Christianity, Presidential Election, Evangelical Leaders Influence
How has this election affected you as a Christian? This has been the most difficult election I’ve ever seen in my life. As a Christian, I found it difficult to support either Republican or Democratic candidate for a variety of reasons. There were certain issues that greatly concerned me about both candidates, yet I felt compelled to do my civic duty and vote for the person whom I believed could best do the job of President — but even then, I still was not 100% settled with my vote.
My best friend and I were at odds. We got in many heated debates by phone, text, messaging, but neither one convinced the other to vote for the other side. Thankfully, this friend and I go back many years and we disagree on a lot of topics, but our love and respect for each other allows us to remain close friends.
But on Facebook, I have seen people lose friendships because of this kind of heated debating. It’s very sad.
Another issue that has disturbed me greatly is church leaders using their pulpit or platform to endorse candidates and cloak it with spiritual verbiage to imply that God would want His people to vote a particular way. We saw this from Wayne Grudem, Thabiti Anyabwile, John MacArthur, and others. I am uncomfortable with this because they are using their power and influence to steer people to their thoughts and ideas, rather than encouraging people to use their own critical thinking skills and independent thought.
Yesterday, I saw a friend confess on Facebook that she voted a certain way. She felt the need to justify her vote for Trump, but was now afraid about what that might mean for the future.
Each of us had our own reasons for voting the way we did. Some people are single-issue voters, and that issue is often pro-life within the Christian community. I used to always vote pro-life because to me it said that if someone valued life in the womb, they would obviously value life outside the womb. I’m not so sure I believe that anymore after seeing my loud and obnoxious ex-pastor standing on the street corner yelling at pregnant women when they enter an abortion clinic, yet he failed to provide consistent and real help to a woman with children who was suffering ongoing domestic violence in her home. His actions showed that he was only selectively pro-life and I cannot stand that kind of hypocrisy.
One key issue I had to emotionally contend with was Trump’s misogynist comments and especially the crude words that were released about how he gloated about sexually pursuing married women, kissing them or “grabbing their pussy,” without consent. Although I have never experienced something like that, many women have, and it dawned on me that every time these sexual abuse survivors looked at Trump, those tapes of his words could play in their minds and cause emotional harm as they relive their own sexually abusive experience.
The same could also be said about looking at Hillary Clinton. I think some sexual abuse survivors could look at her and how it was reported that she treated her husband’s sexual abuse survivors. Survivors could also have difficulty knowing that Bill Clinton was once again in the white house (not as president, this time). So, either candidate could bring back unwanted memories to the forefront for the next four years. In both cases, women were devalued and used for men’s sexual gratification.
There are many reasons why Christians are upset this election season. After seeing quite a few posts on Facebook telling others to stop talking about the election, I posted this on my own Facebook wall:
If you are telling someone who voted for HRC to suck it up and let it go, and quit complaining about the election results, that is not helpful. This was a very emotional and intense election with mud slinging in all directions.
If you are unable to allow someone to express their anger or sadness on their own Facebook wall as they grieve their loss, just unfollow them for a few days.
Even better, instead of telling them to stop, why not ask them what this loss represents for them. Come into their world and attempt to understand. You may find you actually agree with their perspective after hearing their story. This is a time to stop, listen, and try to understand each other as we move forward. That is how we can best unify and help get our country on the right track.
One of the reasons why my good friend and I have respect for each other is that we have dug deep to understand the reasons we voted for our candidates. It makes sense, based on what is most dear to her, why she voted the way she did. I can respect her decision, but certainly don’t have to agree with it. Neither one of us is right or wrong, we just made the best choices we could based on what was most important to us.
There are a lot of feelings going around: uncertainty, excitement, anger, sadness, etc. I’d like to use this post as an opportunity to air what you’ve been feeling about this election. Have you been upset about Christian leaders telling you how to vote? How has Christian evangelicalism influenced the vote this election? How are you feeling about your vote now that it is all said and done? Do you have regrets? What are your fears and concerns? Are you satisfied with the results?
Now, this is not going to be a place to debate politicians. I will be very heavy handed with the delete button if I see it go that direction. I mainly want to provide this opportunity to share from your heart your feelings and concerns because I think there are a lot of people who have not had a safe place to do so.
I like what Mr. Rogers said about emotions and expressing them, and that is why I decided to allow this post on a normally taboo subject here.
Let’s be sure to show each other kindness and respect and try to understand where people are coming from in your responses. Thank you!
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Bike Bubba, I’m giving the side eye to a lot of the media these days. When I first learned about the Bush email scandal, I had to follow links from some biased websites to even find news articles from 2007. They’ve been somewhat buried, but they’re out there. I do think Newsweek has a little (maybe?) more respectability than the alt left or alt right sources. At least it hasn’t yet been classified as a tabloid.
I’m absolutely horrified at the thought of Trump being impeached. I like Pence far less. I’d rather just keep it the way it is. I wish we’d had better choices all across the board.
My former cult didn’t believe in voting, so I’m trying to figure out where I fall in all of this. I’m probably either just right or left of center, depending on the issues. But I’m thoroughly disgusted with all of it right now.
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Irene,,
Thank you for seeing what I see. The fiscal side of abuse is real and something this thread doesn’t always consider and take into consideration. If they did, they may think twice about the economic fiscal ideology of their candidate.
Some may even think if one votes for Trump that makes them a racist or insensitive to abuse or hates Muslims. Many women voted for Trump for the same reasons as I did.
But in truth, the Clinton Foundation received 250 million dollars from Middle East nations in order to have political influence in our nation. (corruption that Liberals turn a blind eye to,, very hypocritical)
These nations don’t offer the same freedoms for women as America and America still has a way to go and then Middle East nations embrace Sharia Law and Clinton isn’t going to yell and scream about it otherwise the faucet of money would stop going into the Clinton Foundation. IF women voted for her simply because she was a woman then they are blinded, as there were far better choices.
One thing that many in this thread doesn’t pay attention to, is even the Federal Reserve admitted their policies are hurting the middle class and the poor, which is 80% of our population,, going on 10 years now.
Poverty is no friend to abused woman. Hillary champions bad fiscal policy of the Federal Reserve,, (Janet Yellen)
Hillary didn’t back Federal Reserve Governor Esther George’s monetary philosophy.
I grew up having a single mom in the early 60’s who struggled and suffered from abuse,, we were poor but there was better purchasing power and opportunity that many abused women don’t have access to now.
If we don’t rid over-regulation and some Gov’t over site, things will only get worse for married or single women that are experiencing abuse. Clinton was going to continue the Gov’t over-regulation on American Industries and stagnant real economic growth.
Funding for Social Services and Gov’t backed refuges for battered women are playing tug-of-war for the same tax dollars with those needing public assistance, Gov’t payrolls including Education, Police and Public Works.
Working for a Gov’t contractor myself, I know that the economy needs to grow faster than the growth of Gov’t otherwise Gov’t dies, including services designed to help battered and abused women.
This economy needs a serious lift, which creates jobs, getting people off of public assistance and paying taxes. In order to provide enough the Social Services needed to help the needy. But also give the opportunity for abused woman access to more financial freedom. Clinton was going to continue the socialistic path as Obama,
Will economic change happen fast enough,, probably not as we are in a serious bubble,, some of you may have Gov’t or Education jobs with nice pensions and health benefits but that would be under pressure if the cost of Gov’t exceeds revenue, like California,,
I know why some of you voted for Clinton, but the economic reality and her lack of fiscal expertise was going to send the economy into a bigger bubble hurting struggling women even more. The bubble may still pop with Trump, but the explosion won’t be as big with Clinton as Pres..
The media will beat the crap of Trump and blame him, but then that will set the table for the likes of a George Soros backed candidate like Sanders or Elizabeth Warren for 2020 of whatever Liberal you champion, who will undoubtedly hate Israel.
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I think both parties are invested in the status quo of mega-corporations.
Big corporations donate to both Republican and Democratic candidates. Democrats love big corporations because when they do “bad” things (i.e. too big to fail), they can demonize corporate fat cats and increase regulations in an effort to protect citizens. (This does precisely the opposite – it increases executive pay and makes corporations even larger and less competitive). Republicans like to trumpet big corporations as American success stories.
Both parties allow corporate welfare like no other. Municipalities give property tax and corporate tax deductions to large corporations who locate there. They allow companies to write legislation, for example, General Motors wrote legislation designed to keep Tesla from selling cars directly to consumers in Michigan and got the state to pass it. The legislation that was supposed to eliminate “too big to fail” made it more difficult to maintain a banking business. That led to consolidation, and bigger banks that are more critical to the economy, and less responsive to consumers (e.g. Wells Fargo)
Warren and Sanders are anti-corporatist, but, again, their solution is to make government bigger. So, essentially, for all the finger pointing at one party about fascism, both parties are essentially fascist. They want a few mega-corporations that they can manipulate and control through corporate welfare and powerful regulatory agencies.
As I think we see, it’s the collection of power, and not where that power resides that brings tyranny. Democrats seem to want us to believe that a large, powerful government will make us more free from tyrannical corporations, and Republicans seem to claim that large corporations will protect us from a tyrannical government, but neither is the case. Small government and small corporations are more responsible and responsive, and bring greater freedom.
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JA,
Surprised at Ed’s ‘alpha male’ stand?? 🙂
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Remember the Multicultural Diversity of Yugoslavia?
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Well, I’ve read quite a few things in the comments on this page that I thought I’d never read at Spiritual Sounding Board, so I guess that’s says something (even if it’s not positive).
In their votes for president, the majority of evangelicals have doubled down on the hypocrisy that have caused many people to flee churches. I hope no one acts surprised when it happens (and yes, I can already hear the Scotsman coming over the hill).
I do have to give credit to many Mormons out there particularly in Utah. They seemed to actually try to stick by their advertised principles.
On a related note, there’s some interesting reading at the link below about a 2016 survey from PPRI regarding the rise of the “religiously unaffiliated”:
http://www.prri.org/research/prri-rns-2016-religiously-unaffiliated-americans/
A couple of interesting points:
–The number of people unaffiliated with religion has increased rapidly (nearly doubled) since 2004.
–Even 1 in 5 white evangelicals think religion causes more problems in society than it solves.
–The majority of unaffiliated people (58%) are rejectionists. They aren’t looking for a church. They aren’t shopping for a new religion. They have examined it and rejected it. They’re highly unlikely to come back.
Sidenote: I love hearing the common accusation that Hillary Clinton stayed with Bill just to advance her own career. It’s great for two reasons. First, there’s no evidence to support it, which I recognize is a pretty common situation. Secondly, it illustrates the type of double bind we love to put women in because you know that if Hillary had divorced him, then she would’ve been roundly criticized by the same people for leaving him. When you compare her to her opponent in that regard, then my mind becomes blown. You have Christians complaining that a woman stayed in a marriage as a point to argue in support of a man with no demonstrated regard for marriage. My head just exploded.
I grew up with Christians saying, “Character Matters” trying to bring down their opponents. I have the same people now saying it actually doesn’t matter because “We’re not electing a Sunday school teacher”
All of that can be summarized by noting that Christians (as a group) act just like everyone else. You can be sure that those on the outside see that, and there’s no greater indictment against Christianity than that.
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Well, outside looking in – you’re a courageous person. You want a ‘typical’ Trump voter? Just scroll up to Chapman Ed’s comments – he reflects the angry white male who came out in droves to the polls. 😦
You’ve got it right when you say that christians are no different than anyone else; only in their minds.
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Velour wrote:
“I am very pragmatic. I realize that voters will vote for a liberal and then for a conservative. When I looked at England’s elections it was the same thing.”
Great point Velour! It highlights an inconvenient truth about America politics that many choose to ignore.
I read about a coal mining county in Eastern Kentucky that was solidly Obama in 08′ and in 12′. This time round’ it went to Trump hands down.
Clinton shot herself in the foot when she remarked at a town hall event in West Virginia: “We’re going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business.” She restricted her base to women, blacks, latinos, college kids, and the white liberal latte set sitting in Starbucks. She rolled the dice and lost.
Trump on the other hand played to the sleeping giant Clinton ignored and won.
On a campaign stop in the rust belt of the Great Lakes region he told one of the big automakers that if they closed one of the last remaining plants and shipped it to Mexico, he’d slap a 35% tariff on their cars coming back into the States.
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Yes, Carmen, I have been very surprised with Ed’s comments of late. I will leave it at that.
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Mark,
Yes large corporations control both parties.
The economy is run by Keynesians and they have knowingly admitted their polices have hurt the middle class and poor, causing the much larger gap between Rich and Poor, because their policies magnified Industrial Consolidation killing millions of jobs.
0% rates and QE’s didn’t allow home values to find a bottom nor did it allow consumer goods to find a bottom and for our economy to be based on a supply/demand free market society. (price fixing)
For a woman who has kids and in a bad marriage this makes her vulnerable, because her retail purchasing power has shrunk..
Now for a woman who has been exposed to verbal spiritual abuse in a church around chauvinistic men, but married to someone who loves and respects her that has a good job, where maybe the only crisis she has if trying figure out how she wants to remodel her home may not even care what the Federal Reserve is doing,, and many battered women not having access to financial freedom to escape abuse, probably doesn’t know, but should care what the Fed is doing.
Large Corporations know how to navigate their businesses in a way they can maintain market control.. a weak dollar benefited them because higher cost caused them to absorb market control off the backs of small business failures.
To go back to normalcy now. is going to be painful in particular to those that benefited with low rates. Because home values may go upside down in value when rates finally rise as prices will have to come down,, which actually is good for a single mom needing a home.
But in the end a strong dollar and being energy independent will make products more affordable, from abroad but also domestically, because production cost will stabilize and possibly shrink.
Economics matters to a battered abused woman who is poor and trapped in a bad marriage.
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Carmen..
For most voters, it had to do with economics.. not “the angry white male who came out in droves to the polls”
That is over the top a racist, sexiest remark,, and that view is the same mentality as a disrespecting chauvinist belittling a woman of any race.
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You should have listened to that speech in its entirety, Muff. 😦 You bought what the Repub publicity machine was selling.
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I disagree, Mark. We’ll leave it at that.
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Carmen,
Your comment was a racist and sexiest remark,, you can’t spin it.
And yes this election was about economics otherwise blue states like Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania wouldn’t have turned red..
Bad monetary policy put the squeeze on small businesses to collapse and benefit corporations like Wal-Mart.. this has been going on for 20 years but magnified in the last 10 years.
Ask an mentally abused battered woman who has been abandoned how her economy is doing,, My wife and I have helped a woman in that very situation.
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@Carmen
Yes, I’ve read pretty much all of the comments here.
In particular, I read a person flippantly dismiss a group of women as liars who say they were assaulted even though the man they accused has joked on tape about assaulting women. And I read it on this site, which is a haven for many who have been mistreated and abused.
I did not see that coming.
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@ Carmen
Just for the record. I am not an angry white male.
I’m Native American by birth and I’m also an old school Socialist in the tradition of Franklin Roosevelt.
I support gay marriage and I worked with grad-students in my area to get the vote out to defeat prop. 8 here in California.
On the other hand I’m staunchly anti-abortion.
I’m all over the map.
I’m an equal opportunity offender.
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Can I say that I’ve been horribly disappointed to see how the terms “triggered” and “safe space” have been used to mock others in the wake of the election? For so many, those terms are a joke to make fun of others.
The lack of empathy by so many on display around me is both maddening and disheartening.
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Mark, you are actually correct.
Keynesian economics is actually in play here amongst both political parties and the driving force behind making our country more of a third world nation at the mercy of the U.N. And many believe the lie that the Federal Reserve is a part of our governmental establishment, when in fact, it is owned and operated by the extremely wealth international money/power brokers.
And the economy/health care, with I believe have a direct impact on one another, were two of the main reasons I came out to vote this year. I did not vote in the last two elections for there was no one to vote for in those elections as well.
And bless you for helping that woman in need….you and your wife are being the hands and feet of Jesus in ministering to those souls in need. We carry out fewer and fewer bags of groceries with the same amount of funds due to the increase in inflation, which doesn’t seem to be a talking point with some political candidates as well as the mainstream media.
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BTDT, given what I’ve seen of NewsWeak lately, I’m sad to say I can’t even classify them up with the National Enquirer. Others may disagree, but when a magazine gives hatchet jobs a bad name, there’s really no other conclusion I can come to.
That said, if there is something to the Bush administration withholding emails that way, and they were indeed government records not provided to the government, I’m game to punish those people, too.
On another note; yes, the mob that beat the man in Chicago was referring to voting for Trump. Let’s not be silly and deny what the video evidence clearly shows–besides, it was the other guy that initiated the traffic accident. Snopes and Chicago’s “finest” are not doing themselves proud in this one.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/11/11/video-shows-group-beating-man-in-chicago-yelling-you-voted-trump-and-dont-vote-trump/
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Katy,
Thank you,, poverty is no friend to a poor battered woman,, a booming economy is the quickest way out for her or a woman who is married and abused.
Our economy needs Gov’t over-site to end in order for our economy to end,, Personally I preferred Rand Paul.
The problem for many voters is they are so consumed with social ideology like their rights are being violated on both sides..
The reason why the Fed doesn’t see inflation is because their mandate over-shot their inflation goals in 2008 when crude hit 150.00 a barrel,, killing 10 million jobs (job losses are considered deflationary in their mandate) Crude went up too high because the Fed embraced an easy money policy to save housing,, they also triggered the housing crisis when they lowered rates at 1% in 2002 causing builders to build homes without buyers.
I do find that many Gov’t workers and educators are beginning to figure out, is if the economy doesn’t grow, poverty will increase, public assistance will grow and there won’t be enough tax revenue to pay for Gov’t.. that’s when Gov’t pensions get tapped into.
The Fed needs to stop feeding us cool-aid and allow us to stand on our 2 feet and stop price fixing.
If Hillary wasn’t a Keynesian she would’ve won the election.
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@Bike Bubba
I have watched the video. I have seen the media frenzy. Btw, how is it that the media is supposedly biased against Trump and helping to rig the election one day, and then the oracle of truth when it fits the pro-Trump agenda. Sorry. Not buying it.
Why don’t you read what the victim himself had to say about it:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-trump-beating-video-1111-met-2-20161110-story.html
This beating was not provoked over politics, though the taunts from bystanders didn’t help. I hope the police track them down and charge them with assault.
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Been There,,
Wasn’t it protesters that beat the guy up? If that is the case,, the accident as nothing to do with it, they were looking for a reason to brutally beat this guy up.
No accident should warrant that kind of retaliation, it was fueled by the election results and the overall movement may have been financed by George Soros.
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Outsidelookingin722 – the lack of empathy has been appalling. From prominent pastors, too! Makes me sick.
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Mark, I haven’t read anything about protesters being involved. Only that it was bystanders who taunted about Trump. Think about the people who have been shot over road rage that had nothing to do with any election. Some people are just violent, period.
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Mark,
BINGO!
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Been There,,
In the video,, there was a lot of bystanders,, why would they be on the streets not doing anything about it except maybe celebrating it,, odd they would video tape it in the first place.
You are right about people being violent,, the core of it, whether they are Liberal, Conservative, White or Black, is we lack love..
A bad economy doesn’t help,, I read the insensitive comment that protesters need to get a job.. Again to me this election was about economic philosophies,, how can they get a job under Bush #2 and Obama’s Keynesian monetary policy with too much Gov’t Over-site on industry. Clinton embraced the same policy.
Embracing safe, orderly and easy migration shouldn’t be considered racist. Me wanting the Gov’t off of my economic back is why I vote the way I do.
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Mark, I have never been to Chicago, but it’s a rather large city. I imagine, like most cities, that there are a lot of people out and about on any given day. As far as anybody not doing anything about it, I have no answer. Sometimes a good Samaritan will intervene. If you google “bystander effect” there’s an inverse relationship between the number of people present and the likelihood that someone will help.
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Been There,
You are unconvinced that these weren’t protesters that did this,, I get it,, you haven’t denied it either,
I’ll give you some credit because you have raised enough doubt for me to be only 99% convinced this happened by protesters.
I’m 99% sure if the protests’ weren’t happening the man wouldn’t have been beaten.
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Mark, if there is one thing I am absolutely certain of, it’s that I’m not going to change your opinion no matter what I put out there. I’ve seen it on FB and media site comments for months now. When my local news posted a story about Baylor students and faculty gathering to walk an African American student to class after she was attacked, commenters called it a fake story, lies, and worse.
I’ve only read one account of someone changing her families’ mind about who to vote for. Many families are bitterly divided right now. Nobody wants to budge. So, no. By all means, don’t change your mind on my account. I will somehow learn to live with that. 🙂
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Been There,,
No worries,, whoever is right or wrong,, we do know what happen to the man beaten was terrible,, circumstances awful and the comments made in the video were hateful.
What bothers me in this thread is the ignorant sexiest and racist remarks about angry white guys voting for Trump.
They ignore the fiscal pain most not Gov’t workers have endured in rural America and force feeding Gov’t over-site down our throats.
They are also ignoring that Trump received 53% male support and 42% female support. The 11% gap seems to exists’ in whatever election. when it comes to party.
Been There,, the economic realities of abused women are real,, their economies got worse under a Keynesian philosophy.
The election was never about economic policy,, which Clinton’s weakness and why she avoided it. It was a battle of Social Ideology,,
Sorry,,but Social ideology doesn’t pay the bills for those living paycheck to paycheck.
I’m sure there are a few Clinton supporters who are married to good men that have a good income. who are respected and loved by their husbands,, where they have the luxury of focusing on Social Injustice (and we need those women to continue to focus on the Injustices, just don’t forget about fiscal injustices),,
A poor abused woman crisis is far more urgent as her domestic “crisis” isn’t going to be deciding on tile or hardwood for their kitchen floor, but rather trying to escape an abusive husband instead of enduring spiritual abuse from chauvinistic Elders in a Church or their Predatory behavior.
Economic poverty is real for the abused and it wasn’t going to improve with Keynesians managing our economy. To tell you the truth,, the Keynesians may have caused the fiscal bubble to elevate too high anyway.
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No candidate is Keynesian. Keynes said that the government should balance out the business cycles by deficit spending when the economy is struggling, and pulling extra tax dollars when businesses are booming. Yet, no candidate is going to run on, “the economy is too good, we need to raise taxes and pay off our debt”. Last President who presided over a surplus was Clinton, and that was more due to a Congress that refused to pass massive entitlement programs, like “HillaryCare”.
The thing that continues to scare me is a small statistic on the IRS pie chart. “Net interest on the debt” is 6% of government spending. Now, consider that the current Treasury interest rate is 0.77%. In the heyday of the Clinton Era, like 1/3/2000, that rate was 6.09%. If we returned to a sane interest rate like that, the Federal government would have to pay 47.5% of its income to service the debt. With an interest rate over 12.83%, which we actually had between 1980 and 1982, the government would be spending every penny just to service the debt. Yet Krugman and his Keynesian ilk want to claim that the Federal debt is a non-issue.
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Hillary, was going to continue using the same Federal Reserve Board doing the same things as Bush #2 and Obama, but embrace Gov’t over-regulated over-site on industry,,
They are Keynesians. (Doves) We need Austrian economic ideology. (Hawks)
Keyns are making the Rich wealthier and the Poor, poorer. Not good for a battered woman who is poor.
It is the President that appoints the Federal Reserve Chairperson and the Senate confirms them.
Aside from Jesus, we are at the mercy of the Fed Chair,, they have admitted repeatedly they know their policies are hurting the middle class, But they also know raising rates would cause homes in saturated markets to go underwater in places like Las Vegas, (Harry Reid) Phoenix (McCain) and California, (Waters, Boxer, Feinstein)
The Federal Reserve meddles to tightly wanting instant results instead of allowing the economy to adjust. It happened when Volcher got way too hawkish raising rates too high and it happened when Greenspan/Bernanke/Yellen became too dovish aggressively meddling with rates too low,, near 0% for 8+ years. This caused a massive rotation of liquidity to be drain out of Main Street and into Wall Street and into Foreign Commodities, making the products they buy less affordable.
Anybody living paycheck to paycheck understands the pain .
When Bill Clinton left office the economy was decent but adjusting with a supply and demand economics. Then in 2001, the economy cooled a little, Bush #2 (eyeing 2004 Presidency) openly complained the economy needed a boost by suggesting rates were too high,, (like only 4%) Greenspan drops rates down to 1% by 2002,
Builders went nuts, building too much, too fast causing a shortage of raw materials, including shipping and fuel to elevate even higher cost, In fact they didn’t have enough buyers from all the homes they built also1% also weaken the dollar,, diluting our currency and decreasing the purchasing power of consumer items and driving home prices through the roof at the same time.
Then they bounced the rates up really high, really fast to 5-1/2% creating more rotation of liquidity and making those cheap but expensive homes unattainable. Then they dropped down too low again and here we are.
The Fed should’ve left rates alone at 4% back in the early 2000’s. If there is a single group of people that caused the meltdown and allowed it to continue, it was the Federal Reserve Board that was appointed by Bush #2 and Obama and confirmed by the Dem and Pubs in the Senate.
This has been a night mare for many and the hardest for the poor, creating more poverty and public assistance.
Poverty is no friend to a mentally and physically abused woman.
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Mark,, you are correct,, Bernanke actually said that we can spend our way into prosperity.
Maybe he is on to something,, we can build up enough credit to have 6 credit cards at 25,000.00 each,, and max them out,, buying a truck and car,, freezers to fill them up with steak, pantries filled with food. wardrobes in different sizes in case of weight gain or losses. Enough propane gas you purchase in advance from the Gas company as many allow that for hedging. Drums of gas. Rack up 150,000.00 in bills,, in about 2 months,, then don’t pay them back,, settle at pennies to the dollar, as the other card holders will pick up the tab.
Keep your job using very little of your paycheck to spend on, but instead save for that vacation house in Kona or Maui,, after 7 years your credit score will recover enough to get your hands on credit cards again, because you are given a fresh start,, by then it will be time to purchase a new car, with a credit card,, (in Hawaii)
Rack up some more credit card debt filling your new Hawaiian home with furniture made from custom mango wood and purchasing a rain water catch system and purchasing solar panels on your home off-grid and live in prosper by settling pennies to the dollar on new credit card debt,, from there on out you can pay cash for food you at the farmers markets of fruit and vegetables that are mostly organic.
In this case we the people are Visa/Mastercard/American Express when it comes to the 20 trillion of debt,, and it looks like the “seasoned” politicians are the card holders and many of them have luxurious lifestyle,, whether they are Dems or Pubs and many of us are wearing the same old crap.
Keynesian Economics is no friend to abused women.
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Mark– governors are chosen for the federal reserve board every 14 years, and the chairman and vice-chairperson must be chosen from governors. So I am not sure that this president can make many changes. Janet yellen has a couple more years to serve too.
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And, if you’re Goldman Sachs, you bet that the government will always bail out the wealthy and leave the citizens holding the bill, making billions in the process. I hate them, but they are so stinking brilliant. They bet billions that the bubbles will burst and then they use their clients’ money to inflate them. They did that for the dot-com bubble in 2000, and then again in the housing bubble.
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Irene and Mark,,
I’m not sure if Yellen can be fired by the President,, Mark,, you are right about Goldman Sachs,, they are calling the shots,, that is why they don’t want things to change,, The President does appoint the Chair.
In the mean time the poor are being enabled and the Gov’t is too broke to help them,,
Now you have me using my monetary thinking caps,, so I go and look on Wikipedia to look up who appoints the Chairperson of the Federal Reserve Board and this is what popped up,,
“The Chair of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System is the head of the central banking system of the United States. The position is known colloquially as “Chair of the Fed” or “Fed Chair”. The chair is the “active executive officer”[2] of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System.
The Chair is chosen by the President of the United States from among the members of the Board of Governors; and serves for four-year-terms after appointment.
As stipulated by the Banking Act of 1935, the President of the United States appoints the seven members of the Board of Governors; they must then be confirmed by the Senate and serve fourteen year terms”
On a side note:
Yellen’s term started Feb. 1, 2014,, so her term will end in over a year.
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The election made me feel sad because all my Evangelical friends were convinced they were doing the right thing by voting for ‘lesser evil’ to prevent ‘greater evil’. I heard more than 80% (not sure exactly ) of Evangelicals voted for this ‘lesser evil’.
I was talking with a 9 year old that I was babysitting and she asked me who I was going to vote for, of the two main candidates. She made it clear her family was for the person most Evangelicals did not vote for. I told her neither. She was shocked and asked why. I explained that, even though the two parties seem to have different domestic policy (they claim), they both have the same foreign policy, and that means that they are both “OK” with war and killing innocent people overseas (for hegemony, Dominionism, procuring assets, controlling economies, etc). In other words, they both hurt people. To even attempt to explain my position to my friends, then I just say, “They both hurt people.”
So I am sad that most Evangelicals went ahead and voted as their pastor told them to, or because it is traditional for American Evangelicals to vote a certain party, believing them to be less evil. As a Christian, following The Way, we are called to NOT hurt people, emotionally, sexually, physically, etc., and no matter how hard the Evangelicals try to vote against the ‘greater evil’, fact is the ‘lesser evil’ party will not stop the hurting of people here in America, or in other countries. The reason for that is, behind all the rhetoric, both parties are not only part of the “kingdoms of this world”, but they are both on the same page ultimately as far as domestic, foreign and Globalist policy. And that means, people will get hurt or will be allowed to get hurt (by the government).
Jesus wants us to stand with ALL the people who are hurt by political bullies, and those who do hurt, as we stand WITH HIM.
Thanks for letting us share!
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Regarding the head of the Fed, that’s a nomination that occurs in a non-election year–every 4th year–for the reason of keeping it less political. They say non-political, but hey, let’s be serious here. I don’t believe the President can fire the head of the Fed, either–maybe impeachment, but we’re talking something serious must happen. I personally favor replacing Yellen with an inflation hawk, but given how much Trump has done with high interest debt, I’m not assured that he’ll move that way.
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Mark –
Speaking of spinning things, I am left wondering how ANYONE could vote for a person who makes fun of the handicapped – publicly. That happened months ago, before everyone learned about a host of other outrageous acts.
You can spend all the time you want explaining economic concerns, but I think the point of this post is that Julie Anne is incredulous that Christians, most who think they are the arbiters of morality, could actually cast a vote of utmost confidence in a man who displayed- to the world! – that he has no integrity, no moral compass, and no fundamental respect for many, many others.
The bottom line is this: you and your ‘brethren’ may not be racists, misogynists, or bigots yourselves but you have to live with the fact that you gave the supreme vote of confidence – and utmost support – to a man who is one.
I, for one, cannot see the difference.
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Carmen,,
This has been a tough election,, I don’t minimize any of your words or concerns, moral character does matter. It can be debatable who’s moral character is the most toxic as the moral character of Mr. and Mrs. Clinton and their foundation and Trump are flawed,
So now that we have establish lack of moral character of both candidates,
I had to decide which candidate’s economic views make the most sense for the working poor,
Hillary’s economic policies were going to continue to enable the poor including making it harder for mental and physically battered woman from escaping abuse.
Unlike Bill Clinton I will say if Trump turns the Oval Office into the Oral Office he is gone,, and truthfully I don’t see Trump as reckless as Bill.
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Obviously, the appointment of Stephen Bannon, the white nationalist, bothers you not at all then.
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Carmen,,
We can find fault in both candidates,, I don’t know Stephen Bannon.. it would surprise me if I liked all of Trump’s choices in his team, as I’m sure I won’t.. I didn’t like Chris Christie..
I’m sure Trump will be more friendly toward Israel as I’m seeing more anti-Semitics with Dems.
What bothers me is the widening gap of rich and poor that is occurring in this economy that is filled with Gov’t over-regulation and meddling of interests’ rates.
Maybe your and my economy isn’t as bad as some,, but my wife and I put up a mentally battered woman, who is broke and there is no opportunity at this moment to better herself. Her ex is also struggling with lack of work.
My mom, endured rejection and mental abuse and had to support me and my brother with no father figure and as she put it,, sympathy doesn’t pay the bills, jobs is what
pays the bills.
We needed the political arena to be more centralized,, not right or left. Hillary is too far to the left, and would’ve owed Middle Eastern serious payback of favors at the expense of the American people,,, I just saw a photo of a woman’s face shattered on facebook by an extremist Muslim when he kicked her,, for wearing shorts.
Middle East countries abuse their women,, and they were buying influence..
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I’m afraid that your dreams of a better economy may turn into a nightmare for many individuals. 😦
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Carmen,,
The working class has been left behind because of reckless economic policy. The Fed has put us in a bubble,, the more easy money dovish heroin they inject into economy the bigger the bubble would get.
The bigger the bubble the worse the explosion when it will burst.. and it will burst.
Now maybe with less Gov’t over-site on industry,, the bubble could shrink a little,,
The economy does better at self-correcting itself in and out of recessions than the Fed trying to micro-manage the economy using an outdated Mandate. The Fed created the meltdown.
Carmen, though we differ in what is best for people in this nations, when it comes to politics we need checks and balances that hasn’t been happening. We need Social Ideologues and Fiscal Ideologues to merge together inside of colliding.
I’m convinced there are plenty of Social Ideologues that will keep a close watch of every single hiccup that Trump experiences
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outsidelookingin722, JA, and Carmen,
Seems that “Leave it at that” is a common thing to say about me!! LOL.
Well, in regards to what outsidelookingin722 had said:
“@Carmen
Yes, I’ve read pretty much all of the comments here.
In particular, I read a person flippantly dismiss a group of women as liars who say they were assaulted even though the man they accused has joked on tape about assaulting women. And I read it on this site, which is a haven for many who have been mistreated and abused.”
My response:
The key word in that statement is “joked”. That is not the same as “action”.
I don’t know how many construction sites folks here have been on, but if you have ever been on one, including sites that your electrical crew works on, to make sure that you have power, you would hear the same kind of talk. Until a woman walks on the scene, then the mouths are completely religiously pious, and polite.
I hope that women are not niave to think that men don’t talk like Trump did, thinking that only I, as a former sailor, or Trump as an entertainer did.
What do people think sailors did on liberty in foriegn ports? Go to church? Well, maybe that is what some told their mothers during that phone call home…but I can assure you…well…I’ll just “leave it at that”!!! LOL.
There is not a man alive that has not thought the same thing as Trump stated, and if they deny it, they are lying, for every man alive and dead are guilty of lusting after a woman in their hearts, for which Jesus classifies as adultery.
I guess no one has ever heard raunchy comedians, to include those such as Eddie Murphy, and Joan Rivers…yes, even a woman had a potty mouth. What a shocker that people think that these comedians have never joked about sex! Oh, I forgot, they didn’t run for president. My bad.
Ed
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Carmen,
I watched “The View” back when Trump and Rosie Odonnel were sparring with each other. I agreed with Trump then, that Rosie is a fat pig.
I disliked Rosie when she had her own show with guest Tom Sellick. All she wanted to talk about was his membership in the NRA, as she is opposed to guns, but he was there to promote a movie. Things did not go well. So, I lost respect for Rosie.
What I am trying to get at, is that we already knew, long ago, about Trump, and to many of us, it does not matter.
And, many of us do not see that Trump made fun of THE handicapped. He made fun of a particular person that just so happened to be handicapped.
This is the issue…you and others see things only one way, whereas others see it totally different.
In regards to “safe spaces” that I saw that someone mentioned, this has been going on at colleges for quite some time now, having nothing to do with Trump.
My response to those who resort to safe spaces at colleges:
What did Cher say to Nicolas Cage after she slapped him in the face?
Ed
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I, like everyone else it seems, went through the grief “cycle” too. The smugness and arrogance of the “winners” really gets to me. I’ve been fighting back with Scripture on many forums, and no one responds. I’ve cited 1 Tim. 3:1-7 which gives details about overseers. For someone supposedly anointed by God, Trump doesn’t match one thing. Nor his wife, according to other passages on the matter (Titus and 1 Peter, I think?).
Then there’s Isaiah 58, which goes into fascinating detail about what it really takes to turn a nation back to God. Namely, stopping malicious talk and finger pointing, standing up for the oppressed, the hungry, the foreigner among you…
I am highly interested in seeing what they’ll come up with next, now that Trump’s nepotism and appointments of some of the most corrupt are happening.
I am so disgusted with this part of the Church, I’m having a very hard time being nice. For 5 years I was a moderator on the Christian Post. The internet feels like the CP blew up and multiplied somehow.
But hasn’t this political outcome been the goal of evangelicalism for 30 years?
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Loura Shares A Story,
Whoever would’ve won would’ve celebrate,, I think there are a lot of voters that are numb like me. I’m not any happier, my life situation didn’t improve. Both candidates were arrogant in their own way.
She was focused on Social Ideology, no friend to Israel and to tell you the truth never gave the impression to a lot of us that she was even a Christian. Some may doubt Trump is a Christian,
If you or a spouse has a nice job or a Gov’t based job in Education or Public Works then you are more set than most of us, because of Health Care/Pensions/Benefits, but a lot of voters weren’t.
So the table was set, the moral character in question of both candidates.
That left us choosing a Social Ideologue leaning Socialistic and a Capitalistic Ideologue. As many of us conceded both moral characters are flawed.
If you or a spouse has a nice job or a Gov’t based job in Education or Public Works then you are more set than most of us, because of Health Care/Pensions/Benefits, unless Gov’t debt continues to grow at the same rate it did during the last 8 years causing the interest payments to exceed tax revenue,
Private sectors jobs are vulnerable under a Socialistic regime.
I know things weren’t going to improve with a Socialist leaning President and they may not improve with a Capitalist, because the Federal Reserve screwed up our monetary system, the bond market is out of whack, which created an environment where banks don’t compete for our savings, offering us 0% yields for our deposits.
Many Seniors vulnerable and working further into retirement competing for jobs they use to create, because they weren’t earning a decent yield out of a Savings account.
Hillary really had it in the bag, had she not ignore the needs of Middle Class workers that were left behind, Her lack of concern of Seniors not earning bank yields.
I read an article that Bill Clinton had urged her repeatedly and “bitterly” to reach out to the Midwest Rustbelt and Coal Workers but that wasn’t in her Sierra Club environmental DNA.
Depending on who Trump picks as a Secretary of Interior. There are several native corporations in Alaska that have been ham-stringed, One in particular that has been trying to get a road built for the last 10 years to get to an airport that I’m very familiar.
This Native Corporation agreed to give a 10 for 1 land swap to the Gov’t and Jewel (under the direction of Obama) has blocked it. I don’t think the next Interior Secretary will be directed to block it from happening. Even Liberal Democrats familiar with the land swap are appalled.
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What does an overseer of a church have to do with being President? I didn’t know that we were supposed to vote for a bishop in chief.
I think that many are getting church leaders mixed up with what it takes to running a country.
Luke 16:1-15
Verse 8:
for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.
Economic security.
In my area, near Seattle, they “think” that they are looking out for the poor, taxing the heck out of everything to help the homeless.
But the homeless are users and abusers of drugs, and they don’t want help, if it means to give up the drugs.
People give from their hearts, when cardboard signs are held up, and these people are making about $200 or more a day in panhandling, and therefore, they can afford to stay high, at your expense, and at taxpayers expense to “help the poor”.
My ex-wife just got out of the drug scene last year, and she tells me about how much money she made panhandling. Hustling is what she calls it. And these people are the same ones that the press classify as “oppressed, homeless, hungry”, and that causes a false sympathy for people who are taking advantage of Christians, for these people are homeless and hungry by choice.
Oh, and by the way, she was selling drugs based on a Mexican Cartel in the area, selling heroin, and meth.
And this gets into the hands of very young school children, and gets them to be addicts. Heroin is an epidemic in this area, and many other states.
I dont’ think that any Sunday School Bishop is going to solve that problem.
Ed
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Ed,
Your comments shed light on the twisted thinking of a portion of tRump supporters. I don’t believe what you are trying to imply about most men. . .they are not all overgrown, hormonal teenagers as you suggest. It’s an insulting and demeaning thing to say, among all the other insulting, demeaning suggestions you have made.
But look – keep talking; it’s really quite insightful.
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So, here are two huge issues I have–
Any public leader who refers to any one as a “fat pig” is most likely not worthy of public office. Even politicians I don’t agree with usually don’t talk about others that way (notice that i said “usually”, not always). However, Trump falls into the category of “usually” when it comes to inappropriate comments.
The disabled person was made fun of because he was disabled-pure and simple. There are laws on the books that call that kind of behavior harassment and he would have been in danger of losing his job in any workplace. I have been a disabled person in the workplace my entire life, and I have no problem calling people out when I feel that I am being discriminated or belittled because I get around with a walker. It’s only happened a couple of times on the job, but if you are permanently disabled, you know why you are being called out for the wrong reason.
I’m not a huge fan of Trump or Hillary. However, although Hillary is far from perfect, she doesn’t usually (notice, the use of usually) take cheap shots at people like Trump does. I think that the the next four years are going to be known as the presidency of buffoonery, although I hope I am wrong.
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Linn,,
Both candidates have said retaliating rhetoric,, Secret Service have been told to F’ off when Clinton was first lady,, Biden dropping the F’ bomb on camera after Obama stuffs the ACA down our throats.
Clinton’s cussing the Joint Chiefs of Staff for showing up in the White House wearing their uniforms, to brief the President.
Then there is the Clinton Foundation accepting millions of dollars from Middle East nations, that hate Israel, Christians and abuse women far worse than the laws would ever allow in America. If Trump was accepting millions these countries you wouldn’t be turning a blind eye.
These nations were buying access and influence into our National Security,, I’m not sure how the Clinton’s are going to pay them back, now that she isn’t President.
I’m sure the rhetoric coming out of Trump’s mouth with subside,, he’ll have hiccups.
Many of us didn’t like any candidate, but when it comes to Capitalism over Socialism,, I’m picking Capitalism.
The poor become poorer in a Socialistic Society,, leaving less hope for an abused poor woman to escape abuse.
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Since many evangelicals viewed Trump as God-appointed to lead our nation back to Him, I believe the overseer verses apply. Even simply talking about a person of character leading as POTUS, Trump fails on all Biblical accounts. Still, many Christians ignored all that, claiming God had and has His hands on Trump. Disgusting. The way Trump has been fawned over and defended, is the exact same way celebrity pastors are treated. The way protestors and critics are demeaned and shut down, is the exact same way those who question the stats quo in most churches are demeaned and silenced. This whole election and continued outcome, is spiritual abuse on a national level.
Trump had no stated policies, is reneging on many of his campaign promises already, and is turning the office into a nepotism-based position.
As far as politics go, I’m a moderate. I don’t necessarily disagree with everything Trump has said, and I don’t necessarily agree with everything Hillary has said. I agree the homeless are not necessarily the victims media portrays them as, and I take a somewhat hard line towards drug abuse. Afghanistan and China are where much of heroin and fentanyl are coming from, in addition to Mexico. I live in the acclaimed heroin capital of the USA! Still, there are a lot of complexities in these matters. I’m writing a piece on it (homelessness) actually, if you have specific sources to point me to.
As regards your other statements about sailors and construction workers, I believe you. Thank God not all, or even most, men are in those fields. There is only one man I personally know who would talk like that and think it funny. Most men I know and love are nice.
How do you expect someone to lead a nation, when he no affection or respect for those (or most of those) he is supposed to lead? And now it certainly seems that Trump is not even taking his new role seriously. Sleep at Trump Tower on weekends? This is not a CEO position.
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Loura,,,
I don’t necessary think Hillary is called by God to be our President either.
She’s not a nice person either. with some pretty despicable insults coming out of her mouth,, her soul.
Her economic views, completely ignored the needs of much of the job starving working class in the rust belt, who rallied for Trump, needing better jobs than flipping burgers at a McDonald’s.
And considering them as “deplorable’s”. The media even insinuating it is the uneducated stupid working class that supported Trump.
“Deplorable” means,, deserving strong condemnation.
synonyms: disgraceful, shameful, dishonorable, unworthy, inexcusable, unpardonable, unforgivable; reprehensible, despicable, abominable, contemptible, execrable, heinous, beyond the pale
Her and Trump’s Christianity is questionable,, so that leaves us with their economic views,, At least Trump didn’t accept any big donor money from Wall Street nor the Middle East, who again, Hates Christians, Israel, and treat women like second class who are powerless when they are beaten.
Trump is a Capitalist, Clinton is an Ideologue, Progressive, Socialist,,,
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Ed Chapman, I don’t know if you’re still reading, but it sounds to me like you’ve been through the wringer with an unwanted divorce and possibly finding out the nastiest way possible that your ex-wife had a substance abuse problem as well.
I hope I’m dead wrong, and of course you owe me no particular response or anything, but if I should happen to be even a tiny bit correct, please make sure that you reach out to those who are your friends and get the help and encouragement you need. I’ve not experienced what i’m guessing you may have, but I’ve seen others go through it and it’s a rough road. Hang in there, and praying for you.
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Ed, your last 2 comments that are still in moderation and actually perhaps some others are not falling within the framework of what I was looking for in this post. This is not a post meant to debate people or to criticize people for feeling emotional about the election results, or ridiculing people for needing “safe places.”
If you are truly saying that men talk casually about sexually violating women in the locker room, you (they) are messed up. That is not normal.
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Julie Anne,
I hate to inform you, but it is normal. It isn’t called “Locker Room Talk” for no reason.
It’s just that women are shielded from it. That’s why it’s in the locker room, or in the case of Trump…a bus.
You may find it offensive, but in the real world, it happens. You may not like it, but it happens…and you know what? Women participate. Women objectify themselves.
Ed
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Julie Anne,
And, I think that college kids needing safe spaces is extremely ridiculous. I just want to tell these kids to grow up and quit whining, because soon they are going to be in the “real world”. They won’t have a safe space in the real world. They have to learn how to fend for themselves.
Remember that Geico commercial that starred that Drill Instructor acting as a therapist? What did he call his patient? A Jackwagon, wasn’t it?
My sentiments exactly. Such woosies. Yes, I demean woosies, just as that drill instructor did. Then he hands the patient a box of tissues, asking, “need a tissue!”
Of all the things to be devestated from, this is it? Really?
Ed
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Ed, I’ve been following the discussion re: locker room talk since Trump’s tapes were released. While the majority of men said that sex was discussed, 100% of the men said they had never participated nor heard any guy talking about sexually assaulting women without consent.
But, please, let’s shift the conversation to the original intent.
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Julie Anne,
And every fishermen caught a fish THIS BIG, too. Not buying it, Julie Anne. I’m a guy.
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Ed,
“And, I think that college kids needing safe spaces is extremely ridiculous.”
This comment is part of the reason why you are in moderation. You show no respect for people who need to create safe emotional boundaries.
Dude, every day I make decisions based on my emotional state. I’ve been wanting to do a post on Tullian for 2 days, but I know my limitations and need to make sure I take care of myself emotionally before delving into a blog post in which I have heard survivors’ stories and their tears. Are you going to ridicule me? Bring it, Ed.
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To that response, I say: what is wrong with you, Ed, that you can joke about sexually violate women with other men. For you to act like this is normal is messed up. It is not normal. Talking about sex with your dude bros is not the same as talking about sexually violating women without their consent. I’m not going to entertain anymore of your comments on this topic. It’s off topic.
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Julie Anne,
No I would not ridicule you. There is a huge difference between your safe space, and the college safe space.
There is a huge difference between your safe space and emotional distraught safe space based on this election.
Therapy dogs?
How about the PTSD that the military go thru, seeing their buddies head blown off? That is real distraught. Election results therapy? No, I don’t get the whining. They are not really traumatized as the military folks that have seen war.
There is no comparrison to these spoiled brats, and you.
I support what you do. Always have. Just don’t always agree with the crockadile tears coming from some people about Trump.
Ed
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Ed, regarding the video clip you sent me privately. These should clear up the video. Did you bother to fact check? http://www.snopes.com/obama-demands-rib/ and https://www.buzzfeed.com/christophermassie/watch-this-rare-recently-surfaced-speech-old-obama-speech-fr?utm_term=.xanbRovN4#.dmVmvReLK
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Ed, I forgot the stats for sexual violence in college, but it is high. Trumps words triggered many women who have experienced sexual violence. It’s not whining. They experienced trauma and then they heard the President Elect say that he was fine with violating women sexually and kissing even married women without consent. You better believe that would and could cause emotional harm to survivors. I sobbed after the election because those women came to my mind first and foremost. As someone who has experienced PTSD and lived every day with imagined earthquakes, I understand how women could be severely triggered by this man. Please learn about PTSD. It extends far more than military. Your wording is horrible, Ed, by calling them spoiled brats.
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What’s there to fact check? Are you implying that Obama disagrees? I’ll leave it at that.
Ed
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Julie Anne,
You had said:
“Ed, I forgot the stats for sexual violence in college, but it is high.”
Ya, just like that fake Rolling Stone story about a woman gang raped that was debunked that had accused a few people of participating in the rape allegations.
The story was totally false, and the female author of the article is in some serious hot water for that article. When asked why she did it, she stated something like, “Well, it’s a true story somewhere!”.
No credibility. I’ll bet rape is lower than what Rolling Stone magazine leads us to believe.
Ed
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Ed, he was reading from a book he wrote saying the words of someone ELSE.
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Ed, SSB (and I) defaults to believing victims because studies show most are true. Please stop the conversation on this. Education yourself.
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Julie Anne,
You had said:
“Education yourself”
I think you meant, “Educate”.
Now, who needs educated? LOL!!
I will close by saying that not everyone who claims to be a victim is a victim. The distraught that I am seeing has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with that Hillary didn’t become the first woman president.
Ed
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Yes, I sure did mean educate. It doesn’t mean I need to be educated, it means I need to proofread my comments, but I’m too lazy.
The large majority of victims who claim to be victims truly are. So it’s vitally important to believe them, first. If they are lying, they will have to deal with that later. All I know is that I told many adults, including police, and child welfare professionals about my physical abuse as a child and I was not believed. I know what it is like and I will never put someone through that if they reach out to me. I will listen and believe them first.
I’ve been watching social media. I do not see people complaining that Hillary lost because she’s a woman, they are complaining about Trump and his words/behavior and wondering how he could be president and also how so many people voted for him knowing about his words/behavior. I have no idea what you are reading.
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“Ya, just like that fake Rolling Stone story about a woman gang raped that was debunked that had accused a few people of participating in the rape allegations.
The story was totally false, and the female author of the article is in some serious hot water for that article. When asked why she did it, she stated something like, “Well, it’s a true story somewhere!”.”
Ed, while it’ IS true that the Rolling Stone article was debunked, that should NOT take away from the very real experiences of sexual assault victims. I admit that I struggle with the question, “what if they’re lying?”. But Julie Anne’s point above, that she told people about physical abuse and SHE wasn’t believed, is vital. It takes tremendous courage to report abuse and when you do and you’re not believed, what then? Where does a victim go after that?
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Here’s how the election has affected one of your sisters, Julie Anne. She asks some of the same questions you asked, in your article. 😦
http://religiondispatches.org/watching-81-of-my-white-brothers-and-sisters-vote-for-trump-has-broken-something-in-me/
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Julie Anne:
You wrote: The large majority of victims who claim to be victims truly are.
If this is true,, then the women that came out and said Bill Clinton had sexually and physically were assaulted who were more of Hillary’s verbal wrath, doesn’t suggest to me Hillary is a champion of victims. And if you were one of those woman who received Hillary’s verbal wrath, you’d probably see what they see.
Hillary was not a nice woman and a lousy economic pick as we are going into a recession,, and Miley Cyrus did cry on TV saying Hillary “deserved” to be the first woman President..
Personally I think this election was crawling with sexism by both men and women that had nothing to do with economic policy.
To Liberals and Conservatives who are living comfortable enough, it probably was about Ideology,, to the Rural and Mid-West worker many of are women who are barely able to feed their families,, Hillary didn’t reach out to them..
Her foundation, through the influence of her Secretary of State position manage to accumulate millions of dollars from Middle East Nations nations that hate America, Israel, Christians and treat woman like crap. These nations give money for influence. If Trump received funding from these nations MSNBC would’ve castrated him.
She isn’t a champion of women,,
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Here’s a story that the national media hasn’t picked up on. As I’ve watched people bicker about who was on the “right” side of this election, I find myself most impressed by a Muslim woman.
She threw herself in front of all 6′ 6″, 350 lbs of him to protect him!
http://www.mystatesman.com/news/news/local/muslim-woman-shields-trump-supporter-as-march-ends/ns79q/
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I posted a poll on Twitter:
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Julie Anne, it would only be the norm for ABUSERS of women, I was abused and raped and as my therapist and pastor would say, ONLY ABUSERS of women do this, NOT healthy Normal men, and there ARE Healthy Normal men
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I agree, mkmfrommnandwi!
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Probably good to remember that what is “normal” is determined by culture. If we as a society decided there was nothing wrong with cannibalism and developed a taste for the “long pig”, that would make man-eating “normal”, but it would of course not make it right. Something of a silly question in my not humble enough opinion. :^)
(of course, I “just say no” to cannibalism)
I get the sadness among many regarding the results of the election here, but to put things in perspective, let’s not forget, again, who the head of Bill Clinton’s “bimbo eruptions” team was. Both major party candidates should give anyone who respects women a touch of nausea.
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Ed, I’m not going to publish your last comment. I am not going to allow my blog to be a place where you get to tell us that it is normal for men to talk about sexually abusing women. Nope, not on my blog.
And yes, I do believe men will be honest on the poll. I cannot see who voted or how they voted.
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I’m not on Twitter, Julie Anne, but if I were, I’d definitely vote “No”. Mind you, as a non-athletic geek, I’ve avoided locker rooms as much as possible for most of my life, so that might bias my answer somewhat. But in all my times there, I’ve never bragged about violating or molesting women the way Trump did.
And, for what it’s worth (since it came up earlier): I’m white, single, middle-aged man. And I can’t imagine that I would’ve voted for Trump under any circumstances.
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Julie Anne,
I’ve never had any locker room experience other than what was required for high school PE classes and that was in the distant past. Never had any use for jock culture or hot cars. In all that time I can recollect only one occasion in which one macho blow-hard made his aggressive sexual proclivities toward females known.
But to answer your question?
An emphatic NO, it is not normal. Men and boys who are taught by their fathers to respect women and girls will not engage in such talk, and if they do, it’s only because they are not strong enough to say no to the macho bullies who instigate it and insist that they be followed.
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It is my belief that the candidates we experienced in the last election, both of which have potty mouths stemming from their hearts, per God’s Word, are actually a mirror image of the cultural norm within our society. Language skills have been reduced to gutter speak as technology advances and the functioning mind of man digresses. Both candidates, as I have witnessed, used deplorable speech patterns that would feel right at home in the bar on a Saturday night. Have a few brews, and even the church elder becomes a verbal sexual pervert, much to the enjoyment of his male and female audience, laughing and having a high ole time. Sunday morning is a different story, however, as the halo is polished and the elder proceeds to read our Holy Scriptures out of the Bible during laity reading time. Jesus knows and He sees.
Another topic that I have found so disgusting, it how our young ladies and young gents speak via their twitter accounts. The conversations, if I could even label them as such, are absolutely deplorable (proper use of the term here.) I had to figuratively pick my molars up off of the floor and cement them back in, for the language they used makes Donald and Hillary look like Sunday School teachers. And the way in which they speak to one another as so called friends, the language they use to speak against their enemies, and their wicked choice of words, really doesn’t give me much hope as an older woman. I am aghast, beyond broken. And these are the siblings of churched folks mind you, not those unchurched folk who are labeled as backslidden/lost.
With that said, I believe the political candidates are a mirror image of the declining decency of our culture. It is a sad, sad day, when sex has replaced the political policies concerning the well being, general welfare of the people of this nation. I lost my health care this year, and to me, that is NOT caring about the general welfare of my family, including myself, but rather an abuse of power.
And before I was saved in my mid twenties, I also believed that abortion was a right based on one’s individual circumstance, and voted for the abortion industry through the appropriate political party who defended these killing fields. After our LORD showed me His truth and I was saved because of Jesus Christ, my whole life changed due to reading His Word, empowered by the Holy Spirit. And because of Jesus, a little precious life was saved; my beautiful daughter. Oh, there is mercy and grace at the foot of the cross. I know this to be true.
Jesus is still on His throne, saving those who are broken. The Glory belongs to God. ‘Nuff said.
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“I don’t know how many construction sites folks here have been on, but if you have ever been on one, including sites that your electrical crew works on, to make sure that you have power, you would hear the same kind of talk. Until a woman walks on the scene, then the mouths are completely religiously pious, and polite.”
It’s interesting, I asked my husband just last night if all men talk like Trump in private. He said, with great disgust, absolutely not. My husband has worked in construction all his life.
Maybe the difference between off-color jokes / admiring women’s physical assets, and bragging about physically attacking women and getting away with it because you are rich and powerful, is too nuanced for some people?
I personally understand many of the reasons people voted for Trump and that they have nothing to do with his outward behavior- the economy, jobs being lost to overseas, losing our health insurance, and many other such things. I can respect those things, but what I’d like to see among Christians who voted for him is a repudiation of the ugly, non-Christlike behavior, rather than trying to normalize it.
1 Peter 2:12,17
Keep your behavior excellent among the Gentiles… Honor all people
Ephesians 4:29
Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear.
If you are walking with Christ, you won’t be calling people “fat pigs” even if you find their behavior and views reprehensible. You can critique the ideas and attitudes you disagree with without resorting to ad-hominem attacks on people that degrade them as human beings.
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Shy !,,
You are right when you wrote: “If you are walking with Christ, you won’t be calling people “fat pigs” even if you find their behavior and views reprehensible.”
The same can be said that if you are walking with Christ, when you refer to other Christians and non-Christians as “Deplorable” if they don’t back their Socialist Ideology or accept millions of dollars from nations trying to purchase influence into US policy that hate Americans, Israel, Christians and treat woman as criminals who get raped.
Actually Hillary, mentally abused a woman her husband raped,,
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@Katy
This is one issue I really wish someone could solve. We can’t afford Obamacare, and we make too much for Medicaid. I don’t believe any political side is ever going to solve this, because the medical field and in$urer$ are intere$ted in one thing only. I just hope we manage to stave off an incurable disease before our kids are old enough to take care of themselves.
Anyway, I’m so sorry you’re in this current position.
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@Shy1
So has mine. I somehow missed what you quoted. Some can be a little crass, though certainly not all of them. There are a lot of decent men who do manual labor for a living. I guess this is supposed to be the new proletariat stereotype?
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BeenThereDoneThat,
You are correct concerning the issue of health care for we are all in need at some point or other in our lives. Each individual is affected. I do not know of the issues concerning Medicaid or Medicare at this point, but am willing to learn.
And thank-you for your compassion; it’s people like you that give me hope that there is goodness, love, and kindness left in some people. It is rare however. When I went to vote this year (reminder: I did not vote in the last two elections), I share our family’s plight with the three administrators working there (they are confessional Democrats), stating that the reason I am voting this year is because I lost my health care due to Obamacare……you could hear the elderly woman making an embroidered satin stitch in her dish towel. Utter silence; no empathy, no compassion, just plain nothing/silence. All three working there are neighbors and faithful church dwellers, and yet nothing. All of a sudden the oak design on their authentic wooden table became the focal point of our conversation.
I too, pray that we can remain healthy and that our country remains safe for our children and grandchildren. We can still be thankful that we are indeed blessed by our LORD and that we know where our eternal home is…in heaven worshiping Jesus.
God Bless you BTDT for you have blessed me this day.
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God bless construction workers too…..you have to be smart as well as a hard worker to endure a labor intense living. More hope!
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I originally didn’t plan on commenting to this thread, until I saw the last batch of comments.
As to the OP: I did not like any of the candidates who ran. I am glad the elections are over, because I was so tired of the campaigning.
Out of all the Presidential races I’ve been through in my 40 some odd years, this was the weirdest and nastiest.
I did enjoy some of the SNL parodies of Trump and Hillary we got, and the “Black Jeopardy” election related skit on SNL (where Tom Hanks pretended to be a Trump voter). That was funny.
(So we at least got some funny stuff out of it, such as this…
_You Tube Link: SNL skit: Black Jeopardy_)
I have family members who have served in the military.
One of my family members was in the United States Navy for over 30 years. While this family member is an “old fashioned” sexist (i.e., he believes men are smarter than women – but he will be a gentleman and open doors for women, etc), he would NEVER talk about women the way Trump did, in such crass terms.
My male military family members would be appalled by that kind of talk about women and don’t engage in it themselves.
So please do not lump all military service members in with Trump. The occupation is not the problem.
Which isn’t to say there are not problems with sexual harassment in the United States military, because there are, but not all military personnel are rapists or sexual abusers. Like any profession, you will find a fair share of bad apples within it, but not all of them behave or think that way.
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(part 1)
The other reason I wanted to chime in on this thread were some of the attitudes I saw Ed espousing, which Shy1 addressed.
Shy1 said,
That is one of the things I wanted to say.
If Ed (who I assume voted for Trump?) wanted to vote for Trump because he thinks Trump would be better in some regards than Hillary (for economic reasons, picking a new SCOTUS, whatever), I don’t have a problem with that.
But please don’t sit there and attempt to defend Trump’s sexist, demeaning comments and treatment of women.
Certainly don’t try to rationalize Trump’s sexism by saying
(1) all or most men behave in that way – and (2) ergo, that makes his sexist behavior or attitudes acceptable.
Ed’s argumentation in that regard reminds me of preacher J D Hall arguing with Janet Mefferd months ago that supposedly all men, even Christian ones, secretly fantasize about raping little girls.
(I am referring to this: _Mefferd Site Link: PREDATORS, DANGEROUS DEVIANTS & J.D. HALL_)
I grew up over -hearing men or teen boys engaging in “locker room talk.” There is a difference between locker room talk and what Trump was saying in that one video and while between takes on his reality show (transcripts of which were published by the media).
Locker room talk is more (I will try to keep this G to PG-13ish rated), something where a teen guy might say to his teen guy buddy,
“I had really super hawt sex with Brenda Jones last Friday. Ooo-weee, she has nice big gazongas that I sure enjoyed feeling up, hunh huh, ha ha ha.”
That is a guy crassly bragging about a consensual sexual conquest to his buddy (which is gross).
What Trump did was brag about sexually assaulting women, the possibility of him being able to do so, or touching women sexually without the woman’s permission. That is not locker room talk. That is bragging about sexual assault. Please do not conflate or confuse the two things.
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(part 2)
Trump’s recorded comments, where he bragged about being able to grab any woman’s genitals, were more akin to that college boy in the news months ago who raped a girl as she was blacked out from alcohol behind a dumpster.
That little deviant’s father wrote a letter to the judge of the case begging for leniency because what his son did to the young lady was “just five minutes of fun and jollies, so don’t ruin my son’s life over that, Mr. Judge.”
(I forget the exact phrasing the dad used in his letter, but it was something like equating rape to an itty-bitty, innocent mistake, or “boys will be boys”.)
I don’t like Hillary Clinton either, Ed, but to water down what Trump did is not right. When you try to minimize or excuse Trump’s obnoxious, sexist comments about women, you sound more like the dad of the deviant college boy I just described in this post. If you are okay with that, that is very disturbing.
Based on our previous chats in older threads regarding pastoral sexual abuse of women, I don’t think you understand what sexual assault is vs. consensual sex, or rape vs. adultery or rape vs. fornication. You seem determined to pin blame on the victims of these incidents.
That the one writer of the Rolling Stone magazine rape article (about a rape at a college campus) may have been lying or making things up for her article does not invalidate that college rape is a very real phenomenon.
Why would you even use that argument? That argument is totally lame.
I am incredibly skeeved out and appalled that you would act like an M.R.A. (Men’s Right Activist) sexist and accuse women victims of just ‘making it all up.’
Rape happens in our culture, and women are not to blame for being raped, either. I don’t care if a woman was out late alone, wearing a short skirt at the time of the attack, or was drinking beer at the time – no man has a right to touch a woman without her full, knowing consent.
I see more a Pharisee-like preoccupation with rule-following from you Ed, than I do in Jesus’s extension on grace (also much black and white thinking; you don’t seem to see shades of grey).
Not that I am a supporter of the “easy, cheap grace” that guys like pastor Tullian T. run around espousing.
But there’s this other extreme, where there’s an obsession of sorts with law and rule following, which can result in a hard heart and in victim-blaming, and that turns me off too.
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(Part 2B)
I said,
I wanted to add something about this. I just saw a headline recently about a European woman who went on a trip to some Middle Eastern nation (that is Islamic).
This woman was gang raped (by two British guys, I have no idea what the guys religious beliefs were). The legal system there (which leans Muslim) charged her with adultery for having been raped, and I think they put her in jail for that.
I found this. Link to a page on The Telegraph:
_British tourist ‘gang-raped’ in Dubai faces jail for having sex outside marriage_
(Similar headline from Daily Mail about another incident:
“Dutch tourist in Qatar [Islamic nation] who told police she had been raped is fined £600 and given a suspended jail sentence for adultery – and the rapist gets 140 lashes” – June 2016)
Is this something you agree with, Ed? Do you think rape victims should be charged with fornication/ adultery and/or thrown into jail for having been raped?
Would you categorize rape as being purely “sex outside of marriage”?
If you would answer ‘yes’ to one or more of those questions, are you comfortable knowing that your sexual ethics mirror those of Muslims more so than that of Christians or the Christian faith?
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(part 3)
I hope it’s okay for me to post this.
I do partially agree with Ed on one point. My estimation of most of those upset by Trump’s election, especially the ones who have been protesting on city streets about it, are by and large, not sexual abuse victims.
Most of the protesters or people with a severe case of the weepies are, I take it, NON-abuse victims, who are college – aged kids, who are angry that their preferred candidate did not win. Most of the kids I’ve seen on TV news who are protesting appear to be middle-class white young adults.
I’ve been a right winger my entire life and was a Republican for a very long time. When Clinton (Democrat) won his first term when I was in college, I was displeased for a short time. I was also unhappy with his second term win, and with both of Obama’s terms in office.
However, I did not fall to pieces over his win at that time, when I was in college (or later), or need a therapy dog, or to play with Play-Doh. I still attended my college classes.
People have a right to react anyway they wish to Trump winning.
However, I find a lot of the responses to be very strange or to be an over-reaction that is not warranted. (Again, I am not talking about sexual abuse victims who say Trump’s comments about sexual harassment/abuse upsets them.)
I’m talking about the “Average Jane and Average Joe” college kids, or 30-somethings, who are marching up and down city streets screaming that, “Trump is not my president!,” who are breaking car windows out of frustration and anger, or whose college professors cancel their classes or tests because they claim to be so upset by an election.
I think where Ed went off the rails on this was to dismiss sexual abuse in general, or sexism, as it relates to Trump’s crude behavior or comments about women. There is no excuse for Trump’s sexism or sexual harassment of women, not even if you think Hillary was the worst of the two.
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BTDT and Katy, we are in the same position with healthcare. We ended up going with Christian Healthcare Ministries and so far, they have been a godsend. Just thought I’d mention.
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Regarding the triggering, I get it that the media portrayed Trump as the devil who had no chance, so I get that, but when people at places like Yale and Michigan Law need their coloring books and puppies despite having more than adequate intelligence to figure out the facts of the matter, I’ve got to wonder whether it’s not being “triggered” at all, but rather an old fashioned hissy fit. Their “triggering” leads them to destroy businesses and burn peoples’ vehicles? Seriously?
Two hypotheses here; I can’t say for sure that either fits, but here goes. First, the phenomenon of “therapy dogs” suggests that a lot of those receiving therapy….may not have loved ones of their own to lean on and at times say “get a grip; all that happened is that we lost an election. The Cossacks are not coming to Anatevka.”
Hypothesis #2 would be that a huge portion of the far left indeed has been the victim of felony sexual assault–far beyond the 25% of all young ladies and to a greater severity–and in that case, you’ve got to ask what is happening there? Does felony sexual assault lead to liberalism, or do left-liberals have high rates of the same, or what? There might be a story there, too.
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Mark, I just don’t feel like bringing up Hillary’s issues is the same as repudiating Donald Trump’s issues. It’s like saying Trump is justified because the other side is rotten. Where does that end? I’m just saying, if you, or others, felt he was the best candidate there was, I can understand and accept that, but don’t gloss over the bad and don’t justify it. Be clear that you don’t support that part of him. Hold him accountable if/when he wrongs others.
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@JulieAnne – “The large majority of victims who claim to be victims truly are. So it’s vitally important to believe them, first. If they are lying, they will have to deal with that later. All I know is that I told many adults, including police, and child welfare professionals about my physical abuse as a child and I was not believed. I know what it is like and I will never put someone through that if they reach out to me. I will listen and believe them first.”
I have gone with the mantra of I choose to believe and risk being lied to than not believe and risk further harm to a person.
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Shy 1,,
I’m not repudiating Trump’s issues,, but the author and most of the contributors of this thread is insulating Hillary’s recklessness which is irresponsible,, She is every bit as toxic.
Trumps issues and behavior should anger us,,, but I think it is unfair and hypocritical to isolate Trump and insulate Hillary. She is no champion to women,, accept maybe abortion,, and those rights aren’t going away with Trump as President.
I thought this thread is open to hearing the opinions from those of us that have experienced abuse.
If I wanted a one sided opinion, I’d go watch MSNBC and watch Rachel Maddow or go to Fox and watch Sean Hannity, not Spiritual Sounding Board,, right now this thread is comparable to MSNBC
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You mean, we should accept YOUR one-sided opinion – is that it?
Obviously it’s time you switched the channel.
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Exactly, Kathi!
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