Pete Walker’s site—he has useful stuff for managing remaining symptoms.
http://www.pete-walker.com/
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Cindy K, thanks for telling some of your story. I think it’s remarkable how you’ve kept an open heart/mind throughout. Much respect!
And it has paid off in spades.
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What is PTSD
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Theresa N.,
PTSD – post traumatic stress disorder
It is what most abused victims are diagnosed with when your mental health problems surface.
For me, I had been dating a guy who was putting a lot of pressure on me for s*x, I said, “no.” Anyway, one morning I had a intense moment where all I could do was cry. I had been part of the local Presbyterian Campus Ministry, and knew they had a support group for survivors. The person who ran the ministry and support group has a degree in psychology. My mom, being bi-polar, had a psychologist she visited regularly so I was not afraid to go get help. First I visited with him for a couple of sessions and then joined the support group. (Found out later the same person had abused my brother.)
Hope that helps.
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Thanks
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“And as he sees it, the criticisms aren’t of patriarchy, but of little ole him: his guts, his name, his doctrinal positions, his motives, his wife, his children.
They aren’t criticisms, either, but twisting, defaming, attacking, gossip. Perhaps McDonald thinks that there is no such thing as legitimate criticism for his position, which is, of course, perfect in all aspects.”
Patrice nailed it re: James McDonald.
I personally know people involved in the Patriarchal fringe of homeschooling. I love these people. I have fond memories of time spent together. However, I *strongly* disagree with their ideology. This makes it awkward, no?
Mr. McDonald,
Nobody has attacked your personal life on this blog. We are calling out your ideology. I believe we’ve been far more gracious than your wife who called us crazy and “scary.” Please, don’t project onto us.
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Cindy K, JA, and everyone: I think that you (all who are working hard to bring the message of hope and there are many!) are doing a great job putting the message of hope out there, within the givens. Unfortunately, the christian media is as corrupted as national media, presenting the pro-institutional line and excluding everything else.
Maybe we could find ways to intercept the media, such as Deb/Dee did recently at TWW, paying for an announcement at Christian News Service. There are billboards, too, and flyers that can be given people as they leave church (or put on car windows). Etc. Maybe we could campaign the good pastors—help them find easy ways to address it with their congregations: provide little meditations on such, establish phrases to use, write one-time studies for their Sunday schools (Bible studies, mens/womens groups), write some three-point sermons that they can use as outlines.
I’m not being imaginative here, but surely we can find ways to get pushy. Because you’ve laid the foundations well and now it needs to be advertised.
I am open to helping out on some of this stuff. I can’t be active out there, but I can edit, write blurbs, etc.
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Cindy K, how I wish PTSD was merely sinful self-indulgence! Underlying that declaration is an insistence that for a Christian, everything that hurts in life is fixable. Perhaps they think it must be so or Christ’s resurrection means nothing, I don’t know. But they also believe that evil comes from outside the church and that everyone outside the church is evil, which causes several huge problems:
–It keeps them from going outside to get help, such as therapy.
–It encourages them to think themselves far better than is accurate.
–It makes them vulnerable to evil inside the church.
–It promotes the presumption that everything can be found in their own circles, or if not yet, easily developed since they have the complete truth at their fingertips. Unfortunately, it reduces them to stupidity.
People inside who aren’t healed by their narrow derivative systems, whose experience shows that evil is also inside the church, and who prove to them their own inadequacies, are reduced to “heathen” and dismissed. They must do this in order to maintain their delusions. And since they’ve tied their delusions to God Himself, it is not likely that they’ll give them up.
Brad Futurist Guy dismantles this way of thinking and I think it’s very important. At some point, his stuff will need to be translated into shorter articles, using common vocab. I think that’s part of the needed campaign.
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Teresa N.,
Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) can happen from witnessing a traumatic event or helping a friend or family member through a traumatic event. A horrific car accident, war, suffering child abuse (physical or emotional), sexual assault, and, of course, spiritual abuse or other forms of manipulation and control. It can come from one event or a series of events and is diagnosed based on flashbacks, avoidance of the memories or any mention of similar events, detachment, irritable behavior, angry outbursts, problems concentrating, self-destructive behavior, hypervigilance and several others including negative self-image or thoughts (“can’t trust anyone”) and avoidance of the place where it happened – people who avoid church, for example, after being abused (though that can also just be a change in life and not a symptom).
If you or anyone you know has any of these symptoms, talk to a professional. There is treatment that helps. My husband has PTSD and fortunately is much better now but the thing about it is that it doesn’t necessarily show up right away. It often creeps in slowly. So a person may be abused in their church but not have all the symptoms right away – maybe one or two and the family normalizes it, but then more symptoms show up and then they become barriers to a healthy life. The National Alliance for the Mentally Ill (NAMI) is a great resource for families supporting someone with PTSD.
It’s not necessarily the severity of the incident but how you felt about it and how your own body reacts to it – people can go through the same event and have completely different responses. That is another reason why people who claim “it didn’t bother anyone else” or “she’s not really a victim” are so harmful. You can’t know. And PTSD spreads to the family and can damage them in turn.
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Thanks Jackie C.
I have to go get my colonoscopy this morning cause I am 50 now but I will comment later. Having to drink that crap was dreadful…..I am hungry…lol
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“I personally know people involved in the Patriarchal fringe of homeschooling. I love these people. I have fond memories of time spent together. However, I *strongly* disagree with their ideology. This makes it awkward, no?”
BeenThere, yeah, it can be awkward. OTOH, I’ve spent the majority of my life with people who I don’t agree with, mostly unbelievers, and it was manageable. We teased each other about it. We had huge debates. We gave each other hugs while insisting that the other is full of crap.
In the end, it’s about loving the persons who God made, actually seeing who they are and admiring/respecting them. We desire the best for them while also recognizing that they have their path and it would be presumptuous to try to force them along, as even God doesn’t.
But I can’t bear arrogance and condescension. It’s just a personal bugaboo. I pick on it whenever it occurs near me, in/out of the church. 😉
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Patrice, your comment at APRIL 24, 2014 @ 5:32 AM hit the nail on the head as to the nature of the problem. When your ideology says everything inside is perfect (not even Christ or Paul taught that!), and everything outside is evil or at least less than perfect, it actually FOSTERS evil in the church, due to the narcissism of the pastors who teach that nonsense. It becomes all about them, not about Him. And evil is the result.
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Can someone please copy James McDonald’s FB rant to here so we can see it? Thanks! Interesting he would make it so public and hide from dealing with the issues where they are actually being discussed! He has a history of using FB to gossip about his problems in his “c”hurch.
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