Recent Twittering on Joining or Submitting to Churches

Agree?  Disagree?  Whatcha think?

Late addition.  I should have looked further

114 comments on “Recent Twittering on Joining or Submitting to Churches

  1. Oddly enough, it strikes me that either to “join” or “submit to” a church has the same connotation of church-as-organization. Where’s the organic, the relational, the congregational in all this? And a “church” is not “over me,” Christ is, and the members of a local body of disciples submits to one another, including “leaders” (however you choose to call them) who are qualified by character and not by some staff or organizational position. Sorry, Mr. Kirkland. Catchy phrase with meaning for a mechanistic-position oriented church, but ultimately, quite meaningless to the organic-relational oriented church.

    Liked by 4 people

  2. I don’t exactly know what he means by that, so I would like some clarification- but at the face of it, No, I don’t agree and have never really heard that term used to describe Church. Hmm

    Like

  3. “We teach that these leaders lead or rule as servants of Christ (1 Timothy 5:17-22) and have His authority in directing the church. The congregation is to submit to their leadership (Hebrews 13:7, 17).”
    Christ Fellowship Bible Church (Kirkland;s church) under the what we teach section.

    I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that means that his “church” isn’t going to submit to me.

    Like

  4. “…including “leaders” (however you choose to call them) who are qualified by character and not by some staff or organizational position.”

    Or by family.

    Elders: Geoffrey Kirkland, Randy Kirkland (his dad) and one other elder.

    Like

  5. One of the hundreds of reasons why I am out of The System. There’s a good chance this man is speaking from a Reformed Theology & tradition perspective. They focus on the laity “submitting to Church” a great deal. It’s really really important to them. Church, as a System (and the clergy hierarchy by proxy), is equated with God. To go against Church is to go against God and to not submit to Church is to not submit to God. This view comes directly from the Roman Catholic Church tradition of hierarchies and clergy over the laity. Btw ‘clergy’ and ‘laity’ are man-made constructs. The Reformed Churches and Protestantism in general, may have changed “some” theology but they kept pretty much all the praxis traditions of Mother Church. We are to submit to one another in love, ultimately we submit to Christ, not to a substitute for Him (ie the organizational/ Institutional Church System).

    Liked by 2 people

  6. “This tweet was retweeted and favorited by Tony Miano, so evidently he endorses the message.”

    Kirkland’s is a Grace Advance church plant.

    Like

  7. He uses 1 Peter 5 “shepherd the flock among you as proof that churches need to have formal membership.

    “How do you know who the flock is unless those who have formally joined themselves to the local flock?”

    What an odd question. Um, you look. You interact. You don’t need a sign on a dotted line. That is extra-biblical. That’s man made.

    Signing that dotted line gives permission for church leaders to “come and invade my life, call me out, rebuke me, hold me accountable.”

    “It allows the leadership to know who the flock is so they can adequately and appropriately shepherd the flock.”

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Click on the rotating banner on his church website when it gets to connect grow serve membership and that will take you to a paper by Matt Chandler (Acts 29) on membership, a paper by Jonathan Leeman (Nonemarks) on membership and CFBC’s membership covenant. I would never sign that.

    Like

  9. His comments are just like the old article Doug Phillips wrote about joining a Church being in a “mini- covenant” with Church.. a dual covenant we must have with Christ AND with the Institutional Church. Phillips had said in his article that we express our covenant with Christ by making a covenant with the (organized, institutional) Church. This teaching makes “Church” out to be Christ. We don’t have dual spiritual covenants, one with Christ and one with Church. That would indeed be idolatry and spiritual harlotry. To give your “heart” (covenant, allegiance, loyalty, love, desire, commitment) to Christ, AND- something else too…Did this man mention if the membership contract in his Church requires tithing from members? All that stuff he said the Church Leadership is committed to to for the flock.. “love, guide, shepherd, guard, feed and care for the sheep”, that did not happen for me and for my friends! But the opposite. Man this video is triggering.. I am thankful to be out.. Jesus is not an overlord but a truly kind, loving and nurturing Shepherd that I can trust. : )

    Like

  10. “4. THE PEOPLE OF THE LORD
    To ascend to a pulpit, open the Bible, and say ‘Thus says the LORD’ should be the most sober, serious, and solemn moments of the week. The preacher speaking for God is speaking to God’s people. How remarkable is the thought that God entrusts His blood-bought prized possessions to his undershepherds. God’s man who teaches the Word must feed God’s sheep with good, healthy, solid, mature food. God’s man must care for God’s sheep that are wounded, hurting, dying, and straying. What an honor and privilege to tend to and love the people Christ purchased.”
    http://vassaloftheking.blogspot.com/2014/07/the-awefulness-and-awesomeness-of.html

    He has CJ Mahaney on his sidebar as a blog he follows. That was Mahaney’s line too…how hearing the weekly sermon from “God’s man” as Kirkland puts it at church was THE most important thing one could do all week.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. “God’s man who teaches the Word must feed God’s sheep with good, healthy, solid, mature food. God’s man must care for God’s sheep”

    All of God’s sheep are God’s men and women. Wow, their love for hierarchy and special status as if they are the only ones who can hear from God and be taught by Him.

    Like

  12. Reminds me of the last day I listened to Christian radio: The local (Protestant Evangelical) pastor on his teaching radio show declaired, “The pastor is the mediator between the people and God!” After I was done yelling and preaching to the radio, i clicked OFF for good.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. I was thinking about church membership the other day and ran across this article, thought it may be beneficial –

    To What Should We Be Loyal by William MacDonald

    What do you think of the person who says, “My parents were members of this denomination. I was born in it. And I’ll die in it.”

    “Oh,” you say, “I think he’s wrong to talk like that:” “Yes, but why is he wrong?”

    “I suppose because he assumes his denomination is right and will always be right.”

    “Well, then, to what denomination or group should he be loyal?”

    “I guess he shouldn’t be loyal to any denomination, because no denomination is perfect.”

    “One final question. If he shouldn’t be loyal to any denomination or group of Christians, to what should he be loyal?”

    “He ought to be loyal to the Lord and to the principles of His Word.”

    Yes, of course! That is the only correct answer. It is a mistake to develop an undying loyalty to any Christian fellowship, no matter how scriptural it may be at the time.

    Even suppose that you reject the whole idea of denominations. Suppose you meet with Christians who refuse any sectarian name. Suppose, for instance, that they speak of themselves by the innocuous name of “the assemblies.” They seek to adhere to the teaching of the Word. Shouldn’t you throw in your lot with them
    permanently and be loyal to them alone?

    If you do, you will find yourself in a difficult position.

    The Rest Can Read here -http://img.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/article_pdf.php?aid=15912

    Like

  14. Kirkland needs to redo his video Diane shared at 11:20 AM.

    At the end he asks people to “prayerfully consider joining yourself to CFBC”. Shouldn’t that be “prayerfully consider submitting yourself to CFBC”?

    Grace Advance http://www.graceadvance.org/Churches/List

    And look who is an “off-site elder” at least in July of 2014 at Kirkland’s church.

    From their website sermon archive description:

    “In this special Family Bible Hour time, Lance Quinn, CFBC’s off-site elder, answers many of the Questions of the CFBC flock — everything from some of the distinctive marks of a healthy church, how to pick healthy church, what is the greatest problem in evangelicalism today, Lance’s top 5 books, to dealing with ‘worldliness’ in the church. Listen to this very helpful and insightful Q&A time.”

    Off-site Elder and Elder-At-Large, a bit of a strange concept given the extra biblical job description they have created for an elder. Other off-site, at-large elders at other Grace Advance churches include Phil Johnson and Bill Shannon. Do you think for one second that a sheeple can interact with a at-large elder Phil Johnson from a distance?

    Like

  15. “We don’t “join” a church, we submit to a church.”

    I actually agree with this statement. To join, really, is to submit. Which is why I recommend against joining.

    Liked by 2 people

  16. Just another student of John MacArthur’s MS…..a false teacher of Reformed Theology who actually says his passion is to shepherd his wife on the church website. Read for yourselves why they believe in church membership.

    Like

  17. On the articles page from the cfbc Church/ blog website, the topic categories with the most articles are: CFBC, the Church, Pastor-Shepherd, and Leadership. Analysis: self-focused and Church-centric.

    Like

  18. What do we mean by submitting to a church? If I’m going to attend, of course I ought to submit to them in various non-essentials, as we all ought to do. But being a disciple of Jesus means following him, and finding out what he think and agreeing with him on that, not deferring to religious authorities – self-appointed at that – in whatever Jesus might have something to say, which is pretty much everything.

    Like

  19. Isn’t the Arabic word for “Submit” ISLAM?

    When all you can think of is “Submit”, there has to be a Dom for the Sub. (Guess Who?) A chain of boots stamping on submissive faces all the way down. Such is the way of POWER.

    Liked by 2 people

  20. ARGH!!!

    And people wonder why I won’t ever join/submit to a church again — because I understand what it really means to join/submit. I understand what happens to men who take a posture of being over people as well.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. @Loretta:

    “God’s man who teaches the Word must feed God’s sheep with good, healthy, solid, mature food. God’s man must care for God’s sheep”

    All of God’s sheep are God’s men and women. Wow, their love for hierarchy and special status as if they are the only ones who can hear from God and be taught by Him.

    Tell me again how these guys denounce Catholic hierarchy as “Priestcraft and Popery”?

    Liked by 1 person

  22. @Loretta:

    Reminds me of the last day I listened to Christian radio: The local (Protestant Evangelical) pastor on his teaching radio show declaired, “The pastor is the mediator between the people and God!”

    Didn’t Reichsminister Goebbels say exactly the same thing about the Fuehrer?
    (I think it’s on one of the Frank Capra “Why We Fight” series.)

    Like

  23. Julie Anne said: Well, I can, but I had to get sued in order to do so.

    That speaks volumes!

    I have a folder of audio clips and this topic reminded me of a clip either someone sent or I found a few years ago. (I neglected to name the file so I wouldn’t forget the source.) I do remember this preacher was a TMS guy and I was told he was one of Grace’s golden boys.

    In his message on church membership he says:

    “if you are unable or unwilling to submit to the elders, over this issue (membership), you need to leave this church.”

    He argues that if you are not a member, how are the elders to know “for whom they are to give an account”.

    Another memory in my folder … Julie Anne, do you remember Ken Unruh (stay-at-home daughter guy who wrote on your blog ” I have a suggestion for you. Stop writing…Grow in your faith before sharing your ignorance”? He was a TMS guy too.

    Like

  24. We submit conditionally one to another, we obey and submit ultimately to Jesus, we do not submit in the spiritual sense to any human-made institution, because if we do so, eventually we’ll be called upon to do something contrary to what Jesus wants.

    Liked by 2 people

  25. Loretta, you observe, “their identity seems to be “The Church”” Yes, for way too many “the Church” is their source of narcissistic supplies. To question them is to inflict a narcissistic injury; following which all one can do is stand back and be amazed at the resulting narcissistic rage. Sometimes they will even sue you for half a million dollars.

    Don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying this applies to all church or even “church,” leaders. I’m suspecting it does apply to a “church” leader who would say something like “We don’t “join” a church, we submit to a church.”

    Liked by 1 person

  26. Kay – I remember Ken’s name, completely forgot about his comment. I have come to expect it from anyone connected with GCC.

    By the way, Phil Johnson was recently interviewed by Tony Miano and someone informed me of this quote by Phil Johnson, so I decided to tweet it (and tag PJ). He the one who favorited it – lol. I had to let him know that I heard it 😉

    Like

  27. And to Phil’s comment above – – yes, I will blog endlessly about bully leaders who are not held accountable by a system of hierarchy that they strongly endorse, but fails to work. Especially it’s a public leader who is abusing or allowing abuse, I will speak out. Deal with it, baby.

    Liked by 3 people

  28. Julie Anne – that’s funny. When Phil gave up blogging for his Pyro site, it sounded like he was going to exit social media, but looks like he is as active as ever.

    you said, “bully leaders who are not held accountable by a system of hierarchy that they strongly endorse, but fails to work”

    nailed it!

    Like

  29. Oh my, please, folks, click on this link and take a gander at Mr. Kirkland’s Twitter feed. He’s a pastor, right?

    It’s funny that I just tweeted him about providing chapter and verse, because when I look through his Twitter feed, I don’t know that I would be able to figure out if he even reads the Bible. He reads dead men and quotes dead men. I thought a pastor’s job was to guide/point people to Jesus? Why are we putting dead people between people and their Savior? What is this nonsense?

    https://twitter.com/GeoffKirkland/with_replies

    Liked by 2 people

  30. while i have never been an official church member of any Church, I expect that I will one day and have to submit to the elders, which I believe is what I ought to do. How that submission of course looks like will have to be examined further, but its not something that I am dreading or wanting to put off.

    Like

  31. Just read Matthew 20:24-28; and Matthew 23:1-12. The answer is NO! And I’v never been asked to. In fact, when we were down to deciding which church to attend after we moved here, my hubby would *not* join a church that *required* an accountability partner besides his wife…

    Besides, all the other verses say submit to one another. If I have to submit to the church, then it must submit to me!

    Like

  32. Dustin, Unless you are being called on the carpet for some heinous sin, why would you be submitting to the elders? The elders purpose IMO is to help with the spiritual development of the church body. They are there to look for the needs of the members. They are to serve the people. It doesn’t mean they are the end authority of the church. Jesus is still the head of the church, not the elders.

    Like

  33. Julie Anne – I bet the phones are ringing off the hook to St. Louis to warn Kirkland. They will probably have to call an emergency Grace Advance meeting to gossip about you.

    Like

  34. Thomas Watson (c. 1620 – 1686) was an English, Nonconformist, Puritan preacher and author and I don’t know the context of this quote, however

    why does a Christian pastor, in this day and age tweet this quote?

    Geoffrey Kirkland ن @GeoffKirkland · Aug 12
    “Too much leniency emboldens sin and merely shaves the head that deserves to be cut off” (Thomas Watson).

    Like

  35. “Too much leniency emboldens sin and merely shaves the head that deserves to be cut off” (Thomas Watson).

    Kay, Can’t you just feel the love in that statement?? I wonder how many they had in the stocks while that was being spoken.

    Like

  36. The pulpiteers I know of and their idols would have strong words regarding your lack of oversight. If you are not an elder and you are not submitting to elders, and if your fellow pulpiteers know of this and yet read your writing and listen to you, you must have your own special position in the authority chain.

    “The Pulpiteers are a unique group of rabble rousers that use their social media to get out the Truth about evangelicalism’s need for Reformation. They are a Gospel-centered army, using their social media to advance the cause. They follow the Pulpit & Pen blog, subscribe to the podcast, and receive email alerts about how they can be activated at a moment’s notice to spread time-sensitive information in their spheres of influence.”

    Maybe you are a general who activates the pulpiteer army (some who are elders). If so, I guess you have authority over them.

    Liked by 1 person

  37. “The pulpiteers I know of and their idols would have strong words regarding your lack of oversight. If you are not an elder and you are not submitting to elders, and if your fellow pulpiteers know of this and yet read your writing and listen to you, you must have your own special position in the authority chain.

    “The Pulpiteers are a unique group of rabble rousers that use their social media to get out the Truth about evangelicalism’s need for Reformation. They are a Gospel-centered army, using their social media to advance the cause. They follow the Pulpit & Pen blog, subscribe to the podcast, and receive email alerts about how they can be activated at a moment’s notice to spread time-sensitive information in their spheres of influence.”

    Maybe you are a general who activates the pulpiteer army (some who are elders). If so, I guess you have authority over them”

    I’m not sure who you are referring to, or what idols you have in mind. I should probably hasten to add that part of the reason I have no elders is that I recently moved across the country, and have not yet found a Church. Well- i found one that I have been attending for the last few months on and off, as work allows, but have been coming to realize that they are not “reformed” enough for me to ever want to grow with them and become a deacon or an elder in that Church.

    For this reason I’m trying some place else out whose ministry resources list Grace To You, Ligonere Ministries, Heart Cry Ministries, and Desiring God [latter a bit of a mixed bag]

    I would add that while I think we ought to submit to elders [however that looks like, as per Hebrews 13:17 and 1 Peter 5:5] and I think its good to become a Church member, that I would not judge or look down upon those who did not want to, or who were too hurt or burned by past teachers/elders to commit to that again. I think it’s a system that makes sense and is a good way to build a healthy community, if done correctly, but I would not go so far to say that people MUST become Church members, and that it is a sin not too. That goes too far, in my opinion.

    Like

  38. JA, I always learn something new here! I have never heard of Grace Advance so I took a look at their website. Power and control! What struck me was their desire to “protect” churches from the surrounding culture. They also talk about “the great history of redemption that remained untarnished in the New Testament days” and then “after the Reformation.” I guess the people who lived in between these time periods are screwed. They want to protect the churches from “historical isolationism”. How does ignoring the needs of society and culture promote Jesus? This group confuses me. Of course that is to be expected since I have a vagina!

    Like

  39. Yah, the more I read and reread that guys tweet, the more it bothers me- primarily because I have never heard that terminology used before. have you, Julie? its like someone saying “we don’t participate in worship, we submit to worship” it’s just bizaaaaaaaarre.

    Like

  40. Yes, exactly, Dustin. I have heard of the terminology and actually, most prominently, from groups like acts 29, 9marks, etc. I think if you stick around you will see the patterns and that kind of style will just pop out at you.

    Liked by 1 person

  41. “I expect that I will one day and have to submit to the elders, which I believe is what I ought to do. How that submission of course looks like will have to be examined further, but its not something that I am dreading or wanting to put off.”

    Elders are the ones who are fed to the lions first so the others can get away. They submit to you. If you understand submission as it is used in the NT. It is not the Islamic understanding.

    Like

  42. I believes that in a way elders serve and submit to the flock, sure. I also believe in a way that the flock submits to and serves the elders. it is a copacetic and mutually edifying relationship.

    Liked by 1 person

  43. paperthinhymn:

    You said:”I also believe in a way that the flock submits to and serves the elders. it is a copacetic and mutually edifying relationship.”

    What way is this? What Bible verses are there that tell church members to submit to and serve a man?

    Like

  44. An elder would be someone “wise” in the faith. usually from experience in the trenches. They would NEVER lord it over or even tell you to submit. That is not how it works. Here is a clue: Almost all the Epistles are written to the entire Body. Not to specific elders to carry out.

    Anyone who actually teaches submission to elders is giving off a glaring red flag. Run! Especially has it has become a yes man club in most of evangelicalism today.

    You would naturally gravitate to someone wise in the faith. Might be old Mrs Weems.

    Liked by 1 person

  45. Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. Hebrews 13:17

    would be one of them. You may have a different way of interpreting it or making application than I do, but it is there, for better or for worse

    Like

  46. Dustin, Did I give you links to articles on Hebrews 13:17? I’ve got some. Have you done a thorough study of what “rule over” means in the original language? I strongly encourage you to tear that verse apart for yourself. That particular verse I find is one of the most common verses used by spiritual tyrants to control their congregants.

    It was used by the elder over and over again to me when I “questioned authority.”

    Like

  47. You have not. I would be interested in seeing them. I would also link this up with 1 Corinthians 16:15-16, which states that the reason for the submission, or being subject to, has to do with the fact that he was devoted to serving the saints. Like you I have known men who have used this verse to bruise and batter souls, and other men who have used it to serve and care for their flock. Like most verses it can be wielded like a tyrant, or exercised like a servant.

    Like

  48. “would be one of them. You may have a different way of interpreting it or making application than I do, but it is there, for better or for worse”

    For worse. Horrible translation from state church mentality. No one wanted to offend the king, the defender of the faith and boss of the church. We could go into it word by word and look at the word choices that are different than other word choices for same word in other passages. Interesting study. We could start with “obey”. Strange word choice for adults who are believers with the indwelling Holy Spirit and have NO mediator between them and Christ. Seems the Hebrews author does not want folks to mature but to obey mere man. Seems wrong.

    Here is another view concerning the word Obey in that passage:

    According to W.E. Vine, the Greek word peitho means “to persuade, to win over, in the Passive and Middle Voices, to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey, is so used with this meaning, in the Middle Voice. THE OBEDIENCE SUGGESTED IS NOT BY SUBMISSION TO AUTHORITY, BUT RESULTING FROM PERSUASION” (emp. mine. An Expository Dic-tionary of New Testament Words, Vol. 3, p. 124).

    The thrust of the word peitho is not one of submission to authority; it is one of listening to someone out of respect and taking their advice. A better translation of peitho in verse 17 is “Listen to,” not “Obey them.”

    Peitho is sometimes translated “trust” in the King James Version of the New Testament and would have been an ideal translation in verse 17: ‘Trust them….’ This leaves the reader with a different flavor entirely than does the translation “Obey them. Trust is earned. Obedience demanded.

    How would we square it with other passages communicating exactly the opposite. Beware of proof texts. Besides, all true believers have “anointing” (1 John). Not just special ones for the rest of us.

    Liked by 2 people

  49. Dustin – I’m going to send you something from Pastor Wade Burleson, a Reformed pastor who has studied extensively on spiritual authority. He and his father wrote it. I have to find it, so give me a few and then check your e-mail.

    Like

  50. “15 You know that the household of Stephanas were the first converts in Achaia, and they have devoted themselves to the service of the Lord’s people. I urge you, brothers and sisters, 16 to submit to such people and to everyone who joins in the work and labors at it. ”

    Very pluralistic. EVERYONE who joins in the work……maybe even Chloe. :o)

    Sort of like the verse in Eph that so many pastors ignore. the one about submitting to one another. Grudem says it does not apply to pastors/husbands. Hee Hee.

    Liked by 1 person

  51. ““would be one of them. You may have a different way of interpreting it or making application than I do, but it is there, for better or for worse”

    For worse. Horrible translation from state church mentality. No one wanted to offend the king, the defender of the faith and boss of the church. We could go into it word by word and look at the word choices that are different than other word choices for same word in other passages. Interesting study. We could start with “obey”. Strange word choice for adults who are believers with the indwelling Holy Spirit and have NO mediator between them and Christ. Seems the Hebrews author does not want folks to mature but to obey mere man. Seems wrong.”

    Here is another view concerning the word Obey in that passage:

    According to W.E. Vine, the Greek word peitho means “to persuade, to win over, in the Passive and Middle Voices, to be persuaded, to listen to, to obey, is so used with this meaning, in the Middle Voice. THE OBEDIENCE SUGGESTED IS NOT BY SUBMISSION TO AUTHORITY, BUT RESULTING FROM PERSUASION” (emp. mine. An Expository Dic-tionary of New Testament Words, Vol. 3, p. 124).

    The thrust of the word peitho is not one of submission to authority; it is one of listening to someone out of respect and taking their advice. A better translation of peitho in verse 17 is “Listen to,” not “Obey them.”

    Peitho is sometimes translated “trust” in the King James Version of the New Testament and would have been an ideal translation in verse 17: ‘Trust them….’ This leaves the reader with a different flavor entirely than does the translation “Obey them. Trust is earned. Obedience demanded.

    How would we square it with other passages communicating exactly the opposite. Beware of proof texts. Besides, all true believers have “anointing” (1 John). Not just special ones for the rest of us.

    Lydia, I’m not exactly sure of the nature of the charge you’re leveling. Are you saying that 95% of Bible translations have it wrong because they are part of the state Church? Even if I were to grant you that, the meaning of “Obey” what do you do with the next part, which was what i was focusing, on, the “submit to them”?

    Liked by 1 person

  52. since “The Church” is a human construct and I don’t submit to any other human beings, I do not submit to ‘the church’ either.

    Like

  53. OK, so I haven’t read the above comments yet, but church is not a building. Church is people. A gathering place is not church. We all submit to one another, but that word submit has nothing to do with the premise being tweeted. And, the word, church, is so misused. I wish people would stop using the word, church, as if it is a building with a chain of command. It isn’t. Every single person is the church. If there was only one Christian on the planet, that one person is the church, the whole church.

    Like

  54. @Kay, 4:01PM said: “The Pulpiteers are a unique group of rabble rousers that use their social media to get out the Truth about evangelicalism’s need for Reformation. They are a Gospel-centered army, using their social media to advance the cause. They follow the Pulpit & Pen blog, subscribe to the podcast, and receive email alerts about how they can be activated at a moment’s notice to spread time-sensitive information in their spheres of influence.”

    Ummm, have the Pulpiteers taken their inspiration from the Peoples Liberation Front or Anonymous? See http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/09/08/masked-avengers

    Similar zeal, similar loose networks, similar activation modus operandi, and yes, mistakes also happen…

    Liked by 1 person

  55. Q,

    I am one person, and I can assemble a desk all by myself, as long as I know what is meant by attaching part a to part d via part c.

    Just kidding, but yes, you are right. My point was that people is the church, and it is not a chain of command. We are kings of the King. Same rank. No one is above another. No one is below another. We are all fellow heirs. We are all priests. We are all saints. We are the church. But…we are all to submit to one another. But submit in the context of the tweet means something different. The tweet’s submit is in regards to bondage, not serving.

    ________________________________

    Like

  56. How interesting that Q reappears while we are discussing the abusive view that we are not to join, but to submit to, a so called church. Back on February 11, 2014 @ 12:37 PM (http://tinyurl.com/mgj3nwn) Q asked, “Isn’t submission an essence of Christianity?”

    Allow me to suggest that Q is for Quran, holy book of Islam, which means submission.

    Like

  57. No, but wait! In Q’s first comment on this thread he republishes somebody else’s warnings against denominational loyalty, which I suppose is sort of the same as a warning against submitting oneself to a so called church.

    It seems Q is only in favor of submission when the topic is the role of women in the church.

    Is there a synonym for misogynistic that starts with the letter Q?

    Like

  58. @singleman (not to be confused with Slenderman):

    In case you were unaware, Geoffrey Kirkland has a blog titled Vassal of the King.

    In Arabic, “Abdullah” (“Slave of Al’lah”).
    Sure this guy wouldn’t be happier in Islam (“Submission”)?

    Like

  59. Sure this guy wouldn’t be happier in Islam (“Submission”)?

    I wouldn’t be so sure of that. One of my Muslim co-workers told me yesterday that ISIS was giving his religion a bad name.

    Like

  60. Headless Unicorn Guy said: Sure this guy wouldn’t be happier in Islam (“Submission”)?

    He did tweet this quote recently:

    Geoffrey Kirkland ن @GeoffKirkland · Aug 12
    “Too much leniency emboldens sin and merely shaves the head that deserves to be cut off” (Thomas Watson).

    Like

  61. Purported tweet, phone fart, or whatever from upthread:

    Geoffrey Kirkland ن @GeoffKirkland · Aug 12
    “Too much leniency emboldens sin and merely shaves the head that deserves to be cut off” (Thomas Watson).

    And the guy also has a blog called Vassal of the King?
    These dudes really do long for the good old days and I for one am exceedingly glad that men Like Jefferson and Adams made damn sure that they will never get the power they so desperately crave so’s they can return us to the good old days.

    Like

  62. Muff Potter:

    As you correctly point out these guys are all about power. I just recently left the Southern Baptist Convention after 40 years as I saw it morph into something I do not want to be a part.

    Like

  63. Julie Anne – I had missed Kirkland’s name in one of your previous posts.

    https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/01/31/street-preacher-tony-mianos-humble-apology-sent-to-the-masses/comment-page-1/

    Kirkland was also a guest author twice on Cripplegate (Where Bill Shannon’s son-in-law Jesse Johnson blogs) http://thecripplegate.com/

    JANUARY 25, 2012
    The (Lost) Art of Street Preaching — Must It Be Resurrected?
    by Geoffrey Kirkland

    MARCH 9, 2012
    The Fear of Man & How to Destroy It
    by Geoffrey Kirkland

    Like

  64. “I wouldn’t be so sure of that. One of my Muslim co-workers told me yesterday that ISIS was giving his religion a bad name”

    Too bad it took ISIS to realize that. What about how women are viewed?

    Like

  65. “These dudes really do long for the good old days and I for one am exceedingly glad that men Like Jefferson and Adams made damn sure that they will never get the power they so desperately crave so’s they can return us to the good old days.”

    I agree except when we give government too much power to make too many decisions about over our personal lives……..we start giving up our individual freedoms/choices…and who knows then? HIstory is full of: That would never happen here.

    Like

  66. “Lydia, I’m not exactly sure of the nature of the charge you’re leveling. Are you saying that 95% of Bible translations have it wrong because they are part of the state Church? Even if I were to grant you that, the meaning of “Obey” what do you do with the next part, which was what i was focusing, on, the “submit to them”?”

    Again, I ask you what about all the other passages that negate this idea of authority/submission. We can start with the 58 “one anothers”. You only have one Father, All believers have anointing, Don’t lord it over, etc, etc.

    My point was that “obey” was a horrible word choice from the translators. So why did they choose it in connection with “leader” (note there there is no “elder” in that passage) So who would a “leader” be in the 1st Century context when we know Jesus disdained the “Gentile” structure of hierarchy. And that is the problem. We have incorporated the pagan model of the Greek chain of being into our churches.

    Submit is the same way. It is strictly voluntary and and does not denote an inferior position among believers. It is also not static. That is where it really becomes interesting as when people cannot leave their churches without elder approval.

    Like

  67. RE: Diane’s Kirkland video

    So, basically, church membership is beneficial because it serves as a sort of branding iron that allows church leadership to know you have given formal (legal? See Wartburg Watch on that) permission to them to whomp on you if (when) you screw up.

    Hmm….

    Like

  68. Barnabasintraining said: “So, basically, church membership is beneficial because it serves as a sort of branding iron that allows church leadership to know you have given formal (legal? See Wartburg Watch on that) permission to them to whomp on you if (when) you screw up.”

    Just posted this for someone over at TWW. It comes from the pastor section of 9Marks talking about when a pastor leaves a church. Sounds so odd. I know the Bible uses Shepherd, sheep and wolves, but when these people use the same terms in their pastoral instructions, it sounds like the sheep are a low social class in their kingdom.

    I’m curious, what does the transformation from lowly sheeple to Shepherd look like or were they always a Shepherd in the making even before they knew it? I think, for some of these guys, it’s just a piece of paper from a seminary and poof, you are a Shepherd.

    http://www.9marks.org/journal/prepare-church-next-guy
    6. Clean up your (and your predecessor’s) messes
    Here are a few crucial areas:
    a. Membership: Clean up the membership rolls such that the membership closely aligns with those who regularly attend. The membership rolls (should) represent sheep. Remove wolves as well as you can, and take non-attenders off. Help the new guy get off to a good start by knowing exactly which sheep he is called to shepherd.

    Like

  69. Gary W,

    Did you read the sermon text I gave an address to and if yes, what did you think.

    Also can you stop the name calling, my blog name Q is just a nickname I had as a kid and I am a Christian.

    If I stated something you disagree with why not state what it is rather than name calling.

    Not sure why the blog owner allows it on a blog about spiritual abuse???

    Liked by 1 person

  70. Maybe I am wrong on this one as I haven’t seen in Scriptures where I am to sign a “church document, or covenant” if you will, to become a “member” of an organized church. I also haven’t seen in the Scriptures where the ekklesia, or assembly/congregation formalized an “installation service” to welcome new members, newly elected leaders, or ceremonializing the hiring of a “new pastor,” calling attention to the accolades of man rather than Jesus Christ.

    Does God, our all knowing Father, require us to sign our name on a dotted line so He can keep track of us and how much we give to Him, or is He Mighty enough that He does not need the ways of man to help Him out a alittle bit here and there.

    What happens in churches when the leadership system, including the pastor, lord over those they deem as weaker, lesser, and “not as spiritual as themselves?” What happens in churches where you confide in some of the “leadership network”, only to discover they betrayed your confidence to “the rest of the board”, eventually making its way amongst the rest of the pew sitters and by the time it gets back to you, your original confidence is so distorted and a mockery of a personal truth? What happens when “leadership” gathers information about you only to be used against you when you “start questioning their authority and their so called Biblical teachings?”

    What happens in churches when the leadership/pastorate does NOT exhibit, nor have the character traits listed in the Bible as qualifications to serve in positions of authority? Anotherwords, their very own houses are not in order, yet they expect you to live by a higher standard than even they live. For example, (and this actually happened), the children and household of the pastor/leadership can live together, have extra-marital affairs, rape and pillage, faithfully watch pornography, engage in drunkenness, divorce multiple times, gossip, lie and slander, engage in the occult (drunk in a spirit, receiving channeled messages from voices, visiting the third heaven, etc.)….oh, the sins are legion….and yet, the rest of us are lorded over and held “accountable” to them in living far and above the standards they set for themselves.

    To the reader, you may think the church I attend came out of the “Jonestown” mold, but it is not….it is a Baptist church down the road with pentecostal/charismatic practices, who claims to know more truth than any other, who beat up the sheep with their branding irons of so called doctrines of demons rather than the ways of our LORD.

    And the so called “love” they show you is based solely on:

    1) Signed membership in their church
    2) The amount of submission you show the leadership
    3) The amount of hope, trust, and worship you show the pastor and his special family
    4) The amount of money you give….and they love it when someone “wills their belongings and estate to them!”
    5) The number of times you attend their place of meeting……the office of the “attendance registrar” checks that little box by your name each time you are there so as to keep track of your whereabouts.
    6) The amount of bragging, boasting, and flattery given to the leadership and pastor and the special treatment they receive as a result of their high positions of authority…..and if you do not flatter these people, it is a sign of disobedience to our LORD.
    7) The amount of confidential personal information you hand over to them so they can “advise” you on how to handle “life in general.” (And when you choose to be discerning of all matters involving doctrine and character of individuals, you are labeled unteachable, not submissive, rebellious, having a “Jezebel” spirit (yes, a pastor actually said this), and finally, disobedient to our LORD.
    8) When you become a follower of them, rather than a follower and servant of Jesus Christ.

    So when we stand before Jesus Christ on that great and glorious day of His Second Coming, is He going to walk over to His office files and check and see if we signed that church membership document just to make sure He knows that we are one of His sheep? Or does He already know, without the clicking of a pen, who are His ….those who worship Him in spirit and truth?

    Jesus knows.

    Liked by 1 person

  71. Katy2,
    I’m going to say there is nothing about what you have described going on in this facility has anything to do with worshiping God. God is not being invited into worship in this environment, it is the worship of men. Not one thing that you have listed here is scriptural. The only place that I need my name written is in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

    Liked by 1 person

  72. “RE: Diane’s Kirkland video

    So, basically, church membership is beneficial because it serves as a sort of branding iron that allows church leadership to know you have given formal (legal? See Wartburg Watch on that) permission to them to whomp on you if (when) you screw up.

    Hmm….”

    There are 3 elders listed at Kirkland’s organization. Geoff, his dad and one other. We are to believe they will hold each other accountable when they err. I don’t buy it-how does that work when it’s a family affair?

    Like

  73. Thank-you Julie Anne for allowing me to share here as I have experienced such hurt from these churched people and am in the processing of healing. Please forgive me if I sound bitter or antagonistic in any way, for this is not the purpose I intend. I would rather this be a warning to those involved in such a church system, for where the ways of legalism, favoritism, double mindedness and duality in living practices amongst the leadership occurs, there will be significant brainwashing and abuse.

    Praying for all those “abused” by these religious systems. In Jesus Name.

    Like

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s