How has this election affected you as a Christian?

Christianity, Presidential Election, Evangelical Leaders Influence

 

 

How has this election affected you as a Christian? This has been the most difficult election I’ve ever seen in my life. As a Christian, I found it difficult to support either Republican or Democratic candidate for a variety of reasons. There were certain issues that greatly concerned me about both candidates, yet I felt compelled to do my civic duty and vote for the person whom I believed could best do the job of President — but even then, I still was not 100% settled with my vote.

My best friend and I were at odds. We got in many heated debates by phone, text, messaging, but neither one convinced the other to vote for the other side. Thankfully, this friend and I go back many years and we disagree on a lot of topics, but our love and respect for each other allows us to remain close friends.

But on Facebook, I have seen people lose friendships because of this kind of heated debating. It’s very sad.

Another issue that has disturbed me greatly is church leaders using their pulpit or platform to endorse candidates and cloak it with spiritual verbiage to imply that God would want His people to vote a particular way. We saw this from Wayne Grudem, Thabiti Anyabwile, John MacArthur, and others. I am uncomfortable with this because they are using their power and influence to steer people to their thoughts and ideas, rather than encouraging people to use their own critical thinking skills and independent thought.

Yesterday, I saw a friend confess on Facebook that she voted a certain way. She felt the need to justify her vote for Trump, but was now afraid about what that might mean for the future.

Each of us had our own reasons for voting the way we did. Some people are single-issue voters, and that issue is often pro-life within the Christian community. I used to always vote pro-life because to me it said that if someone valued life in the womb, they would obviously value life outside the womb. I’m not so sure I believe that anymore after seeing my loud and obnoxious ex-pastor standing on the street corner yelling at pregnant women when they enter an abortion clinic, yet he failed to provide consistent and real help to a woman with children who was suffering ongoing domestic violence in her home. His actions showed that he was only selectively pro-life and I cannot stand that kind of hypocrisy.

One key issue I had to emotionally contend with was Trump’s misogynist comments and especially the crude words that were released about how he gloated about sexually pursuing married women, kissing them or “grabbing their pussy,” without consent. Although I have never experienced something like that, many women have, and it dawned on me that every time these sexual abuse survivors looked at Trump, those tapes of his words could play in their minds and cause emotional harm as they relive their own sexually abusive experience.

The same could also be said about looking at Hillary Clinton. I think some sexual abuse survivors could look at her and how it was reported that she treated her husband’s sexual abuse survivors. Survivors could also have difficulty knowing that Bill Clinton was once again in the white house (not as president, this time). So, either candidate could bring back unwanted memories to the forefront for the next four years. In both cases, women were devalued and used for men’s sexual gratification.

There are many reasons why Christians are upset this election season. After seeing quite a few posts on Facebook telling others to stop talking about the election, I posted this on my own Facebook wall:

If you are telling someone who voted for HRC to suck it up and let it go, and quit complaining about the election results, that is not helpful. This was a very emotional and intense election with mud slinging in all directions.

If you are unable to allow someone to express their anger or sadness on their own Facebook wall as they grieve their loss, just unfollow them for a few days.

Even better, instead of telling them to stop, why not ask them what this loss represents for them. Come into their world and attempt to understand. You may find you actually agree with their perspective after hearing their story. This is a time to stop, listen, and try to understand each other as we move forward. That is how we can best unify and help get our country on the right track.

One of the reasons why my good friend and I have respect for each other is that we have dug deep to understand the reasons we voted for our candidates. It makes sense, based on what is most dear to her, why she voted the way she did. I can respect her decision, but certainly don’t have to agree with it. Neither one of us is right or wrong, we just made the best choices we could based on what was most important to us.

There are a lot of feelings going around: uncertainty, excitement, anger, sadness, etc. I’d like to use this post as an opportunity to air what you’ve been feeling about this election. Have you been upset about Christian leaders telling you how to vote? How has Christian evangelicalism influenced the vote this election? How are you feeling about your vote now that it is all said and done? Do you have regrets?  What are your fears and concerns? Are you satisfied with the results?

Now, this is not going to be a place to debate politicians. I will be very heavy handed with the delete button if I see it go that direction. I mainly want to provide this opportunity to share from your heart your feelings and concerns because I think there are a lot of people who have not had a safe place to do so.

 

I like what Mr. Rogers said about emotions and expressing them, and that is why I decided to allow this post on a normally taboo subject here.

 

 

Let’s be sure to show each other kindness and respect and try to understand where people are coming from in your responses.  Thank you!

248 comments on “How has this election affected you as a Christian?

  1. Ed,
    Your comments shed light on the twisted thinking of a portion of tRump supporters. I don’t believe what you are trying to imply about most men. . .they are not all overgrown, hormonal teenagers as you suggest. It’s an insulting and demeaning thing to say, among all the other insulting, demeaning suggestions you have made.

    But look – keep talking; it’s really quite insightful.

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  2. So, here are two huge issues I have–

    Any public leader who refers to any one as a “fat pig” is most likely not worthy of public office. Even politicians I don’t agree with usually don’t talk about others that way (notice that i said “usually”, not always). However, Trump falls into the category of “usually” when it comes to inappropriate comments.

    The disabled person was made fun of because he was disabled-pure and simple. There are laws on the books that call that kind of behavior harassment and he would have been in danger of losing his job in any workplace. I have been a disabled person in the workplace my entire life, and I have no problem calling people out when I feel that I am being discriminated or belittled because I get around with a walker. It’s only happened a couple of times on the job, but if you are permanently disabled, you know why you are being called out for the wrong reason.

    I’m not a huge fan of Trump or Hillary. However, although Hillary is far from perfect, she doesn’t usually (notice, the use of usually) take cheap shots at people like Trump does. I think that the the next four years are going to be known as the presidency of buffoonery, although I hope I am wrong.

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  3. Linn,,

    Both candidates have said retaliating rhetoric,, Secret Service have been told to F’ off when Clinton was first lady,, Biden dropping the F’ bomb on camera after Obama stuffs the ACA down our throats.

    Clinton’s cussing the Joint Chiefs of Staff for showing up in the White House wearing their uniforms, to brief the President.

    Then there is the Clinton Foundation accepting millions of dollars from Middle East nations, that hate Israel, Christians and abuse women far worse than the laws would ever allow in America. If Trump was accepting millions these countries you wouldn’t be turning a blind eye.
    These nations were buying access and influence into our National Security,, I’m not sure how the Clinton’s are going to pay them back, now that she isn’t President.

    I’m sure the rhetoric coming out of Trump’s mouth with subside,, he’ll have hiccups.

    Many of us didn’t like any candidate, but when it comes to Capitalism over Socialism,, I’m picking Capitalism.

    The poor become poorer in a Socialistic Society,, leaving less hope for an abused poor woman to escape abuse.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Since many evangelicals viewed Trump as God-appointed to lead our nation back to Him, I believe the overseer verses apply. Even simply talking about a person of character leading as POTUS, Trump fails on all Biblical accounts. Still, many Christians ignored all that, claiming God had and has His hands on Trump. Disgusting. The way Trump has been fawned over and defended, is the exact same way celebrity pastors are treated. The way protestors and critics are demeaned and shut down, is the exact same way those who question the stats quo in most churches are demeaned and silenced. This whole election and continued outcome, is spiritual abuse on a national level.

    Trump had no stated policies, is reneging on many of his campaign promises already, and is turning the office into a nepotism-based position.

    As far as politics go, I’m a moderate. I don’t necessarily disagree with everything Trump has said, and I don’t necessarily agree with everything Hillary has said. I agree the homeless are not necessarily the victims media portrays them as, and I take a somewhat hard line towards drug abuse. Afghanistan and China are where much of heroin and fentanyl are coming from, in addition to Mexico. I live in the acclaimed heroin capital of the USA! Still, there are a lot of complexities in these matters. I’m writing a piece on it (homelessness) actually, if you have specific sources to point me to.

    As regards your other statements about sailors and construction workers, I believe you. Thank God not all, or even most, men are in those fields. There is only one man I personally know who would talk like that and think it funny. Most men I know and love are nice.

    How do you expect someone to lead a nation, when he no affection or respect for those (or most of those) he is supposed to lead? And now it certainly seems that Trump is not even taking his new role seriously. Sleep at Trump Tower on weekends? This is not a CEO position.

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  5. Loura,,,

    I don’t necessary think Hillary is called by God to be our President either.

    She’s not a nice person either. with some pretty despicable insults coming out of her mouth,, her soul.

    Her economic views, completely ignored the needs of much of the job starving working class in the rust belt, who rallied for Trump, needing better jobs than flipping burgers at a McDonald’s.

    And considering them as “deplorable’s”. The media even insinuating it is the uneducated stupid working class that supported Trump.

    “Deplorable” means,, deserving strong condemnation.
    synonyms: disgraceful, shameful, dishonorable, unworthy, inexcusable, unpardonable, unforgivable; reprehensible, despicable, abominable, contemptible, execrable, heinous, beyond the pale

    Her and Trump’s Christianity is questionable,, so that leaves us with their economic views,, At least Trump didn’t accept any big donor money from Wall Street nor the Middle East, who again, Hates Christians, Israel, and treat women like second class who are powerless when they are beaten.

    Trump is a Capitalist, Clinton is an Ideologue, Progressive, Socialist,,,

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  6. Ed Chapman, I don’t know if you’re still reading, but it sounds to me like you’ve been through the wringer with an unwanted divorce and possibly finding out the nastiest way possible that your ex-wife had a substance abuse problem as well.

    I hope I’m dead wrong, and of course you owe me no particular response or anything, but if I should happen to be even a tiny bit correct, please make sure that you reach out to those who are your friends and get the help and encouragement you need. I’ve not experienced what i’m guessing you may have, but I’ve seen others go through it and it’s a rough road. Hang in there, and praying for you.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Ed, your last 2 comments that are still in moderation and actually perhaps some others are not falling within the framework of what I was looking for in this post. This is not a post meant to debate people or to criticize people for feeling emotional about the election results, or ridiculing people for needing “safe places.”

    If you are truly saying that men talk casually about sexually violating women in the locker room, you (they) are messed up. That is not normal.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Julie Anne,

    I hate to inform you, but it is normal. It isn’t called “Locker Room Talk” for no reason.

    It’s just that women are shielded from it. That’s why it’s in the locker room, or in the case of Trump…a bus.

    You may find it offensive, but in the real world, it happens. You may not like it, but it happens…and you know what? Women participate. Women objectify themselves.

    Ed

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  9. Julie Anne,

    And, I think that college kids needing safe spaces is extremely ridiculous. I just want to tell these kids to grow up and quit whining, because soon they are going to be in the “real world”. They won’t have a safe space in the real world. They have to learn how to fend for themselves.

    Remember that Geico commercial that starred that Drill Instructor acting as a therapist? What did he call his patient? A Jackwagon, wasn’t it?

    My sentiments exactly. Such woosies. Yes, I demean woosies, just as that drill instructor did. Then he hands the patient a box of tissues, asking, “need a tissue!”

    Of all the things to be devestated from, this is it? Really?

    Ed

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  10. Ed, I’ve been following the discussion re: locker room talk since Trump’s tapes were released. While the majority of men said that sex was discussed, 100% of the men said they had never participated nor heard any guy talking about sexually assaulting women without consent.

    But, please, let’s shift the conversation to the original intent.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. Ed,
    “And, I think that college kids needing safe spaces is extremely ridiculous.”

    This comment is part of the reason why you are in moderation. You show no respect for people who need to create safe emotional boundaries.

    Dude, every day I make decisions based on my emotional state. I’ve been wanting to do a post on Tullian for 2 days, but I know my limitations and need to make sure I take care of myself emotionally before delving into a blog post in which I have heard survivors’ stories and their tears. Are you going to ridicule me? Bring it, Ed.

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  12. To that response, I say: what is wrong with you, Ed, that you can joke about sexually violate women with other men. For you to act like this is normal is messed up. It is not normal. Talking about sex with your dude bros is not the same as talking about sexually violating women without their consent. I’m not going to entertain anymore of your comments on this topic. It’s off topic.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Julie Anne,

    No I would not ridicule you. There is a huge difference between your safe space, and the college safe space.

    There is a huge difference between your safe space and emotional distraught safe space based on this election.

    Therapy dogs?

    How about the PTSD that the military go thru, seeing their buddies head blown off? That is real distraught. Election results therapy? No, I don’t get the whining. They are not really traumatized as the military folks that have seen war.

    There is no comparrison to these spoiled brats, and you.

    I support what you do. Always have. Just don’t always agree with the crockadile tears coming from some people about Trump.

    Ed

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  14. Ed, I forgot the stats for sexual violence in college, but it is high. Trumps words triggered many women who have experienced sexual violence. It’s not whining. They experienced trauma and then they heard the President Elect say that he was fine with violating women sexually and kissing even married women without consent. You better believe that would and could cause emotional harm to survivors. I sobbed after the election because those women came to my mind first and foremost. As someone who has experienced PTSD and lived every day with imagined earthquakes, I understand how women could be severely triggered by this man. Please learn about PTSD. It extends far more than military. Your wording is horrible, Ed, by calling them spoiled brats.

    Liked by 1 person

  15. Julie Anne,

    You had said:
    “Ed, I forgot the stats for sexual violence in college, but it is high.”

    Ya, just like that fake Rolling Stone story about a woman gang raped that was debunked that had accused a few people of participating in the rape allegations.

    The story was totally false, and the female author of the article is in some serious hot water for that article. When asked why she did it, she stated something like, “Well, it’s a true story somewhere!”.

    No credibility. I’ll bet rape is lower than what Rolling Stone magazine leads us to believe.

    Ed

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  16. Julie Anne,

    You had said:
    “Education yourself”

    I think you meant, “Educate”.

    Now, who needs educated? LOL!!

    I will close by saying that not everyone who claims to be a victim is a victim. The distraught that I am seeing has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with that Hillary didn’t become the first woman president.

    Ed

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  17. Yes, I sure did mean educate. It doesn’t mean I need to be educated, it means I need to proofread my comments, but I’m too lazy.

    The large majority of victims who claim to be victims truly are. So it’s vitally important to believe them, first. If they are lying, they will have to deal with that later. All I know is that I told many adults, including police, and child welfare professionals about my physical abuse as a child and I was not believed. I know what it is like and I will never put someone through that if they reach out to me. I will listen and believe them first.

    I’ve been watching social media. I do not see people complaining that Hillary lost because she’s a woman, they are complaining about Trump and his words/behavior and wondering how he could be president and also how so many people voted for him knowing about his words/behavior. I have no idea what you are reading.

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  18. “Ya, just like that fake Rolling Stone story about a woman gang raped that was debunked that had accused a few people of participating in the rape allegations.

    The story was totally false, and the female author of the article is in some serious hot water for that article. When asked why she did it, she stated something like, “Well, it’s a true story somewhere!”.”

    Ed, while it’ IS true that the Rolling Stone article was debunked, that should NOT take away from the very real experiences of sexual assault victims. I admit that I struggle with the question, “what if they’re lying?”. But Julie Anne’s point above, that she told people about physical abuse and SHE wasn’t believed, is vital. It takes tremendous courage to report abuse and when you do and you’re not believed, what then? Where does a victim go after that?

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Julie Anne:

    You wrote: The large majority of victims who claim to be victims truly are.

    If this is true,, then the women that came out and said Bill Clinton had sexually and physically were assaulted who were more of Hillary’s verbal wrath, doesn’t suggest to me Hillary is a champion of victims. And if you were one of those woman who received Hillary’s verbal wrath, you’d probably see what they see.

    Hillary was not a nice woman and a lousy economic pick as we are going into a recession,, and Miley Cyrus did cry on TV saying Hillary “deserved” to be the first woman President..

    Personally I think this election was crawling with sexism by both men and women that had nothing to do with economic policy.

    To Liberals and Conservatives who are living comfortable enough, it probably was about Ideology,, to the Rural and Mid-West worker many of are women who are barely able to feed their families,, Hillary didn’t reach out to them..

    Her foundation, through the influence of her Secretary of State position manage to accumulate millions of dollars from Middle East Nations nations that hate America, Israel, Christians and treat woman like crap. These nations give money for influence. If Trump received funding from these nations MSNBC would’ve castrated him.

    She isn’t a champion of women,,

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  20. Here’s a story that the national media hasn’t picked up on. As I’ve watched people bicker about who was on the “right” side of this election, I find myself most impressed by a Muslim woman.

    As what had been a peaceful protest in Austin dissolved into sudden violence Sunday night, one image stood out: Amina Amdeen, a Muslim woman and Iraqi immigrant wearing a hijab, throwing herself in between her fellow protesters and a towering, impassive supporter of Donald Trump

    She threw herself in front of all 6′ 6″, 350 lbs of him to protect him!

    He called her a “hero of this night.” . .

    Amdeen, a University of Texas student in international relations who moved from Baghdad to Austin with her parents when she was 10, said Monday that the resistance to Trump must be nonviolent. . .

    Amdeen, breathless and crying in the moments after the incident, [Me: You know, just one of those “crybabies” that “Christians” talk about.] said she could only think back to her homeland.

    Peaceful protests were not possible in Baghdad, she said. There, she remembered from her childhood, one had to worry about falling bombs, political repression and deadly conflicts at the street level.

    That is what made the flurry of profanities and manhandling so upsetting to her in her adopted hometown of Austin and in the country where she is now a proud citizen, Amdeen said.

    http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/local/muslim-woman-shields-trump-supporter-as-march-ends/ns79q/

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  21. Julie Anne, it would only be the norm for ABUSERS of women, I was abused and raped and as my therapist and pastor would say, ONLY ABUSERS of women do this, NOT healthy Normal men, and there ARE Healthy Normal men

    Liked by 3 people

  22. Probably good to remember that what is “normal” is determined by culture. If we as a society decided there was nothing wrong with cannibalism and developed a taste for the “long pig”, that would make man-eating “normal”, but it would of course not make it right. Something of a silly question in my not humble enough opinion. :^)

    (of course, I “just say no” to cannibalism)

    I get the sadness among many regarding the results of the election here, but to put things in perspective, let’s not forget, again, who the head of Bill Clinton’s “bimbo eruptions” team was. Both major party candidates should give anyone who respects women a touch of nausea.

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  23. Ed, I’m not going to publish your last comment. I am not going to allow my blog to be a place where you get to tell us that it is normal for men to talk about sexually abusing women. Nope, not on my blog.

    And yes, I do believe men will be honest on the poll. I cannot see who voted or how they voted.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. I’m not on Twitter, Julie Anne, but if I were, I’d definitely vote “No”. Mind you, as a non-athletic geek, I’ve avoided locker rooms as much as possible for most of my life, so that might bias my answer somewhat. But in all my times there, I’ve never bragged about violating or molesting women the way Trump did.

    And, for what it’s worth (since it came up earlier): I’m white, single, middle-aged man. And I can’t imagine that I would’ve voted for Trump under any circumstances.

    Liked by 1 person

  25. Julie Anne,
    I’ve never had any locker room experience other than what was required for high school PE classes and that was in the distant past. Never had any use for jock culture or hot cars. In all that time I can recollect only one occasion in which one macho blow-hard made his aggressive sexual proclivities toward females known.

    But to answer your question?
    An emphatic NO, it is not normal. Men and boys who are taught by their fathers to respect women and girls will not engage in such talk, and if they do, it’s only because they are not strong enough to say no to the macho bullies who instigate it and insist that they be followed.

    Liked by 1 person

  26. It is my belief that the candidates we experienced in the last election, both of which have potty mouths stemming from their hearts, per God’s Word, are actually a mirror image of the cultural norm within our society. Language skills have been reduced to gutter speak as technology advances and the functioning mind of man digresses. Both candidates, as I have witnessed, used deplorable speech patterns that would feel right at home in the bar on a Saturday night. Have a few brews, and even the church elder becomes a verbal sexual pervert, much to the enjoyment of his male and female audience, laughing and having a high ole time. Sunday morning is a different story, however, as the halo is polished and the elder proceeds to read our Holy Scriptures out of the Bible during laity reading time. Jesus knows and He sees.

    Another topic that I have found so disgusting, it how our young ladies and young gents speak via their twitter accounts. The conversations, if I could even label them as such, are absolutely deplorable (proper use of the term here.) I had to figuratively pick my molars up off of the floor and cement them back in, for the language they used makes Donald and Hillary look like Sunday School teachers. And the way in which they speak to one another as so called friends, the language they use to speak against their enemies, and their wicked choice of words, really doesn’t give me much hope as an older woman. I am aghast, beyond broken. And these are the siblings of churched folks mind you, not those unchurched folk who are labeled as backslidden/lost.

    With that said, I believe the political candidates are a mirror image of the declining decency of our culture. It is a sad, sad day, when sex has replaced the political policies concerning the well being, general welfare of the people of this nation. I lost my health care this year, and to me, that is NOT caring about the general welfare of my family, including myself, but rather an abuse of power.

    And before I was saved in my mid twenties, I also believed that abortion was a right based on one’s individual circumstance, and voted for the abortion industry through the appropriate political party who defended these killing fields. After our LORD showed me His truth and I was saved because of Jesus Christ, my whole life changed due to reading His Word, empowered by the Holy Spirit. And because of Jesus, a little precious life was saved; my beautiful daughter. Oh, there is mercy and grace at the foot of the cross. I know this to be true.

    Jesus is still on His throne, saving those who are broken. The Glory belongs to God. ‘Nuff said.

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  27. “I don’t know how many construction sites folks here have been on, but if you have ever been on one, including sites that your electrical crew works on, to make sure that you have power, you would hear the same kind of talk. Until a woman walks on the scene, then the mouths are completely religiously pious, and polite.”

    It’s interesting, I asked my husband just last night if all men talk like Trump in private. He said, with great disgust, absolutely not. My husband has worked in construction all his life.

    Maybe the difference between off-color jokes / admiring women’s physical assets, and bragging about physically attacking women and getting away with it because you are rich and powerful, is too nuanced for some people?

    I personally understand many of the reasons people voted for Trump and that they have nothing to do with his outward behavior- the economy, jobs being lost to overseas, losing our health insurance, and many other such things. I can respect those things, but what I’d like to see among Christians who voted for him is a repudiation of the ugly, non-Christlike behavior, rather than trying to normalize it.

    1 Peter 2:12,17
    Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles… Honor all people

    Ephesians 4:29
    Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.

    If you are walking with Christ, you won’t be calling people “fat pigs” even if you find their behavior and views reprehensible. You can critique the ideas and attitudes you disagree with without resorting to ad-hominem attacks on people that degrade them as human beings.

    Liked by 1 person

  28. Shy !,,

    You are right when you wrote: “If you are walking with Christ, you won’t be calling people “fat pigs” even if you find their behavior and views reprehensible.”

    The same can be said that if you are walking with Christ, when you refer to other Christians and non-Christians as “Deplorable” if they don’t back their Socialist Ideology or accept millions of dollars from nations trying to purchase influence into US policy that hate Americans, Israel, Christians and treat woman as criminals who get raped.

    Actually Hillary, mentally abused a woman her husband raped,,

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  29. @Katy

    I lost my health care this year, and to me, that is NOT caring about the general welfare of my family, including myself, but rather an abuse of power.

    This is one issue I really wish someone could solve. We can’t afford Obamacare, and we make too much for Medicaid. I don’t believe any political side is ever going to solve this, because the medical field and in$urer$ are intere$ted in one thing only. I just hope we manage to stave off an incurable disease before our kids are old enough to take care of themselves.

    Anyway, I’m so sorry you’re in this current position.

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  30. @Shy1

    My husband has worked in construction all his life.

    So has mine. I somehow missed what you quoted. Some can be a little crass, though certainly not all of them. There are a lot of decent men who do manual labor for a living. I guess this is supposed to be the new proletariat stereotype?

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  31. BeenThereDoneThat,

    You are correct concerning the issue of health care for we are all in need at some point or other in our lives. Each individual is affected. I do not know of the issues concerning Medicaid or Medicare at this point, but am willing to learn.

    And thank-you for your compassion; it’s people like you that give me hope that there is goodness, love, and kindness left in some people. It is rare however. When I went to vote this year (reminder: I did not vote in the last two elections), I share our family’s plight with the three administrators working there (they are confessional Democrats), stating that the reason I am voting this year is because I lost my health care due to Obamacare……you could hear the elderly woman making an embroidered satin stitch in her dish towel. Utter silence; no empathy, no compassion, just plain nothing/silence. All three working there are neighbors and faithful church dwellers, and yet nothing. All of a sudden the oak design on their authentic wooden table became the focal point of our conversation.

    I too, pray that we can remain healthy and that our country remains safe for our children and grandchildren. We can still be thankful that we are indeed blessed by our LORD and that we know where our eternal home is…in heaven worshiping Jesus.

    God Bless you BTDT for you have blessed me this day.

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  32. God bless construction workers too…..you have to be smart as well as a hard worker to endure a labor intense living. More hope!

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  33. I originally didn’t plan on commenting to this thread, until I saw the last batch of comments.

    As to the OP: I did not like any of the candidates who ran. I am glad the elections are over, because I was so tired of the campaigning.
    Out of all the Presidential races I’ve been through in my 40 some odd years, this was the weirdest and nastiest.
    I did enjoy some of the SNL parodies of Trump and Hillary we got, and the “Black Jeopardy” election related skit on SNL (where Tom Hanks pretended to be a Trump voter). That was funny.
    (So we at least got some funny stuff out of it, such as this…
    _You Tube Link: SNL skit: Black Jeopardy_)

    I have family members who have served in the military.

    One of my family members was in the United States Navy for over 30 years. While this family member is an “old fashioned” sexist (i.e., he believes men are smarter than women – but he will be a gentleman and open doors for women, etc), he would NEVER talk about women the way Trump did, in such crass terms.

    My male military family members would be appalled by that kind of talk about women and don’t engage in it themselves.
    So please do not lump all military service members in with Trump. The occupation is not the problem.

    Which isn’t to say there are not problems with sexual harassment in the United States military, because there are, but not all military personnel are rapists or sexual abusers. Like any profession, you will find a fair share of bad apples within it, but not all of them behave or think that way.

    Liked by 1 person

  34. (part 1)
    The other reason I wanted to chime in on this thread were some of the attitudes I saw Ed espousing, which Shy1 addressed.

    Shy1 said,

    I personally understand many of the reasons people voted for Trump and that they have nothing to do with his outward behavior- the economy, jobs being lost to overseas, losing our health insurance, and many other such things. I can respect those things, but what I’d like to see among Christians who voted for him is a repudiation of the ugly, non-Christlike behavior, rather than trying to normalize it.

    That is one of the things I wanted to say.

    If Ed (who I assume voted for Trump?) wanted to vote for Trump because he thinks Trump would be better in some regards than Hillary (for economic reasons, picking a new SCOTUS, whatever), I don’t have a problem with that.

    But please don’t sit there and attempt to defend Trump’s sexist, demeaning comments and treatment of women.
    Certainly don’t try to rationalize Trump’s sexism by saying
    (1) all or most men behave in that way – and (2) ergo, that makes his sexist behavior or attitudes acceptable.

    Ed’s argumentation in that regard reminds me of preacher J D Hall arguing with Janet Mefferd months ago that supposedly all men, even Christian ones, secretly fantasize about raping little girls.
    (I am referring to this: _Mefferd Site Link: PREDATORS, DANGEROUS DEVIANTS & J.D. HALL_)

    I grew up over -hearing men or teen boys engaging in “locker room talk.” There is a difference between locker room talk and what Trump was saying in that one video and while between takes on his reality show (transcripts of which were published by the media).

    Locker room talk is more (I will try to keep this G to PG-13ish rated), something where a teen guy might say to his teen guy buddy,
    “I had really super hawt sex with Brenda Jones last Friday. Ooo-weee, she has nice big gazongas that I sure enjoyed feeling up, hunh huh, ha ha ha.”

    That is a guy crassly bragging about a consensual sexual conquest to his buddy (which is gross).

    What Trump did was brag about sexually assaulting women, the possibility of him being able to do so, or touching women sexually without the woman’s permission. That is not locker room talk. That is bragging about sexual assault. Please do not conflate or confuse the two things.

    Liked by 2 people

  35. (part 2)
    Trump’s recorded comments, where he bragged about being able to grab any woman’s genitals, were more akin to that college boy in the news months ago who raped a girl as she was blacked out from alcohol behind a dumpster.
    That little deviant’s father wrote a letter to the judge of the case begging for leniency because what his son did to the young lady was “just five minutes of fun and jollies, so don’t ruin my son’s life over that, Mr. Judge.”

    (I forget the exact phrasing the dad used in his letter, but it was something like equating rape to an itty-bitty, innocent mistake, or “boys will be boys”.)

    I don’t like Hillary Clinton either, Ed, but to water down what Trump did is not right. When you try to minimize or excuse Trump’s obnoxious, sexist comments about women, you sound more like the dad of the deviant college boy I just described in this post. If you are okay with that, that is very disturbing.

    Based on our previous chats in older threads regarding pastoral sexual abuse of women, I don’t think you understand what sexual assault is vs. consensual sex, or rape vs. adultery or rape vs. fornication. You seem determined to pin blame on the victims of these incidents.

    That the one writer of the Rolling Stone magazine rape article (about a rape at a college campus) may have been lying or making things up for her article does not invalidate that college rape is a very real phenomenon.

    Why would you even use that argument? That argument is totally lame.

    I am incredibly skeeved out and appalled that you would act like an M.R.A. (Men’s Right Activist) sexist and accuse women victims of just ‘making it all up.’

    Rape happens in our culture, and women are not to blame for being raped, either. I don’t care if a woman was out late alone, wearing a short skirt at the time of the attack, or was drinking beer at the time – no man has a right to touch a woman without her full, knowing consent.

    I see more a Pharisee-like preoccupation with rule-following from you Ed, than I do in Jesus’s extension on grace (also much black and white thinking; you don’t seem to see shades of grey).

    Not that I am a supporter of the “easy, cheap grace” that guys like pastor Tullian T. run around espousing.
    But there’s this other extreme, where there’s an obsession of sorts with law and rule following, which can result in a hard heart and in victim-blaming, and that turns me off too.

    Liked by 1 person

  36. (Part 2B)
    I said,

    Based on our previous chats in older threads regarding pastoral sexual abuse of women, I don’t think you understand what sexual assault is vs. consensual sex, or rape vs. adultery or rape vs. fornication. You seem determined to pin blame on the victims of these incidents.

    I wanted to add something about this. I just saw a headline recently about a European woman who went on a trip to some Middle Eastern nation (that is Islamic).

    This woman was gang raped (by two British guys, I have no idea what the guys religious beliefs were). The legal system there (which leans Muslim) charged her with adultery for having been raped, and I think they put her in jail for that.

    I found this. Link to a page on The Telegraph:
    _British tourist ‘gang-raped’ in Dubai faces jail for having sex outside marriage_

    When she reported the attack to police, the alleged victim was then herself charged with having sex outside marriage.
    In the United Arab Emirates, of which Dubai is the most populated city, it is illegal for married couples to have sex outside of wedlock.
    It is also against the law for a single person to have sex with someone who is married.

    (Similar headline from Daily Mail about another incident:
    “Dutch tourist in Qatar [Islamic nation] who told police she had been raped is fined £600 and given a suspended jail sentence for adultery – and the rapist gets 140 lashes” – June 2016)

    Is this something you agree with, Ed? Do you think rape victims should be charged with fornication/ adultery and/or thrown into jail for having been raped?
    Would you categorize rape as being purely “sex outside of marriage”?

    If you would answer ‘yes’ to one or more of those questions, are you comfortable knowing that your sexual ethics mirror those of Muslims more so than that of Christians or the Christian faith?

    Liked by 2 people

  37. (part 3)
    I hope it’s okay for me to post this.
    I do partially agree with Ed on one point. My estimation of most of those upset by Trump’s election, especially the ones who have been protesting on city streets about it, are by and large, not sexual abuse victims.

    Most of the protesters or people with a severe case of the weepies are, I take it, NON-abuse victims, who are college – aged kids, who are angry that their preferred candidate did not win. Most of the kids I’ve seen on TV news who are protesting appear to be middle-class white young adults.

    I’ve been a right winger my entire life and was a Republican for a very long time. When Clinton (Democrat) won his first term when I was in college, I was displeased for a short time. I was also unhappy with his second term win, and with both of Obama’s terms in office.

    However, I did not fall to pieces over his win at that time, when I was in college (or later), or need a therapy dog, or to play with Play-Doh. I still attended my college classes.

    People have a right to react anyway they wish to Trump winning.
    However, I find a lot of the responses to be very strange or to be an over-reaction that is not warranted. (Again, I am not talking about sexual abuse victims who say Trump’s comments about sexual harassment/abuse upsets them.)

    I’m talking about the “Average Jane and Average Joe” college kids, or 30-somethings, who are marching up and down city streets screaming that, “Trump is not my president!,” who are breaking car windows out of frustration and anger, or whose college professors cancel their classes or tests because they claim to be so upset by an election.

    I think where Ed went off the rails on this was to dismiss sexual abuse in general, or sexism, as it relates to Trump’s crude behavior or comments about women. There is no excuse for Trump’s sexism or sexual harassment of women, not even if you think Hillary was the worst of the two.

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  38. BTDT and Katy, we are in the same position with healthcare. We ended up going with Christian Healthcare Ministries and so far, they have been a godsend. Just thought I’d mention.

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  39. Regarding the triggering, I get it that the media portrayed Trump as the devil who had no chance, so I get that, but when people at places like Yale and Michigan Law need their coloring books and puppies despite having more than adequate intelligence to figure out the facts of the matter, I’ve got to wonder whether it’s not being “triggered” at all, but rather an old fashioned hissy fit. Their “triggering” leads them to destroy businesses and burn peoples’ vehicles? Seriously?

    Two hypotheses here; I can’t say for sure that either fits, but here goes. First, the phenomenon of “therapy dogs” suggests that a lot of those receiving therapy….may not have loved ones of their own to lean on and at times say “get a grip; all that happened is that we lost an election. The Cossacks are not coming to Anatevka.”

    Hypothesis #2 would be that a huge portion of the far left indeed has been the victim of felony sexual assault–far beyond the 25% of all young ladies and to a greater severity–and in that case, you’ve got to ask what is happening there? Does felony sexual assault lead to liberalism, or do left-liberals have high rates of the same, or what? There might be a story there, too.

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  40. Mark, I just don’t feel like bringing up Hillary’s issues is the same as repudiating Donald Trump’s issues. It’s like saying Trump is justified because the other side is rotten. Where does that end? I’m just saying, if you, or others, felt he was the best candidate there was, I can understand and accept that, but don’t gloss over the bad and don’t justify it. Be clear that you don’t support that part of him. Hold him accountable if/when he wrongs others.

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  41. @JulieAnne – “The large majority of victims who claim to be victims truly are. So it’s vitally important to believe them, first. If they are lying, they will have to deal with that later. All I know is that I told many adults, including police, and child welfare professionals about my physical abuse as a child and I was not believed. I know what it is like and I will never put someone through that if they reach out to me. I will listen and believe them first.”

    I have gone with the mantra of I choose to believe and risk being lied to than not believe and risk further harm to a person.

    Liked by 1 person

  42. Shy 1,,

    I’m not repudiating Trump’s issues,, but the author and most of the contributors of this thread is insulating Hillary’s recklessness which is irresponsible,, She is every bit as toxic.

    Trumps issues and behavior should anger us,,, but I think it is unfair and hypocritical to isolate Trump and insulate Hillary. She is no champion to women,, accept maybe abortion,, and those rights aren’t going away with Trump as President.

    I thought this thread is open to hearing the opinions from those of us that have experienced abuse.

    If I wanted a one sided opinion, I’d go watch MSNBC and watch Rachel Maddow or go to Fox and watch Sean Hannity, not Spiritual Sounding Board,, right now this thread is comparable to MSNBC

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  43. Bike Bubba, do you think that coloring books and therapy dogs are a sign of weakness? I just had my dark chocolate fix. It’s part of my self-care regimen. Do you see me as weak? I don’t care if you do. I wear big girl panties, but I’m just wanting to know why the putdowns when talking about triggering and the way people cope with stressors?

    The emotions have to go someplace. Wouldn’t you rather the destructive protestors color in their books, or have therapy dogs rather than harm people’s businesses, vehicles, property?

    I think in general, Christians are uncomfortable with feelings and the expression of them. How would people respond watching Jesus show anger or sadness in our world today?

    Liked by 2 people

  44. Carmen,,

    I except that Trump and Clinton were are only 2 choices,, I accept that Trump’s behavior is wrong,, there is nothing one sided admitting that,, I preferred Rand Paul.

    This thread is pro-Clinton,, I had no idea why, other than Trump is bad..

    Would you pick Ted Cruz or Rand Paul over Hillary Clinton,, the way this is going my impression is you’d choose Clinton.

    What about Cathy McMorris-Rogers over Clinton? Probably Clinton.

    I’d pick Elizabeth Warren over Clinton,,

    I have read your opinions,, and you have read mine.. I have had very little response from her foundation receiving millions from Middle Nations who hate America, Christians, Israel and abuse their women.

    By appearance you are insulating from your mind, the fact that she is as toxic as Trump,,

    She also lacks an Economic expertise to embrace capitalism as she is a Progressive with Socialist leanings.

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  45. Would you pick Ted Cruz or Rand Paul over Hillary Clinton,, the way this is going my impression is you’d choose Clinton.

    Just so you’re aware, Carmen is Canadian. She didn’t have a choice in the election. That doesn’t mean that many from the international community don’t have an opinion. Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said that “We look forward to working very closely with President-elect Trump, his administration, and with the United States Congress in the years ahead, including on issues such as trade, investment, and international peace and security,” Still, another Canadian friend indicated to me that the feeling was rather sober in her area following the US election. We have, I think, more impact that we should on the rest of the world. People are concerned.

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  46. JA, perhaps it would be instructive to see what Mayo has to say about PTSD, and whether what we see bears any resemblance to actual PTSD symptoms.

    http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/post-traumatic-stress-disorder/basics/definition/con-20022540

    Self-harm and individual aggression are signs; political action/group action is not. Definitely not blocking highways and burning other peoples’ cars and businesses. Moreover, one of the best treatments is controlled exposure–creating a “safe space” does not seem to help.

    My conclusion is that the vast majority of the protesters are not exhibiting symptoms of PTSD, and moreover that those trying to create a “safe space” for them are objectively harming them by rewarding their behavior.

    And, yes, in certain cases, it’s worth a bit of mockery. A lawyer who cannot handle the results of an election is like a surgeon or butcher who faints at the sight of blood. There is a point for sympathy for those who genuinely have a problem, and there is another point to say “you know, if you can’t handle this kind of thing, maybe law isn’t your calling”, or “let’s get some perspective here; neither the sexual harasser nor the enabler of a serial rapist has power to eliminate state laws against sexual assault.”

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  47. Bubba,,

    These protests’ are well organized and are being funded,, organizers are getting paid, but by who, some suggests’ George Soros.

    Oddly, we have a sitting President giving a speech in Germany, condoning the protests’, when he should be making a harsh stance, where crimes are being committed like in the Portland area, they should’ve brought in the National Guard.

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  48. Mark, would you expect anything less of a President whose job prior to politics was “community organizer”? If indeed Soros or other benefactors have funded the riots, it is my hope and prayer that good lawyers will make them feel the pain for what they’ve done to a lot of innocents. I would dare suggest that criminal charges could be appropriate as well.

    And to be perfectly clear; I am not trying to mock those who legitimately suffer PTSD from real sexual assaults. I just don’t think the anti-Trump riots are inspired by this.

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  49. Bubba,,

    You or I, have never mocked those suffering from PTSD,, and PTSD sufferers in my view aren’t organizing these riots.

    You are right, about Law Suits,, I called my US Senator (Sullivan) and told him to pursue who organized these riots,, because they are an accessory to any crimes committed and should be prosecuted and go to jail.

    I don’t minimize those on this thread that suffer from PTSD,, but somehow I think most will still would support Hillary even if Cruz or Rand Paul was the Republican Nominee,, because Hillary matches their Liberal Ideology,, though she treated the women victimized by her husband, like they were “deplorable’s.

    I’d like to continue reading articles,, but when it comes to politics, I don’t need to feel like I’m an angry white man, because I can’t vote for a corrupt female Socialist.

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  50. Prosecution has to happen at the local or state level, and I’m guessing a lot of mayors and governors aren’t going to push it very hard. It’s a shame, but I’m having trouble imagining Libby Schaaf in Oakland, or Jerry Brown in Sacramento, aggressively going after rioters. They are a big part of the voter base out there. Same thing in Portland–and those are the places where you’ve got the best chance of catching a “riot sponsor” red-handed.

    So I won’t be holding my breath, but I’ll be delightfully surprised if something happens.

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  51. Well if the organizers are led by international or demestic money that crosses state line, then it is a matter for the Justice Department or the FBI,,

    Of course Loretta Lynch won’t do anything about it,, she probably is enjoying the riots as she could give a crap about the law.

    She may need to come clean about that secret meeting on the plane with Bill Clinton, but she’ll plead the 5th.

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  52. Sorry to be late to this game, but here is my take.

    Been an Evangelical since the early 80’s. It was one of the first moves I made after moving here from Korea as an impressionable teenager. What drew me to Evangelicalism was the idea of loving Jesus and living for him 7 days a week, not just on Sundays.

    Another draw was patriotism. As a new immigrant, I wanted to be American and assimilate into this great nation. Evangelicalism is as American as an apple pie. Living for Jesus and loving America sounded like killing two birds with one stone. Sign me up!

    Fast forward 35 years and donations to various Evangelical causes and tithes totaling well into six figures. I am completely done with Evangelical Christianity. Little did I realize that politicization and patriotic fervor which drew me would eventually be the poison.

    I’ve been asking myself. Is there an “anti-sinner’s prayer” I can pray to officially deconvert and cut myself loose from Evangelicalism completely? Can somebody ask Franklin Graham to write one? I’d totally do it in a heart beat. And please, don’t give me the “don’t throw out the baby out with the bathwater” bullsh*t. There is no “baby” in the bathwater to speak of in this smoldering toxic dump that is American Evangelicalism.

    This quote is from Leo Tolstoy dated 130 years ago in Russia. He might have as well said this about the American Evangelical church.

    I was drawn away from the Church by various singularities in its dogmas; by its approval of persecution, capital punishment, and war; and also by its intolerance of all other forms of worship other than its own
    – Leo Tolstoy, What I Believe

    When the Communists took over, they dismantled the Russian Orthodox church along with the monarchy. Since the Church and the monarchy were one and the same, they really had no choice but to destroy both. Today, right wing conservatism and Evangelicalism are one and the same. They both deserve funerals.

    Liked by 3 people

  53. I don’t know if anyone followed Michael Spencer’s blog when he was alive. Just right before his death, he penned this piece called The Coming Evangelical Collapse published by Christian Monitor. It’s a sobering piece. Everyone should read it.

    Evangelicals have identified their movement with the culture war and with political conservatism. This will prove to be a very costly mistake….

    The evangelical investment in moral, social, and political issues has depleted our resources and exposed our weaknesses. Being against gay marriage and being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can’t articulate the Gospel with any coherence. We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith.

    Liked by 2 people

  54. Well David, we shall see what happens now that Evangelicals got the ‘savior’ they were looking for. I don’t think it’s going to be pretty. 😦

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  55. I just deleted a couple comments that were filled with links. This is not the post to convince people of one way or another. It is for people to unload how this election has affected them. In other words, you cannot argue with how someone has felt. 🙂 👏👏👏👍💡

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  56. Thanks for sharing that David. Interesting read. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit if much of it comes to pass. The religious clubs are BS. It’s the people which matter to me. Individuals who love God and want to love others.

    Evangelicalism might collapse. People might cease religious club membership and attendance. But God still has his believers scattered.

    Life continues.

    Watching and waiting for ‘that blessed hope’.

    I hope the whole system collapses.

    It’s not as if the world and God can’t see how hideous it all is.

    It’s Christians who are deceived into thinking the Christian Industrial Complex is lovely.

    Ask everyone else and they’ll tell you it’s rotten to the core.

    Liked by 2 people

  57. Shy1,
    Thank-you for mentioning Christian Healthcare Ministries, it is certainly worth checking out as another option as our policy ends in December 2016. Appreciate any encouragement at this point.

    David Cho,
    Your comment is compelling and you speak the truth of the state of American evangelicalism. Appreciate your candor. Much of evangelicalism teaches the concept of tithing ten percent of everything one earns. Under Jesus, the New Covenant, this of course is a lie, but I still sat under that teaching for years and years, being made to feel guilty by the Old Covenant sympathizers for not meeting their standards. Human lordship over others doth have its privileges in keeping the sheep fenced in. My former pastor boasted and bragged of how he and his wife even tithed on their life insurance policy in addition to their gross income (they were both salaried by the state church system, receiving their life insurance from the same religious institution)…..I’m sure they’ll be first in heaven and the rest of us will be washing their pious hands and feet for them.

    And I cannot help but agree with you concerning the state of evangelical Christianity, for it has sold out to patriotism/nationalism, combining the church with the state to accomplish what is called dominionist theology; they believe through human effort, they can establish the kingdom of god here on this earth.

    I here this statement on a regular basis coming out of the mouths/hearts of conservative church goers surrounding me, “What we need is another war to stimulate the economy.” This is coming from the evangelical industrial complex, those who attend conservative religious institutions on a regular basis who CLAIM to be born again of the Spirit of our LORD.

    How does one respond to such an atrocious statement? Who, pray tell, should sacrifice their lives to stimulate the economy here in this country? I have had close family members involved in the military, so the welfare of human life becomes an emotional topic for me.

    Concerning Franklin Graham and the Graham dynasty. Did our LORD ever desire for those who call themselves preachers or teachers, to use His Name to gain vast amounts of wealth, prestige and popularity? Is this really the Way of Jesus……seems to me in understanding our Scriptures correctly, those who preached Jesus as the only Way, were persecuted, tortured and murdered. Early Christians didn’t have an easy life here on earth, nor did they die wealthy. Is it quite possible, Jesus left the evangelical buildings/movements long ago….I believe so.

    Mr. Cho, I also believe Michael Spencer is correct in stating “Being against gay marriage and being rhetorically pro-life will not make up for the fact that massive majorities of Evangelicals can’t articulate the Gospel with any coherence. We fell for the trap of believing in a cause more than a faith.” The false gospel of health, wealth, and prosperity plus dominionism entered the church long ago…..we call it evangelicalism now days. Maybe Creflo Dollar isn’t the only wolf preacher man in sheep’s clothing that should include the word ‘Dollar’ in his name. There are legions of ‘Dollar preachers and teachers out there’ prostituting the Name of our Savior as their sustenance.

    At the end of the day, if Scriptures are understood correctly, in context, Jesus and His disciples/Apostles weren’t patriots, nor were they engaged in nationalism, nor did they teach that “the state is the way, the truth and the life.” And they more than likely didn’t have a Roman flag placed amongst them when they worshiped the LORD either.

    Liked by 3 people

  58. David Cho: Like your comment “They both deserve funerals”. Sad isn’t it? Think Leonard Ravenhill wrote it best in “Why Revival Tarries & America is Too Young to Die”! Election results: are going to be interesting. Just think their is so much in-house fighting and does the system really work for the people or for a Gov’t that’s self-serving much like the false church?

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  59. Bike Bubba-NOVEMBER 16, 2016 @ 3:31 PM (said that in previous blog that something was really wrong and it got deleted and looks like still going on (heart issues were REALLY being revealed). I was spewing a different issue so recognized wounds/hurt&broken heart and something had no control over (have church abuse issues along with so many other items). Can’t put my finger on his root issue but some things are only broken through prayer and fasting as Derek Prince teaches; wise counselor can get to the root of the problem if we allow the healing. No one thought when they got married they would end up divorced or wouldn’t have gotten married and yet what were the reasons we picked those people (familiar spirits?). There are Normal and Healthy Women and or Men that will get you healed up from wrong choices, childhoods, anything! Would go see Herb Goldberg & Susan Forward Ph.D’s they don’t mince it and are wise!

    Muff Potter: Worked in a very former prominent Business Corpse (Corporation) that was locker-room talk the whole time there (NOTHING, NOTHING in life prepared you for human depravity of you would call me a liar on conversations, items done, debauchery, perversion; it was “animal house” in suits and worse (at one time 1 of the top 10 Companies in Forbes 500 List and now no longer); it was like a war zone in perversion. I do NOT know what their upbringing was to be such walking dead=Suits that had no character, morals of who they slimed and thought it was hilarious; (have book offers=WHY WOULD I WANT TO RE-LIVE THAT HELL let alone put my brain though the car wash of imagery we had to endure due to VERY BAD/POOR MANAGEMENT*! Could honestly say, the whole body of the fish stunk from the head and boy did it stink big time. Ironic, some young man (early 40’s) yesterday was telling me about his current work place (huge corporation) and all that went on there and meaning and cry IT’S GOTTEN WORSE; don’t want to slime anyone (this guy could write the book on perversion 101, 102, 103, 104 and beyond=such human emptiness. Told him just a few of my experiences over 30 years ago and he thought the people where psychotic and per the reviews: “snakes in suits” confirms. All I can think of is Einstein’s definition of EVIL is “void and without God”. Sometimes I would think what were their wives and or children like if so depraved the fine line of what they did to other people as grown adults.
    mkmfrommnandwi: Agree with you, thanks for sharing; it’s 2 Corinthians 1:3-7 (actually read the whole chapter)!
    *Worked for another Major Corporation and that Management was STELLAR, very respectful and everyone and allowed no shenanigans whatsoever remember
    Stu & Hal with great memories and affection they had STERLING character, morals and were great family men and so they are out there (looked them up and sent them a glorious THANK YOU)! Companies should hire them to run their Personnel. AWESOME AND AMAZING MEN=WONDERFUL!

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  60. I usually don’t comment here often but felt that the record needed to be set straight on who was a far better candidate, “in my humble opinion”. I followed this campaign like a hawk and although I strongly condemn any words Trump said in the paSt what Ed said is true about men- they do say these things. I just remember college days and knew this kind of talk was prevalent, however men usually did not act on it. However, Hillary actually condone her OWN husband Bubba Bill in actual rape and pedophile activities with Jeffery Epstein on “orgy island” in the Bahamas. My dad knew Bill Clinton from our Arkansas days; we knew the type of person he was. Big difference in my opinion between what someone says and what someone does. Hilary supported these things and also participated in sexual activities herself they say (we will see when all the wikileaks come out in court). This woman is truly horrible but the news covered her and lied for her. No way in heavens would I have voted for this despicable woman and I am a woman who voted for Trump! In my opinion if a woman hears a man talk like Trump did then tell the guy off; men need to know that women can be strong enough to face their ridiculous sex banter and that they are being immature brats.

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  61. This is just one of the many info concerning the Clintons
    ronaldwederfoort.wordpress.com/2016/11/01/bombshell-hillary-clinton-pedophile-sex-ring-continues-to-be-exposed-by-insiders

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  62. @Carmen

    Well David, we shall see what happens now that Evangelicals got the ‘savior’ they were looking for. I don’t think it’s going to be pretty

    In fairness, I don’t think Evangelicals see Trump as their savior. “Hillary is much worse” is their excuse.

    Years from now, *if the Trump presidency falters badly, that excuse simply won’t fly. Hillary, like other losers of presidential elections will fade away. The Trump presidency will have to stand on its own. If Trump falters very badly, then what? Still scream “Hillary is much worse”?

    Without looking up, can anyone name who Harding, Buchanan, Grant and Andrew Jackson defeated before their disastrous presidencies started? Off the top of your head, do you remember who Nixon defeated? After all, he served in many of our lifetimes. Is anyone screaming Hubert Humphrey would have been much worse? That’s what I am talking about.

    Nobody will remember Hillary except for Christian grifters like Franklin Graham and John MacArthur in whose heads Hillary will live forever rent free. But everybody will remember that Evangelical Christians played a crucial role in foisting Donald Trump on the world. So good luck with the “Hillary is worse!” excuse years from now.

    *I say “if” because I am not going to assume he will fail and I Trump to succeed for the sake of the country and the world.

    Liked by 1 person

  63. I appreciate your comments, Katy. Well said.

    I was watching this debate between Roland Reagan and George Bush Sr back in 1980 on Youtube.

    Keep in mind that these two men were vying for the Republican presidential nomination in front of a Republican audience. Also keep in mind that today, Ronald Reagan is held up as the gold standard of what a God fearing American leader should be by Evangelicals.

    Guess how many times these two men invoked God and faith: ZERO*. Not once. Nada. The Reagan-Bush debate gives you a glimpse of what national politics was like right before the era of the Religious Right.

    Take any of the Republican primary debates from this year and watch the candidates scrambling around to out-Jesus each other. It’s sickening. Take this one example from the first GOP debate. This stuff may be music to Evangelical Christians’ ears. Me? I die a little on the inside and throw up in my mouth.

    I’m certainly an imperfect man. And it’s only by the blood of Jesus Christ that I’ve been redeemed from my sins.

    And someone invited him to Clay Road Baptist Church. And he gave his heart to Jesus and it turned him around.

    Their faces should be next to the word sanctimony in every dictionary, but you gotta hand it to them for proficiency in Christianese. They knows the audience.

    Interestingly enough, Reagan was the first president to have divorced. Thrice married Donald Trump will be the second president to have divorced (two divorces!). Great job, Evangelicals. “Family values” indeed.

    *Unless somebody can prove me otherwise by slugging through the 90 minute clip. I couldn’t find a transcript online to do a word search.

    Liked by 1 person

  64. So my feelings on the election have moved over the last few days from sadness to incredulity. Having some private conversations with religious conservative friends, I have been reading some of the material that informs them. What I’m seeing is a lot of opinion without evidence or facts given to support it. A simple google search for news articles on the people, organizations, and events the articles refer to reveals the situation to be different than they describe. In other words, a very little bit of fact-checking debunks what I’ve read thus far. I even got into the subject of people who have “died under mysterious circumstances” connected with the Clintons. Snopes has a long article with the facts on each case. Just examining news articles & death certificates makes it clear. Love them or hate them, the Clintons have been investigated 3 times, and there have been no charges.

    I have been reading up on all sorts of things. People are filled with fear about “the gay agenda” but the ‘facts’ they are basing their fear on were invented by a psychologist named Paul Cameron (Family Research Institute), who was kicked out of the psychological association because of his many lies and fabrications. (Other founding members of The Family Research Council include Tony Perkins, who was suspended from the police force for dishonesty and, later, was caught filing false disclosure forms to hide white supremacist donations to a US Senate campaign he worked on; and George Alan Rekers, anti-gay activist who turned out to be flagrantly gay in his private life.) I ask myself, how in the world does one serve God by telling or living lies?

    People are convinced that “the family” and their faith are “under attack” but they can’t articulate to me how someone else living differently constitutes an attack on them.

    The thing that is most dispiriting to me is when people are so convinced that “the media” is biased, they are unwilling to accept any source for facts, which leaves them in a helpless position to fact-check anything.

    So I have now moved from sadness to scratching my head in bewilderment.

    Liked by 4 people

  65. Shy 1,,

    Hard the believe all the rhetoric that media spills out,, as for media bias, it does exists’ on both sides.

    As for the reason nearly 90% of American counties voted for Trump, the DNC admitted that Hillary lost the Middle Class, because they voted with their wallet tired of barely making it living paycheck to paycheck,, Hillary admitted to embracing the status quo, without an economic vision.

    My wife and I, helped an abused young mother, with no economic hope who’s purchasing power shrank over the course of 8 years.. She didn’t need a candidate embracing the status quo with no economic vision because quite frankly Hillary isn’t a capitalist.

    Trump’s economic vision may be too little too late, but his economic vision surpasses Hillary’s.

    Poverty and lack of opportunity. is no friend to an abused woman.

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  66. I haven’t read any of the posts that were on here since I was last here. I’m afraid if I read any of them, I may get sucked into arguing or debating people, and I don’t want to go there. It may be best if I don’t read them?

    I hope I did not offend or hurt anyone’s feelings with my comments. That was not my intent.

    I don’t think Ed ever visited again to respond to my comments, or if so, his comments weren’t allowed to appear(?)

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  67. Daisy,,

    I wasn’t offended by your words.

    I was a little surprised with the diverse opinions and ideologies in this thread. I’m sure some were offended by my reasoning of voting for Trump, for which I apologize.

    Wanting migration to be legal, safe and orderly or a President with an actual economic plan that lifts some Gov’t oversight on Industry is something Trump embraced, actually so did the markets. I

    I’d also like to think wanting “orderly, safe and legal” migration along our borders has been defined as racism by the left and that is fake news.

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  68. oops I need to amend :

    I’d also like to think wanting “orderly, safe and legal” migration along our borders has been defined as racism by the left and that is fake news

    and change it to

    I’d also like to think wanting “orderly, safe and legal” migration along our borders as patriotic but many in the media has defined it as racism by the left and that is fake news

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  69. @Mark

    The question posed by Julie Anne is “How has this election affected you as a Christian?” (emphasis mine).

    Pros and cons of the Trump and Clinton candidacies have been discussed and debated ad nauseum. I have heard every point you raise in favor of Trump. But how has this election affected you as a Christian? That is the question at hand here.

    Liked by 1 person

  70. David Cho,,

    To be referred as an angry white man who voted for Trump on this thread, has caused me as a Christian, be somewhat defensive, somewhat judgmental. Judgmental in the sense that many in this thread seem to ignore that if we continued with the status quo that things weren’t going to improve. But also I’m judging the rioters for not being law abiding.

    Then there are those in this thread that seem to ignore that we should secure the borders in order to have legal, safe and orderly migration by attaining a green card is ignored,, in fact those of us that want our borders secured are part of the deplorable and racist (which I’m not)

    I think how this is effected me, is I’m admitting my sin, judging those who magnify Trumps issues and minimize or insulate Hillary’s issues. Maybe as a Christian I’m failing to see the trade off of voting for Hillary over Trump, not seeing if either are practicing Christians.

    I see Liberals ignoring fiscal and pro-economics, who instead mainly vote more with their feelings, Ideology that actually enables the poor, in order to defend abortion (which Trump will not change) in some cases simply voting for Hillary, strictly for gender.

    She has accepted millions of dollars in her Foundation. from Middle East nations that hate Gays, Christians, Americans, Israel and use Sharia Law to justify abusing women. Why would they donate money to a foundation unless they were purchasing influence in American Policy

    She is no champion to a lot of abused women,, actually retaliating against the women her husband abused.

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  71. I’m not Mark (really!), but how it’s affected me is way back. Given two unpalatable candidates, one of whom was almost certain to become President, it brought me to my knees in prayer that they would come to faith and repentance, and got me to think of what is really important here. I also became somewhat quiet as those supporting Mrs. Clinton started to automatically accuse those who did not support her of sexism, racism, and a host of other isms.

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  72. “Pink Mark chiming in :)” As a Christian, I think that our society has become increasingly isolated and fractured. In a sense, I think the government has done too thorough of a job of regulating and managing society, to the point that we have completely arms-length dependencies on each other.

    I used to be hard-core conservative, and I’ve moved towards quasi-Libertarian, but I still have some fundamental struggles about how the battle lines have been drawn. For example:

    Can we provide a “safety net” without creating generational poverty?
    Did Social Security and Welfare create a disincentive to invest in the upbringing of the next generation?
    Can we deregulate business while still protecting their customers and employees?
    Is income inequality really the result of rollbacks in government regulation, or is income inequality due to the fact that excessive regulation has squashed the “American Dream”?
    Who should we be more afraid of, Google, or the NSA?

    Interestingly, there is a big debate over a road change in town. Essentially, the change is supposed to improve traffic flow by removing lanes. Based on my studies, I’m not surprised that the opposite of “common sense” is really the best, but it’s interesting that traffic flow is more a factor of “making sure drivers are on task” than “making sure any obstacles to traffic flow are removed”.

    I wonder if we need that revolution in our society – an understanding that complacency is a bigger enemy than safety, perhaps? I don’t know.

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  73. I had another thought. People are really flabbergasted by the traffic engineers. One insightful comment was, “how can you make a road safer by removing the guardrails?”

    I think the response to that is, it seems completely paradoxical, but then, those who have adopted the “safety in danger” approach to road design have greatly improved the safety of the infrastructure.

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  74. David Cho, my parents’ generation was a generation where “religion belonged in the closet”. Politicians were hesitant to say about their personal faith in a public forms. As I recall, John McCain refused to talk about his personal faith, and that didn’t go over will with the Evangelicals. Even James Dobson refused to endorse him, until he chose Sarah Palin as his running mate.

    This election has pretty much just confirmed the hypocrisy of mainstream Evangelicalism. Their leaders were falling over each other to endorse Trump, who, as it has become more and more apparent, would say anything to get more votes, regardless of his beliefs.

    Liked by 1 person

  75. @Mark (pink)

    my parents’ generation was a generation where “religion belonged in the closet”. Politicians were hesitant to say about their personal faith in a public forms.

    Is that really a generational thing? What drew me to Evangelicalism was its adherents’ willingness to talk up their faith in daily life, not just in a religious context.

    “How is your walk in the Lord?”
    “Have you spent time in the Word?”
    “When did you give your life to Christ?”

    You know, Christianese. I wrote about it here awhile ago, if I may shamelessly plug it. I am guessing Christianese is a product of the Jesus movement of the 70’s, not of old time religion.

    Christianese makes me cringe now. I die a little on the inside when Evangelicals after dishing out venomous tirades directed at “liberals” and “the left” and pivot back to Christianese to show their “spiritual side” before resuming the next round of angry vitriol.

    Leaving the Evangelical bubble has helped me gain sanity, but today politicians are speaking in fluent Christianese. It may be music to Evangelicals who feel flattered by powerful people who speak their language. Getting your ears tickled much? (II Timothy 4:7). The toxic fumes from the Evangelical bubble have gotten out to grace the world. Not sure if this is what Paul meant by the “flagrance of Christ.”

    Come quickly, Lord Jesus. I can’t take it any more!

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  76. I think with how intertwined “American Civil Religion” has been with our secular culture, I think there has been the counterpoint of having a Christian jargon that has developed as an attempt to separate those who are Christian because they are American from those who are Christian because they follow Christ.

    My mom talked about being “born again”, and people who came to the door were satisfied with that response, or if that wasn’t good enough, they would be satisfied with the date of her conversion. Evangelism Explosion it was two questions – if you die tonight where are you going, and if the answer is Heaven, the second question was, when you show up in Heaven, and God asks you “why should I let you in?” what would you say?

    One thing that I’m hopeful of with the secularization of our culture is that there will be a lack of incentive to “sound Christian”.

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  77. David, as I’m sure you know, you ain’t the only guy who cringes at Christianese–but you do have a more polite name for it than I’ve used at times, sad to say. Suffice it to say that getting tired of “christianese” and “Jesus Junk” is thankfully not the same as tiring of faith.

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  78. How about Self-Righteousnese? That sounds more descriptive.

    Christianese used to be confined to the Evangelical subculture bubble which the general American public used to be unfamiliar with. And I have the if-it-works-for-you attitude. Once removed from the bubble, I didn’t have to deal with it.

    Now it is out in the open. Politicians use it in speeches and debates to pander to Evangelicals. Foxnews routinely features commentators fluent in it. Rightwing blogs are full of it. It is pervasive. Remember Dobson speaking of Trump as a “baby Christian”? The only knock was that he was too immature in the Lord to “speak our language.” Secularization of America, my a**.

    There is no doubt Christian grifters like James Dobson is pleased with themselves for having made disciples of all nations all patriotic Americans.

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  79. @Mark

    Good observations. It was a way to distinguish themselves from “cultural” Christians. “Just because you are in a garage, that doesn’t mean you are a car!”

    One thing that I’m hopeful of with the secularization of our culture is that there will be a lack of incentive to “sound Christian”.

    Yep. I am a huge fan of secularization. Secularization secularizes this country that was never really Christian to begin with.

    Go Secularizers Go!!!

    Sounds like a great name for a football team.

    Liked by 1 person

  80. @David, I don’t get why Christians haven’t been wiser about Christianese. I know a lot of people who have been sucked into shady MLMs (e.g. Amway) because they used language designed to sound Christian. I know one in particular that is pretty shameless. It’s almost to the point of being a counterfeit church. Regular Wednesday night sales rallies, quarterly conferences with WORSHIP SERVICES. And yet, they’re selling product. If you’re a Christian, this is marketed as a way to make converts. A company everyone can believe in.

    I’ve grown up with Christian friends and acquaintances who have tried to bring that crap into the church, as if every church member had some spiritual obligation to join this amazing company founded on Christian values, or buy products at 2x-3x the costs because it’s the “right thing”.

    I don’t want to make broad generalizations, but I’m guessing people who fall for that kind of messaging are the people who can be counted on to pull a lever because “James Dobson” endorsed Trump, or because Trump threw out enough Christianese to make them think that he’s all about restoring Christendom.

    Liked by 1 person

  81. @Daisy:

    Ed’s argumentation in that regard reminds me of preacher J D Hall arguing with Janet Mefferd months ago that supposedly all men, even Christian ones, secretly fantasize about raping little girls.

    Another glimpse into the ManaGAWD’s own sexual fantasies/kinks?

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  82. @DavidCho:

    Christianese used to be confined to the Evangelical subculture bubble which the general American public used to be unfamiliar with. And I have the if-it-works-for-you attitude. Once removed from the bubble, I didn’t have to deal with it.

    And that is the difference between a Technical Language and a Mystery Language.

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