Sex abuse survivors need to be believed and supported
What happens when sex abuse survivors spend years trying to tell others of their abuse and it is met with deaf ears? What happens when family and friends turn their backs and ignore the abuse?
In the next personal story, we will read a response to an article I posted about Lorraine. IncestThrowaway1983 responded to Lorraine’s story sharing her personal story on Reddit and gave me permission to share it here. While reading this personal story, I’d like you to consider what happens when one spends a lifetime holding their dark secret alone. More importantly, what would have been the outcome had someone believed and supported this survivor?
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IncestThrowaway1983’s Personal Story
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In all things I have shown you that by working hard in this way we must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he himself said,
‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’” Acts 20:35
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I contemplated posting this under my regular Reddit name and I just couldn’t do it. I want so hard to embarrass the crap out of my family, but I still have this lingering shame inside of me, like I had done something wrong.
This isn’t a problem that is only for Christians. I mean while my family, which was involved deeply in politics in our home state, would profess Christianity behind closed doors, they were anything but.
It all started when I was seven. I had been orphaned at 7 years old and my brothers and I went to live with my grandparents. That was the summer everything started. My older brother began molesting me. He went to live with his father during the school year, but every summer up until I was 10, he would do deviant things to me.
I happened to have seen a special report on Nick News about molestation and realized suddenly and all at once that what had been happening to me was wrong. I felt it was wrong but couldn’t really put anything in words about how it was wrong.
So, I worked up some courage and told my school counselor. My family went thru the motions doing everything that the cops had them do. But every time they brought it up, it was, “You’ll laugh about this in the future,” and “You just have to get over this.” Come to find out from my younger brother, they believed I made all of it up.
They’ve hated me ever since. I finally got the balls to confront them about it when I was banned from coming to a family member’s funeral, but my rapist older brother was allowed to come. I mentioned how is it that I wasn’t allowed to come, but that my rapist brother was? And they said, “You really need to stop all that.” My grandfather, before he passed, told me that he didn’t believe that it had happened because I should have said something sooner.
And according to my younger brother, the ones that did believe me thought it looked bad on my family, and that i should have just kept it in the family and never told the school counselor, and because of that, I was (I’m paraphrasing her) a jerk.
All this is to say, it’s about keeping up stupid appearances, not religion. It’s about people who have this ridiculous belief that appearance is more important than truth. That it’s trivial – that what happened to me and others like me doesn’t have far-reaching consequences.
As a result of all that, I ended up with a bad drug problem, PTSD, self-harm issues, anxiety and a low self-worth. I still struggle with knowing if God loves me. I’m the only real Christian in my family and I’m probably the least sure of God’s existence. After all, I wonder where was He when those things were happening.
All this is to say, religion or none, it’s not about that, it’s about people who care more about what it looks like than what it actually is. (Source)
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Observations
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In both personal stories, we can see a common denominator of people who failed to help, listen, and believe these sex abuse survivors. These young ladies did not have advocates for them. They had to wrestle in their minds the messages that others told them.
When people don’t believe survivors, sometimes survivors ask themselves if they did something to cause the sex abuse. They might ask themselves if they were imaging it. Or they may question whether they could have done something differently to prevent it. And sometimes, they will begin to doubt their own recollection or reality of what happened to them. The inner turmoil a survivor must deal with can be paralyzing.
People I knew, loved, and trusted failed me.
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Although I was not a sex abuse survivor, I was a victim of child abuse at the hands of my father who legally adopted me (now deceased). He physically beat me from the age of 3 until 19 years old. I’ve shared parts of my story before. While some of the pain had to deal with my dad using me as a punching bag or an object to kick around, the most emotionally painful part of the abuse had to do with people that I knew, loved, and trusted who failed me, who turned the other way, who dismissed my story, and who defended my fun-loving dad instead. The real kicker for me was dealing with my mother, whom I adored. She stood by her man instead of defending me. Coming to grips with that shocking realization sent me on a very dangerous emotional downward spiral. It took several months of therapy to process that painful hurdle.
Untreated abuse can cause harm for survivors, the emotional toll sometimes lasting for years.
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Are you seeing a pattern here? All three of us had trusted family members who did not believe us or help us. Some of our trusted family or friends actually put blame on us. All three of us – abuse survivors – have had to deal with difficult mental health issues which were diagnosed years after the abuse.
Untreated abuse can cause harm for survivors, the emotional toll sometimes lasting for years. If you recall, Lorraine has dealt with PTSD, anorexia nervosa, body dysmorphic disorder, anxiety, and depression. IncestThrowaway1983 has had to deal with the challenges of drug problem, PTSD, self-harm issues, anxiety and a low self-worth. I was diagnosed with PTSD and after treatment, recovered from it.
We absolutely must get rid of the wrong message of “mental-health-equals-Satan” stereotype that many leaders in the Christian church have spewed. The idea of forgiveness and repentance is appropriate when it comes to our spirituality, but when it comes to living a life where one needs to be able to trust again, to risk, to be intimate with others relationally, it’s going to be difficult to be a whole and healthy person without some help recovering from these damaging abuse issues.
There are a lot of messages that abuse survivors tell themselves in order to survive that pain. There are many techniques abuse survivors learned to protect themselves from harm or potential harm, and those methods no longer work; in fact, they can be detrimental in current-day relationships. How to respond appropriately to perceived threats need to be relearned, and with the help of skilled mental health professionals, people can get back on the right track and be free from the extra emotional baggage.
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How You Can Help
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Will you please be an advocate for survivors? Here are some ways you can help survivors:
- The most important gift you can give a survivor is to believe them.
- Encourage the person to get help from licensed mental health providers skilled in abuse issues.
- If you know a crime was committed, report it to authorities. You can report anonymously.
- Keep checking in with the survivor regularly.
- Give of your time and let the survivor share their story without prodding.
- If the survivor says untruths about themselves, putting blame on themselves, tell them the truth, it wasn’t their fault.
- You do not need to have answers, the best gift you can give is a listening ear.
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photo credit: Tube Child via photopin (license)
Spiritual Sounding Board 
The absolute worst trend in the modern church is the tendency of leadership to side with the perpetrator and ostracize the victim. It’s the sole and single reason why I will not attend church ever again, and why I detest modern evangelicals. They’re so focused on play-acting their evangelical script that they will actively try to bury any scandal within the church that doesn’t fit their narrative, and the victims be damned. It’s foul and disgusting and I detest everyone who perpetuates it.
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I am so sorry for the abuse you all suffered. I thank all however for the bravery of sharing it and Julie Anne thank you for posting it. It was just the encouragement I needed tonight.
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It disgusts me, too, Dash. And the really sad thing is that Jesus, whom they claim to follow, would not treat victims like this. The church needs to wake up and be imitators of Christ.
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I have a female relative, who, years ago told my husband her husband had thrown her to the ground during a fight. She attempted to leave and he blocked her. My husband and I tried to intervene by talking to this lady and other close family who apparently knew all about it before we did and had done nothing.
After things began looking too “serious”, i.e. the ramifications of this lady telling us were becoming too much for her as we debated calling police, she not-so-subtly told us to butt out. After one family meeting in which her husband apologized, and everyone was encouraged to keep quiet for the “sake of this couples’ ministry”, nothing was ever said or done again.
I was furious with this lady for dragging us into such a situation and getting everyone so upset when she actually didn’t want anything changed. Was that a wrong attitude (being serious, not sarcastic)? I even questioned whether it happened (I can see her husband doing what she claimed), or if the lady made it up for attention (She has a history of doing this). They now live several states away and we don’t have much to do with them.
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Excellent article, Julie Anne! Thank you, to all, for sharing your stories. Hopefully it is a start to helping people understand how difficult it is for victims to not be believed.
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Loura – Domestic violence is a very complicated thing. It could be that she was at a point where she wanted to leave, but after really thinking it through, leaving actually scared her. Women decided to stay for various reasons: financial, health insurance, the kids are used against her, threatening physical safety, lack of support, etc. For some women who want to leave, the logistics of doing so can be very daunting. It is also well known that the most dangerous time for a woman is when she files restraining orders, files divorce papers or actually decides to walk out the door.
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I sat in on a meeting recently where two women gave their stories about surviving domestic violence. One woman said that one of the reasons why she stayed so long was because they were very active with their church and her abuser threatened to tell the elders and pastors that she was the “problem” in the marriage.
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Hmm..Interesting. Although in this case, the husband was known by the family to be the “problem”, and it was him they were protecting. I suspect, in this case, her reluctance to report was based around a fear of loss of status. You know how popular you are as a married person in fundy circles, and the name she got by being married to him who puts out a very convincing pastoral-ministry type personality. They do not have kids, although she wants them badly. She has severe endometriosis (spelling?) that went undiagnosed for too long. I can’t see him being a physically threatening person, but very manipulative and charming, yes.
For the both of them, for the whole family, image is everything.
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I keep hoping that something will finally crack that fake veneer so that real healing and change can happen with at least one of them. Nothing so far. They won’t let anyone in who sees past the masks.
I am bipolar with them: one minute so very sorry for them to be living in such darkness and bondage to the idol of “image”. The next minute I am so angry that they persist in such lies, regardless of who (themselves included) gets hurt.
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The whole idea that a married couple’s “ministry” takes precedent over the state of their relationship is ridiculous. It’s frankly nauseating. This is precisely the crap I’m referring to: It’s more important to people in the church to keep play-acting their little evangelical script for all the world to see than it is to acknowledge abuse. Good god. I’ll never get involved with that sort of lunacy again.
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Preach it, Dash!
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Dash, you have hit the nail on the head. Role playing and play acting seem central to the evangelical lifestyle. It is as if they can’t trust any personal instinct or intuition that would place their behavior “outside the evangelical box”. This story makes me so sad. I see many of my nieces and nephews struggle with living authentically as young adults because their parents can’t tolerate the individual differences each one has. Their parents would rather each child suffer in silence than help them wrestle with the pain and challenges that come with making adult decisions (which may include steps towards cutting out dangerous family members).
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I posted this on The Wartburg Watch blog, but it is applicable here:
The fallout on not being believed, heard, held is devastating.
I am going to share one of the many devastating manifestations of being sexually abused as a child. Two of my abusers shamed me to my core because my body responded with orgasm, as God designed it to do. The first was my father, I was five years old, he was furious that my body responded, he screamed at me and said he would never touch me again. No more back rubs for me. Ugh.
Second abuser told me I was a filthy animal & kicked me after he used me. There were other tramua’s that probably factor into my body shutting down & not being able to feel any desire when I was intimate. I am not proud of the fact that I slept with several men, I was so hungry for love that I believed sex would make them love me. O my god, I was messed up.
After one failed marriage, I met a good man. I trusted him with all my heart, in our 5th or so year of marriage I started to feel desire when we made love, as soon as it happened, I would ask my husband, Am I being bad? He would reassure me that no I wasn’t bad. That happened over & over. Then I got some excellent counseling & understood why I kept asking if I was bad because I felt pleasure. It still stuns me that I had no idea why I would ask that question, as it is as clear as the blue sky to me today.
Hubby & I have worked through so much, but, I still have to do self talk after we make love, telling myself that what we shared wasn’t dirty, I am not bad, nor am I a whore. I am 61 years old, my abuse started at five years old. So, Steve, you really need to educate yourself on what molesting does to the victims. The fallout is horrible evil. And I haven’t even scratched the surface of the engulfing guilt, shame & worthlessness that one carries their whole life.
Jesus helped me, but HE didn’t heal me, depression, anxiety tormented me for years as I served my fanny off in a John F. MacArthur wanna be boys church. Love that TWW & Eagle and Julie Anne and so many others keep the focus on the victims.
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nobody,
Thank you for sharing your story here. You’ve had a long and difficult journey. I’m glad to know you are with a husband who loves and cares for you and pray for your continuing recovery.
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Another point to remember: stories of sexual abuse evolve over time, especially with children. At first, those whom are abused tell the basics so they can get the help they need. Details may emerge as time starts healing and the abused persom finds trusted confidants. This is very normal.
Loura: I spent five years as a volunteer who took domestic abuse crisis line calls, and worked with abused women and their children. It sounds to me like this woman was threatened, and shut her mouth to save her life. Mind games are a prominent and important part of domestic abuse.
Dash: You are so correct on the playacting. I can’t stand it, either. Authenticity is NOT welcome in most fundagelical churches!
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You may be right, and I wouldn’t put it past the husband. But I’ve known this lady a long time and she was very manipulative for years before she ever met her husband. Not saying that she “deserves” to be abused, but if she won’t be honest, is there anything anyone can do?
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If you are 19 and blame your problems and sins on some sin committed against you when you were were 10, it can make some sense, but most of you are adults.
Surely you know the forgiveness in Christ and know the world is full of sin and can move forward whether others do or not.
Maybe not at 19, but you are older, wiser.
Why doesn’t someone explain to her how the world is?
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You’re not worth the effort of a dialogue.
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And if Q is a part of the recent wave of “bunker” cretins invading this blog, my only regret is that I can’t hurl profanity-laced obscenities at them, because it would look unsporting. Believe you me, though, I’m thinking them, even if I can’t post them.
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Dash, You are insulting, maybe it is because you are in a hurry or easily annoyed.
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Dash, do you believe Jesus can rescue us from our sins and others? Or are we victims forever?
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Ah, right right. JD Hall I presume? You’re a real piece of work.
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At 19 years old it is very understandable, but may not push others agenda.
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Are you a victim forever?
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Are you arguing that the forgiveness of Christ permits every possible kind of sin without consequence? How does that work exactly?
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Of course not.
Die to self. you can move on, don’t die to self, it’s pretty difficult.
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“Moving on” and “holding perpetrators accountable for their crimes” are not mutually exclusive. Furthermore, the severity of injury that a person sustains due to a criminal act varies. If someone suffers neurological damage from abuse, the results can last for decades, sometimes until death. But as I said earlier, it’s uselsss to try and explain anything to you because you’re incapable of hearing reason.
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And by the way, you are doing an excellent job of demonstrating callousness and contempt for others here in your comments. Do you think that you demonstrate the love of Christ? You do not. You come across as a hardened, angry, bitter, callous, unremorseful sadist who enjoys seeing others squirm in their own pain.
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Dash, You do not know me, I could point out some of your unwarranted accusations, probably should, but won’t now. And my reasoning is good.
Dash, Are you saying, a person can have life without dying?
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Dash, You seem to be everything in your posts.
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We’re done for now. I have better things to do tonight.
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Well that was unpleasant.
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https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2015/07/29/what-happens-to-a-sex-abuse-survivor-when-they-are-not-believed-or-supported/comment-page-1/#comment-285862
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Q,
I personally have NEVER met an individual, saved-born again or unsaved, translated into Christian verses unchristian, that has ever truly, in this earthly life,
ever totally and completely “died to self.” Having sat in a myriad of conferences, Bible studies, various church denominations my entire life, each and every person has ALWAYS brought up some aspect of their past that still hurts. ALWAYS. And it is their past concerning them-SELVES. The self. No one has had that perfect life here, that best life now.
It is the sly questioning modes that people choose to engage in (I went through these same wicked communication patterns in my last abusive church system), that manipulates the conversations/emotions/thoughts/lifestyles of others in gaining followers after themselves. Please examine yourself in the hope that God, the Holy Spirit, will lead you and the rest of us in prayer for these people who have been sexually violated/abused/and abandoned for they are desperately in need of our interceding prayers, empathy, compassion, and Christ-like love.
We must remember that none of us have “arrived” for we all struggle with something/sin in this life, and anytime I sit under leadership of any sort that believes they have arrived and boast of a life of “sola perfecta”, my heart breaks for them and under them I sit, no more.
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Admin note: I had to clean up some of the comments that came in overnight. Please refrain from personal attacks; ie, “you are a _____.” It’s okay to say, “You are coming across like _______.”
Also, Q, this is supposed to be a safe place for victims of abuse. It’s not appropriate for you to tell victims what their recovery process should look like. That’s neither kind, nor compassionate.
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I posted this on another article, and thought it might answer your question.
Almost 12 years ago, I lost an infant. A few years passed and a well-meaning family member (who was not around at the time of our baby’s death) suggested to us that God could bring wholeness into our lives again if we would let Him (what I assume you mean by “die to self”).
My husband and I smiled politely and dismissed his view, because he didn’t really “know”. He didn’t see how deep the wound went, how life-altering the wound was. Yes, God can heal and does heal, and He gave us 3 more beautiful, healthy children as well. Our wounds have healed but they are deep scars that still cause pain on occasion. These scars are reminders of our love for our baby. They will never heal completely as if she didn’t exist, nor would I want them to. Our hearts were broken that day, we were changed forever, but it was after all, a good change, not a “good wound”.
The same can be said of others’ deep wounds. There will be scarring of the heart and mind; they will never be the same person again. Just as healing from a surgery takes time, or certain physical wounds may never fully heal, these realities do not negate God’s love, compassion, or healing abilities. We are healed, but we are scarred. That is how God built people inside and out.
The subject of forgiveness is another misunderstood topic. After reading the Bible carefully, I have come to the conclusion that forgiveness in Scripture could translate to reconciliation. I wrote more about that and why I believe that Biblical forgiveness is a 2-way process here: http://myfathershouse.squarespace.com/journal/2013/2/16/on-forgiveness.html
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Loura: “Our wounds have healed but they are deep scars that still cause pain on occasion. These scars are reminders of our love for our baby. They will never heal completely as if she didn’t exist, nor would I want them to.”
I’m so sorry for your loss. I think these words are beautiful. You will always remember your dear baby because why would you want to forget that precious life? And, when you remember, you will still grieve at the loss of that life. This is a natural response for people. Why would God give us the ability to experience these emotions if it were not a part of how he created us?
I think the callous words of “just move on” are said by people who are uncomfortable and unable to deal with the grief and emotions of trauma. On the other hand, I think God is not unmoved by our expression and is able to handle the emotions that we present because he is the one who created us to experience them.
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Kathi, I think you’ve nailed it. Many people are made uneasy and uncomfortable by people who have suffered a tragic loss or are suffering from disabilities or a long terminal illness. They, like all of us, want to fix things, to say just the right thing to being healing. But, they don’t want to accept that life is unfair and bad things happen to good people and that some things are not fixable or might take a long recovery period because that would mean something bad can happen to THEM.
This attitude can lead to ugly theology with victim blaming. I first noticed this growing up when a close friend with muscular dystrophy attended a revival meeting, excited to share the experience with other people who loved God. Instead he was told that if he REALLY loved God then God would heal him and he would get up out of that wheelchair. Well he died more than forty years ago but I still remember him and know I will see him healed one day. God will heal and reunite and restore in the next world for certain, but we live in a fallen world right now.
There is a reason why the prosperity gospel is so popular and many Christians will not help or even walk alongside the suffering. They are in denial about life. Life is not easy and the Gospel is not a Hallmark card.
But if I have learned anything in my 62 years, it is that the fair weather friends are not living life to the fullest. They spend so much energy avoiding and blaming and trying to claim riches that they have no time for the joy that comes from unconditional love and friendship and service. When you truly love others, you cannot avoid sharing their pain. We cannot always ‘fix’ things but we can always choose to be there for each other.
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I think JA “cleaning up comments” made by dash, misrepresents the reality of what was going on or what was said (heavy editing), the conversation could have been much different and perhaps productive.
I am not minimizing the pain or the scars and believe in listening and having empathy. I have pain and scars and yet now, in my case, I can see how God has used it in my life.
I believe that we should not sin or hurt ourselves because of the pain.
Some people have bought into believing they sin because of something that happened to them in the past becoming a victim forever and don’t want this to happen to anyone. I believe we sin because we are sinners, and as someone said life isn’t fair, does this minimize God’s love for us, no. I would not expect a young person to understand this, but hope older adults do.
I come more from a Bobgan view than a Dobson. [mod note: JA removed link to site which refers to mental health as “heresy.”]
Probably most here won’t agree.
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I thought I showed a remarkable amount of restraint in my responses to Q last night. Q’s initial post here constitutes a general assault on all survivors everywhere. Why should I be meek and gracious to such a person if it’s ass-kicking that’s called for? I’m not representing anyone but myself here, if people want to point out how not-Christian I am being then let them, but I shouldn’t have to meek myself down in the face of cruelty.
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Dash only uses manipulative rhetoric and ad hominem attacks, and apparently is not ashamed to use them, adding nothing to the conversation.
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I don’t ever recall anyone coming to that conclusion on this blog in the 3+ yrs I’ve had it. Where are you finding this?
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Say whatever you want, you’re not fooling anyone.
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We don’t attack one’s personhood here, regardless of what they say.
You can say that someone’s comments are cruel, but please do not attack the person. You can also express how someone’s words make you feel. But ad hominem attacks are never productive. It’s helpful if you keep the conversation on the issues being debated, not the people debating.
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^^Directed @ Q in case there’s any confusion
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I figured that 🙂
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I think the part that people tend to miss is that my invective is a larger commentary on the pointlessness of the exchange at large. To me, it is pointless to converse with Q. He can critique my debating style all he wants; I’m not debating him. He can point out that I’m not adding to the conversation; I’m not trying to. “Dash only uses manipulative rhetoric and ad hominem attacks”- Yes, in Q’s case, that is correct. What’s the point of conversing with someone who is clearly lacking in empathy?
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“Where are you finding this?”
Psychology.
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Show me a point that Q has made that isn’t intended to shame and debase, and maybe I’ll discuss it objectively.
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Q, any qualified professor of psychology would expel you from their classroom and give you a failing grade.
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The psychoheresy article is dreadful. It distorts psychology for no good reason. It misrepresents what clinical psychologists and clinical social workers do. And worse, it deprives Christians of a needed source of help by making them think that Christianity and psychotherapy are incompatible.
Honestly, Q, I am profoundly shocked and dismayed by your recommendation of this article. I don’t understand how you can think like this.
Do you and people who think like you seriously believe people go for treatment to feel better about sinning? Do you think that people go to therapy because they don’t want to take responsibility. Just the opposite! Therapy is HARD work.
Everything is not a sin problem. First of all there is no reputable psychiatrist or psychologist who thinks that schizophrenia and other psychoses are anything but a brain disorder, a medical problem. The best that can be done is treatment with medication because schizophrenia is not currently treatable. Schizophrenics aren’t psychotic because they are sinners; they have a brain dysfunction.
Second, most people see a therapist because they are depressed or anxious and sometimes both. We don’t choose to be that way and would like to feel better. We are all profoundly influenced by our pasts. Sometimes we learn ways of coping that are all we can manage when we are children. For example, children who are sexually abused may learn to dissociate just to survive. However, the same coping mechanisms that work for a child may not help an adult who will need to learn new skills to have a better life.
Sometimes we internalize the wrong messages about ourselves or about how the world works. We may not even know what they are but they have a negative influence, causing us to be depressed or anxious or to have difficulty reaching our goals.
A good therapist can help us figure these things out and help us to develop better strategies for living.
I am not saying that people who are chronically sinning never go to therapists (although often they don’t). They do go and are helped to change. If someone goes to a therapist because they lose their temper and hurt people, the therapist is certainly not going to say that is okay because they are a victim of their childhood! Therapists want to help people become healthy, functioning adults and healthy adults do indeed take responsibility.
An article like this lies about therapy and about why people need help. It is ugly and wrong.
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Thank you Marsha for posting a wonderful response, and for showing far more patience than me. I get tired of these ugly exchanges very quickly and it’s easier to just open fire.
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ACK, Marsha, I didn’t even look at the link, but as soon as you said psychoheresy, I knew what it was all about.
Here is where Q gets his idea about victimhood in order to avoid sin:
People like Q, and I’ve seen it especially in Calvinist circles, are so focused on sin, they can’t seem to get a grip on the reality that someone else’s abuse can cause mental health issues. If someone was driving recklessly and caused bodily harm to another person, would they intervene with the medical doctors? I think not.
I think it’s a control thing. When church leaders get to label it as sin, then it’s under their authority, but if it’s labeled as mental health, their hands are tied.
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Thank you Marsha and JA for explaining. I hadn’t read Q’s article either and was a bit confused.
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“I think it’s a control thing. When church leaders get to label it as sin, then it’s under their authority”
It’s also an issue of basic stupidity. Let’s face it, many evangelical/Calvinist/fundamentalist preachers lack the intellectual capability to understand the intricacies and finer points of mental illness.
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I still get that horrid Psychoheresy newsletter. My former pastor must have signed me up. He told my girlfriend that trying to get a psychology degree was bordering on sin, and that she shouldn’t do it. She finished her master’s degree in May and has already landed both a good job and a teaching position. Meanwhile, he was booted from his church position. Satan came back to bite him in the back end.
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For so many of these leaders, they believe the same things, and so if they go against the common group thought, they will lose credibility and BFFs.
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“BFFs” HA
I may be lonely and single in my middle age with nothing to show for myself but a couple of grumpy cats and a large guitar collection, but I can say with absolute conviction that I don’t live and die at the mercy of other people’s opinions.
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Oh, they definitely do. It’s funny to look at their Twitter feeds. They take selfies together like teenage girls.
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Julie Anne,
I not focused on sin, but freedom from sin and growing in grace.
Oh and by the way you remember I am not a calvinist, right? I sent you the Brenda Nickel’s Basic Reformed Theology Exposed.
Marsha,
I believe psychology is very good at diagnosing behavior and even stepping in and saving lives with the help of the authorities…but do not believe they have the correct answers, how could they, the mind is not like the body.
The body can be correctly diagnosed and treated because it is observable and can be done scientifically, the mind cannot. Perhaps that is why so many conditions of the mind are not curable with psychology, like Schizophrenics, as you mentioned.
The article may be hard, truth sometimes can be.
[mod note: JA removed link which promotes nouthetic Biblical counseling and can be harmful to survivors]
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Q, you don’t have a medical degree, so everything you have to say on the subject of psychology is laughable nonsense.
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Dash,
Your fallacies of logic know no bounds!
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I was a barely surviving mother of 2 with PTSD 25 years ago (spouse overseas). My therapist knew what he was doing and I’ve recovered completely. I’m not buying it, Q. Many, many people are helped by mental health help.
Please stop dismissing it on my site.
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Q, that’s the last link you will be posting here promoting Biblical counseling. I will not promote it here because I have seen it do more harm with abuse survivors. It might work well with normal sin issues, but a survivor is not dealing with their sin issues, they are dealing with the consequences of someone else’s sin. I believe we’ve discussed this already. Why you would want a survivor to focus on their sin when they are just trying survive each day is beyond me. Please read up more on abuse issues.
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Q. “1+1=2”
Dash. “You are not a Mathematician so anything you say on the subject is ridiculous and should be ignored!”
Now that’s laughable nonsense. ^
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Q, your lack of intelligent discourse and stubborn insistence on stone-age rhetoric is no different from Islamic clerics insisting on the implementation of Shari’a Law. And quit pretending that we’re debating, because we aren’t.
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And actually, I happen to have a degree in higher math, so you’ve gone and put your foot in it again. Do you claim to be an expert in subjects for which you have no degree?
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JA, with all due respect, we all know that Q’s intention is to hurt people as deeply as possible in order to promote a twisted depiction of Christ. Why must we mince words? Q is a Pharisee. Matthew 23:15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are..”
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JA, I have, I’ve been a victim of abuse. My healing came from personal study of the bible, since we are going by experience, mine is as valid as any.
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Matthew 23:1-4 “1Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: 3All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.”
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Q, your experience is worthless because you lack empathy. Your opinion on this subject has no value because you show yourself by your words to be a cold, callous, uncaring, remorseless person.
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You are free to share what worked for you, but you are not free to put down what has been a real help to others.
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Dash, You are correct, I am not debating you, only pointing out how you are attempting to divert using fallacies of logic, manipulative rhetoric, and ad hominem attacks. which last I saw you just did at least three more times.
Perhaps you lack the ability to make or defend your position.
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Q – Dash brings up an important part of this discussion. When there is no demonstration of empathy, I question why you are here and what your motives are.
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“You are free to share what worked for you, but you are not free to put down what has been a real help to others.”
Ah but this is the real issue here isn’t it? Q isn’t here to share his own story, he’s here to belittle the experiences of others which may differ from his own.
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JA, Dash is not abiding by your rules.
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Q, how spectacularly you fail to even address the scripture which condemns your position. You sicken me, you truly do.
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It’s not OK for someone to have the veiled threat of guns hanging in the background as an implicit part of their theological stance, and this needs to be recognized and pointed out.
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I’m removing this link. I think it can lead victims into more harm.
Actually, I removed the psychoheresy link, too.
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JA, with the greatest respect for you and the rules you have set in play, I do not believe that I have crossed any lines. If I am correct in my information about the other party involved in this exchange, then persistent claims of ownership of a huge collection of guns with the intent of armed resistance of the government is an integral part of this person’s stance, and it cannot be overlooked. The implication here is that, given the opportunity, this person will *force* his beliefs on everyone else by violent insurrection, and I’m not going to ignore that part of his stance. It is integral to his every argument.
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JA, I don’t lack empathy, I just don’t agree with the majority, I guess.
And what in the world is Dash talking about?
I guess if someone acts strange enough you could make a case for psychology but it is a weird way to win that point of view. I think it may be making my point.
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“I’m removing this link. I think it can lead victims into more harm.
Actually, I removed the psychoheresy link, too.”
Book burning isn’t the answer, I’ll drop it for now.
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You can feign ignorance if you want to. It doesn’t change much.
Thus far in this exchange, you certainly haven’t demonstrated any empathy. Whether you agree with the majority or not is irrelevant.
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Please give me an exact quote where you are seeing this, Dash.
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“My podcast – which was five days a week back before I figured out it was too much work – is recorded from my infamous “sermon bunker” and the audio reverberates from echoing off my firearm collection.”
http://pulpitandpen.org/2015/07/11/jds-25-essential-things/
If I’m incorrect about this person’s identity, feel free to disregard and edit as you see fit.
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Ohhh, so you’re thinking Q is JD?? No, I don’t think so.
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I said as much further up the page, he never corrected me.
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And if it’s not JD, it’s one of his followers. I listened to one of JD’s podcasts in which he explicitly stated that fundamentalist Christians must be ready to resist their local magistrate with armed force if necessary; he was talking about marriage equality.
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Now I see why you thought so.
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And all the quotes about “not being victims” are verbatim from JD’s podcasts.
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Q would have a tough time listening to JD if he’s not a Calvinist. A lot of fundies are against mental health, both Arminian and Calvinist.
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Do whatever you feel is best, but when dealing with a group for which the implication of violence looms ever-present in the background of the exchange, I find that it’s best not to mince words, even if I turn out to be wrong.
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Q has not identified with any particular group except anti-mental health group (unless I’ve missed something).
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I’m fairly certain he represents the Bunker. He’s using their talking points verbatim.
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Like I said, I’m happy to be wrong.
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You’re wrong!
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Dash is happy 🙂
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I guess I am a fundie in that I believe in the 5 fundamentals of the faith.
1.The Deity of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2. The Virgin Birth.
3. The Blood Atonement.
4. The Bodily Resurrection.
5. The inerrancy of the scriptures.
I thought I was an evangelical, but that word doesn’t mean much anymore.
JA, Does that make you a fundie too?
And Calvinist or Arminian, are those my only two choices? 🙂
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Those articles are NOT the truth. The hard truth is that people suffer from mental illness for reasons other than sin and some of it is not cureable and some of it takes a lot of therapy to ameliorate. We need to acknowledge that depression or schizophrenia is no more a result of sin than cancer or pneumonia.
And if we are throwing degrees around, I have a BA in psychology and sociology. I got my Ph.D. In sociology in one of the top five programs in the country. Also I have had therapy. I know what I am talking about.
You miss my point about schizophrenia. I said it is a brain disease that can be managed with medication but there is no cure at this time. Just like there is no cure for neurodegenerative diseases like Huntington’s disease or Pick’s disease, both of which cause psychiatric problems.
On the other hand, people can suffer from anxiety or depression or be unable to cope with problems. Psychologists, psychiatrists, and clinical social workers can be of great help in those cases.
The mind can certainly be observed. That is what psychotherapy is all about. Talking about how you reacted in a certain situation and what you were thinking lets the therapist know about the beliefs and assumptions that could be causing you problems.
The brain can also be observed. Here is an interesting study about schizophrenia. You may know that unused brain cells die (apoptosis) at about three years of life. It turns out that there is another die off of cells that occurs in late adolescence. However, in schizophrenia, apoptosis goes too far and too many cells are destroyed. There are other documented problems in schizophrenia but this is one of the more recent results of observational study.
You think it is always wrong to discourage people from feeling guilty. Not if they have done nothing to feel guilty about! Victims of abuse are innocent. It is vile to say otherwise.
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Amen to that!
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On another thread I talked about a long ago friend with muscular dystrophy. He was excited to go to a revival meeting and be with other Christians. Unfortunately they were idiots and told him if he really loved Jesus he would be healed and able to get out of his wheelchair and walk. As far as I am concerned, taking this same tack about people who need psychotherapy is just more of the same kind of cruelty.
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