Doctrine as “God”: C.J. Mahaney and Apathy of Celebrity Peers

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medium_3544056862I’ve been wrong.  I’ve had the wrong focus.  For me, the Sovereign Grace Ministries fiasco has always been about the sex abuse victims, the spiritual abuse, the women whose voices were silenced, the cover-up of pedophiles, the forced reconciliations, failure to notify authorities (civil, that is), etc.  You see, my focus is not right where it should be according to them.  It should be on doctrine.  Everybody must get on board with the right doctrine.  That is the common goal among these folks.

I skimmed SGMSurvivor blog and found this paragraph tucked away in a comment and said BINGO:

The last paragraph of this comment:

I said this before and I’ll say it again. All they see is a guy who “single handedly” ( sorry Brent, Boisvert, etc, I know that isn’t true) took a whole lot of Arminian charismatics and turned them into respectful Calvinists, and ruled 100+ churches into doing whatever he said. Drop apostles, they drop apostles. Change position on tongues, they change positions. Write up a presbyterian type Book of Church order, they write it up. CJ is like a hero to these people. Thye would give their right arm and leg to have his magic power over masses of sheep.

In their eyes, C.J. Mahaney masterminded the impossible.   C.J. had the power and influence to shift the doctrinal beliefs of an entire church organization.  That is amazing.  It is true that doctrine is a foundational issue.  I agree that it is important.  But I think for these guys, it is THE issue.  Nothing comes between them and their doctrine – obviously not even sex abuse.  The abuse in their minds must be just a minor oversight.   It will get taken care of.  The bigger picture is that everybody is on board with the right doctrine because that is what God would want  — -to heck with a little toddler getting sexually abused.  As long as they have the right doctrine, it will all work out.  I mean, life is only temporary on earth, if they have the right doctrine, they have the rest of eternity with God.  The abuse is minor in the full scheme of things.

We’ll see what the courts think about that.

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photo credit: Toban B. via photopin cc

266 comments on “Doctrine as “God”: C.J. Mahaney and Apathy of Celebrity Peers

  1. Wesley
    And – As a personal favor – can you please call me Amos – NOT AAL

    Thanks it’s only one more letter. 😉

    Like

  2. No problem. Amos it is.

    The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. (1 Peter 5:1-4)

    In this passage Peter was convinced that there were some people who were engaged in the ministry of pastor/elder/bishop.

    We are not being intellectually honest if we are to assume that God gave pastors to the churches but there were no people who assumed the position or that God gave instructions on what to look for in bishops to be appointed in the churches and no bishops were appointed in the churches.

    I don’t believe God made a mistake when He gave the ministry of pastor to the churches. I don’t think it is a matter of trusting those who engage in the pastoral ministry but of trusting in the God who gave them as a gift to the churches.

    Sorry about the wrong name. I like Amos better myself.

    Like

  3. Amos,

    To add to what Wesley said, see also what Ephesians 4:11-13 says. “So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”

    These verses echo some of the same sentiment as 1 Peter 5:1-4. In addition, it seems to me that there are pastors AND apostles. These could be the same position, but not necessarily so. The disciples didn’t need to call themselves pastors when they were apostles.

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  4. Wesley

    I’ve asked this before…

    —————–

    As I said – I do NOT trust pastors – You are NOT helping in my recovery.

    You write…
    “I do believe that people were taking the title of pastor/elder/bishop
    in the early church “

    Well, maybe I have NOT explained myself properly…

    In the Bible? – NOT your personal beliefs…

    Can you name one of His Disciples with the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend?

    —————–

    I know this is a tough question to answer – but – give it a try – please…

    Like

  5. Amos,

    As to the qualifications for these positions (pastor/elder/bishop), I agree with the definitions you gave for just, holy, and blameless, but I also realize that the only one that fulfills these PERFECTLY, is Christ. Since God did give some to the church to be in these positions, and knowing that no human is perfect, it follows logically, that we cannot expect for these people to fulfill every qualification perfectly 100% of the time.

    Like

  6. Wesley – JoeJoe

    JoeJoe writes…
    “My point is, pastors are still people, who make mistakes, struggle with various aspects of their lives, sin, and can feel hurt.”

    Yeah – They do make mistakes – They do sin – and they should go do something else…
    I’m tired of them “Making their Mistakes” on me. 😦
    And other defensless Sheep.

    Power Corrupts – and absoulute power corrupts absolutly…

    Even the best intentioned guys…
    Maybe that’s why these very tough qualification you want to “Ignore.”

    Like

  7. Wesley

    You write…
    “What appears to be “your problem” with the qualifications for this ministry is that you seem to be expecting perfection instead of continuous growth”

    Well, I can NOT find “Continuos Growth” as a part of these tough quaifications.
    And that seems to be your persanal opinion – NOT based on – 1 Tim or Titus.

    Are you saying you do NOT meet these tough qualifications as written?

    Seems you are conferming my past experiences with pastor/elder/overseers
    Who “Ignore” Or “Twist” what it says in 1 Tim 3 and Titus. Thanks for sumptin…

    So, I’ll ask again…
    So, I’m asking JoeJoe and Wesley again…
    “Was wondering – Have you guys ever researched the qualifications…”
    “Would you share your standards for pastor/elder/overseer. – From Titus.”

    Titus 1:6-8 KJV
    6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
    having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 For *a bishop must be blameless,* as the steward of God; not selfwilled,
    not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
    8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;

    ————–

    Here is what I found – In Titus – When I checked the Greek – It is Written…

    1 – For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless.*

    That “Must Be” is a lagal term – Leaving NO wriggle room.
    That *must be* is the same Greek word as: …You *must be* born again. John 3:7.
    *Must Be* is Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
    Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.

    2 – Just
    Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
    Thayers – 1) righteous, observing divine laws
    1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
    1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
    1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
    is wholly conformed to the will of God,

    3 – Holy
    Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
    Thayers – 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
    religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.

    —————–

    Are you saying you do NOT meet the qualifications as written?

    And are trying to ADD to the scritures “Continuos Growth”
    as a part of these tough quaifications? So you can fit in?

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  8. Amos,

    You are still committing the same fallacy. You are placing the burden of perfection on pastors. To expect perection of anybody is devoid of grace. That is why Christ came to be our sacrifice for us. God knew that he could not expect us to meet the standard of perfection, so he made another way…grace through Christ’s death.

    Knowing that people cannot meet the standard of absolute perfection, and knowing that God gave some to have these positions, it MUST follow that we cannot expect perfection from these people, but growth in their relationship with the Lord, ie, santification.

    Like

  9. JoeJoe

    Thanks for the reply – I mean that…

    You write…
    “ Since God did give some to the church to be in these positions,
    and knowing that no human is perfect,
    **it follows logically,**
    that we cannot expect for these people to fulfill
    every qualification perfectly 100% of the time.”

    **it follows logically,** Hmmm? Depends on who’s logic we are interested in.

    To me **it follows logically,**
    if these wanna-bees do NOT qualify they should go do something else.

    You write @ MAY 9, 2013 @ 1:05 PM….
    ““My point is, pastors are still people, who make mistakes,
    struggle with various aspects of their lives, sin, and can feel hurt.”

    Yeah – They do make mistakes – They do sin – and they should go do something else…
    I’m tired of them “Making their Mistakes” on me. 😦
    And other defensless Sheep. Who suffer horribly – for long years – NO Stop it…

    Well – Power Corrupts – and absoulute power corrupts absolutly… Yes?
    And todays pastors are big on Exercising Authority, Lording it over God’s heritage.

    Just having that “Title” separates them from the common folks.
    And gives them Power – over the people – That’s what “Title” do.

    They are the Clergy – We are the Lay People. – Is that In the Bible?
    They are the Leaders – We are the Followers. – NO more Following Jesus…

    And many, yes many – like the Power – Profit – Prestige that come with the “Title.”

    How many “Mistakes?” How much “Spiritual Abuse” is acceptable to you?

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  10. JoeJoe

    To you it looks like a fallacy – I understand

    And I know it’s tough for folks to admit their pastor does NOT Qualify.

    So I say – Your fallacy is – there “Must BE” pastor/elder/overseers – NO matter what – Damn the qualifications… Or, “Ignore” them… Or “Twist” them….

    Don’t know “IF” you ever Noticed – In Titus – Paul leaves Titus “a way out.”

    A way where Titus does NOT have to ordain anyone as an elder/overseer
    “IF” they do NOT qualify according to this tough list.

    Titus 1:5-7 KJV
    5… and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
    6 *IF* any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
    having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 **For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
    not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
    8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;

    Don’t know if you have noticed this – But…
    In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus, …ordain elders in every city.
    BUT – In verse 6, Paul “Introduces a Condition”
    “Before” Titus ordains anyone – by saying…

    5… and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
    6 – *IF* any “be blameless.”

    This is a very large, little, word: *IF.*
    This *IF* is found many times in scripture. Yes?

    Gen 18:26, Gen 18:28, Gen 18:30, Psalm 66:18, Psalm 130:3, Isa 1:19, Isa 1:20, Jer 18:8, Jer 18:10, Jer 22:5, Eze 3:19, Eze 18:21, Eze 33:9, Eze 33:13, John 5:31, John 8:31, John 8:54, John 12:26, etc., etc,…

    This “IF” in “Titus sounds like “IF” someone is NOT blameless then do NOT ordain them.
    Because – In verse 7, Paul explains why he “Introduces this Conditional” *IF*

    7 – For a bishop “must be” “Blameless.”

    Titus 1:5… and ordain elders…
    Titus 1:6 **IF** any be blameless…
    Titus 1:7 For a bishop *must be* blameless…
    Titus 1:8 …Just, Holy…

    Must Be – Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
    Blameless – Thayers – that cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
    Just – Thayers – observing divine laws, innocent, faultless, guiltless, wholly conformed to the will of God.
    Holy – Thayers – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness, observing every moral obligation, pure holy.

    It is NOT my demanding perfection – It is written

    Here’s a question for you – After Paul gives thes tough qualifications

    Does Timothy, or Titus, ordain anyone as – pastor/elder/overseer

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  11. So Amos you are denying that Peter in 1 Peter indicates that there are people who are engaged in the pastoral ministry and are elders?

    I understand that you have had a bad experience but that does not change Scripture.

    Amos are you also saying that when God gave pastors and the elders that Peter mentions are perfect people who do not sin, do not make mistakes, and have become conformed exactly to the image of Christ?

    Yes I do meet the qualifications Amos or I would not be involved in the pastoral ministry. Now I confess that my children do not always obey but I still rule my house by instructing and correcting them when they do not obey. I do not know everything but I am apt to teach the things that God has taught me as I listen to His voice and follow Jesus. I am not greedy of filthy lucre but I will be upset tomorrow if my employer does not give me my paycheck for the last two weeks. People and situations can anger me but I have not brawled since I have been converted. I enjoy the company of other people but there are times when I want to be with just my family or alone. Vine defines “just” as “righteous or a state of being right or right conduct as judged by the Divine standard” so I am righteous because I have been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. “Holy” is defined by Vine as “pure from evil conduct and observant of God’s will. I am holy because I have been made a part of a holy nation through salvation in Christ. I am not perfect but I am being perfected. Now your evaluation of me and any other person in the pastoral ministry will depend on which moment you observe me. Unfortunately Scripture indicates that the good work that God began in us at salvation is a constant work until the day of Jesus Christ no matter what ministry God uses us in.

    Just some observations:
    — You ask me to conform to definitions that include conformity to a law that you say we should not be even look at. Hmmmmm…..
    –You imply no one can be just when God describes Lot as “just lot”.
    –You seem to deny God’s sovereign guidance even in the unpleasant and hurtful experiences of life. Joseph seems to have seen things differently and Romans 8:28 directs us to see things differently if we are going to be just and holy. 🙂
    –You say God doesn’t see your sins but seem to imply that if someone ministers as a pastor that not only God sees their sins but you do as well.
    –You seem to be implying that there should be no pastors when Scripture clearly indicates that God has given pastors as part of the instrumentality for the perfecting of the saints.
    –You assume a dichotomy of clergy and laity that neither JoeJoe nor myself has even hinted exists. As a matter of fact, I have gone to great lengths in posts to makes sure everyone understands that I see pastoral ministers as having no more authority than anyone else in the congregation.

    Well that’s all for now. I have to engage in a little pastoral ministry tonight without a title. 🙂

    Like

  12. A Amos Love you said:
    “Yeah – They do make mistakes – They do sin – and they should go do something else…
    I’m tired of them “Making their Mistakes” on me. 😦
    And other defensless Sheep. Who suffer horribly – for long years – NO Stop it…

    Preach it Amos, You bless me, and your comments set me free, truth is supposed to do that, aye? Baby steps for scared Gail…

    Like

  13. Wes,
    You said:
    “I have to disagree with the statement that we no longer need a school master. ”

    Galatians 3:25
    But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

    Where is your faith?

    Like

  14. Wes,
    You said:
    I don’t think Romans 4:15 is speaking of human wrath but of God’s wrath against transgressors of His law and considering the context of the passage and that no one has even intimated that salvation comes through or is maintained by obedience to the law I don’t think Romans 4:15 applies unless one engages in a little eisegesis. Now I know we don’t want to engage in eisegesis or proof texting here.

    Romans 4 cannot be read in context without Romans 5.

    Before the law

    When?

    Before the law, sin was in the world, but sin is not IMPUTED where there is no law.

    NOW take it back to Romans 4…all of it. The conversation was in regards to ABRAHAM who did not have the law.

    Abraham was BEFORE THE LAW.

    Now re-read Romans 4:15.

    Abraham did not receive God’s wrath because he did not fall under the law, and we all know that “For all have sinned”, but his sin WAS NOT IMPUTED. Why?

    Because Law works wrath.

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  15. A Amos Love

    Thanks for all of your kind words.

    I have another one for you:

    Colossians 2:20-21
    20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

    21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;

    Ed

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  16. Jeff,
    I am naturally sarcastic in my tone. I mean no ill will to anyone with my sarcastic tone. To put that in a sarcastic tone, “DEAL WITH IT”. Just kidding.

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  17. Wes,

    The schoolmaster’s use is to bring us to faith. You use it as a MEASURING tool, to see how you measure to God’s standards. That isn’t the way to use the school master. When you measure yourself to God’s standards, you fail.

    You say that obeying the law of Moses is a joy.

    Do you go home at night, and say to yourself, “It’s a joy that I didn’t steal anything at work today, not even a company pen!”?

    That is a pat on your back, and you are doing the patting. That is what being obedient to the law of Moses is.

    Controlling yourself to not sin is being obedient to the law of Moses.

    That is works. You will never measure up, so just submit (relax) to Christ.

    You, as a Pastor, should USE THE LAW OF MOSES (The School master) to bring others to faith, not to measure your own obedience to the schoolmaster.

    Ed

    Like

  18. Julie Anne,

    It’s funny, in a way, how that when the internet first came out that there was all of a sudden, out of nowhere, etiquette police. No one cared how people spoke before that time. I have been a fan of debates since…well, since watching professional wrestling on TV back in the 70’s. They were “oh, so polite” before a match. NOT. I never heard of a polite toned debate before the internet.

    Like

  19. Julie Anne,

    You bet I got it. Ya, them were the days. Them were the good ole days. Last time I saw him in person was in 1982 in Yakima. I worked setting up the ring, and was bell ringer. Big Time Wrestling!! Miss it.

    Like

  20. Chap, how do you know that you are being conformed to the image of Christ? How do you explain to someone else what conformity to Christ looks like? I need you to give me something objective. Hitler, Pol Pot, and the SGM guys all claimed to be operating in love. So let’s move beyond gut feelings less we have to congratulate these guys for their zealous love.

    Like

  21. Jeff,
    You asked:
    “Isn’t the law still a guide to believers, in terms of their sanctification?”

    The answer is a huge “no”.

    The Holy Spirit is what guides a believer to sanctification, not the law. If you rely on the law to guide you, then you are attempting to be “obedient” to the law to conform you to the image of Christ. That means that you are “working” to be conformed. That isn’t the sanctification process. We don’t look to the law to be sanctified. Sanctification is the Holy Spirit’s job, not the law. The law shows that we need a savior. We have that savior. Now that we have that savior, no law is needed, except to bring others into the sheepfold.

    From what I can assess, Wesley is using the law to measure himself to God’s righteousness (on a continuous basis), even tho he acknowledges that salvation does not come by obeying the law.

    Romans 3:**
    19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

    The law does NOT SPEAK to those who are not under the law. So why use the law, except to bring others into the sheepfold?

    Ed

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  22. Wesley,

    Gut feelings is necessary, because God gave us all a gut feeling when he created us. It’s called a conscience. It is otherwise known as the law written in our hearts. People can and do go against their conscience, i.e. SGM, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.

    But, I think that you are discussing two different things in this topic.

    1. You use the law to measure YOURSELF.
    2. You use the law to measure others.

    I have no problem with you using #2. It shows that we are all sinners.

    However, I have a problem with you using #1 to measure yourself.

    Ed

    Like

  23. Wesley,

    Let me add to the last, above response. If you use the law to measure other believers sanctification process, that is wrong, too.

    John 13:35
    By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

    Like

  24. So how does one know their conscience is not seared (1 Tim 4:2), defiled (Tit 1:15), weak (1 Cor 8:7), or evil (Heb 10:22)?

    Like

  25. Chap, how do you know Hitler, Pol Pot, and the SGM guys went against their conscience and not just your conscience?

    Like

  26. Notice that you did not use the law to measure…you used the NT writings.

    You mean to tell me that you need it in writing in order for you to know when a person is doing wrong (The law)?

    How do I know that Hitler, Pol Pot, and the SGM guys went against their conscience?

    Let me ask, how do you know?

    Like I said, I have no problem of you using the law to show that others are sinners. I have a problem with you using the law for your own measure.

    You already were (past tense, not present tense) under the school master. That is what brought YOU to faith. YOU are no longer under the school master.

    But there are others that you mention that REJECT Jesus and are NOT disciples of Jesus. The Law speaks to THEM, and you use it correctly, but you use it incorrectly for YOURSELF.

    Ed

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  27. I don’t know that they went against their conscience. I know that they went against my conscience. I will concede that Hitler and Pol Pot were not followers of Christ. I am not sure about the SGM guys. So if I accept their testimony that they are disciples of Christ then I cannot demonstrate their actions are unacceptable through the moral principles of Scripture. There is no reason to believe that they would accept “My conscience tells me you are wrong” as a valid critique when their conscience does not say they are wrong. So how do I communicate to these professed followers of Christ that they are wrong without an appeal to the moral principles contained in Scripture?

    What about my other question:
    Wesley Roy
    MAY 10, 2013 @ 5:49 AM
    So how does one know their conscience is not seared (1 Tim 4:2), defiled (Tit 1:15), weak (1 Cor 8:7), or evil (Heb 10:22)?

    By the way Chap, the conversation has been quite enjoyable and I do think we are closer to agreement than either one of us is willing to admit. 🙂

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  28. Wesley,

    Break this down, please:

    John 13:35
    By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

    All men knows what love is.

    Matthew 5:46
    For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

    Even the “publicans” love, although they only love those who love them. They just don’t love their enemies.

    Like

  29. Chap, love is subjective. You will remember that the SGM guys claim to be motivated by love for God and the people involved. You have to move out of the mystical into the concrete or else you are left with, “You have to change your behavior because my gut feeling tells me that you are not loving correctly”. That just changes the who gets to make the arbitrary decisions.

    Scripture is filled with illustrations of love but unfortunately our current bent on lawlessness prevents us from even acknowledging them because they are couched in moral absolutes and moral practices. Love consists of actions and attitudes outlined in Scripture such as self-sacrifice, providing for the needy, instructing/correcting sinful behavior (don’t exactly know how to do this without referencing all of Scripture as Scripture teaches), encouraging, edifying,etc. All of this really becomes quite meaningless and culturally driven when all moral principles and practices observable in Scripture are relegated to the trash heap unless a person is unconverted.

    Like

  30. Wesley,

    You said:

    I am not sure about the SGM guys.

    Why are you not sure? Faith without works is dead. What are their works? We know that James was discussing Love Thy Neighbor as yourself (the royal law) as works, and referenced Abraham in the process of his works (who was before the law).

    If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

    Revelation 2:2
    I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

    The Fruit of the Spirit also. That is not in the law of Moses.

    Galatians 5:**
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

    23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

    Do the SGM guys represent these things? So, if you can’t judge whether the SGM guys are not the disciples of Christ unless you see it in writing in the law of Moses, then how do you discern anything?

    Ed

    Like

  31. Wes,

    You keep saying the following:

    love is subjective.

    If you don’t know what love is “in the gut”, then I feel sorry for you. I showed you that God acknowledges that Abraham loved Isaac. God did not have to tell Abraham what love was or is before Abraham finally got it, that he loved his son. But it seems as tho you need a definition in writing in the law of Moses.

    Love is an emotion, and if that emotion is not put into action as James 2 indicates, then their faith is dead, and they fall under the law of Moses.

    All people know what love is, even the publicans, who are under the law of Moses.

    But Abraham knew love before the Law of Moses.

    So, I don’t get your “love is subjective” mode.

    Ed

    Like

  32. How do you know your gut feelings are not defiled (Tit 1:15), weak (1 Cor. 8:7), evil (Heb 10:22), and/or hardened (1 Tim 4:2)? That is one reason following gut feelings is not a good idea unless you want to accept that the gut feelings of everyone are valid.

    Love is subjective because different people feel loved based on different criteria. Sarah may have felt loved when Abraham gave her away as a concubine twice to gain his own safety but my wife would not consider that love. Sarah may have felt loved when Abraham fathered a child with another woman but Mrs. Roy would not consider that love under any conditions. Clearly we must be instructed in what actions make a person feel loved. God has provided us with this information in Scripture as moral principles so that we would know what He perceives as love for Him and our neighbor. Now what you call the principles is irrelevant. You can call them the law of Moses, Abraham, Issac, or Jacob. You can call them the royal law. You can call them the law of Christ. It doesn’t matter. It is purely semantic.

    If we deny this then there is no basis for correcting the SGM guys are anyone else for that matter. One cannot expect them to submit to their gut feelings while they deny the SGM guys the right to call others to submit to their gut feelings. There is no way to know which gut feeling is correct unless we look to Scripture for God’s revelation of His moral character through specific principles.

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  33. Wes asked:

    So how does one know their conscience is not seared (1 Tim 4:2), defiled (Tit 1:15), weak (1 Cor 8:7), or evil (Heb 10:22)?

    Based on the references that you provided, they are all qualified. There is a huge difference between The Old Covenant defiled/weak/evil compared to the New Testament defiled/weak/evil.

    Anything that is not of faith is defiled, weak and evil. The law is not of faith, and the strength of sin is the law. Without the law, sin has no strength at all. That is why Abraham didn’t need the law. He had faith, and that is all that is needed.

    Do the SGM guys fall under the law of faith, or the law of Moses?

    Titus 1:**
    16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

    We judge them by their works. They are disobedient to FAITH, and THAT puts them under the law of Moses.

    Faith is the Law, I already showed you that. We are under faith, not the law of Moses. The SGM guys are disobeying faith and therefore are under the law of Moses.

    Isn’t there any discerning in your gut?

    Like

  34. Wes,

    I wish to dispel any negative thing that you say about Abraham.

    Genesis 26:**
    5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

    There are people that are teaching that Abraham disobeyed God, did not seek God’s council, had lack of faith, etc.

    Not according to Genesis 26:5 or Romans Chapter 4.

    Ed

    Like

  35. Where can I find “faith” described so that I know when someone is disobeying it? I don’t think the definitions in Hebrews 11 allow for faith to be disobeyed. Now if by faith you mean a body of doctrine then I am right there with you. We are back to moral principles and practices outlined in Scripture.

    I have the gut feeling that you are continuing to say your gut is right and the SGM guys guts are wrong and it is simply because in your gut you feel they are wrong. If they listened to that then they would be allowing you to do to them what you do not want them to do to you.

    Like

  36. Chap, I am not being negative about Abraham just presenting the facts as recorded in Scripture. Abraham used his wife for a shield for personal harm and fathered a child with another woman. He is in good company. David the man after God’s heart committed adultery and killed a man. Just Lot fathered his own grandchildren. The list goes on and on. I think there is a passage describing Abraham and all the rest of us in Romans 3 that says we have all sinned. It appears that humans have been sinners even before God revealed His moral character to Israel through Moses.

    Like

  37. WOW

    Youse guys are sumptin else. 😉

    I Come in this morning excited – lookin to shed some light and dispel the darkness. 😉

    And 28 comments to be read… You guys have been busy…

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  38. Gail

    Nice to hear from you – And nice to hear your loving words….
    They mean more to me today then I can explain – But thank you muchly… 😉

    “You bless me, and your comments set me free,
    truth is supposed to do that, aye? Baby steps for scared Gail…”

    This battle, As much as I enjoy the verbal jousting, is difficult at times….
    When you say – “your comments set me free,” makes this battle worth it all…
    For me – That is the highest compliment anyone can give – and I’ll receive.

    Eph 6:12
    For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
    against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
    against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Maybe we can dream together – that these pastors – who do NOT qualify – who Abuse – Will go away and “Make their Mistakes” someplace else. And leave “US” Sheepies – His Sheep – Alone… 😉

    Yeah – I smiled at that line after I wrote it – Sounds like it’s straight out of heaven

    To dream … the impossible dream …
    To fight … the unbeatable foe …
    To bear … with unbearable sorrow …
    To run … where the brave dare not go …
    To right … the unrightable wrong …
    To love … pure and chaste from afar …
    To try … when your arms are too weary …
    To reach … the unreachable star …

    This is my quest, to follow that star …
    No matter how hopeless, no matter how far …
    To fight for the right, without question or pause …
    To be willing to march into Hell, for a Heavenly cause …

    And I know if I’ll only be true, to this glorious quest,
    That my heart will lie will lie peaceful and calm,
    when I’m laid to my rest …

    And the world will be better for this:
    That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
    Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
    To reach … the unreachable star …

    Like

  39. Wesley

    Thanks – You keep bringing up Peter in 1 Peter – here @ MAY 9, 2013 @ 4:03 PM…

    And before @ MAY 9, 2013 @ 2:06 PM – You write…
    “In this passage Peter was convinced that there were some people who were engaged in the ministry of pastor/elder/bishop.”

    Okay But – What’s you’re point – That Todays Paid Professional Pastors are like them?
    These elders in 1 Peter are NOTHING like pastor/elder/oveerseers we see today.

    These elders were NOT different from the folks – by dress – by position – by “Title.”
    These elders were NOT – Paid, Professional, Pastors, Preaching, to People, in Pews.
    These elders did NOT have the word “Grace” in the “Title” of **their** church.
    Rule of Thumb – If “GRACE” is in the “Title” – You will NOT find much in the group.

    These elders Peter is talking to seemed to take what Jesus taught to heart.

    NOT one elder took the Title shepherd. – NOT one took the Name of the Lord in Vain.
    NOT one called themself pastor/shepherd – They pointed to the “ONE” Shepherd.
    NOT one of them called themself “Leader” – Jesus said He is the “ONE” Leader.
    Seems, In the Bible, the only one with the “Title” Shepherd/Leader is {{{ Jesus.}}}
    And the elders in 1 Peter, and the Bible, Believed Jesus was the “ONE” Shepherd.

    Maybe you can learn something from these elders – and STOP calling yourself pastor.
    NOT one of His Disciples took the ”Title” pastor – Or called themself pastor. 😉
    Wouldn’t you like to be like one of His Disciples? After your “Continuous Growth?”
    Jesus said, ALL ye are brethren – I like Jesus – A Lot.

    ALL elders humbled themselves, called themselves “Servants.” And came to serve and NOT be served. Because Jesus – as Man – humbled Himself, made Him self of NO reputation, And took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8

    And Jesus said, in John 5:41-44, – I receive NOT honor from men…
    …How can you believe who receive honor one of another.

    When they love to be is called Pastor, Pastor, in the market place?
    Aren’t they receiving honor from man?

    Jesus said – He who speaks of himself seeks his own glory. John 7:18

    And todays pastor/leader/reverend speaks a lot about themself. – Self promoting???
    ALL their works they do for to be seen of men, and love the chief seats.

    They place their Name and “Title” on Diploma’s, Licences, placed on office walls.
    “Engraven” on office doors, and secretarys desks, and Web Sites.
    “Engraven” on business cards, that are handed out, and name tags at luncheons.
    “Engraven” on the Sunday Morning bulletin, and on the curb side street sign.
    And “Clergy” signs placed on car windows…
    And anyone who reads them knows who “the Pastor” is. Yes?

    Are todays pastor/leader/reverends anything like the humble elders in 1 Peter?
    Did any elder in 1 Peter announce? – They are a Gift from God to believers?

    “We are NOT being intellectually honest if we are to assume that”

    Like

  40. A.AmosLove- Music video & words gave me holy shivers! Jesus is our Star.

    When I think of Christ scars, how many have been scared by false teachings, I weep with the hope knowing that “one day every tear will be wiped away”

    They might be able to hide their abuse now behind their elevated positions however a day is coming…
    “For everything that is hidden will eventually be brought into the open, and every secret will be brought to light.”

    “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

    I will let y’all continue your conversation. Peace to you Amos!

    Like

  41. Gail

    Good one – “Jesus is our Star” – Yes, our light.

    I’ll go listen to the song again.

    Like

  42. Okay Amos, you are making a lot of assumptions. These assumptions may characterize your failed attempt at pastoral ministry but they do not describe everyone’s pastoral ministry.

    Your argument about what the elders Peter is speaking of were called is unfounded. You are arguing from silence.

    It appears that you cannot see the sovereign hand of God at work in your previous unpleasant experience. No problem.

    It is pretty simple. God gave the gift of pastors to the churches so there are pastors in the churches. God gave qualifications and sent men to ordain bishops in the churches so there are bishops in the churches. Peter addressed the elders in the churches so there are elders in the churches.

    Your problem is with terminology. I doubt any of them care what you call them.
    Your problem is with having experienced someone lording it over the flock. Everyone is not doing that.
    Your problem is that you tried to do something you were not qualified to do. That doesn’t mean no one is qualified.
    Your problem is that you are expecting someone to never make mistakes when you make them. God doesn’t expect that. He gives grace even to people involved in the pastoral ministry (note no title).
    You have stereotyped and falsely accused all people engaged in a particular ministry because of your limited experience. Thank God Jesus didn’t let His bad experience on Calvary color his opinion of humanity.

    This may not help your recovery but it is clear that you have no qualms with dismissing off hand the leadership of God in the lives of other people. If your assumed superior knowledge, even of unrecorded events, is an indication of your effort at pastoral ministry, I see why you think that people are in danger of abuse by those in the ministry possessing your attitude with a different agenda.

    Having experienced abuse is no reason to heap abuse on others simply because they are involved in the same ministry that the person who abused you was involved in.

    Like

  43. Wes,

    You said:
    “Abraham used his wife for a shield for personal harm and fathered a child with another woman. ”

    That is not fact. That is opinion. A wrong one at that.

    Romans Chapter 4 discusses Abraham’s faith PRIOR TO as well as AFTER circumcision, and Genesis 26 states that Abraham obeyed everything.

    I totally disagree with your assessment, based on what is written in regards to the righteousness that was IMPUTED to Abraham.

    This tells me that Abraham KNEW his wife would be safe, because SHE is the KEY to the promise that God made.

    When Abraham was asked by the the leaders why he did what he did, he qualified it by saying that he didn’t believe that the FEAR OF GOD WAS IN THIS PLACE.

    Since the story about faith begins with Abraham, how come you don’t study those things about faith that is PRIOR to the law?

    It is simple. God promised Abraham something, and he believed God, against all odds, Abraham STILL believed God, even to the point of giving up his wife to the Pharaoh he STILL believed God. Even to the point of sacrificing his own son, he believed God, in that God would raise his son up from the dead in order for God’s promise to take place.

    Yes, Hebrews 11 explains it all.

    Like

  44. Wesley

    Oops – Bad assumption on your part – You write…
    “ These assumptions may characterize your failed attempt at pastoral ministry but they do not describe everyone’s pastoral ministry.”

    Whoooaaa – Who said I failed at pastoral ministry – I never said there are NO pastors – We just do NOT know who they are in the Bible – And we do NOT know who they are in the Body – IMO – The least likely to be pastor are the ones who have to tell you they are by taking a “Title.” “Rule of Thumb” If someone has to tell you they’re a pastor, they are Church Leaders – Mostt likely they are NOT. 😉

    What we have here is a failure to communicate – Just because I left “the Corrupt Religious System,” with all it’s high and mighty “Titles” NOT foud in the Bible – Just because I realized – NOT one of His Disciples had that “Title.” And just because I left “The Abusive Religious System” to become a freeman – A believer walking in Liberty – How does that equate to “your failed attempt at pastoral ministry?”

    I’m still shepherding, feeding, careing for believers – And Caring for you, you, Wesley Roy. I’m feeding you the word of God – shedding light to dispel your darkness, your Commandmensts of Men, your Doctrines of Men, Your “Traditions of Men,” that Cancel, and Make Void the word of God. Mark 7:13.

    I mean, I’m even suggesting you look into becoming one of His Disciples?
    You know, where you “Deny Yourself,” pick up your cross and follow Jesus.
    And where you “Forsake ALL” – “Titles” – Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory.
    And become one of His Disciples – Learning Directly from Jesus – NO middle man.
    I count this an honor to talk to you about these wonderful works of God.

    I undertand that you are just one of “The Lost.” And I’m still seeking after you. 🙂

    Jesus upbraided the Shepherds of Isreal in Ezek 34…
    Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel…
    … 4 The diseased have ye not strengthened,
    neither have ye healed that which was sick,
    neither have ye bound up that which was broken,
    neither have ye brought again that which was driven away,
    **neither have ye sought that which was lost;**

    I undertand that you are just one of “The Lost.” And I’m still seeking after you. 🙂

    Like

  45. Wes,
    You assume that Abraham committed adultery, and I showed you scripture debunking that idea. Well, here is more stuff you said:

    David the man after God’s heart committed adultery and killed a man. Just Lot fathered his own grandchildren.

    David was indeed “under the law”. Lot was not. There was no such law against incest in the days of Lot. And if you know the story behind it, it wasn’t about sexual sins to begin with. It was about the daughters not having children to pass on heirs.

    Wow, I can’t believe my eyes in what I read from you…a pastor. It boggles my mind.

    Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

    Faith pleases God, not the deeds (works/obeying/doing) of the law of Moses.

    I guess when it is stated that faith without works is dead, you equate that with faith without obedience to the law of Moses is dead?

    Law of faith:

    EXACT WORDS:

    Romans 3:27
    27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

    Why do you not know about that law…pastor?

    Like

  46. Wes,

    You said:
    ” It appears that humans have been sinners even before God revealed His moral character to Israel through Moses.”

    I already covered that. Abraham was not under any law of Moses. Romans 4 and 5. No sin could be IMPUTED to Abraham, even tho he was a sinner.

    That is the same for a Christian.

    1 John 3:9
    9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    CANNOT SIN…CANNOT, CANNOT, CANNOT.

    It does not say, should not.

    Why? Because we are not under the law, we are dead to the law. Why do you keep looking to the law?

    Yes, for all have sinned, but to whom sin is IMPUTED TO is another question. Under the law=yes, not under the law=no.

    Ed

    Like

  47. Hi Ed Chapman

    Wrote this earlier – Did NOT post it

    ————–

    You write @ MAY 9, 2013 @ 6:18 PM….
    Wesley,

    Amos asked about “title”, not position.

    ————

    Yes – You understand…

    It does NOT make sense to these “Lost’ guys….

    They gotta have that “title” – They can NOT see – I’m talking about “Titles.”

    “Titles” become “Idols” – If they lose the “Title” what’s left???

    Who are they? Who will recognise how important they are?

    Oh Man – The Law of Faith…

    Now I gotta go copy a bunch more of your comments…
    They ‘re NOT trademarked? Are they?
    And study them – this is good stuff…

    Are we really allowed to have this much fun… 😉

    Like

  48. Ed

    In my experience with having been,ordained, in “Leadership.” And…
    In my experience with the “Title” and “Position” of **Today’s** “Pastor/Leader,”

    “Titles” become “Idols” ………………. “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-11 KJV
    “Pastors” become “Masters” ………. A No, No, Mat 23:10 KJV

    An “Idol,” an addiction, difficult to lay down, hard to walk away from.
    Because, **Today’s** “Titles” come with something “A Little Bit Extra.”
    Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Reputation, Recognition, etc…
    All “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-7. All those things Jesus spoke against.
    All those things that are highly esteemed among men.

    Luke 16:15
    …but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men
    is abomination in the sight of God.

    Jesus told “His Disciples” NOT to “Exercise Authority.” Mark 10:41, Mat 20:25.
    Peter, 1 Pet 5:3, said, Neither as being lords over God’s heritage… but, examples…

    In my experience…
    Everyone who assumes the “Title” and “Position” of “Pastor/Leader,”

    No matter how loving, eventually…
    No matter how humble, eventually…
    No matter how much a servant, eventually…

    Will “exercise authority” and “lord it over” God’s sheep. (Guilty as charged.)
    That’s always the beginning of “Spiritual Abuse.” 😦

    When you assume the “Title” and “Position” of **Today’s** “Pastor/Leader,”
    automatically – you are “Exercising Authority” and “lording it over” God’s heritage.
    Because that “title” comes with – Power – Profit – Prestige…

    Yup – “Titles” become “Idols” – And if you will NOT bow to the “Title” – the “Idol”
    “Church Discipline” will be on the way…

    Still – Other sheep – Will look for guidence – From a “Mere Fallible Human”
    And – NOT – Look to the “ONE” Shepherd and Bishop of their soul – Jesus.

    Like

  49. A Amos Love

    heheh…not trade marked at all. It’s all bible.

    It is natural, however, to so much want to please God that we seem to think that being obedient to the law of Moses accomplishes that in order to “become” holy and conformed to the image of Christ.

    Not many can fathom that we don’t have to do anything at all except to believe God’s promise, and our actions are according to the believing. That is the key. If you believe a promise (WHAT OUR FAITH IS BASED ON), then your ACTIONS will reflect that belief. That is why Abraham didn’t need law. His righteous actions were based on belief of a promise.

    Everyone wants to please God. There is no doubt. But how that is accomplished is different for some.

    The one thing that I learned is that whatever we “think” in our logic, it’s the exact opposite with God.

    Take for example that God is light, and God resides in the light.

    Our logic states that darkness is the absence of light. But it’s the exact opposite with God. Light is the absence of darkness.

    Darkness had to be “created”.

    Isaiah 45:7
    I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

    Light, already existing, is formed, but darkness is created.

    I say that to say that some believe that we must do something to please God. But God states to believe something, and then God watches our actions based on that belief. Our actions to law isn’t what pleases God. Our actions to belief pleases God.

    I don’t understand how Wesley doesn’t see this. He wants me to tell him about faith.

    He asked:
    “Where can I find “faith” described so that I know when someone is disobeying it?”

    How is it that he, a preacher, doesn’t know anything about faith? I am perplexed.

    Ed

    Like

  50. Seems Amos is much like the SGM guys claiming to know my spiritual condition. If someone who was in the pastoral ministry said the things to you that you said to me you would cry foul. Some don’t need a title to evaluate God’s servants and attempt to lord over God’s sheep that disagree with them.

    Like

  51. Sorry Wesley

    You write…
    “Seems Amos is much like the SGM guys claiming to know my spiritual condition. If someone who was in the pastoral ministry said the things to you that you said to me you would cry foul.”

    What are you talking about?

    What did I say about your “spiritual condition” that you’re upset with?

    Like

  52. Chap, I am surprised that you guys who would decry the SGM guys supposed corner on the truth claim to have the corner on the truth.

    I do know exactly what faith is and exactly what faith produces in the lives of believers because Scripture describes it. I know that Adam sinned because sin has existed and been imputed since Adam. I do know that Abraham is no different than anyone else. He is simply a snapshot of God’s gracious dealings with humanity throughout the ages.

    I do not believe there are any actions that we can perform that save us or maintain our salvation. Period.

    Like

  53. Chapmaned,

    In regards to how Wesley and I both (by his statement of agreement to such in a follow up comment) view the law and how it is NOT about how we become holy, please see my long (sorry for length, didn’t really know how to shorten it) explanation of how the Law, works, and grace fit together in God’s redemptive plan on the post “Who gets to decide what is REAL love.”

    Like

  54. Hi JoeJoe

    Was wondering…

    Are you a pastor – elder – church leadership?

    And what is the name of the church you go to?

    Like

  55. Amos, I am not upset by anything anyone says on this or any forum. I was well aware when I first posted on this forum that I would be in hostile territory and consider to be at fault before I was even heard. I was well aware that my motives would be questioned because of someone else’s actions. I have no problem with it. I do not expect people to treat me with the same grace that I treat others with because I do not know what God is doing in their life.

    I understand that people make mistakes. I understand that conformance to Christ is a process that each believer is being put through. I understand that I do not know anything about anyone else’s motivation for their actions. I understand that I am to be gracious to those that I disagree with and understand that their perspective is needed and beneficial in some way to God’s plan for their growth or my growth. Therefore I do not take any comments personal.

    Like

  56. Amos JoeJoe can’t be a pastor, elder, or church leader because they don’t exist. He can’t tell you the name of the church he goes to because you do not go to church but are the church.

    I think he is trying to entrap you JoeJoe. 🙂

    Just wanted to see what it feels like to close ranks. 🙂

    Like

  57. Thanks wesley

    That was the nicest, and realist comment I’ve heard from you…

    I have hope for you – that’s why I continue to shepherd, feed, and care for you.

    But – you write…
    “Seems Amos is much like the SGM guys claiming to know my spiritual condition.”

    What did I say “Claiming” to know your spiritual condition?”

    Like

  58. Amos,

    I am not in any pastoral ministry. In case you would also ask… I have not had any formal seminary training either. I just do a lot of listening, reading, thinking, praying, meditating. I do help to serve behind the scenes at my church.

    I attend New Life Church in Arkansas (it is a multi-campus, non-denominational church, based out of Conway, AR).

    Oh, and let me do say this…I agree that pastoralship is a position of ministry. Somebody who takes a title of pastor for the prestige often associated with I would agree has the wrong motives. I don’t think there is a problem in calling somebody a pastor though. What else are you going to call a person in pastoral ministry? A pastor is simply a person in pastoral ministry. It is sounding more like one of your hang ups is simple semantics.

    Like

  59. Wesley

    “What did I say “Claiming” to know your spiritual condition?””

    And was I accurate? – Or NOT accurate? – by your standards?

    Like

  60. Oh, and I agree that “the church” is not any building or groups of building or organizations. “The church” is the whole body of believers. We use the term church when referring to the physical location we gather as a body of believers for worship, praise, and hearing from those who help to equip us for further service to our Lord, because it is simpler to say. It is in a technical, biblical sense, not entirely accurate. In everyday conversation though, it suffices, and people know what we are talking about.

    Like

  61. JoeJoe,

    Based on what I read in the Bible, the law was introduced SO THAT SIN WOULD INCREASE.

    The ONLY law to them was:

    Don’t get knowledge, because once you get knowledge, you will know that you are a sinner.

    That was the purpose of the tree of KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.

    They were naked and were not ashamed. Once they got knowledge, they were ashamed to be naked.

    God asked Adam…WHO told you that you were naked? That question is of importance.

    So, I say that because they were in sin prior to eating of the tree of KNOWLEDGE. Without that knowledge, they were innocent, but with that knowledge, sin was imputed to them.

    When is sin imputed to a person? When is it not? Why is it not? Why is it?

    Anyway, that was their spiritual death date…but God re-established that relationship with a sacrifice, and from then on, Adam sacrificed to God, maintaining that relationship. It was not severed forever. The sacrifice re-established it. Then Jesus comes along and states that He (Jesus) is the last sacrifice ever needed for all sins, past, present, and future.

    Either you believe that, or you don’t. If you believe it, then you live by faith. If you don’t, you live by the law. You keep on referencing the law. You keep on looking at the law for moral compass. You keep looking at the law for God’s approval.

    Either it’s law, or it’s grace thru faith. Which do you prefer? It certainly cannot be both.

    Since Jesus is the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth, then yes, it was all part of his redemptive plan…but once we are saved, stop looking at the law of Moses, because Abraham is our example of how faith works, and the law is not of faith at all. If that be the case, stop looking to the law for moral compass. Abraham didn’t need that moral compass, otherwise God would have given the law to Abraham.

    Ed

    Like

  62. JoeJoe – I sent this to Ed earlier – I’ll post it to you now…
    It’s got nothing to do with semantics – this is a Danger – Danger warning…

    JoeJoe

    In my experience with having been ordained, in “Leadership.” And…
    In my experience with the “Title” and “Position” of **Today’s** “Pastor/Leader,”

    “Titles” become “Idols” ………………. “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-11 KJV
    “Pastors” become “Masters” ………. A No, No, Mat 23:10 KJV

    An “Idol,” an addiction, difficult to lay down, hard to walk away from.
    Because, **Today’s** “Titles” come with something “A Little Bit Extra.”
    Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Reputation, Recognition, etc…
    All “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-7. All those things Jesus spoke against.
    All those things that are highly esteemed among men.

    Luke 16:15
    …but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men
    is abomination in the sight of God.

    Jesus told “His Disciples” NOT to “Exercise Authority.” Mark 10:41, Mat 20:25.
    Peter, 1 Pet 5:3, said, Neither as being lords over God’s heritage… but, examples…

    In my experience…
    Everyone who assumes the “Title” and “Position” of “Pastor/Leader,”

    No matter how loving, eventually…
    No matter how humble, eventually…
    No matter how much a servant, eventually…

    Will “exercise authority” and “lord it over” God’s sheep. (Guilty as charged.)
    That’s always the beginning of “Spiritual Abuse.”

    When you assume the “Title” and “Position” of **Today’s** “Pastor/Leader,”
    automatically – you are “Exercising Authority” and “lording it over” God’s heritage.
    Because that “title” comes with – Power – Profit – Prestige…

    Yup – “Titles” become “Idols” – And if you will NOT bow to the “Title” – the “Idol”
    “Church Discipline” will be on the way…

    Still – Other sheep – Will look for guidence – From a “Mere Fallible Human”
    And – NOT – Look to the “ONE” Shepherd and Bishop of their soul – Jesus.

    ————-

    I now see many dangers with “titles” – for everyone

    They are taking the name of the Lord – In Vain…

    Like

  63. Amos you seem to imply you know the heart of everyone in shepherding ministry in a local congregation of believers. You claim that others that do this are wrong but then you do it.

    Like

  64. Wesley

    “What did I say “Claiming” to know your spiritual condition?””

    And was I accurate? – Or NOT accurate? – by your standards?

    Come on – play along – We’ll have some fun –

    Fun – Is that allowed in your world?

    Like

  65. Wes,

    You state:
    “I know that Adam sinned because sin has existed and been imputed since Adam. I do know that Abraham is no different than anyone else. He is simply a snapshot of God’s gracious dealings with humanity throughout the ages.”

    Sin is only imputed when you have KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.

    Deuteronomy 1:39
    39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    No knowledge…no imputing of sin.

    Like

  66. Chapmaned,

    Salvation, God’s view of whether or not we are righteous, is, and always has been, based only on faith. Before Christ’s sacrifice, it was a faith looking forward without seeing, based on God’s promise. After Christ’s death, it was a faith looking backward, seeing that God’s promise was fulfilled.

    The Law does not impart righteousness. Following the Law, does not impart righteousness. The Laws shows us our sinfulness. I believe it is incorrect to say that the law was given so that sin could “increase.” Why would God want us to sin more? Rather, it was to show us just how far from the mark we are, and how so very much we need a Savior.

    Making sacrifices under the Law also is not what imparted righteousness. The sacrifices were a symbol to show that they had faith in the promise of God. God commanded they make the sacrifices, so they had faith in God and did. They were also a foreshadow of the final sacrifice to come, Jesus’ death on the cross.

    God gave the Law. God would not give something evil. What sort of Father would do that? It is a partial picture of God’s character. The full picture of God’s character was revealed through Christ (though we still have difficulty really seeing the picture being finite people). Some of the commands given in the law were still echoed by Jesus and the apostles. In the Law, it says to not commit adultery. Jesus said the same thing. So how exactly is following these laws a bad thing? We do not follow Jesus and his commands (some of which are old testament laws) because we have to, or because we think that it in some way makes us more righteous than somebody else, we follow them because we love our Savior and want to follow his ways and commands out of our love.

    Like

  67. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (Romans 5:12-17)

    The context of one of your oft referenced passages indicates that sin entered the world by Adam and that death, the result of sin, reigned from Adam to Moses. Seems that sin caught Abraham somewhere between Adam and Moses since verse 12 indicates that all from Adam to Moses sinned.

    Like

  68. Wesley asks:

    Just wondering Chap what the fixation with Abraham is about. Are you Jewish by any chance?

    My response:

    Why are you not fixated with Abraham? I am a son of Abraham.

    Romans 4:16
    Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

    We worship the God of _____________, Isaac, and Jacob.

    It does not begin with Paul, or Adam or Peter.

    By the way, my best friend is a Christian of Jewish descent. Jesus said that salvation is of the Jews (plural). The Apostle Paul said that there is much advantage of being a Jew. They hold the oracles of God. That means that the Gentiles have not cornered the market on the God

    Like

  69. Wesley

    Come on man – play along – Don’t be a party pooper…

    Can’t you tell I like you – You give as good as you get – We just dis-agree – today.

    It wasn’t a set up with JoeJoe – believe it or NOT I do care about you – and Pastors…

    Even some of my best friends are pastors – Well, many are ex-pastors – now.

    I’ve ministered to many who have been burnt – burnt-out – kicked-out – crawled-out –
    of “the Abusive Religious System.” Both “Leaders” and those the’ve “led” -The carnage on both sides is horrific…

    “What did I say “Claiming” to know your spiritual condition?”

    Like

  70. Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit seems to have found the law to be good as well.

    Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. (Romans 7:12)

    Like

  71. Wes,

    I agree “for all have sinned.” Did I not say that 3 or 4 times already?

    I asked:
    When is sin NOT IMPUTED?

    When is it imputed?

    The answer is in your quote, but not your explanation.

    Like

  72. Wes,

    The issue with Paul is found in Romans 7. He was ALIVE before the law. but when the law came (for him), he died (spiritually). It wasn’t by “inspiration of the Holy Spirit” at all. It was by KNOWLEDGE OF THE LAW. Read Romans 7 AGAIN from it’s beginning.

    Like

  73. Chapmaned,

    Wes,

    You state:
    “I know that Adam sinned because sin has existed and been imputed since Adam. I do know that Abraham is no different than anyone else. He is simply a snapshot of God’s gracious dealings with humanity throughout the ages.”

    Sin is only imputed when you have KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.

    Deuteronomy 1:39
    39 Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.

    No knowledge…no imputing of sin.

    Are you really implying that because the Law had not been given to Moses yet, that Abraham and others from his time did NOT sin because they didn’t know what sin was??? It seems like that is what you are saying.

    How do you deal with Romans 3:23 then? “For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

    Also, it was recognized that sin was capable even from the earliest times. Look at Genesis 4:6-7. “Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

    People knew the concept of right and wrong and sin. Even without the Law, they had knowledge of sin.

    Like

  74. Ed

    Yes – glory to God….
    “Why are you not fixated with Abraham? I am a son of Abraham.”

    Father Abraham had many sons. 😉 😉 😉

    Like

  75. Is not God the God of Adam and Noah as well? If I remember Jesus is called the last Adam not the last Abraham. Semantics gentlemen……semantics.

    Like

  76. Wes,

    Spiritual death (simply separation from God), Wes…is passed on to all men, however, sin is NOT imputed where there is no law.

    Where was the separation with Abraham? There was none, until he died in the flesh, then he went to Abraham’s bosom.

    You keep ignoring that sin is not imputed where there is no law. I continue to agree “for all have sinned”. That is not the issue. It is when sin is NOT imputed.

    You cannot be convicted of a law that you know nothing about. Not even God’s law.

    Sin was NOT imputed to Abraham, even tho “for all have sinned”. If sin was imputed to Abraham, then he would not be with God now. There was no law.

    No law = Grace
    Law = Wrath

    Romans 4.

    Like

  77. Wesley

    Take a chance – be willing to lose your life – humble yourself.

    Why NOT ask Jesus what you should do – MY Sheep Hear – My voice…

    “What did I say “Claiming” to know your spiritual condition?” That was bad…

    Like

  78. JoeJoe

    You said:

    “Are you really implying that because the Law had not been given to Moses yet, that Abraham and others from his time did NOT sin because they didn’t know what sin was??? It seems like that is what you are saying.

    How do you deal with Romans 3:23 then? “For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

    I never implied what you said at all.

    I said time and time again that I agree “for all have sinned”. Hello?

    I said that sin is not IMPUTED where there is no law.

    If you don’t know what imputed means, it means that it cannot be used against you. It is not placed on your charge.

    Can you please read 1 John 3:9 and look at the word “cannot” please.

    It does not say “should not”.

    Why? Sin is not imputed because we are not under the law.

    Romans 4:8
    Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Sin is only imputed when you have knowledge of sin. What was the name of that tree in the garden? Was eating of that tree the only sin of Adam and Eve? No…being naked was, because God asked, “Who told you that you were naked?” They covered their shame (nakedness)…they realized that they were naked. Before getting knowledge…no sin was imputed.

    Romans 7:**
    7 …I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

    8 …For without the law sin was dead.

    9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

    No law = alive
    Law = death

    Like

  79. LOL………LOL……

    Amos your blanket statements that all people involved in the shepherding ministry in a local congregation are motivated by pride and in error speaks of a deficient spiritual condition. Since I am one of these people and the only one that you are currently conversing with I assumed you were evaluating my spiritual condition.

    Like

  80. .
    .
    Rom 4:7*
    Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
    and whose sins are covered.

    Hey I’m blessed – God does NOT impute my sin

    And – He covers it…

    I like Jesus – a lot

    Like

  81. Wesley

    Ahh Yes – the old “Double Dare” gets em every time…

    Give me a couple of minutes to respond – I was just about to leave…

    Like

  82. Wesley – Thanks for trusting me…

    Well, once again, I have NOT explaine my self properly.

    My argument is NOT with you – I like you – And believe you love Jesus.

    My argument is with “The Corrupt Religious System” that has you in “Bondage.” My argument is with – The Commandments of Men, the Doctrines of men, that result in “Traditions” that Jesus warns “US” about.

    Mark 7:13
    KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
    ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
    NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…

    You belong to a “Denomination” that has their own different “Traditions”
    You have a “Title/Position” that has their own Traditions”
    We make up our own “Traditions” as we go along – We ALL gotem…

    And these “Traditions” are so powerful – They make void God’s word…
    We read His word – But we see it through this filter – Our Traditions…
    We start out with the “Tradition” and try to make His Words fit.

    The “Spirtual Abuse” had a tremendous benifit – I had to learn from Jesus

    For myself – And he showed me the “traditions” I followed – NOT His Word.
    I was in Bondage to Tradition – And did NOT know it…

    Think of the movie – the Matrix –

    People are trapped in a computer program – thinking there lives are just fine
    They all get dressed go to work – day after day – come home start all over again..
    Thinking they are free – doing what they want – But they are in Bondage…
    And they do NOT know it…

    Then there is this band – of outcasts – Who are Free – Trying to help others get FREE and out of the Matrix – the bondage they do NOT know they are in.

    They offer them FREEDOM – or to go back into the Matrix
    There are two different color pills –
    Take One and you know the truth BUT – can never GO BACK to that way of life.
    And your desire is to see people set FREE – even at the cost of you life.

    Take The other pill – you go back to The Matrix – But NEVER know the TRUTH.
    That you are stuck – In the Marix – and in Bondage…

    I have seen people – Who did NOT want the “TRUTH”- The believed in Jesus but
    They wanted to depend on humans and NOT depend on Jesus.
    They decided to remain in “the Abusive Religious System”
    That’s is what they were omfortable with – and outside The Sytem was scarry.

    And others – some taking years – left “the Corrupt Religious System…
    And looked for that LIBERTY that is in Jeeus Christ – Outside “The System”

    Any questions so far?

    Like

  83. Amos,

    I think part of the problem that Wesley has (and me as well) is that you made a blanket statement that you don’t trust pastors-AT ALL. You have made pretty clear that you don’t respect those that call themselves pastors because you believe they don’t fit the qualifications and are misleading (or eventually will mislead) the people they are pastoring. If you asked Wesley, assuming you just met him, “So what do you do?” and he answered, “I’m a pastor at Such and Such Church”, it sounds as if from all you have said that your initial reaction would be one of distrust, believing that he is either abusive to his church, or eventually will be. It shows a lack of respect for what he does. I don’t know Wesley, he seems to handle it just fine. That is still a pretty hurtful thing to say about somebody though.

    It seems you are saying that because there is a “potential” for abuse, that the only outcome is that abuse will occur with these people who pastor churches (I am not speaking about those who have shown themselves to be abusive, I am speaking of those who are diligently, though imperfectly because they are human after all, trying to lead their church by serving them).

    Just because there is a “potential” for their to be problems, does not mean that there WILL be problems. Just because some call themselves Pastor Bob, does not mean they should give up the ministry because in your estimation they will become abusive. That’s like saying just because their is a “potential” that a husband will cheat on his wife because he thinks his coworker is pretty should stop having sex with his wife. Why should anybody do that?

    Like

  84. Wesley

    Everyone knows – Todays Religious System” is Broken – It’s NOT working…
    You must have scene lots of stuff that doesn’t seem right to you – you block it out…
    But – Folks are leaving by the millions…. For many reasons – Abuse is just one…
    .
    So they try a bunch of new stuff to tweak it – Make it better.
    New Movements – New Music…. whatever – you’re familiar with all the new stuff every year – How to wave flags, Harp and bowl ministry – How to use the Tamborine – Always something new to please God – get His attention – get closer…

    And Jesus just asks us to cease from our own works and enter His Rest…

    Wesley – talk to Jesus – see what He has to say to you… 🙂

    John 14:26
    But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost,
    whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things…

    John 6:45
    It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.

    Deuteronomy 4:36
    Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
    that *He might instruct thee:*

    Psalms 32:8
    I will instruct thee and teach thee
    in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

    It does take a step of faith to believe and trust
    that Jesus “can speak to you” and **teach you** “ALL” truth.

    Like

  85. No problem Amos. I too have had to learn that a large part of what I have previously practiced was traditional and cultural instead of biblical.

    I do believe there are grave problems in our churches because our churches consist of people. I also do not see in Scripture where God has replaced the churches. We simply need to allow God to correct the problems and continue to use His churches for His glory.

    I do not see a biblical reason to jettison the church but I see much that can and must be changed within the church.

    Like

  86. JoeJoe

    You write…
    “you made a blanket statement that you don’t trust pastors-AT ALL.”

    Why should I? Does Jesus ever ask us to follow a “Mere Fallible Human?”

    When someone wants to be the leader – they expect folks to follow them…

    And they lead folks astray – And we can’t serve Two Masters…

    And you left off the other part that siad I love them…
    Now – I do NOT trust pastors – At ALL – Been burned too many times.
    But – I love them – And warn them often – They are in the most dangerous profession – 80% say pastoral ministry has had a “negative” effect on their families. 77% do NOT have a good marriage – 70% constantly battle depression. And the list goes on…

    Anyway, it was after I left “The Corrupt Religious System” of today, tore up my papers, and walked away from “Church Leadership,” that I realized Isaiah, had prophesied about my “Leadership skills.” And the “Leadership skills” of the rest of todays “Church Leaders.” No really… 😉

    Isa 3:12 KJV
    …O my people, *they which lead thee* cause thee to err,
    and destroy the way of thy paths.

    Isa 9:16 KJV
    For *the leaders* of this people cause them to err;
    and they that are led of them are destroyed.

    Some legacy todays “Church Leaders” are creating for themselves…

    And Jesus told His Disciples NOT to be called Leaders…
    For you have “ONE” Leader – Jesus… Mat 23:10….

    If someone calls themself leader???

    Are they one of His Disciples?

    I’m in agreement with King David…

    The Lord is my Shepherd. 🙂

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    P.S. Why do want to follow someone who calls themself “Church Leadership?”

    When Jesus said – He, Jesus, is the “ONE” Leader.?

    Which pill do you want to take???

    Like

  87. Wesley

    “I also do not see in Scripture where God has replaced the churches.”

    God is NOT replacing the 501 (c) 3, Non-profit, tax-deductible, Religious corporation. the IRS calls church.

    Jesus did NOT re-form “the Corrupt Religious System” of His Day…

    He left it and called out many into a relationship with HIM.

    And Jesus only Blasted – “The Religious Leaders” – He hung out with the common folks – the sinners – the tax collectors – the least of these…

    Wesley – what do you see going on with your “Leaders?” – the ones you submit too?

    What kind of a job are they doing? Any corruption going on?

    Don’t tell me – But what are you questioning??? Hmmm?

    Talk to jesus – He loves you – Forgive you – And ……

    Like

  88. JoeJoe

    Can you answer the question at the bottom? thanks

    Have you ever wondered why Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called “Leaders?”
    For you have “ONE” leader – the Christ. Mat 23:10 NASB – And NONE did… 😉

    Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible.
    Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
    But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
    Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
    and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    The Message – Mat 23:10-12.
    And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them.
    There is only “ONE” Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
    **Do you want to stand out? – Then step down. – Be a servant.**
    If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you.
    But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.

    Jesus instructed **His disciples** NOT to be called **leaders** and NONE did.

    If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders?”
    And a believer calls them self “leader?”
    And Allows others to call them “Leader?”

    Are they one of “His Disciples?”

    Like

  89. This is why I like non-denominations. The preacher reports, we decide if what the preacher reports is so. How? With a fine tooth comb. Expository preaching just doesn’t do it for me. Too many church’s still in the milk, too afraid to dig into that big fat juicy steak (meat), that exposes the hidden secret treasures that God put in the Law and the Prophets and the Writings (Tanakh) that God wants us to find. Instead, we are taught a massive amount of “obedience” to the law of Moses and less about the Faith of Abraham. Then I get accused of having a fixation on Abraham. Hmmmm. Interesting.

    Like

  90. JoeJoe,

    You had said:
    “Salvation, God’s view of whether or not we are righteous, is, and always has been, based only on faith. Before Christ’s sacrifice, it was a faith looking forward without seeing, based on God’s promise. After Christ’s death, it was a faith looking backward, seeing that God’s promise was fulfilled.

    The Law does not impart righteousness. Following the Law, does not impart righteousness. The Laws shows us our sinfulness. I believe it is incorrect to say that the law was given so that sin could “increase.” Why would God want us to sin more? Rather, it was to show us just how far from the mark we are, and how so very much we need a Savior.”

    My response:

    I totally disagree with your whole assessment here. The promise wasn’t salvation. The promise was eternal life. Now, you may think that this is one in the same, but it isn’t.

    We are heirs to the promise that was given to Abraham (And Wes wonders why I harp about Abraham). There was 2 promises made to Abraham.

    1. Seed (To inherit #2)
    2. Inheritance of Land (Promised Land)

    You said that after Christ died that it is faith looking backward seeing that God’s promise is fulfilled.

    That isn’t the way that the bible presents it. Faith is an expectation of something in the future, always in the future. Each individual believer’s “inheritance” is in the future, not the past.

    Finally you say that you disagree that the law was given so that sin could increase.

    From the NIVr version of the Bible

    Romans 5:20
    The law was given so that sin would increase. But where sin increased, God’s grace increased even more.

    Let’s see that from the KJV

    Romans 5:20
    Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

    From dictionary.com
    Abound: to occur or exist in great quantities or numbers

    I use an assortment of English translations to compare, but let’s look at the Greek word used in the KJV for the English word abound. As you can see, the word abound is used twice in Romans 5:20

    first use=Strong’s Concordance Greek Ref #4121
    second use=Strong’s Concordance Greek Ref #5248

    4121 (pleonazo)
    To do, make or be more, i.e. increase

    5248 (huperperisseuo)
    TO SUPERABOUND

    I stand by my statements to the law was given so that sin would INCREASE. That is what the Bible states.

    What are you guys learning in seminary, anyway?

    Ed

    Like

  91. Ed Chapman

    Was re-reading some of your comments

    chapmaned24 – MAY 2, 2013 @ 7:03 PM
    “Wesley, you crack me up with your statement @1:46 “Let me be clear”.
    Wow, where have we heard that before, sometimes several times a day?”

    Thought you might enjoy this…

    Often – When challenging “the Corrupt Religious System” and those who are running the show, AKA, the Leaders, they often start their rebuttal with – The Bible “Clearly” says… It’s “Clearly” in the scriptures… So and so, was “Clearly” speaking about…. God, “Clearly” is asking for…

    I’m thinking – With Thousands and Thousands of Denominations, ALL believing they have the truth, and they ALL dis-agree about something, – How “Clear” is it? Really? – Me-Thinks – Kinda “Clear” as Mud. . 😉

    I kept getting this word “Clearly” thrown at me. And it made me un-easy… Hmmm?

    So – One day I look up the word “Clearly” on my computer dictionary…

    And there is this paragraph – After the definition

    About those who use this word “Cleary” – Oh – how Jesus loves me…

    ———–

    clearly
    **Exaggerators like this word,** along with its cousins
    ( obviously, undeniably, undoubtedly, and the like).
    Often a statement prefaced with one of these words is conclusory,
    **and sometimes even exceedingly dubious.**
    As a result—though some readers don’t consciously realize it—
    ** clearly and its ilk are ‘weasel words’**—
    that is, **unnecessary words** that supposedly
    intensify the meaning of a statement, but actually weaken it.

    (Stephen White, The Written Word; 1984.).

    Like

  92. .
    JoeJoe – Anyone – Who is willing to play along… 😉

    ————-

    Who are “The Lost?

    What have your “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” taught you???

    —————

    Now – No going around asking anyone – Or doing a Bible Study on “The Lost.”

    Just – What have you been taught by your – “Pastor/Leader/Reverends?” 😉

    Like

  93. A Amos Love,

    One thing that is “clear” to me, however, is that I am oh so glad that I didn’t attend seminary. These pastors, preachers, teachers are taught how to teach, and what to teach. It’s “obvious” to me that not many instructors are accurate. Spiritual things are not being taught. Carnal things are being taught. And even in the carnal things, they get it wrong, just as I pointed out to JoeJoe above.

    Hidden things can’t be found if people are concentrating on “obedience” to carnal commandments. There is only “few” spiritual things that were revealed by Jesus and the Apostles to us that are “within” the Tanakh (The Law, the Prophets, and the Writings). There is much much more to uncover, do discover, which has nothing to do with “obedience” to carnal commandments. Those hidden things that are within the Tahakh is what it is to be spiritually minded. Where are those teachers, preachers, pastors? They are out there, but they are few and far between.

    It is said that faith without [good] works is dead. But some have [good] works without faith.

    Ed

    Like

  94. Ed – JoeJoe – Wesley – Anyone

    Ed – You write…
    “One thing that is “clear” to me, however, is that I am oh so glad
    that I didn’t attend seminary. These pastors, preachers, teachers
    are taught how to teach, and what to teach.”

    Seminary? Hmmm? – Or is it – Cemetery???

    Does anyone really have any confidence in a Seminary training people today to be “Pastor/Leader/Reverend” for the “IRS Corporation Church” of any Denomination?

    If anyone was to check the record of any Seminary today training these young wanna-be’s – they would find their record is abysmal, shocking, a failure rate of the greatest magnitude.

    A Seminary should be required by “Law” to post these horrible statistics about their failures, and post the headlines about this dangerous profession, “Pastor/Leader/Reverned” in ALL literature sent to prospective students. 😉

    BUT – They will NOT.

    They have made “Having a degree” – “Pastoral Ministry” – “Leadership”
    into Idols we are to worship… And they will inhance that “Idol”

    And “Pay For” – Dearly – To keep the “Good Ole Boys Club” rolling along.

    BUT – Maybe I’m exaggerating.

    Let’s look at just a few statistics, and dangers, for the “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” and family who are earning a living from these Denominations – and “IRS Corporation Churchs.”

    This is from – The Francis A. Schaeffer Institute – And they say…
    “…pastors are in a dangerous occupation! We are perhaps the single most stressful and frustrating working profession, more than medical doctors, lawyers, politicians…”

    http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=36562&columnid=

    • 77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
    • 71% have felt burned out or depressed.
    • 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
    • 38% are divorced or seriously considering divorce.
    • Fifty percent of pastors’ marriages will end in divorce.
    • Fifteen hundred (1,500) pastors leave the ministry each month
    ….due to moral failure, spiritual burnout, or contention in their churches.

    This is serious business – Yes?
    These folks are supposed to be running the show. And their life is a mess.

    And their treasured “Title/Position” that they paid $ for, “Pastor/Leader/Reverned”
    is quite hard to find in the Bible. But I cudda missed it. 😉

    Like

  95. Ed – JoeJoe – Wesley – Anyone

    This really is serious business for the “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” and their families.
    A “Title” and “Position” – NOT found in the Bible.
    Could that be a clue? Why so many “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” do NOT last?

    This is more info from a ministry working with “Hurting Pastors.”

    http://www.pastoralcareinc.com/statistics/

    # 80% of pastors’ spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
    # 80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
    …………..Many pastor’s children do not attend church now
    ……………because of what the church has done to their parents.
    # 70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
    # 50% of the ministers starting out will NOT last 5 years.
    # 33% state that being in the ministry is an outright hazard to their family.

    #1 reason pastors leave the ministry…
    Church people are not willing to go the same direction and goal of the pastor.

    WOW!!! –
    80% say pastoral ministry negatively affected their family
    70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
    50% will NOT last five years. – NOT a good record for these world class Seminaries.

    So – Am I exaggerating the dangers of “Pastor/Leader/Reverends?” And Seminaries?
    “their record is abysmal, shocking, a failure rate of the greatest magnitude.”

    IMO – these Denominations and Seminaries, training “Pastor/Leader/Reverends,” – “Must” tell these young wanna-bes, **before** they spend all that money for a degree. – That they are entering a most dangerous profession “Pastor/Leader/Reverend.” Dangerous for both the “Pastor/Leader/Reverends.” and their families. Yes?

    And, there’s NOT one of His Disciples with the “Title” Pastor/Reverend in the Bible.

    BUT – they will NOT. – There are too many “Idols” to $ feed.

    So – Does anyone really have any confidence in a Seminary training people today to be “Pastor/Leader/Reverends” for the “IRS Corporation Churchs.” of any Denomination?

    Does anyone really have any confidence in a “Pastor/Leader/Reverend”
    trained by a Seminary training people for a “Title/Position” – NOT in the Bible.

    So – Am I exaggerating the dangers of “Pastor/Leader/Reverends?” And Seminaries?
    “their record is abysmal, shocking, a failure rate of the greatest magnitude.”

    Are they – Seminaries? Or – Are they Cemetarys?

    Yes Ed – I’m glad also that you did NOT attend Seminary.

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  96. Ed Chapman

    Yeah – I hear that a lot – I was “Called.” Heck – I thought I was “Called.” BUT…
    God just gave me what I wanted – My Desires of My heart – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”

    It sounds so spiritual to be “Called – But Today – I think it’s…
    God will give you what you ask for – And – “A Little Bit Extra.” 😦
    “A Little Bit Extra” comes for us thinking we know what’s good for us.

    1 – The Israelites, in the wilderness, wanted something…
    they thought was good for them. Something God hadn’t intended for them.

    God’s people asked for meat. Hmmm? Does that sound like a bad request?
    But – “He gave them flesh till it was coming out of their nostrils.” Num 11:4-20.
    And something “A Little Bit Extra.” He sent leanness to their soul.

    Psalm 106:13-15.
    …they waited not for his counsel: But lusted… and tempted God…
    And he gave them their request; but sent leanness into their soul.

    Warning – Warning – your request can come with – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”

    ———–

    2 – The Israelites, in the promised land, wanted something…
    they thought was good for them. Something God hadn’t intended for them.

    God’s people asked for a King. Hmmm? A Leader???

    God gave them what they asked for – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”

    1 Sam 8:7
    And the LORD said unto Samuel,
    Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee:
    for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me,
    that I should not reign over them.

    God was willing to give them what they asked for – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”
    Samuel warned the people.

    1 Sam 8:11
    This will be the manner of the king that shall reign over you:
    He will take your sons, and appoint them for himself, for his chariots,
    and to be his horsemen; and some shall run before his chariots.

    Your King will take your sons.
    Your King will take your daughters.
    Your King will take your fields.
    Your King will take your vineyards.
    Your King will take your oliveyards.
    Your King will take the tenth of your seed.
    Your King will take your menservants.
    Your King will take your maidservants
    Your King will take your asses.
    Your King will take the tenth of your sheep.
    and you shall be the Kings servants…

    1 Sam 8:19-20
    Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel;
    and they said, Nay; but we will have a king over us…
    That we also may be like all the nations…

    So, they got their King – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”

    Yeah – And How did all these Kings work out for the folks – ouch!!!

    —————–

    Sounds to me like today – Jesus says – I’ll be your “ONE” Shepherd – Leader.

    But – the folks reject Jesus as Shephered…

    And – Want a “Mere Fallible Human” to be their shephered…

    So – we also may be like all the churches… 😦

    When you believe the lie you start to die…

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  97. Ed

    And those who say they are “Called” to Pastoral Ministry.

    Are getting what they asked for – And – “A Little Bit Extra.”

    Like

  98. Amos,

    I think we are going round and round in circles, and our conversations at the moment aren’t getting anywhere. In a lot of ways, we are very much on the same side. I think we both want to see grace increase, and reliance on the Law decrease. Maybe part of the problem is in our definitions. Maybe part of the problem is a difference of semantics or in how we are saying things. I do think you are wrong in your assement that there are no true pastors because nobody can fulfill the qualifications. I highly doubt you will convince me otherwise. Simply put, I believe your hermaneutics, exegesis, logic, and reasoning are wrong. I don’t think you are a bad person because of it. I just think you are wrong.

    Probably the sadest thing to me is that I believe this will keep you from learning and encouragement. There are a lot of good pastors out there. Good people genuinely biblically trying to follow Christ and his example. Can they be hard to find? Perhaps. Because you immediately disqualify them though, that means you should not ever listen to any of them. I am including not only those who have gone to seminary and lead a church, but anybody who has the gift of pastoralship, as you don’t have to lead a church to really be a pastor. If you do, then you contradict yourself and you do not really believe what you say. Thus, you rely on your self. Granted, we must all rely on our selves to one degree or another (aided of course by the Holy Spirit), but if we never listen to the teaching of others, we miss out on what the Holy Spirit is guiding through them. This isn’t about “coming under their authority” of which they have none. It is about allowing God to speak to you through whatever means he wants to, even through the teaching and wisdom of a pastor.

    Good day.

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  99. Pingback: Indoctrinating Your Children with Doctrine | Spiritual Sounding Board

  100. This is a new issue I had not heard of until I was digging thru comments of a twitter feed to see what caused a Christian to be so bitter and found he was somehow connected with this. As to this being connected to doctrine, I still believe our actions are connected to our personal doctrinal beliefs, and we should not so lightly dismis and run down all doctrine. As I was reading this morning I just happen to read this verse:

    2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

    So we are to abide in “Right” doctrine. But let’s not forget the real culprit here and that is the issue of sin. The issue of sin will be at the heart of any wrong doctrine. Sin causes man to wrongly interpret scripture to conform it to how he or she wants it to be.

    Just a side note: We need to be careful that our anger towards things that have happened to the children does not turn to hate and bitterness, driving us away from a right walk w Christ. I have seen what bitterness has done in my own family causing the breakup of a family because one incident, which had nothing to do with abuse, turned a heart from loving God, to anger, then bitterness to sin then to the breakup of a home. I know some of us have been wounded by others, but lets not let their actions control our lives. To escape that bondage we are to pray for and do good to them. (Doctrine of Christ) may God bless each of you.

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  101. Welcome, Darrell. Thanks for your thoughtful comment. I agree with you that the issue is sin, not doctrine. Your scripture reference is a good one.

    Just a side note: We need to be careful that our anger towards things that have happened to the children does not turn to hate and bitterness, driving us away from a right walk w Christ.

    Can you help me out? I’m trying to make sure I’m understanding you – – are you talking about the anger which is a result of the divisiveness we have seen? So in other words, are you saying that too much focus on divisiveness can drive us from Christ?

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  102. Sorry, no I was not referring to issues that seem to divide us. Referring back to my post I was talking about people who have hurt us. I understand getting angry at people who hurt us or even over issues such as this. It angers me to see this kind if stuff. But our anger can quickly move to bitterness pushing us away from God, affecting our decisions, our families… Etc. Since I saw the devestating effect it had in my own family over a very minor thing, I am always checking myself and have a concern for others that they can be healed and not be controlled by those who hurt them. Please don’t take this as I am accusing anyone of anything. It was not my intention. Just my heart to see others to continue in a walk w Jesus and not letting Satan turn them away. Then they can take that and help others

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  103. I appreciate your words, Darrell. It’s too bad that sometimes we have to go through pain to learn valuable lessons. Thanks for sharing your insight here. I’ve taken your words to heart.

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