Mark Driscoll, Tullian Tchividjian, Spiritual abuse, clergy sexual misconduct
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Tullian Tchividjian and Mark Driscoll are Baaaack
Today was a really difficult day with the shootings in Las Vegas. As of this writing, 59 people have died, and over 500 injured. What a horrible, senseless tragedy, with so many people harmed. As I was reeling from that news, I learned that Tullian Tchividjian and Mark Driscoll are back: Tullian, with a new website here; and Mark Driscoll, with a new blog on Patheos, here.
As my head was spinning with the thought that many lost loved ones today, it dawned on me that there have also been casualties with the “ministries” of these two men, not physical deaths, but emotional and spiritual deaths. In both cases, I know of people who have abandoned their faith. And many are still suffering from the effects of spiritual abuse.
But here they are again, Mark Driscoll already started his new church, but he is now putting himself more in the spotlight with his new blog. And Tullian . . . starting a new website and blogging . . . so soon???? Unreal. I have no words.
Here is the Facebook post from his wife, Stacie, announcing his new gig:
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And here’s Mark Driscoll:
We’ll have more to come on Tullian. Ugh!
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Impossible to click “LIKE” on this post.
But thanks JA for keeping us informed.
Most big names in Christendom are gonna let this ride, I bet.
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Call me cynical, but I can’t help questioning the timing on both these stories in the midst of such tragedy in America. For these two individuals “sorry seems to be the hardest word”. I’m really saddened that these guys have appeared to have gotten away with so much in terms of abuse within the church. Then this morning I opened my wee bible ap and was reminded of some timely words in Proverbs 17 “After all, even a fool may be thought wise and intelligent if he stays quiet and keeps his mouth shut.” Proverbs 17:28 GNBDC http://bible.com/416/pro.17.28.gnbdc People i.e. Their followers have been duped by their quietness with regards to their transgressions. Thankyou Julie Anne for all you do. Your blog has brought me so much not only strength but hope and healing in the last few years. It has helped me to know the heart of Jesus more. Keep doing what you are doing. It’s obvious your strength is in him. Bless you sweet sheep lady. Xx Olga
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Let’s see? Narcissism, abuse of power, seduction of women, adultery multiple times.
I agree with Barbara Roberts (10/3/17) that many big names are going to let this ride, Yet everywhere in the world there are humble courageous pastors and lay leaders who stand for what is right.
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I gotta say that I also am upset with the wives of these Yahoo’s. How do they stand it?? I would not be able to stand such a man I’d be loooooong gone.
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That very first line from Tullian! Ugh…Also, ‘And Geez’ from Stacie?
I can’t even with Driscoll. What up Pathos?
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The video the Driscolls posted is about how THEY are getting over the pain other people have inflicted on THEM.
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Oh, that’s just gross, Rebecca!! I didn’t see that.
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Is this Stacie Tchividjian a home-wrecker?
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Pretty sure Tullian did a good job wrecking his own home. But she was cool with marrying him.
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Oh, I know Tullien is a weird serial pervert and a home-wrecker himself, but I wondered if she got with him while he was married.
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I just recently visited Driscoll’s church and personal website and now this. What astounds me is there is nothing at all of the wreck that was done at Mars Hill. Like it never happened. And, like Driscoll is some kind and loving and Jesus-devoted helper who can lead people to hope and comfort. Without knowing the background of how Driscoll abused and harmed people and twisted the good news of Jesus through control-freak, hierarchical churchianity, it’s a sham.
How did he get on Patheos? I was told you have to be invited to blog on that, but suspect he must of paid to get on.
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Their relationship began while he was still married to Kim.
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“Come with me to your deepest bottom…” Tullian Tchividjian
LOL. Enough said.
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Like Ted haggard, Jim Bakker, and Jimmy Swaggart, let the heat die down then Hit the Comeback Trail. “IO, TRIOMPHE!”
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The approach they both use here is really nauseating. “We’re just little ol’ Christians just trying to help people. Golly gee. Plus, don’t you just NEED us to make your life better?”
Vomit.
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Right? It’s so faux folksy! I hate that.
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Christianity hurts, yes, their relationship began while Kim was still married to him (all the while publicly putting Kim under the bus).
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This article is very good!
https://twitter.com/Ponder_Anew/status/915271242835521536
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So, it appears Tullian Tchividjian is on the comeback trail — again — this time with support by Paul Zahl.
The article by Dr. Mark Jones linked to below shares many helpful thoughts on grace and forgiveness — and consequences and repentance. He also clearly shows a knowledge of the key issues in the unfolding history of Tullian Tchividjian’s multiple instances of clergy sexual misconduct, avoidance of accountability, and questionable repentance. He also gets at theological problems and probable destructive impacts of a comeback for someone who disqualified himself from public ministry and whose governing authority removed his ministry credentials.
https://calvinistinternational.com/2017/10/03/paul-zahl-world-needs-tullian-preaching/
[Comment edited to clarify content.]
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That’s a great article, Brad. Thank you!
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The fawning adoration from Zahl is vomit inducing.
At least Stacie and Tullian have the consideration to compile a list of people to mark and avoid.
Oh also, Matt Richard happily affirmed that Tullian is now a member of the Church of the Lutheran Brethren, where Matt used to be ordained. Matt is now LCMS. However Tullian is under a pastor that Matt really respects so… I guess it’s all good!
gag
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i seem to remember getting told I was “slandering” by a certain seafaring jackass when I retweeted a satirical tweet from the old Tullian Tchananagans account about a comeback being in the works.
Hey how come he doesn’t just hook up with Christ Hold Fast and 1517 Legacy? Are they suddenly excluding adulterous pastors now? Cant be, because Chad Bird and Daniel Price are still involved. So what’s with that?
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I have updated the Resource Bibliography on System Issues Related to the Tullian Tchividjian Situation with links to recent blog posts and tweets. I also added the following summary, analysis, and links. You’ll find it at the bottom of the post, under “CHRONOLOGY: 2017.”
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/03/18/resource-bibliography-on-system-issues-related-to-the-tullian-tchividjian-situation/
Key Events: August-September-October 2017. A new blog with the masthead Tullian: Sinner and Saint was apparently launched in August, with its first post dated August 6th. This renewed endeavor for a public platform gained more recognition with a post on September 15th by Patrick Thurmer, A Word from Tullian’s Pastor, and another by Paul Zahl on September 29th, Dust Became Mercy: A Word About My Friend Tullian. It seems they want him to be a public figure, like he was before.
The site purports that “Tullian is a husband, a father, an author, a speaker, a sinner, and a saint who longs to see broken people encounter God’s boundless love.” However, there is no evidence available yet that he has repaired the damage he himself inflicted on multiple women he victimized in recent years (see above history and timelines) — many of them at the same time he was having books published (see this post on ministry-disqualifying character/behavior issues, and the related infographic that shows the overlap of details of sexual misconduct and publishing). This failure is the core to why there is some severe push-back against Tullian Tchividjian’s continuing attempts to restore a public platform for personal influence and teaching.
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P.S. The links are embedded in that two-paragraph summary.
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That article you shared by Ponder Anew was spot on. And someone on twitter said Driscoll and Tullian are like whack-a-mole. LOL.
As much as it pains me to see people get sucked into the Driscoll/Tchividjian orbit, I have to wonder who in the heck would fall for their schtick with all the available information on the internet now days???
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If there are still people who are taken in by these carnival barkers and part with their hard earned cash when the hat is passed, they deserve each other.
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You’re right, M. Joy, the whack-a-mole comment was spot on!
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Muff,
Let’s be careful to keep the responsibility where it belongs. You have a good point that people are responsible for being on their guard. But we’ve also heard the wolves use that same wording to blame people who fell for the scam. No one ever deserves to be scammed. Even the smartest people can fall for the tricks of highly skilled con artists. Let’s keep the burden of responsibility on the perpetrator.
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The spin never stops with Tullian. His “new pastor” (notice that the people who knew him best are still distancing themselves, for a reason) claims that Tullian was living a humble life in “rural Texas”,making it sound like he was living in quiet solitude and reflection. What a wonderful man, all sack cloth and ashes, atoning for his sins. His journey through the wilderness after all that self-denial and atonement should surely come to an end, right?
I don’t know if Tullian’s new pastor is willfully ignorant, an accomplice desperate for a tiny grab at some of that good ole Billy Graham fame by association, a co-dependent provider of narcissistic supply source or simply an easily duped man. But he is painting a false picture here.
Mr Humble Rural Texas was living with Stacie in The Woodlands, which is where the wealthiest, chic and sexiest Houstonians live. If there was a Real Housewives of Houston it would be filmed in the Woodlands and it’s not improbable that Stacie Phillips and Tullian would apply to be on it. Stacie was featured as one of the top ten hottest bachelorettes in Houston. They were seen canoodling at the toniest night spots in Houston, not grieving over breaking up his family, wrecking his church and destroying the lives of at least 7 families of the ladies he was emotionally and sexually grooming for personal gain. This whole “I did my time in some humble, monastic shack in rural Texas” is pure, devious, manipulative Tullian spin, designed to lure gullible people back in. Shame on Tullian and shame on the pastor who is helping to paint this false narrative.
Above all else, Tullian Tchividjian is a pathological and serial predator. No one should be aiding and abetting his next platform so that he can prey on more women.
http://houston.culturemap.com/news/city-life/03-14-13-houstons-most-eligible-bachelors-and-bachelorettes-10-hot-singles-to-heat-up-your-march/#slide=6
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Can you imagine referring to Houston, the fourth largest city in America, as ‘rural’??
Don’t give them any ideas!!!
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Please let’s not forget to pray for Tullian’s and Stacie’s ex spouses and their children. They are the “main” victims and may never fully heal. Pray that God will surround them with loving, supportive people.
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LT–
Oh my! I clicked on that link. (I confess, I thought you were exaggerating about Stacie being listed as a most eligible bachelorette in a swanky Houston neighborhood.)
So TT is pretending to be living a quiet rural lifestyle, but is actually married to a wealthy A-Lister.
The spin never stops.
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Based on his new church affiliation, do you think he’s planning on becoming a Lutheran minister at some point? Does anyone know if his new church is affiliated with a specific synod? For example, Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Synod, American Lutheran, etc.?
At one point in the recent past (2015?), he spoke to a group of seminarians at the Concordia Seminary in St. Louis which is part of the Lutheran church Missouri Synod. I believe it was for their Reformation 500 annual lecture series.
Lutheran now, h’mmmm. I would not be surprised if this was an avenue along the TT comeback trail. Of course, becoming a pastor again would all depend on the specific rules / qualifications of the Lutheran church which may or may not be similar to the PCA. Is it possible to be disqualified from one denomination, but eligible for another?
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@ Avid Reader
You’ve heard the old expression “fool me once”…? Well yeah then you’re right, I (generic I) effed up… so cut me some slack.
And then there’s the thing when you (generic you) continue to let em’ do it.
You do see the salient difference? Yes? No? Which is why I stand on my original comment.
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Here is the thing I think people do. They see that they were fooled by a person, church, what have you. They learn from it some particular red flags and try to avoid those particular things – then sometimes they get caught up when something presents differently. I think in relationships you may see this as people going from one type of person to a totally different type, and then finding the same problems. In churches, maybe they switch denominations?
Who is really letting these men in? I think in a lot of cases, it’s a bunch of people at the top, just like them. they have motives and are often not actually fooled. At least that’s my impression. Like Pathos. They’re looking for clicks, and lending credibility in the process.
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Living Faith Church is associated with Church of the Lutheran Brethren (CLB).
http://www.livingfaithchurch.us/
http://www.clba.org/
If you look at the CLB ABOUT tab Statement of Faith, and Core Values statement, the Lutheran emphasis on Law/Gospel is clearly there. I believe there are some helpful aspects to a Law/Gospel approach; discipleship does involve both understanding and seeking to live out mandates God has given us AND ALSO the empowerment by the Spirit to put those into action. However, there are problems in a Law/Gospel view that can quickly lead to “hyper-grace,” which has always seemed at play in both Tullian Tchividjian’s theology and his lifestyle.
What I believe we’ve seen with how hyper-grace is lived out is that, IN EFFECT, justification and sanctification get collapsed into one state of being (though people might not think that’s what they’re believing). So, there really is no trajectory of transformation — just orbiting in a constant cycle of temptation-[optional: resisting]-sin-forgiveness-relief. With such an individualistic focus (i.e., how my sin affects ME in MY relationship with God), it would make sense that, as Nate Sparks tweeted a few days ago (paraphrasing), Tullian can admit to everything he’s done, and yet take responsibility for nothing.
Admission of personal sin is not the same as remediation of relational damage. What has been done to take responsibility for the destructive impact on the lives of others?
Being a sinner-saint is a biblical truth about our justification and standing before God and our state in this world, but sanctification is not some mere static state. Where is the evidence of seeking to change the dynamics so that cycles are less frequent because there is progress in self-control, and using the empowerment of the Holy Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh?
Hyper-grace is not a healthy response to the equally flawed theologies and practices of legalism where behavioral conformity gives the appearance of sanctification, but ultimately (likewise) denies the power thereof. But hanging on to hyper-grace and accusing critics of legalism, lack of forgiveness, and having no grace just doesn’t wash. We need to point out faulty views of “grace/gospel” — just as we do with forms of “law” — in order to challenge the efforts for a public platform by those whose character and behavior disqualify them from it. And this, ultimately, is to protect the flock from those who demonstrate they use people as pawns for their own self advantage, which brings together personal accountability and social/relational responsibility.
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As Hunter S Thompson wrote about Richard Nixon:
“What does it take to keep him from coming back? A stake through the heart?”
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Interesting that Driscoll pretty much comes out and says that this return is about ‘control’. Apparently people seeking ‘guidance’ will come to his website so that he can control them.
Tullian is much more slick. I’m sure his website will be full of self-deprecation and grace-seeking while behind the scenes, he grooms his followers to be rabid attack dogs against the naysayers.
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Indeed. I think this is why I’ve started to hate hearing about these actions in terms of ‘sin’ and theology. What people are really doing is hurting other people. That’s wrong not just because God Says So. That’s wrong because it’s wrong. It’s a glaring lack of love and care for fellow humans, and not just generic random people – often people you have professed to love. That is what needs to be addressed imo and when people talk about it in terms of sin, they are often doing so expressly to avoid dealing with real people.
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Wolves will do anything it takes to deceive people. Their whole game plan is figuring out and doing whatever is necessary to get people to drop their guard. Their favorite method is using good people to vouch for them because they know we will be skeptical of strangers but more likely to trust someone good who introduces them to us. Wolves are masters of deception. That’s how they can cheat the smartest people.
Muff,
By the way, I never meant to say to you that you messed up. Only that we need to stop allowing wolves to blame shift away from their own responsibility. People get scammed because wolves very carefully schemed to use any means necessary to pull the wool over their eyes.
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No one would ever be scammed if the wolf hadn’t made evil choices in the first place. Let’s be careful never to let the wolf blame the victim for falling for the scam.
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Church of the Lutheran Brethren? Speaking only for myself, this Lutheran does not want him near our people while in a position of authority. I would hope he could not get into LCMS, but I am also concerned for the Church of the Lutheran Brethren.
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Terrier gal said,
By “sea faring jackass,” did you mean Pirate Radio host Chris Rosebrough?
I remember when Julie Anne began tweeting and blogging about Tullian’s Shenanigans over a year ago, Rosebrough was tut-tutting her, saying she didn’t have all the facts like he did.
If I recall correctly, the only “facts” Rosebrough had at the time is that he spoke by phone first hand with some pastor friend dude of Tullian’s, who reassured Rosebrough that Tullian was repenting and being a good boy.
It wasn’t until Julie Anne began publishing a 657,856 series of the 6567,345 women Tullian slept with that Rosebrough blushed, got all embarrassed, deleted all his pro-fawning Tullian content from his own site and said, “Oops!!! My Bad!!”
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J. Smith: CLB is not in fellowship with LCMS or WELS/ELS. I doubt he would be accepted into any of these denominations as a pastor. It did not sit well with me when he spoke at Concordia which I think was before all this came to light.
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More “grooming” and more spiritual abuse to come by Tullian and Mark, using the Name of Jesus, in vain, for their personal gain.
The Body of Christ should be grieving and warning innocent sheep of these wolves who are sharpening their teeth and arranging their coffers for the fleecing. And as they approach their pulpits, stages, or any other Nicolaitan platform in lording it others, they will soak in the applause, the patting of their backs, the positive comments they will receive, all of the gifts to them, personally, and their families, from the pew sitters, and especially the volumes of money, money, money. For in their hearts, they desire to enrich their lavish lifestyles, for they truly desire to be “first” and “foremost” amongst the church folks, twisting the Holy Scriptures for their kingdoms and their gain.
And even more painful to the Body of Christ, they will have their henchmen and women (false preachers and teachers/ pseudo Christian leadership), defending their honor, their doctrines, and their lifestyles because behind the scenes, for they are good buddies. And rare, is that individual who says, “I was wrong, please forgive me.”
There are pastors now writing articles, etc., denouncing church goers for making sports an idol in this country. I have to wonder if they have ever analyzed the “house of God” for a moment, for I believe we have a worse case scenario, that even Jesus called out in His day.
“I believe the most frightening idolatry happening in America today, is the worship of the clergy class/religious leadership class and the power they have over God’s people.” Follow the false religion, the prostitute church, and you will find lucrative money trail. This concerns me more that watching a football game in person on the television screen.
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Kay, you are spot on. Not only worshiping the religious leaders and their power (who claim they have all the answers) but worshiping the whole institutional church system. So, Seattle, for example, is described by Mars Hill and Driscoll as a great spiritual desert in desperate need of Jesus (meaning they need Bible-preaching churches like MH who really preach the Gospel). In their world, God is not moving unless a MH type church with church authority (able to put you under church discipline when necessary) and their brand of the gospel and discipleship has made a mark (Driscoll loved to brag about 10,000 baptisms in MH churches). This puts God only accessible in institutional churches and people only able to tap God if they put themselves under those churches. This is pure legalistic and control-freak religion.
I find God and Jesus more present in my local Rotary Club than in churches, where the club motto is “service over self” and where they never talk about the Bible or religion but actually live out love for neighbor.
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Liked.
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@mwcamp
You have given me much hope, sir! Alleluia and Amen to all you said!
I believe in the real world, churches like Mars Hill would be called “a cult” with cult leaders lording it over others for their own personal gain. I used to believe the commandment that states, “Thou shalt not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain,” meant that we should not use His Name as a curse word.
I now believe it’s meant that we, the Body of Christ, should never use God’s Name for personal gain as we experience in the western churches.
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I notice Tullian’s book is for sale. Sigh…
Maybe it’s time to get an ordinary job, Tullian.
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One of the little people: I might add on his new website there’s a question box asking for input; “What new resources should Tullian create?” Its located in the “share your story” section.
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@Lea:
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Katy, Thanks! Yes, there are two things going on that are hopeful. One, people are discovering that modern churches are not the real model of gatherings in the NT — and they are a problematic model at that (professional clergy, church authority, etc.). So, they are only healthy if they recognize the problems and are transparent about them. Then, with that, we discover modern churches are optional, not mandatory. Then we discover there are many other “organic” ways to have gatherings of Jesus believers. Homes, pubs, cafes, conferences, etc.
Two, is the discovery that God works outside the church, probably more than he does inside the church, because the church is so full of itself. So Rotary Clubs, NGOs, human rights movements, criminal justice reform, other causes, etc., etc., are reflecting the kingdom of God more than churches. Churches focus on right doctrine and religious codes to test membership, whereas these other “gatherings” focus on love, dignity, respect, economic equality, and human rights for all — particularly “the least of these.”
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Re the tag “cleargy sexual misconduct”:
These days, I’m getting surprised when I hear of clergy WITHOUT sexual misconduct.
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Some of you reading this right now are called to be pastors, evangelists, teachers, etc. Don’t let anyone talk you out of what God has put in your heart. Yes the Rotary Club does many wonderful works. We need more service oriented type organizations to meet physical needs. But the heart of God bleeds for spiritual needs to be met. Jesus asked us to pray for more laborers to go to the harvest. The Rotary Club is not spreading the good news of redemption through Christ.
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Hi Katy
Yes – Me too…
“I used to believe the commandment that states,
“Thou shalt not take the Name of the LORD your God in vain,”
meant that we should not use His Name as a curse word.”
Ex 20:7
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
xxxxxxx
Yes – I like your way of thinking… You write…
“I now believe it’s meant that we, the Body of Christ,
should never use God’s Name for personal gain
as we experience in the western churches.”
xxxxxxx
And – Here’s an additional way of thinking…
“Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain…”
Thou shalt NOT “take”… (“Take” something that does NOT belong to you.)
“the name” of the LORD thy God… (“Names” that belong to God.)
in “Vain”… (Strongs = #7723 = shav’ – evil – figuratively idolatry – false.)
“Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain…”
Has to do with “Today’s Wanna-be Religious Leaders”
Taking for themselves…
”the Names and “Titles,” of God.”
And taking those ”Names” and “Titles,” in Vain.
”Names” and “Titles,” like…
Shepherd – Leader – Reverend.
Could this be why… In the Bible…
NOT one of His Disciples called themself, or “took” the “Title,” pastor?
Or shepherd? Or poimen? Or leader? or reverend?
1 – Shepherd
Psalm 23:1 – The Lord is my shepherd.
1 Pet 2:25 …returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
John 10:16 …there shall be ”ONE” fold and “ONE” shepherd.
2 – Leader
Jesus taught His Disciples. “And do NOT be called leaders;”
‘For “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.” Mat 23:10 NASB.
3 – Reverend
…holy and reverend is his name. Psalm 111:9 KJV — (name. = shem)
Hmmm? What about – ”Todays, Shepherds, Leaders, Reverends?”
Aren’t these ”Names” and “Titles,” belonging to the LORD thy God?
Are “Today’s Wanna-be Religious Leaders?”
”Taking God’s Name?” — And taking His Name – in Vain?
Oy Vey!!! 😦
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Hi Amos,
Welcome back. Been a while since we heard from you. Hope all is well.
Just read your comment and am still absorbing what you said! We’ve already had a fascinating long discussion on another thread where we exhausted just about every verse on this topic so I don’t want to repeat all the ground that we’ve already covered. However—since this issue has been raised again—Amos, please confirm if you still believe what you said previously:
1) Amos believes that no one is called by God to be pastor, evangelist, teacher, etc.
2) Amos believes that any pastor who receives tithes is a wolf. That means Amos is calling Pastor Jeff Crippen a wolf simply because he receives a salary for his work.
3) Now Amos just stated that to be a pastor automatically makes you guilty of taking God’s name in vain. Whoa! That’s throwing a lot of NT verses right out the window!
Please note that pure logic can sometimes sound cold and detached. That’s not my intention. I’m just really surprised that Amos is accusing good people of taking God’s name in vain—simply for trying to fulfill the call of God on their lives.
We believed Jane when she described hearing the call of God to be a pastor. We would love to see her fulfilling that calling. She has already shaken up the evangelical world with one blog post. Imagine what she could do with a bigger platform. Does anyone here object to Jane having the resources she needs to fulfill her calling?
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Hi Avid Reader
Sorry I did NOT explain myself properly in our other conversations.
You ask me…
“please confirm if you still believe what you said previously:”
Well, the things you said I, Amos, said, previously… And believes…
I never said… Or believed…
I’ll try to do a little better. 😉
xxxxxxx
You write…
“1) Amos believes that no one is called by God
to be pastor, evangelist, teacher, etc.”
Nope… I never said that…
I do ask folks… When they say, “Being a pastor is a calling.”
I’ll ask… In the Bible… Can you name…
One of His Disciples called by God to be a pastor?
Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
One of His Disciples who called themself pastor?
Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
One of His Disciples who was called pastor?
Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
One of His Disciples who “took” the “Title,” pastor?
Or shepherd? Or leader? Or reverend?
In Eph 4:11,
And “he gave”
some, apostles;
and some, prophets;
and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers;
I often say, pastors, in the Bible…
Ain’t nuttin like what WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Church…
Find in “Today’s Religious Systems.”
In the Bible, can you name…
One of His Disciples who became a…
Paid, Professional, Pastor, in a Pulpit?
Preaching, to People in Pews?
Weak after Weak?
In the Bible, any pastor/shepherds “he gave” in Eph 4:11…
Were anonymous, NOT known…
But, maybe you can name one that I missed…
In the Bible, any pastor/shepherds, “he gave” are
NOT “Titled.” Like WE, His Sheep, see today.
NOT Hired. Or Fired
NOT Hired, from one congregation, to go to another congregation.
NOT speaking of themself seeking their own glory.
Putting their name and “Title” on office doors, Secratary’s desks,
Sunday Morning bullitins, Street signs, Diplomas on walls, etc…
NOT having their own parking space. 😉
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Avid Reader, I can’t speak for Amos, but there is a perfectly “biblical” way of interpreting pastor, evangelist, and teacher as roles, not offices. This model says Western Christianity has gone too far calling people by those names as a title. The NT teaches they are gifts or roles, but not titles to call someone. And, there is no model for a professional pastor in the NT, where tithes are used to pay a person a salary.
In my mind, calling a pastor a wolf for taking a salary is wrong, BUT if that same pastor twists scripture to lay a guilt trip on church members that they MUST tithe to his church or else they are being disobedient to God, then “wolf” might fit. Modern pastors and churches should be honest about the modern church model of salaried clergy paid by tithes. They are free to use that model, but should make clear it is voluntary, not a matter of obedience to God. This is very serious to twist the Bible to fit some modern model as if God ordained that to be a good Christian one must join an institutional church and “tithe” to it to pay expenses and salaries of workers and leaders. The NT never ordains or commands that. Tithing is an OT concept for a totally different purpose.
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Avid Reader
You write…
“2) Amos believes that any pastor who receives tithes is a wolf.
That means Amos is calling Pastor Jeff Crippen a wolf
simply because he receives a salary for his work.”
NOPE… I never said that…
And, I’m NOT calling Jeff Crippen a wolf.
I do NOT know what Jeff Crippen thinks, or teaches, about “Tithes.”
Do you Know???
And, I’m-a-thinkn, Jeff knows my feeling about the “title” pastor.
And, “tithes” and “salary” are two different things…
In the Bible, The “Tithe” was never Silver, Gold, or Money.
It was always food to be eaten, or sacrificed to God.
Have you ever seen a Benjamin, a $50 bill, burnt on an alter. 🙂
The “Tithe” was NEVER from wages.
xxxxxxx
I do like this “Tithe.”
But, I NEVER heard about it from the pulpit, by a pastor. 🙂
This “Tithe” is for You and Your family to EAT? And Rejoice.
That You and Your family may learn to fear the LORD thy God?
Deuteronomy 14:22-26 KJV
Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of “thy seed,”
that the field bringeth forth year by year.
23 And thou (You) shalt EAT before the LORD thy God,
in the place which he shall choose to place his name there,
the tithe of thy (Your) corn, of (Your) wine, and of thine (Your) oil,
and the firstlings of thy (Your) herds and of thy (Your) flocks;
that thou (You) mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.
24 And if the way be too long for thee,
so that thou art not able to carry it;
or if the place be too far from thee,
which the LORD thy God shall choose
to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:
25 Then shalt thou turn it into Money,
and bind up the money in thine hand,
and shalt go unto the place
which the LORD thy God shall choose:
26 And thou shalt bestow that money
for whatsoever thy (YOUR) soul lusteth after,
for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink,
or for whatsoever thy soul desireth:
and thou (YOU) shalt EAT there before the LORD thy God,
and thou (YOU) shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household
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mwcamp
You write…
“I can’t speak for Amos…”
Oh, yes you can… 🙂
Your reply was excellent…
“there is no model for a professional pastor in the NT”
NONE..
Yes – “…pastor, evangelist, and teacher as roles, not offices.”
And, roles… NOT “Titles.”
Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
neither let me give Flattering Titles unto man.
For I know NOT to give Flattering Titles;
in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
Job 32:21 KJV
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Avid reader
In my experience with the “Title/Position” of Today’s pastor/leader/reverend…
A “Title/Position,” that does NOT exist in the Bible…
For one of His Disciples.
“Titles” become “Idols”
“Pastors” become “Masters”
“Leaders” become “Deceivers”
“Titles” become “Idols” ………….. “Idols” of the heart – Ezek14:1-11 KJV
“Pastors” become “Masters”……..A big No, No. Mat 23:10 KJV, Mat 6:24 KJV
“Leaders” become “Deceivers”….Isa 3:12 KJV, Isa 9:16 KJV, Mat 15:14 KJV
xxxxxxx
“Titles” will be used to “Separate” the brethren.
I am – You are NOT.
“Titles” will be used to “Elevate” one brethren over another brethren.
I’m the shepherd – You are only sheep.
“Titles” will be used to “Control” and “Manipulate” the brethren.
Because I’m “The Pastor.”
Your God ordained authority.
Don’t touch the head of God’s anointed.
“Titles” – “Separate”
“Titles” – “Elevate”
“Titles” – Will be used to “Control” and “ Manipulate.”
xxxxxxx
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
THEIR shepherds
have caused them to go astray,
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray;
BUT are now returned to
the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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So true, Amos. Well stated.
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Amos, I get it. Christians want visible leaders and guides… they want men to follow.
Jesus says, “Follow ME”.
I see no salaried religious professionals in the New Testament.
Christians are heaping up teachers left, right and centre… just like Paul said would happen.
Avid, God gives his people gifts to proclaim the gospel. Those of us who do so ARE acting as ‘evangelists’. Those who spend time guiding younger believers ARE acting as ‘pastors/shepherds’ and ‘teachers’. The key word is ‘SOME’. He gave SOME… teachers, evangelists, pastors.
Not ALL.
Some.
But a few.
The entire Institutional ‘church’ system is a harlot.
It sets itself up against God and the Holy Spirit is left outside its gates.
Those of us who reject the system and still walk one on one with God can see it clearly.
But many choose not to.
They want their clubs.
Amos gets it. Mwcamp too.
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Amos, “For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.” (Titus 1:5-6)
I’ve been deeply hurt by people who were appointed as pastors and elders, but I’m not going to throw out everything the Bible teaches about that. I think we have to differentiate between Biblical pastors and elders and Institutional pastors and elders. For example, in “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse”, the authors talk about pastors and elders as primarily people who God has led on a journey of wisdom. In other words authority = God-directed life experience. On the other hand, the institutional church considers pastors and elders to be those who are willing, and those who have had the proper theological training. In other words authority = knowledge + church approval. I find it odd that 25 year olds are graduating from seminary and are expected to be the pastors and leaders of their churches. Most of these are newly married, have maybe a 3yo kid, and haven’t had any sort of full-time job, yet they are expected to be the advisors, counselors and teachers of a church?
If you doubt that professional ministry is part of the NT model, 1 Corinthians 9 is Paul’s defense of paid ministers. “Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar? So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.” (13-14)
Like the NT church, I think we mistake eloquence and forceful personality for God-given authority. I think the Corinthian church was expecting Paul to have a forceful personality, and his demeanor when he was there probably did not match their expectations. We still yearn for someone to ‘tell us what to do’ from the pulpit, and unfortunately, there are many wolves who would love to do just that.
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The Church of the Lutheran Brethren seems an odd choice. They are an historically Pietist body, and reject certain aspects of Lutheran belief, such as espousing premillienialism (Lutherans are amillenial), Absolution, and subscription to the Book of Concord. I think they may have been teetotallers historically, but I may be wrong.
Why did he choose this denomination?
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Avid Reader
You write…
“3) Now Amos just stated that to be a pastor automatically makes you guilty of taking God’s name in vain. Whoa! That’s throwing a lot of NT verses right out the window!”
NOPE… I never said that…
I’ll say it again…
Any pastors/shepherds, in the Bible…
Ain’t nuttin like what WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, His Church…
Find in “Today’s Corrupt Religious Systems.”
In the Bible, any, “shepherds,” “he gave” in Eph 4:11…
Were anonymous, NOT known…
In the Bible, any “shepherds,” pastors, “he gave”
Did NOT tell anyone they were a shepherd, or leader, or reverend.
Did NOT call themself shepherd, or leader, or reverend.
Did NOT call another Disciple, shepherd, or leader, or reverend.
Did NOT promote themselves as a shepherd, or leader, or reverend.
Did NOT promote themselves as a “Special Clergy Class.”
Did NOT promote His Sheep, as a “lesser lay people class.”
Like WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, SEE, over and over again, in…
“Today’s Corrupt Religious Systems.”
1 Pet 5:2-3 KJV
Feed the flock of God which is among you, (Among – NOT over.)
taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint,
but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
Neither as being lords over God’s heritage,
but being ensamples to the flock.
Shepherds, in the Bible, are like Julie Anne…
And many others on this site…
They just Feed The Flock of God. 1 Pet 5:2-3, KJV
They just Tend The Flock of God. 1 Pet 5:2-3, RSV
They just Care For The Flock of God. 1 Pet 5:2-3, NLT
They just Shepherd The Flock of God. 1 Pet 5:2-3, NKJV
NO “Titles,” needed.
NO “Ordination,” needed.
NO “Demanding,” that other sheep obey them, needed.
NO “Call me pastor, Call me leader, Call me reverend, needed.
NO “Taking” the name of the LORD thy God needed.
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Avid Reader
Boy, I must have done a real lousy job in our past conversations.
You have mis-understood me, and mis-quoted me, ALL three times.
Three times you have said… I, Amos, said, and believed…
Stuff I NEVER said, or believed.
You you do NOT have to apologize or ask for forgiveness…
I have already forgiven you. 😉
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Avid Reader
“3) Now Amos just stated that to be a pastor
automatically makes you guilty of taking God’s name in vain.
Whoa! That’s throwing a lot of NT verses right out the window!”
NOPE… I never said that…
I’m-a-thinkn…
When you Take the position of shepherd, leader, reverend…
When you Take the “Title,” of shepherd, leader, reverend…
You are Taking the name of the Lord thy God, in Vain.
xxxxxxx
Maybe this will help…
NAME – In Strongs – is #8034 – shem
1 – a definite and conspicuous position…
(conspicuous – Dictionary – standing out, clearly visible)
2 – an appellation
(appellation – Dictionary – a name or “Title”)
3 – by implication honor, authority, character.
xxxxxxx
Now, When Exodus 20:7, says, “Thou shalt NOT take the Name.”
Could WE, His Sheep, understand that as…
Thou shalt NOT take the Name
a definite and conspicuous position – of the LORD thy God…???
Thou shalt NOT take the Name
an appellation – a name or “Title” – of the LORD thy God…???
Thou shalt NOT take the Name –
the honor, authority, character – of the LORD thy God…???
xxxxxxx
VAIN – In Strongs = #7723 = shav’
1 – in the sense of desolating; –
(desolate – Dictionary – bleak and dismal emptiness)
2 – evil (as destructive),
(destructive – Dictionary – causing great and irreparable harm)
3 – figuratively *idolatry
( *idolatry – Dictionary – worship, admiration, reverence for something)
4 – *vain
( *vain – Dictionary – having a high opinion of one’s, abilities, or worth)
5 – vanity
(vanity – Disctionary – pride in or admiration of one’s own achievements)
xxxxxxx
Avid?
What about – ”Todays, Shepherds, Leaders, Reverends?”
Aren’t these ”Names” and “Titles,” belonging to the LORD thy God?
Are “Today’s Wanna-be Religious Leaders?”
”Taking God’s Name?” — And taking His Name – in Vain?
Oy Vey!!! 😦
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Hi Mark
Thanks for your comment…
Much agreement when you write…
“I think we have to differentiate between ** Biblical pastors** and elders
and Institutional pastors and elders.”
Me too…
“I find it odd that 25 year olds are graduating from seminary
and are expected to be the pastors and leaders of their churches.
Most of these are newly married, have maybe a 3yo kid,
and haven’t had any sort of full-time job,
yet they are expected to be the advisors,
counselors and teachers of a church?”
Yeah, How’s that bin-a- workin?
xxxxxxx
Seems, many times, in the Bible, elder just means older…
And NOT an “office” to be looked up to.
Yes – “God-directed life experience” counts – big time.
And Biblical pastors were anonymous, NOT known…
Biblical pastors do NOT call themselves pastor.
Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
Biblical pastors do NOT take the “Title,” pastor.
Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
Biblical pastors are NOT Hired as a pastor.
Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.
Biblical pastors do NOT become…
Paid, Professional, Pastors, in Pulpits…
Preaching, to People in Pews…
Weak after Weak.
Institutional pastors put their name and “Title” everywhere…
And Promote themselves as leaders, church leaders, spiritual leaders…
And Promote themselves as “God Ordained Authority.”
And Exercise Authority like the Gentiles…
And Lord it Over God’s heritage…
And do NOT submit one to another…
Institutional pastors want you to, and teach you to…
Pray, Pay, Stay and Obey… 😉
Biblical pastors want you to, and teach you to…
Get it for yourself from Jesus…
You need NO man teach you…
God will teach you ALL truth…
The Holy Spirit will lead and guide you into ALL truth.
His Sheep, Hear His Voice and Follow Jesus…
Those who are “Led” by the Spirit are the sons of God…
NOT those “Led” by a Mere Fallible Human…
xxxxxxx
Be blessed in your search for truth…
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Hi Salty
It’s been awhile… Good to hear from you… 🙂
Yes – You get it…
“Jesus says, “Follow ME”.”
“I see no salaried religious professionals in the New Testament.”
Yup – Folks can go Directly to Jesus… NO middle man… 😉
Then share what Jesus has taught you…
Seems Paul, and most likely Jesus…
Gave some instructions for ALL…
WE, His Sheep, His Disciples…
when ye come together,
when ye come together,
ALL, can, and are expectd to “Particapate.”
1 Cor 14:26 KJV
How is it then, brethren?
when ye come together,
every one of you
hath a psalm,
hath a doctrine, (Teaching.)
hath a tongue,
hath a revelation,
hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
Is this what Institutional pastors and elders promote?
For the equpping of the saints? For the work of the ministry?
In “Today’s Corrupt Religious Systems?”
NOPE…
Yes – In the Bible, when ye come together,
ALL can, and are expected to,
“Participate.”
NOT listen to just one and,
“Regurgitate”
When you listen to “a special one”
“Pontificate.”
Eventually that “special one” thinks they have permission to
“Bloviate.”
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Mwcamp,
As we sit in our comfortable houses, enjoying the best of everything, the heart of God bleeds for millions of souls that are suffering around the world. We see a glimpse of God’s heart in Ezekiel 34:
God is very angry at the shepherds. For using the title shepherd? Nope. For not taking care of the flock. Because they have NOT:
1) Strengthened the weak
2) Healed the sick
3) Bandaged the hurt
4) Brought back the ones that wandered off
5) Looked for the ones who were lost
6) Nourished the sheep
Feel the anger pouring out of God’s heart as He blasts the shepherds for not doing any of that. “Instead you have treated them cruelly.” Ezekiel 34:4(GNT)
Now look at verse 5: “So they were scattered because there was no shepherd. When they were scattered they became food for every wild animal…..no one looked for them.” Eze 34:5-6 (GW)
Notice:
#1—Shepherds are needed.
#2—Shepherds are supposed to be diligently searching to find and help those who have been scattered and hurt.
#3—God gets really upset at shepherds who rule with violence and cruelty (verse 4).
Now in many previous conversations with Amos, I gave several examples of people who fulfilled the call of God on their lives outside of the institutional church. There are many parts of the body of Christ—some inside—some outside the institutional church. One part of the body can’t say to the other part, “I have no need of you.” (1Cor 12:21)
Look at Amy Carmichael who served fifty-five years in India without any breaks. She is remembered for rescuing many little children from the horrors of temple prostitution and successfully lobbing India to pass laws against temple p. If anyone is interested, her actual writings are available for free as Kindle downloads on Amazon. They are a fascinating glimpse into what life is really like doing the work of the ministry. Very gritty and sometimes horrifying. For example, she tells the story of a teenager who gave their life to the Lord and then was poisoned by their own family for bringing shame on the family by leaving their caste. Amy explained that the cultural identity took considerable pride in their caste system. To change religions was considered rejecting the caste position. (Note: Amy Carmichael was also what inspired Jim and Elizabeth Elliott to take the Gospel into the remote jungle.)
Another example is Gladys Alyward who felt called to the mission field but no one would support her. She was actually rejected by Christian organizations. So she worked as a maid, saved up her own money and bought a train ticket to China. On the way there, she told her story to the couple sitting next to her on the train. They gave her cash. That cash saved her life shortly afterward when she had to bribe her way out of a dangerous situation. Then when she arrived in China, she rescued over a hundred children from a brutal life on the streets, giving them a loving home. Again no one was funding her so there were times that she had to knock on doors and beg the villagers to help her feed the children that she was caring for. That should have never happened. She should have had the resources she needed.
Today there are many other people around the world doing the work of the ministry. Does anyone here object to them having the resources they need to help others?
This whole discussion is about how God gives gifts and talents to all of us. We are all needed to function in our calling to help others. Some of you are called to be mechanics, accountants, teachers, truck drivers, and yes, pastors too.
Does anyone get offended that doctors use the title doctor? When you need major surgery, do you want a doctor who has to work full time as a mechanic to pay the bills and only practices medicine on the weekend? Of course not. You want a doctor with twelve years of education and thirty years of full time experience doing that exact type of surgery. What’s wrong with them having a title or getting paid for the work they do?
Mwcamp, are you saying that it’s ok for pastors to receive a salary but if they teach tithing—that automatically makes them a wolf? Of course, there’s no place for high pressure sermons guilting people into giving large sums. But are you saying that the very act of teaching tithing itself is unfairly pressuring people?
Jesus taught us the NT model of those who preach the Gospel receiving their living from it. We’ve already covered those verses in our previous discussions, so I won’t repeat all that—unless you guys want me to make the full case.
Next—I’m going to respond to the other comments.
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On 10-8-17 at 10:49AM Amos wrote
“Biblical pastors do NOT take the Title, pastor.
Or shepherd. Or leader. Or reverend.”
No Amos, you are wrong. There’s no verse that says, “Thou shalt not use the title pastor!”
The titles pastor, evangelist, teacher come from the very pages of Scripture. How can you say that it’s not Biblical to use the very titles that the Bible uses?
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On 10-7-17 at 2:26PM, Amos wrote:
“Titles become idols”
“Leaders become deceivers”
“Titles will be used to Control and Manipulate the brethren.”
Then Amos quotes Jeremiah 50:6 “Their shepherds have caused them to go astray.”
That’s a really important verse warning us about the wolves. However, Amos is taking that verse out of context.
Logical fallacy: Because some leaders have led people astray—therefore all leaders will automatically lead people astray. That there’s no possible way to be a leader without leading people astray.
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Amos,
No one remembers everything they said on social media. It’s ok if you’ve forgotten some of our previous conversations. Here’s what happened:
On Jan 24, 2017 at 9:32AM
Amos said: “a good pastor would NEVER receive tithes.” Therefore any pastor who teaches tithing “That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.”
Well, then that would be calling Jesus a wolf, because Jesus taught tithing in the NT.
Now Amos is welcome to change her mind as many times as she wants. But she keeps denying her own words. Twice on this thread—Amos has said that using the title pastor automatically makes you guilty of taking God’s name in vain. In the 10:03AM comment she actually repeats it again and then again denies she said it!
Amos wrote:
“When you Take the position of shepherd……When you Take the “Title,” of shepherd……You are Taking the name of the Lord thy God, in Vain.”
By that crazy logic—then Pastor Jeff Crippen would be guilty of taking God’s name in vain simply because he uses the word pastor! Does Amos want him to lie about the work he does? Should he say he’s a mechanic, because Amos won’t let him use the word pastor?
Now this comment is hard to write, because I like Amos. She’s got a brilliant mind with lots of ideas and she’s got big heart for helping people, frequently volunteering her time to help others.
Thus I was really surprised when Amos became condescending in her 10-8-17 at 8:26AM comment by saying that I need her forgiveness simply for holding her accountable for her own words. Let’s get one thing straight—if Amos is going to keep saying crazy things then we are going to keep holding her accountable for her comments.
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Avid Reader – I greatly admire your patience! What you are saying is true.
In quite correctly rejecting ravenous wolves, A A L is simultaneously rejecting
‘elders’ (or whatever you like to call them) who are appointed in the church by the Holy Spirit. Let’s just say I don’t think the answer to this problem will be obtained through reasoning.
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KAS, the word ‘elder’ in the bible simply means older. As in, “he is older than his wife”.
It’s not a religious term. Elders exist amongst God’s people. They’re not religious leaders they are godly OLDER (literally- elders by age) who have proven themselves to be an example to follow. I know many godly elders who have no religious leaders. I personally identify them as a mature and godly person worthy of seeking out for counsel when required.
They don’t need a salary to serve God’s people.
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Salty,
That throws Ephesians 4:11 and 1Cor 9 right out the window.
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Salty,
When you need major surgery, do you want a doctor who has to work as a mechanic full time to pay the bills because he can’t take a salary or use the title doctor? Of course not. Why does no one get offended that mechanics receive a salary to change your oil, but the most important thing to the heart of God—spreading the Gospel that Jesus came to set the captives free—people get so offended that anyone actually needs to provide for their family!
How could Gladys Alyward have worked a full time job to pay the bills on the mission field? Should Amy Carmichael have gotten a full time job because you don’t want her to have a salary? If Pastor Jeff Crippen didn’t have a salary from his church, then he would have to go back to being a police officer. That means sixty hours a week doing police work that wouldn’t be devoted to the work of the ministry.
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Who do you think wants to cut off all the resources from spreading the heart of God? Not God.
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The reason why no one gets offended that paramedics get a salary to treat physical injuries but people get really offended at the thought that someone doing the work of the ministry (helping the broken hearted and emotionally/spiritually wounded) is because we are valuing treatment of physical needs as more important than emotional/spiritual needs.
We need doctors to treat our physical illnesses. Yes, we can get emotionally healed all by ourselves, but it really helps to have trained professionals to treat depression and help bind up spiritual wounds. (By the way, Daisy did a great blog post a while back about the important of professionals for treating depression.)
We believed Jane when she described feeling the call of God to be a pastor. Now it sounds like she’s working as a counselor or working towards being a professional counselor. That’s such an important career. Why can’t she have a salary for helping those that need it the most? Should she only be able to get that salary from the secular world? Why do people get so offended at the thought of her getting that salary from the body of Christ?
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Correction—Meant 2Cor 9 earlier
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With respect, If Jane felt the ‘call’ to BE a “Pastor” (pastor) she would already be gifted with the skills required and would already be doing the work of one.
No one becomes a pastor of their own will. God gifts his people for service and they respond accordingly.
I am well aware of both Eph and Cor and in no way view them as religious professions.
I preach the gospel therefore I am an evangelist by definition.
I guide younger believers in the faith therefore I act as a shepherd (pastor).
I teach younger believers in the ways of God therefore I am a teacher.
I do not command a salary to do the above. I do not call myself Evangelist/Pastor/Teacher (insert my name here) but here we are.
As Paul said, “follow my example”.
Did Paul receive a salary to serve?
No he clearly did not. He worked willingly with his hands.
So why do today’s religious professionals not heed Paul’s exhortation to “follow my example”?
Selective obedience isn’t it?
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Avid. I have no issue suppprting people who travel abroad to spread the gospel.
That is not the same as a man who usurps the Lord Jesus Christ’s title of ‘poimen’ Shepherd ‘Pastor’ to ‘serve’ (ironically for money).
If they’re getting paid then it’s really not service is it? It’s a job.
I just don’t see any New Testament example of a man leading a congregation in a purpose built meeting hall called The ‘Pastor’ and getting a salary to do so.
This comes from Constantinian Christian Religion and has nothing to do with serving Jesus Christ and doing good.
It’s been many years since I’ve been in a religious institution setting and yet magically here I am able to serve the brethren in my city. I spend much time talking with, praying with and serving others. It costs nothing but my time. I don’t charge a fee to ‘serve’.
If I am able to do this then I see no reason for the multi million dollar religious institutions.
I’m sure Mr Jeff Crippen is a nice guy.
Is there any reason why he cannot follow Paul’s example and work a secular job? And use his gifts in his community in his own time and out of his own home?
If the rest of us can manage it why not a salaried religious professional?
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Salty,
Paul made the case for resources to spread the Gospel in 1Cor 9. He wrote,
“No soldier ever serves in the army and pays his own salary.”
Then Paul said:
“These aren’t just my own thoughts. God’s law says the same thing.”
“Surely you know that those who work at the Temple get their food from the Temple.”
“It is the same with those who have the work of telling the Good News. The Lord has commanded that those who tell the Good News should get their living from this work.”
1Cor 9 (ERV)
Do soldiers have to work full time as restaurant waiters because they can’t take a salary for their service in the military? That’s the case that Paul made. Then Paul says that he has the right to draw financial support but he chose not to use that right.
Salty, you are arguing that Paul never had that right in the first place. Check the text again.
Was Jesus working as a carpenter to pay the bills during the three years that He traveled and ministered to the hurting?
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Salty,
Would you choose a doctor for major surgery who works full time as a mechanic and only practices medicine on the weekend? Of course not. You would want a doctor with thirty years of full time experience doing the exact surgery that you need.
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Avid Reader
Seems we have a disagreement…
You’re correct…
“No one remembers everything they said on social media.”
You write @ OCTOBER 7, 2017 @ 11:50 AM
“2) Amos believes that any pastor who receives tithes is a wolf. That means Amos is calling Pastor Jeff Crippen a wolf simply because he receives a salary for his work.”
I replied to that comment @ OCTOBER 7, 2017 @ 1:46 PM… by saying…
NOPE… I never said that…
xxxxxxx
But, this morning I see you wrote @ OCTOBER 8, 2017 @ 8:12 PM…
No one remembers everything they said on social media. It’s ok if you’ve forgotten some of our previous conversations. Here’s what happened:
On Jan 24, 2017 at 9:32AM
Amos said: “a good pastor would NEVER receive tithes.” Therefore any pastor who teaches tithing “That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.”
“Well, then that would be calling Jesus a wolf,
because Jesus taught tithing in the NT.
Now Amos is welcome to change her mind
as many times as she wants.
But she keeps denying her own words.
xxxxxxx
That looked, and felt, quite damming at first reading.
Was I guilty? Did I really say that???
That way?
So, I went back and checked the WHOLE comment…
You left out quite a bit of the comment.
I’ll stick by my original answer…
Because I never said, what you said I said…
The way that you said I said it. 🙂
NOPE… I NEVER said that… That way…
Here’s the context of the way it was written…
xxxxxxx
You asked @ JANUARY 12, 2017 @ 7:45 AM…
“Is it a sin for “good pastors” to receive tithes?
I believe “a good pastor” would NEVER ask you to give tithes.
And, “a good pastor” would NEVER receive tithes.
Because, in the NT, Jesus, taught His Disciples
There is NONE GOOD but “ONE,” that is God. Mat 19:17.
xxxxxxx
So, the Good Shepherd, “Jesus,” would NEVER ask you to give tithes.
I’ll repeat the WHOLE comment. 😉
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Avid Reader
Avid Reader
Here is the WHOLE comment for your reading pleasure.
xxxxxx
Avid Reader
I have NO problem with any believer giving MONEY.
Giving MONEY to a ministry… Giving MONEY to people…
I encourage believers, often, To Give Freely. – But…
To ask Jesus first – where to give this MONEY. – Yes??? 🙂
If Jesus has asked you to give MONEY to pastor Jeff?
Or anyone who has taken the Title/Postion, pastor/leader/reverend?
A Title that does NOT exist in the Bible for one of His Disciples.
Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.
If Jesus asks you to give 10%, from your wages, MONEY…
To pastor Jeff? Or any pastor?
Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.
But, If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to “Tithe”???
Give 10%? From wages? Weekly? To a “local church?”
As a requirement? From the Bible?
That is NOT in the Bible. That is NOT the Truth.
That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.
Whether That pastor knows it or NOT.
That is what “Today’s Corrupt Religious System” often teaches. 😦
You asked @ JANUARY 12, 2017 @ 7:45 AM…
“Is it a sin for “good pastors” to receive tithes?
I believe “a good pastor” would NEVER ask you to give tithes.
And, “a good pastor” would NEVER receive tithes.
Because, in the NT, Jesus, taught His Disciples
There is NONE GOOD but “ONE,” that is God. Mat 19:17.
And, Jesus, called Himself, The Good Shepherd. John 10:11-14.
And, Jesus, called Himself, ”The “ONE” Shepherd.” John 10:16
xxxxxxxxxx
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
THEIR shepherds have caused them to go astray,
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray;
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Avid Reader
Thanks for reminding me of that comment…
After re-reading it – I actually thought it was a reasonable comment. Yes?
But – That’s the forth time you mis-quoted me…
Made a false statement attributed to me…
Was wondering…
Why? would you take one sentence… from one part of the comment…
And, add it to another sentence… from another part of the comment…
And, leave out a whole bunch of stuff…
And have it say something I never said or intended?
xxxxxxx
Here’s what you wrote…
On Jan 24, 2017 at 9:32AM
Amos said: “a good pastor would NEVER receive tithes.” Therefore any pastor who teaches tithing “That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.”
Here’s how Amos wrote ,“That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.” First…
This sentence from the comment comes “First.”
“Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.”
“But, If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to “Tithe”???
Give 10%? From wages? Weekly? To a “local church?”
As a requirement? From the Bible?
That is NOT in the Bible. That is NOT the Truth.
That pastor is a Wolf and a Con Artist.
Whether That pastor knows it or NOT.”
xxxxxxx
Here’s how Amos wrote ,““a good pastor would NEVER receive tithes.”
This sentence of the comment comes “Second.”
I believe “a good pastor” would NEVER ask you to give tithes.
And, “a good pastor” would NEVER receive tithes.
Because, in the NT, Jesus, taught His Disciples
There is NONE GOOD but “ONE,” that is God. Mat 19:17.
And, Jesus, called Himself, The Good Shepherd. John 10:11-14.
And, Jesus, called Himself, ”The “ONE” Shepherd.” John 10:16
xxxxxxx
See, I was quoting Jesus, saying, “There is NONE GOOD but “ONE,”
So, I’m-a-thinkn, there are NO “good pastors” according to Jesus.
Was wondering…
Why? would you take one sentence… from one part of the comment…
And, add it to another sentence… from another part of the comment…
And, leave out a whole bunch of stuff…
And have it say something I never said or intended?
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For those interested in research reading on the unresolved problem patterns of Tullian Tchividjian:
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2016/03/18/resource-bibliography-on-system-issues-related-to-the-tullian-tchividjian-situation/
I’ve added a few new article links at the very bottom, in “Chronology: 2017” section.
To get the best historical context, I’d suggest tracking the following sources from three different angles. Each blog or author has posted a series of articles over a period of years.
News articles: Leonardo Blair (along with a few other authors) at the Christian Post.
Survivors’ personal narrative accounts plus analysis of new details in the situation as they emerge: Spiritual Sounding Board.
Theological and pastoral analysis: Tony Arsenal and his Reformed Arsenal blog.
There are many other sources listed, but if you follow through the series by each of those three, it shows significant evidence of long-term brokenness and sin patterns that are ongoing.
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Avid, I know 1 Corinthians 9 well. Grab a pen and carefully read the first 1-5 verses.
Who is the chapter about?
Paul or men who run businesses in purpose built temples wrongly called temples?
What was Paul’s function?
A messenger “apostle”?
What did he do?
He travelled to preach the gospel.
Who does this today?
Missionaries.
1 Corinthians 9 is about first century apostles ‘messengers of the good news’.
This chapter has nothing to do whatsoever with men who call themselves ‘The Pastor’ and command salaries to serve.
If anyone wishes to use this chapter to justify the Pastor thing… it’s prooftexting at best.
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Avid, I am a full time follower of Jesus Christ with 17 years experience.
Am I qualified to offer guidance, teach and/or provide counsel?
Or do I need to presume myself to be gifted as a ‘Pastor’ and then command a following and people to subsidise my religious adventures? “In the ministry”.
What rot.
We are all called to serve. The word ministry simply means service. It’s not a special ‘thing’ for a special breed of believers who lack humility and command special status as God’s special chosen ones.
Religious leaders today are the modern day Pharisee.
Who is Diotrophes in the New Testament?
What makes him special?
He wanted the preeminence among them.
Sound familiar?
Who has the preeminence amongst the people of God today?
Jesus?
No.
It’s the Special One who calls himself The Pastor.
Avid…
The word Pastor is the same Greek word as Shepherd in the New Testament.
You would do well to look up every single reference to Shepherd and ask this question:
“Who is the Shepherd/Pastor in the New Testament?”.
I’ll give you a head start…
His name starts with J.
And regarding the Doctor with years of experience.
If I have need of an elder for counsel… I go to my other half’s father. He is a godly older man and he is elder to me.
I don’t need a salaried religious professional for wise and godly counsel.
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Avid, when believers read Ephesians and see “he gave some apostle, evangelists, pastors and teachers…” they think of the guy on TV who is a salaried religious professional.
They think of the guy who calls himself Dr Professor of Theology who teaches at a Seminary.
They think of people who hold seminars and charge money for delegates to come and have their ears tickled.
But I suspect Paul was simply saying…
“He (God) gave some gifts to shepherd and guide and teach and proclaim the good news”.
Nothing to do with men giving themselves a title and elevating themselves to a status of Leader.
No.
I’ve been preaching Christ for years. I led kids to jesus at age 14.
I did the work of an evangelist.
Am I am Evangelist then?
Should I command money to keep doing it?
Should I start a website and proclaim myself as an Evangelist?
Or should I keep my head down and keep preaching Christ as God has gifted me to do?
Do you think God is impressed by men and women giving themselves religious titles and commanding money to serve the brethren when many of us are doing it for free?
And if we are doing it for free and are convinced by the Holy Spirit this is God’s way…
Who are those doing it for “filthy lucre?”
Who is left?
Who works for filthy lucre? Making merchandise of the sheep of God?
Who is left?
If it’s not me and you… who is making money off this work?
😊👍
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Avid Reader,
[Regarding Doctors] >>>What’s wrong with them having a title or getting paid for the work they do?<<<
Huh? What’s this have to do with Doctors? Of course that’s okay. We’re critiquing making spiritual gifts into religious titles and professions.
If they teach tithing to pay church salaries as commanded by God, yes. If they teach tithing as optional and voluntary to pay for a modern system of running an institution, no.
As above, only if they teach it as a commandment of God that you must tithe to pay for church salaries and expenses and ministries or else you are disobeying God and the Word. That is a false teaching.
Passages like I Cor. 9 are talking about itinerant workers who deserve to get paid by those whom they serve, which Paul incidentally, refused to accept such payment. This is not a foundation for a religious system of professional clergy paid by supposed tithes commanded in scripture.
Your examples of workers getting paid or supported by others is fine. It is but one model of voluntary giving, which Paul taught. But it does not support a Professional Class of religious occupations in an institutional church.
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Amos,
Thank you for reposting the full previous comment. That was very helpful.
Let’s see. First Amos says she’s not calling pastors wolves for teaching the concept of tithing. Then she reposts the full comment where she does call pastors wolves. I’m confused. Which is it?
Amos are you calling pastors wolves for teaching tithing? That’s a yes or no question.
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Salty – if elders were simply older people in the church, there would be little need for them to be appointed to a role requiring certain qualifications, mostly character.
Amos’ aversion to being subject to any kind of pastor runs into the buffers in 1 Peter 5 v 1 to 5. Jesus is the Chief Shepherd it is true, but he carries out this role using elders as under shepherds if you like. They are to ‘tend’ the flock – literally ‘shepherd’ the flock. And like it or not, the younger are to be subject to such men.
You don’t have to be fulltime to do this; conversely, someone who is employed by a church to carry out this function is not automatically a false pastor. It’s not always possible to pastor and carry out a fulltime job of work. You can only judge on a case by case basis.
I had a ‘mentor’ who did the job of pastor without the title. Later on he went into the ordained ministry of the Church of England. He certainly didn’t cease to be pastor, someone tending the flock, just because of his ordination. Ordination neither creates nor disqualifies someone from being a pastor.
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Meanwhile, one of the wolves who is the subject of this thread is gathering a new flock of naive sheep.
What can we do about this? How can we “Defend The Sheep” in Ft. Myers, Florida?
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KAS, if you’ve never done a word search on the word Elder in the New Testament then I encourage you do so. The word simply refers to an older person by age.
In regards to ‘appointing elders in every city’… the passage is quite simply stating to identify godly OLDER mature believers for the purpose of oversight and counsel.
I can think of many elders in my life who fit this description and not one has a seminary degree not a religious title of The Pastor.
Considering there are female elders identified in the New Testament it’s pretty clear it simply means ELDER.
Fancy that.
Elder means elder.
Than what?
That which is younger, perhaps?
Please do a word study.
Elders in indigenous communities are simply older folk used as counsellors and guides. Same thing.
Nothing to do with smells, bells and theological seminaries.
Me thinketh elders exist all over the place and theyr likely not the ones with the religious titles and salaries.
God is not an idiot.
He knows what his people need. If people feel a calling to a higher religious purpose (which involves accolades, a title and the illusion of spirituality) then I’d be questioning whether or not that person is gifted to serve in such a capacity or simply has a humility problem.
If you want to serve the sheep of Jesus it’s very possible to do so without a title and salary.
Been doing it for years.
Burn down the institutions
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KAS, think about it this way…
If Christians in the first and second centuries fellowshipped in their homes and not in purpose built facilities like we have today…
How would the godly mature elders function?
If they didn’t have salaries and physical office buildings is it at all possible they were just normal believers who existed and were sought out for counsel as required.
There’s a big difference between the elders we see who function in indigenous communities and the salaried religious professionals who call themselves pastors/elders today.
Huge difference.
Are indigenous elders salaried and given titles and buildings to counsel their folk?
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mwcamp, Amos, and Salty,
Thank-you for the intense Bible study here. I appreciate the Holy Scriptures taught in context for I personally, have not read a verse that substantiates the role of the pastor as being first and foremost. I don’t read, nor understand that the word “pastor” was used to delegate primal authority amongst the congregations of God’s people. When Jesus specifically said, “it shall not be so amongst you (pertaining to the lording it over of His people,” I believe He meant what He said and taught this to His disciples as following Him was radically different than the religious government of the Pharisees. The disciples and apostles did not come up with a separate religion of their own after Jesus death and resurrection, it was a continuance of the faith that Jesus taught……and He said, “after My departing, ravenous wolves will come in amongst you, deceiving the flock.”
And it sure didn’t take long for that to happen; immediately, men set themselves up as gods within the ekklesia, or called out ones, thus imitating the governmental template of the nations they lived in. Remember, Christianity is radically different as in the “priesthood of believers,” not the presidents (pastors), vice presidents (church boards), secretary of state (the elder board), the parliament (deacons and deaconesses), etc. The governmental hierarchal system is alive and well within the organized church system, effectively “disciplining and destroying those with whom have asked simple questions concerning the Holy Scriptures.”
Revelation 2:4-6
“Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works, or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of this place, except thou repent. But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.”
Could this word “Nicolaitans” be applied to the congregations of this day and age? Are we literally witnessing the carnage of the “pastors and church leadership” controlling the laity (Nicolaitan means “conquering the people,” anotherwords “leadership controlling the laity”)????? This is pretty serious to me, for Jesus Himself, reveals to John, “I (Jesus speaking) hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans.”
In today’s Christian industrial complex, I see the church governments operating in the same exact way as the governments of this world, lording it over as the Gentiles do. It is not radically different, thus we have great sin amongst the self proclaimed leadership as we are witnessing today with the laity worshipping pastors, reverends, priests, bishops, elders, or any other who places the lord it over title upon their being. And instead of Jesus, the Living Christ, being the one and only Mediator between God, the Father, and us, we are now led to believe that we must have pastors, priests, cardinals, bishops, elders, church boards, deacons and deaconesses, prayer chain leaders, praise band leaders, self proclaimed apostles (speaking of the New Apostolic Reformation heretics here), or any other ‘titled and entitled’ leader within the visible church…….as our mediator.
Jesus specifically said, there is only One Mediator between our Father, and us, and that is through Him. Those who truly serve Him are not nor never will be first as we see on this earth today, but instead, they are last, serving and ministering quietly and in peace, never lording it over anyone, but peacefully persuading others of their faith in Jesus Christ alone for the salvation of souls.
Salty, yes, Alleluia and Amen! Yes! Yes! Yes! The work of a missionary, an evangelist or any other gifting from God, the Holy Spirit, never required a title, just a humble spirit in loving others to the Lord. Great testimony sister!
Just sit back and ponder the state of Christianity…..how many are making the big bucks selling crosses, books, T-shirts, cd’s/dvd’s of their “great(?)” sermons, or any other paraphernalia with the Lord’s Name on it??? Or how about that Christian comedian that comes to town, gives a hilarious performance then shares the “gospel” near the end with an alter call too-boot, pocketing a fifteen grand fee on his way out the door, oh, wait a minute, he pocketed more than that because that “famous table near the door was filled to overflowing with his books, tapes, T-shirts, and other junk using the Lord’s name as a selling point” was “selling” like hotcakes!
Christianity for the most part here in the west, has become big business, which I believe, Jesus never intended it to be for I believe it is taking the Lord’s Name in vain for personal gain, not that Christ may increase, and we may decrease.
I am reminded of Psalm 23 over and over again where our LORD tells us who He is and what He does for us…..”The LORD is my Shepherd, I shall not want, He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside still waters. He restoreth my soul; He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake.”
So exactly Who leadeth?
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Avid Reader
You Write…
“I’m confused. Which is it?”
Amos are you calling pastors wolves for teaching tithing?
That’s a yes or no question.
xxxxxxx
Here is what I believe about MONEY that ALL belongs to God.
“I encourage believers, often, To Give Freely. – But…
To ask Jesus first – where to give this MONEY. – Yes??? 🙂
If Jesus has asked you to give MONEY to pastor Jeff?
Or anyone who has taken the Title/Postion, pastor/leader/reverend?
A Title that does NOT exist in the Bible for one of His Disciples.
Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.
If Jesus asks you to give 10%, from your wages, MONEY…
To pastor Jeff? Or any pastor?
Please, do what Jesus asks you to do.
But, If that pastor says, you, Avid, are required to “Tithe”???
Give 10%? From wages? Weekly? To a “local church?”
As a requirement? From the Bible?
That is NOT in the Bible. That is NOT the Truth.
”That pastor” is a Wolf and a Con Artist.
Whether ”That pastor” knows it or NOT.”
xxxxxxx
Jeremiah 22:22 KJV
The wind shall eat up ALL “Thy Pastors,”
(wind = ruwach = breath, mind, spirit.)
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
THEIR shepherds
have caused them to go astray,
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray;
BUT are now returned to
the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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