God’s Design, Homosexuality, Complementarianism, John Piper & Wayne Grudem’s Influence
-by Kathi
This series is a review of God’s Design, a children’s book which teaches children about complementarity. For an introduction of the book, click here. All of the titles below are chapters in the book.
This week children, we will talk about homosexuality. This topic may potentially become heated. I ask that discussion please be civil and hope that we can acknowledge that as fellow Christians (better yet, as fellow human beings), we recognize that we may come to different conclusions. I ask that in our discussion we always maintain that it is the person that God created that is most valued and not our ideas or theology.
God’s Good Design Distorted
This chapter starts off by explaining that male and female elephants make baby elephants and it is against God’s design for an elephant and a camel to come together to make a baby. Well, that makes sense. I mean, can you imagine a camel trying to mate with an elephant? But how do you explain how a mule is made? Sure, a horse and donkey are similar enough to mate, but they are not the same exact species.
Continuing, the authors talk about how it takes a married man and woman to make a baby. Well, unmarried men and women can make babies too, right? But, yes, it does take a woman’s egg and a man’s sperm to make a baby. And, if continuing the human population is all that sex is about, then I guess the book has made its point.
The authors define homosexuality as a girl loves a girl, and a boy loves a boy. Homosexuality is against God’s design and it “brings much sadness and pain.” Just like it is against nature for a camel to elephant to join together. Whispers have s.e.x. If we’re using animals as the example, homosexual courtship and sex is not uncommon in the animal kingdom. The most widely known animals to engage in homosexual activity are giraffes, killer whales, snails, flamingos and dolphins. Of course there’s also Stan and Olli, king penguins at the Berlin Zoo who have never shown interest in other female penguins. How is this part of nature explained to children?
God’s Design teaches children that people who are LGBTQ think they know what is right better than God: they are foolish, their thinking is “mixed up,” they don’t respect God, and they are sinful and sad. It is fully understandable when people do not agree or understand homosexuality. The problem is in the language of “you are foolish” or “you cannot change what God created” or “you are sinful.” This language causes too much heartache in the LGBTQ community as well as resulting suicide, shunning and homelessness.
At the end of this chapter, the authors recommend the book, A Parent’s Guide to Preventing Homosexuality by Joseph Nicolosi and Linda Ames Nicolosi, as if homosexuality can be prevented.
The following activity is also recommended:
With your family, list ten good things about being a boy and ten good things about being a girl. Fathers, do an activity with your son that affirms his manhood; mothers, do an activity with your daughter that affirms her womanhood. Thank God for His good design in your life.
What activities can you think of that affirm gender?
Recovering God’s Good Design
How does one change distorted views of manhood and womanhood? Trust. Trust and obey…for there’s no other way…
The rest of this chapter sets up the next six chapters of the book by explaining what it means to be a man and a woman. When it comes to being a man, the authors refer to John Piper and Wayne Grudem’s, Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Feminism. God wants a man to “lead, provide for and protect” his family. If you want to be a godly man, you must:
Be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong. (1 Corinthians 16: 13, ESV)
Or, is it the NIV version?
Be on guard; stand firm in the faith; be courageous; be strong (1 Corithians 16: 13)
Or, the ISV version?
Remain alert. Keep standing firm in your faith. Keep on being courageous and strong. (1 Corinthians 16: 13)
Or, better yet, The Message version?
Keep your eyes open, hold tight to your convictions, give it all you’ve got, be resolute, and love without stopping. (1 Corinthians 16: 13)
As far as being a woman, again, the authors refer to Piper’s definition of true womanhood. God made women to “be content to support, accept and encourage strength and leadership in a man.” Women seem to have no autonomy but are defined solely by the men in their lives.
To become a godly woman, it is advised to follow:
Do not let your adorning be external – the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear – but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God’s sight is very precious. (1 Peter 3: 3 -4, ESV)
And with these, dear children, we learn to trust Jesus and grow to become the people God designed us to be.
Your final activity from this chapter is:
Boys – talk with your dad about how you can start to practice leading, providing, and protecting your family. Take a practical step toward biblical manhood this week. Girls – talk with your mom about how you can start to practice supporting, encouraging, and helping. Take a practical step toward biblical womanhood this week.
Can you imagine the light bulb turning on for some little boy when he sees how much power he can have over his sister? If a little boy is practicing biblical manhood, does that mean mom has to submit to him? For girls practicing biblical womanhood, what is the line of submitting as a child and submitting as a woman/wife?
****
If you would like to read prior reviews on God’s Design, here are links in the order of the book chapters:
Spiritual Sounding Board 
People are not supposed to learn from animals, because we are not animals (read Genesis 2; we were given the breath of life and told to rule over animals, etc.). (Yes, I know some of us behave like animals 🙂 Some animals eat their young; some devour their sexual partners after intercourse. Do we?
There are sensible, civil ways of addressing sensitive issues such as homosexuality, but this book is not one of them. The “Piper-Grudem” connection (and their man-made philosophy based on the ravings of a heretic) pushes this book to the bottom of the barrel of nonsense.
The issue in this book is deeper than that of being homosexual: it’s about male dominance; of “headship”; of a muscle/fearless idea of masculinity, and it’s about making/creating/forcing man/woman in the image of the writers’ total depravity mindset.
Granted, homosexuality has brought about pain both ways: to those who accept it and to those who don’t, and it has torn apart families for the longest time and will continue to do that. Gentle minds, reason, love, and understanding are necessary to address this issue…not an umbrella-condemning book like this where a false generalisation is simply accepted and presented.
Using words like “foolish,” “mixed up thinking,” and alluding that homosexuals do not “respect” God simply does not indicate a Christian spirit. Who says that all homosexuals don’t respect God? Where are the facts for that? And are all homosexuals “foolish”? The writers outright condemn without thinking of the consequences and without thinking through their absurd examples. One suicide because of the condemning tone would be one too many. This book, on every aspect it wishes to address, is chasing away, cutting off, rejecting…not calling; and that’s not going to bring about any solution.
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Yeah, that oughtta keep those kids from turning out gay. (rolls eyes to the ceiling)
As though homosexual men don’t know they’re men, and homosexual women don’t know they’re women.
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I hate this stuff. None of this is going to stop people from being gay. Honestly, if I thought my only place in life was to ‘be content to support/accept/blablahblah’ a man, I would skip out on the whole thing. So if you want to make people who consciously choose to stay away from men, telling women their only choice in life is to be a prop for one seems like a good way to do it. (it won’t make them attracted to women, but that gets into the whole continuum thing, which I’m not sure I want to get into).
Also what on earth will ‘affirm my womanhood’. Honestly for people who really seem to hate the transgender thing, they sure do talk like being female/male is NOT actually innate or biological, and has to be taught! I don’t have to be taught to be a woman, ya’ll. I got it. And it has nothing to do with stereotypical nonsense.
I realize I didn’t get into the male side, but I do think that stuff is damaging as well. It’s just that men get told that they are in charge, and can be leaders and all that and women get told to sit down and shut up. So it’s a bit unequal.
And yes, all of those animal analogies are pretty stupid. Cross species as opposed to sex? Different stuff. Although, I do wonder if anybody writing these things has been told about Neanderthals…
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I would like to mention what a super terrible no good very bad idea it is to be telling little girls to submit to little boys and men indiscriminately…and what an even worse one it is to tell this to teenagers.
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Yes, that bothers me too. Many people try to suppress what they are feeling for years out of respect for God and what they think God wants. It is not surprising their point on this is not helpful. How bout for children we just tell them to love people? And wait till they’re a little older to figure this stuff out.
I still feel like when they talk about homosexuality, their real agenda is just to reinforce what they want girls to do, so it’s hard for me to take it seriously, but for people who are actually gay I’m sure it is damaging.
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Boston Lady said: “The issue in this book is deeper than that of being homosexual: it’s about male dominance; of “headship”; of a muscle/fearless idea of masculinity, and it’s about making/creating/forcing man/woman in the image of the writers’ total depravity mindset.”
Exactly. The book has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuality. It is all about pushing the agenda that women are nothing more than another species of animal that God “commanded” men to have dominion over.
Their basic premise is: if every boy knows he will grow up to own a housekeeper/sex slave, he won’t be gay; if every girl knows she will someday be some man’s material possession, she won’t turn out gay! I wonder if they have any master/slave cures for anything else in society of which they disapprove?
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One of the ironies is that a patriarchal society does not prevent homosexuality at all. In fact, it is often accepted among certain levels of the caste system. This was a real shocker for some medical humanitarian groups that went to Afghanistan during the early days of pushing the Taliban to the hinterlands.
There is an entitlement mentality in very patriarchal societies when it comes to gratification from sex.
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“I would like to mention what a super terrible no good very bad idea it is to be telling little girls to submit to little boys and men indiscriminately…and what an even worse one it is to tell this to teenagers.”
Yes! Teach them to highly value themselves and say no….a lot.
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I would like to hear other people’s opinion but I generally don’t think it is a great idea to introduce homosexuality too early unless there is a clear reason to do so. I preferred my children know “individuals” first. My daughter was 9 or 10 before she asked why a neighborhood playmate had two moms.
I wanted the kids to have the sense we look at actual people first. Not their skin color or sexual orientation. I realize this comes up much earlier for some kids at school. In public middle school here it is all the rage to proclaim your orientation to your class mates. Being gay is very right cool now.
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This is very true.
But then, I never thought preventing homosexuality was actually the goal. (I don’t think it’s possible either)
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I find it troubling that they focus on “mixed-up thinking” as the cause for homosexuality. That makes the “cure” for homosexuality somehow fixing bad thinking. Instead, homosexuality is a deeper result of the Fall – that our genetic code has also fallen and that we can pass things like hemophilia, Down’s syndrome, autism, predisposition to cancer and such things to our children. Then, we recognize this as the work of the enemy and not God’s handiwork, and it’s not a result of “mixed-up thinking” as it is a lifelong fight against one’s nature.
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Sigh… ugh, this book…
My impression of this book so far is that it is intended for fairly young children. Is it really necessary for them to delve into the topic of homosexuality at that age? It seems the only purpose is for them to be able to identify people who have something “wrong” with them that they can look down on and develop hate and fear towards. The second issue I see is that if any of the children reading this book feel some leanings towards homosexuality – or more likely, start to imagine they do based on these superficial constructs of what it means to be male or female – it could lead to a lifetime of needless guilt, shame, and depression for that child.
I really don’t think the writers or the mindset they represent have any idea how people become gay or why. They seem to think if they instill enough fear and disgust it will prevent the “problem.” I don’t think it works like that at all.
And good luck listing 10 good things about being a girl after reading this book!
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Shy1: “And good luck listing 10 good things about being a girl after reading this book!”
That’s all I’ve got.
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Seriously, WordPress!! Changing the numbers to letters. That bugs me and my numerical list making brain every time!
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lydia00 – Allowing children to see people as individuals first. That’s the marvelous beauty of a young child. They often don’t see differences, they only see people.
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*Just to clarify, I didn’t word my comment above very well, I don’t think people “become” gay as in, thinking it over and deciding that’s what they want to be. I should have said ‘how or why people are gay.’ Peoples’ sexuality is a hardwired part of the brain and can’t just be changed. Maybe it’s inborn, maybe it develops very early, in infancy, I don’t know, but either way it’s not a conscious choice that a person can think over and just decide differently. There are so many stories of gay believers trying -sincerely- to change and it leading to tragedy or hypocrisy.
There is also a huge misunderstanding among this mindset of what gay actually is, they roll it all together with pedophilia and predation, which it is not.
Strangely enough, the people who are most anti-gay tend to be the ones who will overlook and cover up for pedophiles. What a paradox.
Why can’t we just love one another?
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As far as the book and comp doctrine is concerned, homosexuality fits in because it goes against God’s design for procreation. Again, if sex is only about procreating, then talking about homosexuality fits right in. However, I have heard Piper talk about the wonder and beauty of sex, so obviously sex to comps means more than just procreating. But who wants to listen to Piper talk about sex?
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Some of them seem to see it as a way of ‘encouraging/supporting men’.
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Ooh, Lea, Reformed/Calvinist theology and sex are a dangerous topic, probably one of the MAIN causes for this blog. Me, Tarzan…You…lie…or else.
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I still can not understand why women want to get married AFTER being taught this? If I had heard these things as a young woman I would have avoided marriage at all costs. Please, I’ll take singleness instead!
That is not to mention how horribly cruel a child COULD be to a homosexual after hearing this message. Wrong approach. Just wrong. Teach love one another. Maybe start there. Crazy idea, I know.
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Toiler, I’m with you but you have to take these writers’ theology into consideration. They have many names: CONTROL Squad, FEAR Bears, Philosophy KINGS, Pharisees, GOD’s Personal spokespersons, etc. and then the two I always mention…but I don’t even want to, what the heck: Reformed/Calvinist. See what you made me do!
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Ok, Kathi- You win!! After today’s post, I bit the bullet and got the book on kindle. Why? Because I couldn’t wrap my head around the idea that such a children’s book would exist!! I have read the beginning and am horrified. This is a children’s book? Now, I am not a prude. In fact, I started talking to my son about the purpose of his testicles when he asked at three and gave him the the basics of sex before he entered school.
I wanted him to learn it from me first, not from another six year old. However I would prefer a six year old’s mixed up version of gender and sexuality to this terrible book. Kids go through all type of developmental phases. If you throw in the gay thing too early (before they ask questions), they can develop tremendous shame and confusion. Who hasn’t had a crush on a same sex teacher in elementary school? Pre-teen female relationships are emotionally highly charged. Some pre-teen boys sexually experiment with each other. All these things can happen with heterosexual kids. Unless your child has questions, this teaching can be very confusing to a developing child. Also with the book’s shaming, any child who “colors outside the lines” will feel inadequate.
If your child does believe he/she is gay in adolescence, by all means listen and discuss their concerns and desires. By this time, it is easier for them to work through their choices. Otherwise, social behavior and outside interests of a child is not determined by gender or necessarily indicate sexual preference. I could rant even more, but I have taken up too much space already.
Kathi, thank you for this review. I hope you are properly ” suited up” whenever you open the book. I would hate for you to catch something nasty from these writers! 😉😉😉 Ann
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James Dobson says fathers should shower with their sons so the boy can see daddy’s manhood.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/23/541003/-
That doesn’t sound a bit creepy, does it?
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Btw, I read that Dobson got the above advice from A Parent’s Guide to Preventing Homosexuality by Joseph Nicolosi, which is recommended by the book in the OP.
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Kathi! Remember? Sex–and everything else–is whatever the man you are with decides. He is free to care about a woman or not.
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I used to sit in meetings where I was not permitted to talk and wonder what it felt like to be a boy. Junior high boys In leadership training could talk and request songs and my daughters and I couldn’t.
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Irene, fully agree. I read a good article on patriarchy that said it’s not just women that are victims in patriarchy. There is a leader caste in the patriarchal system, and only the leaders and those being groomed for leadership are in that caste.
My experience was that I was borderline in/out of that caste growing up, based on what group of people I was with, and it was hugely confusing – sometimes I spoke up and people were encouraging, and sometimes I spoke up and got treated like I should know it wasn’t my place. My old church was wacky that way. I was clearly being groomed for leadership and everyone was very encouraging that way. I left for a job elsewhere and returned about 10 years later to find that I was definitely NOT being considered for leadership and there was a growing animosity towards me whenever I spoke, especially when I disagreed with one of the men who WERE being groomed for leadership.
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Oh, Irene. Silencing half of the church. How incredibly humiliating for women. It makes me so angry!
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Ann – Thanks for the “win!” LOL!
As for “properly suited up,” I find wine to be very helpful. And, there are times such as this past week where there was too much other heavy stuff going on that it had to take a time out in the corner. I have high tolerance of pain and extra-nonsense stuff, but sometimes I choose to take a break because it gets to be too much.
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That whole, fathers do an activity with your son that affirms his manhood; mothers do an activity with your daughter that affirms her womanhood thing, makes me laugh a little bit, because it reminds me of the stories of parents sending their gay child to a same-sex school. As if surrounding them with people they are attracted to will rid them of the attraction!
But of course these gender roles, as you point out at the end, are just as much about your relation to the opposite sex as your existence as your own sex.
I’d like to add as a lesbian raised complementarian, it’s not something parents can avoid. If it had been about parenting and teaching, I’d be straight. I hope no parents feel guilty due to this teaching; as if it’s something they could’ve prevented. You just can’t.
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I just couldn’t figure out if you disagreed with/mocked the book and its author, or God and the Bible or (seems like) all of the above.
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OP:
The complementarians confuse their preferred gender roles for women for what they think the Bible says on the topic.
I grew up as a tom boy – I preferred toys, games, and clothing that were considered more boyish. I didn’t like to dress up as a Princess on Halloween, nor did I like playing with Barbies.
(By the way, this year is the first year that Princess costumes for girls have gone down in sales – super hero costumes are out-selling Princess ones for girls.
Your average complementarian would probably try to force little girls to choose a Princess costume, to enforce the “all girls and women are helpless and need to be rescued by a prince” motiff. The complementarians are really losing the culture war.)
When I was a little girl, I was interested in things deemed boyish, such as Batman comics / Batman TV show, Star Wars, and sports cars. (And I happen to be hetero.)
God did not design girls and women to prefer pink to blue, or playing with dolls to playing with Batman action figures, sorry complementarians.
Then, you’re going to have hetero boys who are not interested in stereotypical manly man pursuits such as watching NFL.
I’d say that someone is homosexual doesn’t have a problem with their own gender, which is what their assignment appears to suggest. This line, for example:
I think a boy who has homosexual attractions already digs being a boy; he finds other boys sexually or romantically appealing, for pete’s sake.
If you’re trying to get a kid to be attracted to the opposite gender, wouldn’t it make more sense to ask the boy in what ways girls are great?
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Original Post (about the complementarian book):
Some women never marry and/or their father dies, and they have no other male relatives. What about them?
Oh, that’s right, unlike the Bible, complementarians view women only through a prism of ‘Wife And Mother.’
There is no such woman in the Complementarian universe as a Never Married Woman, Widowed Woman, Infertile Woman, Child-Free Woman, or a Divorced Woman.
About women needing to be protected, and so on. That is called Benevolent (or “ambivalent”) Sexism, and it’s not a biblical view, nor is it God’s design.
_Why Doesn’t Spending Time With Women Make Men Less Sexist? _ – (from NY Magazine)
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Quote from the book:
He’s endorsing codependency for girls there – telling girls, basically, do not be assertive, never get your own needs met, only meet the needs of other people, etc. None of that is biblical, either.
Being codependent is not “biblical,” to John Piper, or whatever complementarian wrote that.
_Christian Gender Complementarianism is Christian-Endorsed Codependency for Women (And That’s Not A Good Thing)_
by the way? Sometimes as a woman, I would sure as heck use some support, help, and encouragement.
My ex (who was a MAN) refused to give me any support or encouragement. Sometimes, women need stuff like that too, it’s not just men that need it or want it.
Near as I can tell, God designed men and women to be INTER-dependent.
There will be times in life where a man can use or need help or encouragement from a woman, but there might be times when a woman needs that same stuff from a man.
But gender complementarians have these weird, unrealistic, stiff, qualities divvied up rigidly by biological sex.
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Kathi said,
I can tell you that celibate Christian adults who have sex drives don’t want or need to hear him or any other talking head talk about it, but they never do.
Unless it’s to condescendingly pat us single adults on the heads to tell us our “singleness and celibacy is for God’s glory.”
I don’t care about “God’s glory.” I’d rather be married to a good looking guy and having sex with that guy, thank you.
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Correction, where I said, ” but they never do.”
I meant they ALWAYS DO.
Many preachers today never stop talking about sex. They rarely acknowledge how hard it is to be over 35 and still celibate because some folks cannot find a Mr. Right.
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Toiler said,
I’ve made that point more than once over at the other blog.
More and more Christian single women are leaving complementarianism and refuse to marry comp men.
So, I have no idea what comp men are going to do when there are less and less comp women to marry.
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Mark said,
Custis-James has made this argument repeatedly in various articles where she is interviewed. I think she wrote a book on the topic as well.
_On Biblical Manhood: A Q&A with Author Carolyn Custis James_
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Voice of reason
Outside of being afraid of secular culture, wanting to fight secular culture, and keeping women under the control of men, I can’t figure out why gender complementarians mock God and the Bible by making up so many sexist, un-biblical rules and ideas about gender roles the biological sexes – maybe you have some ideas on that?
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Voice of Reason: Seems an interesting choice of a screen name for someone who want to simply assert something to be true based on their own authority.
I was raised complementarian by parents who were pretty reasonable, but as I have done more study, I realized that much of the “sound, Biblical parenting” conservative churches are proclaiming these days comes from the pages of behaviorists who believe the epitome of good parenting is making your kids into whatever you want them to be despite their desires, aptitudes or whatever. If you baptize that with a few verses that suggest that men ought to take charge in the house and women ought to do whatever the man in their life tells them, then you have modern complementarianism, preached by Piper and his ilk as straight from the Bible.
In fact, it seems each generation isn’t complete without finding some “Biblical truth” that a select few get that the rest of the world is missing – like the generation that was taught that their children would become Atheists if they went to public school or public university, and only Christian schooling or homeschooling could save the souls of their children. Or the generation that was told that courtship was the solution to unhappy marriages and the high divorce rate. How about the generation that was taught that “vocation” was God’s call on your life, and that it was okay to spend 50, 60, 70 hours a week away from family because that was service to Christ?
Just like in Italian paintings, Jesus looks Italian, and in French paintings, Jesus looks French, and in American paintings, Jesus looks American, we shouldn’t be shocked that we have a set of Biblical values more influenced by the culture we live in than by what scripture actually teaches.
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Ann, although this is a child’s book, the philosophies are shared by the parents who would teach their kids these ideas anyway. The scientific truth seems to be that gender exists on a spectrum (rather than the more black and white type of genders the comp camp promotes).
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Kathi – you were brave to broach this sensitive topic. Thank you so much for dealing with it head on. We need to discuss these important issues. I’m so pleased to see the respectful comments (well, almost all).
A few months ago, I had a long talk with a young man whom I’ve known since he was a little boy. He is gay. I finally reached out to him on Facebook and asked him about how he came out to his family (staunchly conservative Baptist family). We spoke for a couple of hours. Many times I was in tears listening to him as I was trying to imagine what he had gone through.
His relationship with his parents is guarded, and they avoid the gay topic. One of his brother and his wife reached out to him and has supported him. Another brother has shown disdain now that he has come out. His younger sisters are still at home under their parents and are shielded from him. He is around the same age as a couple of my kids and since our kids grew up together, he seems a bit like family to me.
The one thing that he said to me that hit me hard was this: if he had a choice to be gay, he never, ever would have chosen to be gay. The heartache and even near suicide experiences he shared with me convinced me that he was indeed telling me the truth. I was grateful that he was willing to share his heart with me.
Anyway, it’s clear that the authors of God’s Design think that being gay is a choice or they never would have recommended the book, A Parent’s Guide to Preventing Homosexuality. I’m sad and even angry at the church at how they label and marginalize gays. It grieves my heart to think that gays raised in the church can be so isolated, treated horribly, and especially how they are sometimes shunned by church and family. That is not love.
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So not only do females have to “…support, accept and encourage strength and leadership in a man,” they have to be content to do so. Mind control. This stuff is so sick.
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Voice of reason – Come back at me with a reasonable argument and I’ll have a conversation with you. Until then, I’ll (we’ll if anyone wants to join in) assume that conversation would be pointless.
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Persephone – Whatever you do, don’t go checking out Lori Alexander’s blog, The Transformed Wife. She is so fun of contented full servitude to your husband that it makes me sick. I have nothing against women staying home to raise children and take care of the home. I did that for many years. It is a wonderful, sacrificial thing for everyone in the family. I have a problem when this is the prescribed role for a woman, as if this is the only thing in life she was created for. And, for comps, this is how it is.
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Julie Anne – It’s heartbreaking when you hear a person come to the point of suicide when they feel that they can’t be fully accepted for who they are. And, often self-acceptance is the hardest when one has grown up in a fundamental religious home. Thanks for being one to listen without judgement and offer love and support.
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“I would like to hear other people’s opinion but I generally don’t think it is a great idea to introduce homosexuality too early unless there is a clear reason to do so. I preferred my children know “individuals” first. My daughter was 9 or 10 before she asked why a neighborhood playmate had two moms.” – Lydia00
My twin sister and I figured out when we were about 3 years old that an aunt was gay. We’d even discussed it, but not exactly in those terms. Our brothers, on the other hand (one older and one younger), had NO clue until they were in high school that she was gay. My twin and I said to them, “How could you miss it? We figured it out when we were 3 years old!” But miss it they did.
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“Their basic premise is: if every boy knows he will grow up to own a housekeeper/sex slave, he won’t be gay; if every girl knows she will someday be some man’s material possession, she won’t turn out gay! I wonder if they have any master/slave cures for anything else in society of which they disapprove?” – Nancy2
Yes, Nancy2, as a matter of fact they do have a ‘master/slave cure’ for other problems. These same guys who promote Patriarchy believe that the United States government as we know it should be overthrown (including state and local governments), that their own friends (starting with 10 men in each local area) should take over, and that they should control the government under a theocracy, and that any NON-Christians [I guess anybody not in agreement with them] should be enslaved.
This same group denies that the Holocaust took place.
And this same group brought to us the Chicago Statement/Inerrancy of Scripture nonsense, just their way of trying to get street cred(ibility) in my opinon. That’s why I reject the whole I.O.S. argument.
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Velour This same group denies that the Holocaust took place.
And this same group brought to us the Chicago Statement/Inerrancy of Scripture nonsense, …
You are not seriously going to try to tell me that the signers of the Chicago Statement consists of those who deny the holocaust took place. That is a very serious accusation to make.
Shouldn’t the whole discussion of whether the bible contains mistakes be centered on the bible, not who happens to hold that it doesn’t contain mistakes or is ever misleading?
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Kathi But who wants to listen to Piper talk about sex?
There is an answer to that … 🙂
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I know that it’s mighty popular right now to be tolerant of homosexuality.
That is, to have a “just be you” mentality when asked about it.
I see acquaintances of mine revelling in this lifestyle on social media. There is something very creepy and sinister about the images I’m confronted with and I certainly don’t feel compelled to encourage this lifestyle or behaviour if asked my views.
If a married, heterosexual friend asked your opinion on adultery because they fancy someone else’s husband and would like a bit on side, what would you say?
“Just accept who you are and be you!”
Of course not.
The Scriptures are clear that lust is very real.
There is nothing within me that finds two men being intimate lovely or natural.
Nor two women.
Is it so evil to state this? To suggest that this is lust and lust brings forth sin which leads to death?
What do you think?
I don’t use abusive and condemning language when discussing homosexuality with others but I certainly don’t think the behaviour is honouring to the Lord nor I do I think God wants me to ‘tolerate’ or normalise it.
This is not unloving.
do you think I am wrong? Genuinely interested if anyone thinks my perspective is not godly
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Salty, I can hear your dilemma only too well. It seems to me homosexuals are professionally offended, and can use emotional blackmail to avoid any criticism of their lifestyle, however graciously made. The reaction of the men of Sodom to Lot This fellow came to sojourn, and he would play the judge is completely up-to-date.
Not so very long ago I did manage a discussion of the subject on a secular forum including with gays who did not resort to calling me a homophobic bigot; it does require wisdom and a willingness to listen to achieve this, but I would say this is getting harder and harder as the expectation of tolerance gives way to positive affirmation of homosexuality being the only ‘correct’ attitude. I don’t think it will be possible much longer. Tolerance excludes Christians!
That doesn’t mean some sectors of the church have not been unwise or unloving in their attitudes, reactionary even, but I have to say personally I have never seen this. The subject was almost never mentioned until it became an issue in mainstream culture.
The issue for Christians first and foremost is what the bible has revealed as the will of God on this issue, just like any other moral issue. Personal (dis)taste is not the point. I don’t think the bible is at all unclear on this, and I have carefully read the attempts to revise its teaching to allow such activities.
Since eternal destiny hangs in the balance as the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, it is not unloving to have to say homosexuality, like adultery or a life time of greed and thieving, is sin that needs to be turned away from. It shouldn’t be singled out, nor buried. I don’t think you are being at all unloving.
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KAS, I don’t mind if my ‘neighbours’ wish to use their bodies in these ways.
But they should be willing to pay for the medical consequences of their actions.
I cannot understand why the tax payer must pay for sexual health clinics.
Where I’m from there are dedicated clinics for the sexually promiscuous to be fixed of their STDs.
When I raise this point with pro-homosexual or pro-sexually licentious people they seem to display an expression which is 😳 It’s as if they cannot discuss the medical consequences of sexually immoral behaviour.
This is the avenue I take.
Stating, “it’s wrong and God hates it” doesn’t seem to work so I just talk about the medical side of it.
If the behaviour was good… there would not be medical clinics to solve the problems that arise from the behaviour, would there?
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Salty,
It’s in the attitude of the discussion about homosexuality, adultery, etc. No, I don’t think you’re “wrong.” I think we’re talking about the spirit of condemnation (without having the proper facts with it; every case is different because we are all different) that this silly book reveals. This is a little book of indoctrination, of blatant putting women (little girls) down and in their “proper” “godly” place while they are still trying to figure out how to sit and “wee wee” on their own (“God’s Design: Making Him Know” is “recommended” for families with kids ages 4-12, especially ages 6-10).
Lydia is right; many of the topics in this book are way too early to discuss with kids this young, so what then is the agenda here? It’s obvious. And it’s dangerous, and it’s going to manifest in the lives of people later on and cause many tears down the road. Let’s hope Kathi explores all 120 pages of this particular book of the series.
Salty, your attitude about what you believe is not condemning; it’s civilized. Don’t worry. 🙂 Many share your views, but this specific issue is not about the views or the Bible.
Have a look at some readers’ reviews of this book on Amazon:
Let me say this: Had one of my children been given this book, I would have returned it with a special little note of my own: “Back off!”
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In my opinion, I’m not the enforcer of God’s law…the Holy Spirit is and brings conviction. I can simply state what the Bible says about homosexuality and let God do His thing. My thing is to be truthful and loving to ANYONE in ANY sin. That does not mean condoning it, but that means loving them where they are and TRUSTING God to do His work. If loving my fellow human being LOOKS like I’m tolerant, than let the HS be the judge of that.
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“Yes, Nancy2, as a matter of fact they do have a ‘master/slave cure’ for other problems. These same guys who promote Patriarchy believe that the United States government as we know it should be overthrown (including state and local governments), that their own friends (starting with 10 men in each local area) should take over, and that they should control the government under a theocracy, and that any NON-Christians [I guess anybody not in agreement with them] should be enslaved.
This same group denies that the Holocaust took place.
And this same group brought to us the Chicago Statement/Inerrancy of Scripture nonsense, just their way of trying to get street cred(ibility) in my opinon. That’s why I reject the whole I.O.S. argument.”
What is I.O.S.?
My goodness. That is quite the stretch. So every signer of the Chicago statement denies the Holocaust and wants a Theocracy? Same people, right? Put everyone who desires we put the brakes on an oligharcical runaway Byzantine government in that category? They are all white christian supremacists? (This thinking is one of my arguments for seeing people as individuals not groups)
Btw, What is the difference between a theocracy and and oligharcical socialism if we are looking at groups? Not much except the oligharcical socialists have more power over your opportunities and means of income and put themselves above the laws they pass for us . The only real resulting difference might be is that you like the controlling oligharchs? IMO, These groups are more alike than different. Both want to control for personal power and gain and seek pliant followers.
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Salty – I think the verse You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination gives a clue as to why God detests this activity, namely a man is trying to be something he is not, namely a woman. This may not be a major theme in the bible, but it is a consistent theme. Unisex and confusion of male and female is out.
I know what you mean about the health side of promiscuous sexual activity. When I had my discussion I referred to earlier, at that point 16 million gay men had died from AIDS alone, let alone all the other common diseases they tend to suffer from. And they are on average some 0.70% of the population. The horror of this is buried out of sight, swept under the carpet. The reduction in life expectancy is about 20 years, worse than cigarette smoking.
It’s difficult to think of a better example of what happens when we ignore the maker’s instructions for morality, including promiscuous heterosexual activity as well. We ignore this at our peril.
With regard to the chapter in the book, I’m not sure at what age this subject needs bringing up with children. Perhaps it would be best on a need to know basis, but there is no doubt in my mind the homosexual lobby wouldn’t hesitate to present their way of life as natural and healthy at every opportunity.
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“Lydia is right; many of the topics in this book are way too early to discuss with kids this young, so what then is the agenda here? It’s obvious. And it’s dangerous, and it’s going to manifest in the lives of people later on and cause many tears down the road. ”
I honestly don’t think Piper (his minions) and most evangelical churches are doing anything different than the culture. When I take a birds eye view of all of it I see a laser like focus in sex. Period.
It’s like telling kids to not think pink. Stay away from pink. Only think pink when married. What do they end up doing? Thinking pink. All. The. Time.
It’s why I disdain youth groups.
But the focus on sex and objectification is all over the culture. They can’t escape it so the church uses a dont think pink strategy thinking that works best but they end up doing the same as culture.
I am NOT advocating we not discuss it all. But a proper place? Demystifying the whole thing helps. As does encouraging mind expanding pursuits during brain development years. Our youth should be dreaming of science, art, new inventions, etc, etc. Sex is one part of life but treated by church and culture as if it is everything TO life.
I joke with my teens that many of the old couples they know have had hot jungle love sex in their life/marriage and look at what they accomplished because they put it in perspective and built professions and decent lives. They say, ewwww. Hee hee. But I hope it gets them thinking in perspective. :o)
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“Since eternal destiny hangs in the balance as the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, it is not unloving to have to say homosexuality, like adultery or a life time of greed and thieving, is sin that needs to be turned away from. It shouldn’t be singled out, nor buried. I don’t think you are being at all unloving.”
Personally, I don’t think it is my business from a civil realm perspective. Just as I don’t want that movement being thought the police for me in forcing me to publicly embrace it or I am automatically hateful and want to kill people. That is the message if you don’t promote it.
As human beings and citizens in a representative republic, they should have the same rights. But Not special rights. All crime against others is “hate”. Every person deserves to be treated with dignity until they trample yours with special rights you can’t have. We don’t live in N. Korea or an Islamic country. Yet.
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Lydia,
Sex is why Cosmopolitan, Women’s Health (heehee; oxymoronic little title there), Marie Claire and the whole bunch of ’em are unfortunately still around. Take a look at the latest Cosmo’s (editions may vary) cover for instance. SEX.
And who buys this junk? Women.
Youth groups? Oh, don’t let me start with those… Your disdain is mine too.
But I’m going off topic because I’m thinking pink. See what you’ve done? 😉
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I think some things should be talked about when they naturally come up, but there is no reason to obsess over them. Sex, homosexuality…that’s in that category. When your kids are starting to be interested, maybe it’s time to talk. When Susie down the street gets married to Jane, maybe an age appropriate explanation is in order.
Salty, I get where you’re coming from. I also know there are people who are born gay, and we will be living with them, they will be in our families…etc. None of the advice I’ve seen coming out of this sector of Christianity is helpful because I don’t think this is a thing that can be ‘fixed’. And when people try to marry someone of the same sex when they don’t feel it, the results can be SO damaging to them and to the poor spouse who will never be loved properly.
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Boston Lady said:” Let me say this: Had one of my children been given this book, I would have returned it with a special little note of my own: “Back off!””
Personally, I would have said, “Oh good! Now I have lots of papers to put in the cats’ litter box”.
(But I think that we have long ago realized that Zooey is a cranky old lady with a tongue that 😉 biteth like an adder.)
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Zooey111: Cranky? No, just honest you are.
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Lea, I understand there are homosexuals who say they are born gay.
I understand that Trans people also feel they were born in the wrong body.
And Anorexic sufferers are fat when they are not.
I don’t believe God creates men and women as fornicators or idolaters so I do not believe that God is responsible for men and women turning out Gay.
I believe these people are deceived.
Just as a relative of mine justifies her adulterous relationship and is completely in denial that her lifestyle choice is against God’s guidance.
I appreciate you probably disagree with me.
I understand it must be frustrating for gay people to be told that their desires (lusts) are not natural and acceptable.
But it is what it is.
Jesus died for sinners.
The Bible defines what behaviour is acceptable and what is not.
Our feelings don’t determine truth.
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“Lea, I understand there are homosexuals who say they are born gay.
I understand that Trans people also feel they were born in the wrong body.”
There have always been hermaphrodites, for example, so we aren’t going to solve the origins of this issue on this side of Jordan or how much is nature vs. nurture.
My problem with it as a social issue is how much it has been promoted to children/teens when they are not physically or mentally developed enough to deal with it. It falls into that category of making sex/gender the issue of life. And both sides are guilty of this in the larger culture.
One of my teens has a transgender friend at school under going the gender transition process leading to eventual surgery. This teens parents started the transition process at 14. I don’t know what to make of it and would not dare ask. All I know is this human is precious and must be treated with dignity.
I understand that many don’t feel they fit into their gender category. But I do question the pervasiveness of this. I think we make too big a deal of it as a “social issue” whether it is the gay lobbyists or evangelicals. Why not focus on individuals as they are? Their interests, abilities, etc? Can wevHave equal rights in the civil realm and be done with it? I am concerned we have “over corrected” into the realm of “suggesting” and “convincing” when there are really different interests and abilities that don’t fit well in certain categories. I am around the secular artistic world a lot and I see lots of mass confusion on this issue with teens. I have also seen very bad bullying from lesbian teen girls to non lesbian teen girls. So the fallout is not one sided. The non lesbian teen girls would not report it for fear of being labeled homophobic. That is death to college entrance.
Why can’t we be “human beings” first?
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Lydia00 – Peter Hitchens, brother of the deceased new atheist Christopher Hitchens, who turned from atheism back to the Christian faith originally thought the gay issue was important to make a firm public stand on when it came to opposing gay marriage.
He susequently changed his mind, not in the sense of thinking Christianty should approve of such a relationship, but because the sheer numbers involved – homosexuals are a tiny proportion of the population and those actually wanting ‘marriage’ to express commitment even smaller – made it an issue not worth spending too much time and resources on. There are bigger issues the church has to face, including, for example, the diminishing of freedom of speech.
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I see transgender issues as very different, personally, but ymmv on that. I have deep concerns about the wisdom of doing surgical changes and adding hormones that our bodies are not designed to have in such doses, medical concerns that is. Particularly at such a young age.
I thing talking about gender here confuses things as what we are really talking about when we get into surgical changes is sex. I thought we had gotten past an idea that because I’m a woman I can’t like baseball (or what have you) or because someone is a man they can’t wear pink. Some of the ‘bandwagon’ folks seem to talk about gender and sex like that, and it bothers me. I think people who are truly transgender have deep issues with their sex and need compassion more than anything, but are fairly rare. The ones who start to talk about how they knew they really should have been a woman because they like nailpolish feel like they are taking us a step backwards as a society. I don’t know if that makes sense.
Salty, I do think there are people who are born gay and are not going to change. I don’t think this has anything to do with how they are raised. I don’t think it’s the same thing as adultery because they are not hurting someone else who they committed to. I think there are some who choose because they feel some fluidity and can go either way (I personally know at least two women who have gone back and forth between men and women, generally settling on men).
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KAS, I am very libertarian in my thinking. I don’t want the left or the right deciding what I am allowed or is proper to think or do. I can’t stand all the group think out there.As to the latter, what harms others should be the criteria. My liberty should not come at a cost to your liberty-that sort of thing. That is why special rights for groups is so dangerous. Example: a small group of black teen boys vandalized the car of a friend of mine working in the inner city. They wrote hateful things about her skin color on it with paint. She called the police who told her it was not a hate crime because she is not black. She was to call her insurance company! That is special group rights that does not help either group.
It’s why I do think Islam is going to be a huge problem. In that belief system the Religious/political/social are the same thing. There are many cultural Muslims who don’t subscribe to that. But more and more are subscribing.
A great Theologian named Leonard Verduin really helped me think through the whole “Christian nation” problem we have here. He write a little known book called “Anatomy of a Hybrid” which charts thinking on such models from Christ pretty much ignoring the Roman occupation to the state church to freedom of religion we enjoy today. Eat your Wheaties before reading it!
Treating humans equally with dignity and respect IS a tenant of following Christ. Freedom of speech and religion is a Christian “ideal”.. That does NOT make us door mats. People should discuss and debate issues as citizens because we ARE to be the government now. Being the light of the world does not mean everyone has to agree all the time. Nor does it mean pitting groups against each other. We are not to be lemmings attached to groups or movements. We judge fruit not motives or hearts. And what is fruit? Sadly, many are taught it is how many people you witnessed to today. NOT.
One of the biggest problems, in my mind, with cultural Christianity is many have been taught that behavior does not matter or a false piety of self righteousness following traditions of men. That is legalism (until you are the victim– then behavior matters!.). Behavior does matter whether we are saved or not. Harming others should be the focus of our judgement for a safe society.. Not personal choices that we don’t agree with that don’t harm others. How does gay civil marriage harm me?
I think we are safe to say there isn’t a practicing homosexual in America who has not heard it is a sin. So what is the point, I wonder? They say to evangelicals, so what as I disagree. There are even churches dedicated to homosexual parishioners. they say, I am not hurting you. I am a working citizen with rights. And I agree with them on that. Just dont shove it down my throat and call me a homophobe because I dont promote it or someone didn’t want to bake a gay wedding cake. Let us live in peace.
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I think we have to be careful how we approach these sorts of issues. The Bible says we struggle against “the world, the flesh and the devil”. We tend to misunderstand how each of these work and how we must resist the influence of each.
We Christians do not do a good job of having a Biblical perspective on sin. Gluttony and drunkenness are almost always listed together, but interestingly enough, Christians have jumped on the prohibition/temperance bandwagon, but not on the sugar war bandwagon.
There are some significant principles in dealing with sin that I think American Christianity has completely missed.
1) Dealing with sin is primarily a grassroots effort. There may be this or that king in the Old Testament that led national repentance, and there have been similar periods throughout history, but peoples’ hearts were prepared to hear. Conservatives today tend to think that making homosexuality illegal will somehow bring national repentance and righteousness. Why do the hard work of coming alongside other Christians and mourning with them in their fight against sin, when we can cleanse an entire nation with the signing of some law?
2) We think that education is the key to righteousness. “If we could only teach kids not to use drugs….” Yet, for all the effort to do just that, kids still drink, smoke, use drugs and engage in premarital sex. We think that the mind is the key to righteousness, but we ignore the flesh. This is the battle of homosexuality – if we just have the right “conversion therapy” we can solve the problem.
3) We diminish the role of the flesh. This is the flip-side of #2 – we assume that all sin is walking down some road to perversion. Yet, each person struggles with entirely different sins, and doesn’t struggle with others. Just because I don’t struggle with alcoholism doesn’t mean I’m better than someone who does, or that his struggle was a result of repeated distorted thinking and rebalancing. There was no education campaign that produced the sins I struggled with. I struggled with many as long as I can remember. As such, we need to understand the difference between temptation and sin. Someone who is tempted by alcohol is not an alcoholic. Their relationship with alcohol might be completely different than mine, and they may have to continually guard against that. In the same way, a person with same-sex attraction is not necessarily a “homosexual” (We have to be especially careful to separate the person from the act in this case, and the world is trying very hard to blur them!)
4) I don’t want to say “everyone is a sinner” in a way that diminishes the seriousness of sin, but the world does have a point when Christians harp on one form of sin and ignore others that are as bad, if not worse. For example, how can churches ignore adultery and take a hard stand on homosexuality? Both were capital offenses! How can churches ignore domestic violence or spiritual abuse? I think we have to be careful what stands we take as Christians. What stands did Jesus take? He essentially shrugged off an adulterer, but he vigorously called out the abuse and injustice of the religious leaders. Are we in line with Jesus if we choose to overlook spiritual abuse in a quest to rid the world of sexual sin?
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I don’t see a problem with the complementarian beliefs in general, as long as they include that both men AND women are guilty before God. Remember Jezabel was a bad woman, Herod’s daughter was also bad. But Tamar was a victim, ruth an over comer, Rahab a repenter of sins.
Women get hooked on pornography and commit infidelity problems just about as much as men.
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@ cute said,
Complementarianism is codependency and sexism with Bible verses taken out of context to support it, so it is very problematic.
You might want to check out:
_Even Warm and Fuzzy, True, Correctly-Implemented Gender Complementarianism is Harmful to Women, and It’s Still Sexism – Yes All Comps (Refuting “Not All Comps”)_
Regarding your point that comp would be oakey doakey if they acted as though both genders are “guilty before God.”
You’ll have to speak to complementarians on that score.
Because they do hold men “more” responsible for some sins than they do women and vice versa.
They may say a wife did sin X, Y, or Z because her husband was not leading her good enough or not enough at all.
In actuality, though, comps always tend to make WOMEN “more” responsible, even for the sins of the male gender.
For example, complementarians teach that women are not responsible for their own sins – their husbands are.
Complementarians say that a man will be held to account to God for the sins of his wife
(I am a woman who has never married, so apparently, I do not factor into comp theology).
If a comp man has an extra-marital affair, comps will blame his wife for it. (They will say she was not attractive enough and drove him to have an affair.)
If a comp husband physically beats his wife, comps blame the wife. (They will say she is getting beat up by her spouse because she is not “submitting enough.”)
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Lydia said,
I believe it probably refers to…
Inerrancy of Scripture
Just a guess.
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KAS said,
Maybe so, but complementarians swing way too far in the other direction and attempt to over-define what it is to be a man or woman.
And in doing so, they come up with extra-biblical or un-biblical gender roles and rules and marginalize everyone who does not neatly fit into their little tidy gender role boxes.
I was reading about a legal case a long time ago, where some judge once said he didn’t know how to define pornography but he knows it when he sees it.
I think it’s the same thing concerning “what is man” and “what is woman.”
You know it when you see it, but if you sit around trying to define it for everyone else (such as Council for Biblical Manhood and Womanhood) and insist everyone else follow your formula, you enter into legalistic, Pharisee land, which only hurts and frustrates people.
KAS said,
As a life long celibate, I can tell you that most Christians / pastors / churches today don’t give a rat about speaking out against hetero fornication or in favor of hetero (or homosexual) celibacy.
Pastors today are too afraid of offending hetero people who are fornicating, or, they get more money and attention off the shallow, sensationalist, seeker-friendly sermons that have titles such as, “How to Spice Up Your Married Sex Life.”
(As a single, celibate lady, I don’t care if married couples out there have spicy sex lives, nor do I want to hear or read any more Christian marital commentary or sermons about it.)
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Lydia said,
Not that I’m disagreeing with you per se, but I see a lot of gender complementarians trying to accomplish what you are talking about by BLAMING GIRLS AND WOMEN. Or, that is one of their most used or favorite tactics.
Some aspects of Purity Culture I’m fine with, if they just tell kids “wait until marriage to have sex.”
Where I get tripped up with Christian Purity Culture, which tends to be closely aligned with complementarianism, is Christians have this nasty, unfair, and sexist habit of teaching girls and women that men’s sexual sins are the fault of girls and women.
So, girls are told things like, “Don’t wear yoga pants or blouses with spaghetti straps around young men, because it will cause the boys to lust.”
All responsibility concerning sexual control, or a lion’s share of it, is placed on girls and women.
If a married guy has an affair, the purity culture / complementarian types blame the wife! They will say she “let herself go” or what have you. Men are almost always given an out, a line of reasoning that lets them off the hook.
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Lydia said,
One of the things that drives me nuts about homosexual marriage supporters and LGBT “rights” stuff in general, is when advocates for either or both those issues go on a war-path to demonize anyone who disagrees with them.
I’ve read of people getting fired, or threatened with losing their jobs, all for doing something like saying, (on their OWN time, on their own personal computer at their house on their personal Facebook page), that they disagree with homosexual marriage.
You have some Christians who work as bakers, photographers, or florists being sued or fined out of business by parts of the LGBT community who will tolerate no dissent at all, and they will bulldoze anyone who dares to speak publicly against LGBT, or who just says due to their personal religious convictions they disagree with LGBT.
I notice with dismay and alarm that the American liberals or American pro-LGBT never speak out against Islamic views on LGBT or women and Sharia, etc.
I don’t get too worked up over people who are homosexual and want to be homosexual – what kills me are the homosexuals who want to harass or punish – legally or otherwise – anyone who merely holds an opposing view to theirs, who does not want to ‘celebrate’ homosexuality, etc. That side creeps me the heck out.
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Just had to add my 2 cents…
The problem I have with the general “christian” response of ‘homosexuality is sin’ is that it creates shame in those who are gay (watch Brene Brown’s TED talk on shame to understand why this bothers me so much). Their sexuality isn’t an action – it’s central to who they are as a person. So in essence they are being told YOU are sinful. Even gay christians living celibate lives feel this shame.
I agree that there are some very aggressive agendas pushed by the LGBTQ community as a whole. This isn’t ideal. BUT I do think it stems from their collective feelings of shame the Christian community has heaped on them over the years.
Jesus took sin seriously. But sin is found in our actions, not in who we fundamentally are. I know not all Christians will agree with me regarding homosexuality and sin – that’s okay. I just hope that you would be willing to have a coffee or dinner with someone who is gay. I hope you would hear their story – their heartache. I hope you could be Jesus to them in that place and help them feel how loved they are by God.
All that being said, this book is so hurtful and ridiculous in so many ways. It’s hard for me to believe that we are actually followers of the same Jesus… Scary.
Sorry for the long post. 🙂
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No need to apologize, Mom of Three. You raised some very good points. I especially agree with your idea of sitting down and talking with someone who is gay. I think Jesus would.
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A couple thoughts.
First, in the course of running a business in contracting over the years, my husband and I have had a number of gay couples among our customers. Without exception they have been decent people, kind, reasonable, good customers who pay their bills on time. They are just people living their lives, going to work, doing activities they enjoy together, taking care of their homes and yards, caring for their pets, same as you and me.
When Christians think homosexuality, they tend to think of the most bizarre images from gay pride parades and so on. I think you have to recognize the fact that a lifetime of being excluded, ridiculed, harassed, and rejected can make people a little crazy maybe.
I don’t have a problem with gay marriage – it doesn’t affect me- but I do have the concern that the legalization of polygamy will happen soon after, and that I do feel would have a lot of victims, both women and children.
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Dear “Voice of Reason”, you said “I just couldn’t figure out if you disagreed with/mocked the book and its author, or God and the Bible or (seems like) all of the above.”
I want to encourage you to read more carefully and try to hear what people are saying. I think you will see there is no mocking of God going on, although people who comment are all coming from different mindsets and may have different opinions on things, as you did. The book and the hurtful and self righteous things in it I will mock. I fear for young parents who will jump into teaching this stuff and in years to come they will regret it, when it’s too late to go back and redo things. My hope is that they will hear a “voice of reason” dissuading them instead.
I also want to encourage you to separate God and the Bible from these teachings in your mind. A person can strongly disagree with these ideas and also love God and his word.
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BeenThereDoneThat,
“James Dobson says fathers should shower with their sons so the boy can see daddy’s manhood.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/23/541003/-”
Oh my. That was a painful read. I remember reading or hearing some of the examples they gave in the course of reading and listening to him, back in the day. Very, very strange. Of course, it used to be said that people tended to go into the psych fields to try to figure out their own issues… maybe some truth to that there?
One of my biggest regrets is reading “The Strong Willed Child.” My first son was very strong willed. Thankfully, I didn’t spend too much time in that mindset before I got better advice but there was damage done and I regret it.
I’ll never forget another time when my daughter was a teenager, I borrowed this Dobson video to watch with her about dating. I thought it would be a reasonable discussion of the pros and cons and Christian values and so on. No, he was all wrapped up in this philosophy of how your relationship has to proceed in a certain order physically – like it has to go from holding hands to kissing to touching breasts to something else… I forget the particulars now but he had this list of specifics, and if you didn’t do it in the right order, you were violating God’s “design” and it would lead to trouble! It was soooo weird. I sat there with my jaw dropped to the ground, and after awhile I turned it off and apologized to my daughter, I had no idea the video was going to be like that. I’m sure she thought it was extremely strange and confusing.
I think that, while Dobson was probably well meaning (?) and his organization did some good things, he had a lot of very weird ideas and he also subtly turned the eyes of Christians away from Christ and onto the family, turning it into an idol of sorts. He was this great saint in the eyes of the Christians I knew, they hung on his every word. Dobson founded the “Family Research Council” along with George Alan Rekers, whose story is pretty eye opening on the subject of anti-gay hypocrisy, too – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Alan_Rekers.
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With so many conservative Christians against psychology, I wonder how James Dobson got such a large following?
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“But sin is found in our actions, not in who we fundamentally are.’
Great way to put it!
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Oh man, my mother bought this book when I was little (because I was a wee bit strong willed!). I have no idea what it says or if she followed it.
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“I think that, while Dobson was probably well meaning (?) and his organization did some good things, he had a lot of very weird ideas and he also subtly turned the eyes of Christians away from Christ and onto the family, turning it into an idol of sorts. He was this great saint in the eyes of the Christians I…”
Bingo!
48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”. Matt 12
I clung to this passage after my mother died as most of my family was immersed in the jet setting seeker mega world– which I think is idolatry.
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With so many conservative Christians against psychology, I wonder how James Dobson got such a large following?
Mixture? I’ve known believers heavily into Dobson, who cleverly combines some good biblical material with ‘insights’ from modern psychology. It’s not always easy to see where one ends and the other begins.
Psychoheresy Awareness Ministries has some good stuff on this kind of thing, and I have on occasion enjoyed their materials exposing the inflitration of secular (or worse) thinking into the church where these conflict with the faith.
With a title like ‘Focus on the Family’ on the tin, I suppose it’s obvious what the contents are going to be. I wonder where the old ladies in the church are, the ones who have already made all the mistakes and from whom the younger can learn. Surely much better than reading loads of books, especially by men whose qualification is that they too have read loads of books!
Lydia00 – my father had quite a thing about making a spouse and/or the rest of the family into an idol. You are not the only one.
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This I had not heard of. I’m wondering if they are linked/coordinated with the nouthetic counseling movement?
Psychology isn’t the bible, but that doesn’t mean it’s evil or that it can’t be helpful to people. I may have to investigate this more.
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Lea – I haven’t had to read the site for a while, but if I recall correctly they are fairly critical of Adam’s and nouthetic counselling.
Like everything, you have to read with discernment, but the Bobgans are good out exposing the origins of some of the pop psychology in modern evangelicalism without writing off the entire discipline.
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@Nancy2:
Male-supremacist societies always have a love-hate relationship with homosexuality. Since women are breeding stock/domestic animals, the only way to Make Love(TM) to another PERSON is with another male. As one ancient source put it, “Women for breeding stock, Men for love, Boys for pleasure.”
But that requires “making a woman out of” one of the males. (Normally the lower-ranking one, at which point it becomes Animal Forced Dominance Display, dom & sub, top & bottom, penetrator & penetrated.)
Plus the fear that a stronger, higher-ranking man can make a woman out of you.
So male homosexuality is both a draw/privilege of rank and a strong taboo. And a male-supremacist society where women are domestic animals will always have this tension.
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@JulieAnne:
Obviously he was able to put an (ideologically pure) Christian Spin on it.
“Just like Psychology, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
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@Daisy:
Mail order from the Third World?
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@Persephone:
“It is not enough for you to obey Big Brother, 6079 Smith W.
You must LOVE Big Brother.”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984
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Shy1 said,
I don’t believe that excuses the extreme factions of LGBT groups who think it’s okay to bully or harass folks who differ from them on topics of sexuality, however.
Some of the bullying LGBT are just as bad at the “Christian” right wing, Westboro types – but they love to claim victimization status.
I’ve found no matter how politely I’ve stated my disagreements on other sites (regarding the issue of LGBT), I will still get screamed at, insulted, referred to as a “homophobe.” They just leave zero room for an “agree to disagree politely” stance. Some of them can be very fanatical and close-minded.
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@BTDT:
Sounds kinky to me. DISTURBING kinky.
Does anybody know anything about this guy Joseph Nicolosi?
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Shy1 said,
Yes, Dobson and other Christians most certainly turn the Family into an idol. This is especially noticeable to anyone such as myself who has never married or had a kid.
Sadly, even liberal Christians or ex Christians are blind to this phenomenon.
On the very rare occasions I see Christians write essays criticizing the American Christian tendency to idolize the nuclear family – where the author will rightfully point out the teachings of Christ, where Christ said you must put him, Christ, above your biological family-
I’ve seen liberal (or ex) Christian sites quote such work unfavorably. I am amazed that such liberal or ex Christians don’t understand.
The liberal or ex Christians are horrified that a Christian author would point out that Christ taught that spiritual family (ie, other Christians) are supposed to be more, or just as, important, to a Christian as one’s family of origins.
They think this is weird, cult-like teaching, but Jesus Himself taught that believers are to place him (Jesus) as their priority, and to consider other Christians to be (spiritual) brothers and sisters.
I think this was so because Jesus saw that people like me – who never marry or have kids – have no blood relations (in my own case, I do have some living family left, but most of them are jerks, or verbal abusers, or whatever, so I cannot rely on them). People who are single and childless end up alone and excluded by churches.
You have Muslims who convert to Christianity whose Muslim families exclude them after their conversions. These Muslims are left without flesh and blood family to turn to.
Their brothers and sisters in Christ should be their new family, but in the United States, they are not gong to get that, because U.S. Christians are too busy “focusing on their (biological) families.”
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Regarding all the discussion about Dobson telling fathers to shower with their sons.
It is kind of weird sounding at first glance, I grant you that. I can’t believe I’m sort of defending Dobson on this point (only sort of), but….
Starting when I was around age 6 or 7, on those days my mother was too tired to run me a bath, she would hop into the shower to take a shower for herself, and have me strip off nude to and hop in the shower with her.
My mother would clean herself off in the shower, then have me step under the water, help me lather up and rinse off in the shower. There was NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING sexual about it. My mom was not a sexual abuser or a pervert. She didn’t touch me inappropriately or anything like that.
As far as I can recall, though, my mother did not (not not not not) place me in the shower to teach me about women’s bodies, or anything like Dobson was suggesting that dads do with their sons.
My mother’s motivation for having me in the shower with her when I was a kid was, “I’m tired today, giving a kid a bath is more work, and a shower would be easier and faster.”
(And she didn’t do it that often, maybe just a small handful of times when I was a kid.)
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Re: “Psychoheresy Awareness Ministries”
I’m wary of Christian groups that talk smack about psychology, psychiatry, etc. They remind me of Tom Cruise- scientology like rants about psychology and other mental health care.
Not all of psychology or psychiatry is bad, sinful, or evil and can be more beneficial than Christian Biblical Counseling – most of which just tells the afflicted person to “pray the emotional pain away” or “read the Bible more.”
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@HUG
It gets worse. The following link takes you to a few pages of Nicolosi’s book. If you click “previous” in the yellow bar at the top, it takes you to the page that Dobson quoted from. Page 187 talks all about the shower experience and what to do if the little boy repeatedly touches dad’s penis. The whole point of this shower experience to to show off dad’s penis, not to bathe.
https://books.google.com/books?id=J_MrSdhZz6cC&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=Joseph+Nicolosi+fathers+shower+with+sons&source=bl&ots=MyMOZLGyZG&sig=YLLDnOVio1nh2NKgOlRTtARs8vE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjl9YLB1fnPAhUU_GMKHWY1CLIQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=Joseph%20Nicolosi%20fathers%20shower%20with%20sons&f=false
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@HUG
According to Wikipedia, he’s a psychologist who advocates and practices reparative (or conversion) therapy.This practice assumes that homosexuality is a mental disorder. Conversion therapy has been rejected by medical and mental health organizations, and is outlawed for minors in some states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nicolosi
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Dobson huh?
He’s also the one who beat his little dog with a belt to show it who’s boss and then bragged about how ‘Scriptural’ it was. Again, I thank my lucky stars to free and clear of their sick and twisted religion.
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“It gets worse. The following link takes you to a few pages of Nicolosi’s book. “
I am speechless.
How did these guys come up with this stuff? There is something really “off” about this book. I read a few other pages and notice he quotes Rekers as an authority a lot. Here’s a little more on George Rekers, Dobson’s gay conversion therapy expert who turned out to be hiring a male prostitute from rentboy http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/06/08/rekers.sissy.boy.experiment/
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Daisy, I don’t see anything wrong with your mom washing you in the shower. Like BTDT pointed out, the sexual aspect, not getting clean, is whole point of the shower thing in the book. That’s just weird. These adults are way too self-conscious of their own sexuality, it seems like kids would pick up on that and wonder what all the tension is about. I don’t know where they got the gall to claim their ideas could prevent homosexuality.
I’ve seen the psycho heresy awareness site before. They are very paranoid about psychology. As the name says, they believe it is ‘heresy.’ They don’t see it as a medical discipline but as another “faith” competing with Christianity, like you can only believe one or the other.
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