Complementarianism, Desiring God, Doctrine as Idol, Feminist Agenda, Gender Roles, John Piper

Greg Morse at Desiring God Laments Strong Women

Greg Morse, Desiring God, Complementarian Theology, Misogyny

Greg Morse Desiring God

-by Kathi

Greg Morse at Desiring God recently lamented over the female lead role in the superhero movie, Captain Marvel. Here is what he thinks of society’s view of women in protective roles:

As I consider Disney’s new depiction of femininity in Captain Marvel, I cannot help but mourn. How far we’ve come since the days when we sought to protect and cherish our women.

I wish it were. Instead of engaging the movie’s ideology as mere fiction, a fun escape to another world, we have allowed it to bear deadly fruit on earth. Along with Disney, we abandon the traditional princess vibe, and seek to empower little girls everywhere to be strong like men. Cinderella trades her glass slipper for combat boots; Belle, her books for a bazooka. Does the insanity bother us anymore?

We ought to lament that feminist lust cannot be appeased, even with blood. It takes its daughters and now, calling men’s bluff, advocates for sending its mothers into the flames.

We used to be attuned enough to know how shameful it is for men to hide behind their women, hoping she will take down Goliath. Have we forgotten how precious our women are? Have we forgotten that it is our glory to die in their place?

I would venture to guess that if Mr. Morse was in a profession where his life was in danger every day he would appreciate the women that worked along side him in the same capacity. None of his rhetoric is surprising given John Piper’s views of women in the military. Morse is merely towing the DG party line.

But, then again, his thoughts on women also shouldn’t be surprising since he thinks effeminacy is a sin obscured by Satan.

Twitter has been all abuzz with people commenting on the article. Morse sure got a lot of push back, understandably:

Well, there was someone who liked the article:

To end, I would like to suggest to Mr. Morse that he stop using language such as “our women” and “their women” in his writing. Women are not property of men. Women are human beings and image bearers of God. And women are as willing as men to lay down their lives for others.

340 thoughts on “Greg Morse at Desiring God Laments Strong Women”

  1. Lea said,
    It’s men pitting women against each other. I’m not cool with that and I’m not participating.
    — end quote —

    I’m not sure if that was a deliberate strategy of his or not.

    I’ve just noticed that really sexist men, especially Christian ones on complementarian blogs, only tolerate dissenting views from women if the women heavily Tone Police themselves.

    Those types of men will not accept any woman who is direct and blunt, and they will spend more time complaining about HOW she’s making her point rather than addressing the points she’s making.

    You have to “tip toe” around and write in a very non-confrontational manner with those types of guys on their blogs and forums, if you are a woman writing under a feminine sounding name. I don’t have the patience for that any more.


  2. Julie Anne,

    I tend to agree with you about labeling in today’s current geo-political environment.

    The feminist movement main platform by appearance from the media, is a feminist, must be a Pro-Choice Liberal or a pro-choice moderate leaning liberal. Most who are liberal and pro-choice seem to like being labeled a feminist.

    I can see how offensive it would be for a Pro-Life Conservative who once believe there was room for her views and still be a labeled a Feminist. As it seems her views are being silenced and abandon by the Pro-Choice Liberal Sect within the feminist movement.

    I also think the liberal media does a pretty good job at indoctrinating their audience of trivializing the existence of Conservative Pro-Life or Moderate Pro-Life feminist and so their audience don’t even know they exist.

    I do know a free-spirited self-proclaimed feminist who is liberal and pro-choice that attends the same church as I do and nobody is going to change her mind. And she isn’t ashamed or afraid to admit being a feminist.


  3. I can see how offensive it would be for a Pro-Life Conservative who once believe there was room for her views and still be a labeled a Feminist. As it seems her views are being silenced and abandon by the Pro-Choice Liberal Sect within the feminist movement.

    Actually it’s not liberals who challenge me, it’s conservatives. They are the ones labeling me (and Kathi) as feminists. Case in point:

    Here is part of Necron48’s comment going after Kathi that I didn’t approve: “Thank you Kathi for confirming to me just how nasty, vile, vindictive, and unforgiving you feminists all are, and that includes YOU.”

    Yesterday on Twitter, @MarcusDewaynW said to me: My daughters are not mindless brainwashed feminist like you they even at the tender age are already assuming their God given role.

    What I really think going on is some conservative men think all women should be quiet and soft-spoken (weak). If they encounter a woman who is spirited (strong) or challenges a guy, that is too forward or strong. Any woman who has those characteristics will be labeled a feminist because surely a Christian woman cannot argue or challenge men. That’s not in their gender role. @@


  4. I have read Greg Morse’s article and I have to say it’s makes a fairly old-fashioned person like me cringe. It seems Mr. Morse equates a movie about a female superheroine based on the marvel comics with installing sameness between the sexes and teaching girls to be strong like men. He also blames this film for encouraging women to join the military and fight and combat despite the fact that women were already doing that before even before the military ended the ban on women joining combat units. In his mind, being a superhero and fighting to save the world is a man’s job and having a woman doing it even in a fiction movie is threat to her femininity or her womanhood. The worse is when he compares Captain Marvel to Disney princesses and longs for the days of Cinderella, Belle etc.

    But the film was based on Marvel comics about superheros/heroines not a cut Disney film about princesses. It’s true men and women do have some differences that includes strengths and weaknesses as men on average are physical stronger but that doesn’t mean that can’t sometimes have some of the same gifts, skills, talents and abilities. Women who are strong, bold and daring who can do some courageous and heroic things rather than be a damsel in distress who needs to be saved and protected all the time doesn’t take away her femininity and to suggest it does is kind of sexist. I actually value gallantry and chivalrous virtues among men and wiling to protect when it is necessary or especially out of a sense of honor, care or even out of sacrificial love quoted in Ephesians 5:25 “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her”.

    But I don’t think it’s against nature or God’s will for the woman to sometimes be the gallant one and who protect and save when it’s needed even if it at a risk to her own well-being and involves using some sort of force. I truly value aiding the weaker, the defenseless or those in distress who require aiding and even though it has been mostly(understandingly) expected of men who typically more physically abled, women are not excluded from this as many believe.

    Besides, the bible mentions stories involving several courageous women. There is Deborah, a judge of Israel and a prophet who accompanied Barak, the military commander into battle with Jabin King of Cannan’s army. Also, Jael, a Kenite who assassinated Sisera, the commander of King Jabin’s army with a tent peg. Judith, a widow who met with the invading enemy Holofernes an Assyrian general in is camp on pretense to seduce, got him drunk then beheaded him to save her village. Or the woman in the Book of Judges who throw a milestone at King Abimelech at the tower when his army invaded the city of Thebez crushing his skull in which he then ordered his armor-bearer to finish him off so he wouldn’t be known to have been killed by a woman. Other mentions are Esther, Priscilla, Miriam, Zipporah etc. The act remains, the bible mentions plenty of strong heroines who acted bravely.

    Back to Mr. Morse, this isn’t the first time I read a male Christian writer complain about the so-called feminist agenda in portraying strong and brave female lead characters in film. One comes to mind is Alastair Robert’s article from another website which says something similar and here’s a link, I personally would look forward to seeing “Captain Marvel and think I would enjoy it as I did “Wonder Woman” and don’t see some feminist conspiracy in these films to push aside heroic male leads as some of the hard-core comps seem to think. But show that women can also be strong and heroic in their own way along with men.

    Liked by 1 person

  5. Back to Mr. Morse, this isn’t the first time I read a male Christian writer complain about the so-called feminist agenda in portraying strong and brave female lead characters in film.

    Or in portraying men and boys as nurturing and sensitive. Morse’s hand-wringing spiel reminded me of Owen Strachan, and his online rant several years ago over the Muppet character Baby Bear playing with dolls on “Sesame Street”.

    You can read his silliness here:

    What strikes me about both articles is how completely skewed the authors’ priorities are. Protestant churches are facing a crisis of sexual abuse, potentially as bad as that of the Catholic Church. Mega-churches, para-church groups and their leaders are in the news almost every month, for doing very bad things. And in the face of all this, guys like Morse and Strachan can’t find anything more important to write about than this?

    Liked by 3 people

  6. At one point I woke up to this idea that the vast majority of pastors these days are engaging in ear-tickling. Their own congregations are completely steeped in this, so they aren’t actually trying to change anything as much as they are posturing to their already-convinced sheep. I started realizing that when pastors want to call out something wrong in the congregation, they dance around it gingerly, but when they want to blast “modern” Christianity, it’s an open flame war. Even the grooming of people to accept the authoritarian class system is done by subtle twisting and regular sermons reminding us of our “depravity”.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Good catch, Lea! I forgot he wrote that article. So, now we have a timeline:

    1/18/19 – Morse writes about taking a trip to Disneyland (or World) and seeing men “behaving” the following way: lispy talk, light gestures, soft mannerisms, and flamboyantly joking.

    2/5/19 – Morse writes that effeminacy is a sin obscured by Satan.

    3/11/19 – Morse laments over Captain Marvel and strong women.

    Instead of writing about a happy trip and good memories with his family at Disneyland, he has spent three articles blasting society. I wonder how long it’s going to take him to get over that trip.


  8. Julie Anne,

    If they believe you are a Social Liberal Feminist and that you support Pro-Choice doesn’t mean it is OK to verbally attack you in a uncivilized manner or say or write mean things.

    If you are in a Social Liberal/Moderate Feminist who supports Pro-Choice, it shouldn’t stop you from openly admitting it in your own blog. You went through a lot more crap and exercised a lot bravery while being sued from your former Pastor.

    I will add however, there is nothing I’ve seen that gives me the impression this site is managed by Conservatives, but so what? It doesn’t surprise me that you don’t get less push back from social liberals because your blog doesn’t really focus on the deep weaknesses and sins of far leftist liberals.

    Many on the left are atheist and have profited by mocking those that are Christian, which is a different type of poison spreading into our society.

    If you are a Pro-Life Conservative and your methodically expressed your views in a civilized way and you had millions of followers on a web site with advertisers supporting you enough to expand and have your own radio show, you will get personally challenged (and severely) by Pro-Choice Liberal Feminist and leftist non-feminist groups by both males and females alike. (and probably at some point be referred as a racist) They would have full access of the Social Media including CNN and MSNBC and all major networks. I would be able to hear your name on NPR. I’m sure Rachel Maddow would have a field day with you. Your name might even by mentioned on Bill Maher, though he does defend free speech.

    Either way Conservatives and Liberals shouldn’t be verbally attacking one another in the manner that they do. Both at times seem to fabricate a crisis out of thin air. Even when Obama or Trump play golf or go home for Christmas is up for criticism as they work while they “vacation”. They don’t give each other any room for debate or free thinking.

    There is at an equal amount of push back against conservatives, libertarians and even some free speech liberals who were invited to speak on college campuses by student conservative groups, from coast to coast are being severely silenced (led by radical professors) not allowed to have a voice in a civilized manner from the radical left students using any means to disrupt and in some cases, spark riots. Berkeley is renowned for that. (I’m originally from that area)

    I am a libertarian, I will also add, that with every radical liberal leftist I’ve chatted with don’t want economics involved in the conversation, because the farther I go, they have to realize their leftist socialist views doesn’t make any economic sense.

    It isn’t just Dems and liberals, but even some pubs whom I’ve written (like Steve Moore) who doesn’t make economic sense by criticizing Fed Chair Powell, on his masterful policies that will prevent our economy from over-heating. Moore thinks 0% yields from a savings account is ok, forgetting that if seniors could get 5% yields, they wouldn’t have to work into retirement and compete for jobs they use to create which stimulates economic balance in our society.


  9. D, it’s an interesting point, but I’ll disagree. One of the arguments for complementarian women-only church leadership is… If Jesus wanted women to be apostles, why didn’t he just choose a woman to be his disciple?

    My view of this is akin to Jesus’s teaching on divorce. Like “A Few Good Men” – Jesus said that the Israelites couldn’t handle the truth. So, we see a great many issues that are confused because God did not instantly reveal his will and teaching to the backwards generations. For example, polygamy was allowed, and even, in a sense, commanded to preserve a land inheritance in Israel, but even before polygamy (which was invented by a God-hater), God had said “the two shall become one flesh”, which was a hint at the truth of one man, one woman. But, by the time of Moses, polygamy was so entrenched as a male right and cultural necessity that I think God condoned it simply because they couldn’t handle it otherwise.

    In the same way, Jesus came with a specific message of freedom, but could even the disciples have handled it if he had announced that women weren’t property, and in fact, should be equal in every respect? Remember how many of Jesus’s disciples left when he said “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink.” (John 6:55), so there was always a balancing act between teaching uncomfortable truth and revealing too much for them to handle.

    So, in the same way I respect someone’s right to refuse to make something as divisive as abortion a front-and-center issue.

    I will say that I am very, very strong in my beliefs, but the more I see how the issue is being used to galvanize not a respect for life, but a destruction of women’s rights, the more I refuse to make it a litmus test for a candidate’s qualifications. For example, although I support women being fully informed about what they are doing, I don’t support requiring women to submit to a “transvaginal sonogram” – that is a device inserted in her vagina to meet the imaging requirements during the first trimester due to Texas law. While I believe in rights for the unborn, I don’t believe in charging mothers who miscarry by scrutinizing their diet, habits and lifestyles. So, what I see is that “pro-life” has morphed into some twisted argument for violating women and intensely scrutinizing them, beyond anything that an ordinary human should accept. So, rather, I support local crisis pregnancy centers who are helping women to regain their sense of self-esteem rather than seeing worth only in pleasing their abusive boyfriends. Helping couples build the proper support network to raise a child, and… support them well beyond one decision or one birth. Those are the people who are doing the work to end abortion!

    It’s the same way I’ve changed on the death penalty. While I still believe that it is legitimate to have a death penalty, I started looking at statistics and stories and realized that our justice system is horribly skewed and flawed. For example, Ken Anderson, a district attorney, was recently charged with withholding evidence that would have exonerated a man who was convicted for murder. If my understanding is correct, there are other cases that he is suspected of tampering with the evidence to secure a conviction. From the article,

    “Very few prosecutors are ever prosecuted for their misconduct in court so this is something that’s very special. It’s unusual,” Pace Law School professor Bennett Gershman told “It’s almost unprecedented. I can’t think of any other case like it.”

    Unprecedented that a district attorney would be held accountable for malfeasance? That is truly scary!

    But, what punishment did this man get for sending an innocent man to jail for decades?

    “A former Texas district attorney agreed Friday to serve 10 days in jail for withholding evidence that could have stopped an innocent man from going to prison for nearly 25 years — apparently the first time a prosecutor has been sent to jail for concealing evidence helpful to the defense.”

    So… while I fully support the death penalty, I also don’t believe our country is mature enough to handle it.


  10. Mark,

    I not exactly sure what point I made, that you disagree with.

    I don’t expect the managers of this blog to expose their social ideology. I also think they shouldn’t be too concerned about being labeled by exposing it either. From what I gather the managers of this blog are being labeled in a mean way already.

    It seems this site values truth and if there is mis-characterization I’d rather know that it is a mis-characterization instead of being left in the dark.

    I can tell by Kathi’s writings, that she didn’t lean Conservative and she confirmed it to me yesterday..

    I have been labeled and mis-characterized incorrectly in this blog by some, so I just go right out and say I’m a conservative leaning libertarian who doesn’t believe in identity politics. I was raised by a strong single feminist mom for a number of years and it was through her guidance that helped me see the realities of life through her eyes and make me appreciate all that she did for me.

    As for the death penalty and our country’s lack of maturity, you might be on to something as we have a Supreme Court that is more and more interpreting law more so on identity politics instead of the law. Conservative vs Liberal,, Roe v Wade.

    I thought the law should be pure, but it isn’t because we have a Supreme Court that is partisan.

    If I was a judge in California, it would be my responsibility to uphold the law and according to the law, when there is no doubt that The Dating Game Killer committed those brutal murders, I would’ve had him executed years ago, instead of wasting millions of dollars keeping him alive, no matter how immature our nation is.


  11. @CuriousThinker:

    The worse is when he compares Captain Marvel to Disney princesses and longs for the days of Cinderella, Belle etc.

    Comparing two completely-different genres from two different studios of two different times.

    Even Disney is having fun with their “Disney Princess” reputation. Look at some of their recent heroines like Judy Hopps (Zootopia) and Moana. Including Maui’s dismissal of Moana as “Just another Princess — your father’s a chief, you have a cute animal sidekick — PRINCESS.” (Even in a fantasy Polynesia, the word has gotten around…)


  12. @Daisy:

    To this day, I cannot understand how any woman can compare getting a snag in their pantyhose or something equally stupid to rape.

    It’s a Secular form of Sin-Levelling (upward polarity).
    When “Rape” gets redefined down to mean “anything My Ego as a Woman don’t like”, what do you call what used to be called “Rape”, eh, My Dear Wormwood?


  13. D, I was responding to this:

    “If you are in a Social Liberal/Moderate Feminist who supports Pro-Choice, it shouldn’t stop you from openly admitting it in your own blog. You went through a lot more crap and exercised a lot bravery while being sued from your former Pastor.”

    It seemed you were saying that Julie Anne / Kathi should say what their beliefs are on any given issue. I was saying that even Jesus didn’t do that – he pushed the boundaries, definitely, but we’ve been progressively working to understand the truth of what he said ever since.

    As has been discussed, no single verse in the Bible specifically spells out that slavery is evil, but the church wrestled with culture and scripture and ultimately came to that conclusion.

    I think it’s wise for the moderators to focus this blog narrowly on abuse within the church and avoid the many other hot-button issues out there ready to distract.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. I lean libertarian, too. I think the country was founded on the idea that any source of pooled power was going to become authoritarian and corrupt. I think that each branch of the government has figured out ways to throw its weight around. I do appreciate that the Supreme Court has struck down “unconstitutional” laws, but I think that they have alternately invented rights that did not exist (e.g. a right to privacy), and they have destroyed rights that did exist (e.g. unreasonable search and seizure) in a sort of governmental power grab. Each branch has done this. “Executive Orders” are simply the president trying to pass his own legislation, and Congress created permanent commissions (SEC, FCC, IRS, EPA, etc.) that have the authority to pass laws, execute those laws and then judge people guilty of those laws. Congress invented for itself the right to jail people for contempt, and the right to subpoena witnesses to testify before Congressional panels.

    So, it shouldn’t be surprising that the court has now discovered that it can legislate from the bench. For example, the Massachusetts Supreme Court issued an ultimatum to the legislature that they had to pass a law by a certain date. Roberts famously reworded PPACA’s individual mandate in a way that made it constitutionally palatable, despite the fact that the law itself was unconstitutional as written.


  15. Mark,

    Jesus already knew what is inside the hearts of those around him, by their actions and what was inside their heart, after all he is God in the flesh.

    As I said to you prior, I don’t expect the managers to expose their ideology. Though the main concern for not exposing ideologies, is to avoid being labeled and the managers are already being labeled anyway.

    I found this site after enduring the heavy handed Spiritual Abuse simply because I was wanting to know the doctrine of my former Pastor. He refused to disclose his beliefs and as it turned out he was purposely (and secretly) trying to indoctrinate the congregation into becoming a Reformed Calvinist Church.

    If he had revealed his doctrine, there would’ve never have been no heavy handed Spiritual Abuse, because the church would’ve either shrunk down to nothing or the Church Board would’ve dismissed him within the first 3 months of his tenure.

    This site by appearance focuses on abuses primarily from those that might be labeled as “Conservative”. So after a period of time, I pretty much have had the feeling the managers of this site weren’t conservative, but that was just an assumption. I don’t like making assumptions or “labeling” as I’m a facts guy,

    There is no reason to verbally attack someone whether they lean Conservative or Liberal.

    This site does have categories and feminism is one of them. It is a healthy secular discussion to have. Actually this article, is in SSB’s feminism category.

    I took a journalism class and though my grammar and punctuation didn’t improve, we spent a few months on yellow journalism. Where writers don’t share their ideologies with their mouths but instead with where they consistently put their focus but also what to avoid or if something can’t be avoided, it is handled with kid gloves. Over time it becomes evident what the ideology of the writer is.

    Fox and CNN and all the Networks do it all the time, but now of course they are way more blatant as to what their leanings are.


  16. This site by appearance focuses on abuses primarily from those that might be labeled as “Conservative”.

    That is not intentional. It might be because my background was conservative (and fundamentalist). I know I do have abuse stories from pastors in churches or pastors that are middle of the road (Eagle Heights, The Bridge, Bill Hybels, etc).

    As I shared my personal story, people connected with my history: homeschool movement, purity culture, modesty rules, quiver-full, Patriarchy. They, in turn, shared with me more personal stories, and so on.


  17. D. “Jesus already knew what is inside the hearts of those around him, by their actions and what was inside their heart, after all he is God in the flesh.”

    I think that’s dangerous theology. If Jesus took any advantage in being “God in the flesh”, which he truly was, then he could not have been the perfect example. And that’s one of the reasons why authoritarian churches can reject the very things Jesus did. (e.g. Jesus rebuked the Pharisees, but that’s not okay for us to do today, because it’s only okay for God to rebuke church leaders). So, then the authoritarians can pick and choose and say (as happened to me), it was okay for Jesus to be angry with the money changers, but it’s not okay for normal Christians (i.e. non-church leaders) to get angry. That’s clearly sin.

    Jesus was a prophet, and sometimes what he was given to speak attested to his divinity: “I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world.”They did not realize that He had been speaking to them about the Father. So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.” (John 8:26-28)


  18. D, meant to cover this the first post. To provide some insight into what JA is saying, if you read Galatians and Corinthians, I think that Paul is dealing with two completely different churches and two completely different forms of abuse. The Corinthian church was seemingly the liberal church where there was complete chaos, and the true Christians were getting beat up because they expected some sort of righteousness. It seemed their worship services devolved into everyone speaking in tongues because they wanted to show off their gifts. They probably rallied around the man who “had” his own mother as an example of the “tolerance” Christians needed to have. They asserted their Christian liberty even when it caused other Christians to stumble. That is definitely not the sort of abuse we have experienced, except, perhaps the way the churches are bent on restoring pastors caught in sin.

    On the other hand, the Galatian church was adding all sorts of requirements on top of salvation. If you weren’t circumcised, you weren’t saved. If you didn’t follow the dietary restrictions. If you didn’t celebrate the feasts. And then they were creating a pecking order based on who appeared the most righteous. That sounds way more familiar to me. If you aren’t a “church member” you’re not a Christian. If your children aren’t baptized, you’re not a Christian. If you weren’t baptized by immersion, you’re not a Christian. If you don’t homeschool. If you use birth control. So, I think people who are attracted to this site are much more likely to be people with a legalistic / conservative church background, rather than liberal.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Julie Anne,

    Thanks (by the way) for having this dialogue with me. I’ll add I don’t like it when you are verbally attacked I know the feeling as attacking ends the conversation.

    I never heard of Patriarchy accept here and never followed it to understand it.

    I’ve heard Patriarch being used in reference to the eldest male in a family and Matriarch as the eldest female. Sometimes they are spouses.

    Must be a difference or is there?

    I grew up Catholic and I had to be modest growing up myself. Oh and the only form of birth control that was acceptable was the rhythm method and I guess abstinence which also is occurring using the rhythm method. I was surrounded by big families.

    We were tempted to home school our kids, because we could see the academic standards were lowering and secular deterioration of values and tolerance of bullying in the public school our kids were attending. (my daughter was relentlessly bullied by other girls, because of her red hair)

    We didn’t have the 15K or 20K annual funds needed to put them in a choice private school so we opted to move back into a sleepy North Sacramento Valley town in the mid 1990’s.

    At that time the standards were still high, in that area’s public schools system. But by the time my youngest graduated High School the gangs had moved in and a childhood friend of one of my kids was shot and killed by a gang member.

    The leaders running the state (current and past governors and mayors) are so soft on everything (except traffic tickets) that even when it comes to upholding penalties set by voters, to execute a harden and proven serial murderous/torturing/rapist such as The Dating Game Killer a stay.

    It might be by coincidence that this thread’s focus’ that the abuse is primarily by conservatives in church or otherwise. But it is equally difficult for me to ignore liberal church leaders message of racism or political leaders being soft on crime and upholding the law as well and yes, the moral issue of abortion on demand even when the intimacy is consensual.

    I didn’t pay attention to the leanings of my former pastor, maybe he as a conservative, but it didn’t matter to me what he was. (heck I’m a conservative)
    I just knew he was a covert Calvinist who was heavy handily force feeding his doctrine down our throats, while secretly referencing the Book of TULIP, in an abusive, reckless and misleading way while verbally bullying some women. (some might suggest his antics as sin)

    It does feel like the way conservatism is being referred on this thread, is that conservatism is being labeled as bad and even sexist. While nothing is said on some really bad beliefs and sexist that some of the leftist embrace.

    But if we aren’t into labeling in this thread, then we probably shouldn’t be labeling anybody whether they are conservative or liberal,, right?


  20. I grew up Catholic and I had to be modest growing up myself. Oh and the only form of birth control that was acceptable was the rhythm method and I guess abstinence which also is occurring using the rhythm method. I was surrounded by big families.

    You for got Natural Family Planning which is far more detailed than rhythm method and actually works if there is faithful “charting.” Charting is in quotes because when I did it (quite successfully for planning and not planning our babies), I had to chart my cycles, basal body temp and take note of other biological changes that occur at specific times of the month. Now, of course, they can do this online.

    It does feel like the way conservatism is being referred on this thread, is that conservatism is being labeled as bad and even sexist. While nothing is said on some really bad beliefs and sexist that some of the leftist embrace.

    You’d have to give examples of what you are referring to. I really haven’t been paying much attention to leftist/conservatism in this thread because that hasn’t been the topic.


  21. That is not intentional. It might be because my background was conservative (and fundamentalist).

    That is how I’ve always read it, Julie Anne. Any attempt to map it to you being an ‘anti-conservative’ has appeared to be about dismissing what you say imo.

    And the idea that all of this maps neatly to politics in general is mistaken. That’s not your focus. And I’m not here to talk about politics in general, so it’s annoying when people try to make it about that. Unless they are saying that patriarchy is solely conservative, which if so, is a problem in and of itself. Abuse certainly isn’t limited, nor is poor treatment of women.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Before the film gets forgotten in the interesting discussion it has caused, I took my younger daughter to see it and quite enjoyed it, as she did. I’m not terribly into these fantasy fiction movies, though I liked Ant Man. They can be entertaining, especially with a good dose of dry humour.

    Morse might have a point in discussing modern society and unisex, of the confusion between male and female. I don’t think this film was suitable for this, if only because the central character, far from being a butch or ‘manly’ woman, was nothing of the kind, and only had the pseudo-supernatural powers this genre of film contains. It really is just fantasy.

    Liked by 1 person

  23. Kathi,

    Thanks for the extra background on Morse. Not that I was any happier to read this batch of drivel from him.

    What on earth is his problem with non-fat lattes and salad? More importantly, what possible problem could God have with men enjoying such things? Honestly, how inane can this man be?

    Pointing out all of the blatant falsehoods and nonsense in Morse’s article would take all day, but here’s another lowlight:

    Lispy sentences, light gestures, soft mannerisms, and flamboyant jokes were everywhere to be seen — on display for a park flooded with children. No hiding it. No shame. No apologizing. This perversion of masculinity warranted no commercials.

    So, “light gestures” and “soft mannerisms” are to be considered a “perversity of manhood”, something to be ashamed of. Apart from the fact that Morse explains this assertion precisely nowhere (and therefore fails to back it up), it makes me wonder whether he’s ever seen “Flutterhands” Piper on stage. If such traits condemn someone as less than a “real” man, then hasn’t Morse just condemned his own boss at DesiringGod?

    And then this:

    Godly men are neither severe nor effeminate. They have a sword, but use it against the dragon, not the princess in the castle. They are safe to those God calls them to protect, dangerous to the flesh and the kingdom of darkness.

    This might be true (although Morse’s definition of “effeminate” doesn’t impress me so far). But what does it say about the leaders of Bethlehem Baptist, Piper’s old church? As Julie Anne publicized not too long ago, they’ve excommunicated a victim of domestic emotional abuse for refusing to reconcile with her unrepentant ex-husband. These men have teamed up with the dragon against the princess. Why isn’t Morse calling them out for their “perversion of manhood”? For that matter, why hasn’t Piper done so?

    To this point, I see Greg Morse as pretty much a joke, and not a very funny one.


  24. You nailed it, SKIJ! Watch any John Piper video and you will see “Flutterhands.”. So true!

    Furthermore, the “list sentences” is showing hatred toward gays. How Christ-like is that?


  25. I find it intriguing that TGC and other Neocalvinists don’t know how to handle transgender. It’s not surprising that there is a chosen “male” role and anyone who doesn’t fit their narrow definition of masculinity is “effeminate” and worthy of scorn.

    It shouldn’t be surprising, because they’ve put everyone into this or that role-based box, and anyone who doesn’t fit their box either gets pushed back into it, or gets to be the butt of all their anti-Christian jokes.

    I’ve been thinking of writing an article on all the circular reasoning present in their “husband/wife” role boxes.
    – God created gender roles and following the gender roles should make you happy
    – If you’re following the gender roles and you’re not happy, roll a die because it might be:
    a. You’re really not following the gender roles
    b. You’re following the gender roles, but you don’t have joy because you lack faith
    c. You’re following the gender roles, but there’s some other sin in your life that God is making you miserable for.
    d. Wait, life is all about suffering. God made gender roles all about suffering in his name, so suck it up and be happy!
    e. You picked the wrong guy and now God is punishing you for it.
    f. You picked the right guy. God all along really wanted you to suffer by spending the rest of your life serving a guy who abuses you so that you could be a victim in his name.

    Of course, this is all setting the stage for “ask your pastor and do whatever he says” because that’s the ultimate goal of authoritarian teaching – create a desperate sense of imbalance in the victim and then make whatever the pastor says seem like the right answer.


  26. @SKIJ:

    To this point, I see Greg Morse as pretty much a joke, and not a very funny one.

    Like one character in local Fandom:
    “A Legend in his own mind; a bad joke in everyone else’s.”


  27. Mark said, “Of course, this is all setting the stage for “ask your pastor and do whatever he says” because that’s the ultimate goal of authoritarian teaching – create a desperate sense of imbalance in the victim and then make whatever the pastor says seem like the right answer.”

    Brilliant statement that not only applies to the institutional visible worldly c’hurch system, but is a reflection of any religious or secular system who seeks power and control over its “lower beings/lower laity.”

    So, what happens when the individual, blessed with a mind, talents, and a strong belief that Jesus has supreme “authority” over each soul, does not follow the “herd mentality” of the p’astor, church board, deacons and deaconesses, elder “board”, or those within the religious system that believe they are more important than those they deem the “lessers,” but have not quite slithered their way into the l’eadership paradigm, do, to protect their souls, their families, and most importantly, their faith in Jesus Christ, alone for salvation?

    Not all folks within the leadership of any particular religious or secular system have “pure” motives. Money, fame, personal glory, and a host of other “worldly” factors play into the infrastructure of personal gain…..and some abuse the Name of Jesus Christ for their own glory.

    I believe the political agenda influences folks far more that the teachings of Christ within the western religious system for most c’hurch folks attending their 501c. 3 institutional systems do not even read the Holy Scriptures for themselves. It is far easier to have someone else interpret the Word for you, rather than dig in with a pitch fork and discern the Scriptures for thyself.

    As far as the east is from the west, I would not trust a p’astor , or self righteous “theologian” to interpret the Scriptures, for the “work” of faith begins with the born again believer/individual. Corporate salvation does not exist in the written Word, for salvation is imparted to the “individual.”

    And God, the Holy Spirit, lives, resides and teaches that each soul who loves Jesus as their personal Savior, desires to follow HIM, and not any man.

    The only Good Shepherd, is Jesus Christ, as He stated, “I AM THE GOOD SHEPHERD.” To date, I have not found a human replacement (replacement theology) that comes remotely close to my Risen LORD (JESUS).

    And this makes the religious and some secular folks very, very, very bitter and angry! When Jesus says that He has all “authority,” it’s easy to believe Him for He has not lied to me yet!

    And what peace that gives to me soul


  28.’s not enough to be born male or female but gender depends on playing with “the right” toys and wear “the right” colors. Playing with a doll makes a boy turn into a girl.

    And instead of teaching kids important life lessons parents should have Disney and other corporations do it for them.

    Morse has more in common with liberals than he realizes.


  29. Women can be heroines, I agree with that. Of course there are no women in the bible who actually fought in war.


  30. “Then all the wicked and worthless men among those who went with David said, “Because they did not go with us, we will not give them any of the spoil that we have recovered, except to every man his wife and his children, that they may lead them away and depart.” Then David said, “You must not do so, my brothers, with what the Lord has given us, who has kept us and delivered into our hand the band that came against us. And who will listen to you in this matter? For as his share is who goes down to the battle, so shall his share be who stays by the baggage; they shall share alike.” So it has been from that day forward, that he made it a statute and an ordinance for Israel to this day.”

    I think that is instructive about how narrow some peoples’ definitions of “fighting in a war” can be, and also, what the God’s opinion is of those who choose to do so.


  31. And also what about violence against women? Scholars have said that Sisera raped or tried to rape Jael and that she fought him back and killed him, Judges 5 says that she killed him at her feet (with a tent peg and a hammer and drove the tent peg through his temples and into the ground, and he died in her hands!) while he tried to rape her! And a few chapters later, we can see the woman of Thebez who was clearly in danger! That tower that she was in also had other women in there as well as children and old people, because most( if not all of the younger men) died trying to stop Abimelech! So trapped in a corner and with no way out (except to jump off, which would’ve killed them as well!) threw down a piece of a millstone at his head when he tried to set the tower on fire to murder them all, and it broke his skull wide open! Did Abimelech have any compassion in his heart towards the woman in the tower who threw that millstone at his head in self-defence? Unfortunately not, instead Judges 9:54″ Then he called hastily unto.the young man his armourbearer, and said unto him, Draw thy sword, and slay me, that men say not of me, A woman slew him. And his young man thrust him through, and he died.” So Abimelech is remembered as being a killer, a thug and a misogynist who had no shame in murdering scared women and children, who he had trapped inside of the tower! The woman of Thebez is remembered as being a survivor and a heroine who saved lives! And teaching Abimelech’s misogyny as him having “pride as a man, because it would make him look weak being killed by a woman.” is wrong and dangerous, because it teaches women and girls not to stand up for themselves and be weaklings and just sit thier and let some man with no self-esteem like Abimelech, kill them and also let some other man with no self-esteem rape them and don’t try to fight back. So to all women and girls, DO NOT LISTEN TO SATAN’S LIE FROM THE MOUTH OF ABIMELECH IN JUDGES 9:54,he made himself look weak as a man by trying to murder her in the tower along with all of those other women and children as well! Instead, listen to Our Heavenly Father’s truth in Judges 4:9! And also there is this story outside of the bible about this nurse named Susan Walters who killed a Vietnam veteran named Ed Haffey in self-defence WITH JUST HER BAREHANDS, by putting him in a chokehold until he stopped moving! (She crushed Ed Haffey’s throat and he died in her hands!)He was hired by her husband Michael Kuhnhausen to kill her so that he could make money off of thier house and promised Ed that he would give him 50,000 dollars ( Susan’s retirement money.) if he would murder her. So it is the truth of Our Heavenly Father, that it is not shameful for a man to be killed by a woman that they are trying to rape or murder! It is only shameful in Satan’s ( AKA Lucifer) mind!


  32. And Susan’s story of how she survived and completely and totally dominated her male attacker Edward Dalton Haffey, who was a military guy and how she literally put him to death with her soft,smooth,fleshy,delicate and feminine barehands (Vietnam Veteran and Hitman! She weighed 230 pounds and was 5’4 he weighed 190 pounds and was 5’9, he was 59 years old while she was 51 years old!), happened on September 6, 2006! And her husband Michael Kuhnhausen who hired him, died in June of 2014, which was 92 days before his release! He died of prostate cancer which went to the bone!


  33. And also Ed Haffey had a near lethal dose of cocaine in his system on the day he died at the hands of Susan! He was a known cocaine abuser, so it’s amazing how Susan was able to completely dominate this man! And also Jael completely dominated her attacker as well, both Sisera and Ed Haffey both strong warriors died in the soft, smooth, delicate, beautiful, and girly hands of women!


  34. Sisera and his army spent 20 years oppressing Israel and raping Israelite women, but when the first and only female judge Deborah arose as a mother in Israel She and her general Barak defeat Sisera’s army! Sisera than goes running away to Jael’s tent like the coward he was and while he is there, he attempted to brutally and violently rape Jael, but she completely dominates him instead and he dies in her beautiful and feminine girly soft hands! Ed Haffey fought in the Vietnam from 1964-75, than in 1991 he wanted to murder his ex girlfriend Georgia Lee Dutton so that he and the other two guys that were with him could continue to do illegal activities relating to drugs and one of the other two guys that he had with him was the actual killer and murdered her with his barehands. I don’t know what happened to her killer and the other guy that was with him and haffey I think he got thrown in jail. But Haffey himself did get thrown in jail in three years later. But he was let out in 2003, than three years later Susan’s husband Michael Kuhnhausen to murder her for fifty thousand dollars, but his plan backfired. He ended up dying in Susan’s beautiful, feminine and girly hands! Both women literally had the strength of giantesses!


  35. So it is a blessing from Our Heavenly Father that all three of these women had to kill these Terrible and horrible men(Sisera, Abimelech the son of Jerubbaal and Edward Dalton Haffey.) that tried to murder them, it’s not nice to kill people that are not trying to kill you!


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