Pastor Chuck Smith, Founder of Calvary Chapel Churches, Dead at 86

225 thoughts on “Pastor Chuck Smith, Founder of Calvary Chapel Churches, Dead at 86”

1. I guess the curse didn’t take. I’m glad. I don’t believe Christians should issue curses or veiled threats.

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2. Reblogged this on Speakingtruthinlove's Blog.

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3. I then commented publicly that I had a feeling the cancer would kill him, despite the happy and optimistic updates from his daughter and all the prayers for his healing etc…

   Even with 21st Century medicine, Lung Cancer (all types lumped together) is over 90% fatal within the first year from diagnosis. And by age 86 you’ve usually got one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel, Name It and Claim It or not.

   I remember Alex relating how Papa Chuck Smith would crow about “God Hath Struck Him Down” whenever any of HIS enemies were diagnosed with cancer. How God cursed them with Cancer for their Blasphemy and Heresy. Sauce for Goose, Sauce for Gander.

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4. P.S. Does the power struggle and inheritance fight over Calvary Chapel Inc now kick off? Or is there a Chuck Smith Jr waiting to step forward and ascend the throne (as there is at CC Visalia)? (Or is there more than one who will all need to bring their own food, drink, and tasters to any family dinner from now on?)

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5. HUG, i believe the power struggle has been underway for some months now. . still i wonder what sort of power vacuum Chuck Smith’s passing has left?

   i don’t follow all that, but Michael from Phoenix Preacher publishes much of what he hears regarding the ongoing power dynamics within the CC franchise.
   http://michaelnewnham.com/

   ja, i reblogged this on SpAu

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6. This comment came in on my SSB Facebook page. Comments??

   “Chuck Smith just passed away. I believe this post and posting on Facebook is bad timing. His family should be allowed to grieve without this. I hope you reconsider the timing of all these posts. I did not agree with Chuck Smith or Calvary chapel, but now we should give the family peace from any criticism. Grace should be our first priority at this particular time.”

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7. I am inclined to agree that a certain amount of deference is in order, and yet HUG informs us, “I remember Alex relating how Papa Chuck Smith would crow about “God Hath Struck Him Down” whenever any of HIS enemies were diagnosed with cancer.” And HUG also observes, “Sauce for Goose, Sauce for Gander.”

   I direct no criticism toward anybody who chooses to comment at this time.

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8. Gary W. – -as I said to Alex – – my blog is a place where victims have a voice. Alex is a victim and he speaks for scores of people who have been abandoned by church leaders. If his death causes people to do Google searching for more of Chuck Smith’s story, this is indeed part of his story. So, now, what do we do with that knowledge? Does it motivate us to action? To ask pastors what has been going on in CC churches? I hope it does. Let’s not let this opportunity pass.

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9. I know nothing about Chuck Smith. But I certainly know about the “type”. And what he told Alex is sooooo typical. They are all powerful when it is convenient but totally powerless when it is even more convenient. I got very sick of it myself.

   What on earth does it say about a pastor who DOES have tons of influence that they won’t even try to intervene to see if evil is going on in the denomination he started. He refused to use his gravitas to help eradicate evil? Well the messy stuff also comes with that big name and celebrity.

   As to his death. This is part of his legacy. I can remember when Jack Hyles died and people made a big deal about not speaking ill of him. What? Are YOU serious? He was reprobate. He should have become an example of evil in the name of Jesus.

   Time we stopped playing games, folks. The victims deserve for truth to be known far and wide.

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10. That was my comment and I will own it as shows by my real name being given. . If that is the case then I have to say you are abusing the family as you claim Chuck Smith has done to you and it is insensitive. I had hoped that my comment would make a difference. I am saddened to see it has not. Discernment ministries are good and needed until it needlessly harms as you are doing at this time to Chuck Smith’s family. It is not something I can or will support. You are now being the very thing you claim to be fighting. This is not the only ministry to have become this way in another area. It goes against what you say you stand for. You have now become the insensitive abuser.

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11. “I remember Alex relating how Papa Chuck Smith would crow about “God Hath Struck Him Down” whenever any of HIS enemies were diagnosed with cancer. How God cursed them with Cancer for their Blasphemy and Heresy. Sauce for Goose, Sauce for Gander.”

    Charles Stanley said this about those who opposed him, too.

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12. Wow, Debbie, those are strong words – – “insensitive abuser.”

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13. Some personal thoughts on whether “the timing is inappropriate”…

    Death is a time to remember a person and his or her legacy, whether good or bad — or, as is most commonly the case, a mixture. True remembrance — and truly honoring remembrance — is remembrance that embraces the full humanity of a being.

    Alex’s story is an important part of Chuck’s story, whether we like it or not.

    I remember attending a memorial service, many years ago, for a woman widely respected in my Christian homeschool world. She was an amazing teacher. But she was not a saint. She caused her family a lot of pain. A LOT of pain. Anyone who was actually close to her knew her family had scars and secrets and tears.

    And I can tell you this — not a single person was allowed to speak at the funeral that would have given a balanced (yet respectful) perspective on her. It was all “she was a saint” and “she was an angel” and “what a wonderful mother.”

    Which was complete and total bullshit.

    I’ll tell you what, too — knowing her, she would have called bullshit herself. So would her kids, who were crying because they lost their mom but also crying twice as hard because what everyone said felt like an erasure of their own experiences of her glaring imperfections.

    I say all that to say: Death is not a time to just remember what we like about a person. That is not how we honor the dead. That is how we *forget* who the dead were when alive. What Alex wrote absolutely has its place during this time of mourning, celebration, and sober reflection.

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14. I don’t know enough to comment on this whole situation, but it is sad to me. I pray you will be able to heal now. I also pray Chuck Smith’s family will be able to heal.

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15. “It is not something I can or will support. ”

    Debbie, Not exactly sure why you would think it necessary?

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16. i agree, Ryan. . what Alex wrote absolutely has its place

    if only the Moses Model would have died with him, then, truly, there would be cause for celebration, at least at my end

    ok, i celebrate that Chuck Smith is with the Lord, Hallelujah. And that our many sins are forgiven in Christ. However, this is our reality, this is what Chuck Smith left us with: an egregiously unbiblical model for doing church that has exponentially institutionalized itself across planet earth. O how his many sins, and sins’ consequences, multiplied!

    the shadow of death looms large over Calvary Chapel

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17. To tell abuse victims they must be silent when someone responsible for their abuse dies is to double the offense. To ignore his responsibility and speak only of what he has done well is to paint a distorted, and therefore false, picture of the man. The family is not reading this now, so there is no danger of hurting them. They have a right to know just who their father was and what he had done in his life. They won’t read it today, but they will learn later, if they don’t already know.

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18. Lydia: I am sure you don’t. Your last comment was needlessly cruel given the circumstances of a man’s death and his family. It wouldn’t even be appropriate in a month.

    Svetlana: Later is better. Wounds are deep and compassion is also necessary even from abuse victims. Especially from abuse victims. If you want your message to be heard for one, timing is everything. This is not the time. Tell me how do you feel about Westboro Church picketing funerals. I am not saying that you guys are Westboro, but the pain is the same. Read what Rick Warren said when there were those who did this same thing to him when his son died. It was excruciating for him. It is wrong to inflict this kind of pain to someone no matter the reason. Then you are no different than the ones who inflicted pain on you.

    Julie Anne: I know you don’t mean to be abusive, but that is what this is. Chuck Smith’s family are raw right now. They are grieving and to put this kind of post up now is cruel. Where is it any different than John Piper writing what he did when the Oklahoma Tornadoes came in May? He didn’t mean to be cruel either, yet he was. I cannot be anymore silent now as I was then. I support your cause, I am glad you and others have been speaking out. It needs to be. This however is not appropriate and it is cruel if not taken down in my opinion. It will hurt what you have worked so hard to build and do.

    A man has died and there are already posts out there, more than this blog, with glad he’s gone and here is what he has done posts. Think of the family. That is Christianity. That is Christ. This is not no matter what reason you posted it.

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19. Alex’s story is an important part of Chuck’s story, whether we like it or not.

    And Alex’s story shows that Chuck had a Dark Side.

    I say all that to say: Death is not a time to just remember what we like about a person. That is not how we honor the dead. That is how we *forget* who the dead were when alive. What Alex wrote absolutely has its place during this time of mourning, celebration, and sober reflection.

    I am reminded of the SF novel Speaker for the Dead by Mormon SF writer Orson Scott Card. The main plot of the novel involves Card’s continuing character Ender Wiggins (formerly of Ender’s Game, now known as “The Xenocide” due to the ending of that novel) travelling incognito to a colony world to hold a memorial service for the dead, as “Speaker”. As “Speaker for the Dead”, he researches all that he can about the life of the deceased, then at “The Speaking” he tells everything he learned about the life of the deceased, reviewing the entire life in public. His only constraint is he must tell the Absolute Truth about the deceased — the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

    For over thirty years my image of The Last Judgment was the Great White Throne scene from Jack Chick’s “This Was Your Life”. This Mormon SF novel was the first to put a crack in that image, as “the Speaking” gave me an “AHA!” moment about the Last Jugdment. (However, Chick’s abusive image — reinforced by several years of preaching — still holds sway. Only cracked, not shattered.)

    And Alex is Speaking for the Dead, Speaking the Bad and the Ugly as a counterpoint to all the Speaking the Good you will hear from Calvary Chapel sources.

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20. We rightly grieve the loss of a Mother Teresa, and we rightly celebrate the death of an Osama Bin Laden. Let those to whom Chuck Smith was as Mother Teresa sing his praises. Let those to whom Chuck Smith was as evil personified indict his very memory. To say:

    “Wounds are deep and compassion is also necessary even from abuse victims. Especially from abuse victims.”

    is to shift obligation and duty from the perpetrator to the victim. It is to say that the injury suffered is of no account. It is to abandon the victim. To forgive is not to pretend that the bad thing never happened, nor is it to grant absolution–though absolution is commendable if freely given. Forgiveness does not require reconciliation, or the granting of compassion, or any such thing. To forgive requires only that vengeance be left to God. I dare say that forgiveness leaves room to be thankful, even to celebrate, when God’s vengeance is worked. Thankfulness and celebration can coexist with grief–grief that the agent of harm did not come to repentance, continuing grief at the harmed suffered. And grief must be allowed its voice.

    I say let each on speak or remain silent as they deem appropriate; but let nobody attempt to say what is appropriate for another.

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21. good word HUG
    and fwiw i’m a bit of an OSC fan myself

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22. “Lydia: I am sure you don’t. Your last comment was needlessly cruel given the circumstances of a man’s death and his family. It wouldn’t even be appropriate in a month. ”

    Debbie,

    You have taken on a “rebuke matron” persona. Why not let it go? You made your point. Why continue? Perhaps your rebuke will change some minds here, perhaps not. Why is it so important to you to control others?

    Personally, I am more concerned about what Alex thinks. He had to live it. And now the one person who had the gravitas to confront this but chose not to, is gone. And that would have been “appropriate” if that is what we are focusing on. Alex has value, too.

    I am sure there will be plenty of praises for Smith at Calvary Chapel sites all over.

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23. “….is to shift obligation and duty from the perpetrator to the victim. It is to say that the injury suffered is of no account. It is to abandon the victim. To forgive is not to pretend that the bad thing never happened, nor is it to grant absolution–though absolution is commendable if freely given. Forgiveness does not require reconciliation, or the granting of compassion, or any such thing. To forgive requires only that vengeance be left to God. I dare say that forgiveness leaves room to be thankful, even to celebrate, when God’s vengeance is worked. Thankfulness and celebration can coexist with grief–grief that the agent of harm did not come to repentance, continuing grief at the harmed suffered. And grief must be allowed its voice”

    Perfect words, Gary

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24. When it is okay — how many days must go by — before we speak ill of the dead?

    I am thankful for Chuck Smith. I will never forget how Calvary Chapel in Santa Ana changed my life as a girl listening to the music of the Jesus generation: Daniel Amos, Second Chapter of Acts, Keith Green on and on.

    Chuck Smith will have a wonderful funeral with loving people giving testimonies. And there are lot of commendations he deserves.

    But Smith was not a perfect man, and we who are grateful for *some* of what he built do not have to be grateful for *all* of it.

    Those closest to him were also very open about his faults. And I think he would have wanted it that way. He doesn’t care now anyway. He’s rejoicing with Jesus.

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25. not a day should go by that we speak the truth concerning the living and the dead

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26. unless there’s a moratorium for the recently deceased i don’t know about

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27. Lydia, you stole the words right out of my mouth:
    “Personally, I am more concerned about what Alex thinks. He had to live it. And now the one person who had the gravitas to confront this but chose not to, is gone. And that would have been “appropriate” if that is what we are focusing on. Alex has value, too. ”

    Chuck is home free in the presence of Christ. Alex is here, stuck in the pain & abandonment of a church leader who chose to turn a deaf ear to his plea. It must be a agony of its own, and I ache for Alex, he has to live without hope of being heard.

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28. P.S. I hear you Alex.

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29. Reblogged this on christianagnostic and commented:
    Chuck is dead…wondering what this means for Calvary Chapel.

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30. For goodness sakes, Debbie. Come now. What’s being talked about here are actual, personal remembrances of someone’s life. The new rule is that’s okay for the breathing but it’s off limits for those who have passed?

    The reality is if someone’s life is “prettied up” when they’ve passed, the perpetrating of untruth & damage control has continued. Yikes!

    Christ didn’t come to do damage control & shut everyone up to make things fake pretty… so we can’t tell the difference between right & wrong anymore – it’s all good, just paint it all with grace. Christ came to tell the truth & set the captive free. With hope for wrong-doers if they repent & change their ways. That’s real beauty. That’s the gospel. That’s real love. Let us learn, grow wise, teach the next generation lessons so wrongs aren’t repeated.

    You asked how is it different from 3 examples you brought up:
    Westboro Baptist, they don’t know the fallen at all & that’s not who/what they’re talking about.
    Rick Warren’s son, the discussion wasn’t about him personally either.
    John Piper wasn’t speaking of specifics about those children.
    All three were general statements /beliefs/agendas trying to get press & make a point off someone/people who had died. See the difference? I agree these were not loving.

    The rest of what you said I can’t respond to better than Gary W’s response @4:17PM. He expressed my sentiments to a T.

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31. Singing praises of dead people? (via comment above) That’s a bit much. Being hurt over dead people? That’s okay.

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32. Christianity Today just wrote a cutesy but long obituary about Chuck Smith and how huge and transformative and God blessed he was. I don’t know how to respond in the face of anointed-with-honey-by-God speak.

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33. Death and taxes happen to everyone.

    Give people a chance to mourn, it is, after all, the decent thing to do.

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34. Isn’t Alex in essence mourning, too? When someone dies, you think about who that person was to you and their effect on your life. To Alex, he represented the key man who could have initiated positive change. One aspect of mourning is regret. I think Alex is dealing with that aspect as he mourns.

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35. Gail,

    Perhaps it is my experiences which color the situation for me. Here is the deal for me when it comes to Alex approaching Chuck Smith: I have been around mega celebs for many years. I KNOW what it takes for a person to approach them about something like this. In fact, Chuck’s response to Alex sounds very similar to some situations I knew about in other venues.

    And being on the other side of the fence, I know the celebs I worked with never had ANY INTENTION of looking into the situations brought to them. They could have. They could have made a BIG difference because of their influence. In fact, dealing with truth would have changed some of the situations entirely and brought about justice and prevented future victims.

    But they were not willing to stick their necks out. Image was more important and no way were they going to take the chance of airing dirty laundry for the sake of truth and justice. Not even to bring truth and justice to a victim of unspeakable evil.

    Pastors are not unlike doctors when it comes to this stuff they protect one another and the image of the institution. And the bigger the institution, the worse they are about image.

    So about Chuck Smith I will say that he could have been instrumental in getting a criminal out of the pulpit of a denomination he started but chose not to. And yes, it would have been messy. So what?

    A mom sums it up here:

    “The reality is if someone’s life is “prettied up” when they’ve passed, the perpetrating of untruth & damage control has continued.”

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36. “Isn’t Alex in essence mourning, too? When someone dies, you think about who that person was to you and their effect on your life. To Alex, he represented the key man who could have initiated positive change. One aspect of mourning is regret. I think Alex is dealing with that aspect as he mourns.”

    JA, This is the plight of victims are we trying to change. It is NEVER about them. Notice that? Even from those who claim they care about the victims of unspeakable evil. It seems at some point, they always have to take a back seat or are expected to be invisible. Either they have equal value or they don’t. Truth is important whether it is in death or life. I am a bit sick of victims basically being told that truth and justice don’t matter in some circumstances.

    My position is that we must stick our necks out and be willing to be rebuked, kicked out of churches, etc, for the sake of truth and justice AND for victims of evil by other professing Christians. We are not sinless perfection but we are to be “pure”. And that pure in heart cannot live along side covering up evil or looking the other way when one can do something about it.

    We could very well end up standing alone with lots of churchy people very angry with us. So what?

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37. I am so sorry for your pain, this pain you have been carrying for a long time. I ask you this, where is the grace, the love and forgiveness in your life. I have found great peace and revelation from God with Christian counseling. In fact it is amazing to have mentors in your life to go over these grave issues with and with time and seeking God, to get a place where you can experience the peace and growth from having endured. Your bitterness has taken root, deep within your inner being.
    There is so much to learn about having a relationship with God, love, grace and forgiveness are a huge part. Instead of lambasting Chuck Smith you should have been praying for him. I pray for my offenders daily and there is an absolute joy that comes from it. Every human being represents an eternal soul that will spend eternity in heaven with our loving God and savior or in hell, a place described as filled with wailing and gnashing of teeth. You know deep inside what you really need to do. Do not let emotion/feelings rule in your life’s actions but let the spirit of God bring healing in your life.

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38. Hi Ken,

    Welcome to the blog and thanks for your comment. I’m guessing that the “you” you are referring to is Alex.

    Your bitterness has taken root, deep within your inner being.

    What makes you think Alex is bitter? Can you pinpoint that exactly?

    “Instead of lambasting Chuck Smith you should have been praying for him.”

    What ways did he lambast Chuck? Are you talking about now, after his death, or are you referring to earlier? How do you know that Alex did not pray for him?

    Do not let emotion/feelings rule in your life’s actions but let the spirit of God bring healing in your life.

    I’ve known Alex for over a year now and have had lengthy conversations with him. I do not at all see that emotions rule his life. He is a busy man running several stores, overseeing his Calvary Chapel Abuse blog, husband, and father. He has little time for emotions to rule his life, frankly.

    As far as letting God bring healing to his life, you need to be aware that Alex, most likely because of church leaders abandoning him, has been wrestling spiritually. I don’t think Alex would mind me saying this because he has been very public about it. You seem to have a quick formula to solve this spiritually, but the people who were supposed to be godly men and guide him and protect him FAILED him. This has rocked him to his spiritual core. How do you reconcile that, Ken? This goes far deeper than you think. Telling Alex what he should have done is really cold and insensitive. You have not walked in his shoes.

    You are new here. This is a blog where survivors of church abuse get a platform to use their voices. I’m willing to dialogue with you about this if you want to gain understanding, but this won’t be a place where people get to shame survivors.

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39. Ken, Not sure how to take your comment but will try to interpret it for you because you may not even understand what you believe yourself.

    “There is so much to learn about having a relationship with God, love, grace and forgiveness are a huge part. Instead of lambasting Chuck Smith you should have been praying for him. I pray for my offenders daily and there is an absolute joy that comes from it. ”

    Basically, with this one you are taking the responsibility for wrong behavior OFF of the “long time professing believer” and onto the victim and God. This is pretty typical in what passes for Christianity today. You see it all over certain movements. In the comp movement you see it by telling the abused wife she must pray harder. She and God will change him. It is really never the abusers responsibility to change or even know right from wrong. It really is paralyzing.

    You may not believe this but those who profess Christ and then do evil actually choose where they spend eternity. God did not choose for them. They choose to use His name to do evil. We cannot save them. Only Christ can and HE did that at the cross/resurrection. I pray for protection of future victims myself.

    So if you understand so well about a “relationship with God” then you would understand how serious it is to look away from evil and injustice ESPECIALLY when it concerns those who are preachers/leaders in what passes for Christendom. You are basically saying that it is normal. I reject that.

    And it is insulting to tell a victim they are allowing emotions/feelings to rule their life. How about they are allowing justice and truth to rule? That is a HUGE difference but easier to accuse people of being “emotional”. That will marginalize them real quick. But I hope it does not work here. The problem with guys like you is that in the end you really do not care about future victims only yourself. If you did care, you would not have written what you did because you would understand how willfully blind it is . I don’t expect you to see it. So much of what passes for Christendom thinks like you.

    BTW: Here is a clue for you. When you have to pray for evil doers to change and those evil doers are pastors, you might not understand salvation.

    A great passage to understand this better is Hebrews 10. You might want to check the historical context. They were not being persecuted by FELLOW believers as you seem to think is ok. But here is the key part:

    26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    And don’t be fooled. Calling out evil and protecting victims is not seeking vengeance. It is basic justice and we are to expose the evil among us. Doing evil using the Name of Christ is serious business. Don’t protect it and blame the victim.

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40. I never saw Christ going after victims – – – ever. I thought as Christians that as we grow in Him, we are supposed to become more Christ-like.

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41. Your bitterness has taken root, deep within your inner being.
    There is so much to learn about having a relationship with God, love, grace and forgiveness are a huge part. Instead of lambasting Chuck Smith you should have been praying for him…

    I smell a Calvary Chapelite….

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42. Lydia, Your response to Ken, a newcomer here, and to others reading here, is clear and provides understanding. You gave ways to better discern the issues at hand and avoid the flawed concepts that keep people tromping around the same old thinking-pattern mountains. You help to challenge people’s ingrained Christianese thinking in order to see and compare what should be examined at a core level and not just be content with suggesting unexplored quick fixes–especially for victims. This is a place to separate the wheat from the chaff. It is a place for voices to be heard.

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43. Ken,

    What you posted at 7:33 is the emotional, spiritual and moral equivalent of having come across a rape victim who you proceed to blame for having failed to thwart the crime, who you belittle and condemn for suffering the natural consequences of her trauma, and who you then attempt to forever mark as “less than” by emptying your diarrhetic bowels all over her.

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44. This “praying for them” stuff has become an emotional crutch and cop out. Everyone says it about everything. Problem is, Jesus Christ vanquished evil for those who would repent and believe and God created us with the ability to actually choose right and wrong. So what is the problem? The problem is it is used as an excuse to give people who should know better a pass on their behavior. While the fall separated us from God it did not totally take away our ability to choose right and wrong.

    “Pray for them” sounds pious and people buy into it but I am thinking…why not do something?

    Not long ago I had a single mom and her child who literally escaped from the abusive husband staying with me until we could get them settled and SAFE. Do you know how many “Christians” told her to pray harder for him so he would quit beating her up? Do you know how many Christians said they would “pray” for her? But no one lifted a finger with anything tangible that actually helped her in her desperate situation. She wandered into our church one Sunday literally desperate after sleeping her in her car for two days with a two year old!. (Yes she had a church who was “praying” for her and also telling her to “pray” harder for the abuser) Still she sought out another church. That church she was in really thought they were being pious by talking to her about prayer. It literally makes me sick anymore. People need help, folks. Real feet on the ground help. And…we can pray while doing the tangible help. We can pray with our eyes open while doing.

    Grace cannot be “earned” but it does NOT MEAN NO EFFORT AT ALL.

    Ok, rant over. :o)

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45. I don’t know how others respond to criticism, but I take it with me as I’m out driving, shopping at the grocery store and it usually sends me deep and thinking, doing self-checks to see if my motives were right, asking myself if I posted because of anger or bitterness, etc. I appreciate the challenge because it does cause me to think deeper and that is good.

    Over the last 24 hours since Debbie’s comment and now Ken’s, I have not changed my mind on the posting of the article. I may lose friends or readers over it. But if this is a place where victim’s voices are heard, then it makes sense why it is appropriate here.

    Chuck Smith represents the primary person who could have put a stop to the abuse that Alex, his brothers, his friends, fellow church members/staff endured. Alex, when he put up his blog, became the recipient of even more stories of abuse. Alex didn’t just stuff it, he tried to seek justice for victims – to bring light to the stories, to let God’s church be God’s church, not run by corrupt, abusive wolves.

    We must stop idolizing church leaders. The reality is that Chuck Smith failed to be a godly shepherd. Yes, he had good points, but he did not have the heart of Christ in going after lost and hurting sheep when it meant he’d have to confront his pastor friends. He put his friendship status of pastors ahead of abused sheep. He had the opportunity to deal with these issues, but failed. This is part of Chuck Smith’s legacy.

    In death, we often look at the span of someone’s life and take home lessons to learn. This is a lesson that needs to be brought home in a real way: how many lost sheep now are struggling with their faith in God due to the fact that this church leader ignored, dismissed and even rebuked Alex for telling the truth? If you read CCA abuse site, you will read stories of people abandoning their faith due to spiritual abuse.

    Of course Alex has a response to Chuck’s death. It’s important for us to hear stories of how someone responds to something like this in an abusive church system. It may sound morbid, but I have even thought to myself: “how would I feel if CON died?” How would it affect me? Would I be happy or sad? I think in asking these kinds of questions we can find where our heart is.

    Knowing and reading Alex’s posts over the last year or so, I have never seen any ill-will directed to Chuck Smith or his family by Alex. I have seen him want justice for victims, I have seen him call Chuck Smith out for not dealing with the abuse or for the way in which he dealt with Alex. That is not evil. That is not ill-will. That is truth.

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46. This “praying for them” stuff has become an emotional crutch and cop out.

    Yes, this is what keeps a lot of abused wives in their violent marriages. If they just pray harder, then maybe God would change their husband’s heart.

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47. Michael Newnham of Phoenix Preacher is discussing the same thoughts we are discussing: http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=14088#comment-52780

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48. JA, Thanks for linking to Newham’s article. Of course, I strenuously disagree with him and that is ok. We can all agree to disagree as long as we aren’t telling victims to shut up or rebuking them with silly accusations. :o)

    Newham has taken on more determinist god tendencies as I have noticed for a while now which show up here:

    “When God chooses people to do great things in His name, He also often allows them to make big mistakes in the same, then lets both stand in testimony of His greatness and our weakness.”

    Not sure God “chooses” specific people to do “great” things for Him in the New Covenant. We can obey God’s commands and strive to do His will on earth as it is in heaven. None of us are “great” as in a caste system of Christianity.. Some are obedient. We are not to judge each other by the amount of our followers. In fact, such thinking of “greatness” for God is a huge sin trap for many celebs and their followers.

    I would not call what Chuck ignored a “mistake”, btw. It seems there is this need to make it all about what God is doing or not doing instead of what long time believers are responsible for doing or not doing. It really bothers me when people hide behind God.

    What I hear him saying is we cannot blame Chuck because he did “great things for God” and God “allowed” him to ignore evil done to precious children which was merely a “mistake”. I cannot tell you how much I have heard that same sentiment over the last 20 years about so many “great men of God”. I no longer buy into it. And I do wonder if it annoys God, too?

    I sometimes think of the prophets in the OT when this subject comes up. They were not part of the Priestly class (as they were mostly corrupt). They were usually outsiders who were not easily accepted and usually looked down upon. They withstood grueling treatment. They did not have it easy at all. And they were not considered to have “done great things for God”. They simply obeyed Him.

    Just another way to look at it, I suppose.

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49. Thanks Barb, unfortunately it comes from “experience”. :o(

    I think how we view the relationship between God and man is very important. If God is doing all the heavy lifting and thinking for us then what is our purpose as believers here and now?

    One reason why I like NT Wright these days is he is constantly speaking to this issue of what it means to be a believer here and now–I feel like I found a soul mate. :o)

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50. Ken,

    I don’t recall Alex asking for any advice. How easily you slipped into the role of a fixer, the one who has the answers for him. I find it cruel that you would ask him: ” I ask you this, where is the grace, the love and forgiveness in your life?”

    Do you know Alex personally? Is that why you question if he has grace, forgiveness & love? Or are you making huge assumptions about him?

    Then you state that you know that his bitterness has taken root, deep within his inner being. How the heck do you know that to be true?

    I hope you have the sense to apologize, you are not Jesus, HE alone knows our hearts.

    And frankly you really come across as sanctimonious.

    Humility doesn’t have to parade itself around naming how one prays for offenders with deep joy. How far you have come have has no bearing on where another person is at.
    You should have stopped at “I am so sorry for your pain, this pain you have been carrying for a long time.”

    All you did was rub salt in my wounds. Can’t speak for Alex.

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51. “When God chooses people to do great things in His name, He also often allows them to make big mistakes in the same, then lets both stand in testimony of His greatness and our weakness.”

    How many/much great things does one have to do in order to cancel out, have others overlook one’s big mistakes?

    What is the plumb line?

    At what point does doing good make doing bad okay? When is there ever a pass for wrong-doing (besides at the point of salvation were we decide to follow Jesus & not wrong-doing)? What are we teaching our children? Go do great things in His name & when you make big mistakes it’s ALL God’s plan? Yikes!

    If fellow Christians don’t understand the problem with this thinking & the connection to what’s being covered up & why in churches today, then we are in serious trouble. There should be zero confusion about this. Please become a Christian so you can get a forever pass to do wrong without regret, repentance, change, turning away from it? No growing in Christ-likeness expected? It seems we are in serious trouble.

    I am not perfect. The difference seems to be that I regret my mistakes. I haven’t forgotten them. I try to learn from them & not do them again. I can’t excuse them to a “weakness” sin nature. I am responsible for my actions. Is my thinking unbiblical? Should children not be taught this?

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52. “Pray for them” sounds pious and people buy into it but I am thinking…why not do something?

    Lydia, I learned from experience that “I’ll Pray For You(TM)” is Christianese for doing nothing. When I hear it, I respond with a paraphrase of a line from Babylon-5:

    “You have a saying: ‘I’ll Pray for You.’
    We also have a saying: ‘PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!'”

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53. What you posted at 7:33 is the emotional, spiritual and moral equivalent of having come across a rape victim who you proceed to blame for having failed to thwart the crime, who you belittle and condemn for suffering the natural consequences of her trauma, and who you then attempt to forever mark as “less than” by emptying your diarrhetic bowels all over her.

    Woo…
    Gary, I thought I was the one with the “baseball bat up side the head” imagery…

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54. “Instead of lambasting Chuck Smith you should have been praying for him. I pray for my offenders daily and there is an absolute joy that comes from it.”

    Ken, why the dichotomy? Why not rebuke, warn, call to repentance & right action & restoration AND pray? If that’s wrong, then the prophets were in sin? The reason for prophets: it had gotten to critical point where rebuke/warning were not issued on personal levels or warnings & call to right action & repentance were going unheeded. Basically, iron was not sharpening iron. Salt was loosing it’s properties. Lights were going out. Etc.

    We are to encourage each other to stay sharp, salty & bright. If that is evil, we’ve wandered off the right path & are headed in the wrong direction.

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55. JA, may I quote on Alex’s blog your 3rd and 7th paragraphs from your 9:34 AM post here? Not sure what the netiquette is for that but wanted to ask in case it’s bad form.

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56. Thanks HUG. Trouble is, I’ve likely only managed to feed Ken’s sanctimonious ego. Assuming he’s even watching, he’s no doubt spent the last several hours illogically congratulating his poor, “persecuted” self as one to whom this assurance of blessing most manifestly applies:

    “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake. . .” (Matthew 5:10a, ESV)

    Long sigh. There’s just no point trying to have a conversation with these people who think they have all the answers, but whose “truth” is utterly devoid of love.

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57. Have at it, i heart sheck!
    ~ja

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58. Yes, Gary, agreed and alas. This about sums it up:
    “There’s just no point trying to have a conversation with these people who think they have all the answers, but whose “truth” is utterly devoid of love.”

    This may be one of those meaningful words of advice for those who follow abuse blogs for personal insights for their situation.

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59. My grandmother died this year….she was an amazingly talented person, full of life. But she also could be extremely abusive, verbally and physically to her own family.

    At the funeral, we all shared our favorite memories and honored her service in the army during WWll. But after the service, many of us, including her own children, traded stories of her inexplicable cruelty and abusive outbursts. It wasn’t sugar coated and many honest, yet ugly incidents, were re-called as they remembered a woman they both loved but and sometimes even hated, at the same time.

    Relationships are almost never all good or all bad, and it will be different for different people. My memories of my Grandmother were mostly warm and sentimental. I was her favorite grandchild (her first) and I could do no wrong. But many of my cousins were not so lucky and endured much of the same abuse that my mom did.

    Just my two cents on remembering one who is passed and how it might relate to the different feelings and emotions over Chuck’s death.

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60. My support is withdrawn. I’m done.

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61. Debbie said: “My support is withdrawn. I’m done.”

    That’s a shame. We can’t agree to disagree?

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62. I stand with the hurt & the hurting, even if I’m the last one left standing. They are so misunderstood. The majority speak up because they long, yearn to see repentance & even reconciliation. That is christian. It would do us good to understand this. But most times they are told to be silent. Is the wrong-doer more valuable AKA higher on the hierarchical ladder to God?

    And we wonder why bullying is such as problem with children these days. Well, it’s been recognized as a “bully pulpit” at times for a reason. And so go the children. 😦

    Twice in the last few years I’ve watched my child at playground/park be firm with bullies older & taller in defense of other kids. Each time the group of kids backed down. How can I not do the same for those hurt by leaders in the church? We are obligated to stand, help & support those who need it, IMO.

    May the hurting take comfort in the sermon on the mount. Matthew 5 is from the mouth of Jesus himself.

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63. Julie Anne: Not on this. This is too offensive and wounding to those who are mourning Chuck Smith’s passing. Victims have no right to be this cruel, no matter what they have been through. The internet is running amok and I just can’t stand by and act as if it is OK. It’s not. It’s terribly wrong.

    A Mom: You say you stand with the hurting. Well the ones hurting right now are Chuck Smith’s family. It would have been good, right, to remain silent. Say nothing. Later on, something could have been said when the wounds of his death were not so fresh for the family. In my opinion, this is an excuse. I stand with the hurting too. I stand with survivors and victims. But…there is also just good common sense, decency that even victims have to use. You can’t just do whatever you want, not caring who you hurt. That’s destructive and does not advance healing by hurting another needlessly. It is not something Christ would do, and no amount of saying he would makes it so. Show me in scripture where this is OK. Not to say anything when someone has just died, where the family and his congregation are mourning his death and are wounded because of it would have been the decent thing to do.,Death is one of the most difficult things for a family/spouse to endure, even Christians. We are human. This is simply beyond my process of decency. This goes beyond words. For once I am speechless.

    To inflict pain on Chuck Smith’s family is beyond anything I could or would do and I’m pretty gutsy.

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64. Debbie Kaufman calls for Scripture. We can start here:

    10 The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance;
    he will bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked.
    11 Mankind will say, “Surely there is a reward for the righteous;
    surely there is a God who judges on earth.” (Psalm 58:10-11, ESV)

    Or, inasmuch as Alex relates haughty words spoken against him, all of Psalm 109 could be said to apply. I quote the Psalm in part:

    6 Appoint a wicked man against him;
    let an accuser stand at his right hand.
    7 When he is tried, let him come forth guilty;
    let his prayer be counted as sin!
    8 May his days be few;
    may another take his office!
    9 May his children be fatherless
    and his wife a widow!
    10 May his children wander about and beg,
    seeking food far from the ruins they inhabit!
    11 May the creditor seize all that he has;
    may strangers plunder the fruits of his toil!
    12 Let there be none to extend kindness to him
    nor any to pity his fatherless children!
    13 May his posterity be cut off;
    may his name be blotted out in the second generation!
    (Psalm 109:6-13, ESV)

    In comparison, what Alex has written is quite restrained. Alex is to be commended, not condemned. Besides, as has already been pointed out, Chuck Smith’s family isn’t reading this. This blog is being read by, and exists for, people who have been subjected to great harm by the acts and omissions of men like Chuck Smith.

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65. Gary: That is taking scripture totally out of context. Read again who these verses are speaking about. This is precisely what I am against and what I cannot condone. This is vengeance pure and simple. It is cruel. A man has died. His family has a right to grieve without this cruelty. You are using verses in precisely the same manner you claim was done to you or others. The Bible is not a weapon Gary. All of it points to Christ and our need for a Savior from Genesis to Revelation. I understand anger. But there are times even anger must be restrained in order to do the decent thing. I do not understand cruelty.

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66. Gary: This is out in the open for anyone to read. It is a great responsibility. You have no idea if this blog is and will be read by the Smith family or not. The internet is a place that news travels very fast all over the world.

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67. Debbie

    You are totally off base on this. The man was controversial in his approach to a number of things and his family was aware of that, including his selective oversight of Calvary Chapel churches — there when he wanted, and not if he didn’t, and the effect was to protect some evil people, including Alex’s father, who was an abuser, sexual and physical, as well as emotional, of children, and who also abused some church members.

    Would you have told the press not to report the truth about Nixon after his death, just so his family could mourn without a reminder of that evil? I hope not.

    The family benefited from this man’s activities. They can choose what to read and what to avoid. The victims have a right to point out that the man was not a saint, but committed and/or allowed or condoned evil. If they did it at his funeral, it would be grossly inappropriate. But to do it in the media is not. “The good men do dies with them; the evil lives on and on.”

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68. The Bible doesn’t sugar coat things or cover them up. The great King David’s life went downhill after he did nothing about Amnon’s rape of Tamar.

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69. I have to say I am in agreement with Debbie-this is not the right timing to delve into the wrongs of Chuck Smith. Chuck Smith is not going anywhere-he is dead and there is always another day to go into these things. Even if the family do not see this, it is out of respect for them to not have to say anything.
    I understand the sentiments of those here about this man, I have had a brief encounter with a Calvary Chapel church and had to confront the pastor with Calvary Chapels doctrines and wrongs the “mother” church was doing in the name of Christ.
    I just think that this could have been put off for another day. I also think it not beneficial for those to get worked up and angry at those who don’t agree, like Debbie.
    She is speaking out of concern for this blog and its author.

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70. Debbie said:

    Gary: This is out in the open for anyone to read. It is a great responsibility. You have no idea if this blog is and will be read by the Smith family or not. The internet is a place that news travels very fast all over the world.

    And if they do read it, they will be reminded that there are many people still hurting and there is unfinished business. This is part of Chuck Smith’s legacy, too. People have been abandoned spiritually, emotionally, etc. Maybe by reading this, they would be in a position to tell other CC leaders: what is all of this about?

    You weren’t the only one who had a problem with this post and based on the couple who contacted me, I added a disclaimer at the top. This place is not a Chuck Smith fan club site, it’s primary purpose is for abuse survivors. I think it is a perfect place to read about how a survivor tries to make sense of the death of someone who while being good in many ways, also failed to go after the 1 sheep of the fold, leaving the sheep harmed and defenseless. This lines up perfectly with the blog’s intent.

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71. According to what Alex has written, Chuck Smith chose to enable great evil. Worse, Smith appears to have, in a very public way, reveled in the anticipation of what God was supposedly about to do to Alex. HUG recalls “Alex relating how Papa Chuck Smith would crow about “God Hath Struck Him Down” whenever any of HIS enemies were diagnosed with cancer. How God cursed them with Cancer for their Blasphemy and Heresy.” If these things are true, the passages I have quoted from Psalms are spot on. Please don’t try the old taking-it-out-of-context ploy on me. It will not shut me down.

    As to the possibility that Smith’s family will read this, that would be their choice. I hope they will wait, but I do also hope they will at some appropriate point find the courage to make themselves fully aware of the destruction Smith has left in his wake. If they will be the continuing beneficiaries of Smith’s religious kingdom, as I think very likely, they need also to be confronted with their responsibility to repair the emotional, spiritual and moral damage for which their patriarch is responsible.

    Debbie, you are with us. I respect your differing opinion on the matter of timing. I know it will be difficult for you to hear from one who has not been gentle with you. However, please let me suggest that this is a matter on which we can agree to disagree. If you deem it appropriate to remain silent at this time, so be it. Nobody should condemn you for your silence. On the other hand, if there are are others who must give voice to trauma-driven grief, and even if you cannot support them in this moment, surely it is nevertheless appropriate to withhold judgment.

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72. Trust4himonly: Thanks for speaking up and sharing your opinion. There is a part of me that says that I could have waited to post this, but the other side of me says that Alex and others are victims and Pastor Chuck’s passing is also affecting them, too. Is it right to ignore or abandon what they are surely going through right now?

    In essence what I’m saying is that by not posting this now, are we saying to the victims that they don’t have the right to have those feelings now – – their timing is wrong? That’s what I’m up against and if this blog’s purpose is to be a sounding board for survivors, then it is serving that purpose. There are CC survivors who read here.

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73. Chuck Smith, Sr., was a celebrity Christian, otherwise there would be no obituaries for him in prominent Christian media. He placed himself and Calvary Chapel at the center of numerous controversies — theologically, organizationally, personally. It’s understandable that questions get raised and reactions get questioned in the aftermath of the death.

    • Should this material have been posted now?
    • Is it an unwarranted added burden to the family?
    • Couldn’t this have waited while they grieved?
    • What about those who say they suffered at the hands of Chuck Smith?
    • Why must they remain silent?
    • What does that suggest about what they experienced?

    If Pastor Smith were not in the public eye, I doubt these would even be much of an issue. However, Pastor Smith put Calvary Chapel into the public forum for scrutiny, and certain actions and inactions by himself and other leaders of the Calvary Chapel system have long raised issues about propriety — and not just in the situation of Alex Grenier. Thus, Pastor Smith himself long ago created debate about what would and should be his legacy.

    While the starkness of the responses to Chuck Smith’s death by Calvary Chapel abuse survivors may seem heartless to Smith’s family and those who seek to shield them, the reality is, a substantial amount of documentation and analysis of the alleged perpetration of spiritual abuse has stood online for a long time. The ability to challenge such allegations and conclusions has been present for many, many months. (For instance, see the compilation at the Grenier Defamation Lawsuit Archive on Alex’s Calvary Chapel Abuse blog.) What is coming to the surface now is merely a more emotional continuation of the same public process of documentation and debate that has gone on for years.

    Now that Pastor Smith has passed on, it is natural that the emphasis shifts for a while from the factual to the emotional, as those who survive him in every sense of that word consider his impact, for good or for ill. I suggest we let all people affected by Pastor Smith’s life do what they need to, to process his passing and respond … and let there sift out from this public exchange on a public figure a truthfully balanced legacy, instead of partial information, misinformation, and/or disinformation.

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74. “My support is withdrawn. I’m done”

    Sorry but Debbie always says this then cannot stop commenting and rebuking. Seen it since 2006 on a variety of blogs where she is the rebuke matron. She does not discuss or even debate. She “declares and rebukes”, Convos are not possible. I am just amazed she has not brought up how she took Ergun Caner down. After all, he is much worse than those who protect child molesters. That is her claim to fame

    Oh, and only Debbie understands scripture correctly from the “Founders” point of view. The same folks who promote using deception to take churches Calvinist with Quiet Revolution.

    You guys can coddle her but I have seen it for too many years. She is always allowed to insult and rebuke but gets very thin skinned if she gets the same.

    If Debbie really believes the doctrine she espouses she would remember that she believes that God controls every molecule which means He was controlling this post to be written and the subsequent comments. So rebuking people here is rebuking God who is controlling it. But Calvinists never live out day to day what they claim to believe.

    And yes folks, I have seen her say many times on many blogs she believes God controls every molecule.

    “I also think it not beneficial for those to get worked up and angry at those who don’t agree, like Debbie.
    She is speaking out of concern for this blog and its author.”

    How do you know that for sure? By words on a blog? Have you been conversing with her since 2006? Debbie is looking for things to rebuke on the discernment blogs that discuss Calvinism and her hero’s or enemies. She is playing her old Ergun Caner game. You guys can play, I will not. I won’t even be nice about it. Seen it too long.

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75. Oh and she usually gets a pass because she goes to Wade’s church.

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76. Brad, that is it. If you sought to be a Christian Celebrity, you are going to be discussed in life and in death. Period. That was the whole point, in life, right, to be well known? Sheesh!

    So is it a sin to discuss or a sin to seek to be a Christian celebrity powerhouse? :o)

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77. “The Bible doesn’t sugar coat things or cover them up. The great King David’s life went downhill after he did nothing about Amnon’s rape of Tamar.”

    You would think that tawdry scene in what happened when he was dying would have been left out. Of course many pastors use that to prove how sin is ok by great men.

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78. She is speaking out of concern for this blog and its author.

    Yes I am as well as those who are grieving a death. I have a deep respect for Julie Anne.

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79. Lydia, I want to be careful not to make this personal here with regard to readers who hold different opinions. Let’s try to keep it to the content as much as possible.

    That said, you got me thinking. You know, I rarely think about the Calvinist thing when I’m writing posts. So, how would a Calvinist see my post? (I’m merely trying to understand and if this goes to debate, we’ll take it to the Calvinist thread.) Did I choose to write this post? Or was it part of God’s Sovereign plan? How does this work?

    I think the Calvary Chapel people (Arminians) would say that I chose to write this post and so they would have a legitimate gripe with me if they thought I was off on the timing.

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80. Yes I am as well as those who are grieving a death. I have a deep respect for Julie Anne.

    Thank you, Debbie, I appreciate that. I really do. There is room for differing opinions even when we respect people. That is so important and something that we did not get in abusive churches. That is one of the things my dear friend, Michelle, and I talk about – – – that we can have diverse opinions and have such deep love and respect for each other. It’s a beautiful thing. It doesn’t mean relationship has to be cut off.

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81. Thank you Gary, but this is more than a difference of opinion. Much more. This goes beyond the pale of wrong. A later date would have not produced this reaction in me.

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82. Debbie said:

    Thank you Gary, but this is more than a difference of opinion. Much more. This goes beyond the pale of wrong. A later date would have not produced this reaction in me.

    How much later, Debbie? Who decides when it is appropriate and why do they get to decide that?

    . . . . . . . . once again . . . . . . this death represents something very emotional for victims. By remaining silent, you are forcing them to fact this emotional upheaval alone. Why is there no concern for them and their feelings? Why must they always be the ones abandoned? ugh, Debbie. I’m trying to go “there” with you, but good grief, this stuff drives me crazy.

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83. Julie Anne

    Write away girl – right away – I for one am glad you posted.
    I love your heart and explanation – and giving those abused a voice…
    And certainly, giving differing opinions to ALL here a voice…
    Is a breath of fresh air. You are to be commended for asking…

    “Why is there no concern for them and their feelings?”
    “Why must they always be the ones abandoned?”

    Heck – I have a polish Uncle who taught me everything I know…
    And even I can figure this out…

    If you do NOT want to offend the family at this time? – Be still – Be quite…
    Just wait for a better time to offend the family… 😉

    Does anyone really believe Chucks family, or any of his supporters…
    cares one bit what is said here? What is said on any blog? – Or obituary?

    They have lived with the controversy for years – this is nothing new.

    And – Does anyone really believe that Chuck Smith cares what is said here?

    If Chuck Smith is with Jesus? – He certainly doesn’t care – Would you? 😉

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84. Here are just a few obituaries for Chuck Smith
    That choose to report – Some Good and Some – NOT so Good.
    ———-
    Los Angeles Times
    http://www.latimes.com/obituaries/la-me-1004-chuck-smith-20131004,0,7276715.story

    “…The congregation grew quickly, but its membership skyrocketed after he met a hitchhiking hippie, Lonnie Frisbee, who brought dozens of his hippie friends to Bible studies….”

    “…Smith’s church at times drew **controversy,** as in its treatment of Frisbee after it emerged that Frisbee was gay; Smith was accused of then downplaying his role…”

    ***(Here Smith turns over radio station to “one of his proteges, Mike Kestler” – Who preached at Calvary Chapel in Twin Falls, Idaho, and had been “ACCUSED by female churchgoers of making SEXUAL ADVANCES. – **One of Kestler’s accusers said she felt ABANDONED. )

    “…In recent years, the church was also embroiled in a legal battle over control of its multimillion-dollar network of radio stations. On one side was Smith. On the other was **one of his proteges, Mike Kestler,** who preached at a Calvary Chapel in Twin Falls, Idaho, and had been accused by female churchgoers of making sexual advances.

    When Smith said he planned to surrender much of the radio empire to Kestler in what he characterized as a Christian gesture, **one of Kestler’s accusers said she felt abandoned.**”

    “Smith was known ***for reading divine retribution into current events,*** such as earthquakes and the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, and he saw apocalyptic portents in the depravity of mankind and the various crises in the Middle East.”

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85. Here are just a few obituaries for Chuck Smith
    That choose to report – Some Good and Some – NOT so Good.

    —————-

    Charisma News
    http://www.charismanews.com/us/41231-chuck-smith-calvary-chapel-founder-loses-lung-cancer-battle

    “Smith’s ministry didn’t come without **controversy.** In his 1978 book End Times, Smith predicted that the world would end by 1981. In his book Future Survival, he said, “[I] could be wrong, but it’s a deep conviction in my heart and all my plans are predicated on that belief.”

    When the world didn’t end in 1981, many followers left his church.”

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86. Here are just a few obitaries for Chuck Smith
    That choose to report – Some Good and Some – NOT so Good.

    ———————-

    World Mag
    http://www.worldmag.com/2013/10/chuck_smith_86_dies_of_cancer

    “As with many Christian leaders, Smith wasn’t without his **controversies.** Standing by the independence of member congregations, he became embroiled in what **many called his lax reactions** to financial and sexual misconduct of some **authoritative pastors.**

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87. Brad said:

    Now that Pastor Smith has passed on, it is natural that the emphasis shifts for a while from the factual to the emotional, as those who survive him in every sense of that word consider his impact, for good or for ill. I suggest we let all people affected by Pastor Smith’s life do what they need to, to process his passing and respond … and let there sift out from this public exchange on a public figure a truthfully balanced legacy, instead of partial information, misinformation, and/or disinformation.

    Brad, excellent comment! Long time no “see!”

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88. Debbie states, “Thank you Gary, but this is more than a difference of opinion. Much more. This goes beyond the pale of wrong.”

    So Lydia’s warnings posted at 7:56 AM prove to be well founded. Thank you, Lydia, for the heads up.

    Julie Anne asks, ” So, how would a Calvinist see my post?” I don’t know, but it seems that those who have come here do so for the purpose of rebuking. Maybe, by accusing us, they are really only attempting to assure themselves of the correctness of their doctrine of total depravity, the first point on the TULIP pentagram of Calvinist ideology.

    Yet I do not think these concerns exist with regard to only Calvinism. Paul Dohse, at paulspassingthoughts (link on sidebar to right) seems to be making the case that we need to concerned whenever somebody is coming from the point of view of ANY system with its own non-negotiable orthodoxy. Orthodoxy proceeds from and works hand in hand with religious caste systems (hierarchies of ecclesiastical authority, gurus/experts, the anointed vs the unwashed and benighted sheeple, patriarchy?). My apologies to Paul if I am not entirely getting what he is saying in these regards–it will require a good deal more effort on my part before I am confident that I am understanding him.

    One does not need to fully understand Paul D. to recognize that the privileges and power associated with higher caste echelons must be defended and, therefore, orthodoxy must be imposed. This helps to explain why the doctrinaire only wish to be heard, never to listen. It helps to understand why the proponents of religious systems of thought are so quick to condemn, attack and, generally, attempt to impose their will.

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89. “Lydia, I want to be careful not to make this personal here with regard to readers who hold different opinions. ”

    Debbie made it personal with her first comment. And she always comes in with a machine gun firing. Guess you are right though, handle her with kid gloves and let her spout her rebukes, claim her scriptural expertise and try to talk her down off the high horse…..until next time.

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90. JA, Your post had nothing to do with Calvinism. I was referring to how Debbie handles ANY disagreement with Non Cals and blogs that take on Calvinist doctrine or post something by a non Cal that Debbie has targeted as an enemy. There is a pattern I have seen for years.

    I have no idea if Chuck Smith was an Arminian or not. Celebrity Christians come in all shapes and sizes.

    My point, which I probably did not make well from the first, has been this is not about what we think. It is about Alex and all the other victims of spiritual abuse or worse that came out of Calvary Chapel. I cannot help but be testy when folks come here trying to shut them up…again! As if that has not been their entire life!

    Brad nailed it. If they lived their life seeking to be well known and build huge systems then what happened in that quest is fair game.

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91. Debbie made it personal with her first comment. And she always comes in with a machine gun firing.

    Lydia, point well taken and I think it’s funny that when someone personally challenges me, I seem to dismiss it as being “personal.” But you’re right – – it was definitely personal and I was stewing about it all day. No joke – – even as I was looking at jackets at Ross Dress for Less – lol.

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92. Lydia: I know my post had nothing to do with Calvinism, but I just wonder how my post would be viewed in light of the theology to a Calvinist. Would a Calvinist think that I have the choice to make this post? Would a Calvinist think that it was God’s will that it was posted? Was it in His plan? I don’t know enough about all that Calvinist stuff to understand how a Calvinist might view this.

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93. “One does not need to fully understand Paul D. to recognize that the privileges and power associated with higher caste echelons must be defended and, therefore, orthodoxy must be imposed. This helps to explain why the doctrinaire only wish to be heard, never to listen. It helps to understand why the proponents of religious systems of thought are so quick to condemn, attack and, generally, attempt to impose their will.”

    Bingo!

    I will be the first to admit I tend to “overcorrect” after coming away from the doctrinaires who declare and rebuke. Yes, I need to listen to them, too. But give me some time as I did that for far too long finally realizing they do not care about another view as they are always right. Doctrine over people. And “some people” over other people.

    Right now, I have a lot to make up for and my focus is listening to the sacred stories of those abused by those doctrinaires who had power and abused it. So all I can do is ask for forgiveness for not being more warm and fuzzy with the doctrinaires. It is just that when you know the game it is hard to be silent. I was on the other side of the fence at one time and I can assure you the doctrinaires are the first ones to call someone “unloving”. It is amazing, that.

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94. “Lydia, point well taken and I think it’s funny that when someone personally challenges me, I seem to dismiss it as being “personal.” But you’re right – – it was definitely personal and I was stewing about it all day. No joke – – even as I was looking at jackets at Ross Dress for Less – lol. ”

    Take long baths, it is cheaper. Except when you succumb to buying pricey salts.

    Look this stuff does not have to be personal. Why not simply come to discuss why it is ok or not to discuss this?

    You know, there is a whole psychology going on when your abuser or someone who protected your abuser dies. How do victims deal with such unfinished business never to be “finished”? That is one thing but what about when they were ALSO a “Christian” celeb and everyone is singing their praises in the Christian media? That has to be tough and LONELY.

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95. Lydia –

    There is no place for a woman of my stature to take a comfy bath in this house. Maybe some day – ha!

    Oh, and we needed jackets. It’s just this funny thing about the blog – – it just manages to go shopping with me 🙂

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96. “There is no place for a woman of my stature to take a comfy bath in this house. Maybe some day – ha! ”

    I hear you!

    And btw: If a Calvinist is honest and living out their Calvinism on a daily basis they would not bother rebuking anyone –ever. You are either controlled by God or Satan and since God controls Satan (He is controlling every molecule 24/7) in their construct it is a moot point.

    What you ask is one reason I get such a huge chuckle out of Calvin, their hero. Going to church was mandatory in Geneva. See, The elder decided if you were saved or not (Dever’s keys to the kingdom) and church attendance was an indicator for them even though it was against the law to NOT attend. How is that for cognitive dissonance? The magistrates would come to your home to admonish you. I think you could get a pass if you were on your death bed. (This is why church discipline has become so popular with 9Marks, Driscoll, SGM, Founders…a way to control people)

    So if God is controlling everything then why make it mandatory? Or did God appoint Calvin to control people for Him and tell him who was saved or not? This is what most of the YRR teach.

    So to ask how they view your post, their construct would have to make some semblance of logical sense and it doesn’t. You have nothing to do with your sanctification but you are responsible for your total depravity. Makes NO sense.

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97. The critics of this blog post seems to assume that Chuck Smith’s family and staff know nothing about this junk and that we are discussing something shocking and new.

    High-ranking staff at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa know about this — and a whole lot more. The battles behind the scenes for power, the radio station, the devotion to end-times Dispensational views that kept Chuck Smith from developing a succession plan.

    Many staff people have quietly left so they don’t have to watch the implosion of this ministry, and so that they have jobs after the meltdown. Outwardly they are slappy-clappy-happy, but behind closed doors they express their concerns.

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98. “I will be the first to admit I tend to “overcorrect” after coming away from the doctrinaires who declare and rebuke. Yes, I need to listen to them, too.”

    As to overcorrecting, I haven’t noticed it to have been a fault of yours. Then again, I’m the one who posted the defecating-on-victims comment yesterday. Maybe one should try to distinguish between the doctrinaires and the merely deceived, and respond accordingly. Still, I’m not inclined to cut much slack for ANYBODY whose words or actions serve to further wound the wounded.

    As to the “need to listen to them too,” I’m thinking it makes sense to do this on a continuing basis only when talking to those who are merely deceived, which NEVER includes anybody who claims to occupy an elevated position in in the religious hierarchy/caste system. There may be hope of freeing the merely deceived from the satanic verses, as it were, of whatever orthodoxy holds them captive. However, once one has been identified as a doctrinaire, further listening will be futile. Their words mean nothing. Their words are only weapons wielded in an assaultive attempt to impose their orthodoxy and their control. The words we speak to them will be wasted on them. Words spoken to the doctrinaire must be only for the consumption of those who are looking on. Even when speaking to them, we must actually only be speaking about them. We should not expect to be heard by those who are not listening, by those who only pretend to listen by way of gaining permission to further thrust their lying words at us.

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99. “As to the “need to listen to them too,” I’m thinking it makes sense to do this on a continuing basis only when talking to those who are merely deceived, which NEVER includes anybody who claims to occupy an elevated position in in the religious hierarchy/caste system. ”

    Gary,

    Your entire comment follows along the theme Paul was outlining in 1 Tim 1. I tend to forget it at precisely the time I should not. There are those who are deceived out of ignorance and those who deceive on purpose. Paul never names the former (because he was one at one time!) but names the latter— specifically Hy and Al.

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100. Faith (t4ho),

     I’m a bit conflicted too, wanting to be respectful and honorable toward everyone at all times—and realizing this gives the appearance of evil as Alex seems not to be respecting or honoring the memory of Chuck Smith—However, this I know: Alex has a special vanguard position on the spiritual war against antichrist elements in the Calvary Chapel system. For that reason I regard Alex’ “memorial” a good war strategy, something I’ve chosen to get behind.

     Alex is fighting an enormous evil power which has spread its soul-sucking tentacles out across the planet like a voracious octopus. The death of the head of this octopus will spawn any number of similar octopi—variations on a theme of Chuck Smith’s Moses scheme.

     And so as one dismembers a starfish to only have its fragments reproduce more starfish, so will be the effects of Calvary Chapel’s inevitable dismemberment.

     If the now deceased head of this “independent” ecclesiastical empire would have spoken up and made right his wrongs (changed the code or DNA of the beast) he could have made an enormous difference toward correcting the systemic abuses flourishing within the Calvary Chapel system.

     We have personal knowledge of the abuses and abusers the Moses mindset has opened the church up to. Even James MacDonald and Mark Driscoll has set themselves up as Moseses in the manner of CC Pastors.

     As C. S. Lewis says, “Good and evil both increase at compound interest. That is why the little decisions you and I make every day are of such infinite importance.”

     Here’s one of the “little decisions” that Chuck Smith made which was an egregious transgression against (the will of) God. In defiance of Scripture he ordained a mere babe in Christ to be a Pastor of one of his Calvary Chapel franchises—I’m speaking of Bob Grenier of Visalia California (Alex’ step-father).

     Scripture says, “An overseer must not be a recent convert, or he may become puffed up with conceit and fall into the condemnation of the devil” (1 Tim 3:6).

     Look at the exponential effects of evil resulting from just this one sinful decision Chuck Smith made. You now have Wolf Bob Grenier operating CCV as a cult—a monstrous conceited man overseeing his own mini kingdom of bob. Where are the watchmen of the flock of God who will take action toward delivering the blind sheep from these houses of bondage?

     Now where the timing of this may appear evil, I believe it provides all of us an opportunity to graciously tell our stories in the hopes that many of the scales of lies would be washed away from the eyes of those believers still trapped by the liars (and complexity of lies) upholding the CC mindset.

     The sheep must awake!

     On the day of Chuck Smith’s passing Alex’ Calvary Chapel Abuse blog hosted over a thousand visitors at a clip, all over the map, nearing the six million all time hit mark. That is a lot of exposure, and goes to show just how big and global the CC machine has become!

     This is a war for the minds and souls of the many believers in bondage to the lies of the adversary, which are some of the lies Chuck Smith helped to put into action.

     David

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101. In war—timing is everything!

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