Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Coy’s Story of Moral Corruption Leads Calvary Chapel Members to Share Their Personal Stories

278 thoughts on “Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Coy’s Story of Moral Corruption Leads Calvary Chapel Members to Share Their Personal Stories”

1. Ed
   I recognize and understand your thought process very well.
   You have the “mind of Paul.” Even though you are not giving chapter and verse references, I recognize the language and ideas in this post – they are almost entirely from Paul, either quoting or paraphrasing or imitating Paul’s thought patterns.

   I am blessed that I have been walking with Jesus for 21 years, got a Masters Degree from Dallas Theological Seminary, and worked briefly on pastoral staff in two churches. I should know something about the Bible by this time. I would be a carnal Christian if I didn’t, and it would be false humility to say I don’t.

   Some other people reading your last post who are younger in the faith might be fooled into thinking that you are simply speaking the Word of God without putting in Biblical references, but I know better. You are brainwashed by Paul’s writings, and you are simply pushing Paul’s false teachings, and ignoring the teachings of Jesus.

   If you have the courage to back up your specific points with specific verses of Scripture, I am willing to dialogue with you. (If you do that with the last post, it will be exposed that it’s all about Paul.)

   No, “Love fulfills all of the law” is Paul’s false teaching in Romans 13 & Galatians 5.
   Jesus taught about
   the First and Greatest Most Important Commandment to Love God, and
   the Second to Love People,
   in Matthew 22 & Mark 12. No it isn’t the same thing and it doesn’t “harmonize.” Jesus is right. Paul was wrong. We don’t need Paul to improve on the teachings of Jesus, we can listen to Jesus ourselves – and obey Jesus, not Paul.

   Blessings,
   Matthew

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2. Matthew Perri,

   You have a serious problem with Paul.  I have no idea where you get your hatred of Paul from, but I might suggest an attitude check, buddy.

   According to Acts, Paul is not a “self proclaimed” Apostle.  God ordained him to be the Apostle of the Gentiles.  Peter is the Apostle of the Jews.

   And there was a reason.  Paul was a ROMAN “citizen”.  He was a Jew that was a natural born citizen of a Gentile Nation.  All of the rest of the Apostles are all Israeli born citizens. 

   But, since you have a major problem with the Apostle Paul, I would suggest that you do a bunch more research in what Paul said.

   I believe the Apostle Paul, and I have studied Paul pretty well.  He does not preach against God, as you claim.

   If you have a problem with Paul, don’t be a Christian.  Become a Jew, or follow another god, or no god at all.  But don’t rain on our parade, please.

   Ed

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3. Matthew Perri,

   I mention the book of Ester for a reason. I gave the reason. Every book in the Bible has a purpose. We follow the God of the Jews, and it is in their “The Law and The Prophets and The Writings”

   And since it is, we need to read, study, and understand it.

   A couple of VERY IMPORTANT things is in Ester. One, the Jewish National Holiday of Purim (And since Jesus is Jewish, he would have celebrated each and every Jewish Holiday), and, the word “SEAL”, which is used in the NT writings. We are sealed with the Holy Spirit. Well, what does SEAL represent? It is a PROMISE that what God states, that nothing can change it. That is what the Book of Ester teaches.

   I am surprised that you seem to leave out the Jewish portion of things. You only seem to want to concentrate on LAW.

   Again, why did Abraham not have the law. He was before Paul.

   Ed

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4. Ed
   In these last 2 posts you didn’t quote a single verse of Scripture either.

   You wrote, QUOTE:
   “According to Acts, Paul is not a “self proclaimed” Apostle. God ordained him to be the Apostle of the Gentiles. Peter is the Apostle of the Jews.”

   Of course you didn’t quote any Scripture, because this is fiction.
   There are only 12 Apostles, and Matthias is the 12th. The words and actions of Jesus and all the 12 qualified, appointed, and recognized Apostles are unanimous on this.

   Other than Paul writing about himself, no one anywhere in the New Testament ever even referred to Paul individually as an Apostle. If you want to discuss Acts 14, we will also need to discuss the other portions of Acts, including 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15.

   There is no “Apostle to the Gentiles.” This is a title that Paul made up for himself, to usurp authority and promote himself, like Hitler calling himself The Fuhrer. The Apostle Peter, as the head of all the Apostles, went to both Gentiles and Jews. You can read about it in
   Acts 10,
   Acts 11,
   Acts 15:7-11
   15:13-21

   Regarding Esther, I don’t “leave out the Jewish portion of things.” Rather, I see the Hebrew Scriptures in 3 categories the way Jesus did, in 3 descending levels of authority – The Law, The Prophets, The Writings.

   Esther is part of the Writings, the 3rd lowest level, and God is never mentioned even once anywhere in the Book. Connecting Esther with the Holy Spirit is simply creative writing on your part.

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5. Matthew,

   You said:
   “In these last 2 posts you didn’t quote a single verse of Scripture either.

   You wrote, QUOTE:
   “According to Acts, Paul is not a “self proclaimed” Apostle. God ordained him to be the Apostle of the Gentiles. Peter is the Apostle of the Jews.”

   Of course you didn’t quote any Scripture, because this is fiction.”

   My response:

   It is not my job to quote scripture. It is my job to tell you how I see it. You have a bible, you can read. I don’t read for people, and I don’t study for people. I read and study for me, not you. You are supposed to know this stuff yourself. And, I am not the only one that comes to my conclusions. But you are way out there in left field.

   If you think that words written in the Bible are false, then the conclusion is, you are not a Christian. This is a Jewish book, written by Jews. Do you have a problem with Jews? Or just a Jewish Paul? Or just Paul? Or is it Saul? Where did your teachings originate that it is fiction? Who told you? Why do you believe them?

   I ask because I am curious. I think I will move on to studying them, just as I have done with many other goofy belief systems.

   You did accuse me of being from the synagogue of Satan, and if I preach what Paul said, and so does everyone else, are they likewise from the same synagogue as I?

   In other words, What church is NOT the synagogue of Satan in your opinion? In other words, what church do you go to, and what do they preach? Or do you even go to church? Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ? If so, what does that mean?

   Acts 23:11
   And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

   Acts 9:10-16
   10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.

   11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

   12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

   13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:

   14 And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.

   15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

   16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake.

   And if you think that there were only 12 Apostles:

   Acts 14:14
   Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out,

   Barnabas was an Apostle. So was James, the Lords Brother.

   Galatians 1:19
   But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother.

   Oh, you have so much to learn, but you just refuse to sit down and shut up and listen. You have your conclusion that it’s all fiction.

   I refuse to quote scripture to you, as you should already know scripture. It’s supposed to ALREADY be in your mind, and in your heart. It is mine. Therefore, look in your own bible from here on out.

   Galatians 2:8
   (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:)

   Ed

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6. Matthew,

   The book of Ester has importance, and you refuse to see it. The whole Bible is a connect the dots. If you want to know what Seal is, you look at it’s original usage. My goodness. I cannot believe what I am dealing with, with you.

   A Kings seal (Jesus is King, right?) cannot be broken under any circumstance. So your claim that it never mentions God is a strange claim, since God is King.

   Going on your premise about Ester:

   Jesus called Jonah a prophet. Prophets prophesy about Jesus.

   After Jesus rose from the dead, he revealed himself in ALL of the Law and the Prophets.

   Jonah is a prophet. Did Jonah prophecy about a Messiah that would die and go to the heart of the earth?

   To unbelievers, they will say, “No, he prophesied that Nineveh would be destroyed if they didn’t repent, and Jonah was a bad man, because he didn’t want to go to Nineveh. That has nothing to do with a Messiah. Jesus is not mentioned.”

   But I say otherwise.

   That is my example of you telling me that Ester has nothing to do with what I said.

   Ed

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7. Ed,
   Regarding Paul’s supposed “Apostleship”, I wrote:
   “Other than Paul writing about himself, no one anywhere in the New Testament ever even referred to Paul individually as an Apostle. If you want to discuss Acts 14, we will also need to discuss the other portions of Acts, including 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15.”

   Your response was;
   You trotted out Acts 14, and Paul writing about himself.

   You just proved my point is correct. Other than Paul’s testimony about himself, you have nothing at all on which to base your claim about Paul being an apostle except Acts 14 out of context, while ignoring Acts 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15.

   Luke, who was Paul’s Gentile travelling companion, made passing editorial comments about “the apostles, Barnabas and Paul” together, in that order, plural “apostles” not “apostle” in Acts 14, regarding a short-term mission trip that takes up Acts 13 & 14. That’s it.

   Even Luke went way of out his way to make it clear in Acts 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15 that Paul was never appointed or recognized individually as an apostle by anyone. And there are only 12 Apostles, not 13. Luke was not an apostle, and he had no authority to appoint Paul an apostle or recognize him as an apostle, and technically speaking he didn’t. And Luke never quoted anyone else ever saying that Paul was an apostle.

   You have not refuted the facts I’ve presented, so thank you for indirectly confirming my point. Among numerous other texts, you can see Revelation 21:14.

   All real Christians were called by Jesus in various ways, we are all to be witnesses, and we are all chosen instruments. But there are only 12 Apostles, according to Jesus and the Original Apostles, and Matthias is the 12th. They know better what an Apostle is than Paul.

   No, Barnabas was NOT an Apostle, and neither was James, the Lords Brother, according to Jesus and the Original Apostles. You are echoing Paul’s opinion, and Paul was wrong. No one except Paul ever identified any follower of Jesus individually as an apostle who was not among the 11 plus Matthias. No one, anywhere in the New Testament. If you think I’m wrong, then please open your Bible and quote chapter and verse to show me where. (I won’t hold my breath, because it isn’t there – so I will interpret your silence as agreement that what I’m saying is true.)

   I don’t blame you personally for the opinions you’ve been presenting. I understand them. I was brainwashed that way too. But they are wrong, and they will not stand up in a discussion like this with an open Bible, if people are willing to think, and open their Bible, and ask God to reveal the truth.

   Blessings in the name of Jesus
   Matthew

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8. Matthew,

   What you didn’t discuss is what I laid out.  Yes I mentioned Acts 14, but you didn’t address Galatians (that Paul wrote), you didn’t address Acts 23.  You didn’t mention 2 additional apostles, all if it that Luke wrote about, not Paul, i.e. James, the brother of the Lord, and Barnabas…BOTH are apostles.  That would be a total of 15, including Paul, not 12 as you state.

   Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

   Luke wrote that.  Rome is where Gentiles are. 

   You didn’t mention where you got your teaching from, you didn’t mention where you go to church, you didn’t mention what church is NOT the synagogue of Satan, and much more.

   You didn’t mention why you have a problem with Paul, with the exception of making a false claim that he is self appointed when scripture states otherwise.

   Even Peter mentions Paul:

   2 Peter 3:15-16

   15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

   Peter acknowledges Paul in that people are to read them and learn them, and that wisdom was given to him, and that Paul had written to them.

   But, you not only have a problem with Paul, you have a problem with John…you know, 1 John!!  That same John wrote Revelation, so if you have a problem with 1 John, you have a problem with Revelation.

   And since you have a problem with the whole new test, the be gone, before a house falls on you!!  You have no power here.  You will never get them ruby slippers.

   Ed

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9. Matthew,

   Here is just one who agrees with ME in regards to James, the brother of Jesus being the Apostle that Paul talks about, and that same James is the Author of the book of James:

   http://www.biblestudies.net/whowrotejames.html

   You have a lot of research to do, buddy!

   Ed

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10. Ed
    Thanks for confirming my point again, since you could not refute it from Scripture.

    Other than Paul writing about himself, no one anywhere in the New Testament ever even referred to Paul individually as an Apostle even once.
    No one in the world has refuted this fact about the text of the Bible, and you have not either.

    There are only 12 Apostles, and Matthias is the 12th, according to Jesus and the Original Apostles.
    Blessings

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11. Matthew, I did refute it.  You just prefer not to listen.  So, be gone.  Nothing for you here!

    James, the brother of Jesus is an apostle.  So is Barnabas.  I referenced the verses.  You just refuse to listen, and hear, lest you be saved.

    Again, you never addressed any of my questions to you, such as

    1.  What church do you belong to? 2.  What church is NOT the synagogue of Satan?

    You did not address what Peter said about Paul’s epistles, which he himself acknowledges.

    Why won’t you acknowledge Paul’s epistles since Peter does?  You wrest with them to your own destruction, according to Peter.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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12. Matthew Perri,

    I clicked on your name, and it brought me to a blog, which states the following:

    “Thursday, August 13, 2009
    Focus on the good

    When we look at the lives of “great men”, like the Apostle Paul or Martin Luther King, we need to carefully examine their lives in light of …”

    Funny how the word Apostle is used before the word Paul in the write up from 2009. Obviously, whoever wrote the article contradicts you, for it also states:

    “Yes, Paul was a great man, anointed by God as an apostle to the Gentiles…”

    So, I think you need to change your blog link on your name, huh?

    Ed

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13. Ed
    Have you learned anything new in the last 5 years? Or do you already know everything?

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14. You guys both need to dial it back a bit. Please debate issues not persons.

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15. Matthew,

    You asked: ” Have you learned anything new in the last 5 years? Or do you already know everything?”

    Yes.  I have learned that I know more about the Bible than most pastors do.  I have learned that the Calvinism is the most abusive “religion” in the whole world. Ed

    ________________________________

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16. The term apostle refers to a person to whom Jesus, after the resurrection, appeared, and to whom he commissioned to go and tell the Gospel. And as the Bible says over 500 people saw him after the resurrection and he gave them the Great Commission, there were many more than 12. The first Apostle was Mary Magdalene, commissioned on the day of the resurrection, to go and tell his disciples, the Gospel, the Good News of the resurrection. And Junia is described as an Apostle (though there was once a conspiracy to do a sex change on her, and make her Junias).

    You guys need to do some really serious, open-minded (not blinded by your doctrine) study of the New Testament, preferably using multiple translations and a good Greek-English dictionary (not Strong’s concordance, either).

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17. An Attorney,

    I agree with you to a point.  I don’t, however, think that a Greek/English dictionary is even warranted in this case.  Why?  Because what I laid out spells it out with the word “Apostle”, in regards to James, the Lord’s Brother, and Barnabas.  That, without a concordance, concludes it for me.

    In regards to the women who first saw Jesus after he rose from the dead, this is a first that I am hearing of that. 

    One person was chosen to replace Judas, bringing 11 back to 12.  That much I do know.

    Acts 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    The word 11 is in that verse, which shows that the women were not included in that count.  11 became 12 based on that verse.  Please make note, An Attorney, that there was a count, and the women were not counted. 

    This was after the resurrection of Jesus, and this was after Jesus was taken up in a cloud, which also means that this was after he was seen all of those days by the 500 people. If the women were counted, then it should have been, based on your input, at least 14.

    And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

    Eleven plus one is twelve.

    Ed

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18. Yes, but others are referred to as apostles in other places in scripture. And investigation into the sudden change in terminology in Acts from the four Gospels is an issue to be considered. The 12 were the called disciples, of which there are two different lists in the Gospels! So one needs to carefully investigate before stating absolutely that there were only 12. Junia is an example.

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19. An Attorney,

    When you dissect the gospels, the Apostles were not addressed as disciples after Jesus declared them to be Apostles.

    They were either addressed by name, or Apostle so and so, or “the twelve”.  After Judas was passed away, they were known as “the eleven”.

    Jesus had many disciples above the twelve.  At one point, he sent out 72 of them.

    In addition, in our conversations on the blog, I use biblegateway.com, although I have done extensive study on topics that I discuss long ago with a hard copy book, the KJV and the NIVr.

    In biblegateway.com, I can look for key words and phrases, very easily in a multiple of translations.

    In regards to the word “Apostle”, the only two that come up beyond the 12 are Paul, James (The Lord’s Brother), and Barnabas.

    I am not arguing that there were others beyond that.  I can only go based on what I can prove in scripture, no matter what translation, and/or what Greek dictionary that you recommend.  

    As was stated in the movie, “A Few Good Men”, Tom Cruise stated “It doesn’t matter what I believe, it only matters what I can prove.”

    You are an attorney.  You know that.  I’m wondering if you are a defense attorney, whose job it is to cast doubt to the jurors? 

    Just kidding, don’t take that personal.  But seriously, what I can prove is a total of 15, no more than that.

    Ed

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20. A fair and balanced approach to the question of apostles and Junia can be found at: http://godswordtowomen.org/juniapreato.htm. There were many apostles and Junia, a female was great among them.

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21. The SBC house organ, Baptist Press, has no, zero, coverage of the Morales trial or the fallout at SGM or TGC.

    There is also zero coverage about the court cases involving Caner, which he lost by summary judgment (meaning no jury could ever agree with his claim!) with language by the federal judges that suggest that Caner had lied.

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22. I used to know a young woman who was a member of this church. She talked about Bob Coy like he was God Himself. She was young, cute, and very impressionable, so I hope she was not one of his conquests. She did work at Hooters, so she wasn’t the brightest bulb on the tree, either.

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23. An Attorney,

    I’m up quite early this morning!!  Just opened up your link.  I’ll check it out, and give my feedback a bit later.  Thanks.

    Ed

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24. Brent,

    “she wasn’t the brightest bulb on the tree, either.”

    That was good!! I gotta remember that. Haven’t heard that one before.

    Ed

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25. An Attorney,

    Why didn’t you just quote Romans 16:7, An Attorney? That verse proves your case, as far as I am concerned!! I agree. Judgment is for An Attorney! I stand guilty as charged!

    Romans 16:7
    Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

    I think you don’t like the Strong’s Concordance, however, the word “note” is defined as “remarkable, i.e., eminent”. The English usage in the KJV is “Note, and Notable”.

    The word “among” is also another important word being used. There are many Greek words used for the English word “among”. But in this case, it’s meaning is: denoting a fixed position.

    That tells me that they are included as apostles, and not just Christian friends of Paul who hangs out with Apostles. So, my 15 has increased to 17!

    I concluded that BEFORE I read your link, just by dissecting Romans 16:7, which is the verse provided by the link at the beginning.

    However, your link debates much about Junia’s gender. In regards to gender, I think that I, myself, can conclude that Junia is female. But, I don’t know.

    Ed

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26. Dear Julie Ann, Ed & “An Attorney”
    I agree, we need to “Please debate issues not persons.”
    Amen.

    The underlying issue, is “What is an Apostle”?

    In the Evangelical world we have been trained to “beg the question” without examining the real source of our beliefs. An example of this is “An Attorney” writing
    “others are referred to as apostles in other places in scripture”

    Which “Scripture” written by whom?
    We have been trained not to ask that question.
    So lets dial back and examine that specific issue, comparing
    .1) What is an apostle according to Jesus and the Original Apostles, vs.
    .2) What is an apostle according to Paul

    Acts chapter 1:12-26 has the heading in the NIV Translation,
    “Matthias Chosen to Replace Judas.”
    Based on the text, I believe this is a very accurate summary.

    Certainly there are broader implications about “qualifications for leaders” that we can draw from this. But the first and primary meaning has to do with “what is an Apostle, what are the qualifications for an Apostle, how many Apostles are there, and who is the 12th Apostle.”

    Acts chapter 1 is completely consistent with all the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles in the entire New Testament. There are only 12 Apostles, and the 12th is Matthias.

    Paul had a different opinion about what “apostles” are, and that he was an apostle. But Paul was completely alone in his opinion. No one in the pages of the New Testament agreed with Paul’s opinions about “apostles.”

    Yes, out of context, the passing editorial comments of Paul’s Gentile traveling companion Luke in Acts 14, (referring to a short-term mission trip where “the apostles, Barnabas and Paul” were temporarily sent out together from the church in Antioch, ) does appear on the surface to support Paul’s claim to be “an apostle.” However, if we read the context that Luke recorded in Acts 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15, we can clearly see that Paul was never appointed an apostle, or recognized individually as an apostle by anyone at all in the New Testament. No one !
    And no one in the world has refuted this statement of fact.

    “beloved brother’ does not mean “apostle.”
    Writing Scripture does not make someone an “apostle” and NOT writing Scripture does not disqualify an appointed Apostle. Only 3 Apostles wrote Scripture – Matthew, John & Peter.
    “chosen vessel / chosen instrument” does not mean “apostle.”
    “apostle” is not just some who was “sent”, according to Jesus and the Original Apostles in the text of the New Testament.

    Blessings to you all in the name above all names, Jesus.

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27. Matthew,

    Thanks for your input.  I hold no ill-will about our conversation.  Be it known, I don’t mind heated discussions.  However, this is Julie Anne’s blog, and she reigns me in at times.

    Having said that, I cannot deny scripture.  Peter acknowledges Paul’s writings.  And if he does, then I must.  Based on your assertion that Paul is self proclaimed is an issue with me, based on Peter’s words.  Now, if you believe in Peter’s words, but proclaim that Paul self appointed himself, then that tells me that you might think that Paul’s “real” epistles never was canonized.

    But, in a couple of my emails to you, I mentioned Abraham, in that Abraham did not have the law.  And based on everything that Paul said (alleged to you), I do not find any disparity at all.  Are we saved by law, that Abraham never had, or by believing, as Abraham did, which Paul preaches?

    You are stuck on the word “apostle”.  When Jesus declared 12 disciples to be Apostles, there was no qualification other than them being disciples.  The only qualification was that Jesus picked them.  Jesus chose.  Jesus made the decision.  And, based on what I see in Paul’s writings, Jesus also made the decision that Paul would be an Apostle, regardless of what they did in Acts 1.

    In scripture, we are told that God set some as Apostles, pastor, preachers, teachers, etc.  I might also ask you what are the qualifications of a pastor?  Most, today, think that it is a college education in a seminary, hence, they make it a career, while Paul was a tent maker who paid his own way.  He thought his education was dung (KJV language).

    What qualifications were there at being a pastor back then? 

    Based on what I read, the only one who can appoint an apostle, is another apostle.  

    Based on what I see, Acts 1 was only for the sole purpose of replacing Judas, not as a standard.  It cannot be a standard since there were other apostles mentioned, besides the 12.

    However, I will say that I am sure that there are many self appointed apostles in today’s realm of Christendom.  But I cannot disown Paul as an Apostle, especially if Peter acknowledges Paul’s writings, making absolutely sure to tell people that Paul states things that are hard to be understood. 

    Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees, formally educated by a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law.  A Pharisee is a lawyer.  A Pharisee knows the law inside and out, backwards and forwards, up and down. 

    Therefore, to have someone like that go against his education, and see Jesus as the one who he persecuted, states volumes to me.  That road to Damascus is a famous story, and it cannot be denied by me.  Therefore, I cannot fathom a claim that Paul is self appointed, when his epistles, as well as Luke’s account, indicate that Jesus chose him.

    That is my take.

    Respectfully,

    Ed

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28. Ed
    The underlying issue, is “What is an Apostle”? (according to Jesus the Original Apostles vs. according to Paul.)

    I have stated that according to all the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles in the entire New Testament, there are only 12 Apostles, and the 12th is Matthias.
    This is simply a statement of fact about the New Testament text.

    You continue to dance around the issue, as we both have been trained to do. I understand your dance – but it’s time to face the facts and stop.

    You tell me “You are stuck on the word “apostle”.
    Yes, that is the issue we are addressing. “What is an Apostle”?
    I am stuck on-topic. You are trying to dodge the issue and go off-topic.

    Since you can’t quote Jesus or the Original Apostles, you use some loaded terms and expressions, like: “I cannot deny scripture. Peter acknowledges Paul’s writings.”

    In this case, you are implying that “All Scripture is God-breathed” simply because Paul said so- but no one agreed with Paul on this. You are equating “Scripture” with “God’s Word” but these are not equal terms, despite our traditional training.

    Scripture in not God. The Bible is not not. Paul is not God.
    Jesus is God – the Jesus of the Bible, whose testimony is recorded by the 4 Gospel writers Matthew Mark Luke & John.

    Jesus “acknowledges” Solomon’s writings too. But Jesus doesn’t say that “Song of Solomon” is The Word of God, even though it’s part of “Scripture.” And Jesus certainly didn’t tell us to follow Solomon’s example, being led astray by his harem of 1000 women into idolatry, worshiping other gods.

    You talk about Abraham. This has nothing to do with the topic “What is an Apostle”?

    Then you “beg the question” quoting Paul again, saying “In scripture, we are told that God set some as Apostles, pastor, preachers, teachers, etc.” This is Paul’s idea.

    You wrote, “Based on what I read, the only one who can appoint an apostle, is another apostle. “ And who appointed Paul ????? NO ONE. (Luke wasn’t an Apostle either.)

    Yes, “there are many self appointed apostles in today’s realm of Christendom.”
    Paul was the first self-appointed apostle, and Paul’s writings are the primary Biblical source of all the confusion today about apostles.

    If you believe Paul was an apostle, you have one and only one Biblical source – “because Paul said so.” Yes, 5 years ago I used to believe that Paul was an Apostle. I have learned something since then. He wasn’t, except in his own mind. He wasn’t, according to Jesus and the Original Apostles. Paul was wrong. Jesus is right. It takes courage to admit to the world “I was wrong” about something. I’ve admitted it. Can you?
    Blessings
    Matthew

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29. Dude, I am not dancing.  I told you that the only qualification to being an apostle is that Jesus chose them.  No other reason. 

    “What is an apostle?” is a secondary issue for me, as not even Jesus defined it.

    If you have a verse that defines it, anywhere in the Bible, then please share.

    All I can say is this, in that regard.  What did the Apostles “DO” that were different that what Disciples “DO”.  And that is easy to find out, without a “FORMAL” answer of “What is an Apostle”, let alone the qualifications.

    However, my whole point in all of this is that you need to consult those in a much higher of a historical education than anyone on any blogs.  Academia.  Those who study History for a living.  I am not qualified.  Neither are you. 

    Why do I say that?  Because you are making a statement, not a question.  You disguise it as a question, but you have already made up your mind that Paul is NOT an Apostle.  And if that be the case, then you should leave Christianity, because Christianity is not only based on Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, but all of the other books of the NT, as well.  And if you don’t believe something that Paul said, then leave Christianity.  You don’t believe the words.  You already said that.  So find a religion that you like, but leave the rest of us alone. 

    I would respond differently if “What is an Apostle?” was a question, rather than a statement that Paul is NOT an apostle.

    You asked me the other day if I ever changed my mind.  I didn’t answer.  Well, today I am going to answer with this:

    I once knew a Muslim who told me that he “USED TO BE” a Christian.

    HE “changed” his mind.  Me, I find that his statement is an oxymoron.  To me, there is no such thing as a “USED TO BE” when discussing Christianity.  Either you are, or you never were to begin with.

    So, my straight forward answer is this:  NO.  The first premise of Christianity is to believe the words of the Bible, not to say that it is a lie, or that it was made up.  Our belief is BASED ON SOMETHING.  What is that something?  The Bible, which is The Word of God, not the Word of Paul.  In other words, Paul’s words are God’s words, not Paul’s words…with the exception of a few things, for which Paul acknowledges before speaking them.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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30. Ed,
    The issue is “What is an apostle?”

    You said QUOTE: ” the only qualification to being an apostle is that Jesus chose them. No other reason.”

    No, that is wrong. That may be YOUR opinion. But that is not what an Apostle is according to Jesus and the Original Apostles. Rather than me reinventing the wheel, why don’t you first listen to the words of the chief Apostle Peter in Acts chapter 1, and look at what the group of 11 Chosen Apostles did in Choosing Matthias as the new 12th Apostle.. They all knew what an Apostle is better than Paul did, I can guarantee you.

    Then, why don’t you look up all the places where the word Apostle is used, either spoken by Jesus or describing the ministry of Jesus, and what Jesus had to say about “12 Thrones” and “thrones”.

    The days of the evil giant Goliath “Boss Paul the Pharisee” are numbered.
    As the song on the radio reminds us,
    “JESUS you are the voice of truth
    And I will listen to YOU
    The voice of truth.”

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31. Ed
    Your last post is filled with your ideas about the importance of Paul and “The Bible.” Yet, you didn’t quote the Bible one single time. These are all just your opinions. I see that you have made Paul into God. Or more specifically, your interpretation of Paul’s interpretation of “The Bible.” You have the mind of Paul, because you have been brainwashed by Paul’s letters.

    You have elevated Paul’s one short statement (in the middle of a personal letter – which no one else in the New Testament agrees with) into the one comprehensive summary statement of “What is the Word of God.” Paul wrote: “All Scripture is God-breathed.” No one in the New Testament agreed with Paul on this.

    Who is Paul to make the one over-arching all-defining statement about what God’s word is? Who is Paul to define for us, all by himself, what “All Scripture” is? Who is Paul to make his own words into the words of God, equal to the words of Jesus?

    He was Paul the Pharisee, who was called as a missionary to go far away from Jerusalem, primarily to the Gentiles. No one ever appointed Paul an Apostle, and he didn’t even know what an Apostle was. He was just a carnal but gifted Christian, along the lines of Samson, Jonah, and King Solomon, who didn’t know very much and had an attitude problem.

    We need to listen to the words of Jesus.
    JESUS said “Heaven and earth will pass away, by MY WORDS will never pass away.”
    [Matthew 24:35]

    The words of Jesus are above all other words. The testimony of Jesus is above all others. If we are following Jesus, why would we believe otherwise? This is Orthodox.

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32. Matthew Perri,

    I do not find a need to quote the Bible when I already know it.  Please go away now.  I will not respond to you again.  I believe in Paul’s words, you don’t.  There is nothing more to say.

    Ed

    ________________________________ From: Spiritual Sounding Board To: chapmaned24@yahoo.com Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 8:42 AM Subject: [New comment] Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Coy’s Story of Moral Corruption Leads Calvary Chapel Members to Share Their Personal Stories

    WordPress.com Matthew Perri commented: “Ed Your last post is filled with your ideas about the importance of Paul and “The Bible.” Yet, you didn’t quote the Bible one single time. These are all just your opinions. I see that you have made Paul into God. Or more specifically, your inte” Respond to this comment by replying above this line New comment on Spiritual Sounding Board Matthew Perri commented on Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Coy’s Story of Moral Corruption Leads Calvary Chapel Members to Share Their Personal Stories. in response to Julie Anne: *** The moral scandal of mega-church pastor Bob Coy leads others to come forward to tell their personal stories of corruption and abuse among the Calvary Chapel franchise of churches. *** Ed Your last post is filled with your ideas about the importance of Paul and “The Bible.” Yet, you didn’t quote the Bible one single time. These are all just your opinions. I see that you have made Paul into God. Or more specifically, your interpretation of Paul’s interpretation of “The Bible.” You have the mind of Paul, because you have been brainwashed by Paul’s letters. You have elevated Paul’s one short statement (

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33. “How can you say, ‘I am not defiled; I have not run after the PAULS'”?
    But even now, in the midst of your idolatry,
    Jesus loves you!

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34. Matthew Perri ( #1 )

    I agree – WE, His Ekklesia, His Sheep, should follow Jesus – NOT Paul.

    1 – But – How are you doing that? How do you follow Jesus?
    2 – How are you “different” from those who follow Paul?
    3 – How do you suggest others should follow Jesus?
    4 – How would I know if someone is following Jesus? And NOT Paul?

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35. Matthew Perri ( #2 )

    And, If you’re correct? And Paul, is a phoney self appointed apostle?

    1 – What do we do with ALL of Paul’s letters?
    2 – Are his letters ALL wrong? Is everything Paul writes to be dismissed?
    3 – If NOT ALL of what Paul writes is wrong, who determines what is okay?
    4 – How do I determine which of Paul’s writings is okay?

    And, if Paul is wrong? By NOT quoting Jesus exactly? As you would like?
    And Paul is “deliberately” leading WE, His Ekklesia, astray, with…

    Romans 13:8 KJV
    Owe no man any thing, but to love one another:
    for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

    Galatians 5:14 KJV
    For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this;
    Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

    5 – Do we also dis-miss James, throw out James’ writings, when he writes…

    James 2:8 KJV
    If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
    Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

    6 – Is James wrong also? By NOT quoting Jesus exactly? As you would like?

    And Jesus also said in Mat 25:40 KJV
    “…Verily I say unto you,
    Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
    **ye have done it unto me.**”

    7 – Now – If, I’m-a-thinkin, what Paul and James wrote has some value? “Owe no man any thing, but to love one another?” “fulfil the royal law…?” “Thou shalt love thy neighbour…?” And, I’m-a-lovin – “one of the least of these my brethren?” “with all your (MY) heart and with all your (MY) soul and with all your (MY) mind.???” As Jesus asked me to love God?

    Would I be-a-greeun with Jesus when he said?
    “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
    **ye have done it unto me?**”

    And, by proxy – I’m-a-lovin – Jesus? God?

    “Love the Lord your God
    with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind?”

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36. Matthew Perri ( #3 )

    In your first comment @ APRIL 15, 2014 @ 10:49 PM – you write…
    “too many pastors are trying to “be like Paul”,
    **the abusive absentee pastor** of the church in Corinth.
    ————–

    In my comment to Marsha @ APRIL 17, 2014 @ 8:40 AM – I said…
    “And I kinda agree with Matthew Perri, (but NOT sure,) when he writes…

    “The trouble is, too many pastors are trying to “be like Paul”

    That has been my experience also – and – In my experience…
    “too many pastors,” “Ignore” and “Twist” what Jesus said, did, and taught…
    His Disciples. – “trying to “be like Paul” 😉
    ————-

    So, I was wondering – Since you call Paul – **the abusive absentee pastor*

    1 – How was Paul abusive? And to who was he abusive?

    2 – Why do you call Paul – pastor?
    “Especially since Paul, and the Bible, never calls Paul – pastor?”

    3 – And why do you use the word pastor at all?
    Since the only place – pastors – is found in the english Bible?
    Is in Pauls writings. In Paul’s letter to the Ephesians? In Eph 4:11 KJV?

    4 – Why are you quoting Paul? And NOT Jesus?
    Who referred to Himself as the “ONE” shepherd?

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    If not now? – When?

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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37. Matthew Perri ( #4 )

    You mention “qualifications for leaders” @ MAY 20, 2014 @ 11:01 AM…
    “Certainly there are broader implications about “qualifications for leaders” that we can draw from this.”

    Was wondering….
    Why do you NOT quote Jesus?
    Who taught His Disciples – NOT to be called Leaders?
    For you have “ONE” Leader, the Christ?

    Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible
    Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
    But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant”.
    Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
    and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.

    The Message – Mat 23:10-12.
    And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them.
    There is only “ONE” Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
    **Do you want to stand out? – Then step down. – Be a servant.**
    If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you.
    But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.

    And His Disciples believed, and obeyed, Jesus…
    NOT one of His Disciples called them self “Leader.”

    In the Bible, ALL of “His Disciples” called themselves “Servants.” 😉

    If someone is “Ignoring” what Jesus taught His Disciples?
    If someone is “Opposing” what Jesus taught His Disciples?

    And, calls themself “Leader?”
    And, allows others to call them “Leader?”

    Are they one of His Disciples?

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38. Dear A. Amos Love
    Greetings with much joy in the name above all names, JESUS!
    I’m glad you are back. And I’m glad we agree:
    “– WE, His Ekklesia, His Sheep, should follow Jesus – NOT Paul.”

    You ask a blizzard of great questions. To begin with, we should consider what is the Most Important Commandment according to Jesus. (Paul disagreed with Jesus on this point.)

    Can you let me know after reading this previous post, do we agree on this also? Jesus said that “all the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO commandments.” Of the TWO, which one is the first greatest most important commandment?

    https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2014/04/08/calvary-chapel-pastor-bob-coys-story-of-moral-corruption-leads-calvary-chapel-members-to-share-their-personal-stories/comment-page-1/#comment-115937

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39. Dear A. Amos Love,
    Regarding The Bible:

    The Bible is not God.
    The common Evangelical perspective is that The Bible is “One Book” which all “harmonizes” and is all equally authoritative and important and one unified “voice of God.” This perspective is simply assumed, by John MacArthur, etc.

    What Biblical basis is there for this “traditional” view? Only one, really. Paul wrote once, buried in the middle of a personal letter, “All Scripture is God-breathed.” But no one else ever said that, and even Paul didn’t say that all Scripture was equal. (The Apostle Peter wrote of PROPHECY of Scripture, not “All Scripture.”)

    Jesus clearly saw the Scriptures of his day, what we call the Old Testament, in 3 distinct categories, in order of priority.

    Here is a relevant quote from John Paul Jackson, from the following video.
    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God….” [John 1:1]
    that just doesn’t mean the New Testament. Because guess what, when He came and John wrote it the New Testament didn’t exist. He was talking about the word of God, EXPRESSLY THE TORAH. In the beginning was the Torah. And you go whoa; now you’re getting heavy. That should not be heavy to us. That should not be heavy to us. That should be one of those: “of course.” But we take one step at a time.”

    John Paul Jackson – 2/28/2009 Rend The Heavens Conference
    Charlotte NC Mahesh Chavda Ministries
    1. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=John+Paul+Jackson+YouTube&Form=VQFRVP#view=detail&mid=E4E465431ECB131A2CFAE4E465431ECB131A2CFA

    How would Jesus prioritize “The Books” – the 66 books of what we call “The Bible?”
    Even if you believe that “all Scripture is God-breathed”, Jesus clearly told us that all Scripture is NOT equally authoritative or important. When asked, Jesus summed things up in not 1 but rather 2 commandments, based on only 2 out of the 3 accepted sections of the Hebrew Scriptures- the Law and the Prophets. He didn’t mention the Writings at that time. Then in Luke 24:44 Jesus spoke of “The Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

    I’m not Moses writing tablets of stone. But below is my rough idea of how I think Jesus would prioritize “The Books.” I’m not questioning the content of the texts. But one way or another, the choice of which order to arrange the content of the 66 books in is a matter of human tradition, and there are multiple traditions.

    If you think what we call the “New Testament” has to be in the order of (1) Gospels, (2) Acts, then (3) Paul front and center, you should talk with the Russian Orthodox Church.

    And if you think the order of the books in the King James Version of what we call the “Old Testament” is the only authorized order, you should talk with the Jews. (You also might want to change the name of your Bible to “King Jacob.”)

    But you probably would also need to remind modern Jews that Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles were all originally stand-alone scrolls, not part 1 & part 2.

    I’m not saying, “Thus says the Lord” here. But based on what I know right now of the Jesus of the Bible, and the Bible text itself, here is my best guess at how Jesus would order the priority of “The Books.”

    .1) The Word made flesh- 4 Gospels – Matthew, Mark, Luke, John
    .2) Torah – The Law of Moses – Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy
    .3) The Prophecy – Acts, Revelation
    .4) The Prophets – Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings, Major Prophets, Minor Prophets
    .5) Psalms
    .6) General letters: of the Apostles I & 2 Peter, 1 John
    .7) General letters: to the Hebrews, and from James (aka Jacob)
    .8) Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Job, Ruth, Esther and the other Writings
    .9) Personal letters: of The Apostle John, Jude, and Paul

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40. Matthew Perri ( #1a )

    I agree – WE, His Ekklesia, His Sheep, should follow Jesus – NOT Paul.

    1 – But – How are you doing that? How do you follow Jesus?
    2 – How are you “different” from those who follow Paul?
    3 – How do you suggest others should follow Jesus?
    4 – How would I know if someone is following Jesus? And NOT Paul?

    ———–

    Jesus, never asked His Disciples to follow a Mere Fallible Human…
    The only one Jesus asked His Disciples to follow was Himself, Jesus.

    Mat 4:19
    …*Follow ME,* and I will make you fishers of men.

    John 10:27
    MY Sheep Hear MY Voice, and I know them, and they *Follow ME:*

    John 12:26
    If any man serve me, let him *Follow ME*…

    ———–

    And, I would like to know how following Jesus – and NOT Paul?
    Has benefited you in your walk, your time, with Jesus?

    1 – But – How are you doing that? How do you follow Jesus?
    2 – How are you “different” from those who follow Paul?
    3 – How do you suggest others should follow Jesus?
    4 – How would I know if someone is following Jesus? And NOT Paul?

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41. I accept the priorities of Jesus, not the priorities of Paul.
    What Jesus said is the Most Important Commandment is the Most Important Commandment. Would you agree? The goal is application, yes, but before we discuss application, we need to know what is the most important.

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42. Matthew Perri ( #2a )

    This was also asked @ MAY 22, 2014 @ 1:26 PM…

    5 – Do we also dis-miss James, throw out James’ writings, when he writes…

    James 2:8 KJV
    If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
    **Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,** ye do well:

    The same thing that Paul wrote in…

    Galatians 5:14 KJV
    For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this;
    **Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.**

    6 – Is James wrong also? By NOT quoting Jesus exactly? As you would like?

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43. Matthew Perri ( #2b )

    This was first asked @ MAY 22, 2014 @ 1:26 PM…

    And, If you’re correct? And Paul, is a phoney self appointed apostle?
    And does NOT know the most important commandment?
    And does NOT know the greatest commandment?

    1 – What do we do with ALL of Paul’s letters?
    2 – Are his letters ALL wrong? Is everything Paul writes to be dismissed?
    3 – If NOT ALL of what Paul writes is wrong, who determines what is okay?
    4 – How do I determine which of Paul’s writings is okay?

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44. Matthew Perri ( #3a )

    This was first asked @ MAY 22, 2014 @ 1:29 PM…

    3 – And why do you use the word pastor at all?
    4 – Why are you quoting Paul? And NOT Jesus?

    ————-

    In your first comment @ APRIL 15, 2014 @ 10:49 PM – you write…
    “too many pastors are trying to “be like Paul”,
    **the abusive absentee pastor** of the church in Corinth.
    ————–

    So, I was wondering – Since you call Paul – **the abusive absentee pastor*

    1 – How was Paul abusive? And to who was he abusive?

    2 – Why do you call Paul – pastor?
    “Especially since Paul, and the Bible, never calls Paul – pastor?”

    3 – And why do you use the word pastor at all?
    Since the only place – pastors – is found in the english NT?
    Is in Pauls writings. In Paul’s letter to the Ephesians? In Eph 4:11 KJV?

    4 – Why are you quoting Paul? And NOT Jesus?
    Jesus – Who referred to Himself as the “ONE” shepherd?

    And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
    them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
    and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
    John 10:16

    If not now? – When?

    One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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45. What Matthew Perri does not get, is that when you sin against people, you sin against God.  It’s one in the same.

    David had Bathsheba’s husband murdered.  David committed adultery.  He sinned against Bathsheba’s husband.  And yet, this is what David said:

    Psalm 51:4 4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

    If you love your neighbor as yourself, you are not sinning against God.

    But Matthew doesn’t seem to get it.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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46. Ed

    Yes – Much agreement when you write…
    “But Matthew doesn’t seem to get it.”

    Matthew doesn’t seem to get – What Paul said…

    Galatians 5:14 KJV
    For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this;
    **Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.**

    Matthew doesn’t seem to get – What James said…

    James 2:8 KJV
    If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture,
    **Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,** ye do well:

    Is in line with what jesus said

    Because, when you Love Your Neighbour…
    You are Loving God…

    Because, Jesus also said. in Mat 25:40 KJV
    “…Verily I say unto you,
    Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
    **ye have done it unto me.**”

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47. 1 Cor 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

    Matthew is at a start of beginning a cult.  If you click on his nick, he represents a church.  His new found theology is dangerous.

    I find nothing wrong with being a Paul follower.  We had a saying in the military.  Lead, follow, or get out of the way.  It is obvious that Matthew is trying to recruit people to follow him, in his thinking.  Paul led, I follow.  Matthew, get out of the way!

    Ed

    ________________________________

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48. Besides, Paul was speaking to those who already loved God with all their strength, mind, body, soul, etc.  He was preaching to the choir.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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49. A. Amos Love,

    Exactly right!

    When you have done it to the least of these, you have done it to me!!!!!

    So, we have 2 examples.  David, which I provided, and also yours, what Jesus said.

    Yep, he doesn’t get it, that if you love people, you love God.  Love is an action word.  That means that you “DO”.  We are to be doers, not just hearers.

    Love is a DO.  That is how you work (faith without love is dead).

    I wish that Matthew would get it. 

    Ed

    ________________________________

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50. Ed

    And I appreciated your responces to Matthew this week.

    I saw his comments to me last Saturday. And did NOT know if I would respond. The way your conversation went with Matthew I was kinda glad I did not respond right away. 🙂

    It was fun for me watching the back and forth…
    NO matter what Bible verses you quoted -They were never good enough. 🙂
    You and Lydia said plenty but Matthew was NOT listening.

    And, so, yesterday, I thought I would ask him some questions…
    Which he does NOT seem to want to answer…

    Like – Do we dis-miss, ignore, James also? He said the same as Paul…

    And – Do we dis-miss, ignore, Peter also? You mentioned 2 Peter 3:15-16.

    Who called Paul – “**our beloved brother Paul**

    And spoke about “to **the wisdom** given unto him”

    “written unto you” – “in ALL HIS EPISTLES”

    ———-

    That’s why I asked him. And, I’ll ask Matthew again… 😉

    Matthew – If you’re correct? And Paul, is a phoney self appointed apostle?

    1 – What do we do with ALL of Paul’s letters?
    2 – Are his letters ALL wrong? Is everything Paul writes to be dismissed?
    3 – If NOT ALL of what Paul writes is wrong, who determines what is okay?
    4 – How do I determine which of Paul’s writings is okay?

    1a – What do we do with James’ letter? James said the same thing as Paul.
    **Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself,**

    1b – What do we do with Peters letters?
    Peter thought Paul had **the wisdom** given unto him”
    “in ALL HIS EPISTLES”

    Pro 20:17
    Bread of deceit is sweet to a man;
    but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.

    Ps 138:6
    Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
    but the proud he knoweth afar off.

    Ps 40:4
    Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
    and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.

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51. Ed

    I’ve had some doubts about Paul in the past. About 10 – 12 years ago. Started to question some things that Paul said because they did NOT seem the agree with Jesus. At least they did NOT agree, or were different at that time.

    I had a list of differences that I would challenge folks with trying to figure stuff out and test the waters.. Even asked some folks – “What if Paul is a heretic?” “What if Paul could NOT wipe out the believers with persecution so he joined this merry band to destroy them from inside?” And, I could make a pretty good case. 😉

    Well, you can imagine the responses. All hell would break loose. Just questioning Paul got some folks pretty mad. But, I also met some folks who were questioning Paul also. So, at first, I did NOT mind Matthew going through his open dislike for Paul. It was a path I went through.

    The benefit for me at the time was – I started to go more and more to the Gospels. Going to Jesus first when researching various topics. Wanted to first know what Jesus had to say about a subject. And that caused me to start quoting Jesus, and what he said, more and more. And, in turn, that caused me to start pointing people to Jesus, more and more, and what Jesus said.

    I read and re-read what Jesus said, and did, and taught His Disciples.
    And, it was a lot different then what I learned in “The Religious system.”

    I like Jesus – A lot… 😉 “The Religious system” NOT so much… 😉

    And, in falling in love with Jesus again, returning to my first love…
    I NO longer have a problem, or doubts, about Paul, and his writings.
    Some things might be “hard to be understood” as Peter said…
    But, I now can understand some things Paul said, I had a problem with.

    Jesus is the best teacher, The “ONE” Teacher – Yes?

    2 Peter 3:15-16.
    And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation;
    even as **our beloved brother Paul**
    also according to **the wisdom** given unto him hath written unto you;
    As also in ALL HIS EPISTLES, speaking in them of these things;
    in which are **some things hard to be understood,**
    which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest,
    as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

    So, for me, by spending more and more time with Jesus…
    And desiring to be one of His Disciples…
    Learning directly from Jesus – NO middle man – eventually…
    I bcame more and more at peace with **our beloved brother Paul**
    and **the wisdom.** – **in ALL HIS EPISTLES** and what he wrote.

    Today – When I do NOT understand Paul, I can put it on a shelf…
    And wait for Jesus to explain it to me – On a need to know basis… 😉

    Jesus is the best teacher, The “ONE” Teacher – Yes?

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52. A. Amos Love,

    Not only all that, but time and time again, Paul quoted the Law and the Prophets time and time again, in order to show people that Jesus not only claimed to be the Christ, but that by the Law and the Prophets, that Jesus is the Christ.

    What did Jesus say about Peter’s revelation that Jesus is the Christ?  He said that it is of the Father that revealed it to him.  Everyone from that generation of JEWS were denying Christ, but not Paul.

    Why would Paul declare that Jesus is the Christ if he didn’t believe it?  That is a death sentence in itself for him.  A Pharisee declaring Jesus is the Christ?  Think about the ramifications.  His fellow Jews did want to kill him.  Now we have Matthew that probably wants to burn Paul at the stake, as well.

    What I find interesting about the Bible is that the atheists are smart.  They find things in the Bible all the time that, if you are unlearned, are indeed contradictory. 

    You give Matthew a bit of a pass, and I understand why you do, as you went thru it yourself.  Well, in a sense, I am the same with atheists, too.  It makes me search the scriptures again, and again in order to see things from a “deeper” level, instead of just what is seen from the surface.  

    That is where I learned, and it took time, to see things in the spiritual, not the carnal.  Carnal things are seen, spiritual things are unseen, or invisible.

    We all know that John, in the gospel of John, was the spiritual speaker.  He went pretty deep in his spiritual insight than the other three gospels did.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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53. Ed

    Yes – “the atheists are smart. They find things in the Bible all the time that, if you are unlearned, are indeed contradictory.”

    I also enjoy a challenge, dis-agreement, someone pointing out what looks to be contradictory. It causes me to go to Jesus and ask different questions.

    Pro 25:2
    It is the glory of God **to conceal a thing:**
    but the honour of kings is **to search out a matter.**

    Ec 1:13
    And I gave my heart to seek and **search out by wisdom**
    concerning ALL THINGS that are done under heaven:
    this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man
    to be exercised therewith.

    I’ve just come to the place where I believe the Bible is written…
    Just the way God wanted it written…

    But – You have to get it from Jesus for yourself. 😉 NO middle man…

    And I’m encouraged by Jesus **to search out a matter.**

    John 6:45
    It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.

    John 14:26
    But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost,
    whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things…

    Deuteronomy 4:36
    Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
    that *He might instruct thee:*

    For matthew, I was hoping his decision to “Follow Jesus” and NOT Paul…
    Actually had a benefit for him, as it did for me.

    That’s why I asked Matthew…
    1 – But – How are you doing that? How do you follow Jesus?
    2 – How are you “different” from those who follow Paul?
    3 – How do you suggest others should follow Jesus?
    4 – How would I know if someone is following Jesus? And NOT Paul?

    Which Matthew does NOT answer… 😦

    Matthew
    What is the most important benefit for you…
    What is the greatest benefit for you…

    To Follow Jesus? And NOT Paul?

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54. Dear A. Amos Love,
    Do you dismiss the words of Jesus, recorded by the Apostle Matthew (chapter 22) and Mark (Chapter 12) about which one is the first and greatest most important commandment? Did Jesus or the Original Apostles ever say that James or Paul were appointed Apostles?

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55. A. Amos Love,

    Yes!!!!!!  God hides things in the scriptures…for the purpose of us finding the TREASURE that is hidden within it.

    Many people think that the Bible is “straight forward”, aka Calvinists.  They talk so much about “exegesis” (We talk about Jesus, not exegesis) and historical context and their preaching is expository systematic.  You will never find TREASURE with that.  You will never find the things that God hid.  The Pharisees couldn’t find it either.  They were not focused on the spiritual.  Bu then again, they weren’t looking. 

    Ed

    ________________________________

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56. Matthew,

    Did you miss the one that Jesus states that if you did these things to the people, that you did it for him?  Jesus is God, right?

    If you love your neighbor, you are loving God. 

    But…you just don’t get it, do you?

    Love is our good works.  You are to visit Jesus in jail.  You are to give Jesus a drink of water.  You are to clothe Jesus.  You are to take Jesus into your home, because he is homeless.

    Can you read between the lines?  Obviously not.  If you did this to any of God’s creation, you did it TO Jesus.  LOVE.  If you love people, you are loving God.  It isn’t two…it is ONE!!!

    Ed

    ________________________________

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57. Matthew Perri

    You write @ MAY 18, 2014 @ 2:30 PM…

    “got a Masters Degree from Dallas Theological Seminary,
    and worked briefly on pastoral staff in two churches.”

    1 – Do you call yourself, or have the “Title” pastor today?

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58. Half this thread is now Matthew Peri & ChapmanEd going back and forth like those two kids on that old TV sitcom “Julia”:
    “DID NOT!”
    “DID SO!”
    “DID NOT!”
    “DID SO!”
    Or the old God’s Creatures list as it melted down in a never-ending two-party flamewar years ago.

    You two want to kick each other in the nuts back-and-forth, get your own blogs.

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59. Ed

    Much agreement when you write @ MAY 23, 2014 @ 2:33 PM…

    “Yes!!!!!! God hides things in the scriptures…
    for the purpose of us finding the TREASURE that is hidden within it.”

    1 – Jesus always spoke to the multitudes, who followed Him, in parables.

    All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables;
    and without a parable spake he NOT unto them.
    Matthew 13:34

    2 – Seems “The Kingdom of God” is a mystery…
    And Jesus spoke in parables…
    So some would see, and NOT perceive…
    And some would hear, and NOT understand…

    And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know
    *the mystery of the kingdom of God:*
    but unto them that are without,
    ALL these things are done in parables:
    That seeing they may see, and NOT perceive;
    and hearing they may hear, and NOT understand;
    lest at any time they should be converted,
    and their sins should be forgiven them.
    Mark 4:11-12

    Yes – Some things are hard to be understood…
    Why didn’t Jesus speak so ALL could understand???

    3 – BUT – Jesus, expounded ALL things to “His Disciples.”..
    When they were ALONE… 😉

    But without a parable spake he NOT unto them:
    and when they were ALONE, he expounded ALL things to “His Disciples.”
    Mark 4:34

    Ed – I always enjoy our conversations and your understandings… 😉

    Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
    and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
    and a book of remembrance was written before him
    for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
    Mal 3:16 KJV

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60. And Matthew

    You ask @ MAY 23, 2014 @ 12:53 PM…
    “Do you dismiss the words of Jesus, recorded by the Apostle Matthew (chapter 22) and Mark (Chapter 12) about which one is the first and greatest most important commandment?”

    NO, I do NOT dis-miss the words of Jesus…
    Jesus – Who was asked about “the Greatest commandment.
    Jesus – Who was asked about “the most important commandment.

    But – When Paul, and James, was speaking – Was anyone asking them?
    “which one is the first and greatest most important commandment?”
    NOPE

    And – Have you noticed…
    Jesus also gives a NEW Commandment – **That ye love one another;**

    John 13:34-35
    A NEW commandment I give unto you,
    **That ye love one another;**
    as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
    By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
    **if ye have love one to another.**

    Then Jesus says – This is MY commandment, **That ye love one another;**

    John 15:12-13
    This is MY commandment,
    **That ye love one another,** as I have loved you.
    Greater love hath no man than this,
    that a man lay down his life for his friends.

    Could Paul, and James, have been refrencing Jesus saying…
    “A NEW commandment I give unto you?”
    **That ye love one another?**

    And – Could Paul, and James, have been refrencing Jesus saying…
    This is MY commandment?
    **That ye love one another?**

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61. Dear A. Amos Love,
    I’m glad that unlike Ed, you do not Dismiss the words of Jesus in Matthew 22 & Mark 12. This is not some minor point. It’s about what is the most important commandment according to Jesus. Jesus was asked directly, and he responded directly, two different times.

    Jesus was quoting two different laws in the Torah. He didn’t parrot them, there is a slight variation in his wording. But they are TWO Commandments, (not ONE as Paul said.) We need to know that the Law and Prophets are summed up in TWO not one commandment, what the two commandments, are, and which order they are in.
    The love of God is first.
    The love of people is second.

    Yes the two commandments are connected, interrelated, should not be separated, and there is overlap. But they are not the same, they are not equal or equivalent. They are not one, they are two. God is above, man is below.

    How we love God is different than how we love man. There is more to loving God than simply loving people, although it includes loving people. This is not a minor point to Jesus.

    We have a choice here. Listen to what Jesus clearly said (twice.)
    or,
    Our own opinions about what we think Paul and James really must have meant.

    I choose Jesus.
    The writings of Paul and James have some value, but not nearly as much as the teaching of Jesus. Paul and James were reflecting the teachings of the Pharisees of their day, about “love your neighbor as yourself” being the one great commandment. Jesus warned us against the teaching of the Pharisees. It so happens that Paul was literally a Pharisee too.

    The Apostles were 12 men who walked with Jesus faithfully during His entire 3 1/2 years of earthly ministry, from John the Baptist until Jesus rose to heaven, so they were 12 witnesses who really knew Jesus personally. That is why only 2 men were proposed, and Matthias was chosen and appointed to fill the 12th slot, since he was qualified.

    Neither Paul nor James were Apostles. The were not following Jesus for 3 1/2 years, so they didn’t know Jesus and His ways and teachings like the Apostles did. Their not knowing about the First Most Important Commandment and the Second is an example of this. Their teachings are inferior to the teachings of Jesus. So where the teachings of other men disagree with Jesus, I dismiss them, because I cannot dismiss the teachings of Jesus.

    So we have the choice. Follow Paul & James, (who were not even Apostles,) or
    Follow Jesus.

    I know you stress the need for application. I propose to you that we need to ask two questions, not one.
    .1) First, how do we love God first?
    .2) Second, how do we love people second?

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62. A. Amos Love,
    No I Do not you call myself, or have the “Title” pastor today?

    It is a rare word in the Bible – basically, it’s Paul’s word. 🙂
    I was using it loosely, as it us used in our society today to refer to the nominal leader/preacher of a church.

    Paul was the abusive absentee leader of the Church in Corinth. He controlled all aspects of the church, if you read his two letters to them, and he didn’t delegate any real authority to anyone else, even though he had left the church years before and was working full-time at his own school hundreds of miles away.

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63. Matthew Perri, you seem to have fallen into the trap of thinking that the word apostle is a title, denoting position, status and authority. It is not. It is a job description, like janitor or truck driver. Since you are a graduate of Dallas Theological Seminary, you will be able to look up and see that the word apostle itself (ἀπόστολος, apostolos) simply means a delegate or messenger, one who is sent. Correct me if I am wrong, but I cannot recall any Scripture where it say that one must have spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus to be an apostle. Men have applied human logic to reach that conclusion. I suppose Peter applied that test in the particular instance of his (I believe misguided) efforts to complete the number of the 12, but according to the sense of the word apostle itself, to be an apostle of Jesus, one must have been called and sent by Jesus. Paul was called and sent by Jesus. According to the information we have, Matthias was not. Matthias was designated an apostle at the instigation of the ever presumptuous Peter.

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64. Hi Gary W

    It’s been awhile. Good to hear from you. 🙂

    Yes – “apostle itself (ἀπόστολος, apostolos) simply means a delegate or messenger, one who is sent.”

    BUT - Today – Folks like “Titles” – They come with Power – Profit – Prestige…
    Some like to have “Titles” – They come with Power – Profit – Prestige…
    And folks will follow them.

    And some like to follow those with the “Titles.”

    One guy gave himself the “Title”
    Chief Executive Apostle – Pastor – Founder.

    NO kidding – Saw it with my own eyes… 😉

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65. Matthew Perri

    You ask @ MAY 27, 2014 @ 10:24 PM…
    “I know you stress the need for application.
    I propose to you that we need to ask two questions, not one.
    .1) First, how do we love God first?
    .2) Second, how do we love people second?”
    ———

    Hmmm?
    .1) First, how do we love God first?
    How about? – By loving people first… 😉
    ———

    Seems Jesus made it simple to love God first…
    By loving people first – Because Jesus loves people – and said…

    Mt 25:40
    as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren,
    **ye have done it unto me.**

    So, We love God first by loving people first… 🙂

    And – thus we obey “The New Commandment” given by Jesus… 😉

    John 13:34-35
    A NEW commandment I give unto you,
    **That ye love one another;**
    as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
    By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples,
    **if ye have love one to another.**

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66. Matthew Perri

    Do you really think Ed would
    “Dismiss the words of Jesus in Matthew 22 & Mark 12?”

    FYI – When you say stuff like that you lose a lot of credibility.

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67. Matthew Perri

    Clearly, with me, you also lose credibility when you use the word Clearly. Because, In My Experience, most who use Clearly think that is the end of the discussion and they are right. Clearly. And anything I add is NOT Clearly in the Scriptures when I dis-agree. Have I made my clear?

    Clearly, when trying to prove your point, which is NOT clear to me…
    You have a clear compulsion to use the word “Clearly.”
    Which, when used, clearly does NOT benefit your argument or information.
    ———-

    You Clearly use Clearly a lot – Why?

    Clearly @ APRIL 16, 2014 @ 7:08 PM
    “Before your very eyes I **clearly** explained the need for water rationing.”

    Clearly @ MAY 17, 2014 @ 3:15 PM
    “Paul lying to the Ephesian elders saying he was “compelled by the Spirit” going to Jerusalem, when in truth he was **clearly** disobeying God?”

    Clear @ MAY 18, 2014 @ 6:49 PM
    “Even Luke went way of out his way to make it **clear** in Acts 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15 that Paul was never appointed or recognized individually as an apostle by anyone.”

    Clearly @ MAY 20, 2014 @ 11:01 AM
    “However, if we read the context that Luke recorded in Acts 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15, we can **clearly** see that Paul was never appointed an apostle,”

    Clearly @ MAY 22, 2014 @ 6:34 PM
    “Jesus **clearly** saw the Scriptures of his day, what we call the Old Testament, in 3 distinct categories, in order of priority.”

    “Even if you believe that “all Scripture is God-breathed”, Jesus **clearly** told us that all Scripture is NOT equally authoritative or important.”

    Clearly @ MAY 27, 2014 @ 10:24 PM
    “We have a choice here. Listen to what Jesus **clearly** said (twice.)”
    —————–
    This might be a benefit to you.
    This is on my computer Dictionary about using the word “Clearly.”
    By – Stephen White, The Written Word; 1984.

    clearly
    Exaggerators like this word, along with its cousins ( obviously, undeniably, undoubtedly, and the like). Often a statement prefaced with one of these words is conclusory, and sometimes even exceedingly dubious. As a result—though some readers don’t consciously realize it.

    Clearly and its ilk are “weasel words” that is, unnecessary words that supposedly intensify the meaning of a statement, but actually weaken it. Just how much clearly can weaken a statement is evident in the following example, in which the author uses the word to buttress a claim about his own state of mind: “Clearly, I am not to be convinced that this is a small matter.”

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68. Good morning, Amos. Yes, “clearly” is clearly (heh heh) used manipulatively by those who would rather impose their views than seek truth, even if it means admitting that their own views have been incorrect.

    The other thing I notice about Matthew is that he seems to go to extremes. While I agree that it is appropriate to question whether Paul should be received with the unquestioned authority usually afforded to him, Matthew goes and describes Paul as “the abusive absentee pastor of the church in Corinth.” Setting aside the question whether it is cowardly to insult somebody who is dead and cannot defend themselves, Matthew’s comment is a good example of an ad hominem attack.

    Then again, maybe Matthew comes by his binary, black and white, all or nothing patterns of thinking honestly. It’s the sort of thing Dallas Theological Seminary is famous for–unless things have changed since I was reading some stuff by the former president of DTS, Dr. John Walvoord. Now, don’t get me wrong. Dr. Wolvoord is deceased, and I wouldn’t wish to insult a dead man (well, most dead men). Still, I think I am allowed to criticize the man’s writings so long as I don’t insult the man–in the manner Matthew insults God’s chosen instrument to communicate the good news to us gentiles.

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69. Matthew Perri,

    Clearly, A. Amos Love is right. A NEW COMMANDMENT.

    John 13:34
    A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

    **********************

    1 John 4:19-21
    19 We love him, because he first loved us.

    20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

    21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

    *********************
    Ed

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70. Gary W – Ed

    And, I’m-a-now-a-thinkin…
    Paul, and what he wrote, is NOT the problem.

    But – The problem is “Today’s Religious System.” What, How, they teach.
    You know – What Matthew learned at Dallas Theological Seminary.
    And how D.T.S. is training believers to be “Godly servant-leaders.”
    Clearly – A term NOT found in the Bible. But it sure sounds nice… 😉

    And how The Religious System promotes Hierarchy – Chain of Command.
    How they desire to “Exercise Authority.” A No, No. Mark 10:42.
    And say they are “Spiritual Authority” and “Church Leaders.”
    Clearly – Terms NOT found in the Bible. But they sure sound nice… 😉
    And eventually will “Lord it over God’s heritage.” — A No, No. 1 Peter 5:3.

    They will call themselves “servant-leaders.” As D.T.S. teaches…
    But Clearly, “Titled,”edjumacated guys, remain, ‘leaders of the servants.’ 😦
    And get their own parking spaces. And other exhalted privaleges. 😉

    And, so, Today’s Religious System interprets Paul… They translate Paul…
    They *Twist,* mis-interpret, mis-teach, what Paul wrote…

    To fit with their agenda – Control – Authority – Power – Profit – Prestige…

    While *Ignoring* and *Twisting* what Jesus taught His Disciples…

    There is – “ONE” Shepherd – “ONE” Teacher – “ONE” Leader…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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71. “Servant-leader.” This is a fine sounding, though oxymoronic, term. It is unlike the usual examples of oxymornic words insofar as there really are such a things as military intelligence, postal service, and even jumbo shrimp

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72. Oops! That last post should have ended with a period, following which there should have been the single word “Clearly,” to wit: “. . . and even jumbo shrimp. Clearly.”

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73. Dear A. Amos Love,
    With due respect and love, I must note that you are both engaging in “Ad Hominem” attacks and “Begging the Question” rather than facing the specific issues I am raising from the text of the Bible itself.

    .1) What is an Apostle?
    My definition is based on the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles which are in the New Testament Text. So rather than carefully analyzing how I use the word “clearly”, it would be more relevant and profitable to do the same kind of analysis on how Jesus and the Original Apostles used the word “Apostle” and words with that root, and references to them such as “Twelve Thrones” and “Thrones'”.

    Only 3 Apostles wrote Scripture. Matthew, John, & Peter.
    Mark & Luke also recorded the words and actions of Jesus the Original Apostles. even though they were not themselves Apostles and had no authority to appoint Apostles.

    My definition of “Apostle” does not come from Paul, or from Luke’s passing editorial comments in Acts 14 out of context about “the apostles, Barnabas and Paul”, or from a Modern Greek Dictionary, or from Church Tradition. Paul redefined the word “Apostle” in order to include himself in this elite category. Other sources are based on Paul’s liberal redefinition of the word.

    If you have something from the words or actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles to indicate that Matthias was not the 12th appointed Apostle, or there are more than 12 Apostles, please show me where in Scripture.
    with Blessings,
    Matthew

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74. Amos and Ed,

    Do you notice how cleverly Matthew (1:55 PM) attempts to shift the burden of proof from the one asserting a proposition to the ones he is trying to prevail upon. Worse, he goes so far as to insist that his detractors prove a negative. Those are slick tactics if you can get away with them.

    Beyond that, it seems that Mathew is permitted to insist that historical practice was and is normative when it comes to defining apostles as having been with Jesus during His ministry. However, when I point out that Matthias, unlike the initial 12 (plus Paul), was neither called nor appointed by Jesus Himself, why then the example of Jesus calling and appointing apostles is NOT normative.

    In my opinion Matthew is clearly attempting to manipulate the manner of discussion so that he can prevail by process, without reference to actual substance.

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75. Here is Frank Viola’s list of all the apostles mentioned in the New Testament:

    Jesus Christ (Heb. 3:1)
    The Twelve (Matt. 10:2–4; Mark 3:14–19; Luke 6:13–16):
    Andrew Bartholomew (also called Nathanael)
    James, son of Zebedee
    James, son of Alphaeus
    John Judas Iscariot (Matthias took his place—Acts 1:26)
    Judas (also called Lebbaeus and surnamed Thaddaeus)
    Matthew (also called Levi)
    Peter (also called Simon)
    Philip Simon Zelotes (also called Simon the Canaanite)
    Thomas (also called Didymus)

    In addition to the Twelve, the following are also called “apostles” (apostolos in Greek):
    Apollos (1 Cor. 4:6–9)
    Andronicus (Rom. 16:7)
    Barnabas (Acts 14:3–4, 14; 1 Cor. 9:5–6)
    Epaphroditus (Phil. 2:25)
    James, the Lord’s brother (1 Cor. 15:7; Gal. 1:19)
    Junia (Rom. 16:7)
    Paul (Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:1, et al.)
    Silas (1 Thess. 1:1; 2:6)
    Timothy (1 Thess. 1:1; 2:6)
    Titus (2 Cor. 8:23)

    Viola, Frank (2009-09-01). Finding Organic Church:A Comprehensive Guide to Starting and Sustaining Authentic Christian Communities (pp. 162-164). David C Cook. Kindle Edition.

    Of course, since Matthew rejects Paul out of hand (or so it appears to me), he will not be persuaded. Sorry, but I find Paul to be more persuasive than Matthew P., even if I am toying with the idea that, though Paul is authoritative, he is not necessarily infallible.

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76. A. Amos Love

    Oh, there’s that famous Calvinistic term, “ad hominem”.  They must teach Latin at the Dallas cemetary.  I want some eggs with my hominy grits.  I saw an ad for hominy for $1.99 that includes orange juice, coffee, and a visit to see the wizard of oz with the straw man.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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77. Gary,

    If you click his name, it brings you to a church that he is representing.  Back in 2009 Matthew posted his own blog posts proclaiming to the world that the Apostle Paul was designated Apostle by Jesus.  Now he somehow “changed his mind”. 

    Out of all of the experts in the world, he has found something that no one in the whole world has found in over 2,000 years.  He thinks it’s a revelation from God or something. 

    And that is what is dangerous, because he believes it so much, and seeing that he represents a church…I wouldn’t be surprised if he seeks to start his own church someday real soon and have a band of followers.

    And since he is “educated” from a seminary, who is gonna disagree with him?  I put him right up there with Herbert W. Armstrong, and his son, Garner Ted.

    Ed

    ________________________________

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78. Ed,

    Excellent sleuthing! Under the date of August 13, 2009, Matthew did indeed refer to “the lives of ‘great men’, like the Apostle Paul.” Now, I am not going to push Matthew’s inconsistency too far. I actually see it as a sign of intellectual and moral maturity that one is able to embrace convictions that are contrary to those to which they formerly subscribed. In Matthews instance, however, it seems maybe he has gone from questioning Paul’s actions to condemning Paul the man, to indulging a reviling spirit (Paul was “the abusive absentee pastor. . .”) which in turn seems to have caused Matthew to set aside the exegetical principles Dallas Theological Seminary prides itself (or used to pride itself) in promoting.

    The other possibility I can think if is that, while Dallas loudly trumps (trumpeted?) its commitment to rigorous exegetical principles, in reality it was engaged in eisegetical subterfuge–so that Matthew has failed to notice when his own exegesis became eisegesis. I am thinking in particular of Dr. Walvoord’s commentary on the book of Revelation. He wrote with great certainty, but in retrospect it is apparent that he had his mind made up before he ever set words to paper, or even began to examine the apocalyptic book itself.

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79. “”Dear Gary W
    I have learned some new things in the last 5 years. Have you?
    I am certainly not the only person who has seen some of these things, even going back to the Second Century. http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedreading/56-marcionism.html

    Thank you for this list you provided above, which says, QUOTE:
    In addition to the Twelve, the following are also called “apostles” (apostolos in Greek):”
    You can see all those names are from Paul’s letters, except for “Barnabas (Acts 14:3–4, 14;) which was written by Paul’s Gentile friend Luke, who was not an Apostle himself, and referred to “the apostles Barnabas and Paul” but not individually.

    Thank you for proving my point.
    Neither Jesus nor any Original Apostle ever referred to Paul or anyone else outside the 12 as an Apostle in any way shape or form.

    And even the one seeming exception, what Luke wrote in Acts 14, never refers to anyone outside the 12 individually as Apostles. Luke just used the term liberally like Paul, but only temporarily for the mission trip that Barnabas and Paul were sent on together in Acts 13 & 14.

    Luke also wrote Acts 1, 6, 9, 13 & 15, showing the distinction between the Apostles and Barnabas and Paul. Luke never said that Paul was appointed an Apostle by anyone, Luke had no authority to appoint Paul an apostle, and Luke never said that Paul was recognized individually as an apostle by anyone.

    So thank you for helping to prove my point from the text.
    According to Jesus and the Original Apostles, there are only 12 Apostles, and the 12th is Matthias. Their words and actions are completely unanimous in the pages of the Bible, and they certainly knew what an Apostle was better than Paul, or Luke, or you.

    All Hail the Power of JESUS NAME
    Let angels prostrate fall, let angles prostrate fall
    Bring forth the royal diadem
    and crown HIM Lord of All !

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80. Dear Gary W
    Regarding the Church in Corinth, it is infamous as an unhealthy wacky carnal church.
    We have more Bible text written about this one church, and more written specifically TO this one church, than any other church in the Bible.
    So,
    When Paul wrote his two letters to the church, who was in charge of all aspects of the church in Corinth?

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81. Lesson 1 Matthew,

    Changing your mind is the definition of the word REPENT.

    You are not to change your mind of things written in the Bible.  You are to change your understanding of what is said, that you slap your forehand to your forehead and state, “Now I get it!”

    You are doing more than changing your understanding to what is written.  You are changing what is written by stating that it is all a lie and a fabrication. I think you realize by now, you do not move us to REPENT.  But, you will find followers in your cult, those who have itching ears.  Oh, wait…Paul wrote the words “itching ears”.  Ya, he wrote those words for anyone who is gonna follow you.

    Your change of mind is dangerous, given your education and history in church. 

    Ed

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82. Matthew,

    Why is that a concern to you, Matthew?  You are making a story, and an argument where there isn’t one.  You are basing things on assumptions on your part. 

    You are basically doing a “hath God said…?” trick that Satan played on Eve.

    DO NOT play that game with us, Matthew.  We ain’t biting.

    Ed

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83. Dear A. Amos Love
    What you wrote is so true:

    “And some like to follow those with the “Titles.”
    One guy gave himself the “Title”
    Chief Executive Apostle – Pastor – Founder.”

    And Paul the Pharisee, who was not an Apostle, gave himself the “Title”
    “Apostle to the Gentiles”

    In other words, Paul put himself over every person in the world except the Jews, and he also took it upon himself to publically disrespect the Apostles that Jesus appointed like Peter….

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84. Matthew,

    And yet, you disregard what Peter said in his epistle about Paul.  How ironic.

    Ed

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85. To my beloved brother Ed,
    Are you an Apostle too, since I referred to you as beloved brother?
    from your beloved brother Matthew

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86. Hi Julie Anne,
    On April 8 you wrote, QUOTE:
    “Essentially, they believe Calvary Chapel pastors have a direct line with God and it is a case of, “Who are you to question me when I have a direct line with God.” Is this not a recipe for disaster? ”

    Yes. And if you swap out “Calvary Chapel pastors ” from this statement, and swap in “Paul” (the self-appointed Apostle to the Gentiles) it’s the same thing.
    🙂

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87. Matthew,

    Could we at least agree that Jesus was speaking of Paul when He said “he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel”? (Acts 9:15 ESV) Or in case you prefer KJV, “he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel.”

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88. Matthew,

    Where you appeal to a hermeneutic that insists the use of a term is legitimate only as used and applied by Jesus or the original 12 apostles, have you also rejected the doctrine of the trinity?

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89. To God’s Chosen Instrument Gary W
    From God’s Chosen Instrument Matthew

    All true followers of Jesus are “chosen instruments” and either “beloved brothers” or “beloved sisters” in Christ. Samson and the Prophet Jonah and King Solomon were chosen instruments too. (So were some pagan kings, but that is another matter.)

    It was not a requirement of an Apostle to write Scripture. 9 of the 12 Apostles didn’t write Scripture, and Mark and Luke and others who were not apostles did write Scripture. So this same old short list of tired irrelevant objections claiming that others “affirmed Paul’s apostleship.” doesn’t hold water. Paul made up the word “apostleship” and applied it to himself. No one else in the New Testament ever used Paul’s new “word”. Because there is no “apostleship..”

    There are just 12 Apostles, 12 men were walked with Jesus for His entire ministry of 3 1/2 years, so they knew Him and His ways and teachings, and could be faithful witnesses. They were qualified due to their long-term faithful relationship with Jesus, specifically individually appointed, and later recognized as being part of the 12. And there are only 12, no more. Matthias was the 12th. According to the words and actions of Jesus and the Original Apostles, this is the truth. No one in the world has refuted this clear statement of fact about the text of the New Testament, and you are not even attempting to refute it here either.

    Yes we would agree that we should assume “Paul was a chosen instrument,” meaning an actual follower of Jesus and a missionary. Chosen instrument does not mean Apostle. I cannot prove that Paul was not really a follower of Jesus, and this is where I differ from a number of “Anti-Paul” people today on places like JesusWordsOnly.com. I can understand their reasoning. But ultimately, I can’t disprove Paul’s salvation any more than I can with a number of modern “evangelists” today.

    The Bible, and the world today, are filled with carnal immature ignorant followers of Jesus who say, do, and write things that may contain some truth, but also contain a lot of error and carnal thinking. Paul was a travelling evangelist, missionary, speaker, teacher, writer, and abusive absentee leader of the Church in Corinth. The Evangelical world today is filled with many modern “Pauls.” who imitate Paul rather than Jesus. That is the theological root cause of why the church is so sick today.

    Paul was a prolific Christian writer who relentlessly promoted himself, and thought he alone had “the complete revelation”, but really he didn’t know very much, and he had a bad attitude. He didn’t even know the Most Important Commandment according to Jesus.

    Even if you feel you “can’t agree” with me, do you at least have the courage to admit that you can’t prove me wrong from the pages of Scripture?
    Blessings
    Matthew

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90. Here it is again folks.

    Look on Calvary Chapel Abuse website to see what damage he’s done there throwing everyone off topic and making accusations against longtime commentors while trying to convince everyone that Paul isn’t a real apostle and his epistles aren’t inherrant. Ask Alex about it.

    I encourage everyone commenting here to stay on topic and ignore his overtures.

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91. Thanks, Cathryn. I will ask Alex.

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92. The first and greatest Most Important Commandment that Jesus quoted from was:
    “Love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. Impress them on your children. TALK ABOUT THEM when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. [Deuteronomy 6:5-7]

    Calvary Chapel leaders such as Bob Coy actively try to prevent people from discussing the text of Bible and thinking for themselves. They demand to control the conversation, so it’s all “one way from the pulpit,” and they pressure their cult members to ignore anyone with an open Bible who will start discussion about the text. Since their cult teachings won’t stand up in an open discussion, they forbid discussion.

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93. Cathryn has a point. Readers, check out this thread here and see if you notice a similar pattern.

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94. Matthew Perri said to me, mocking my reference to Peter’s reference to Paul:

    “To my beloved brother Ed, Are you an Apostle too, since I referred to you as beloved brother? from your beloved brother Matthew”

    My response to that is: What Epistles of Paul was Peter referring to?  What “HARD THINGS” that Peter said of Paul were hard to be understood? 

    If you believe that Peter was sincere, then tell me what those epistles were that Peter was discussing.  The way that he made reference to Paul’s epistles indicates that the people that Peter was writing to, also read them, too. 

    So, what epistles was Peter discussing?  Where does your research go in that regard? 

    Basically, you are going to do one of them “blame the Catholics” thing, right?  Because the Catholics claim that they are the ones who put the Bible together for us, right?

    You can always tell a cult when the first thing that they will do is to blame it all on the Catholics. 

    Or, do you believe that Peter was referencing the same exact epistles that you object to…BROTHER!  Or, was it other epistles which you haven’t read yet?  Or did you read them?  What did they say?

    Produce Peter’s reference to Paul’s epistles, Matthew.  Put up, or shut up.

    Ed

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95. Matthew, I guess that you missed what John said.  He said that our proof of our loving God is our loving people.

    Therefore, our only law is to love people, which shows people that we love God.

    I just cannot get why and how you don’t get it.

    Ed

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96. Ed
    Despite your rude behavior, I will try to turn the other cheek here as I think Jesus would.

    Peter’s Second letter is short – only 3 chapters. Since Peter was hand-picked by Jesus as leader of the Apostles, was trained by Jesus for 3 1/2 years, and now late in his life he is writing a few things, we should be careful to listen carefully to the nuances of what Peter is saying, and NOT saying. Peter wrote about “PROPHECY of Scripture” in Chapter 1. . (Not “All Scripture” like Paul.)

    In chapter 3:1-2, read very very carefully what exactly Peter is saying, how he is saying it, and what he is NOT saying, about “words spoken in the past by the holy prophets”, vs. “command given through our Lord and Savior through your apostles.”

    This is indirectly disavowing Paul’s claim that “All Scripture is God-breathed.” Think carefully. Analyze it. Paul the Pharisee writing to the church in Corinth “I became your father therefore I urge you to imitate me” is not a “command given through our Lord and Savior through your apostles.” Paul’s words are not the words of God, neither written in his letters nor spoken and recorded by Luke in his biography in Acts.

    Most of 2 Peter chapter 3 is about the end times. Peter making reference to “these matters” that are “hard to understand” [2 Peter 3:16] in Paul’s letters is a reference to things Paul wrote about the end times, if you look at the context. It isn’t a blanket endorsement of everything Paul wrote as being “God-breathed” because it’s “Scripture.” I know that’s the tradition we are a part of. But it’s really a cult-like distortion of one minor point in Scripture out of context.

    The “Letters” by Paul and others in the New Testament are like the “Writings” in the Hebrew Scriptures. Sometimes helpful yes, but sometimes wrong, and not the word of God. They are simply less important than the Testimony of Jesus recorded by Matthew Mark Luke & John.

    We are called to listen to Jesus and follow Jesus first.

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97. All through the day, we should be asking ourselves 2 questions:
    First, how do I love God first? and
    Second, how do I love people second.?

    Jesus said:
    “If you love me, you will obey what I command.” [John 14:15]

    I don’t have a perfect comprehensive definition of what this all means, but clearly, loving God ALWAYS involves our obedience to God, while loving people does not always involve obedience to people. Sometimes it does. But God is always first. And we need to be sure we distinguish between loving God and loving people, even though there is a lot of overlap.

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98. JA,

    You and Cathryn are right. Taking everything in context, including on this thread and the one you link to at 9:55 AM, it is my considered opinion that Matthew is projecting, and is actually guilty of engaging in the very conduct he condemns, when, on the other thread, he accuses somebody “of causing distraction and diversion, with noise and nonsense, to confuse the issue and cover up the truth.” Projection is a common phenomenon with people who cannot help but present themselves as always right and the the other person as always wrong, which is where Matthew appears to me to be coming from (you’ll have to ask the experts how this works). They make good object lessons for anybody who wishes to learn how to identify and deal with the sorts of people you would not want in church leadership. To tell you the truth, I am not really attempting to persuade Matthew of anything. That would be hopeless. Rather, I am testing whether Matthew will respond and react in a manner that is consistent with what I perceive to be his characterological predispositions. It’s not intended to insult or embarrass him. I don’t believe he is capable of being insulted or embarrassed, at least a a conscious level. It’s just that I am testing my theories, theories that are not unrelated to the question of identifying and dealing with people who, in my opinion, should not be church leadership.

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99. Gary W,

    I’m not going to shut down this conversation in case some think it is really important to finish it out. Based on the CCA thread, it likely will continue and so at some point you have to decide for yourself if it is time well spent.

    For me, I am taking this motto to heart: don’t feed the troll.

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100. Matthew Perri,

     You did not answer my question at all.  You skirted the issue altogether. 

     I asked what writings of Paul was Peter discussing.  AND that Peter made his statement KNOWING that others have read them, too.  So, where are those epistles that Peter was discussing. 

     Bottom line, Where are those epistles?  And why don’t you produce them?

     Put up, or shut up.

     Ed

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101. Matthew Perri,

     And John said that in order to prove that you love God first, you love people.  That is why the commandments (PLURAL) is a SINGULAR commandment.  And John certainly shows that the singular commandment satisfies the Commandments (PLURAL).

     I gave you the reference.  So, in regards to Peter’s word about Paul’s epistles, put up, or shut up.

     Ed

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