Kevin Swanson; Larry Nassar; Child Sex Abuse; Rachael Denhollander
-by Kathi with editorial comments by Julie Anne
Kevin Swanson’s February 9, 2018 broadcast on Generations covered the recent gymnastics and sexual abuse case by now-convicted sexual predator, Dr. Larry Nassar. Right Wing Watch picked up his broadcast and noted that he blames immodesty in the sport of gymnastics for Dr. Larry Nassar’s behavior.
Julie Anne texted me at work and asked if I would be willing to write a snarky post about Swanson [JA here = is it possible to do a Kevin Swanson post sans snark? Serious question.] As much I can’t stand to listen to him speak, I decided to listen to the whole broadcast. Kathi is a glutton for punishment. I only asked if she would be willing to write about the modesty part that Right Wing Watch reported on. In fact, here is where she tells me on Messenger:
My (unfortunate) experience with listening to Swanson over the years has brought me to the understanding that he is never sympathetic to victims of sexual abuse, so I wanted to see if this broadcast would be any different. My snarky side turned to my angry side as I realized that he hasn’t changed one bit.
***
Starting off feeling snarky…
Swanson starts by blaming the civil magistrate for not doing anything about this twenty years ago. Does Swanson not understand that Nassar did not stand before a judge until 2016 because of all the people who were protecting him?
Starting to feel the anger creep in…
He then moves on to blame the parents for not attending medical examinations with their children. Ok, this is ridiculous. Did he not read the news articles? He sexually abused many of the girls WHILE the moms were in the room. It’s in the court documents. He positioned himself between the mom/adult and the girl. With one hand, he massaged on the outside of the clothes, the other hand couldn’t be seen by the mom. It was abusing beneath a draped towel or sheet. He was that brazen! There were reports that he was talking to either the mom or girl during this time. Nobody would have had a clue.
Does Swanson not understand that much of the abuse happened while the victims were at training centers or in college? Did he stop to think for one moment the guilt that a lot of these parents must feel for the abuse that happened to their daughters? I sure hope no parent/survivor listens to his podcast. Swanson follows this by stating that a father’s responsibility is to teach his daughter that the world is a dangerous place.
This is where I tell Julie Anne, “Can you believe what he said?!”…
those 3 dots mean something not suitable for delicate eyes
Swanson shifts the blame to the women now and says:
Young women have a responsibility, and they need to be trained in this. Our daughters need to be trained that they have a responsibility before God to cry out when something shameful is going on. We don’t hide sin. We don’t hide our sin and we don’t hide other people’s sins.
He’s nuts once again, and did not read the reports. Many of the girls had no idea that he was abusing them. Of course they didn’t like that he was digitally penetrating them, but he had them convinced that this was medical treatment. Their coaches said he was the best. Everyone said he was the best. They trusted him. It wasn’t until they got older and started putting 2 and 2 together that they realized this wasn’t medical treatment. Sorry, Kathi, carry on. . . Swanson then brings up Deuteronomy 22: 23 – 24 “If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.” He follows with the responsibility of the young woman:
She’s got to cry out! She’s got to cry out! She’s got to cry out! Absolutely, she’s got to cry out! Nooooooo, just no!
***
Starting to breathe again…
At the end of the broadcast Swanson commends Rachael Denhollander and praises God that she cried out, even if it was years later. I can’t believe he has the gall to commend her after criticizing the women for not crying out and hiding sexual sin.
Swanson then mentions Rachael’s interview with Christianity Today and commends her for speaking about the covering up of abuse/homosexuality at Sovereign Grace Ministries and by CJ Mahaney. (Specifically he states covering up instances of “homosexuality against little boys or fornication against little girls.”) Oh, for crying out loud!!! Again, Swanson gets it wrong. SGM and Mahaney are accused of covering up child sex abuse, not homosexuality. Is this guy living on our planet? He also adds that Rachael may be “overstating the facts” which leads him to his final thoughts.
Swanson’s final question asks whether or not churches should report abuse to civil magistrates. WARNING, WARNING, KEVIN SWANSON’S CHURCH IS NOT A SAFE PLACE IF HE ASKS SUCH A QUESTION. His answer is that churches should not take anonymous tips seriously, the church needs solid evidence that sin has occurred, and there must be two or more witnesses to the sin. Really? He is truly nuts. How many sexual abuse cases have 2 or more witnesses? I need blood pressure meds. Wait . . . do I have blood pressure meds?
Not once through this entire broadcast does Swanson blame Larry Nassar for his acts of sexual assault. Instead, he proves that he continues to remain unsympathetic to victims of abuse by heaping shame and blame upon them. Un-freakin’-believable. Wow. Kathi, I am never going to ask you to do a K. Swanson post again. This about did me in.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Hmm. So Tamar wasn’t raped because there weren’t two witnesses and she didn’t cry out? Why am I not surprised that these so-called Reformed exegetical pastors simply ignore and ignore scripture so that they can get on their patriarchal hobby horses?
I’ve heard some things about Swanson through other channels and he’s pretty slimy.
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Pardon my ignorance but WHO IS KEVIN SWANSON? And who made him the king?
I felt anger rising in my belly. Gymnastics requires clothing that is not loose for free movement and safety.
Any man who looks at a kid in a leo with sex in his mind and heart is a perverted deviant. I think any many who sticks with the theory that it is a womans fault is guilty of the perversion himself. Why else would he defend the abuser?
As for the rest of his BS he is a liar and the truth is not in him. There will be justice for these men in the and it will be too late.
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An attorney actually helped me with the section in this blog post addressing that common demand to have two or three witnesses: “Ryan Fullerton of Immanuel Baptist Church addresses that ‘innocent until proven guilty’ question.” http://www.heresthejoy.com/2018/01/that-old-innocent-until-proven-guilty-question/
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Disgusting. Consider my blood pressure well and truly raised.
Do none of these me start to wonder why, of all the fault that can placed, they go immediatley for the victims, and the children, and the women to find imaginary blame?
And I should say also, in purity culture, where sex is not thoroughly discussed except to say ‘don’t do it’ and ‘if something happens it’s always a girls fault’ how on earth can these young girls be expected to know when something is even wrong? When it comes from an doctor. A doctor!!!! This has nothing to do with what anyone is wearing and it is DISGUSTING to hear that given as an excuse and minimization for dr Nassar, who knew exploitive deleted what he was doing!
I just. If someone says something like this they are not worth listening to. Tell them so and walk out.
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This is rhetorical question, but how come they always seem to condemn homosexuality while waffling around like a soggy plate of noodles on child sexual abuse?
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Personally, I don’t see how. From where I sit, the man is either a villain or a fool. I can’t imagine how you could write about him with neither snark nor anger.
This disgusting podcast of his is a prime example.
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Rebecca, Fullerton seems very Gothard-like. He takes what seems to be obvious truth and then turns it on its head and then makes you feel like a fool for believing such foolish drivel. He’s clearly grooming his church to doubt their own judgment and gut so that when anything comes out about him or someone he likes, he can manipulate them into thinking anything he wants.
I wonder how Fullerton would backpedal when it comes to Black Lives Matter. By his own definition, no single police officer could ever be judge, jury and executioner of anyone unless there were multiple witnesses and the suspect was tried in a court of law. So, therefore, he should be railing against police brutality, right? Doubt it.
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I find it outrageously sickening that Kevin reminds us that male church leaders are going to remain relentless. Theirs is a pursuit to back/ support perpetrators of the most vile nature as a means to keep a heavy first if power over women and children. He does not hear God, he is attuned to the heart to wickedness, curses and condemnation which he had no authority to be hurling at the innocent.
For any of the innocent in connection with Nasser who may read his post, I am genuinely sorrow that he is allowed to ever again speak as with authority.
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The eternal question…I think I am trending towards villain at this point – at least for the ones in charge. As far as impact, it doesn’t matter which because foolishness can still cause immense pain. Perhaps it’s time to stop giving the merely foolish a pass.
IS THAT WHAT HE THINKS THEY ARE DOING???? ‘hiding’ sin???
So many girls told and weren’t believed, because of idiots like Swanson who don’t believe women. He has a lot of d*** nerve to say this, and then say churches will investigate and not believe unless there are a billion witnesses to private abuse.
If you truly wanted women to ‘cry out’ (which is a problem in and of itself but ya’ll know that) he would encourage them when they do. He would believe them. And you know he doesn’t.
Villain. Definitely.
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“Pardon my ignorance but WHO IS KEVIN SWANSON?”
I really want to write him off as fringe, but he’s managed to appear with some movers and shakers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2015/11/13/gop-candidates-have-gotten-a-pass-on-appearing-with-a-very-anti-gay-pastor-but-why/?utm_term=.1b535b3d6557
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Womb Tomb Swanson strikes again.
The high school dork turned Alpha Male, Commander of Gilead by Divine Right, once more throws his Righteous weight around.
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@Bunkababy:
GAWD’s Anointed, of course.
“Whoso speaks in your presence must say acceptable things:
Bowing the head in worship, bending the knee in fear-
Bringing the word well smoothen-such as a King should hear.”
— Rudyard Kipling, “The Islanders”
GAWD Himself, by Divine Right.
“He shall rule above the law,
Calling on the LORD…”
— Rudyard Kipling, “The Old Issue”
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@Insanitybytes22:
Because HOMOSEXUALITY is the Other Guy’s Sin.
While child sexual abuse has become a Privilege of Rank for Pastors.
(Plus HOMOSEXUALITY implies a Bigger, Stronger, More Manly Man than Thou could do to you what you do to a woman by Might Makes Right.)
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Because Larry Nassar is MALE. (And “He scooooored!”)
Q.E.D.
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Me too, Lea. It’s hard for me to believe that he spouts all this errant nonsense purely out of ignorance. Swanson likely is ignorant about lots of things, but more than that, he simply doesn’t care whom he hurts with his blathering. He wants money and attention and the feeling of power over others.
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It does sometimes seem to be that simple. Except child abuse towards boys is also excused sometimes, so there is another factor.
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The NAPARC system is pretty good at churning out patriarchal misogynistic and abusive pastors. First, you start with adherence to the Westminster Confession that is supposed to be a correct summary of scripture, yet ignores abuse of authority, then you go to a seminary like Westminster East or Westminster West where you are taught to be God’s Anointed ™, then you get put through the gauntlet of pastoral exams where the only thing that matters is skillful preaching and adherence to Westminster (where it is silent about abuse, if you forgot).
So, either you have impressionable young minds that get pushed by senior pastors and theologians into patriarchy, or you have people who are patriarchal to begin with having that honed to perfection. I’m guessing Swanson is the latter. In fact, Google shows that he was so patriarchal that he got slapped by his presbytery. I doubt any egalitarian is going to pass the NAPARC gauntlet.
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@Lea:
Because same-sex pedos self-identify as straight, and arousal measurements (don’t ask how) bear this out. Their arousal triggers key on a pre-pubescent boy’s lack of masculine sexual characteristics — the soft smooth skin, the lack of facial hair, the high-pitched voice. Even the pre-pubescent male genitalia are smaller and hairless, unlike the post-pubescent Manly Male. So to them, pre-pubescent boys are not REALLY male, so it isn’t homosexual — a loophole worthy of Screwtape and Wormwood, a close relative of “I did not know her in a Biblical sense”.
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@Mark:
“RULERS OF TOMORROW! MASTER RACE!”
— Ralph Bakshi, Wizards (note this is said by THE BAD GUY)
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Swanson is inline with what Gothard taught about rape/abuse.(while he was rubbing his feet and body parts over IBLP interns) That was the first place I heard this teaching some years ago. It was such a strange idea I thought it was a joke at first. Then I thought about all the children/women who literally are frightened beyond words? What if there is no one to hear you? What if……? Sick, sick, sick.
Also, was it mentioned that the doctor also was convicted for child porn found on his computer? Whose fault was that?
These people scare me.
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Saw this quote elsewhere. Same interview?
Are there any non-winter sports where people are fully covered at every moment? I suppose he doesn’t realize that clothing is made to allow ones body to move through a particular sport, and most warm weather sporting outfits are going to expose some skin.
It’s not the sport that is risky, it’s simply being a girl, wearing any outfit at all, that is risky. Because it has nothing to do with clothing.
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also, just a general concept, but we live in a world where men are actively seeking out pornography, with women wearing nothing or next to nothing. And yet, we are supposed to believe women in real life wearing head to toe bags is going to solve their lust?? No.
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There is a 100% chance that this guy is a predator. They try to act like they’re on the spectrum of normal, but they’re not. Everyone acts like they’re invisible, but, again, they’re not. You can spot them by the way they think and what’s important to them. Normal people can give at least a decent nod to victims before trying to make the devil’s arguments, but a predator is constitutionally incapable of such a thing. The victims have no existence in their minds except in relationship to the predator. And predators always look out for each other’s interests because they are shared interests.
People like this want to make sure that they themselves have carved out enough room to operate in without being held to account. It’s one of the ways that predators keep their own victims hostage – they define the reality surrounding abuse in such a way that their victims believe that they will never be able to get help or get anyone to believe them if they reach out for help. Every time their victims thinks about speaking out or getting help, their perpetrator and his enabler’s voices will come screaming into her head telling her why no one will believe her or it wasn’t really abuse, etc. It’s one of the sick games they play.
This guy is a predator. He’s demonstrated it right out in the open for years; a predator’s thinking and circle of concern is distinctly abnormal. They distinguish themselves from the merely deluded enabler by showing an unwillingness/inability to show even the most modest amounts of concern for victims of abuse. These people depend on the benefit of the doubt to operate and I think we need to stop extending it to them.
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The whole ‘crying out’ rule was an recurring theme of Gothard’s material, with anecdotes of young women who cried out and were saved just in time. Oh, and in answer to Mark’s first question, according to IBLP’s Character Sketch of Tamar, she not only should have cried out, but she should have been on the alert when Ammon commanded his servants to leave the room – or she could just have been quicker to suspect foul play on the part of Ammon and appealed to her father to not have to go and take care of her sick half brother. There were a whole list of the things she should have done to prevent the rape. As a young teen, I found both Dinah and Tamar’s Character Sketch somewhat frightening, wondering if I would remember to do all the right things should such a situation arise. I was well primed to blame myself should anything have happened. Thankfully, I was coldly treated by Gothard the one time I met him, although the pretty blond girl that was in the meet up line just in front of me was promptly invited by Gothard to Headquarters, after he complimented her ‘bright eyes’ <>Gag<> (that was a small bit of confirming evidence when I read the accusations against Gothard years later).
It was studying Galatians which finally helped me to walk away from ATI’s teaching, as I realized that using the law of Moses as a set rules for Christians to live by is not merely unnecessary for salvation, it actually endangers the Christian’s ability to live by the grace of God in Jesus Christ (Galatians 5:1-4). That includes the law about crying out – which like other parts of the case law in Deuteronomy, appears to have been a rule of thumb to help in judging cases rather than an infallible method of preventing rape. There is another case law in Deuteronomy, the one about giving a writ of divorce, which, as Jesus later said, had been given not to condone divorce for any reason (the Mosaic clause was abused in Jesus’ day, with women being divorced – the man did the divorcing – for reasons like burning dinner), but to prevent confusion about divorce and remarriage (Matthew 19:3-9). As such, the writ of divorce clause that Moses gave, according to Jesus, was not God’s original intent when he created marriage. Not every law given to Moses bears the same weight as the Ten Commandments, and even those were given as an instructor so that people would realize their need of a Saviour (Galatians 3:24-25). These days, reading about what such glib ‘pastors’ and ‘leaders’ have to say about how to prevent sexual assault inspire the thought that what the Church really needs is revival – of Jesus’ methods of dealing with swindlers and hypocrites in the house of God.
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It’s impossible standards for victims, despite being younger (including children), physically weaker, authority wise…with absolute passes for predators.
Men (and women) who think like this, and preach like this, cannot be trusted. They’ve told us so themselves. It’s time we start listening.
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It’s such a shame that these things are being used to blame victims for not protecting themselves. I fully believe that women and children should be taught what to look for, and risk mitigation. I know when I went clubbing or what have you with friends we watched out for each other. But if something had happened, it would have been none of our FAULT. Apparently that’s a hard thing to keep straight.
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I bet Gothard and Swanson are just setting up the culture to protect themselves and their cronies should one of them get into hot water. Swanson probably isn’t that far (geographically or theologically) from the church where the pastor was sexually assaulting the girls and the elders and even their parents knew about and were still afraid to turn the pastor into the police.
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roscuro, “As such, the writ of divorce clause that Moses gave, according to Jesus, was not God’s original intent when he created marriage.”
Completely agree. I think Jesus was countering the teaching of the Pharisees that was akin to ‘no fault divorce’ on the husband’s behalf – he just had to give her a letter and send her away. I DON’T think that Jesus was setting up the new Pharisaical rule where women are trapped in marriage because they will ‘commit adultery’ if they divorce.
I like to play this mind game. Most Fundagelical types use Jesus’s teaching on divorce to trap women in abusive marriages. They teach that Jesus’s statement was ABSOLUTE. But… if Jesus’s teaching is absolute, it contradicts Paul’s teaching that a women divorced by an unbelieving husband is free to remarry. So, which is it? Is Jesus’s teaching absolute, and Paul is teaching in direct contradiction to Jesus, or is Jesus’s teaching answering a specific question and Paul’s teaching answering a different one? If Jesus’s teaching is not absolute, then there are no other passages that can be used in the same absolute sense.
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Maybe the pastor who complained against Swanson’s church being in the NCFIC will press charges for his published position on Nassar. Seems like the presbytery can’t be entirely bad if they forced him to pull his church out. http://thatmom.com/2014/06/10/presbytery-of-the-dakotas-rules-kevin-swansons-church-must-remove-name-from-ncfic-confession/
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Lea: “It’s such a shame that these things are being used to blame victims for not protecting themselves. I fully believe that women and children should be taught what to look for, and risk mitigation.”
His emphatic call for women to “cry out” when being sexually abused is pathetic. One victim of Nassar’s was 6 years-old when the abuse started. He’s blaming a 6 year-old child for the abuse that happened to her?
The police department where I volunteer offers a self-defense class to victims. The officer who leads it is fantastic. He will tell everyone that knowing good basic self-defense is good, but it’s not a guarantee that someone will never encounter abuse or respond appropriately. He then talks about a victim who was a black belt in karate when she was sexually assaulted. She talked about how she froze when she was assaulted as though all of those years of training never happened.
You really don’t know how you will actually respond when something happens to you. If you have years of self-defense training, it might kick in. Or, your brain might now even remember how to respond. So, training a young woman to cry out when abuse is happening is unrealistic.
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The biggest problem is, the victims of Larry Nassar wore young female bodies. They ought to repent for that! (sarcasm).
Is this guy a Imam or a Christian pastor?
Here is a question I have for Swanson. Is he willing to join in Muslim athletes’ fight to for modest dress code? Here is an example of a female Muslim weight lifter’s quest to wear not just a hajib, but also long sleeves and pants to cover more of her skin. Of course not.
Swanson is, much like people of his ilk, a virulent Islamophobe.
That is exactly what Sharia Law is! It is about allowing religious institutions handle civil and criminal matters on its own without interference from outside authorities. And oh yeah, in the Muslim world, a rape victim must present two or more witnesses in order to build a case against the perp.
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I cannot get over this. If you don’t mind, can you get the exact quote?
I just thought some lustful thoughts. There were no witnesses. I guess I didn’t sin.
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That is terrifying.
I feel like a I picked up a ‘city’ awareness when living in DC that helps me, but that only works with strangers – it does nothing when you let someone into your life and they betray you. Or they’re your doctor. Or obviously when you are a child.
Nothing is full proof. There is no way to make your risk level ‘zero’. And what you wear is not a factor.
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I think what Swanson is saying is that no matter what we think in society the bar is to believe victims and take a stand against rape, he’s going to set the bar just high enough so that he never has to do it.
So, instead of standing next to the orphans and widows, the weak and powerless in society, he’s going to stand next to the rapists and the politicians. This is just his rationalization processes why he can completely blame and ignore victims of rape and the next day put on a suit and tie and tell his flock how to be more like the Jesus who associated with the outcasts of society. I just hope his congregants put themselves in one of the victims’ shoes and realize what being a member of Swanson’s church would mean for them.
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Considering he’s an unabashed misogynist, I doubt it matters much either way, Dave.
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Crying out? Witnesses? Ooohhhh, I just want to wrap some barbed wire around a rolling pin and have some alone time with this guy!
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Bwah!
When women do ‘cry out’ they are not believed. Stuff it, Swanson.
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Regarding the “modesty” angle,the last I knew, doctors see their patients in a state of undress quite routinely, and hence if a doctor cannot handle that sight without being tempted to sin and sexual crimes, maybe….another career might be more appropriate?
Never mind the fact that if a gymnastics leotard sets a guy off, I don’t see how he can go grocery shopping without doing something to get himself arrested. The covers of Cosmo and related magazines are way more risque than gymnastics!
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Maybe the pastor who complained against Swanson’s church being in the NCFIC will press charges for his published position on Nassar. Seems like the presbytery can’t be entirely bad if they forced him to pull his church out. http://thatmom.com/2014/06/10/presbytery-of-the-dakotas-rules-kevin-swansons-church-must-remove-name-from-ncfic-confession/
I’d like to think so, but if it’s just something he said on a podcast, they may not. If anything goes on the church website, for example, that would be different. It would be great if the OPC did something similar to the LCMS regarding the issues of sexual abuse and domestic violence. At the very least statements like his could be called out much easier.
Give this guy enough rope, and maybe he’ll hang himself.
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David C says, “That is exactly what Sharia Law is! It is about allowing religious institutions handle civil and criminal matters on its own without interference from outside authorities. And oh yeah, in the Muslim world, a rape victim must present two or more witnesses in order to build a case against the perp.”
You are spot on David. The world of Islam abhors western dress concerning women, and if it were to be the law of this land, I wonder then, how the pastor(?) Swansons of this world would react? Perhaps you are right, these so called Christian(?) pastors may have similar beliefs systems to that of Islam.
Also, I confess that I was a gymnast in high school, enjoying every minute of the sport. I loved it and still watch it whenever possible; especially during the Olympics. In high school, the thought of being a slut, a whore, enticing boys and men to lust after me, or asking to be sexually molested, because of wearing a leotard during practice time and competition was preposterous. We never considered ourselves as sex symbols by wearing leotards. In fact, many of us had the privilege of taking dance, tap, and ballet lessons beginning at the age of six, wearing “leotards” for class as they were required “dress wear” for the classes as prescribed by the professional instructor. And our dance recitals consisted of wearing those same black leotards accompanied by colorful tutus provided by the instructor…..very inexpensive when compared to the immaculate costuming the little dancers are required to purchase in most dance studios now days. And those little girls wearing leotards are not sluts in the making, nor are they asking to be sexually molested.
The insanity of those who profess to be pastors such as Swanson, with regards to the female population and following Jesus, is absolutely hateful as far I’m concerned. To them, all of sin is because of the woman…..it’s the woman’s fault for everything, which is a belief from the pit of hell.
So Kevin Swanson, what about those minimal swim trunks those male swimmers wear for competition? My leotard had more fabric and seams!
Dear Jesus, I am so thankful Kevin Swanson (whoever he is!), is not my pastor. Amen.
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If there’s anything we learned from this case, it’s that ‘crying out’ doesn’t work in our culture. The OT case law was for a different time and different culture. Many of these girls DID cry out and the result was silence and blame. The police failed them, the coaches failed them, the district attorneys failed them, the Michigan State University system failed them.
Then Swanson comes along and has the gall as ‘minister of Jesus(TM)’ to lay on another layer or two of blame and re-victimization. Not only showing his own ignorance of the case, but I’m sure he cares nothing about the victims except to promote his own agenda of making himself look better and keep his congregation from speaking out against abuse.
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Oh, but women aren’t ‘visual’ 😉 #suchaliethat
(And actually swimmers are wearing a lot more than they used to lately if they’re still doing those long suit things. You were a gymnast, I was a swimmer for a few years! We probably wore more for competition swimming than people wore routinely at the pool, because it was important that things be functional. Swanson and his ilk miss the point that these outfits are made to be FUNCTIONAL).
BTW, Russell Moore has an article out about teaching boys to respect women. He includes some stuff about all these ‘differences’ between men and women because he’s in that camp… https://www.russellmoore.com/2018/02/12/teach-boys-respect-women/
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I did have treatment for pelvic pain that was similar to what Nassar did to the girls he abused. (I have a bladder problem called interstitial cystitis and the treatment I got was for myofascial pain release.) However, when I had it, it was with a female health care practitioner and I was the person who initiated the treatment. I was also in either my 30’s or 40’s and the person explained to me what she was doing and why she was doing it. And she used gloves. The treatment I had was not on the same level as what Nassar did to his victims.
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Good for you Lea….a swimmer! Gotta love that spandex creation to adhere to the body! I cannot imagine exiting the balance beam with a flip or two and having layers of fabric wrapped around the beam choking me on my way down….or swimming in full sheath-wear for the most amazing time ever….not!
Rachael Denhollander represents courage, bravery and boldness, and the kind of person that knows and loves Jesus as her own, and for that, I deeply, deeply respect her. She did what many of the titled (she’s not a hireling pastor like Swanson) and entitled preacher men should be doing, sharing Gospel, in spirit and truth, to a lost soul in a court room, focusing on the primacy of the Scriptures.
Individuals, especially those who claim the title of “pastor,” lose my respect when their ideologies and worldview are contrary to the Scriptures, in blaming victims for the crimes that have taken place against them. This wicked thought pattern is more prevalent within the conservative, fungicide-al church more than most people realize, which is one of the primary reasons I no longer call myself a conservative evangelical any longer.
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Right? And my ‘red blooded American coach’ seemed to manage to keep his hands to himself too. Shocking.
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Yeah Lea, and I’d be willing to guess that he desired you to excel in your sport…..encouraging you to be the best athlete possible.
In my neck of the woods, there have been several male coaches terminated, FIRED, from their coaching positions for making reference to female body parts, in addition to “coming on” to a few of the “more attractive” female athletes they coached. And, as a matter of fact, one still “preaches” in churches during funerals and when the pastor man is away, while another is a “elder” in a charismatic church, leading the pew sitters in prayer on various Sundays…..I’ve heard both of them and I want to vomit when I see them approaching teenage girls in church, flirtatious in their “conversation,” or should I say grooming. And another male coach just bit the dust as the school board terminated his position when a teenage athlete reported him….finally.
So sexual misconduct, abuse, crime, is quite common within our American Christian culture…..all the while carrying their bibles.
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A couple of corrections here:
Nassar was accused by at least some of his victims of outright penetration. It wasn’t just fondling over the leotard. He also groped the breasts of victims, a move I would guess would be unlikely to help with problems in the pelvis, to put it mildly. So I would guess that whatever similarities people have experienced are to a small portion of what Nassar did, not his general approach. I’ve had prostate exams, which were no fun, but I don’t dare compare that to what Nassar’s victims experienced.
In many Muslim nations, reporting rape, even with more than one witness (good luck with that), does not get a conviction of the rapist, but rather often gets the victim gang raped and/or killed. Look up “honor killing.”
Not that Swanson ought to get off easy regarding his ill-informed statements, but thankfully he’s not in the league of Sharia yet.
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I am a first time poster, but a long time reader. But this article has the hackles of this momma bear on edge!
Let me tell you a story about Kevin Swanson. Our family were members of his “church” I put it is quotes because it is not a church, but a cult. (Please don’t judge us. Rejoice that we saw the light, escaped, and got professional help to recover😀).
This story takes place in 2005. We had two young daughters at the time (ages 10 and 8). Our daughters were in a public place in the town in which we lived. They went together to a public restroom (as we never wanted them to go alone). While there, a child predator was in the women’s restroom looking for victims. He exposed himself and tried to climb under the restroom divider and get my girls. They ran out of the restroom and found me. I went to the restroom and saw he was still in the stall. I went to store management and reported it. They called the police. I filed a report. Little did I know I was not the only one that day to file a report on this person. It was absolutely traumatizing to my girls. The next day the police called as well as the DAs office. They had a strong case to prosecute this person. In Colorado at that time, they had the three strikes your out law. If prosecuted, he would have to file as a child predator. The DA explained that in order to prosecute, my daughter would have to testify in court because she could positively ID him and she was a minor. Without her testimony they did not have a strong enough case. As you can imagine, we wanted him prosecuted, but we also were concerned about the trauma this would bring upon my daughter to see him again and have to testify before a jury in court. My husband asked for some time to think about it and talk it over with our family.
Naturally, he thought talking to our pastor would be good. That man was Kevin Swanson. My husband called him on the phone since Kevin was always too busy to meet with people in the congregation. Anyway, what Kevin said to my husband was incomprehensible. My husband explained the whole situation to him and that we felt strongly we wanted to pursue criminal charges. Kevin’s answer in a nutshell to my husband was, “He never touched her, so therefore you have no biblical grounds to prosecute or file criminal charges. I recommend you let this die.” My husband was absolutely livid! My husband then continued to explain that part of our whole reason for this was to protect others in the future. That by prosecuting this, this man will have a mark on his record, have to register as an offender and that others can be warned. We were told that we had no grounds to pursue this and that if we did we were not to talk to anyone at church about it. WE WERE SILENCED!
We went forward with our case. The perp was found guilty, served time, and is a registered sex offender. My husband sat through the whole trial. Like the father in the Nassar trial who tried to attack Nassar, that is what my husband wanted to do when he heard all the evidence. He said he had to grip the chair to keep himself from losing it. The perp had EVERY intention to do evil that day to my girls. There was definite intent proved. What kept him from his evil was that my girls knew what to do and did it. They ran and reported! We had absolutely NO SUPPORT from our church or elders. No one to uphold us in prayer and support a family and little girl who was having to face something extremely traumatizing and brave at the same time. The support we received from law enforcement and the DA’s office was absolutely amazing. They walked us through everything and helped a little girl do something no one should ever have to do.
So when I read this article and listen to Swanson’s words, I am angry! This has stirred up things long buried. His words are bologna! My girls ran, reported and cried for help and he told them and us to shut up! She was also labeled after the dust settled.
The ultimate slap in the face was after it was all over and the man was found guilty, Kevin had the gall to ask my husband to speak at the next men’s meeting about how to protect your girls from predators. My husband looked at him incredulously and said “ABSOLUTELY NOT!” You have done nothing to help us through this. It took years for us to work through the trauma of this and multiple other things from Swanson’s group. They silenced us. It feels good to finally speak.
Each of us have read/watched Rachael Denhollander’s words to Nassar and the Christianity Today interview. It was triggering on so many levels for us. We wept, got angry and understood exactly what she was saying. She and the other victims are brave. They are heroes.
Kevin Swanson’s “church” is a cult! Run! It is NOT a safe place for victims of any kind of abuse.
Thank you for reading this. Thank you for being a safe place to vent. As we have healed, it is therapeutic for us to speak and name abuse for what it is.
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I grew up in this church and I remember these types of conversations. . It sickens me to the core.
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I am livid for you, your girls, everyone who had the misfortune to be hurt by this man. And yet, this terrible, calloused attitude is present in far too many corners. It must be exposed. It must be countered.
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survivorinco – Thank you for sharing here. I am so sorry that you had to deal with Kevin Swanson. I have hoped to hear from someone who who has dealt with him who might validate what I’ve always thought about. Your inexcusable experience confirms a lot. Again, I’m so sorry you had to deal with him. And, no judgment here! I’m happy that you did the right thing even though I’m sure it was very difficult to sit through a trial. I hope that your daughters have been able to heal from their traumatic experience.
The last time I wrote about KSwan and his attitude toward abuse survivors was in 2014 about a radio show devoted to recovering from sexual abuse. I’ll say he hasn’t changed one bit over the years. He heaped guilt and shame on victims then as he does now. He also called sex abuse a cold, hard reality of sin. Then he talked about a time he walked with his daughters and found a dead rabbit and explained to them the cold, hard reality of sin in the world. Comparing child sex abuse to dead rabbits. Creepy and disgusting.
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Kayla – My goodness. I can only imagine how the conversations went.
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Thanks so much, survivorinco!!! Your family and especially your daughters were so brave for coming forward to seek justice. I don’t blame you for being in a church like that. I grew up in a similar type of church and it is really hard to leave, even when you feel you’re being mistreated. I had to get professional help and had church friends distance themselves from me and my family when I left.
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I’m not so sure about that, Bubba. The similarities are far too numerous for me to ignore.
Does anyone recall this claim by a Muslim preacher back in 2010, which set off a rather… unique protest/experiment in the U.S.?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/promiscuous-women-cause-earthquakes-claims-iranian-cleric-10229912.html
Completely unscientific garbage, right? Then, a few years later, along comes Swanson pushing other junk science, and with exactly the same goal in mind: Keeping women docile and under control.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/02/04/kevin-swanson-spews-nonsense-from-his-mouth-to-further-his-agenda/
And now we have the testimony of Survivorinco, relating how “Womb Tomb” Swanson instructed her family to ignore the laws of the land, and make “biblical law” the standard for prosecution.
Still think he hasn’t gone full Sharia?
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Round of applause for survivorinco.
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I’m sure this is a selective thing…he probably isn’t instructing people to regularly skip paying speeding tickets because they’re not ‘biblical’. I’m sure he’s a hypocrite of the finest order.
Disgusting man.
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Thank you, Survivorinco, first of all, for believing and protecting your daughters. (I include your husband in this thanks) Also, for shining light of truth on Swanson. It helps so much to hear personal accounting. It helps also, to be able to see others like him in a clearer light.
I am deeply saddened for what your family has experienced through your daughters dangerous experience. Also, the long term struggle in church life. May there be continued healing for you through speaking out here.
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@survivorinco
It took courage to post the truth here and I too, applaud you along with David C, Kathi, and others. Your daughters are brave and courageous as well and I can only praise our LORD that at the time of that wicked crime, they were able to think straight and make their way to safety….to you, immediately. Your whole family did the right thing in spite of not walking in the counsel of the wicked. Psalm 1:1 Thank-you for protecting your children and the children of others.
Also, I have to agree with Serving Kids in Japan here. Would Kevin Swanson grieve if Sharia was to become the law of this land? Would it strengthen his belief system concerning women in any form of leadership, independence, success, and the big one, faith alone in Jesus Christ WITHOUT the lordship, covering, and shepherding of a man?
Can anyone please tell me what the “biblical law” is when it pertaining to sexual crimes? I may have missed something when studying my Bible.
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Katy, Swanson is just plain wrong about Biblical Law. In fact, he’s the sort of person Jesus was preaching the Sermon on the Mount against. The OT law tells us what sin is. The definition of sin has not changed throughout scripture, so if Swanson is claiming that this man was not violating the OT law, he is claiming that the man is not sinning.
Now, if he is teaching that the OT “judicial” law is somehow permanently binding and that, because there was no specific penalty for what this man did, then Swanson should be brought up on charges in the OPC, because the Westminster Confession of Faith specifically says, (14.4) “To them also, as a body politic, He gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people; not obliging under any now, further than the general equity thereof may require.”
So, if Swanson is claiming that it is Biblically unlawful for them to press charges based on OT judicial law, he is in direct contradiction of what his church teaches.
What Jesus said was: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.”
Saying that it is somehow unbiblical for a society to punish actions that are clearly public and sinful is beyond legalism. Also, take note that if Swanson says that it is unbiblical for the state to punish the man, he also is saying that it is unbiblical for the church to punish that man. That means that his church is a safe haven for child molesters.
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Mark, I completely agree that what Jesus said about marriage was not intended to become another heavy burden for those who suffer in abusive marriages.
I would like to point out that Sharia law is simply another kind of case law and it is not used in every country where Islam predominates. I am not defending Sharia or saying it should be implemented, I am only saying that the sensational stories that are reported about it in the Western media are made by people who are not experts either in Islamic law or culture, and those reports are often propaganda intended to create fear of certain immigrant groups. In addition, honour killings have no relationship to Sharia, as honour killings are extrajudicial and the honour culture is not solely a property of Muslim cultures – Hindu culture is very much bound up in ideas of keeping the family honour, for instance – and the honour system predates the creation of Isalm. Honour culture is very much the default system, when other systems of law enforcement do not exist or are weak. If Westerners are honest about their own history, they would see that honour culture existed in Europe and North America – the fighting of duels, for instance, to regain honour, was acceptable in the U.S. well into the 1800s.
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Thank-you Mark for the explanation. Well stated and understood.
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Survivorinco,
WOW! Thank you for sharing. That puts this in a whole new light.
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Katy,
If you don’t mind me adding a few thoughts to Mark’s excellent response:
The only “biblical law” that matters here is what Jesus recommended—millstone therapy for these kinds of people.
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@BikeBubba:
That’s just because he doesn’t have the POWER of legal authority behind him.
That’s what “Taking Back America and Restoring a CHRISTIAN Nation” is for.
Can you imagine Womb Tomb as Supreme Legal Commander of the Republic of Gilead? I’m sure he can.
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Bike Bubba, who were you correcting? There was no quote attached…
Swanson thinks you need multiple witnesses to report these things. He may not admit it, but he probably thinks they need to be male.
I’m certainly glad he has no more power than he does, because he is not a safe person.
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@Headless Unicorn Guy
Exactly. And when people of Swanson’s ilk advocate “religious liberty,” they are only talking about religious liberty for Christianity. Strike that. They are only talking about conservative Christianity.
The “obey God rather than man” rhetoric intensifies when a Democrat is in the White House, but when conservative Republicans are in charge, it’s all about Romans 13, baby! Submit to governing authorities!
Churches run by people like Kevin Swanson are hell on earth. The nice thing is, you can leave their churches. But they also want to legislate their beliefs and run the country. No thanks.
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This guy….smdh
Dealing with Obstacles and Harlots
https://www.generations.org/devotionals/429
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Swanson was a disciple of Greg Bahnsen, a theonomist and Reconstructionist. In fact, Swanson’s seminary “degree” is from Bahnsen’s now defunct school (I believe is was by correspondence). So OT law was/is quoted much from the pulpit.
The view of women was very low. I remember a discussion among the elders of whether women could pray publicly in a small group setting with men present. They did finally say it would be ok. 😥. I also remember one elder having a lesson at small group (They called it family fellowship) stating it was a wrong for a woman to work outside the home and for another man.
Then the elders on numerous occasions would cite the 9th commandment and the WCF about talking ill of your “superiors” (elders) and bearing false witness.
Question 144: What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?
Answer: The duties required in the ninth commandment are,
the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man, and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own;
appearing and standing for the truth;
and from the heart, sincerely, freely, clearly, and fully, speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice, and in all other things whatsoever;
a charitable esteem of our neighbors;
loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name;
sorrowing for, and covering of their infirmities;
freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces, defending their innocency;
a ready receiving of a good report, and unwillingness to admit of an evil report, concerning them;
discouraging tale-bearers, flatterers, and slanderers;
love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requireth;
keeping of lawful promises;
studying and practicing of whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.
Basically they silenced members with fear of church discipline. I remember a whole lesson on this at family fellowship. 😡
Swanson and his church also voted to leave the OPC last year. They were released from the presbytery last year.
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@HUG: “That’s what “Taking Back America and Restoring a CHRISTIAN Nation” is for.”
I ran into another person in a WCF denomination that had the same sorts of odd hangups as Swanson, specifically that the OT judicial/case law was still binding. I believe this is the Rushdoony/Christian Reconstruction position – that our duty as Christians is to reinstate a Theocracy, and that the law of the theocracy is restoring the OT law.
Honestly, I believe that puts them at odds with their denominations because the WCF explicitly states that the OT law is non-binding. The “general equity” clause is referring to things like when Paul claims “you shall not muzzle an ox while she is threshing” means that pastors have a right to receive money from those they labor among.
The pastor I had issues with was claiming that the OT laws of betrothal/marriage were still in force and ought to be enforced by our government.
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David C. “Churches run by people like Kevin Swanson are hell on earth.”
It’s a mixed bag. Many people seem to be naturally compliant and don’t really wrestle with what is taught, and they tend to do fine in those churches. They take hermeneutic A on issue A and hermeneutic B on issue B and they either ignore or don’t even consider that hermeneutic A conflicts with hermeneutic B.
I got a lot of pastors furious with me because they tried to use this sort of logic, and then I said, apply your hermeneutic A to issue B and you end up where you don’t want to be, so why should I believe hermeneutic A is a valid hermeneutic. At that point, they blow up because that argument is all they’ve been taught or understand and now they can’t explain WHY they believe that argument, especially when it puts them in conflict with some other, more clear, typically, example.
Swanson strikes me as that sort of person. He says “cry out” in Nassar’s case as the reason for victim blaming, but in this other case, he tells a family that it was sinful for them to “cry out” (by silencing them for doing that very thing!). So, his hermeneutical approach to “cry out” puts him on the wrong side of one of the two issues. His “no Biblically punishable behavior” is a red herring meant to distract from his single-minded focus on victim blaming.
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@DavidC:
And when Trump Tower DC replaced the White House, line up to Take The Mark on both forehead and right hand, singing “He is LORD!”
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The Evangelical world has been descending into a crazier and more unreasonable mindset that increasingly puts women and children at risk. They have become a reactionary, loud voice, motivated by fear, because the world is changing and they no longer control the narrative.
On another note, I read a very disturbing post on No Longer Quivering at Patheos today. Lori Alexander allowed Trey to go on a rant, in which he says that women are owned by their husbands and should obey their husbands as their masters. I question, as some other folks do, whether or not Trey is actually a real person or the alter ego of Ken or Lori. Whatever the case, any woman who follows Lori Alexander’s advice and is in an abusive relationship, is sure to be at risk.
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I’ve only skimmed a bit of the blog post, but this caught my eye (quoting Swanson):
So, Christian partriarchalists or complementarians such as this one train women, from the time we are girls, to be codependent.
Complementarianians and Christian patriarchalists train girls and women to think it’s “godly,” “feminine,” and “God’s design” for us women to lack boundaries, to be passive, and to acquiesce, but, if and when we girls and women do remain quiet and passive, as they have been brain-washed to do, he turns around and blames us for it.
Thanks for putting us in a double bind, a no-win situation, Swanson!
Secondly, regarding the phrase “young women.”
Women of all ages are preyed upon by sexual perverts, abusers, and harassers, not just young ones.
However, I suppose an argument can be made that younger women (being more naive, usually than older women who have life experience), are easier prey.
TIME magazine (or was it CNN?) recently did a long, scary, and depression article about sexual abuse in nursing homes.
That’s right, perverted male care-workers, ages 20 and up, who work at nursing homes, are raping and fondling senior (we’re talking ages 60 and older) women, even elderly women who have dementia, or who are in comas in nursing homes.
Also, consider stories such as this one:
Las Vegas court filing: Wynn wanted sex with waitress ‘to see how it feels’ to be with a grandmother
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Here’s the article about male care workers raping or groping elderly women in nursing homes (some of the women have dementia):
Sick, Dying, and Raped in America’s Nursing Homes
Is Swanson also going to blame these elderly patients with dementia that they are at fault for “not crying out” when they are molested or raped by care-givers?
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One expert on perverts (she’s interviewed hundreds) says that perverts LOVE churches, and it’s precisely because of stuff like this:
Many churches and Christians are too naive and ignorant, or far too forgiving, about issues such as sexual abuse, so, many child molesters have said in interviews they intentionally seek out churches as “hunting grounds” from which to obtain new victims.
Those kind of perverts would no doubt want to look up online where Swanson goes to church, so they can join his church too, precisely so they can start targeting the kids at Swanson’s church.
See also:
_Six Reasons Why Sexual Predators Target Churches
_, via Aquila Report site
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Re: my last post.
I must note with irony that the post I linked to was written by Tim Challies (which I didn’t notice ’til after I linked to it) and Challies is ignorant and naive about the role the Male Headship of Gender Complementarianism plays in Domestic violence, of husbands abusing wives.
Similar dynamics are at play in how churches and Christians are naive at child molesting, as they are with domestic violence.
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(part 1)
Re:
Julie Anne, I tweeted you about this a few weeks ago.
Something similar happened to me when I was about 15 years old. I’ll share my story, maybe it can shed light on why some of the parents didn’t react when Nasser was molesting their children.
My mother took me to the doctor at that age, when I was about 15 or 16. She sat in the examination room with me the entire time.
I can’t recall exactly what I was there to see the doctor for, but it was something having to do with my body from the neck up – I was always getting ear infections, my mother was always paranoid about me getting strep throat.
So, I was probably there to get my throat checked.
Though I cannot recall the specifics of my medical visit, I know that I know that it had NOTHING to do with my genitals or breasts.
I found it weird when the doctor (who I was seeing for a sore throat, or whatever above- the- neck malady I had) had me lay back on the table, he had me un-zip my jeans, and he pulled my shirt up, but my shirt went up to expose my belly area. (My bra stayed on the entire time, so he did not see or touch my breasts.)
This doctor began running his hand over my torso, and down to my genitals.
I remember thinking this was all quite strange, because I was just there for a throat problem – nothing that would require him to examine my torso, or to run his hands so close to my private area.
I felt it was weird, and I was suspicious, because there was no need for a doctor to look at my genitals, or torso, for a sore throat
I had seen other doctors in the past for colds, flus, ear infections, sore throats, strep throats, etc, and the most any other doctor had ever done was listen to my heart with stethoscopes, ask me to cough, and maybe swabbed my throat with a long swab.
But this was the first and only doctor I ever had who had me lay back, un-zip my pants, and lift up my shirt.
(My intuition was telling me something was wrong with all this, but I went ahead and lifted up my shirt, etc.)
My mother was sitting there the whole time, this was in plain view.
She was seated in the corner, just a few feet from me and the doctor.
The doctor began his examination of me. The doctor’s hands went way down, to where he just about touched where my genital area was starting, shall we say – I shot him a dirty look at that point.
Had his hand moved so much as one mili-meter south, into my groin region, I was going to punch him in the face, take his pen out of his pocket and jam it into his eye.
My mother raised me to be a doormat, that is true, but I never, ever accepted her premise when it concerned sexual molesting or physical touch.
When I was a kid, I knew that I knew that I knew that NO ONE had the right to touch my “sexual” areas without my consent, and if they’d try, I was more than ready and willing to beat their face in, regardless of my mother’s horrid “be a sweet little doormat” teachings.
The jerk, the doctor, gave me a smug grin right when he made eye contact with me, and he saw I was infuriated with him for moving his hand so far down south on my body.
In other words, this doctor knew damn well what he was doing to me, he was intentionally trying to make my feel uncomfortable, and he was “getting off” and enjoying my anger, discomfort, and embarrassment. This guy knew what he was doing.
Amazingly, my mother sat quietly by and said and did nothing during all this.
I looked over at her, and my mother seemed “zoned out” during this situation.
(continued in part 2)
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Part 2.
When my mother and I were done in the doctor’s office and got out to the car and were driving home, I asked her why she didn’t say or do anything. I told her what the doctor had been doing, but she had been sitting right by me during the whole ordeal. I said, “Didn’t you notice what he was doing?”
My mom just remained quiet and stared straight ahead. It’s not been until the last few years that I started to make sense of why my mother may have reacted like this any time I was bullied or whatever.
I can’t explain why any and all parents who sat in on these medical (actually molestation) sessions with Nassar did not react, but if any of them were like my mother, my guess is that, like my mother, they were codependent and highly frightened of confrontation.
I could write volumes here (but will resist the urge), but suffice it to say, my mother (who grew up in an alcoholic family where she was abused and was subjected to stupid “men are the heads of household” teachings in churches she went to) remained too afraid to confront people later in life, even if I (her daughter) was being bullied at school by kids, or almost-molested by a pervert doctor when I was 15 years old.
My mother’s facial expression during that doctor visit and, later, when I confronted her in the car about it on the drive home, was such that she was detached. She did not want to admit to what was happening, or what did happen.
Her facial expression during and after was like, “I can’t believe this is happening. I’m going to repress this and act like it’s not going on, because I don’t know how to deal. I am too cowardly to confront this doctor, so I’ll just let him try to molest my kid.”
My mother was similarly disinclined to go to my schools when I was being bullied as a kid.
My mother never permitted me to defend myself. So I would come home from school after being picked on by other kids, and I used to beg her to go to the schools and talk to the teachers and ask them to protect me.
My mother would not only let me not defend myself, but she refused to get involved and talk to the teachers (in person OR over the phone) and get me help with the bullying.
My mother just expected me to walk into school every day and get bulled. I love my mom, but she really let me down in some ways, this being one of them.
I think her fear of conflict (part of her codependency) played a role in all this.
I wouldn’t be surprised to find out that some of the parents of the gymnast girls were similar – maybe some of the parents were too afraid to confront Nassar when they were in the room and saw him molesting their kids.
Part of them probably shut down, went into denial mode, and pretended, ‘this is not happening, this is not happening, so I don’t have to say or do anything. It’s easier to just pretend this is not real.’
I think that was how my mother was dealing with this when I was an almost-victim of that pervert doctor when I was a teen. People like her find it easier to repress, avoid conflict, and live in denial, than to confront bullies or perverts head-on.
To clarify:
In my last post I said,
“My mother raised me to be a doormat, that is true, but I never, ever accepted her premise when it concerned sexual molesting or physical touch.”
My mother taught me to be a total doormat, so I lived most of my life allowing other people to emotionally and verbally abuse me, but I always drew the line at physical abuse. I did end up taking a lot of name calling, put downs, etc, from people, but I personally drew the line at physical or sexual abuse, regardless of what my mother taught me.
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insanitybytes22 said,
True. Also-
The quotes by Swanson about a guy molesting boys being “homosexuality,” and a guy molesting girls being “fornication” had me saying to myself, “What?”
When I hear the words “homosexuality” and “fornication,” I generally think in terms of consensual acts, but Swanson was using these in a discussion about an adult molesting teen girls or little girls, where there is no consent.
What happened to the gymnasts was sexual abuse, not two teen-agers “getting it on” in a back seat of a car on date night.
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Lea said,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t male Olympic swimmers wear least of all, as in Speedos swim wear?
What would Swanson say if a national story broke about a male (or I guess it could be a female) swim coach habitually sexually molesting dozens upon dozens of male swimmers?
Would Swanson blame their “immodest” Speedo swim trunks?
Not of course that I’d side with him on that, because ultimately, it’s the clothing that causes a rapist to rape, it’s the rapist. (Duh.)
I’m just wondering if Swanson is driven by misogyny here, or an all-out hatred for anyone who is victimized by perverts (maybe he has a hatred of abuse victims, he thinks they’re all weak for having been victimized in the first place?)
I did a quick google and already see several news headlines one from about 2010, one from 2017, about Olympic swim coaches fondling or secretly recording their proteges / trainees. So far, all the victims in these stories are girls or women. I’m trying to see if there are any male victims.
The victims here are males, I believe (some of the victims mentioned are women), and the coaches are males:
_An Underage Sex Scandal Leads to South Florida’s Swimming Hall of Fame_
Perverts will target kids where ever they can find them, where ever kids congregate, whether at youth classes at churches, swimming classes, boy scout groups, etc. Their clothing is incidental.
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Daisy, re: “homosexuality” and “fornication,”
The reconstructionists have an extremely patriarchal lens on Biblical law… I think they claim purposeful omissions in the OT law (e.g. no Biblical law against child molesters) to make a case that there is no such thing as rape of a single woman, as long as they pay the bride price and the father is okay with it. I’m guessing Swanson would also have the same view for any underage sexual relationships – there’s no such thing as ‘consent’ in his mind, so it’s one or the other.
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Kevin Swanson is a disciple of Greg Bahnsen, a theonomist and Reconstructionist. His seminary “degree” is from Bahnsens now defunct school, which I believe was a correspondence school. So OT law was/is preached as athe standard in which to view things. So that emphasis is constant from the pulpit and conversations.
His group holds a low view of women. I remember several instances in family fellowship (what they called small group Bible study) where this was blatant. Originally the elders had to have a discussion on whether it was biblical to allow women to pray publicly in small group when men were present. They finally deemed that it was allowable 😥
Then there was the lesson from one of the elders on Titus 2 where he clearly stated that a woman working outside the home and under the authority of another man was biblically wrong (I wont use the word sin becuase I don’t want to misquite, but that idea was certainly inferred to all who heard it).
As it became more oppressive, the elders began teaching and citing the 9th commandment from the Westminster Confession about bearing false witness. They would bring this charge up whenever someone was disenting from their view or wanted to have a converstaion about how things were dealt with in the church. They used this to silence members. I remember an elder giving a whole lesson on the 9th commandment and “gossip.” They also used this to instill fear in members and threatened church discipline on those grounds.
Question 144: What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?
Answer: The duties required in the ninth commandment are,
the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man, and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own;
appearing and standing for the truth;
and from the heart, sincerely, freely, clearly, and fully, speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice, and in all other things whatsoever;
a charitable esteem of our neighbors;
loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name;
sorrowing for, and covering of their infirmities;
freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces, defending their innocency;
a ready receiving of a good report, and unwillingness to admit of an evil report, concerning them;
discouraging tale-bearers, flatterers, and slanderers;
love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requireth;
keeping of lawful promises;
studying and practicing of whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.
BTW-Swanson and his church voted to leave the OPC last year. THe presbytery released them in the fall of 2017.
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Please forgive the typos. I was in a hurry.
Also, thank you for your kind words and support. My family appreciates it.
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There seems to be a group who are creepily weird about this whole boss at work being under ‘authority’…makes you wonder what they think actually goes on at work. Or how they act with their employees.
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??
that sounds convenient.
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Lea, has to do with their view of authority. In their mind, we must obey all “lawful” commands by someone in authority. “Lawful” by their twisted definition means any command that does not require me to sin. So, if my boss tells me to lick his boots, well I’m not sinning by licking his boots, so I must do it.
Of course, they would applaud someone like the guy who refused an order to wear a UN flag instead of the US flag on his uniform, but for children, wives and employees… lick those boots!
As I’ve said here before, this is because the WCF is silent on abuse. It is also silent on the limits of our obedience to authority, so you put those two together and the Swansons of the world can drive a Mack truck through it.
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@survivorinco:
AKA a brown-nosed courtier to a future High Commander of the Republic of Gilead.
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@Daisy:
When I hear the word “fornication”, I generally think in terms of “Christianese Buzzword Bingo”.
Which segues into Christianese Loophole.
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@Mark:
And if an order is given by someone in authority (especially Authority by Divine Right), it is AUTOMATICALLY a Lawful Order.
“Ich nabe nur meine Befehle ausgefert.” (“I was only Following Orders.”)
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Which is…not how work works.
Also, I’m just going to leave this little quote here:
No man is good enough to govern any woman without her consent. Susan B. Anthony
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“BTW-Swanson and his church voted to leave the OPC last year. THe presbytery released them in the fall of 2017.”
I don’t know why the NAPARC denominations are so gracious towards wolves. IIRC, in all the member denominations, the property rights are transferred to the presbytery, which means that they could kick Swanson and his church out of their church building and then start another OPC church.
This came to light in the Episcopal and Free Church (Continuing) court cases.
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This gets dicey when you try to do it in practice. An old SBC church left/got kicked out here and they ended up with the building (which they sold or lost, because they didn’t have enough money but that’s another story.)
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Every boy and girl under the age of eighteen in every country on the globe should have the right and blessing to turn eighteen without ever being involved in anything sexual. Including having a pervert look directed at them or having creepy invasive words spoken to them.
I have noticed that conservative men always feel sorry for pedophiles, perverts, wife beaters, and child rapist. They make up excuses for them, try to get them off and want the victim to take half the blame or all the blame.
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Not all men are like that. There’s a lot of good men out there who refuse to feel sorry for the evil ones. There are good men who stand up to evil. There’s no reason to lump all men into the bad people category.
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I read the article in your link, I didn’t listen to his radio interview but I do agree that some of things he says were way off. Warning parents off of allowing their children to play sports because of immodest attire and the focus of the body that would attract men and lesbian coaches . I don’t think he’ s implying any any man would naturally molest female athletes because of the way their dress but that it would further tempt predatory men and lesbians but of course that is ridiculous all the same. Molesters and rapists will commit their crimes against their victims regardless of what they were, it’s not at all about physical attraction abut an act of violence and power. I’m all for encouraging modesty but not for the reasons Pastor Swanson claims but out of
honor and respect for our bodies as God’s temple. I agree that girls(boys too) need to be trained while young to report any abuse that is inflicted on them or what they witness on others, not just for their sake but for the sake of others as these predators will repeat their abuse on other people. They should be taught to confide to an adult they can trust be it a parent, teacher, pastor, youth pastor etc. But he needs to understand that many victims are often too embarrassed and ashamed to talk up. Sometimes they are manipulated or intimidated into keeping quiet and in some circumstances when they do speak up they are not believed or are discouraged by adults from reporting their abuse to the law. He definitely needs to be more empathetic to the victims and their parents. As for this Dr. Nassar, I’m glad he is paying for his crimes and sins and I pray for all his victims and for their healing. God Bless.
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“Ich nabe nur meine Befehle ausgefert.” (“I was only Following Orders.”)
Should be, for future reference:
Ich habe nur [meine] Befehle ausgeführt.
No future reference would be preferable, as actually no authoritarian “evangelical” leader is remotely like Hitler and his Nazis. The comparison is invidious.
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I don’t think it’s so out of line, KAS. I’ve already outlined why Swanson reminds me of hardline Islamists.
Certainly the evangelical gurus haven’t set up death camps, or committed murder (let alone mass murder or genocide). But from where I sit, that’s just a difference of scale. They’ve still done plenty of harm, and their attitude is not so far removed from that of Hitler. Even if their (stated) object of worship isn’t the same as his.
I shudder to think what would happen if men like Swanson ever gained real power, even on a state level. What would they try to revive first, I wonder: stoning of homosexuals, or stoning for blasphemy?
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KAS, “The comparison is invidious”
Tell that to the parents and elders of the girl who was raped by her pastor and refused to report it to the police.
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And (more important) the fact the evangelical gurus don’t have the power of the State behind them. Yet.
That’s what “Taking Back America and Establishing a CHRISTIAN Nation” is for.
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HUG, ever hear of Godwin’s Law? Look it up.
Really, there is plenty to dislike about Swanson without dragging Schicklgruber and the Taliban into it. Overstating one’s case generally weakens it. It’s sufficient to point out things like the fact that, given that a doctor must see his patients in a state of undress from time to time, “immodesty” is hardly a legitimate excuse for him to be molesting them. That some victims did cry out, and that there is indeed ambiguity when a doctor is doing the molestation–nobody expects the exam to turn sexual.
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