SSB Sunday Gathering – August 3, 2014

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Spiritual Sounding Board  – This is our place to gather and share in an open format.  Feel free to join in the discussion.

 

 

Spiritual sounding board, SSB 257774_10151219754388653_279689057_o

 

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This is your place to share your church struggles and concerns.
Let’s also use it as a time to encourage one another spiritually.
What have you found spiritually encouraging lately?
Do you have any special Bible verses to share, any YouTube songs that you have found uplifting?

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Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 

In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ. Ephesians 1:3-10

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216 comments on “SSB Sunday Gathering – August 3, 2014

  1. “You are correct, Lydia. I did insult you and I apologize. I need to count to 100 before I press ‘send’. :)”

    Thank you! I have learned from you and value your comments.

    Like

  2. “There has been a war on Christians since before the word Christian began being used. It began pointed at the Jews and after Jesus was crucifed it continued on. The Romans killed as many of them as they could get their hands on. Even Paul while still named Saul as a Jew, persecuted the Christians and sent many to prison and to their death. ”

    Brenda, I feel the need to point out that when Christianity was made legal by Constantine, Christians started “warring” for converts and conquests. Even Augustine wanted to wipe out the Donatists because they had a problem taking communion from corrupt priests!

    Christian history is a bloody evil mess until our Founders eschewed the state church paradigm and most of Europe started dismantling the state church ties after WW1. (The archives were not even opened to outside scholars until after WW2)

    . We have much to be ashamed of in drowning those who believed in adult baptism, burning heretics who disagreed with the pope or Reformed doctrines, etc. England got a new religion because a king wanted a divorce! Martin Luther wrote vile things about Jews. Christianity is responsible for tons of persecuting throughout history starting with the “universal” church.

    If you get the chance, read Martyrs Mirror. You will cry your eyes out.

    Like

  3. Lydia,

    Who are you considering our Founders?

    I have read Faithful Unto Death. I’m thinking it is a similar form of book to Martyrs Mirror. “So-called Christians” may have been involved in drowning those who believed in adult baptism and burning “so-called” heretics who disagreed with the pope and many other things, but all of that is not Christianity. That was a cult using the name Christian, an affiliate of the government and not followers of Christ. If they were Christians they would have believed in adult baptism, in following the same example shown by Jesus in his own baptism.

    People have been creating their own “churches” for various reasons for a very long time, mostly because they wanted to change God’s Word to suit themselves.

    Like

  4. Ed,
    I haven’t seen “God’s Not Dead” yet, but it is available at Redbox so I plan to rent it sometime this next week. I looked at the reviews on several sites and the majority were positive. I have a friend that is going to come over and watch it with me.

    Like

  5. “Your reaction is healthy.”

    Thank you. Yes, a similar reaction, and I understand why you were furious!

    “With that said, I like to read both sides of an issue when it comes to politics, etc.”

    Yes, me too. In fact, I love reading all sides of an issue, or shall I say, the ghetto!…that is, until the blood temp gets too high, or unless something is too personally triggering. Then a boundary is drawn. Why torture myself? 🙂

    Like

  6. “Who are you considering our Founders?”

    Our Theistic Founding Fathers. I love what Madison wrote for example:

    “Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect.”James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774 (He wrote this after finding some Baptists preachers in jail simply for publishing their religous views in Virginia)

    That Religion or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, being under the direction of reason and conviction only, not of violence or compulsion, all men are equally entitled to the full and free exercise of it according to the dictates of Conscience. James Madison, Amendments to the Virginia Declaration of Rights, June 1776

    It is the duty of every man to render to the Creator such homage and such only as he believes to be acceptable to him. This duty is precedent, both in order of time and in degree of obligation, to the claims of Civil Society. James Madison, Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, circa June 20, 1785

    The civil rights of none, shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext infringed. James Madison, proposed amendment to the Constitution, given in a speech in the House of Representatives, 1789

    Conscience is the most sacred of all property. James Madison, essay on Property, March 29, 1792

    Among the features peculiar to the political system of the United States, is the perfect equality of rights which it secures to every religious sect. James Madison, letter to Jacob de la Motta, August 1820

    We are teaching the world the great truth that Governments do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion Flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Government. James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

    “I have read Faithful Unto Death. I’m thinking it is a similar form of book to Martyrs Mirror. ”

    I had better warn you. Martyrs Mirror weighs about 15 lbs! It is as much documentation as could be found about all the religous murders over about a 500 year period by “Christians” in power.

    “So-called Christians” may have been involved in drowning those who believed in adult baptism and burning “so-called” heretics who disagreed with the pope and many other things, but all of that is not Christianity.”

    Oh, I so agree! I always wonder about those who were forced to attend and pay homage. (I have always wondered how Calvin knew who was elect in Geneva since they were mandated to attend church services or be punished. :o)

    Here is our problem. The unbelieving world hears us use the same name. I am not suggesting ideas here. It is a conumdrum that plagues me daily. And so many of our churches are corrupt with so many people supporting the charlatans and gurus. I am so glad we have blogs that are saying, This is not of Christ! You can trust us with your life.

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  7. Hey Carmen,

    I was hoping that you would watch the movie, and make up your own mind. 

    However, the reason for the movie was based on what we have been discussing in regards to “hate speech”.  The credits at the end of the movie lists numerous, and I do mean numerous colleges throughout the United States that are in litigation about religious freedom being trampled on in our colleges.

    I can’t speak for Canada, but the United States was founded upon religious freedom, and we do, by our Constitution, have freedom of speech.  And we have people that want to classify OUR freedom of speech, as hate speech.  We have atheist left wing professors that are trying to dictate to our college students what they can and cannot read, or talk about or practice in our colleges.

    That was the point of the movie, to give, how you liberals say, “awareness” to the fact that we have the left wanting to shut down our freedom.  I’ve never heard such nonsense before in my life than I have the last 15 years.  We have now, in my lifetime, “thought police”. 

    Now, if we want to discuss atheism, I have a roommate that is an atheist.  He was raised a Catholic.  We have discussions.  I told him 3 times that if he is going to slam Catholicism as his basis for being an atheist, that I will shut him down, because whatever he states about Catholicism, I will always agree with him.  Catholicism creates more atheists than any other religion in the world.  George Carlin was a famous ex-Catholic atheist.

    But, MY point is that it is in MY soul that there is something MORE in my existence BEYOND this life.  Now, you keep using the word FUNDY, or the like.  IF by the word, you mean to disparage Christianity, then you don’t really know Christianity.  But IF, by that word, you are indicating the Calvinists, then hey, I will march right along side of you.

    But if you are going to use science as your means for unbelief, then I don’t buy into the argument, because science will never see the invisible.  Not even with a microscope. 

    I laid out my reasons as to why I believe.  An atheist review of a movie is not going to move me.  As I said, I live with an atheist.  We have great discussions, and he’s a great friend.  We get along really well.  My personal problems are with people who claim to be Christians, and do not reflect Christianity.  I think you call them FUNDY’s.  I call them hypocrites.  But that does not negate out the God that promises eternal life for those who believe, or eternal death for those who REJECT.

    If I am wrong, I have nothing to lose.  If you are wrong…you have a lot to lose.  The rules state that there is no apologizing if you are wrong.  You have this life to choose.  Once you are dead, it’s too late.

    Respectfully,

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  8. Lydia,

    You had said: “Brenda, I feel the need to point out that when Christianity was made legal by Constantine, Christians started “warring” for converts and conquests. Even Augustine wanted to wipe out the Donatists because they had a problem taking communion from corrupt priests!”

    My response:

    I was never Catholic, I was never Lutheran, I was never Calvinist, so what do I have to apologize for?  I be no denomination.

    Just askin!!

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  9. Brenda,

    Ya, I saw it 4 times in the movie theaters.  I loved it.  Most Christian produced movies these days are pretty cheesy.  This one was different.  I hope you like it.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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  10. Ed, I was speaking from the pov concerning Christians being persecuted. For much of history they were persecuting each other. You are not guilty. But I can see how an unbeliever would view it. I think we should own up to it and agree it was evil and not of Christ. And stop promoting persecuting tyrants like Calvin as heros of the faith.

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  11. Carmen,

    As far as I can see, yes, there is a war on Christianity in America.

    Kids today are not even allowed to recite the Pledge of Allegiance anymore. Why? Because the word God is in the Pledge.

    Kids today are not being taught to respect the country that they were born in. There is a loss of patriatism. I SEE IT. I am not delusional, along with Michelle Bachman, etc. I SEE IT every single day. I spent many years in the US Navy. There has been a major shift in the average American’s dedication to this country. We are losing our freedom.

    This is NOT the same America that I grew up in. It is getting worse and worse each day. Yes, we do have a war against Christianity going on here.

    Ed

    Like

  12. I’m wondering, Ed. If the word ‘allah’, or ‘zeus’, was in the pledge of allegiance, would you see why it’s not right for kids to be reciting that?
    What you see as a war on christianity, I see as a pushback against christian privilege.

    Like

  13. Lydia,
    What a relief. You were speaking of the US “Founders”. By 6:00 in the evening my brain wants to shut down. I should just shut this thing off by then. I loose track of who is from where and loose ability to concentrate . I believe when our founding fathers spoke of religious freedom, they were only speaking of the belief in God alone, but there would be no wars over individual doctrine.

    Just as long as Martyr’s Mirror is in large enough type, I think I will tackle it. I recently purchased a commentary written by Matthew Henry and the type is so small I have to use a magnefying glass to read it. My bi-focals are not strong enough for that. “Faithful Unto Death” is about individual martyrs who were quite young, but continued to speak of their Faith in Christ to the last breath. I have read several books about individual Martyr’s. They are inspiring and humbling at the same time, while wondering if I would have the courage they had while being tortured the way they were. Well….so many books so little time. Books on cd would be great!!

    I have thought about the whole everyone calling themselves Christian and showing no fruit of the term quite often. My thought was that we who choose to follow Jesus and not a guru telling us how to think should go back to “The Way”.

    Like

  14. Thank you, Ed; You said:

    If I am wrong, I have nothing to lose. If you are wrong…you have a lot to lose. The rules state that there is no apologizing if you are wrong. You have this life to choose. Once you are dead, it’s too late.

    I tried throughout yesterday to say that in the right words. Apparently, God chose to use you for that. Amen. I also, thought of, Romans 14: 11-12 “For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God”. When that happens it will be too late. There is no longer an opportunity to repent. The sand in the hourglass will run out. He is the potter, we are the clay. A potter can do whatever He wants with the clay. He is totally in control.

    Like

  15. Ed,
    I agree about the cheesy part for most Christian movies. Most are so unrealistic that I don’t know why I bothered to watch the whole thing and don’t watch twice.

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  16. Brenda – re: your comment at 4:31. If you read the letter that I sent to you and Ed, that idea is addressed in it. I can’t be any more specific than that, because JA and I have an ‘agreement’. Above all else, I don’t want to p*ss her off. 🙂
    Hope you have a good day!

    Like

  17. Carmen,
    I read it. I don’t agree with it. The writer is under the delusion that he can make the rules. Praise God, He, the Great I AM, is in control. If he thinks that he can say oops, I was wrong when he stands before God and that will be ok that is a sad mistake. When the book is opened and his name is not in it GOD WILL SAY, “depart from me, I never knew you.” Today is the day of salvation!!

    I hope you have a good day, also. I have prayed for you this morning.

    If the word ‘allah’, or ‘zeus’, was in the pledge of allegiance, would you see why it’s not right for kids to be reciting that?

    Carmen the founders of America would not have done this. Our founders were completely about the One, True, Living God. Any other would have been and is idolatry.

    Like

  18. The Pledge of Allegiance has nothing to do with the Founding Fathers. It was written by Christian socialist and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy in 1892 and published in a magazine for youth commemorating Columbus’s discovery of America. The words “under God” were not added until 1954.

    Like

  19. Marsha,
    Thank you for the history lesson. We studied the rules of how the flag was to be handled, but I was in 5th grade, that was a very long time ago. The words “under God” shouldn’t have been an oversite for that long in the pledge especially being written by a Baptist minister. I would have thought that there would have been some type of pledge created when the flag was made. I suppose Betsy Ross was too busy sewing.

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  20. Brenda, I hear ya about type. I was trying to read a tracking number on a UPS receipt yesterday and had to have my young’en read it to me. Frustrating!

    Bearing good Fruit is no longer fashionable. It has been replaced with “correct doctrine” and the mantra, “sinners, sin”. It is scary.

    Like

  21. It is not just small type that is problematic for me these days. I had to buy an Ott light (it mimics bright sunlight) to cross stitch after I discovered that I had accidentally substituted ecru thread for white in the middle of stitching a white section the night before. I couldn’t see the difference until morning.

    Like

  22. Lydia,

    Bearing good Fruit is no longer fashionable. It has been replaced with “correct doctrine” and the mantra, “sinners, sin”. It is scary.

    I’m not even going to go there and it is scary. Doctrine is a matter of interpretation, the Gospel is where it’s at.

    Like

  23. Good morning Brenda – All

    I hope you’re still interested? I have more about those qualifications for pastor/leaders, bullies, who like to quote Heb 13:17, for themselves. “Obey your leaders, and Submit to them…” and I’m your “leader.”

    Heb 13:17, the way it’s “Used to Abuse,” to “Control and Manipulate,” is a pet peeve. And I love to pet my peeves. 😉

    1 – The First Qualifcation…
    For “Who” qualifies to be Obeyed, Submitted to…
    Is from Heb 13:17. – “for *they* are keeping watch over your souls.”

    If *They,* pastor/leader/reverends, are NOT watching for your soul…
    Are WE, His Sheep, His sons, required to “Obey and Submit” to them?
    NOT anymore – Thank you Jesus… 😉
    ———

    2 – The Second Qualifcation….
    For “Who” qualifies to be Obeyed, Submitted to…
    Became a list of 10 qualifcations for those who claim Heb 13:17.

    ARE these wanna-be pastor/leader/elders “who” teach, demand…
    WE, His Sheep, His Disciples, “Obey and Submit” to them…
    Living Examples of…

    1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
    2 – Lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
    3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
    4 – Submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
    5 – Prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
    6 – By love “Serve one another?” Gal 5:13 KJV
    7 – Laying down their lives for the brethren? 1 John 3:16 KJV
    8 – NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their glory? Jn 7:18 KJV
    9 – NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43. KJV
    10 – Being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
    10 – Humility – a modest, or low opinion of ones own importance.

    Are WE, His Sheep, His Bride, required to “Obey and Submit”…
    To a pastor/leader/reverend who does NOT Submit one to another?
    NOT any more – Thank you Jesus… 😉

    Are WE, His Sheep, His sons, required to “Obey and Submit”…
    To a pastor/leader who “Lords it over,” or “Exercises Authority?
    NOT any more – Thank you Jesus… 😉

    Like

  24. Brenda

    3 – The Third Qualifcation…
    For “Who” qualifies to be Obeyed, Submitted to…
    Became a list of 17 qualifcations given by Paul, for apointing elder/overseers.

    If, pastors/elders/overseers, Do NOT meet those tuff qualifcations…
    Are WE, His Ekklesia, His Body, required to “Obey and Submit” to them?
    NOT anymore – Thank you Jesus… 😉

    And – I’ve noticed those are some tuff Qualifications Paul gives… 😉

    Today, I’ve noticed, most congregations looking to hire a pastor/elder/overseer, and most who desire to be a pastor/elder/overseer tend to “Ignore” or “Twist” the Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-7, and Titus 1:5-9. And today WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Disciples, can experience “many” pastor/elder/overseers who do NOT qualify according to Paul’s qualifications.

    For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God…
    1 – Must Be **Blameless** — unrebukeable, without fault.
    2 – husband of one wife — married, male.
    3 – rules well his own house — have an obedient family and children.
    4 – not greedy of filthy lucre — Not greedy for money.
    5 – vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
    6 – sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
    7 – of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.
    8 – no striker — not quarrelsome, contentious.
    9 – not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
    10 – not self willed — not self pleasing, not arrogant.
    11 – not soon angry — not prone to anger.
    12 – temperate — having power over, restraining.
    13 – **holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
    14 – **just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.

    And, The pastor/elder/overseers children must qualify also…
    “having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly”

    15 – faithful — believing, one who trusts in God’s promises.
    16 – not accused of riot — Strongs – asotia — unsavedness.
    ………an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
    17 – unruly — disobedient.

    Hmmm? Know any pastor/elder/overseers who have teenagers?
    That alone seems to dis-qualify a whole bunch… 😉

    If a pastor/overseers children DO NOT Qualify?
    Are WE, His Sheep, His Bride, required to, “Obey and Submit” to them? 😉
    NOT any more – Thank You Jesus… 😉

    Know many elder/overseers who are – “modest, unassuming, reserved?”
    “not quarrelsome, contentious?” “abstaining from fighting?”
    These three certainly disqualified me from being an elder/overseer. 😉

    If a pastor/overseer is NOT “modest, unassuming, reserved?”
    Are WE, His Sheep, His Bride, required to, “Obey and Submit” to them? 😉
    NOT any more – Thank You Jesus… 😉

    Like

  25. Marsha,
    I was always very uncomfortable as a child pledging allegiance to a flag. It felt like idolatry to me.

    I can understand your point. Even though our flag stands for freedom (that is dwendling day by day) and all who died for that freedom, I don’t want to put anything above God. The church I attend just lost several members because the decision was made not to have the flag hanging in the sanctuary. It didn’t bother me that no flag was there. It is a symbol of country, I go there to worship God.

    I have the problem with colors, black and navy especially. I write what color somethings are on the labels of clothing. In the morning I can’t tell the difference, but as the day goes on I can see it and have had some pretty peculiar looking combos before I started marking things. I hope you weren’t too far into your project before you noticed. I can’t hand sew anymore. Tremors keep the needle in my fingers more than in the cloth.

    Like

  26. Brenda

    Here is a closer look at three qualifications for elder/overseer from Titus.
    1 – For a bishop (overseer) “Must Be” *Blameless.* 2 – Just. 3 – Holy.

    Titus 1:5-8 KJV
    5 …ordain elders in every city…
    6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
    having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
    7 For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
    not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
    8 a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;

    1 – That *must be* is the same Greek word. You *must be* born again. Jn 3:7
    *Must Be* – Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
    *Must Be* – Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
    Seems to be a small word but very important. Yes?

    1 – Blameless
    Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
    Blameless, Thayers – cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
    Blameless, Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.

    2 – Just
    Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
    Thayers – righteous, observing divine laws, innocent, faultless, guiltless.

    3 – Holy
    Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
    Thayers – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
    religiously observing every moral obligation.

    Now that’s three tough qualifications for pastor/elder/overseers. Yes?

    Are WE, His Kings and Priests, His Ambassadors, His Kids….
    Required to *Obey and Submit* to someone who does NOT Qualify?
    To a pastor/leader who is NOT… 1 – Blameless? 2 – Just? 3 – Holy?
    NOT any more – Thank You Jesus… 😉

    How many pastor/elder/overseers today, who honestly examine themselves, seriously considering these three qualifications can see themselves as Blameless, Just and Holy, innocent, without fault, above reproach, undefiled by sin, and thus qualify to be a pastor/elder/overseer? And, if they can see themself as *blameless?* Is that pride? And no longer without fault? 😉

    Which Qualifications, are WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, allowed to Ignore?
    Which Qualifications are NOT important?

    If WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Sheep, His Kings and Priests, His Body…
    Take seriously the many tough Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9…

    The number of Biblically Qualified, pastor/elder/overseers, is quite small.
    😉

    I recommend for WE, His Kids, to *Obey and Submit” to…

    The “ONE” Leader – The “ONE” Shepherd…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Like

  27. a:hover { color: red; } a { text-decoration: none; color: #0088cc; }

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    CARMEN, this nation was not founded on the belief of zues, or other gods, or no god at all. It was founded on the belief of the Christian God. Freedom from the bondage of the church of England. Free to worship that God based on our own conscience. See our Declaration of independence. Lets not change the subject to zeus that is not the subject of that declaration.– Original Message –From: comment-reply@wordpress.comSent: 08/06/2014 03:47 amTo: chapmaned24@yahoo.comSubject: [New comment] SSB Sunday Gathering – August 3, 2014 carmen commented: “I’m wondering, Ed. If the word ‘allah’, or ‘zeus’, was in the pledge of allegiance, would you see why it’s not right for kids to be reciting that?
    What you see as a war on christianity, I see as a pushback against christian privilege.”

    Like

  28. Ed, you and Brenda are intentionally missing my point – but I understand. Others reading this thread won’t, however. That’s fine.

    Like

  29. a:hover { color: red; } a { text-decoration: none; color: #0088cc; }

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    BRENDA, amen about giving account to God. Typing by phone at work. Be back tonight.– Original Message –From: comment-reply@wordpress.comSent: 08/06/2014 04:31 amTo: chapmaned24@yahoo.comSubject: [New comment] SSB Sunday Gathering – August 3, 2014 Brenda R commented: “Thank you, Ed; You said:

    If I am wrong, I have nothing to lose. If you are wrong…you have a lot to lose. The rules state that there is no apologizing if you are wrong. You have this life to choose. Once you are dead, it’s too late.

    I tried ”

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  30. a:hover { color: red; } a { text-decoration: none; color: #0088cc; }

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    MARSHA, not getting what your point is. I salute our flag.– Original Message –From: comment-reply@wordpress.comSent: 08/06/2014 05:39 amTo: chapmaned24@yahoo.comSubject: [New comment] SSB Sunday Gathering – August 3, 2014 Marsha commented: “The Pledge of Allegiance has nothing to do with the Founding Fathers. It was written by Christian socialist and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy in 1892 and published in a magazine for youth commemorating Columbus’s discovery of America. The words “unde”

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  31. Carmen,
    I don’t go out of my way to intentionally miss an individuals point. I get what you were saying, it is just a non issue for me. This country was not founded and dedicated to any idol god. It was with a strong passion to worship the Living God without tyranny that made this country great.

    I have even been known to change my mind about certain issues over time, but I will never renounce my faith in God or devalue the religious freedom in Him this country was founded on. I do not take these things lightly.

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  32. Carmen, Some of the Founders like Adams and Jefferson were big into Locke. They were men of the enligtenment, law as the authority and reason. Many want to paint the enlightenment as anti God. That is really a short sighted understanding. I believe God loves progress and reason. Some went a different route with it but that is understandable coming out of a rigid church state like France.

    They were interested in religious freedom even if the concept not exactly worked out in foundationally. The Continental Congress had Episcopalians, Congregationalist, Quakers and much more. Not long before that the Puritans were burning Quakers at the stake! But the focus was not on whose god was right. Frankly, less than a hundred years before those disparate sects could not have been in a room together.

    They most likely had visions of their ancestors the Puritans and where that led. The last vestiges of the evils of Puritanism were playing out in those days. Many of their descendents in the North East had turned Congregationalist or Unitarian.

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  33. Hi Amos,
    Always interested.

    Are WE, His Sheep, His Bride, required to “Obey and Submit”…
    To a pastor/leader/reverend who does NOT Submit one to another?
    NOT any more – Thank you Jesus… 😉

    I don’t believe we ever were required to submit to such a person, not should they be in leadership. We must be careful that the qualifications of such esteemed positions are met and continue to be met.

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    CARMEN, no i got your point. But since it was not based on my point, i steared it back to my point. I wont budge. Sorry.– Original Message –From: comment-reply@wordpress.comSent: 08/06/2014 09:15 amTo: chapmaned24@yahoo.comSubject: [New comment] SSB Sunday Gathering – August 3, 2014 carmen commented: “Ed, you and Brenda are intentionally missing my point – but I understand. Others reading this thread won’t, however. That’s fine.”

    Like

  35. Amos,
    Know many elder/overseers who are – “modest, unassuming, reserved?”
    “not quarrelsome, contentious?” “abstaining from fighting?”

    These things describe the elders of my church pretty well. There kids are all well behaved or are grown and have their own ministries of one form or another. There is not ever going to be a man, woman or child that is perfect however. The only one that fit that bill died on a cross for my sins. I look at these things as guidelines.

    The whole husband of one wife thing. I don’t think it is manditory for a man to be married to be in leadership. Paul was never married. If a leaders wife dies, would we kick him out of his position. I don’t think so. I think he should not be married to more than one at a time.

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  36. Hi There again, Amos,

    I recommend for WE, His Kids, to *Obey and Submit” to…

    The “ONE” Leader – The “ONE” Shepherd…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

    Agree completely. But, I do believe that we can get counsel from GOOD leaders, not the kind that try to make you feel like you’re lower than a snakes belly. I have watched the men who are called elders in my church. They are quiet, helpful, and more than willing to answer questions without accusation.

    Paul and Peter were leaders in the early church. They gave support and guidance to the flock if they were heading in the wrong direction. Thus all of the letters written by Paul to the church. People looked up to them. Were they perfect? Absolutely NOT. I know you know both of their stories upside down and sideways so I won’t waste my keystrokes on that.

    For me, I want to be with other people who believe as I do. Gain strength from them and help those who are in need. I find that in my church. I do not believe that we are to blindly obey and submit to church leadership or anyone else for that matter. The only one that I obey and submit to is Christ. He is the only one deserving of that. If leaders tell me something that sounds the least bit fishy, I open my mouth and start asking questions. If I don’t get the right answers I’ll be a lookin’ for another church.

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  37. It’s ironic that this right-wing conservative paper would be talking about curtailing free speech eh, Lydia? I was taught in university to always look for bias. You know, that ‘thinking for yourself’ business?

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  38. I would not expect to find it reported in a liberal paper, Carmen. Why not check the facts of the piece out. The personalities mentioned and their quotes?

    I was taught a lot of bias at University. I am glad I had parents that taught me to question everything.

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  39. Marsha,

    You had said:
    “The Pledge of Allegiance has nothing to do with the Founding Fathers. It was written by Christian socialist and Baptist minister Francis Bellamy in 1892 and published in a magazine for youth commemorating Columbus’s discovery of America. The words “under God” were not added until 1954.”

    My response:
    What you said has been troubling me all day long. It’s eating at me like you wouldn’t believe. I’ve got smoke coming out of my ears.

    To me, obviously, Francis Bellamy has more patriotism than those who take this country for granted. Besides, I know about when “under God” was added, and it is appropriate. Did you see the video that I posted above? Red Skelton actually said, “since I was a small boy, two states have been added, and two words added, under God. Wouldn’t it be a pity if someone said that was a prayer, and that would be eliminated from schools, too?”

    You see, I am a form United States Navy member. I was for many years. I have been literally around the world, and I have been to many many many countries and I have seen many things throughout the world. THERE IS NO PLACE LIKE HOME.

    I was stationed in Japan on the USS Cochrane DDG-21, USS Nimitz CVN 68, USS Enterprise, and the USS John C Stennis. I was shore duty at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, and at Bangor Naval Base in Kitsap County.

    And…I was raised to say the Pledge of Allegiance. I have Love of Country in my bones. I think that every American should salute the flag, and say the pledge.

    I have absolutely no idea when, where, why and how anyone would even consider the flag an idol. Where did that kind of thinking come from? Sounds like a Jehovah’s Witness.

    Let me ask something here. Why do we have communion? Jesus said to do this in REMEMBRANCE of him.

    Also,
    Romans 13:7
    Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

    When WE salute the flag, it is to give remembrance and honor to those who fought and died to secure our freedom. How do you get idol out of that?

    We honor God, and we honor those who died for our freedom.

    There was a great country and western song a couple of years ago. It was called “Soldiers and Jesus”. In the lyrics, there are 2 people who have died for me:

    Soldiers and Jesus. Honor and respect and remembrance is what that flag is all about. I pledge my allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.

    That means something to me, DEEP in my heart and soul. It may just be a nursery rhyme by some Baptist preacher to some, but that Baptist preacher got it. Some in today’s society just don’t get it. I am fuming that Americans flip their nose at that flag. NO RESPECT. Well, if they don’t like what that flag stands for…why won’t they leave?

    Ed

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  40. I don’t understand why you have been fuming. Isn’t that an accurate account of the origin of the Pledge of Allegiance? Brenda thought it was created by the Founding Fathers so I posted about its history.

    Or are you concerned about my unease as a child? Wasn’t I entitled to my own feelings? I had read in the Bible, which I started reading at a very early age, about worshiping a golden calf and here I had to pledge allegiance to a flag. A thing. I worried about it. Is that a problem for you?

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  41. Ed, Amen. As one veteran to another, I salute you. I still can’t say the pledge or sing the National Anthem without tears.

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  42. Marsha, we don’t idolize the flag and worship it as our deity. They made the golden calf with their own hands and proclaimed that to be their deity, and crediting the calf as the one who led them out of Egypt instead of God.

    Like

  43. Marsha,

    You had said:
    “Or are you concerned about my unease as a child? Wasn’t I entitled to my own feelings? I had read in the Bible, which I started reading at a very early age, about worshiping a golden calf and here I had to pledge allegiance to a flag. A thing. I worried about it. Is that a problem for you?”

    My response:
    Actually, yes, it is a problem for me. I don’t understand how you can equate a golden calf with a flag of the United States of America. Who put that idea in your head?

    But, you mentioned about the “Under God” being inserted. If you would have watched the video that I provided, it clearly said that anyway.

    But, why do I have a problem? Because it sounds to me that no one told you WHY to pledge allegiance to the flag. It doesn’t seem to me that anyone taught you about patriotism, that you SHOULD have a love of country, that you SHOULD have respect for the flag, because it stands for something, because it means something. Veterans from WW1 and WW2 salutes that flag. People are not being taught about respecting the country, because they are not being taught the symbolism of the meaning of the flag. It flabbergasts me. So yes, I have a problem with that.

    Ed

    Like

  44. Waitingforthetrumet2,

    I salute you as well!!!!

    As you know in base movie theaters, before the movie begins, we all have to stand and watch a video of the Star Spangled Banner. Before I got out, the video was of Whitney Houston singing it from the Superbowl. I always cried at her singing it. And I went to the Base movie theater a lot. The Best.

    Ed

    Like

  45. One of the last songs I heard while still in the Air Force was Lee Greenwood’s Proud To Be An American. I choke up everytime.

    Like

  46. Lee Greenwood came on a USO tour to the Philippines when we lived there. This was a time when we were under treat conditions. We had base restrictions and curfew restrictions. I’ve never cried so hard. We all knew the price of freedom because 10 servicemen had been killed in the Philippines by communist insurgents during our tour. I lose it when I hear Proud to be an American and it takes me back to that moment.

    Ed, nobody can sing that like Whitney. We’ve been having Whitney wannabes ever since.

    Like

  47. Ummmm I seem to be having difficulty with posting it using this gosh durn tablet of mine. Ed, would you be so kind?

    Like

  48. Nobody put that idea in my head, Ed. It was my own thought. I explained this to you; I did not want to put anything before God and I had to place my hand over my heart and pledge allegiance to the flag AND the republic, not just the republic, and the flag is an object. I was a child who attended church and Sunday School and read the Bible and I wanted to get things right.

    I am sixty-one years old now so for you to be angry all day about what I thought over half a century ago just seems a little odd to me. Don’t you urge people to read the Bible for themselves and try to understand it for themselves? You might try appreciating that I was making that effort as a young child instead of being angry at her.

    I can’t click on your link because it is all messed up on the page (I get HTML instead), at least it is on my cell phone, and in any case I believe I provided the history before your post.

    Why do you think I wasn’t patriotic, then or now? Or that I have no respect for veterans. I have always been very proud of my father’s service in France and Germany during World War II.

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  49. Marsha,

    You are only 11 years older than me. Now, you said: “Don’t you urge people to read the Bible for themselves and try to understand it for themselves? ”

    No, I don’t urge a LITTLE CHILD to read the bible for themselves and try to understand it for themselves. NO. NO. NO.

    I urge adults to do that. I urge adults to teach their children the difference between a golden calf and a national flag.

    Ed

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  50. JA and Marsha,

    OK, let me sleep on it, and get over it. But I will say this, Marsha, that many people are actually taught what you thought as a child. Even today. And that worries me. The first people I ever heard that from was about the Jehovah’s Witnesses. They think that my service in the US Navy was demonic, because it is man’s government, not God’s Kingdom. So, I get a bit worked up about this topic. I get emotional on this topic. As a patriot, it breaks my heart that this is what people are taught about America. Even our own president has no respect for our country…in my humble opinion.

    Ed

    Like

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