It really is okay for you to have a differing opinion with a Christian leader!
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There is so much tension in the media regarding the Ferguson fiasco. I wish everyone could just hold up a “free hugs” sign like this young 12-yr old in Portland and it would all get better:
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Sometimes pastors put themselves in the political spotlight by commenting on popular news stories. It concerns me when pastors speak out about these issues because of their spiritual position, for the primary reason that many people will hold their opinion as gospel when it has little to do with the gospel.
We have to be careful that we don’t interpret a Christian leader’s opinion as something more than an opinion and I especially appreciate it when a pastor is humble enough to admit that his opinion is just that, an opinion.
Pastors Thabiti Anyabile and Voddie Baucham recently published articles regarding the Ferguson case at The Gospel Coalition website:
Thabiti Anyabwile – The Ferguson Grand Jury Has Given Us Our Marching Orders
and
Voddie Baucham – Thoughts on Ferguson – Baucham posted the same article on his Facebook page and as of now there are over 4,000 “likes” and 8,000 “shares.”
If you read the articles, pay attention to how these pastors come across in tone. Do they identify that the article is their opinion? That’s important.
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Now, you might think I want to make this post about the Ferguson situation. I do not. I repeat – this article is not about the Ferguson situation, but about behavior in response to the Ferguson situation.
Take a look at this. Open air preacher, Tony Miano, clearly likes Voddie Baucham’s article. That’s fine. He’s entitled to his opinion.
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However, now look at how Tony Miano goes after Thabiti Anyabwile publicly on Twitter. Keep in mind that Tony Miano has been tweeting a lot about this case, occasionally mentioning his prior job as deputy sheriff as if to bolster his words.
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Gotta love it when Twitter Super-heroine Christian Janeway comes to the defense of Anyabwile with a warning. And kudos to Pastor Anyabwile for handling Miano’s aggressive and divisive behavior with grace.
In the following Twitter exchange, you see someone arguing with Tony Miano. Look what happens when @Cvofromthemo dares to disagree with Miano:
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Lest you be like Satan????? Did Tony Miano really say that?
It’s one thing to have an opinion about a political situation, it’s a whole other thing to apply your spiritual interpretation of what is going on politically and then insist that your interpretation is the only correct interpretation. It really crosses the line when someone is so convinced they are right about their interpretation that they accuse someone who doesn’t agree with you that they are like Satan. Give me a break. This is bully behavior.
Thank God Tony Miano is no pastor, but there are pastors who behave just like this. If you question them and their opinion, you may be accused of being divisive, a Jezebel, or even Satan. Watch out for spiritual bullies!
I had to laugh at this last tweet from Tony Miano:
Spiritual Sounding Board 
How do either of these men know what happened in Ferguson or what the outcome of the grand jury should have been? I don’t believe they were there. Media and star political pastors should keep their noses out of things and let the system take its course.
A few years back we had an incident with a homeless man who had some mental issues and had been an ongoing problem. He threatened store clerks, stole from their business and was a repeat offender. He then pulled a knife on police officers and after a time he was shot and killed.
The media and some other well known political buttinski pastors got involved. Good police officers were fired or demoted. The mother of this 30 something year old man brought a law suit against the city. She hadn’t bothered to see him or try to help him in years. She wound up with a large settlement “for the loss of her son”, which I truly do not believe should have been allowed. She hadn’t bothered to claim him as a son for a long time and didn’t lift a finger to try to help him or get him to an institution that maybe could have helped him.
These kinds of incidents are truly sad, but not always unavoidable. I wasn’t there and don’t have an opinion.
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I was actually glad to see TGC airing a variety of opinions about the Ferguson issue. Given the responses of the other conservative evangelicals I know, I was afraid it would be a one-sided “Darren Wilson is innocent”-fest. I don’t actually have an opinion on what happened, for the same reason Brenda gave above (I wasn’t at the scene or on the grand jury and haven’t gone through any of the publicly released documents), but I think we should at least be able to hear both “sides” of a big publicly divisive issue like this. Though I do wish they could have found someone other than Voddie Baucham to represent one particular “side.” There’s a whole host of reasons TGC shouldn’t be hooking up with or promoting Baucham (i.e. patriarchy and the NCFIC) – though I will grant that none of them have to do with race or Ferguson.
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The point of this article is not about Ferguson, it is about what can happen when someone in the Christian spotlight says they are right and anyone who disagrees with them is wrong. It’s about bully and spiritually abusive behavior that harms. Let’s try to stay clear from the Feeguson issue.
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I chuckled (with a gentle and quiet submissive spirit, of course) when I saw that last tweet of his too, JA.
“Lest you be like Satan????? Did Tony Miano really say that?”
He says it a LOT. He borrows it from Paul Washer, who borrows it from I don’t know.
“It really crosses the line when someone is so convinced they are right about their interpretation that they accuse someone who doesn’t agree with you that they are like Satan. Give me a break. This is bully behavior.”
I think this is the point you want to have conversation about, if I am reading your post right. Well, he has a strong opinions on homosexuality, gay marriage and abortion. Those who practice, promote, support those things are like Satan, Miano would say. I think Miano would like to think himself far, far, away from being like those people who practice these things (who are like Satan). You would think that he would wish to stay away from those who he deems think like Satan and he does do that by blocking them on twitter, FB, etc., and announces the blocking.
But the fact that he sees no problem with giving money to Starbucks when they very openly promote gay marriage and abortion and he, in part, makes his living by preaching strongly against those very things is incredible to me. Starbucks is not the only place to buy coffee. He willingly chooses to gives money to a company that is being like Satan (since they deny that gay marriage is not an option) thus Starbucks is twisting scripture in Miano’s view. Yet he has his picture taken there with the SIREN cup in full view lol and posts it on twitter.
But then Miano wouldn’t be coooool and wouldn’t get to post Starbucks (where all the cool people go for coffee) pictures on his twitter if he actually followed his convictions and CHOSE to give his donated coffee money to a company that does not so publically promote the very things he preaches against. You can’t boycott everything. But you can choose some companies with which to do business.
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Why is it that these morons always insert themselves and their warped opinions in places they have no business?
JA removed content about Ferguson. If conversation goes there, we’ll miss the focus of spiritual bullies as others chime in with their perceptions.
Let’s keep it focused on bully behavior by Christian leaders and what that feels like for us “little people” who may have a different opinion.
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And Miano is in love with himself and his opinions. He’s got one helluva superiority complex.
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I have strong opinions about most things but at least I do my homework and I don’t think disagreement is Satanic. I would bet that neither man has read the PDF of the testimony before the grand jury. I have. It drives me crazy when someone accuses me of just knowing what the media tells me. I had a spirited Facebook discussion with my husband’s former father in law on the Zimmerman case. He was quite surprised to know that I had seen the entire trial, listened to all the 911 calls and looked at all the documents on the court website and he backed off from telling me my opinion was uninformed.
On the different issue of police encounters with the mentally ill and impaired, I am currently involved in advocacy efforts and I don’t think the public understands how difficult it is to get help for an adult. After every tragedy, I hear people ask, Didn’t his family see how sick he was? Many times the answer is yes and they did everything legally possible but their efforts are thwarted by a very reluctant legal system. And even when you can get someone to an ER or a state hospital, the resources just aren’t there and they are released after a short time. This isn’t the place to go into the details but I know personally how impossible it can be to get help for someone who is a danger to self and others.
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And Miano is in love with himself and his opinions. He’s got one helluva superiority complex.
Thank you for saying that. The man has an incredible knack for making my jaw drop. He is exhibit A of what Paul was talking about in 1 Cor 13:1-2. I wish he would take his own advice and keep his opinions to himself.
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You brought up another example, Diane, and it’s also good to consider when thinking about your apiritual leaders: do they say one thing and do they other? What is their response if you challenge them on what you see as hypocritical? Do they shift the topic back to you and attack you or do they take an honest look at themselves?
I’d like to see someone challenge him on the Starbucks issue because you are right, he does make a big issue about his key topics (abortion, gay marriage, homosexuality), but to promote Starbucks by taking selfie pictures and having devotions there, does seem hypocritical.
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This affects me personally, Julie Anne, and my family. We don’t need these morons pontificating on something they know nothing about. Let them live here among the residents and get to know them for awhile. I despise the Reformed Big Dogs who throw their weight around, and condemning anyone who doesn’t agre with their opinions.
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That’s a good point, wwtt2. They form their opinions based on what? News? Prior years as a deputy? But not being eye witness.
Throwing their weight around is exactly my beef. It says: my thoughts and conclusions are better than yours. And your thoughts don’t count for anything.
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They think their self-proclaimed “authority” is God-given.
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@ waitingforthetrumpet2
“I despise the Reformed Big Dogs who throw their weight around, and condemning anyone who doesn’t agre with their opinions.”
And here we have a self-proclaimed, Masters Seminary drop out, supposed evangelist (although his home church is not supporting him as such) who, while condemning those who promote/affirm gay marriage and abortion, does not even condemn something as small as a restaurant who does openly promote those things.
Some of these self-appointed ones really don’t believe their own condemnations.
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They just wanna be heard. It makes them feel important.
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“Entitlement to an opinion doesn’t mean it is always wise to express it.”
LOL! He really is something else and this statement alone shows me his narcissistic nature. He can see the fault in someone else that he so blatantly displays.
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Please don’t confuse me with the facts???
In the circles I feel most comfortable, there is some questioning on the consistency of the image of God between the Old and New Testament (I’ll land the plane in a minute). As one friend put it, it seems like God got saved somewhere between Malachi and Matthew.
(Landing it now…) I am fascinated that we return to Old Testament (or better said “Old Covenant” thinking when trying to point out or, for that matter, justify sin. To go to the 10 commandments to discuss whether the 6th was talking of killing or murder? Many in my circles would say that Jesus taught us to lay down our arms and prepare to take whatever violence comes our way because that is what Jesus did.
What would Jesus do? Maybe that is a better guide? Not for the mother in this HuffingtonPost article.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mick-mooney/wwjd-what-would-jesus-do-_b_6010114.html
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Joelfrederick,
Interesting article and quite profound. I would have loved to see the boy chasing the pastor out of the church. Much to think about.
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Joel Frederick,
Not to defend Tony, but the way that I read his reference to the 6th commandment was to distinguish the difference between killing and murder. It’s not a sin to kill. Our Bibles state, Thou Shalt Not Kill. Tony is right in regards to the actual Hebrew word, in which really means killing with malice, which is murder (premeditated killing). That Hebrew word needed to be referenced by Tony for him to make his point.
In addition, I do not believe that Jesus taught us to lay down our arms. When we see the Last Supper, Jesus told his disciples to get some swords. He had said this because he was going away, and that they would need to defend themselves while spreading the gospel. The disciples responded that they have two swords. Jesus said, “that’ll do”, or something to that effect. Later, Peter used his sword to defend Jesus from getting to the cross. But, the whole point of Jesus’ life was to get to the cross. So, Peter got scolded for using his sword in an incorrect manner.
In addition, Luke 14:13 (Counting the Cost)
“Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand?”
So, what would Jesus do? I thing that Jesus would follow his own rules, and tell people not to lie, not to steal, not to bully, not to talk back to authority, LEST they be killed by authority, for the authority has a sword, and they are ministers to God.
The poor, the oppressed, the weak, the needy and the fatherless reference is something that should have come many years earlier, so that one does not lie, does not steal, does not bully, does not disrespect authority.
And now, my landing now…Tony needs to take his own advice.
Ed
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We need to also remember that when Satan tempted Jesus, Satan quoted scripture to Jesus perfectly to use it against him. But, Jesus scripture whipped Satan right back. This, I believe was his point. And, his point is biblical, based on Satan tempting Jesus.
Now, as much as I despise Tony, he’s got a point. A great point. But, Tony refuses to take his own advice. I know that Tony twists scripture all the time. And, he bullies, and he lies, etc.
Ed
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Ed, the guy interacting with Miano was not Satan. He’s a man with his own interpretation that he believes is correct. His heart is in the right place, not for evil. Since when do Christians tell other Christians with differing opinions they are like Satan? What am I missing here?
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Julie Anne,
Oh, I know that. But, let’s also look at the Pharisees who also believed that they were correct.
I do not believe that Tony was calling this person evil. I believe that Tony was giving this person a warning to not twist scripture, which is LIKE Satan, not Satan himself.
I am all for a spirited debate when it comes to the Bible. Sometimes, either side, if not both sides have an agenda, and in this case, that agenda may be political. We do have the left, and the right. The individual debating Tony was on the left, and Tony was on the right. Agenda was at play, that I can see. Politics.
Some Christians believe that Jesus is all about “Love, Joy, Peace, etc.”. That’s the left. But then the whole story isn’t presented, and so it needs to be balance out with, The Rest of the Story, and Tony did that with presenting Romans 13. It seems to me that the left wanted to ignore Romans 13 altogether. And in that sense, the left is twisting scripture to adhere to his own beliefs that he thinks is correct, because the left refuses to acknowledge things written after Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Many on the left can only quote the Sermon on the Mount, but ignore the rest of what Jesus said. Hollywood is full of those people.
Now, getting back to the Pharisees, who also believed that they were correct, how did Jesus resolve that issue? “Your Father, the Devil”, etc.
But, my real point was that Tony needs to follow his own advice. Tony is all about himself, and, in my opinion, I do not believe that Tony is a Christian. He’s not a brother in my eyes. How does he Love His Neighbor? The answer to that question is my determination that Jesus will say to him, depart from me, I never knew you.
Ed
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Haven’t taken the time to see what Thabiti Anyabile is saying that is giving Miano a pretext to indulge his usual attack dog tactics, but I’m thinking that if Miano is against him, there is a more than even chance Anyabile has something to say that would be well worth our paying attention to.
While I appreciate Ed’s point about Miano saying some things that may have some validity, Miano does not wield truth (or maybe I should say “truth”) in a manner that builds up. He wields “truth” as an offensive weapon, in the service of attempted character assassination. Miano does not recognize that he has bent the “truths” with which he attacks into boomerangs.
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Joel Frederick,
I read the article that you posted a link to. I must say that the Huffington Post is a newspaper that despises Christians. The articles in that paper are to mock Christianity. And they do so in the article, as well.
Be reminded that the Apostle Paul said in Ephesians 4:28, “Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.”
Do what no more? Didn’t Jesus tell the adulteress woman to “sin no more”?
Once you get the idea that it is wrong to sin, in this case, steal or commit adultery, you need to change your behavior SO THAT you can do good. Behavioral change is a good thing, not a bad thing. The Apostle Paul was telling believers to change their sinful behaviors. Is it a sin to steal? Is it a sin to commit adultery? Where did we get that idea?
Ed
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Ed, you’re going to love that I’m picking on you today 🙂 It’s been too long!
Ok, it’s annoying me that you are labeling Huffington Post as a newspaper that despises Christians. That’s a big ol’ paintbrush you’re holding, bro. I have to look at my own lawsuit and the coverage they provided. They didn’t hate me. Now, it was Chuck O’Neal who was the one who created this monster to begin with, but their article was spot on about my case – not one bit of exaggeration or embellishment. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/15/beaverton-grace-bible-church-oregon-family-bad-review_n_1518399.html
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When are the folks at GCC ever going to put this loudmouth under church discipline for being a foolish embarrassment and not being able to control his tongue? And if they did, we he submit to it? I doubt it.
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Larry,
Let’s see, I think he’s been to 3 churches in 6 years – the last church didn’t want to lay hands on him as an open air preacher (my words), so he left. This would be strictly against appropriate reasons for leaving a church at Grace Community – they do not look kindly on leaving a church for frivolous reasons.
It would not look good for him to leave GCC. He’s between a rock and a hard place.
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Miano does not wield truth (or maybe I should say “truth”) in a manner that builds up. He wields “truth” as an offensive weapon
Gary, this is it exactly.
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I’ve noticed on his “recommendation” page on the cross encounters website, there are interestingly no comments, good or bad, from his senior pastor, Johnny Mac, although he has an endorsement from a gazillion other people. Hmm… Wonder if there is a reason he won’t lend him a word of endorsement.
I understand that some people shoot off at the mouth quickly, and in a weird sort of way, I have some compassion for the guy, being a sinner and all. I can shoot my mouth off before thinking too. Where he loses me is his failure to ever acknowledge or apologize for being a total weenie head. He really ought to apologize to Thabiti for that, as well as about a zillion other people he has unjustly attacked via his twitter account.
The first step of church discipline for this guy is to demand he suspend his twitter account. Come on Johnny Mac, Phil Johnson, etc. Step up.
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Julie Anne,
Yes, it has been a while, and I do have to acknowledge, I miss it here. By the time that I get home, all I wanna do is eat and sleep. This 4 day weekend thing is really nice.
Now, in regards to your case with the Huffington Post, I believe that it was still mocking Christianity as a whole, i.e., “These are the dumb things that Christians do” type of thing. People like Chuck and his clan give Christians a bad name, and thus, the Huffington Post was eager to capitalize on that bad name.
When I log into my internet, my default home page is Yahoo.com. I always scroll down to see what the news is, and almost on a daily basis, there is a religious post on Christianity in the Huffington Post. I read them all, because, as you know, I am interested in controversy concerning Christianity.
Ed
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Larry: “I understand that some people shoot off at the mouth quickly, and in a weird sort of way, I have some compassion for the guy, being a sinner and all. I can shoot my mouth off before thinking too. Where he loses me is his failure to ever acknowledge or apologize for being a total weenie head. ”
Please don’t think this an isolated “shoot off at the mouth quickly” incident. Miano pulls this stuff all the time.
Bonus points for you for calling him a “total weenie head!” LOL!
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Larry – In JMac’s defense, he’s not on social media. I think he recently did a special even on Twitter, but in general, he just doesn’t do it. Phil Johnson, however, is definitely on social media. He stepped down from Pyromaniacs, but is on Twitter giving his $.02. You can see ™ tweeting and tagging Phil Johnson. It makes you look good to tag all the movers and shakers in that world – oh and post Twitter pics. It reminds me of high school girls and their selfies.
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Well, I think Huff Post and all media should post the truth about abusers like CON, so even if Huff Post is normally against Christianity, kudos to them for keeping it real without embellishing. That is what I look at – truth. They did better than MSNBC.com.
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Oh, and Larry, Phil Johnson won’t step up. He only stepped up to the plate on my case in order to clear GCC’s name/reputation. Was there any action on his part regarding spiritual abuse, online behavior, etc, of my former pastor? Nope. And they were perfectly fine with allowing a pastor with a revoked license continue going to Shepherd’s Conference. That’s cuz he has the right Calvinist message when he does open air preaching at Abortion clinics. See, you get brownie points for that and then you can overlook the 10+ years of abuse that former members incurred. Save those babies, but to heck with the church members sitting in your pew as they quietly leave and self-condemn themselves that they were never saved because they are so wretched and don’t understand about the grace of God. Oh, boy, my fingers are flying – I’m going to hit reply before I get in trouble.
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This is all over the place for me (regarding the Twitter exchange Julie Anne posted of all these people).
While I probably would agree more with Miano’s / Baucham’s views on Ferguson (that is all I will say on that topic, I say this only in passing to explain why I find this weird – I won’t go into detail, since Julie Anne has asked us not to), in this particular Twitter exchange JA posted, I’m more on Team Anyabwile (even though I didn’t agree with all his comments in his Ferguson-type article).
I thought Miano was being short and terse with Anyabwile, and I can’t believe he was taking offense at being called “dude.”
Concering Anyabwile. I at times agree with some of his views I’ve seen in the past on other topics, but on other ones, no.
I don’t know how Anyabwile can hold the positions he does on race and race relations but he supports gender complementariansm, if I remember right. Both American racism of the 50s and I think 60s was based on the “separate but equal” mantra, which is the very same thing gender complementarians of today try to based their sexism on (women are spiritually equal to men, but not to be equal in role).
You would think the guy could spot the similarity there and reject gender complementarianism, but no, I’ve read his editorials in the past where he defended it.
As per Miano’s tweets with the guy with the name “C. Vo.”
I didn’t take Miano’s remarks in the same way Julie Anne did. I see it more as chapmaned24 did above. I don’t think Minao was saying, “If you disagree with me on a topic, you are Satan.”
I think Miano was just conveying the idea that sometimes people can unintentionally distort what the Bible says to make a point about something, or they can and do sometimes take Bible verses out of context and misapply them.
(Having said this, I generally disagree with Miano’s opinions usually, or if not with his opinions, with how he chooses to express them.)
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Julie Anne,
You said:
“kudos to them for keeping it real without embellishing. That is what I look at – truth. They did better than MSNBC.com.”
You gotta realize, tho, that neither you, nor Chuck was the purpose of the article. They may have written truth, but their motive was not about truth. If they were all about truth, they would not mock Christianity, let alone mock it on a daily basis. Their purpose is to minimize Christian beliefs as nothing more than archaic, and out of date nonsense. They are the the far left MEDIA. They don’t believe in Christianity, hence, they make fun of it. And your case was a “This is why we at the Huffington Post aren’t Christians?” Their gospel is to be free from Christianity.
I listen to Mark Levine on AM Newstalk radio in the afternoon drive home. He always calls MSNBC “MSLSD”. Other newsoutlets:
New York Times=New York Slimes
The Associated Press=The Associated DEpressed
He’s got a lot more, too.
Ed
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Regarding chapmaned24’s comments to Joel Frederick.
I agree more with chapmaned24’s views. Joel seemed to be promoting the idea that Christians should be very passive in life.
When people ask, “What would Jesus do?” (and my mother did so frequently when I was a kid, she did this to me and my siblings) the assumed response is, “Why naturally, Jesus would love, forgive, and give cuddles, rainbows, and unicorns to people who were mistreating him, and he expects the same of you.”
What they tend to forget are all the times Jesus boldly confronted people. Jesus was a mix of gentle and sweet – but also tough, direct, and fierce.
My mother was a traditional Christian woman who had that “Jesus was always meek and mild” view. She was codependent. She brought me up to be that way, too. I was brought up to only focus on the “turn the cheek, and love people, give them candy and hugs and rainbows” stuff in the Bible.
What I’ve come to understand that it’s a balancing act. There are times you should be kind, loving, and peaceful with people and not return hate for hate, and other times when you will need to use assertiveness, maybe physical violence (if you’re being physically assaulted), or lawsuits, or arguments, to protect yourself from aggressive or criminal people.
If you routinely go through life with the “good Christians should always be loving and peaceful to every one all the time no matter what” mindset, you are opening yourself up to be abused, exploited, and taken advantage of by other people.
The more you defer or cave in to abusers or users, the more they will abuse and use you. This is a point that especially comes up time and time again in books and blogs about domestic violence: the more the wives submit to the abusive husband and shower him with love, rainbows, and puppies (as many preachers and churches advise them to do), the violence does not cease, it actually usually escalates
There is a lot of truth in the expression that you teach other people how to treat you.
Two books I read about abusers (and similar topics) said that when you “turn the other cheek” and put up with, and repeatedly go along with, mistreatment, that many people who mistreat you, will view your acquiescence as your permission or willingness to be abused.
(The authors explained that mean, violent, or rude people do not usually perceive your pacifist, loving behavior in response to their abuse as being noble or lofty.)
In my own life, the only time bullies backed down is when I confronted them, which I did not do often, as I was raised to think that sweet Christian ladies are always supposed to back down and be doormats.
All my weeks or months of niceness and buying them free coffee and showing love and so on, did not win my bullies over. Only being assertive and standing up for myself put a halt to the bullying.
Having boundaries – being assertive, standing up for yourself when being abused or treated rudely – is not an unloving thing.
For Christians who have a hard time wrapping their heads around that notion, you might want to read books by Christians such as “No More Christian Nice Guy” by Paul Couglin, or “Boundaries,” by Dr. Cloud, Dr. Townsend.
I just get very alarmed when I see Christians basically suggesting that being a loving, sweet, pacifist is always the (“Christian”) solution to abusers or to violence. I lived with that outlook my whole life, and it actually made me attractive to abusers and exploiters. I was constantly attracting mean, selfish, rude, etc, people to myself.
It took me years to figure out why that was so and reverse it, and it involved learning to be tougher and not being so sweet, giving, self-less, and loving all the time to every person, especially to the people who act like jerks.
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Regarding Huffington Post, and chapmaned24’s comments. I know what chapmaned24 means.
Huffington Post is usually hostile, dismissive, or negative towards right wing, conservative Christian theology and denominations. Many of the Christian writers I’ve seen on their site tend to defend and promote liberal denominations or liberal interpretations of Scripture.
That does not mean of course that every last Huff Po writer is aggressive or mean towards every last conservative Christian (some writers are liberal and respectful of conservative Christians as persons but still support a liberal view on theology), but the overall tone of their site is left wing and unsympathetic towards conservatives or conservative positions on issues.
Kind of like how most everyone views Fox cable News as being sympathetic towards conservatives, while the mainstream (NBC, ABC, etc) and MSNBC channels are viewed as liberal news outlets.
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Kathi, I know this isn’t an isolated incident with Miano. It is who he is, but I could be more easily understanding if he would own up to his stupid remarks, even if he apologized a million times a day for being a jerk. I know people that are loud mouths, but they eat their words graciously and apologize. I think he wears his loudmouth persona as an open air evangelists badge of honor, like some sort of gift of an evangelist, but more often than not gets proven to act like an idiot, IMO. He needs to realize its not a “ministry” to go around tweeting insults to people that he doesn’t agree with theologically or socially.
When someone is so vocally abrasive all the time, but yet they NEVER feel they have a reason to apologize for ANYTHING, that says a lot. You have to be a total arrogant “weenie head” to think you can be so quick to chew people out all the time for everything and never be in the wrong in your remarks.
And regarding all the uproar about Ferguson. Miano’s attitude seems to me to be that of the type of cop that everyone despises and causes so much of these tensions. I imagine him to be one of those loudmouth cops that nobody liked and got his jollies out of yelling at people.
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Larry said,
That sounds remarkably like preacher Mark Driscoll, too.
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I respectfully disagree with you, Daisy. If you (general) are going to confront someone about misapplying a verse out of context, you sure as heck don’t accuse them of being like Satan. You deal with it graciously – saying that you do not interpret it the same way and explain why. And I am aware of Twitters 140 Character limitation, but Miano is such a Twitter expert, he knows how to put up a more lengthy note on Twitter to fully explain his position. He chose to instead throw out this favorite quote and used it to shut down conversation: “I’m right, you’re wrong, and quit being like Satan.” That is very poor behavior. Was Miano dealing with Satan or someone who was trying to be like Satan? Nope. He was dealing with a Believer and treating the Believer as if he were Satan – – with rudeness. I’ve seen Miano employ this method many times on Twitter and it’s so distasteful.
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Julie Anne,
Yes, these “theologians” spend so much time on twitter like teenage girls, as you say, and when they are not, they seem to be traveling or headlining conferences talking about “the gospel.” I’m always left with the question of when they actually have time preach this gospel to people that haven’t heard it or aren’t their conference groupies.
I don’t give Johnny Mac a pass for not being on social media. If he has congregants who have very public “ministries” then he is responsible for their stupidity while they represent the congregation. Don’t you think?
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Yea, I still give JMac a pass. Not everyone is computer savvy. I think Johnson and Riccardi should be talking to TM about his public behavior. But the reality is that PJ also lacks graciousness in his dealings with people. A scroll back on Pyro gives clear evidence of this. It’s like they go to mean school. I don’t get why kindness is so difficult.
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The way I’ve always viewed JMac is as a man who is concerned with his reputation above being above the fray and not willing to make personal, cutting, and rude comments. Therefore he has attack dogs like Johnson, Miano, and whoever, who flap their mouths quite intentionally. I liken it to a mafia crime boss who doesn’t actually do the dirty work, but has low level guys to go out and bust the knee caps. It always gave me the impression of being a very intentional tactic, where he could literally deny saying something about someone like say, John Piper, but his absence of condemnation for Johnson, who has been very critical of someone like John Piper, speaks volumes.
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“And I’m not your ‘Dude’.”
Best – and perhaps worst – of all Tony’s tweet lines, JA. I pray Tony will learn gracious speech, as Paul prayed for the Colossians: “Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone.” (Col. 4:6.)
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Not that there is anything wrong with being critical of John Piper, but I’m speaking of the manner in which he acts like he went to “mean school.” Good one!
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Did someone mention Piper? Here is a tweet from Miano to Piper. https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/status/537104609496825857
https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/status/537104609496825857
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If he’s using the example of Jesus rebuking Peter with “Get thee behind me, SATAN!”, all I can say is preacher-boy’s got a real high opinion of himself.
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Julie Anne,
Now, I agree with you in regards to the character of Miano. That said:
How did the Apostle Paul confront those who disagreed with him? Did he ever give the benefit of the doubt to the other person that disagreed with him? Absolutely not.
The Apostle Paul was indeed one of those “I am right, you are wrong” kind of person.
Oh FOOLISH Galatians!
Jesus said that if you say “Thou Fool” that you are in danger of hell fire. In 1 Cor 15, Paul said, Thou Fool. There are numerous places where the Apostle Paul was pretty ticked off at believers, and he didn’t mince his words to other believers that disagreed with him. He was right, they were wrong. And he had to correct the believers.
In regards to Miano’s statement, I agree with the premise, that in my view states, “Do not use scripture against me, unless you wish to be scripture whipped by me.”
I do not, not for even a second, believe that Miano was calling this person Satan, or evil. Satan twisted scripture, and Jesus scripture whipped him. And, the Apostle Paul certainly scripture whipped many “believers”, with attitude, too.
Again, all I am saying in all of this is that Miano needs to take his own advice.
Ed
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@Larry:
Plausible Deniability plus “Let Bubba do the Dirty Work.”
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@Larry:
Like Baby-Boomer Trendoids who spent so much time and energy “Finding Themselves(TM)” they never had the time or energy to HAVE a Self to find?
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JA, was Milano a Scientologist in another life? Hubbard always taught, “Attack and never defend.” This is what Milano’s tweets do. He bullies and intimidates those who disagree with him. He shuts down any conversation before it can begin. Milano and Miscavage ($ciontology’s dictator) must have been separated at birth!
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So, Ed, are we supposed to emulate Christ or Paul? Help me out here. I just don’t see how one can justify this behavior when it is consistently used to shut down conversation and bully.
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Julie Anne,
Paul said to follow him as he follows Christ. We cannot dismiss Paul. Why? Peter acknowledges that some things that Paul writes is hard to be understood, which people wrest, as with other scripture to their own destruction.
Where did Paul get his marching orders from?
Ed
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Did you notice how Milano used the archaic form “Twist not scripture” rather than the common “Don’t twist scripture”? An effort to make himself sound more biblical/prophetic, perhaps, to increase the illusion that he was speaking with authority over the guy he was rebuking? I hate that sort of thing. All he really accomplished was to make himself sound out of touch with real people today.
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I’m trying to connect with you, Ed, but Miano is no Paul. We don’t have to dismiss Paul, but when choosing to relate with people, do we come across like an arrogant jerk “just because Paul did.” I don’t think so. I think we’re to follow Jesus. If you can convince me otherwise, I’ll pay for your pizza and beer, Ed, next time I’m in your area. LOL
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2 Peter 3:16
“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
I think I should have quoted it so as to include the words, “unlearned” and “unstable”.
In regards to Milano bullying, I agree, he bullies people in general. In regards to shutting people down, that is the nature of debate. However, Milano shuts people down in multiple ways, such as blocking people from Twitter, etc. HIs debates are not honest debates. They are one sided debates, and that is a Reformed practice all over the web.
Ed
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Ed, one problem with comparing/contrasting Paul to Miano. Paul had apostolic authority directly from God and could rebuke authoritatively Miano has nothing of the sorts and therefore has no right to speak with the same level of authority on debatable matters, like whose fault the Ferguson fiasco is. If he wants to quote the Apostle Paul directly, then I’ll accept assertiveness. But if he wants to speak on his opinions or interpretations, his words at least need to be filled with meekness, kindness, grace, etc (also things taught by good ole Paul, btw.)
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Julie Anne,
Well, this is where I see Paul as assertive, not a jerk. Bold, not arrogant. And, people often confuse those two situations. Rebuke is a word used in the Bible. What is rebuke? That is what scripture is FOR, for rebuking other believers for their incorrect “from the heart” belief.
If people are wrong, they need to be confronted, and corrected. Otherwise we have a bunch of Christians that “DON’T HAVE A CLUE”.
In 1 Cor 15, there were people being baptized as Christians that don’t even believe in the afterlife. Should we allow that to stand? No. Why? Because if Christ be not risen, they are still in their sins, and their faith is in vain. This is why later on, Paul said, THOU FOOL, because people were asking STUPID questions about what the body will be in the resurrection. They didn’t have a clue, because they did not believe in an afterlife to begin with, and yet, they proclaim being Christians.
My question here then is, are we reading and understanding our OWN bibles? Or are we relying on ONE person at church to preach it to us? Are we being critical of what the preacher is preaching? Do we verify what he states is true or false? Or, do we just take his word for it?
Where is the Berean’s? They didn’t believe anything that anyone said about anything until they could verify for themselves what the scripture states. And they were, as the Apostle Paul states, MORE NOBLE, because of it. And what scripture did they seek? Genesis to Malichai, as there was no “NEW TEST” scripture yet. It was still in the process of being written.
So, the question is, what was the apostle Paul preaching to the Bereans that they would have to search Genesis to Malichia? He tells us. Do we bother reading it?
I’d say that most that goes to church takes the preachers word for it, and never verifies. Why? Because he claims to have the Education, and the pew sitters are all dumb sheep.
Ed
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Larry,
Apostolic authority? Really? Anyone that knows the scriptures has the same authority that he did. Paul EQUIPPED us.
Ed
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Julie Anne wrote:
A scroll back on Pyro gives clear evidence of this. It’s like they go to mean school. I don’t get why kindness is so difficult.
Probably over-active testosterone glands which tend to block out and override kindness.
Mark Twain (creator of the character Muff Potter) had this to say:
The only very marked difference between the average civilized man and the average savage is that the one is gilded and the other is painted.
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Could these pastors (so-called) just get back to preaching?
And could Tony Miano please, please, put a sock in it??
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No Ed, Paul did not equip us to speak authoritatively on debatable topics like Ferguson, MO. The Bible says to be followers of Paul, as he was a follower of Christ. It doesn’t say anything about following Ed or Larry. This is exactly why many people who know the scriptures, as you say, come to different conclusions. We will never have the same knowledge or authority as the inspired writers of the NT.
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“But, my real point was that Tony needs to follow his own advice. Tony is all about himself, and, in my opinion, I do not believe that Tony is a Christian. He’s not a brother in my eyes”.
I am inclined to agree with you. He certainly shows no sign of any Christian thinking or behaviour. And he most emphatically is NOT my brother.
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after reading some of these comments, I have to say I’m thankful that I’ve never heard of either of these so called “important” persons. I”m better off I think.
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Actually, I prefer not to make a call on whether or not he is actually saved. That’s taking a page out of the reformed book of damning people to hell who disagree with me because they aren’t “real Christians.”
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Thank you for your kind words Julie.
In the year I’ve followed your blog, I’ve seen Tony Miano’s vicious attacks on you over and over again. I’ve come to realize that engaging him with kindness (as TA was trying to do)is pointless, and will be as fruitful as trying to wrangle emotion from a Borg. He’s determined to start a fight.
People like this are mentally unbalanced, and may even feel *satisfied* after stirring up conflict. As much as I disagree with TA about many issues (Calvinism, his support of Mahaney, etc) he’s a brother in the Lord, & should know when his efforts towards peacemaking will be wasted. God bless you, & I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.
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Larry,
Oh, yes he did. We know good from evil. We know that we are to obey authority that hold the sword, for they are ministers of God. Now, if you were a follower of Paul, as he follows Christ, we would be “LIKE MINDED”. Scripture is the Word of God. We use scripture to rebuke, reproof, and correct. Now, some wish to ignore scripture. Some wish to ignore that a certain someone would still be alive if he didn’t steal, didn’t do drugs, and didn’t challenge authority that holds the sword (Romans 13). Christians should get in the debate about Ferguson, because apparently, there is no fear of God or authority in many people in Ferguson. They openly sin, thinking that it is OK.
Romans 13:1-7
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
1 Timothy 5:20
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
2 Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
Titus 1:13
This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Titus 2:15
These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
Paul preached the Holy Spirit to us, telling us that we need not any man to teach us, and why? Because the Spirit is the teacher.
The Apostle Paul wants us to grow in knowledge. Even God states that HIS people perish due to lack of knowledge.
There are different levels of faith, and knowledge. Baby Christians do not have the maturity as those who have more knowledge. But all knowledge is of God, by the Word of God.
We all have Bibles at our fingertips, and there is no excuse for Christians to not weigh in on Ferguson just because we were not witnesses. We should all be quoting Romans 13.
Paul says that you will be filled with the knowledge of God’s will in all spiritual, wisdom and understanding so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord. That comes from the study of the Word of God under the illumination of the Holy Spirit. We can please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of Christ Jesus. Spiritual growth is not automatic, but we have been equipped us by the Word and the Spirit.
We are equipped. The Word of God.
Ed
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Larry,
I have no problem about making a claim about Milano’s salvation. The Word of God indicates that you can tell a tree by its fruit. A good tree vs. a bad tree. There are many examples of how to distinguish, and it has nothing to do with reform.
Ed
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Of course, these guys use that same verse about good fruit to be able to write a blank check of damnation to their opponents. Don’t play that game. Before you know it, you’ve got a bunch of people looking at each other, pointing out the others sin (everyone has plenty to point out), and claiming the other isn’t really saved because they have bad fruit. Frankly, that judgment is presumptuous and not anyone’s to make other than the Lord Himself. People shouldn’t judge another’s salvation, but they can and should judge true/false teachers.
I’m sure after you go back to read those passages, you’ll agree that the context is speaking about false teachers and not general all around jerks. All people, including you and me, can be jerks. We can be the meanest of people, although I like to think I’m not as insufferable as Tony Miano, and that doesn’t change overnight when we become Christians. I’m sure to the people that Tony likes, he might be an all around nice guy, but I think he is a total jerk. But I concede that he may very well be a saved jerk.
I do believe this idea of judging other professing Christians as unconverted does have a lot to do with deformed…umm…reformed theology. It all revolves around the skewed view of perseverance that many like Miano, Ray Comfort, Todd Friel, etc. etc. etc. have. That being that if someone is really not a nice person or has some special sin that makes us feel morally superior to them, then they must have not really have been saved or else their worked out faith would have help them overcome that sin.
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And ultimately, when you take Romans 13 in its context, you are going to have differing OPINIONS ON DEBATABLE MATTERS. Romans wasn’t written in the context of a democratic republic, where we have the right to assemble, protest, and tell the cops that we think they are overbearing bullies. I’m sure everyone agrees a robber should expect to be arrested, and that a criminal should obey a LAWFUL order, etc. Who really is debating that here? Don’t build strawmen. But to say that Paul gives you the authority to pronounce your opinion on all related matters to the racial tension as God’s pronouncement, is asinine frankly. Thabiti Anyabwile made a valid argument, and although I don’t agree with his conclusions, his points can be understood. And the way Miano responded to him was ridiculous. But I’m sure, in his flawed mind, he felt like he has the same right as you feel, to speak authoritatively as someone who has all of the answers.
Whether you like it or not, you nor I aren’t inspired of God. And from time to time, you misinterpret passages of the Bible. We all do. And over time, as we gain knowledge or our convictions change, we read the passages with a different light. The fact is that they only people who can have a perfect understanding of the intent of the writings are God, and the author he inspired. Everyone else taints it with their sinful bias. So no…emphatically, no. You don’t have the same level of authority as Paul because you make mistakes, sin, and are gradually learning through this life.
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And all those blasted typos prove my point that I’m uninspired 😉
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Larry,
I am going to try this again First, I am not reformed. Second:
1 Timothy 5:20
Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
I see no problem judging people in the church. Why?
From Paul’s own words:
1 Cor 5:12-13 (NIV)
What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
That is a case where Paul was NOT a witness. But Paul JUDGED.
Verse 3
For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this.
I have the authority to use the words of Jesus in regards to fruit. You seem to want to ignore it, just because of an incorrect use from the reformers? You see, there is a difference between using scripture correctly, and twisting scripture. The latter needs rebuked, and the former needs to be adhered to. Jesus cursed a fig tree that was not producing fruit. That was for our example that we had better be producing fruit.
Ed
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Larry,
Why do you wish to debate something that has no ambiguity? Do you really think that Romans 13 is null and void in America? Come on, dude, really?
I’m not buying what you are selling. Justice is taught in the Bible. The law of the land is what the authority with a sword defends. You cannot go against the law of the land. The law of this land provides for protest. But that is NO EXCUSE to break the law, and to ignore Romans 13. Obey your magistrates.
You had said:
“and tell the cops that we think they are overbearing bullies.”
Titus 3:1-2
Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.
It’s NOT YOUR JOB to tell cops that you think they are overbearing bullies. It’s your job to report the incident to authorities so that a judge can make that determination. You are not being godly by telling the cops what you think. They have the authority to tell you to walk on the sidewalk and to get out of the street. You have no authority to tell them to pack sand. We are to respect authority. Not bad mouth them. SPEAK EVIL OF NO MAN, to be no brawlers.
Ed
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Ok, Ed, I see you’re chomping at the bit, please stick with the behaviors that we’ve seen in response to Ferguson, not the Ferguson issue. 🙂
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RE: chapmaned24 on Romans 13,
I for one am extremely glad that the Founders of our great Nation didn’t take the Apostle Paul all that seriously when they rebelled against King George and the British Mercantile system.
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Ed,
I see you didn’t like my comment very well… That is sometimes the way it is. From your replies, you and I would have a lot to discuss but doing it over a friendly beer or two would likely be healthier.
I mentioned several times, “the circles I am most comfortable in”. I don’t know if you picked up on that or not. Where I feel most comfortable, the people think a bit differently than you do.
Regarding your allusion to the 6th commandment, yes, the commandment says don’t murder. We do, however, tend to forget that Jesus equated hate with murder. Here is a question, however. As someone who tries to follow Jesus, one of the things I try to do is tell others about him so that they can gain eternal life. If, however, I feel justified to kill (not murder) to protect myself, that would protect me who has eternal life and deprive someone who probably does not have it of their opportunity to gain it.
Regarding the Huffington Post article. I, too, think you are painting with a rather broad brush. Yes, I’ve seen what could be construed as anti-Christian articles but I’ve also seen articles that are amazingly sympathetic toward Christian concerns.
Regarding your discussion in that comment about sin. In the case of the adulterous woman, Jesus did say “Go and sin no more”. Ignoring the discussion on whether that section is actually in the original manuscripts, the article is a parable — it breaks down when you take things far enough. If you need to dismiss the article because of that, I would suggest it’s your loss.
Finally, regarding your discussion on “you foolish Galatians”… All I can really say is REALLY? Maybe you should go back to that and see what Paul was really dealing with there.
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Muff Potter,
Oh, but they did take the Apostle Paul seriously. One situation has nothing to do with another. Romans 13 is “individual” behavior toward authority. The situation that you mention deals with national matters of a different nature, to wit, freedom of religion, to worship God based on our consciences, hence, the Declaration of Independence. Our founding fathers did indeed expect people to obey authority, which is why we have a judicial system. I’m surprised that I am hearing such nonsense.
Ed
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Miss Daisy,
Close… I am not promoting passive views. The word would be pacifist. I am not promoting them as much as I am telling you the sort of beliefs I hold to.
Just a note, on a pacifist view. It doesn’t mean I am passive, I does mean, however, that I don’t believe that my life is more valuable than someone trying to take mine. How that works out in practice? I’ve never had to face that situation.
You are absolutely right. Jesus did not come to earth to be a divine doormat. He challenged those that were abusers of justice and of others, he comforted those that were the victims of that injustice. His way was LOVE.
So, here is how this is working out in the life I am living on this board. I’ve been challenged by both you and Ed. Were I passive, I would let it lie. While I am defending myself, I don’t intend to “go for the kill” to eliminate the challenge. It also does not mean that I am going to conform for change my beliefs to better align with those that are challenging me.
I’m sorry you feel that pacifist’s don’t fight back. I don’t think you have a very healthy picture of that conviction. Because they feel called to act differently than the world around them they tend not to react the same way. Should an abuser be confronted? Absolutely. Should protective action be taken? If not, I wouldn’t feel comfortable. Because I’ve followed Julie Anne’s situation for some time, I see nothing she has done is against my convictions.
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Joel Frederick,
I’d love to discuss Bible over a beer, or two. But, since all I have is vodka and Kaluah and 1/2 & 1/2 at the moment…well…I would definately feel UNCOMFORTABLE in your circles, as I would mention bible passages that they would completely ignore. If we know that Jesus is the WORD of God, we also know that scripture is the WORD of God, hence, the whole Bible is the Word of Jesus. In other words, Jesus is the God of the Old Test. And everything that I would quote outside of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John is the words of Jesus just as the words of Jesus in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
Anyway, you had said:
” If, however, I feel justified to kill (not murder) to protect myself, that would protect me who has eternal life and deprive someone who probably does not have it of their opportunity to gain it.”
Deprive someone who probably does not have it or their opportunity to gain it? Let me ask you this, then. Was tiny little ole David, before he was King, worried about that when he confronted that big nasty bully giant Goliath? Did David say, “Hey, Goliath, lets talk about your salvation before I put this stone directly between your eyes”?
Lets read Romans 2:14-16 about people who never had an opportunity to hear the gospel:
Romans 2:14-16New International Version (NIV)
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
********************************************
Next:
Huffington Post is anti Christian. Point Blank. So, next time you read an article sympathetic to Christians, it’s probably to those professing Christians on the left that think that gay marriage is OK by declaring some crazy mantra that Jesus never said anything about homosexuality. So, of course, in cases such as that, the Huffington Post would defend THOSE professing Christian beliefs, of course.
Next:
You said:
” Ignoring the discussion on whether that section is actually in the original manuscripts, the article is a parable — it breaks down when you take things far enough. If you need to dismiss the article because of that, I would suggest it’s your loss.”
Uh, no it isn’t a parable. Telling someone not to sin is not a parable. And attempting to defend your position on the basis of a manuscript? I do not take your position seriously. Yours is the first that I have ever heard about parables and manuscripts in the case of the woman caught in adultery. The Pharisees were using her to try to trip Jesus up. That is in no way a parable.
And finally, I know what Paul was dealing with there in Galatians. Jewish people were telling them to obey the law, and Paul was telling them foolish Galatians that he told them no such thing.
Ed
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Julie Anne,
The behavioral aftermath, I already discussed. Sinning in the open, without a conscience. Looting (stealing), burning other people’s establishments, etc. There is NO FEAR of God in these people. They think that it is OK. They knowingly lie about what I am not allowed to talk about, without an inkling of a conscience that lying is a sin. No fear of God. No respect for authority, let alone people in general. And why?
Ed
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Ed….
The John passage is not the parable, the Huff Post article is…
You brought up the whole “fool” thing… My belief on the Galatians passage is Paul didn’t call them FOOLS, he just said they were being foolish. There is a difference.
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Ed, if I responded to you, then I’d have to have Kathi or Cindy put me in the dog house. Quit trying to put me there. 🙂
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Regarding the Ferguson discussion and resulting twitter war…
I would guess I sympathize more with Anyabwile. Saying that, I’m pretty non-colored so the only time I’ve faced anything close to what those protesting in Ferguson have been through is… well, never.
I do think Miano comes on a little strong. That said, I think he was drawing on the temptation passage to point to scripture twisting… The only problem with that is I’ve seen way to many people who believe they are right use that defense to silence the opposition, something I would argue, is only justified if you are dealing with Satan.
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Julie Anne,
Uh, oh. Well, is the dog house indoors or outdoors? At least you were gracious enough to throw me a bone for a bit. LOL!!
Ed
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Joel,
OK, I get it, the Huff Post is the parable, but the moral of the story (parable) is flawed, big time.
Second,
Fools are foolish. The word fool is in many places in the Bible. Proverbs, Psalms, is an abundance of the word.
You might want to try to use a concordance if you wish to debate me.
Ed
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Joel said:
Bingo! The guy debating Miano was not Satan. Miano was behaving the way we always see him behave – if you don’t believe the way he believes, you are the enemy. That is why he and CON are such BFFs – they act the same way. Oh, Ed, CON has a new article out on Ferguson.
https://twitter.com/TonyMiano/status/538775604133658625
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Ed said… “You might want to try to use a concordance if you wish to debate me.”
This went from discussion to attack… you and I will have no more communication.
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Jule Anne,
As much as I despise the doctrines of CON, I read his article, and I must say, he is stating exactly what I have been stating here. I am not a fan of CON, as you well know, but I see no flaws in his article.
His article is not based on Reform Doctrine, it’s just common sense…for once.
Fear of God. Does Ferguson have it?
When Abraham was questioned as to why he brought anguish to Egypt by telling the Pharaoh that Sarah was his sister instead of his wife, Abraham responded with, BECAUSE I didn’t think that there was the fear of God in this place.
By the way, Sarah was Abraham’s 1/2 sister, so he wasn’t lying, as many will accuse him of lying.
People do tend to live righteously if they have the fear of God.
Ed
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Joel,
I had said that due to your lack of knowledge over the word fool. It’s your choice to end the conversation, or to my advice.
Ed
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Julie Anne, I am still not convinced that Tony called that person Satan, nor am I convinced that Tony called that person evil. I am perplexed as to how you came to that conclusion.
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Ed,
Your choice of words to Joel wasn’t kind – it felt like a one-upmanship, ie, if you studied concordance then you would be on even keel with me. That’s my $.02.
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“Julie Anne, I am still not convinced that Tony called that person Satan, nor am I convinced that Tony called that person evil. I am perplexed as to how you came to that conclusion.”
Ed – No one has the right to behave like a bully. Could it be that you are so invested in this Ferguson issue that you are siding with these men whom you normally disagree with to prove a point? Seriously, Ed, the behavior is like a bully. You don’t say, “lest you be like Satan” to a Believer who is respectfully debating. That is rude.
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Julie Anne,
Joel had said:
” My belief on the Galatians passage is Paul didn’t call them FOOLS, he just said they were being foolish. There is a difference.”
So, my question is this: What is he basing his belief of “difference” on?
Words have meaning, and we get that meaning from a concordance, not just a fly by night belief based on opinion. I am all about word study. Where did he base his statement from?
Ed
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Ed:
If you asked Joel just like you said above: “Where did he base his statement from?”
instead of this:
“You might want to try to use a concordance if you wish to debate me.”
I think it would have gone over better. One is asking nicely, the other feels condescending and is personal.
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Well, one thing is for sure. I think CON would take you out for coffee now. 🙂
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Reviewing Miano’s words: “Twist not scripture lest you be like Satan, young man. Good night.”
I’m only seeing this bit of conversation between cvofromthemo and Miano, so I can’t comment on anything else that was said on the Twitter exchange. cvofromthemo offers some verses, and Miano addresses that by telling him that he is twisting scripture, just like Satan does. The way I see it, Miano is bringing an end to the conversation and making sure he gets the last word in.
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Julie Anne,
Well, the first thing that I would do is to ask Tony what he meant by that statement. But since I read both sides, I know what he meant without asking. Twisting scripture was really the whole enchilada of the topic. That is what Satan did. Jesus scripture whipped him back. The statement, “Don’t be like Satan” is nothing more than saying “Don’t Twist Scripture”. Nothing more.
But in regards to the Ferguson issue, it is easy to discern what took place, without being a witness on the scene. We all saw the video of the robbery. We did witness that via video. I have much to say about the subject. And I do indeed think that Christians should engage. It’s a tragedy that Christians are laying low, trying not to offend people. Being sympathetic is one thing, but being dishonest is another.
Just my 2 cents.
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Julie Anne,
I had no idea that Joel would be that sensitive to my sarcastic personality. I meant no harm to ya Joel. That’s just the way that I speak. I’m baaaaaack!! LOL.
Ed
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Ed said: ‘“Don’t be like Satan” is nothing more than saying “Don’t Twist Scripture”. Nothing more.’
JA doesn’t agree. Not sure why you are minimizing that very clear statement.
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Ed – I can understand what you’re saying comparing the two. Knowing how Miano talks and generally interacts with folks, though, I guess I don’t see it that way. If this had been said to me I would think that he was comparing me to Satan.
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Julie Anne and Kathi,
I am not minimizing that clear statement, because I know what that clear statement is. Both people were in a debate. This was a debate that has one on the left, and one on the right (politically). The one on the left does not believe in anything other than those which reference the poor, needy, etc. The one on the right states, “Not so fast…there are things that are being left out by you, and they are…Romans 13.
OK, so I reworded it a bit. But if you see, if I were to say to you, “Don’t be like Satan”, that is ONLY saying, I’m gonna scripture whip you.
One side quoted scripture PERFECTLY. That is being like Satan, because Satan left out THE REST OF THE STORY.
Don’t leave out the rest of the story is equated to Don’t be like Satan.
The topic is not Satan at all. The Topic is not evil at all. The topic is if you are going to quote scripture, you had better tell the whole story.
That’s it.
Ed
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