A look at Christian response to suicide.
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Yesterday, I tweeted this after hearing of Robin Williams’ death by suicide:
https://twitter.com/JamesHartline/status/499020239427100673
I asked him if he considered depression to be sin?
His response:
https://twitter.com/JamesHartline/status/499028075225812992
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We had more exchanges, he refused to answer my question.
I also got a personal e-mail from someone who had recently gone through postpartum depression and loss. She, too, was seeing heartless comments about suicide and the sin of depression.
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And then this article from Matt Walsh came through my Facebook feed this morning: Robin Williams didn’t die from a disease, he died from his choice
Here’s an excerpt from Walsh’s article:
So I’m just like you, then, because I can’t stomach the thought of it. I’ve seen it in the neighborhoods where I’ve lived and the schools that I’ve attended. I’ve seen it in my family. I’ve known adults and kids who’ve done it. I’ve seen it on the news and read about it in books, but I can’t comprehend it. The complete, total, absolute rejection of life. The final refusal to see the worth in anything, or the beauty, or the reason, or the point, or the hope. The willingness to saddle your family with the pain and misery and anger that will now plague them for the rest of their lives.
It’s a tragic choice, truly, but it is a choice, and we have to remember that. Your suicide doesn’t happen to you; it doesn’t attack you like cancer or descend upon you like a tornado. It is a decision made by an individual. A bad decision. Always a bad decision.
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This is what I posted on my Facebook status today:
I’m reminded of the story of Lazarus’ death. Jesus could have raised him from the dead immediately. Instead he saw Mary and Martha and offered comfort to them. I want to have the tender heart of Jesus for hurting people.
I’m aware of 3 suicides in the past couple of weeks. A 15-yr old son of a well-known Christian leader, a mother of 2 in Oregon, and now Robin Williams. We don’t know what was so painful in their life that they chose to end their life prematurely, but there are people all around us who are in pain and could use someone to weep and mourn with them as Jesus modeled for us.
A lot of Christians blame mental health issues on sin. The people I know who have mental health issues have been harmed deeply by others through various kinds of abuse. Sometimes these folks need a little extra tender care and a listening ear. To blame suicide on “sin” is heartless and not very loving. We can do better.
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We can learn from Kay Warren, wife of popular pastor, Rick Warren, whose son, Matthew committed suicide has responded to these tragedies:
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Let us have the heart of Christ for those who suffer pain and loss. The world is watching us. The world needs a Christ-like response to pain, not judgment and condemnation.
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Spiritual Sounding Board 
I was waiting for Mr. Walsh to post about this…but I really didn’t think it would be within 24 hours of Robin’s death notice. On the one hand, I understand what he was *trying* to say, but the problem with his post is that it’s written from an outsider’s perspective. Maybe in some cases, suicide can be called selfish, which is what I believed for a long time when a friend of mine killed himself years ago. Only when I started struggling with depression myself did I realize how impossible it is to truly understand the mind of a person who thinks suicide is a viable option. I’ve thought about it before, and I don’t think that makes me selfish: it means my mind is sick. I’ll admit that.
The real focus right now should be on battling ignorance and leaving his family to grieve in peace.
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Also, this quote from JK Rowling:
“”It’s so difficult to describe depression to someone who’s never been there, because it’s not sadness. I know sadness. Sadness is to cry and to feel. But it’s that cold absence of feeling— that really hollowed-out feeling.”
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Suicide is just as tragic as any other means of death for the families that survive. Would Robin Williams wife be any less hurt if her husband had died of cancer? I don’t think so. Would the families of teens who commit suicide be any less grieved had they have died in a car accident? I don’t think so. There lives all were ended short and their families will feel that loss for some time to come.
Many abuse victims consider suicide. They think of any means that will make the pain go away. Mr. Williams had been hiding his pain, as many others have, through drug abuse and alcohol. I am not suggesting that Mr. Williams was an abuse victim but was in pain of some kind. If he was mentally ill, it wouldn’t make it any less sad.
The Lord gave us physicians for our physical bodies, we have dentists for our oral health care. Why is it Christians have so much trouble seeing that people may need a specialized physician for their mental health care?
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all I can say is that a bunch of sick @$$ holes call themselves christian. give me an empathetic pagan any day.
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Typically, those who have thankfully never been impacted closely by suicide are quick to judge more harshly in this way, and to call it “sin,” “unforgivable,” “murder,” etc. Only when you have walked through that confusion with a family member, in a fog because you’re trying everything and it’s not helping, and meds make it worse- it is a very helpless feeling for all involved, and when it ends in suicide it leaves you crumbled into a million pieces. BUT God is still there even in that total helplessness, healing your heart and teaching you to rest in Him. The word “suicide” itself is ugly and we shrink from it, as society should. But we are in a fallen world and mental illness and brain tumors etc exist. Those who cannot show grace to families affected by suicide are simply spiritual lightweights who haven’t yet totally learned of God’s grace.
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Beth Caplin said,
“I was waiting for Mr. Walsh to post about this…but I really didn’t think it would be within 24 hours of Robin’s death notice.”
It makes me wonder if guys like Walsh have pre-written essays throwing stones at the depressed with leaving a few fill in the blank areas to fill in after some famous person commits suicide.
Walsh needs to focus more on love and empathy at this time and less on using William’s suicide as an excuse to bash people with depression.
I hope Walsh gets a ton of push back on his blog and twitter about this. Or not – if what he is craving is attention and page hits.
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I saw some of those responses to JA’s tweet. I don’t know if those people consider themselves to be Christian or not. I was very bothered by the comments.
I also saw the news report that Fox News host, Shep Smith and actor, Todd Bridges issued apologies for making the same kind of comments. http://tinyurl.com/l5atsve
Both apologies seemed very sincere. Why do some people “get it” that you shouldn’t just spout such things out to the virtual universe, and others have no sense of decency about such matters?
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I think it is narrow-minded and heartless to judge another’s motives when they are living in on-again-off-again depression. Sometimes the darkness seems so overwhelming, it seems like surrender is the best solution – for everyone’s sake. I have never walked that thin line, but I can certainly appreciate its reality in someone else’s world. Grace and empathy is the appropriate response here; not judgment.
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I wrote about how insensitive some Christians can be about stuff like this in the last thread, _here_, about the suicide of Robin Williams and J D Hall / B. Caner.
About Walsh. It’s obvious to me that Walsh never himself had depression, to so blithely dismiss it as he does.
From the OP:
“And then this article from Matt Walsh came through my Facebook feed this morning: Robin Williams didn’t die from a disease, he died from his choice”
Er, I don’t think that Walsh understand that it’s not a true choice.
I used to have clinical depression and suicidal ideation (I was formally diagnosed by psychiatrists as a kid).
The anti-depressant pills I took and shrinks I saw did not help me. (Please note: I am not saying others should not see psychiatrists or go on medications, I am only noting neither one helped me personally).
Church attendance did not help make the pain go away, neither did prayer, Bible reading, thinking sunny thoughts, focusing on Jesus or the Gospel, trusting God for a healing, or volunteering at soup kitchens.
My depression and suicidal ideation got much stronger in the years after my mother died, too (this would be recent. Mom died a few years ago).
People who are in deep depression want the pain to stop, but they don’t know how to make it stop. It feels especially hopeless if one has already tried all the usual advice, or taken medications for it, and none of it works (or only works briefly and the pain comes back).
Ergo, you get to the point where suicide seems like your only choice, healing, cure, or hope. I don’t think insensitive blow-hards like Walsh comprehend that. It’s not that you really feel you have a choice when you get to that point.
One of the only reasons I am still here and did not commit suicide myself is because I am very, very stubborn. As wonderful a person Jesus is, Jesus, did not pull me through.
I am not knocking Jesus, but for whatever reason, if there is a God, it matters not how devout and faithful you are, God does not choose to supernaturally remove depression from many Christians who have it. So, you are left to your own devices to cope.
Christians I went to for help with my depression, especially after my Mom died, told me some of the same garbage Julie Anne says she’s been seeing on Twitter, or stuff like Matt Walsh is spewing.
Oh, by the way, years ago (this was when my Mom was still alive), when I was researching depression and Christian material on the internet (when I was still undergoing depression), I came across a site that made it sound like genuine Christians don’t ever get depression. It was an apologetics-type site.
I e-mailed the sites’ two web masters/owners, to get some clarification of their views, and they shot back, “Yes that is how we believe. We believe that a “real” blood bought Christian will NEVER have depression. So if you have it, you are not a true Christian.”
There are really and truly “Christians” who are that ignorant and insensitive about depression or mental illness in general.
Reading the Bible didn’t pull me through and yes, I tried reading it.
BTW, people with deep depression have a difficulty reading text. That is why I roll my eyes when I see preachers and lay persons telling the depressed, “read your Bible.”
Your ability to concentrate to understand what you are reading pretty much vanishes. You can read the same page ten times in a row and not understand or remember anything you just read ten times over. I don’t think listening to an “audio Bible” would be of much help, either.
I used to have bad anxiety (with nifty panic attacks too), and all the “perfect love casts out all fear” type Bible verses did BUPKISS (nothing) to relieve the anxiety.
Walsh said,
“It is a decision made by an individual. A bad decision. Always a bad decision.”
People who are contemplating suicide after struggling with depression for many years feel as though it’s their ONLY decision, you jerk. That is the part he doesn’t appreciate or “get.”
A guy who blows his head off at age 23 or 24, like the Warren son, often cannot imagine having to put up with another 20 – 30 yrs of day in, day out of pure mental hell.
I think Robin Williams should be applauded for living as long as he did, and making it to age 63 before he gave up, not being shouted down for “refusing to see the beauty in life” and all the other DRECK and nonsense Walsh vomited on his blog. Walsh is truly stupid about depression and suicide.
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There were so many things in Mr Walsh’s article that struck a chord with me…a wrong chord. I’m glad to see it being addressed here.
I have been “low” and had some VERY dark days, just this past winter while I was struggling to find the path forward through a marriage that was dead to a man who is abusive, narcissistic, with compulsive sexual behavior, deceptive and lying about everything while he was leading a double life. Days were dark, indeed. I saw no “out” and my choices were very narrow with no “upside” – even as my 4yr old son struggled through chemo for kidney cancer. I could relate very well to those in the Bible who wished they were dead (Job, Elijah, Jonah, etc) – simply because it was preferable to the hell I was living.
Please understand, I am in NO WAY comparing my pain to that of Mr Williams’. I have adrenal fatigue and hypothyroid (which can mimic depression) but I do not have clinical depression nor bi-polar disorder. I understand it is MUCH different; apples to oranges.
Yet, I can remember the day when driving my car off the interstate seemed like an uncontrollable urge. It was dark and SCARY. I had to pray. Hard. just to keep my car within its lane. Dark, dark thoughts clouded my mind about my husband, his choices, our marriage, my lack of options – as tears streamed down my face. Thoughts of my 4yr old kept me sane. I was at an extremely low point. It lasted 2hrs…one day. I climbed out of that hole w/ Jesus beside me and every day has gotten better and better. Not a perfect trajectory but not nearly the dark chasm that day was.
Again. NOT the same as Mr Williams’ LIFE-long battle.
I am in full agreement with BrendaR – death, no matter how it arrives or what form it takes is painful for all involved.
There is just so much I disagree with about Mr Walsh’s article. So much.
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Matthew Walsh sounds familiar for some reason, but who is James Hartline?
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What would it take for the likes of James Hartline and Matt Walsh to have a change of heart, to acquire hearts of flesh in place of hearts of stone? That they too should fall into the deepest depths of clinical depression? I do not wish it on them.
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What kind of Christian testimony is it to respond to a death by being mean and judgmental?
People who deny the reality of mental illness will have a lot to answer for someday.
Just because I might not understand something doesn’t mean I don’t accept what experts tell us is real. It’s hard for me to believe that airplanes can fly and I don’t understand the science of it all, but I do travel by plane.
I always knew that clinical depression required medication and therapy but until a few years ago, depression just meant sadness to me so I didn’t understand it. When I was depressed, I took a walk, reread a favorite book, and waited it out. Once I actually became clinically depressed (first husband’s terminal illness), I was astonished at how bad it felt. I would never have believed that I could sit for hours in despair, desperately wanting to so something that needed to be done and completely unable to do anything at all and feeling that life could never get better. Now that I am not depressed, it’s hard to remember how bad it was. But it was bad.
I am praying for his family.
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GaryW, that was my thought. And yet it seems that someone who has never experienced that feeling will invariably feel as if it’s something you can just talk yourself out of.
Suicidal thoughts are very common in my family, both those who came before me, and those descended from me. It’s frightening. One thing that has kept me here through some of the darkest times, is the understanding of how devastated *I* would be if one of those I love were to make that choice, and I cannot do that to them.
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@Daisy
“One of the only reasons I am still here and did not commit suicide myself is because I am very, very stubborn.”
And I’m so glad you are. I appreciate your comments on the blogs. Btw, what I used to view as “stubborn” I now see as “perseverance.” It’s trait I sometimes lack, and admire in others.
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The coldness, insensitivity, harsh judgementalism of those professing to be “Christian” leave me feeling utterly condemned and hopeless.
You guys already know my story and that I have chronic, cyclical, major clinical depression with suicidal ideations (about every few months for over 21 years). And yes, I could attribute it to my brain tumor, but I don’t think that’s the cause. I am sure it’s from over 50 years of abuse and no one, not even family, cared enough to listen, understand or care.
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We believe that a “real” blood bought Christian will NEVER have depression.
I know a woman who was saved after being married for many years. Once she became a Christian her husband left her because, “She wasn’t fun anymore.” She went into depression and ended up spending some time in a psychiatric ward. She was a baby Christian and didn’t have the support or knowledge she needed to be able to handle the situation and had what was considered a nervous breakdown. She fears going into such a state again.
How do these folks know that a true Christian will NEVER have depression? There is all sorts of things that happen to true Christian’s. They loose faith, they get sad, they do things they regret and they get depressed. These folks judge as if they were God.
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Gary W
AUGUST 12, 2014 @ 3:27 PM
What would it take for the likes of James Hartline and Matt Walsh to have a change of heart, to acquire hearts of flesh in place of hearts of stone? That they too should fall into the deepest depths of clinical depression? I do not wish it on them.
——————
I’m afraid for most of them, yes, that is what it takes.
I’ve read testimonies over the years by other “Matt Walshes,” including men who work as preachers, who later repented of the trash views Walsh is barfing all over twitter and his blog, by guys who said once THEY themselves became depressed and found that Bible reading or “choosing” to think sunny thoughts didn’t bring them a drop of relief, they realized just how woefully wrong they had been about depression.
One such preacher said his depression went away only after he started seeing a doc and taking meds for it. He said in a video testimony that he now counselors the depressed who see him to give docs and meds a try, he says he no longer tells them to “read your Bible” or “pray more.”
It took getting depressed and suicidal himself for him to realize how ill informed, wrong headed, insensitive, and wrong Matt- Walsh- Christian-like advice is like.
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I have a confession to make. I almost lied. Maybe I did lie. I have a very difficult time not wishing that the likes of James Hartline and Matt Walsh would fall into deep, dark depression. While I am not personally touched by depression, there are way too many around me who are. It isn’t the only reason, but one of the main reasons I have walked away from organized “Christianity” is because of the way so many Bible-only “pastors” mock the mental health professions. I want to say to Hell with them, but that would be unseemly, maybe even sinful.
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Charis,
I am glad you got through your dark days and are still here. I have been through abusive marriage in addition to health issues. You’re not alone!
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@ BeenThereDoneThat
Thank you, BTDT. 🙂
I used to post at The Wartburg Watch on a regular basis, but the moderators there put me into permanent moderated status (it’s been about a month and a half now), so I don’t visit there as much as I used to.
(This happened after a heated exchange where some of the more left wing members expressed views that the SPLC is the epitome of sterling trustworthiness, I said, I disagree, I think they are a leftist group with an agenda, and one guy there got real mouthy with me in return, and I told him to blow off. I’ve not been able to post freely there in about a month or more, but the ones who blew up at me are apparently not on probation.)
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Daisy,
I know it’s hollow coming from me since I have not experienced what you have, but I am sorry you have been through what you describe. I know of at least one person whose views about the supposed spiritual roots of depression changed when they themselves began to experience it. Fortunately, the person I am thinking of probably did not have full blown clinical depression, though I would not necessarily have been told if they did.
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Gary said,
It isn’t the only reason, but one of the main reasons I have walked away from organized “Christianity” is because of the way so many Bible-only “pastors” mock the mental health professions. I want to say to Hell with them, but that would be unseemly, maybe even sinful.
——————-
They remind me of Scientologists on this point. I’ve seen Tom Cruise screaming and yelling on TV shows about the evils of psychology or drugs. (I don’t have anything against Cruise, I have enjoyed many of his films, but I don’t share his religious views.)
One issue I have with some Christians or denominations is that they often echo cultic groups.
If you claim to be Christian, yet you are spouting off identical views as the Scientology cult about drugs or psychology, shouldn’t that give you pause?
Or, the Christian gender complementarian groups who talk about modesty like militant Muslims, so if a woman is raped, they blame her for walking alone at 2 AM or wearing a short skirt?
Then you have your Christian gender complementarian who believe women will submit to husbands in the afterlife, which is just like how the Mormons believe, and they are a cult.
In all this talk about depression and psychology and so forth, don’t forget the dangerous teachings of Christian Nouthetic counseling (sometimes aka “biblical counseling”).
Nouthetic counselers will blame the victims. They will tell victims the reason you have depression (or were raped or what have you) is due to your personal sin.
They don’t teach what the Bible does, that sometimes bad junk happens to good people just because it happens, or that sin permeates all the world….. nope, they will tell victims “you suffer because of your personal sin, you did something to bring it on yourself.”
And @ Charis and waitingforthetrumpet2
I’m very sorry for the suffering you’ve endured and that you have either been ignored by other Christians during your time of pain, or have been met with hurtful, stupid platitudes or judgment. 😦
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I have a confession to make. I almost lied. Maybe I did lie.
Gary, I think we all wish even if it is way down deep and don’t let it come to the surface that people would have things happen to them that they don’t seem to have any empathy for. It seems as though talking heads don’t think before or after they speak. They have no compassion. It shows just how much compassion that you have for others that you didn’t really want bad things to have to perhaps bad people or maybe just a little bit. : )
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Aaachh! By addressing only Daisy, others may feel like they were being blown off. I erred.
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@Daisy
Ugh. I’m sorry to read that. That is the type of stuff I’m getting fed up with.
It’s amazing what you find when you step out of this fray. I recently spent a good bit of time looking at fashion blogs. (I have to learn how to dress normally again after stepping out of a 2 decade time warp of near-Amish dressing.) Some of them were a bit too much for my SAHM lifestyle. One in particular was a petite Asian woman who wore very high end fashion. What fascinated me about her was she was raised in the foster care system, worked 3 jobs to pay for her college education, and now works with non-profits as an advocate for kids in the juvenile justice system.
No plastic fish required. 🙂
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If you claim to be Christian, yet you are spouting off identical views as the Scientology cult about drugs or psychology, shouldn’t that give you pause?
Daisy, My answer is Yepper!! If there is no difference between the beliefs of a Christian and a Scientologist–I see big issues.
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I don’t know who James Hartline is. He was following me. The tweets in the post are embedded and so the hyperlinks work. I think you should be able to get to his profile. He has a blog and looks like he’s had a rough past, including mental health issues. I’m wondering if Williams’ death has stirred things for him.
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BTDT,
You will need to send before and after pictures.
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As to the question of the eternal consequences of suicide itself, it sure appears to me that Judas Iscariot was included when Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” (Matthew 19:28 ESV)
Maybe what I am suggesting here is too mind boggling to embrace. Then again, Jesus himself is beyond mind boggling. I am convinced that, in our minds, we have severely limited the extent of what He has accomplished for us.
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Hi, I enjoy your blog. De-lurking this one time to say: I got pregnant 4 years ago out of wedlock, and my baby passed away at six months, which utterly devastated me and changed my life forever. A member of my church, when he heard, said, “Well, you learned your lesson, didn’t you?”
I then threatened him with bodily harm, at which point he looked horrified, made a quick apology and left. (I know this was not the best way to respond.) The next time he saw me, he apologized profusely. I found out later that this guy just did not have any understanding of the feelings of others, and I wasn’t the only one he had hurt. I thank God that there were other people there who understood the pain I was in and cared for me. I wish people like the dude above would think, and PRAY with sincere hearts, before they open their mouths or laptops.
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Maybe what I am suggesting here is too mind boggling to embrace. Then again, Jesus himself is beyond mind boggling. I am convinced that, in our minds, we have severely limited the extent of what He has accomplished for us.
Gary, That is going to take some serious consideration. Although, when thinking about it, Peter did deny Jesus 3 times as he foretold. He also said that one would betray him with a kiss. I suppose both were betrayals. Judas motives were for money and greed, but were suppose to happen. Was Judas repentant? Could he just not live with what he had done? This brings up lots of questions.
We very often do make God much smaller than who he really is. This is the first time that I have considered Judas being on one of the 12 thrones. Huh, this is mind boggling.
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@Brenda R
“BTDT,
You will need to send before and after pictures.” 🙂
My pics certainly wouldn’t be blog worthy, but they’d definitely fall under the “before and after” category.
You know, I belonged to one of those “churches” that preached “suicide is sin” and didn’t believe in mental health issues. It’s very sad to see that same sentiment swirling around in other “Christian” circles outside my former bubble. But, I’m glad there are other Christians who are speaking out against that attitude.
One of the issues that I read Robin Williams was dealing with was financial struggles. Man, could I ever relate to that one. I read some comments addressing Hall making restitution. My husband is in the process of “making restitution” until he has paid back every dollar that he owes. It’s hard. Very hard. He’s been told not many contractors would even attempt it. I now know why.
Some of these tweeters and bloggers NEED to walk a mile in someone else’s shoes before sharing their “wisdom.”
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Lynn, I’m glad you came out of lurkdom to share your experience. I’m so sorry to hear about the loss of your baby. 😦
I love your story, though, because your instant response – and obviously heartfelt response – woke him up to the reality that he was dealing with a human being with feelings. Good for you! You may have helped him to become more aware of how hurtful his words were. Some people lack common decency or a tender heart to care. It’s sad.
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Charis,
Thanks for sharing your story. I’m so glad you are here and those difficult days are behind you. Sometimes what life gives us can be overwhelming. I’ve seen some dark days, too. It can be really, really tough.
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I don’t know, Gary. I think there are some other factors to consider there, most of which are found in Acts 1:15-26, particularly vs. 20 where Peter speaking of Judas, quotes Ps 69:25 that speaks of the tents of the wicked being desolate, and 109:8 that says “let another take his office.” Peter then goes on to say this replacement must be a witness of the resurrection, which Judas was not. In the end, the lot fell to Matthias.
Now it is true Peter did not mention anything about 12 thrones in the kingdom in Acts 1, but it seems unlikely that if another was to take Judas’ place as an earthly witness of Apostolic status that the place of the throne in the kingdom would be reserved for Judas, especially with the verses Peter quoted. (The section from Ps 69 is especially discouraging in this regard.)
Scripture never says anything good about Judas. Jesus says of the 12 in His prayer in John 17:12, “Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scriptures might be fulfilled.” So here He says Judas was lost. In another place He calls Judas a “devil.” I can’t think of anywhere in Scripture where any Christian was called anything like a son of perdition or a devil. But rather, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Therefore, I’m thinking it’s a long shot that Judas has a throne in the kingdom.
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@Daisy~
“I used to post at The Wartburg Watch on a regular basis, but the moderators there put me into permanent moderated status (it’s been about a month and a half now), so I don’t visit there as much as I used to.”
I am glad you post here. I learn a lot from your comments. Thank you for sharing about your depression. I admire your conquering spirit.
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@lynn~
“A member of my church, when he heard, said, “Well, you learned your lesson, didn’t you?”
Hard to believe someone could be that cold. I am glad you had others for support.
@Charis~
Thinking of our kids does really pull us through some dark times, doesn’t it? It does for me. A reason to live…to keep going.
@refugee~
“One thing that has kept me here through some of the darkest times, is the understanding of how devastated *I* would be if one of those I love were to make that choice, and I cannot do that to them.”
I can totally agree with that. I can also see that those who are in a dark, lengthy depression would not be able to necessarily see that clearly or make a choice, but would feel totally choice-less and without hope.
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Gary, as someone who has struggled with depression in the past, attempted suicide as a teen, cutting, etc… because of abuse at home, I appreciate that you GET IT. I enjoy all your contributions and your tender heart.
My conviction is that Judas is a special case of judgement.
“And after the sop Satan entered into him . Then said Jesus unto him , That thou doest , do quickly .” John 13:27
“The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.” Matt 26:24
I personally think Matthias will be on that 12th throne not Judas. Acts 1:26
In case anyone has fears, Judas was not lost because he committed suicide, but because he was the betrayer.
Walsh is ignorant. I hope to mature emotionally and spiritually enough to feel sorry for people with this attitude some day.
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Wonderful response from Kay Warren.
Poor response from Matt Walsh. I guess that’s why someone launched a blog called: “What is Matt Walsh Wrong About Today?”
Forgive me if someone else already added this to this comment thread, but here’s their post: http://whatismattwalshwrongabouttoday.com/robin-williams/
By the way, the idea that depression is a sign of spiritual sin is held mainly by nouthetic so-called “biblical counselors.” You’ll know them because of their NANC afflilation. Stay away from them. They blame depressed for for having enough faith, just as faith healers blame sick people for not having enough faith. Fortunately they are the minority in Christendom.
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Sorry, I can’t type. Let’s try that again:
Stay away from them. They blame depressed people for NOT having enough faith, just as faith healers blame sick people for not having enough faith. Fortunately they are the minority in Christendom.
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Barnabasintraining,
I guess that you forgot that Jesus called Peter Satan himself. Is Judas the son of Peter?
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Randy, thanks for that. And you raised a good point about Judas.
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Barnabasintraining, Brenda R,
Yeah, the idea that Judas would be included amongst those with 12 thrones is a long shot. Still, Jesus said what he said in Matthew 19. If nothing else, Matthew 19 is one of those verses that’s fun to throw at people who insist that the Bible is without error and must be taken literally.
One out is that somebody else was present who would replace Judas. I have my doubts whether it was Mathias. I think it quite possible that the appointment of Mathias, at the instigation of Peter, was just another example of Peter acting presumptuously. The case has been made that the other person was none other than the rich young ruler to whom Jesus had been speaking. Who was the rich young ruler? None other than Paul, formerly Saul! Maybe. The tentative case for this possibility is made by Steve Scott here:
http://fromthepew.blogspot.com/search/label/Rich%20Young%20Ruler
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In my opinion, the suicide of Judas was due to deep regret, and that he was truly sorry. Repentance without words. I, myself, think that Judas was forgiven, especially in part due to when Jesus was on the cross, he said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”. I do believe that included Judas.
Now, some are advocating that suicide is murder.
Not so fast.
King Saul used a witch to conjur up the spirit of Samuel.
Samuel foretold King Saul that “Tomorrow, you will be with me”.
Now, some will say that the witch conjured up a demon. But wait! Scripture keeps saying, “And Samuel said…”, “And Samuel said…”, “And Samuel said…”.
It doesn’t say, “And the demon said…” at all.
Well, the very next day, King Saul committed suicide. And he is with Samuel.
So, before Christians begin judging suicide as murder, THINK AGAIN. I’ve heard that lie all my life.
Ed
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In case anyone has fears, Judas was not lost because he committed suicide, but because he was the betrayer.
Thanks for saying that, Randy. I agree. It probably would have been good if I put that in my comment, but I didn’t. So I’m glad you said it.
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“In case anyone has fears, Judas was not lost because he committed suicide, but because he was the betrayer.”
Yes, Randy, and with thanks to Ed for his contribution, so far as Judas’ relationship to this thread is concerned, you make the salient point. However the enigma of Matthew 19 is resolved.
But I’m not going to be talked out of my conviction that, in our minds, we have severely limited the extent of what Jesus has accomplished for us.
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I guess that you forgot that Jesus called Peter Satan himself.
Yep! I did! Good catch!
I disagree with you about Judas, though.
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But I’m not going to be talked out of my conviction that, in our minds, we have severely limited the extent of what Jesus has accomplished for us.
Yeah. No argument there, for sure.
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I hate the phrase: suicide is selfish.
Most people who attempt suicide do so because they feel:
1) depression- They feel trapped-they have no other way out. According to Psychology Today: “The pain of existence often becomes too much for severely depressed people to bear. The state of depression warps their thinking, allowing ideas like “Everyone would all be better off without me” to make rational sense. They shouldn’t be blamed for falling prey to such distorted thoughts any more than a heart patient should be blamed for experiencing chest pain: it’s simply the nature of their disease.”
2) They need help and are crying out for it in the only way they can muster with how bad of pain they are in. They choose ways that are generally more non-lethal because they don’t really want to die. They just want people to understand that something is seriously wrong.
3) They are paranoid. Paranoia includes attempts related to psychosis, drug induced, religious or belief system programming
There are some people who genuinely do use suicide for selfish reasons:
1) getting back at someone to put them in pain. (Those are not the ones I am discussing below)
Suicide is a taboo topic. People think we shouldn’t ever talk about it and there are some good reasons behind that. We don’t want it glorified and we don’t want to give people the impression that this is a good way to solve your problems. Fair enough.
But not talking about it creates a thick, unseen but all encompassing atmosphere of shame and blame and of unfair and ignorant judgement, perpetuated by people who don’t understand that frame of mind, because they themselves have never reached that low of a point of desperation before.
But meanwhile, real people are living with the inability to escape or stop the pain that they are in, every day and we have exacerbated the problem by duct taping their mouth shut, by condemning and writing off their feelings blanketly, as selfish. Yet how many of those who judge have ever felt depression or PTSD or anxiety or mania so bad that they can’t ever make the inertia of pain stop? How many of them have felt so trapped by the enormity of it all that they could not see any way out of the mental torture. I’m sorry but you can’t just tell someone in that condition quipy little phrases like “suicide is a long term solution for a short term problem.” That is like telling someone who has no food that “man does not live by bread alone”. What??
Suicide is a self absorbed thought, because the person feeling it is focusing on their own pain and not how that act will affect those around them, but it’s because they, in most cases, have lost all hope, all ability to cope and all insight into understanding that others could be affected by their actions. They genuinely think no one cares anyway and that people truly would be better off without them. So while it is a self absorbed mind set, it’s not an actively selfish decision for most people who attempt it. These people have genuinely hit rock bottom. There is no further down for them to go, and here we are, kicking them when they are down by telling them how selfish they are for having thoughts of just needing to escape the pain that they can see no other way out of. But why aren’t we helping them?
We say if you know someone who is expressing suicidal thoughts, it’s your responsibility to call someone who can help them and that is good, but we stop short of really helping by then saying, “but don’t talk about it-it’s a taboo subject”. How many people, knowing that it is considered so taboo, are going to feel able to talk to anyone about how they are really feeling inside? Does this make us approachable to people having these thoughts? It’s like saying, “Hey you with the gushing artery, I have some medical supplies over here and if you can make it over to where I am, I will help you, but if not, sorry you are on your own and please for heavens sake, stop bleeding all over the place. It looks ugly. Don’t you know how this affects those around you? Don’t you know how selfish it is of you to do that?”
Really??
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OK I am so tired of this canard from the “true believer” crowd, who would not Know Jesus if he fell out of the sky and landed on them while they were singing about him. Mr. Hartline needs to look in the phone book for some place where he can rent a clue. Another soul chimed in with its not all about Chemical Imbalances, its about sin. Good luck with that one. Try going through hormonal treatments, steroid treatment or deal with Bipolar disorder etc. Clinical Depression is an illness that can kill if it is not treated, at times it can kill if it is treated. It is not about sin, it may well be about “the fall” but it is not about sin. Suicide in not about selfishness that is a pathetic and childish response and should be ridiculed and mocked and rises to the level of “Holocaust deniers” on the stupid scale. Suicide is about desperation and the trigger or triggers can be extremely subtle, like just a “few tweets”.
Robin Williams struggled with depression for decades, it was not just some aha moment, it is an interaction between physical, psychological, social, and environmental (I E opportunity) factors. Our mind, body, and spirit / soul are interconnected, which is suppose to be a cardinal Christian doctrine. But many of these true believers are actually closet gnostics and dont even get that. (No offense to actual intelligent gnostics). I knew one young man back at my first church that was put on so many steroids to try to help his inflammation he became a bit of a nut. He did become strange and it was right to remove him for the safety of others from the church, but they made it out to be sin. If any of us took what he took, we would go nuts to some degree as well. The Didactic thinking of the true believers is just so stifling to actually finding real answers.
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Barnabasintraining,
Yes, I am aware that many people disagree with me in regards to Judas. But it was Satan that entered into the body of Judas.
I am totally convinced that Judas was forgiven, just like everyone else was forgiven.
And, I think that Judas will indeed be on one of those thrones.
My point about suicide is that it is not murder. I believe that Judas is in heaven with Jesus.
But some advocate that suicide is murder. Where did people come to that conclusion from? The Bible? Really?
Murder REQUIRES hate and malice.
That is the same reason that I abhor anyone telling unbelieving woman at an abortion clinic that abortion is murder. It lacks hate and malice.
Suicide is not murder.
Ed
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“Ergo, you get to the point where suicide seems like your only choice, healing, cure, or hope.”
Yes, literally the only option.
Usually it boils down to a complete lack/loss of hope. How can a suicidal person “refuse” to see what is not there? Or what he/she is unable to see?
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Chapmaned24, Thank you for your words at 6:24.
I’am trusting that Robin’s & Braxton’s last tears have been wiped away by now, and
their pain, shame is no more. I was struck way back in the day by a verse in James
that mercy triumphs over judgement. Be merciful, as the Lord is.
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Gail,
Your very welcome.
Mercy. Now there is a word lacking in some Christian circles. It seems that it is always judgment. For those who constantly brag about their “exe-JESUS” of scripture, how is it that they always seem to miss that one word?
Ed
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Miss Daisy Flower
You are not on our named moderation list. You did it to yourself. We have an automatic filter. If you use certain words, you go into moderation.We will not release those words because we don’t want people playing games with misspellings, etc.
All of your comments have been approved and you should acknowledge it. You have a ton of comments at TWW- far more than most people. Go back and count the numbers of comments you have left compared to others. We have allowed your very lengthy, numerous comments.
So your “theories” as to why you were in moderation are wrong. If you had merely asked us why, we would have told you. Instead, you show poor form and go to the blog of my friend and whine about us.
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My point about suicide is that it is not murder.
OK. I was in a suicidal place at one point myself and I know the main thing for me was unresolvable pain, so I see what you mean there.
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“…it’s because they, in most cases, have lost all hope, all ability to cope and all insight into understanding that others could be affected by their actions. They genuinely think no one cares anyway and that people truly would be better off without them. So while it is a self absorbed mind set, it’s not an actively selfish decision for most people who attempt it. These people have genuinely hit rock bottom. There is no further down for them to go, and here we are, kicking them when they are down by telling them how selfish they are for having thoughts of just needing to escape the pain that they can see no other way out of. But why aren’t we helping them?”
and
“Usually it boils down to a complete lack/loss of hope. How can a suicidal person “refuse” to see what is not there? Or what he/she is unable to see?”
This. Yes. Exactly.
I never thought others would be better off without me…ESPECIALLY not my 5yr old son. Never. And I had never discussed suicide simply because I had never been suicidal, literally, before the moment the urge struck – at the time I was driving my car. I have wondered since then if it wasn’t some sort of Satanic attack because I literally felt compelled to drive my car off the interstate…or into oncoming traffic and it scared me out of my wits. The only thing I knew of to do was to pray and that barely kept me on the road (I was gripping the wheel SO hard).
But yes, the choices before me were ALL terrible. Stay in the marriage and endure more manipulation, lies, abuse while watching my son become the 4th generation of abusive men. Leave yet I am unemployed – doing so would mean financial destitution or ruin as I would inherit half the debt (of whatever he has been up to this past decade and hiding from me). Ostracized from my church and condemned (spiritual abuse). Isolated from my community (he had already kept me isolated and alone for 8yrs – becoming a single mom would only further isolate and introduce new stigma). Judged by my family and pressured to reconcile. Move to the DV Shelter (which I eventually did) and start over. Risk it ALL. Yes. I would rather be in Heaven…and that is what drew me into the grey…I think Satan just took advantage of the despair and pulled me deeper.
I am in a MUCH better place today. God has been faithful. He has been Jehovah Jireh. He has moved MOUNTAINS for me & my son. I know my journey is not over and there will be rough seas ahead. My tears today are ones of deep joy at what HE has done for me, His beloved.
Many thanks for the care expressed by you all this evening. I am fortunate. Like I said, my deepest darkness only lasted a couple hours one afternoon. I cannot imagine darkness like that lasting decades. My heart goes out to those who do.
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There was a recorded interview from Bravo a while back that asked Robin if heaven exists, and he ends up at the pearly gates, what does he want to hear from God?
He responded that he hopes that there is laughter in heaven, but he wants to hear God say, “Two Jews go into a bar…”
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Dee,
I can sympathize with your frustration, but I would encourage you to take it a little bit easy on Daisy. I work in a rough and tumble world where being criticized and contended with and rejected and sometimes hated just kind of comes with the territory, and from long experience it doesn’t much bother me. And yet there is just something aback taking when I only think a comment is being rejected on a blog I regularly participate in. I can’t explain it, but it’s real. However irrational it might be, I guess it just kind of feels like rejection, by a close friend. And this is from somebody who has never had a comment actually rejected. Only delayed, or maybe auto shuttled to spam.
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I heard about Robin Williams’ death last night. It made the news in Japan just briefly this morning. I can’t possibly miss him as much as his family will, but I’m very, very sad for them, and sorry that he’s gone.
Daisy, that’s exactly what occurred to me when read Walsh’s tweets. Tom Cruise criticizing Brooke Shields for how she dealt with postpartum depression, like he knows more about it than medical professionals. Or more than someone who’s actually experienced it.
It amazes me how some who bear the name of Christ can act like they know everything about everything, just because they know the Bible. I pray to God that I never take on an attitude like that.
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Funny – this is the 2nd time in one week where the topic of moderation has come up on both SSB and TWW. We have a lot of cross-over readers, but we really are 2 different blogs. Also, because TWW has more traffic, they have to set their filters more than me. It seems like every week, however, Word Press, for some unknown reason, will yank a comment and put it in the spam box (even when there were no word violations). I have no idea why this happens.
So, if this happens, either leave a comment to let me know or send an e-mail so I can take a look. I get 1,000s of spam comments a day and it’s just too time consuming to wade through them when 99.9999 are legitimate spam. But if I get a notification of something not posting, I can do a search and retrieve it. So, just let me know. Thanks all 🙂
I just checked my spam box – 2,236 spams and it was emptied this morning. OY!
PS, I’ve never put anyone in the SSB doghouse without a warning.
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“…but I can’t comprehend it. The complete, total, absolute rejection of life. The final refusal to see the worth in anything, or the beauty, or the reason, or the point, or the hope.”
Hey, Matt, then shut up, you self righteous, hurtful jerk.
Love,
Someone who’s had a gun to their head.
(will be posted on his blog asap)
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Who the hell is James Hartline and Matt Walsh?
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As in others areas of life, we cannot to presume to know everything. Life is hard. Life is complicated. To be critical is wrong. To pray, to love, to support… We are then able to help. To reach out to the hurting is to be the Lord’s ambassadors. How we need to be the ones. Let’s leave the rest to God. Only He knows….
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BTDT,
Taking the easy road is not always the best road and it makes it hard on the rest of the family. I don’t know anything about your husband, but his making restitution for whatever reason is honorable. We may find out that Robin Williams did what he did for what in his mind were honorable and for his family rather than against them. Although twisted, a person can do the wrong thing for all the right reasons.
The pastor at the church I attend made a comment one time when I first started there about Bi-polar disorder, which made me think that he believed saved people should not have mental illness. He’s never made another statement like that sense and hope he never does. It is ridiculous. If that were true, why would the elderly have dementia or Alzheimer’s disease. Those are still mental disorders, yet accepted.
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Lynn,
I am so sorry to hear about your little one. We don’t understand why these things happen, only God knows why He takes someone from us, but they are only borrowed from Him. My daughter had a baby when she was a teen and unmarried. The Lord took Him home when he was 9 months old from SIDS and it was very difficult for her and the entire family. She has been unable to conceive since then, which in no way means she is being punished and neither were you.
Your response to this person’s cruel remark may have been a wake up call for them. I very much hope that he will consider his responses before he says them in the future. People can be very cruel and unjustified in their speech. A child is a gift from God and never a mistake. God doesn’t make mistakes.
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Ed, Yes and no.
You said: I am totally convinced that Judas was forgiven, just like everyone else was forgiven.
Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Luke 23:34. This was while he was on the cross and being mocked and tortured, while Judas was already gone.
Jesus asked for the Father’s forgiveness for the one sin, their mockery of Him, that does not mean they were forgiven in entirety. Many were still unbelievers and never became believers and will not be in Heaven. Jesus only took one of the thieves hanging with Him on the cross with Him that day. The other died while unforgiven and didn’t want forgiveness. He was an unbeliever.
I am not convinced that Judas really was a believer. I had to chew on this one for a while. Jesus knew what Judas was going to do and I believe He loved Judas. Judas realized too late what he had done and couldn’t live with it. I find nowhere that he repented, instead he ended his life.
There is a line between mental illness and sin. Judas sinned. He sold out the Savior for 30 pieces of silver.
While, I don’t agree that people should be shouting obscenities at women going into abortion clinics, I would find giving loving alternatives most desirable. Abortion is not a “health” issue for most women. There are other alternatives. There is a living being inside their bodies. Women abort their children for all kinds of reasons. People make mistakes and regret discarding their babies, others use this method as a means of birth control. God will be the judge, not me. I don’t believe God is happy with abortion. A couple at the church I attend just adopted their 3rd baby.
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I think Satan just took advantage of the despair and pulled me deeper.
Charis, I truly believe this happens to many people who do not have a mental illness or imbalance of some kind. A thought crosses your mind and it is hard to get rid of. Satan will try anything to suck us in. There have been many things over the years where I have had to stop and say where is this thought coming from. Repeated prayer and asking for the Lord’s mercy and guidance are the only things that got me through some very dark moments. I agree with you, I can’t imagine feeling that way through decades. Even when there were dark things happening through the decades, He pulled me through.
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@Brenda R
” I don’t know anything about your husband, but his making restitution for whatever reason is honorable.”
I need to write up an intro on the forum. Thank you. He is doing what he believes is the right thing to do. Too bad our former “church” didn’t think so.
The last sentence in your comment to Charis reminded me of that Gold City song “He Brought Me Through.” I haven’t thought of Gold City in years. We used to sing a lot of their songs in my former “church.” (See, cults aren’t ALL bad. 🙂 ) Anyway, I came across one this morning that was very encouraging given the recent subject matter. (I don’t know about anyone else, but my psyche is just FRIED right now.) We used to actually (don’t laugh) run the aisles to this one in good ol’ Pentecostal fashion.
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Brenda,
I’m wouldn’t be so sure about that, Brenda. The whole crowd had said, “Crucify him, crucify him.”
The whole purpose of Jesus coming here was indeed that cross. That was his purpose. He had to get to that cross. And the ONLY way that he was gonna get to that cross is if the devil played a part.
Judas is not the devil. The devil entered into the body of Judas.
Remember now, that Jesus said that they didn’t know what they were doing. For if they had known, they wouldn’t have killed him. Peter states that in the book of Acts.
They were blinded to that fact. That may be hard to believe, but God blinded the Jews so that they would NOT see him as the Messiah.
Think of the consequences if Jesus never got to that cross. We would still be without a savior.
So, when Jesus said Father forgive them, for they know not what they do, NO ONE knew what they were doing.
Peter puts the responsibility of killing Jesus upon everyone present in the book of Acts. It had nothing to do with mockery. They killed Jesus. Even tho they didn’t put him on that cross, or put that spear into his side, they still killed him. Judas played a part. That was the PLAN from the foundation of the earth.
I am convinced that Judas was indeed forgiven, just like everyone else. Judas killed himself out of guilt. He was ashamed. But suicide is not a sin.
King Saul committed suicide, and the day before, Samuel told him that he would be with him the next day.
Ed
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BTDT,
I had never heard of Gold City or maybe I’m just not familiar with this song, but I do love southern gospel
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About a month ago a homeschooling mother of 15 committed suicide. So sad. Now there are people bringing meals to the family for the rest of the year. Why did it have to take a tragedy for people to help out?
A month or two earlier a relative of a friend (wife and mother of two) committed suicide. The nine month old baby snuggled up to his mama in the casket, waiting for her to wake up. So very sad.
We don’t know what pains and burdens many people bear.
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@TIA
“We don’t know what pains and burdens many people bear.”
Indeed.
My heart goes out to the families you mentioned.
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Ed,
Ok, you didn’t answer why one thief was taken to paradise and the other not. Christ did die for all that would accept Him. We killed him as much as those that were around the cross that day. If we do not accept Him as the Messiah, we will not be saved, we will not be with Him in Heaven. I believe the same is true for those that witnessed the crucifixion. Mary, His mother was in attendance. She was heart broken and I don’t believe she was in the “Crucify Him” mob, but He died for her, as well.
When reading Matthew 27:3-4a the KJV does say, “Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.” Now does that mean he was sorry, agonizing and just wanted it all to go away, or did he take his sin to God for repentance? That I am not sure of. It will be so cool to have all the answers once I’m there. .
In Exodus 9, God hardened the heart of Pharoah and caused several different plagues. Do you think that because God chose to harden Pharoah’s heart that he was forgiven? Or, did God choose to harden his heart because he already knew the condition of his heart and he would not accept Him under any circumstances anyways? Pharoah was used in God’s plan as was Judas.
In Acts 7:60 ” And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.” did this excuse all of their sins and bring them to Christ when this happened to Stephen? Or was Stephen forgiving them and asking God for forgive them for this one sin?
These examples are obviously not suicides, but these things were also in God’s plan. God prepares a place for his followers, he also prepares a place for those who choose otherwise and uses them for his desires as well as believers. He is the potter, we are the clay. God can do whatever he wants with the clay.
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Brenda,
OK, after I sent my last, I did notice that I didn’t mention the other thief on the cross, and now you bring up other things, too.
1. The other thief on the cross did not repent for being a thief, as far as I can see.
2. Again, no matter how Judas “repented”, that sin is not laid upon him, all due to the fact that Jesus said “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do”. So, the procedure of the step by step process of Judas’ footsteps to repent, to me, doesn’t matter. I see his repentance by his acts of returning the money, and in his desperation of committing suicide.
3. Yes, I do indeed believe that the Pharaoh is in heaven. Why? Because God toyed with him. God is the one who hardened his heart. You can’t blame Pharaoh. This is where God has mercy. The Pharaoh was gonna release the children of Israel several times. But God forced the Pharaoh not to, so that….so that….so that God could continue to show his power.
In addition…What does Romans 5:13 say? That verse is NEVER mentioned by the Calvinists. If you ever see a teaching of Romans 5 from them, they go from verse 12, skip verse 13, and resume at verse 14.
4. Stephen and Jesus…both of them asked God to forgive their killers. I discussed this one already the other day on another thread. It’s called “Bind and Loose”.
Personal sin. If someone sins against ME, I have the authority to forgive those who sinned against ME. And that absolved that sin in heaven. Both Jesus and Stephen did that.
But in regards to what God did with the Pharaoh and Judas, that was THIS LIFE. This has nothing to do at all in regards to the after life.
The flesh is of the earth. The spirit is not of the earth.
If God uses the CLAY, that has nothing to do with the spirit. The clay is the flesh.
That is my opinion.
Ed
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Brenda,
“If we do not accept Him as the Messiah, we will not be saved, we will not be with Him in Heaven. I believe the same is true for those that witnessed the crucifixion. Mary, His mother was in attendance. She was heart broken and I don’t believe she was in the “Crucify Him” mob, but He died for her, as well.”
Gentiles vs. Jews
Romans 11 explains the Jews.
Mary, Jesus’ earthly mom, followed Jesus. She believed. She is a Christian, so to speak. In Christ (Christian) there is no Gentile or Jew.
NOT in Christ, there is Gentile and Jew. Not in Christ, there is male and female, etc.
Ed
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From what I’ve read of Matt Walsh now and in the past, a good rule of thumb to determine what Jesus would say in a situation is to read Matt’s blog and say the exact opposite.
I’m not kidding.
The sad part is that typically there’s a large army of Christian sycophants who pile on about how amazing Matt’s blog is and viciously attack any contrary views. You know, just like Jesus would do. At least he’s getting *some* sizable pushback on this latest blog…as he very well should.
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I know I haven’t posted much on this blog since my marriage two months ago and I apologize. I miss this community. All I can say is that these two months have been a period of refinement and finding myself again. These past 6-10 years have been extremely hard physically, emotionally and spiritually. I have seen depths of pain that can’t really be described. And I too have wished it would all just go away. I didn’t care how, just make it all stop. For me, marrying my husband has been the greatest gift I could ever imagine. I have rediscovered what it means to smile so much that your face hurts or to laugh so much that your tummy muscles are sore. I have learned to wake up in the morning and not dread the fact that a new day has come. My best friend told me during a phone call that she has found the old me again, the one that she became friends with 16 years ago. The circumstances that brought me and my husband together are truly a miracle and I am thankful.
Back to the original topic. I get it. I get what its like to be so consumed with pain and have no way out. In my case, it is physical. My body just does not make sense to the medical community and I am trapped with no pain relief in sight (part of that is due to my many allergies). In the disabled community, suicide is real and it happens. You just want to be released whatever it takes. I don’t know what kind of pain drove Robin Williams to take his own life, I can’t begin to fathom what he was enduring, but my heart breaks with his. I am still afraid of tomorrow. My husband and I are planning and preparing for when I start to use a wheelchair full time. Its a matter of when, not if and probably in just a couple years. But in the meantime we are packing in as much as we can. I call it my “farewell to walking” tour. Sometimes that is what keeps me going. My husband calls it my “what’s around the next bend” attitude. When we go on short hikes in the mountains, I literally don’t want to stop because I always want to see what is around the next bend. That is literally what happened when I climbed all the way to a mountain lake, far beyond when my husband wanted me to stop. 😀 And I paid for it for the next couple of weeks. As BTDT said, it is perseverance not stubbornness.
I don’t know how to cure depression. My husband struggled with it during the fallout of his first, abusive marriage. Anti-depressants didn’t do much for him. What did make a difference was spending as much time in the mountains as possible. For whatever reason, he found his healing in the peace and quiet there. Even now we go walking on our favorite trails 3-4 times a week (and we are scouting wheelchair accessible areas along the way). Life is still really hard and money is still extremely tight.
BeenThereDoneThat, I have learned much from you and your husband. I too am trying to find my own sense of style now that I am not bound by excessive rules of modesty. Surprisingly my husband has been the best person to help me do that. He enjoys shopping with me and helping me put together outfits and figure out what is flattering on me – much to his shock as well. 🙂 It takes time. Just ask me about wedding dress shopping. 😀
To everyone else who comments here, I’m not ignoring you either. I am inspired by all of you.
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Mandy,
I am so glad that you and your husband found each other and you sound blissfully happy. It amazes me when people come together in spite of adversity and to find a man who likes to shop with you–a priceless treasure. I know a woman who was diagosed with MS just before her wedding and told her fiance that she wouldn’t hold him to it. They have now been married 21 years. There is someone out there that will love you just because you are you. I see them often as we both live with the same disease. A couple of weeks ago, I had to give up dress shopping after an hour, I can’t even imagine wedding dress shopping but I am sure you were lovely.
Blessings, Brenda
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So, so good to hear from you, Mandy, and I’m thrilled to hear that you’ve made so much progress that your long-time friend took note. I’m glad you are enjoying life with your new husband.
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You are inspiring, too, Mandy! It’s so good to hear from you again. I’m glad that you had a good wedding, and that you two have been busy planning for your lives together. It warms all our hearts to know that you’re finding joy in life again, especially after you’ve been through so much. May God continue to bless you and your husband, and give you courage and strength for whatever lies ahead.
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Good question, Muff. A doctor who wrote a response to Matt Walsh refers to him as a “professional blogger”. He calls himself a “professional sayer of truths” on his own blog page. Walsh also hits readers up for donations (saying his blog is his primary source of income) and is available for speaking engagements. Some commenters say he’s a youth pastor, but I don’t see any credentials listed.
In other words, Matt Walsh appears to be a professional bloviator. Who James Hartline is, I have no clue. Haven’t checked yet. As for why we should listen seriously to either of them, again I am shrugging.
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Chapmaned 24,
I find your views and reasons interesting. I’d like to add mine to the mix. I believe that it is possible that Saul, Judas Iscariat and Pharaoh could be in heaven as opposed to some people who believe that they are not. But I do think that they have to have their hearts right just like everyone else. I don’t think that God supernaturally just hardens people’s hearts nor do I believe that he just supernaturally softens people’s hearts, I don’t even believe in irresistible grace. What I believe is that he uses events that he knows have a very good chance at hardening a heart that is not ready to be proven that God is and that God is good. I don’t believe that God caused Pharaoh to abuse the Israelites with his hard heart. Pharaoh chose to be mean. I don’t think that God ever violates our wills. So, in saying that it is still possible for people not to go to heaven. Heaven won’t be heaven if people’s hearts are not eternally after God, and only God knows the moment that a heart is ready to be eternally yielded to God and never will even desire life apart from God again. That is how I think God works all things together for the good of all mankind. Jesus said that hell was never meant for people.
As far as suicide? That is a work, we can’t work our way into salvation so it stands to reason that we can’t work our way out of salvation. Although I believe in Freewill I do also believe in eternal security for the born again spirit.
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This was a nice response, I thought.
http://redemptionpictures.com/2014/08/13/how-to-not-be-matt-walsh/
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Ed,
Saul–had been a very bad boy. He was anointed, given a good spirit, made king and blew it. He was totally going against God in every way he could and was being stripped of his position and the good spirit was replaced by a bad one. Saul continued in his wicked ways trying to kill David, the newly anointed would be king. In 1 Samuel 28 Saul goes to a witch because the Lord had turned him over to the dark side and no longer heard his cries or prayers. Because a witch is not of God but of darkness, she could not bring up a good spirit without God’s intervention. Samuel’s spirit came and even distressed the witch. When Samuel said in 28:19 ….and tomorrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me……He was saying they would be dead, not necessarily with God. Saul was never repentant of the things he did against God, he made excuses for what he did.
I haven’t gotten to Judas yet. Don’t you just hate it when work has to take priority to a good Bible discussion?
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Before I go absolutely bonkers. On the subtitle in the word “look,” do you see yellow background? I keep seeing it, but when I go to the work page of the blog, it doesn’t show it. I think I’m going nuts.
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No yellow, JA.
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It’s so weird. Sometimes it’s there, other times it’s not. Maybe by the time I finish my degree I’ll figure out this stuff. ha!
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Matt Walsh responded:
http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/08/13/depression-isnt-choice-suicide-response-critics/
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Ed,
Consider Mark 14: 17-26. Verse 21 especially, “The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.” Judas was a thief who wanted to sell the oil that Jesus was anointed with to “give” to the poor (not so much–his reasoning was that it was a waste, not giving Jesus a lot of worship for being the Messiah) and tried to turn the evil he had done by returning the silver he had taken and saying he was wrong for taking it. Even they knew it was blood money. I see no where that Judas tried to reconcile with God, instead he immediately hung himself without repenting to God or Jesus.
Peter on the other hand felt so unworthy and distraught when denying his Lord that he did repent and was reconciled. Jesus appeared to Peter personally when he was resurrected. Peter continued to follow the Lord until his death and remained with the feeling of unworthiness and was crucified upside down.
All of the disciples disappeared, but gathered back together after the resurrection of Christ.
This in no way is saying that suicide is always a sin. Judas had enough sins to answer for before he hung himself.
Brenda
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pattij553,
“I don’t think that God supernaturally just hardens people’s hearts”
Well, I do believe that God supernaturally did. We cannot get around that GOD hardened the Pharaohs heart. The Bible plainly said that.
The pharaoh did not harden his own heart.
Yes, God did supernaturally toy with people. He toyed with more people than just the Pharaoh. The topic of irresistible grace has nothing to do with any of this at all. For one, I am not a Calvinist, therefore I do not believe in irresistible grace. I do not believe in ANYTHING about the Calvinist version of the word grace. I do not believe in the doctrines of grace. I do not believe in “original sin”, either.
But I do believe in Romans 5:13.
This topic is a very long and very long and very long. It’s hard to explain the supernatural acts of God. But I have not only read, but studied these very topics in God’s supernatural interference.
When you see all of the “blessings” given in the book of Genesis from the (OH, HOW I HATE TO USE THIS WORD) patriarchs, those blessings are PROPHECY.
Take for example ONAN. A son of Judah. Jesus is supposed to come from the tribe of Judah. Well, Onan spilled his seed. So GOD killed him. Was it a sin to spill your seed? The Catholics sure seem to think so. But I don’t.
Based on CUSTOM, the brother of Onan was to take Onans wife as his wife, but the child would be that of Onan. Well, that didn’t work out so well, so God killed him. I think that the next brother was supposed to do the same thing. God killed him, too.
Keep in mind that Jesus is to come from the tribe of Judah. So what did the widow of Onan do? She pretended to be a prostitute, and Judah had sex with someone who he thought was a prostitute.
Hence, prophecy fulfilled that Jesus was to come from family line of Judah.
Yes, God fulfills prophecy by intervening supernaturally, because, as we are told, we fight not against flesh and blood.
That whole battle was between Satan, and God. Not, Onan. Satan did not want Jesus to be born.
There are tons of examples of God interfering in man’s affairs, because of Satan, not man. Satan wants to thwart the prophesies of God, and Satan interferes, too.
This is not a flesh and blood thing with the Pharaoh. It’s spiritual. Same with Judah. Same with Peter when he lied.
The whole bible is a story about Jesus…not man. Not Moses. Not the Pharaoh. Not Judah. Not Onan. Not Adam. Not Eve.
What I am finding out, is that people are actually reading the Bible as black and white, when there is absolutely no spiritual lenses interpreting something much deeper. Jesus. Prophesy. Supernatural.
Ed
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Brenda,
“Saul–had been a very bad boy. He was anointed, given a good spirit, made king and blew it. He was totally going against God in every way he could and was being stripped of his position and the good spirit was replaced by a bad one. Saul continued in his wicked ways trying to kill David, the newly anointed would be king.”
If you read a bit about what I mentioned above with pattij553, spiritual lenses need to be put on to see something much deeper than just Saul being a bad boy.
The blessings of the Patriarchs of the book of Genesis.
The PEOPLE picked Saul to be King. God picked David to be King.
David is of the Tribe of Judah. Saul is the Tribe of Benjamin. Jesus is of the Tribe of Judah, direct descendent of David.
Prophecy must be fulfilled.
Ed
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Brenda,
“Consider Mark 14: 17-26. Verse 21 especially, “The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.” Judas was a thief who wanted to sell the oil that Jesus was anointed with to “give” to the poor (not so much–his reasoning was that it was a waste, not giving Jesus a lot of worship for being the Messiah) and tried to turn the evil he had done by returning the silver he had taken and saying he was wrong for taking it. Even they knew it was blood money. I see no where that Judas tried to reconcile with God, instead he immediately hung himself without repenting to God or Jesus.”
My response:
I default back to Jesus saying, “Father forgive them, for they know not what they do”. It doesn’t matter if we can see Judas trying to reconcile or not. Bind and Loose.
Did any of Stephens killers repent or reconcile with God? No. But they were forgiven regardless. Why? Because Stephen requested that God forgive them. Bind and Loose.
Ed
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Hey all! I’ve been reading a while, but biding my time, not really planning to comment. But . . . uh . . . I’m so furious about Matt Walsh’s TWO recent posts. I’m not venting to my friends, because I have WAY too many friends who love Walsh’s tirades. (Gosh, the way he writes, even when I agree with him I disagree with him)
I get what he’s saying about suicide not being freeing. Sure, he’s right. Suicide is a bad, bad thing (in the sense that it is a thing that should never happen). It hurts people. But appealing to a bunch of tired cliches and telling people feel guilty if those cliches don’t help is not going to set people free from the pain they’re in. “Be joyful!” Gee? Really? Is THAT what I need? THANKS!
I’m going to dump this David Foster Wallace quote here because it’s amazing: “The so-called ‘psychotically depressed’ person who tries to kill herself doesn’t do so out of quote ‘hopelessness’ or any abstract conviction that life’s assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire’s flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the slightly less terrible of two terrors. It’s not desiring the fall; it’s terror of the flames. Yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling ‘Don‘t!’ and ‘Hang on!’, can understand the jump. Not really. You’d have to have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way beyond falling.”
I wish people like Matt Walsh would take some time to listen and understand. I wish they would stop diagnosing cultural ills as though everything can be explained away in a blog post or a facebook update. When somebody’s hurting the answer is not “Aha! I know what Commandment you’re breaking!” or “This problem has to do with postmodernity,” or whatever other crap you want to say that makes you sound smart. It simply doesn’t help people (and the people with these “answers” [Matt Walsh, Doug Wilson, etc.] are frequently dead wrong anyway).
I’m sorry if Walsh has suffered from depression as he claims. If he has, it’s a dead shame that experience didn’t make him more compassionate OR teach him that Christian truisms don’t help people. “Be warmed and filled” (James 2:16) simply doesn’t give people what they need.
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“I don’t believe that God caused Pharaoh to abuse the Israelites with his hard heart.”
Just want to say, pattij553, and anyone else who may be disturbed by this part of the convo, that neither do I, as there are other views and possible interpretations of this section of scripture. I have often read there is a serious mistranslation of the wording concerning the “hardening” of Pharaoh’s heart.
Not that I want to get involved in a debate, being a little weakling with frayed, fragile nerves, but I sure would hate for anyone reading this to sink further into despair, by thinking one must believe that God causes abuse.
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Ed,
I’m well aware of what God was working towards and why God put the Evil Spirit in Saul. I think others look as deep as you do but also see that when man doesn’t do what God tells him to there are consequences. Jesus was coming from the tribe of Judah, but Saul was getting consequences for his disobedience. I am not God and will not pretend to know as much or more than He does. He forgave people that humbled themselves to Him, Saul did not do that. He continued sinning against God.
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Brenda,
And this is also where unbelievers mock Christianity for genocide when God wiped out his own creation during the flood, etc. There is a lot of things in the Bible that some people seem to see that God killed a lot of people for no reason, and told the Jews to take the women as their wives, etc., or when God told the children of Israel to kill everyone, man, woman, and child, leaving nothing. Why did Saul get into trouble? Because he kept some animals alive for the purpose of sacrifice. But he killed everyone else, as commanded.
I hope that this doesn’t trigger anything in anyone, but if all we do is to look at the black and white of things, we are not looking into the spiritual.
The book of Peter for example shows that all of those people that were killed from the flood of Noah, Jesus went to Abraham’s Bosom to preach to them. They were not in Hellfire. They were in Abraham’s Bosom.
Just something to think about.
Ed
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He was jealous of David, Brenda.
Look deeper. All of the traits of Saul represent Satan, not Saul. All of the traits of David represent God, not David.
When we read these historical stories, we need to open our eyes to the spiritual.
Take for example the Jews. They are blinded by God to not see Jesus as the Messiah. That is a huge piece of information that gets missed time and time again.
They are not blinded by anything that they did, or didn’t do.
Ed
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