Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Coy’s Story of Moral Corruption Leads Calvary Chapel Members to Share Their Personal Stories

278 thoughts on “Calvary Chapel Pastor Bob Coy’s Story of Moral Corruption Leads Calvary Chapel Members to Share Their Personal Stories”

1. There may be two problems that lead to a lack of accountability in these churches. The structural one is more obvious. The Moses model fails to hold the pastor accountable to a board or group of elders. There appears to be a cultural one as well in which head pastors are considered to be so important to the continued functioning of the church that much is overlooked, at least until some kind of tipping point is reached.

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2. Right, Marsha, and the Moses Model feeds that that culture of idolizing pastor. I was flabbergasted to read Chuck Smith’s own words to the reporter when he discussed his pastoral position (in this Moses Model article ). Essentially, they believe Calvary Chapel pastors have a direct line with God and it is a case of, “Who are you to question me when I have a direct line with God.” Is this not a recipe for disaster?

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3. There is the problem, too, that the Bible they supposedly believe tells them that the Moses model in the church is that Moses has been replaced by one Head, Jesus Christ, and that we’re not to be called leaders and rabbis and fathers, because we have just one of those, Jesus Christ. We do have fathers and lots of teachers, but they’re not here to lord it over us but to work themselves out of a job, decreasing so that Jesus can increase.

   People who want to take the place of Christ are antichrists. No marvel that the fruit is rotten; it’s a theological problem. And specifically, men that commit adultery with the Lamb’s wife can expect to be given up to adultery with other men’s wives, along with other sexual perversions. It’s rough justice, but it’s justice. Indeed, God is not mocked.

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4. I live in the same county as the Calvary Chapel Vatican (Papa Chuck’s CC). CC has dominated the Christianese AM Radio airwaves around here since the Seventies. And I have always gotten a “bad vibe” about them. Nothing I could put my finger on and say “AHA!”, nothing that could survive the automatic return barrage of Bible Bullets from a CCer, but a general feel of something WRONG. Like CC distills down Fundagelicalism — including its Dark Side — into a concentrated form.

   Well, now that Papa Chuck’s gone, it’s Yugoslavia-after-Tito time. Let the Game of Thrones begin.

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5. There is no more bizarre, anti-Christian ritual in evangelicalism than the expunging of a man’s life work from the church and the internet when he falls. Coy has been deleted from the CCA website and they are wiping the CCFTL site as fast as they can. (Things I Think)

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_censorship_of_images

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6. In addition to the serious Moses Model problem in CC, they got a similar problem and that is that many of the senior CC pastors are vision casters and hence are claiming to receive direct revelation from God that others in the church don’t get. If you oppose their vision or the senior pastor with his vision, you will be disciplined and taken out of the church. CC claims to be in the middle ground between fundamentalism and Pentecostalism but the reality is they are charismatics, believe in modern day prophets and almost every single CC senior pastor I have heard minus a few exceptions claim to speak in tongues and some insists the gift is available to all if they have enough faith.

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7. Andrew, this is fascinating to me. I spent many years (happily, with no spiritual abuse taking place) in an Assembly of God church in which the idea of the pastor as a vision caster just wouldn’t have flown. I never even heard the term. So naturally my first reaction was to think that vision casting isn’t necessarily associated with the Pentecostalism. Then I googled Assembly of God and vision caster and sure enough an AG church’s website comes up where the head pastor is called the chief vision caster. So now I am wondering if this concept is new or whether I somehow missed hearing about it.

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8. Hi Marsha,

   It is fascinating. The vision casting seems to be a corporate model that the church borrowed and then they end up putting their spiritual spin to it. Vision casting has only been around in the last 20 years or so max in the church. I think its scarey stuff to borrow this practice from the corporate business world and apply it to church and use it like prophecy.

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9. The most insightful article on why giving cheap and immediate grace to a fallen pastor is to the detriment of the victims, the pastor’s family, the Body of Christ, and the fallen pastor himself, can be found here: http://michaelnewnham.com

   The article is written by a wife of a previously fallen pastor, who has deep insights into the process by which one must go through to return to spiritual health. She aptly describes the process in detail, bringing to life the real issues at stake … which is not the marriage, nor a return to ministry, nor an efficient process.

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10. This church invites Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to address the congregation FROM THE PULPIT. Calvary churches would never invite Catholic priests to do the same, but what in the world are they doing with non-believing foreign leaders?

    Attended Calvary Chapel myself for 10 years, and for the most part it was unremarkable. Can’t say I saw much abuse, and compared to John MacArthur’s Grace Community Church, people seemed much more laid back, but their fixation on rightwing pro Israel politics became insufferable.

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11. The former pastor of Calvary Chapel of Castle Rock, Colorado, Brian D. Abeyta, fell in a similar way to Bob Coy. Many of the attendees offered quick and cheap grace to cover over everything, even though Abeyta did not actually repent. He was not honest about what he did. Abeyta minimized, blamed his wife, falsely accused his staff when they confronted him and averted telling the truth to a local news source with evasive religious lingo, also known as lying, imo. He needed time to process, realize the damage, feel the anger of those he hurt, and come to grips with the really of his sin. Bob Coy needs this, now.

    Abeyta never showed fruit of a repentance by paying back large sums of money he took/used that he should not have; and he has yet to reach out to the people he spiritually abused to manipulate seemingly to protect his position and income. The amount of wreckage in Abeyta’s wake is beyond what we can calculate. Bob Coy’s is by far greater as Coy’s church was 20,000 in attendance and 30 years old. Abeyta’s was a young and fairly small church.

    To date, Abeyta has yet to reach out to any of the people he creatively (and sometimes overtly) removed from the church. In one case he accused a man of getting too friendly with his wife, all the while he was chasing 4 other women. I don’t know the exact timing, but I do know that Abeyta had (and continues to have) no moral ground upon which to call others out in their sin. Bob Coy even had his own brother on staff stand up before the congregation to publicly confess his moral failure, all the while Bob had his own moral failure issues. As people think through the hypocrisy, they will understandably feel some righteous anger, as many did with Abeyta.

    Abeyta continues to be disqualified for leadership, yet he started a new church, Beauty for Ashes (Lone Tree, CO,) in the same area and filled it with the people who gave him the cheap grace. May the same mistake not be made with Bob Coy.

    Calvary Chapel needs a standard of real accountability for leaders in their churches. When the elders have no power, the board can be fired if they disagree with the pastor, and the people have no membership so they have no legal right to even see the finances, much less have any say, then the church is unguarded from a leader who can take advantage of them in numerous ways. Without these checks and balances, one man cannot reasonably deflect and avoid the many pitfalls of power, money, and rock star status that we see in the Calvary Chapel culture of leadership.

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12. @DavidC:

    This church invites Israel Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to address the congregation FROM THE PULPIT. Calvary churches would never invite Catholic priests to do the same, but what in the world are they doing with non-believing foreign leaders?

    Because Netanyahu is ISRAELI, and Israel is a Fulfillment of End Time Prophecy(TM) that’s needed to kick off The Rapture and Armageddon. Netanyahu’s just another item on the End Time Prophecy Checklist and another piece to move around on the End Time Prophecy Gameboard. That’s all.

    (Can you tell I got messed up BAD by the Gospel According to Hal Lindsay back in the Seventies?)

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13. I’m so sad and devastate to hear this morning in the news over the radio about Pastor Bob Coy. stepping down. Its the best decision that the Pastor made, I feel he needs to spent time in prayers & fasting counseling & more time with his family. perhaps relocate to another state will be best choice. I met Pastor Bob several years ago when he attended Calvary Chapel of Old Bridge, New Jersey, Pastor L. Pulley. and also when ever I’m in south florida. which I happen to be now I’d visited your church. Our family have a second home here in Lake Worth, WPB. & our first home is in Queens,New York, which I attend Christ Tabernacle, in Glendale,Queens,NY Pastor Michael Durso,Sr. Pastor. I was toward that when holding any position in church, we all need real accountability for leaders in any churches.temptation can happen to anyone. No matter what positions we hold, no matter how spiritual we are.the bible says the best time to pray about temptation is before we fall into it. Jesus taught us to pray as a matter of course is a good place to start “Do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one (Matt 6:13). we can call on the name of the Lord for in that. He Himself has suffered, being tempted(Galations 5:1).

    I attend a small church [moderator ed: removed personal info here] what I most like of this church is that they have doors open from 4:45am-6:30am for prayers 7 days of week. there time there 4 or 30 brother & sisters including the pastors, asst pastors, leaders comes for prayers & to hears 10 or 15 mins words of God. we hear so many prayers being answered. what I’m trying to says we needs prays every days not once of a week cause the devil is looking whom he going to attack. They also reaching out for the poor whom can’t read or speak english. this church is bilingual. I will be praying for the Pastors & his family & the other family too & the entire congregation.

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14. Pingback: Mega Church Preacher Bob Coy Caught In What Some Sources Saying Case of Adultery and Porn Addiction | Christian Pundit

15. Lianne’s account is very interesting. Thanks for sharing it here. 🙂

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16. @Judith:

    I was toward that when holding any position in church, we all need real accountability for leaders in any churches.temptation can happen to anyone.

    Problem is “The Moses Model” has no accountability for the pastor/dictator, only POWER. It’s like that joke essay I read in a business magazine some 30 years ago, how the goal of climbing in any organization is Infinite Power and Zero Responsibility. “The Moses Model” doesn’t produce prophets like Moses; it produces Third World Dictators. (But if you’re the Third World Dictator, why change a thing? The system works just fine!)

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17. @Headless

    My bad. What was I thinking? Calvary Chapel would never invite Catholic priests because the Catholic Church is the Whore of the Babylon, but the rebirth of the nation of Israel is the harbinger of the greater things to come.

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18. I had never heard of Bob Coy before, which is why I visited Alex’s web site. It had already disabled comments, so I didn’t help to crash it. We have a Calvary Chapel Church here in my small city in NJ, complete with the dove. A woman with whom I attended nursing school back in the 90s was married to the pastor at the time. I often wonder how she is. She was a devout Christian, and pretty aggressive with her proselytizing. I hope that not all CC churches follow a Moses model. I remember that she was deep into the whole “husband as head of the wife” theology. Which begs the question–why was she pursuing a nursing license in the first place?

    Anyway, I followed the archives to the beginning of Alex’s blog. I remain shocked that this type of abuse can continue to take place when public school teachers are required to report suspected cases of child abuse. Were Alex & his brothers home schooled?

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19. Sheila – I just sent a note to Alex and asked him. I’m pretty sure he was not homeschooled. I’ll correct this if I find out otherwise.

    Oh, and don’t worry – it takes a LOT of people to make a site crash. It wasn’t you!

    I have friends who go to a CC church and their pastor is great. Not all pastors in CC are abusers, just like not all Independent Fundamentalist Baptist pastors are abusers or not all Patriarchs are abusers. However, those who are prone to abuse – those who have something in their psyche that has a need to be in control – will sometimes become abusers and in this Moses Model system, it’s easy to hide for years and years as we have seen in both Grenier and Coy cases.

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20. If Alex was not homeschooled, I’d love to know why no other adult, such as his teacher, reported on his physical injuries. His story made me nauseous. If his plight was ignored by his teachers, then that is not only disturbing, but illegal. I wish more of these abusers and enablers would go to jail.

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21. I just don’t get how these pastors who are given over to their lusts get to keep their jobs for as long as they do. Morality is their business just like money is to a banker. Will a bank take a thief back after a 30 day suspension? Would we take a babysitter back that abused our kids after just a suspension? Everyone of these pastors or boards that give immoral pastors their jobs back are suspect in my mind to be guilty of the same immorality. Why else would they be so easy on them.

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22. Patti, that sure makes sense to me.

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23. JULIE ANNE, There is some evidence that “Moses Model” the TERM and the GOVERNMENT STYLE came from David Moses Berg of the CHILDREN OF GOD…. which was famous for teaching the cult members to have sex with men to evangelize them and to have sex with their children at an early age.

    One thing is certain:
    EVERY cult prefers the Moses Model form of governance.

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24. Patti, good points. And I would add, that in addition to pursuing their lust, it’s about their ego and insecurity.

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25. @jack:

    JULIE ANNE, There is some evidence that “Moses Model” the TERM and the GOVERNMENT STYLE came from David Moses Berg of the CHILDREN OF GOD…. which was famous for teaching the cult members to have sex with men to evangelize them and to have sex with their children at an early age.

    Oh, yeah.
    Mo David and the COGs, of “flirty fishing” fame.
    One Weird Dude and One Weird Group.
    Didn’t all the Christians scream “CULT! CULT! CULT!” about this guy?
    (When they weren’t cribbing from him, that is.)

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26. @Anon2:

    Patti, good points. And I would add, that in addition to pursuing their lust, it’s about their ego and insecurity.

    Many years ago after a D&D game, my DM and I were talking about cults, and he put it this way:

    “Most cults are started so the cult leader can (1) get rich, (2) get laid, or (3) both.”

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27. @Shiela0405:

    If Alex was not homeschooled, I’d love to know why no other adult, such as his teacher, reported on his physical injuries.

    Teacher was Calvary Chapel?

    Actual search result headlines:
    “GOD’s Law vs Man’s Law…”
    “Here are several examples of when Gods people broke man’s law to keep God’s…”
    “Man’s Law Versus God’s Law. The Commandments and Doctrines of Men…”
    “Word of God trumps man’s laws every time…”
    And that was only the first page!

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28. I’ve read several of the stories about Calvary Chapel pastors caught in “moral failure,” both here and elsewhere. Quite frankly, the problem goes far beyond Calvary Chapel; Bob Coy is the sixth megachurch pastor I’m aware of in less than two years who’s resigned or been fired for engaging in affairs. Even worse, one of those six is now in prison and another is under indictment for conduct involving minors.

    I can’t help but contrast those instances with the handling of another case with which I’m familiar. A congregation dismissed an assistant pastor several years ago for using his work computer to access Internet pornography, a story which made the local paper. He was subsequently defrocked. Why he was defrocked for porn while other pastors can, at least for a while, get away with a whole lot worse is a mystery to me.

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29. singleman, I don’t know the particulars but one thing I can say is not all porn is created equal. For instance if its porn involving minors, its a felony and the perpetrator may go to jail.

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30. Julie Anne said, “…those who are prone to abuse – those who have something in their psyche that has a need to be in control – will sometimes become abusers and in this Moses Model system, …”

    The job description gives the Calvary Chapel pastor all the control without any accountability in the Moses Model. He gets to control the money and the decisions since no one is “over” him (no one can fire him, that he can’t fire first; there is no oversight or disciplinary arm of the Calvary Chapels since they are all completely independent these days.)

    This can do two things:
    1. Draw men with narcissistic tendencies; and then foster and enable them to become become a full-blown narcissist.
    2. Take good men and sorely tempt them to live as a self-serving king.

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31. Not only “can” it do these things but I would say it “has” done these things if not “usually” does these things.

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32. Porn is a serious issue. A person can’t unsee what they’ve seen and it plays out over and over in the mind. Porn does damage that often plays out in a physical sense.

    One of my small group leaders said he thought his porn use was just between him and the computer till one day he found himself reaching out for a young girl in a mall. He says he felt out-of-control. Others say it was what laid the ground work for their affairs, and statistics tell us that it can’t be erased so it can come back to tempt, haunt, and invade marriage beds. Psychologists and spouses often say that the one with a mind full of porn is unable to have real intimacy. They can do the act, but they are not “there,” they are somewhere else in their mind.

    My guess, is that if you discover someone is viewing porn, there are possibilities they are doing more now, or will in the future. Either way, they are disqualified from ministry and need to get some help to deal with their issues. It’s not a victimless act.

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33. Andrew, I agree. I think the Moses Model usually corrupts a man.

    “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.”–Lord Acton 1887

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34. Andrew, to the best of my knowledge no criminal charges were ever filed in the case. Current American jurisprudence treats porn involving individuals 18 or older as constitutionally protected free speech. Whether that should be the case is a discussion for another time and place.

    It appears I need to clarify that I wasn’t defending porn. I was simply contrasting the handling of the respective cases.

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35. Katie, the amazing thing to me is my CC pastor would quote that “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.

    But it didn’t seem to register with him that this applied to him. He was quite arrogant. He highly admired Coy and is patterning his church after CCFL with his “visions” of multi-sites. I think maybe he should reconsider but he won’t listen to me. However, maybe he will have same fate as Coy. Time will tell.

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36. Andrew, in much the same way many pastors are shaking their head about Coy, thinking it could never happen to them.

    Of course, there are the many who had a shiver go up their spine because they don’t want to get caught, themselves; which is exactly why God gave us church discipline … to warn others.

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37. I hear ya, Singleman. I just wanted to make it clear to readers.

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38. Singleman, you bring up an important point that I have missed over the years. In CC, Chuck Smith made discipline of the pastors something that would only happen if the pastor was guilty in a court of law (not biblical.) This means that even if a pastor was caught using porn, he could just get that covered up and continue on.

    Unless Coy went against the norm of the Moses Model and had church discipline built into the by-laws (which I would not believe unless I see it in writing,) then the news of his porn issue is not what is actually forcing him to leave, it would be something they have not named, most likely.

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39. I was a bit surprised I needed to issue a clarification. I hope we can all agree that pornography is none of the things Paul tells us to focus on in Philippians 4:8.

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40. Katie,

    Actually church discipline is something that is non existent in the CC world other than what the senior pastor says. And this happens a lot. If you challenge the pastor, you will be given a restraining order to not go on church property until you submit to pastor. You will never see that person again. Out of sight, out of mind and the congregation doesn’t know any better. This is the entire problem. Church discipline is to be a function of the entire church not what the top dog says which in the case of Coy was the one that needed to be disciplined.

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41. It will be interesting to see how things pan out with this case. I’ve been hearing rumblings that it’s much more than what was released – – and has been going on for many years. That seems to be the case on many of these stories.

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42. I went to Calvary Chapel Back in 1996. There was talk back then that Bob was having an affair. No one did anything about it then. It’s all about the power. Let’s face it. Bob was a cash cow. That is why I walked away from his church.

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43. When I talk about my CC pastor fail, I can only point to the obvious and public info. But the public stuff is just a display of symptoms of a much greater problem. The spiritual abuse that preceded the moral failures was immense, yet still a symptom of heart issues.

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44. No problem, Singleman, we all have to clarify. I may have read it wrong, but we’re all on the same page.

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45. It will be interesting to see how things pan out with this case. I’ve been hearing rumblings that it’s much more than what was released – – and has been going on for many years. That seems to be the case on many of these stories.
    ________________________________________________________________

    I’m convinced that CC will fall apart at the seams if all the truth came out. The whole thing would dismantle rather quickly in my estimation. But you are right, it will be very interesting if there is any kind of end to this drama.

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46. Considering the amount of effort I saw displayed by people who were hell-bent on defending the CC ministry even in the face of grave facts of serious, habitual sins of a pastor, I don’t think CC would fall apart. I think it would diminish to a degree, as the IFB culture did. But if we learn from the history of IFB’s, we see that there are still strongholds to this day, though most were severely weakened, thankfully.

    My observation is that people really want to be “right.” They want their choice of church to be “right,” their pastor to be “right,” their group to be “right.” It’s a pride issue. I fell prey to it early on. I was humiliated by it, thankfully. But many have not suffered as such and continue to hang on to their ego, their reputation, and their need to be “right.” The willful blindness is almost spectacular to watch.

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47. Katie, you might be right but if you think about it, Chuck Smith was the glue that held CC together until he died. He set up the CCA board of elite pastors to be his replacement. Little by little through attrition and moral failures such as Coy’s, the list keeps getting smaller. They have no process to find a replacement for Coy or for that matter anyone on the board. They claim they are not a denomination so there will never be a way to elect a new board member for replacement unless they go against being a denomination which is anathema to CC. I believe CC will eventually completely fizzle out of existence.

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48. You have a point, Andrew.

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49. A post left on Phoenix Preacher found here: http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=17102 At comment #385

    Heretic says:
    April 9, 2014 at 12:38 pm
    It’s crazy that people think Bob Coy had ONE affair, caught a conscience about it and decided to step down. He’s being lauded in many places as “admirable” for that.

    He was caught.

    One of the women confided in her friend, and her friend confessed to another high profile pastor in the area that had a friendship with Coy. THAT pastor contacted the board. This got the ball rolling and ultimately he resigned because the board would’ve gone public if he didn’t. The dicey part for this church is that there is a chance that some leadership people knew this was an ongoing problem for years.

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50. I don’t know if “Heretic” has evidence or not? But I keep reading these kind of posts indicating more is coming. I think PhxP even said there will be more info in a few days. Interesting …

    Lesson: Never take what is said from the pulpit about repentance at face value.

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51. @Andrew:

    Katie, you might be right but if you think about it, Chuck Smith was the glue that held CC together until he died. … I believe CC will eventually completely fizzle out of existence.

    Isn’t that characteristic of a Personality CULT? Once the Cult Founder dies, everything just kind of falls apart?

    Not every Joseph Smith is followed by a Brigham Young who can turn a short-term cult into a self-sustaining religion for the long haul. It’s actually kind of rare.

    And sometimes like Jonestown or Heaven’s Gate (i.e. the Bo-Peepers), the cult leader actively takes his cult with him.

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52. @Katie:

    “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.”–Lord Acton 1887

    I prefer the corollary by Frank Herbert (author of Dune):

    “It’s not so much that power tends to corrupt as power tends to attract the already-corrupted and the easily-corruptible.”

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53. He is a recovering drug addict who needed to be in N>A not preaching

    Mod note: Changed name to Dee 2 so as not to confuse with Dee of Wartburg Watch blog.

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54. This is a man who never went through recovery from drugs he just capitalized on
    other addicts by preaching he needs daily na meetings

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55. H.U.G., I see your point.

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56. As for the drug addicts who turned pastor in practically minutes …

    CC pastor Bob Grenier got off drugs and into the pastorate in record time.
    My last CC had a youth pastor that had only been a Christian and off drugs for 2 years; and only in a Bible teaching church for one year. The kids new more than he did.
    Many of the CC pastors, especially the originals, were straight out of the drug culture, such as Bob Coy and Skip Heitzig.

    These men certainly did need NA, a recovery time, and time to make some things right since addiction hurts others. Instead, these men traded in one addiction for another. They were novices in the ministry. And addictions stunt one’s growth, so they needed to do some growing up, too.

    This is just common sense, not to mention no novices is a requirement in the Bible.

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57. “Isn’t that characteristic of a Personality CULT? Once the Cult Founder dies, everything just kind of falls apart?”

    And this can take a long time. Often the cult of personality chooses their successor and grooms them to take over. Sometimes this works for a long while and sometimes not.

    In fact, things can be falling apart at the top and the pew sitter won’t know it for years. It is amazing what can be kept hidden from those who pay the bills and salaries and for how long. It is all part of the game of these guys making a nice living off Jesus’ Name.

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58. What was it Lincoln said? Not sure if this is word for word but something like:

    If you want to know the true character of a man, don’t send him adversity but give him power.

    We see this coming true all over what passes for Christendom.

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59. “This is a man who never went through recovery from drugs he just capitalized on
    other addicts by preaching he needs daily na meetings”

    Yes, I just said something like this yesterday on the phoenixpreacher.

    I have met SO MANY Bob Coy disciples. And they all say the same thing. “Bob is so funny!!!”.

    But what they also all have in common, is a severe Biblical illiteracy. None of them know the Bible at all. And many of them had live-in girlfriends and boyfriends when I knew them, with no intention of getting right.

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60. I too used to go to this CC Ft. Lauderdale. I stopped about 10 yrs ago. No Meat. Repeat Sermons. Then something hit me. Why those Pillars inside that Church? Why was it built exactly like the one in CA. , which I did not even know until I saw that Chuck Smith died. Think about it. Why must they have the same building plans? Well, I kept putting things together, searching and praying for answers. Those “pillars” inside that church are not needed at all to hold up the ceiling. They are there on purpose. Half Circle seating style surrounding the stage area. Outside the Center of the Auditorium there are two more pillars… then you realize the layout of the horizontal hallways… the placement of the fish tank…. If you picture it in your mind… it is the design of the Cross of Lorraine..extending out from the bottom of this half moon seating style. Go search what the cross of Lorraine is all about. Chuck Smith – Chuck Missler – Billy Graham – Knights of Malta. — You have to go back to the 1970’s to discover the roots of this EVIL Church. Yes, they LIE, LIE, LIE. They have all those poor people Believing LIES straight from Hell.
    They are there to convince everyone that “All Israel will be saved” – They push the PRE- TRIB rapture LIE. They use aromatherapy, or they used to. I noticed a fine mist coming down from the ceiling every once and a while, it smelled good. Also, HUMOR is one of Satan’s tools … so that you release “feel good” endorphins… and fall for the LIES easier. If any part of the content of What you believe about GOD is a lie,,, then Satan has you. I know. I had to un-do all this damage they taught. Thank God I found the truth. If you Love the Truth… go to voiceofelijah.org… start reading and learning for yourself. That Church is built in the shape of an Ancient Pagan Temple. It took me 2 years of praying over all these things to GET IT. They pushed the Left Behind Series by Tim Lahaye – go to Wolves in Sheeps Clothing – go learn about Tim Lahaye and Kay Arthur – all the satanic symbols on their books. Go listen to John Todd on You tube before they remove it!! You will hear his testimony about Chuck Smith and where he got the money to start CC and WHY.
    Bob Coy Came out of Columbia Records – supposedly – at 23? really? He must have had some connections to have such an impressive job at such a young age!!!
    No ONE gets a job like that without connections. I really hope you see this for What it REALLY WAS ! A well – orchestrated, well-planned OPERATION , To Fool Christians into believing the coming Anti-Christ is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ !!!! That is there AGENDA. They are part of the STRONG DELUSION, that Jesus Warns us about !!! Please, Please, UNDO the damage to yourselves!!!

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61. Help Find Truth: Oh please! John Todd. Really?

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62. The problem is not just CC, it is with Christianity as a whole. Whenever a church wants to become “relevant, seeker sensitive, seeker friendly, watered down” and begins to use the marketing and advertising used in the world (which is manipulative and corrupt), this is what you will find. Building churches is the goal of many pastors, they are more concerned with headcount and bottom line. The print material, media and all the other things designed to invoke a feeling and increase donations (which is not just a problem in the church but with Christian organizations as a whole) are the same tactics used by corporations and companies seeking customers. The church needs to look at itself and stop acting like the world. Never should one person be exalted and their images plastered on sites and print media as if that person were the reason we are saved. These problems you cite are not limited to the CC brand. I never forget an unbeliever said to me “it is the marketing of Christianity” and that about sums it up. I am convinced that this is why house churches are popping up all over the country. We are sick of the commercialism.

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63. JOHN TODD?
    “Just like Francis E Dec, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!” Todd?
    Got into a backstage fight with Mike Warnke over “You Stole My Shtick!” Todd?
    Convicted “University of South Carolina Rapist” Todd?
    Source for two Jack Chick tracts Todd?

    Here’s the first two things that came up on a Websearch about him:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Todd_(occultist)http://xfamily.org/index.php/John_Todd

    And the Cornerstone article where I first heard about him:
    http://www.icyte.com/system/snapshots/fs1/0/0/5/4/00543e12a9048eb881dbc3186b47c4b694ac5967/index.html

    Now THAT was One Weird Dude. With a Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory second only to Francis E Dec’s Communist Gangster Computer God in sheer over-the-top WEIRDNESS. Jimmy Carter making himself dictator via martial law and letting Charles Manson out of prison to lead army of 200,000 bikers on Helter Skelter until nothing’s left standing over two inches high south of Mason-Dixon from the Atlantic to the Rockies (i.e. the Bible Belt). All under direct orders from the Illuminati who themselves are under direct orders from SATAN. And only John Todd KNOWS What’s REALLY Going On. Buy John Todd’s SURVIVAL Newsletter and share in his Special Gnosis!

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64. John Todd now that is a blast from the past.

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65. I am a Calvary Chapel guy and I am as saddened by the Bob Coy fiasco as anyone. However, the problem goes much beyond problems with the CC model. Using this as an excuse to throw stones at others is simply pathetic.

    Any Christian, whether they are a leader or not, who allows lust to thrive inside is not pleasing God. Clean the inside. Those who walk in the Spirit will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

    Jim Vander Spek overcoming-lust.com http://www.overcoming-lust.com/

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66. Two things: (1) Numbers, for the sake of numbers alone, are no sign that God is at work; in fact, these days, the larger the church, the more cautious one should be; and (2) the root problem here is that Coy preached and lived an easy-believism Gospel that demanded no true repentance; no fear of God; and no holy living.

    It’s sad. But, it is true. And I pray that God, in His mercy, will restore Coy and those harmed by Coy’s sin.

    By the way, it’s not a “moral failing.” It’s sin–adultery, to be exact. The first step to restoring is acknowledging the sin, and there’s a step even before that: recognizing it and calling it what it is. I see nowhere in the Old or New Testaments where the Holy Spirit referred to adultery as anything but adultery or sin.

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67. The trouble is, too many pastors are trying to “be like Paul”, the abusive absentee pastor of the church in Corinth.

    BOSS PAUL THE PHARISEE
    [sing it to the tune of “Rapture” by Blondie]

    I’m Boss Paul, the Pharisee
    My hypocrisy’s plain for the world to see
    I travel the land and travel the sea
    to make a convert who is just like ME

    “All have sinned” – we know that’s true
    but it never means ME – it only means YOU
    My sins are all theoretical
    “I’m the worst of sinners”- but don’t ask where

    To be more like Jesus is what some strive
    except for me – I’ve already arrived
    I’m the perfect model since the road to Damascus
    What were Paul’s sins? Don’t ask us!

    I justify everything I do
    If I testify about myself it MUST be true
    I’m the only man in all history
    whose testimony doesn’t need two or three

    If I did something it MUST be right
    Don’t use the Scripture to shed any light
    Don’t do as I say, do as I do
    and then you can be a Pharisee too.

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68. The Women in our Christian churches are really, really losing trust in the given patriarchy.
    Please see; Christians for Bibilcal Equality, CBE.
    I find it ironic that the leaders are more willing to reinstate a fallen male teacher, than to let a God fearing righteous women teach us.
    I have been told that men feel they have nothing to learn from women.
    We don’t restrict blacks or Asians from teaching the church, so why do we still prohibit women form doing so? WE don’t condone slavery (even though it is in scripture} so whey do we still close the door to women teachers?

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69. Good point.
    By the way, history shows that most major cults have been started by MEN, who were usually exploiting Women;
    Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Mohammed, Sidartha Buddah, Heavens Gate of SD.,
    Jim Jones, David Koresh… .. need I name more???
    SO please don’t tell us that women are, “more likely to be deceived”

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70. Thanks Jim Vander Speck.
    Good comments.

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71. Jesus is our pattern – not Paul. Here is a parable in the form of a “Letter” to illustrate what happens if you follow the wrong pattern.

    Letter to the Angelenos
    Setting and context: Los Angeles California, Summer 2009. Due to lack of rain, there is a water shortage.

    The Mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaraigosa, preached that homeowners should only water their lawns 2 days a week, not every day, in order to save water. But after that, a TV news crew camped out 24/7 at the mayor’s house, and found that the mayor’s own lawn was being watered every day. Now, it has come to the mayor’s attention that some other homeowners are also watering their lawns every day again.

    The mayor could write a letter to the homeowners of Los Angeles about the need for water rationing. If he decided to use the life of the Paul the Pharisee as his example, and he wanted to “be like Paul,” he could write the letter below, using Paul’s letter to the Galatians as his pattern.

    TEXT OF LETTER TO THE ANGELENOS

    Antonio Villaraigosa, Mayor of Los Angeles,
    To the homeowners of Los Angeles:

    I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the 2-day-a-week plan for watering your lawns. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion. But even if we or an angel from heaven should tell you to stop the 2-day-a-week water-rationing plan, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody should tell you a different message, let him be eternally condemned! Not even my personal staff members at City Hall are watering their own lawns every day.

    You foolish Angelenos! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes I clearly explained the need for water rationing. I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. What has happened to all your joy? Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth? How I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!

    Mark my words! I, Antonio Villaraigosa, tell you that if you water your lawn every day, your life in Los Angeles will be of no value at all. You have fallen away from grace. For in Los Angeles, neither a green lawn nor a brown lawn has any value. You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the 2-day-a-week water-rationing plan? A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty whoever he may be. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and turn their lawns into swamps!

    Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to water your lawn every day. The only reason they do this is to avoid being persecuted for having a brown lawn. In Los Angeles, neither a green lawn nor a brown lawn means anything.

    Finally, let no one cause me trouble, for I’ve suffered a lot for the City of Los Angeles. Do as I say, not as I did. How dare you ask me why I was watering my own lawn every day?
    Regards,
    The Mayor of Los Angeles – Antonio Villaraigosa

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72. Matthew Perri

    Two creative, and well crafted, comments…

    BUT – Huh???

    I kinda like, and agree, when you write…
    “Jesus is our pattern – not Paul.”

    I might be a little slow on the up-take today…
    BUT – I have NO idea what the rest of your two comments mean.

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73. Amos, he didn’t spell it out but I think he was getting at how absurd it would be if we all took the mayor’s comments as ‘gospel’ and limited our lawn watering for all time whether there was a drought or not.

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74. Marsha

    Thanks for trying to help – BUT…
    Both comments by Matthew Perri seem to me to be about Paul.
    I could be wrong – but – It sounds like Matthew Perri does NOT like Paul – At ALL. 😉

    The first comment @ APRIL 15, 2014 @ 10:49 PM…
    Matthew Perri – Calls Paul – “the abusive absentee pastor”

    “The trouble is, too many pastors are trying to “be like Paul”, the abusive absentee pastor of the church in Corinth.”

    And, I was wondering why? He calls Paul – “the abusive absentee pastor”
    Especially since Paul, and the Bible, never calls Paul – pastor.

    And the second comment @ APRIL 16, 2014 @ 7:08 PM…
    Matthew Perri – Seems to associate Paul with the Mayor of Los Angeles…
    Who tells the folks one thing to conserve water, But, waters his own lawn a lot.

    And, I do NOT, can Not, Not able to, make the connection…
    And need a little help. Maybe, a lot of help… 😉

    Why is Matthew Perri picking on, saying NOT nice things, about Paul?

    If he has a reasonable explanation I wouldn’t mind hearing and discussing it. 😉

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75. Marsha

    And I kinda agree with Matthew Perri, (but NOT sure,) when he writes…

    “The trouble is, too many pastors are trying to “be like Paul”

    That has been my experience also – and – In my experience…
    “too many pastors,” “Ignore” and “Twist” what Jesus said, did, and taught…
    His Disciples. – “trying to “be like Paul” 😉

    And I was hoping for a more complete explanation.

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76. Hi I dont know if I should post since I disagree with most of the responses but two problems with the article and many comments come to mind.
    1. Moses style is responsible. I just cant buy it. I realize you believe this gives the pastor too much power, but really its just a different style of church government with its own pros and cons. One of the pros is that it cuts down on catty politics in the church when decisions need to be made. At every CC I’ve gone to, there IS a board of elders. They just dont make the same decisions a Lutheran board or a Presbyterian board would make. And yes, part of the reason they are there is to hold eachother including the pastor accountable. When elders are chosen the church asks anyone to diclose any problems someone may have with them before they are appointed. Not a perfect system, but what is? The other reason I just cant see it is that pastors from every kind of church fall into this type of sin. You think a CC pastor is having an affair because he thinks he’s so special? No, hes doing it like every other sinner, ashamed, hoping someone won’t find out, questioning his faith, maybe (hopefully) confessing his sin and facing the consequenses.

    2. Title: The moral scandal of mega-church pastor Bob Coy “leads others to come forward to tell their personal stories of corruption and abuse among the Calvary Chapel franchise of churches.” Every article I’ve read list these TWO people as examples of “others”. I feel their stories are relevant and real but its certainly not a flood of people from the 20000 at Fort Lauderdale. How many people could I drag up from ANY church denomination that have similar stories? I’m actually shocked there are ONLY two referenced from the blog, one previous poster who said he is aware of another CC pastor in a similar sin and one person who was quoted (in a different article) as saying “I’m not surprised.” I’m sure you can get more stories…as I could find countless against any other church. (I feel for the woman who got divorced and found out the counselor knew about husband’s pornography, I really do. This could have happend at many churches -even if she went to a secular counselor -would that counselor have disclosed to her what her husband told them in confidence? Maybe they encouraged him to tell her, maybe he didn’t…)

    Calvary pastors are huge on quoting 1 John 1:8-10 To sum up -its because Bob Coy is a sinner and made a huge stupid mistake -not because of what church he ran.

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77. R.Z.

    Welcome – And – Dis-agree all you like… 😉
    You have stated your position in a well thought out and respectful manner.

    And, You seem to know a lot about, have experience with, the CC network.

    And you also mention Bible verses, pastors, churches…
    “Calvary pastors are huge on quoting 1 John 1:8-10 To sum up -its because Bob Coy is a sinner and made a huge stupid mistake -not because of what church he ran.”

    Was wondering…

    Have you done your own study, research? On pastors? On churches?
    I mean from the Bible? NOT what CC pastors, CC churches, taught you.

    What does the Bible say about pastors? About pastors running churches?
    Makes an interesting study. 😉

    Here’s some questions to ask as you check out pastors. And churches…

    In the Bible…
    How many of His Disciples are called – pastor/leader?
    How many of His Disciples call another Disciple – pastor/leader?
    How many of His Disciples have the “Title/Position” – pastor/leader?
    How many of His Disciples are ordained as a – pastor/leader?
    How many of His Disciples are, Hired or Fired, as a – pastor/leader?

    How many of His Disciples are…
    Paid, Professional, Pastors, in Pulpits, Preaching, to People, in Pews?

    How many congregations, groups, in the Bible, are “led” by a pastor/leader?

    And every pastor I’ve met also has the “Title” Reverend.
    Can’t seem to find anyone with the “Title” Reverend in the Bible either.

    And, Who are “The Lost” according to CC pastors? CC churches?

    Jer 50:6
    “My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
    **THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*

    1 Pet 2:25
    For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
    BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

    I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…

    {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}

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78. Here’s my 2cents, probably more than what it’s worth. I came to believe and follow Jesus as my Lord and Savior despite many confusing messages and contrary desires while growing up. The power of the Holy Spirit and the Word of truth are what convinced me of my sin and blindness. I’ve attended many churches and several Calvary Chapels over the years. I tend to think that there is far too much emphasis on the personality and “vision” of the lead Pastor- but that’s to be expected because he is usually the one who started a church and became popular enough for people to join in with his ideas and persuasion. The real issue is that many modern churches seem to me to feel like they must provide another form of entertainment for people to want to give up their worldly pursuits for a little time once or maybe twice a week. What we see is the development of bigger and more sophisticated churches that are pretty much set up to be like going to a concert and listening to a professional if not engaging or entertaining speaker, with baby-sitting built in and then grab a latte and a donut and woosh file out the parking lot and get on with your worldly life. I’m not against church or the Bible by any means but I think smaller bodies built upon God’s Spirit, His Word, and ordinary everyday people praying for one another (not just the Pastors up front) and EVERYONE learning what and how to use their gifts and lives to minister and share the love and grace of God with each other and the lost all around us. But I’m afraid it’s too late for our country and it will take something really big to knock people off the amusement park ride of entertainment in every aspect of life. Most need to get back to the milk of God’s goodness before we can get to the meat of revival in this land. That’s my 1cent opinion-about what it’s worth:)
    ~Praise Jesus EVERYDAY (not just on Sunday and Holidays)!!!

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79. All that is happening with pastors of mega churches and teachers of God’s word is a fulfillment of scripture. Why should we be surprised? We’ve been living in the last days since Jesus ascended. The corruption of His Church (body) is nothing new. Read Revelation. Just keep in mind the resurrection of Lazarus. We are all incapable of doing any good on our own! May God the Father be praised through Jesus His one and only Son, by the power of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

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80. In 1993 pastor Bob prayed with me in front of his new Coconut Creek home, as my own life was in the midst of a then messy turmoil of a unfaithful spouse. He was a man of GOD then and he is a man of GOD Now! We as Christians are saved eternal, saved from each other and saved from our selves. We are all FALLEN and need a Savior….Satan loves nothing more than to see a man of God fall and watch the ripples of dismay among the believers thus rendering the ministry in a voided shadow of regret and sorrow. The late Howard G. Hendricks (1924–2013) once spoke to our class of young aspiring novice preachers ….” The down fall of each and every one of you future pastors here today will be Sloth, Silver, Self, Sex….and Satan will delight as you stumble, tumble, mumble and fumble your way back to christian forgiveness” We follow JESUS not men….truth is eternal and this life is but a blink of the eye. Pastor Bob’s life is hid with Christ in GOD….so ye who have no sin cast the first stone. Pray for this wonderful servant of Christ and recall every thing that he has done for the LORD over the nearly 30 years of ministry.
    Christ said “It is Finished” and the wages of sin HE PAID IN FULL! (even this one)
    I’ve often heard some really cool explanations around the meaning for the greek word Τετέλεσται in the New Testament where Jesus said, “It is Finished”. The particular illustration I’m talking about I’ve heard pulled from Colossians 2:13-14, where Paul talks about the “handwriting of debts against us.” What I’ve heard is that Paul is actually referring to a common practice at the time where criminals serving time in jail would have their crimes listed on a note that was posted at the prison where they were kept, and it correlated the crimes to the amount of punishment they were to serve. Then, at the end of their sentence, the jail keeper would stamp the paper with “Τετέλεσται”, meaning “PAID IN FULL.” So the apparent correlation with Christ’s redemptive work of atonement is that He served our prison sentence for us, and when He cried out, “IT IS FINISHED”, this is exactly what he was alluding to.
    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres…..Love covers a multitude of sins.This is what Pastor Bob and his Family need NOW.

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81. To A. Amos Love,
    Regarding my 2 posts a month ago, and your multiple responses.

    Sorry for the delay – I didn’t realize anyone responded.
    Try comparing Paul’s letter to the Galatians with the “Letter to the Angelenos” that I wrote.
    And ask yourself: When Paul wrote his two letters to the Church in Corinth, who was in control of all aspects of the church, without delegating any authority at all to anyone else, and was this overseer in a position to be “hospitable”?
    HINT:
    You don’t need to rip up the carpet and look for fire ants with a magnifying glass. Jumbo the Elephant is dancing the Cha Cha Cha all over the living room, tooting his own horn in everyone else’s ear over and over and trampling everyone in sight. 🙂

    Which is the most important?
    Jesus was asked twice, by two different men, the same basic question about which is the most important or greatest commandment in the Law. Here is how Jesus answered that question:

    #1
    “One of the teachers of the law… asked him [Jesus],
    ‘Of all the commandments, which is the most important?’

    “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “ is this: ‘Hear, of Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than THESE.” [Mark 12:28-31, Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18]

    #2
    …an expert in the law, tested him [Jesus] with this question: ‘Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?’”

    Jesus replied: “’Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO commandments.” [Matthew 22:36-40, Deuteronomy 6:5, Leviticus 19:18]

    But in contrast with Jesus, Paul the Pharisee didn’t know the greatest, most important, first commandment according to Jesus. Paul made up his own rule. Paul wrote:
    “The entire law is summed up in a SINGLE command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’” [Galatians 5:14, Leviticus 19:18]

    And again, Paul wrote:
    “He who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not covet, and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this ONE RULE: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.” [Romans 13:8-10, Leviticus 19:18]

    Jesus said it’s TWO commandments, with the greatest, most important, first command to
    .1) first, love God with everything you’ve got, and
    .2) second, love people.
    Paul said no, it ONE commandment- to love people.

    This is very similar to The Beatles- “All you need is love. Love is all you need. Love, Love, Love.” (In other words, the second commandment, the love of man, without the love of God. Love as me, myself and I define love to be, and continuously redefined by sinful men.)

    In essence, it is also the same principle as what Eve did in the Garden of Eden, forgetting about the Tree of Life, which is the first tree in the middle of the Garden, and instead referring to the second tree as “the tree that is in the middle of the garden.” [Genesis 3:3 & 2:9 2:17, 3:24]

    Kind of like the Pharisees with Jesus, who were pushing the false idea that we can consider ONE commandment in the Law, alone in isolation, to be “the greatest commandment in the Law.”

    Or like today, false teachers in the Chrislam – Purpose Driven – Seeker Sensitive – Emergent – Liberal – Ecumenical – New Age – world church movement pushing the false idea that the ONE RULE is “Loving God and Neighbor together.”

    The Lord God Jesus the Jewish Messiah, Son of Yahweh the Most High God of Israel, said:
    “All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO commandments.”
    Not one. TWO.

    Sometimes, Paul was wrong. Jesus is always right. I’m following Jesus.

    Here are answers to 2 common objections:
    .a) What about the so-called “Golden Rule”?
    Jesus spoke the 3 chapters of the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7, including 7:12. Jesus didn’t make PART of this one verse out of context into “The Golden Rule” or “one rule.” Jesus did not use the term “Golden Rule,” it’s simply a tradition of men. The sentence begins with “So” in the NIV and Amplified Bibles, and “Therefore’ in the NASB and King James Bibles, which ties 7:12 to the previous sentences. So 7:12 cannot stand alone as One Commandment.

    .b) What about the so-called “Great Commission”?
    Jesus spoke the words recorded in Matthew 28:18-20, including “make disciples of all nations.” Jesus never used the term “Great Commission,” it’s simply a tradition of men. Yes I agree it’s a commandment given by Jesus, it’s not optional, and it applies to us today. We need to carry this out, with our own God-given abilities and talents, using the skills, and circumstances we have. But we don’t need to put words in the mouth of Jesus, we can let Jesus speak for himself, and we can listen to Him – and obey Him.

    Evangelism is part of the Second Commandment given by Jesus, to Love people. Evangelism is not the most important commandment, and it isn’t the entire Second Commandment. So if our priorities are “The Great Commission and the Great Commandment,” we have our priorities upside down and confused, and we are not listening to the voice of Jesus. Never mind what Paul said. Let’s listen to the voice of Jesus first, and get our priorities straight.

    The people who will protest most loudly against this truth are the modern “Pauls:” traveling evangelists, speakers, writers, abusive absentee mega-church pastors, Crusaders, and self-appointed “apostles” like Paul, who find it “profitable” to “be like Paul” rather than follow Jesus the Jewish Messiah.

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82. @ Linkletter Long Beach.

    That was one very big long apologetic for a serial adulterer. I used to enjoy Coy’s preaching on TV, but after finding out he had affairs on his wife with two different women, and IIRC, he also admitted to having an intense pr0n addiction(?), I have lost a lot of respect for the guy.

    I get that Christianity teaches God forgives people of their sin but I always find it annoying when Christians sit around writing long winded, sappy apologies (defenses) for guys like Coy who are serial cheaters, or who stress the all “aw, we all make mistakes, let’s cut him some slack” type response. If the guy had cheated one time with one lady, I could chalk it up to an “Aw, he made a mistake,” but two women over X years and an apparent pr)n addiction?

    I don’t think most Christians today condemn sexual sin as much as they should. They prefer to coddle the guys who have affairs or molest kids.

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83. Linkletterlongbeach,

    You might want to take a look at Hebrews 10: 26-31. Willful consistent sin is the problem. We cannot live in willful consistent sin then when we get caught pull out the “oh sinners sin” card and I said sorry so I will continue to sell Jesus for profit.. As if the precious blood is so cheap. Add to that the fact that Coy was making huge bank off Jesus’ Name while doing his evil deeds. Tell me how all this works consistently and purposely while the Holy Spirit is indwelling. How does one get up and preach about Jesus during that time, too? It takes one cold deceptive callous heart.

    The only thing you are doing is cheapening the cross/resurrection to prop up your human hero. Fact is, Coy is a fraud. And I have no doubt he will make a big comeback and continue to make bank off Jesus’ Name again. There are plenty out there like you who will give him money.

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84. Dear missdaisyflower and Lydia,
    Amen to both of you.
    Bob Coy, like many other modern “Pauls”, is good at doing….

    The Evangelical “Mexican Hat Dance”

    Sin is always specific, not general.
    The “Hat” is, “What were Paul’s sins?”

    The music starts, with a cheery blast of trumpets in a melody that is familiar to most North Americans- the “Mexican Hat Dance.” (The national dance of Mexico, taught in Mexican public schools since 1921, and officially named “El Jarabe Tapatio.”)

    A couple in rather elaborate traditional costumes begins the dance. The man throws his huge sombrero hat on the floor, and the couple dances around it, but never steps on the hat. (The “Hat” is, “what were Paul’s sins?”) Here are the basic steps- (there may be one or two other basic steps, but they are very similar to these.)

    What were Paul’s sins?
    (or WHAT WERE BOB COY”S SINS? The modern “Pauls” just love to boast and brag about “O what a sinner I was 40 years ago back in the good old days in Las Vegas or wherever. And they’ll go into all sorts of graphic detail, to feed people’s carnal lust for sin and scandal, in the guise of a Christian “testimony” that is a safe distance away. ‘O I was such a Lost Boy, with a Heartbeat from Hell’….. Then they can claim to be “real” and admit that they WERE a sinner 40 years ago. But how about TODAY as a Christian celebrity pastor?)

    STEP 1) Paul said; “I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man.” [1 Timothy 1:13]
    (Response- Those were Saul’s sins, before Jesus called him. What were Paul’s sins as a Christian? )

    STEP 2) Paul said; “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners- of whom I am the worst.” [1 Timothy 1:15]
    (Response- Sin is alwasy specific. What were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian? )
    STEP 3) Paul said; “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” [Romans 3:23]

    (Response- Again the same question; What were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian? )

    STEP 4) Paul said; “Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it.” [Philippians 3:12-13]
    (Response- They say third time’s a charm. Same question; What were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian? )

    STEP 5) Paul said; “I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do- this I keep on doing.” [Romans 7:15-19]

    (Response- One more time! This is getting boring. Same question; Specifically, what were Paul’s specific sins as a Christian based on specific verses of the Bible? )
    STEP 6) LOOP- REPEAT steps 1 through 5, until your dance partner gives up, the audience gets bored, or the music stops. The rule is- never step on the “Hat,” just keep dancing around it.

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85. Dear OwlByrd & MJ,
    Amen,
    Regarding your comments about 1 month ago.

    You wrote, QUOTE:
    “there is far too much emphasis on the personality and “vision” of the lead Pastor.”

    Yes, and the theological root of this is,
    there is far too much emphasis on the personality and “vision” of
    PAUL THE PHARISEE the self-appointed “Apostle.”

    Paul is the model for modern mega-church pastors, not JESUS.

    Parable of the 12 heavenly chalkboards

    What is a common analogy for a permanent decision?
    “Written in stone.”
    What could be more permanent than that?
    How about written in stone in heaven (in other words, for eternity.)
    And what kind of a stone is the most solid, permanent, and unchangeable?
    Perhaps a foundation stone?

    The Book of Revelation written by the Apostle John, chapter 21 verse 14 says… “The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostle of the Lamb.”
    Nothing about a “13th Apostle” or an “Apostle of the Gentiles”…. Hmmmm…..

    Parable of the 12 heavenly chalkboards

    Imagine “Wackyjesus” in “Wackyheaven”, built on the foundations of 12 chalkboards:

    “Matthias, you should have developed your skills in writing and public speaking. Your name never appears in the Bible after your appointment as the 12th Apostle in Acts 1. [erase erase erase]

    Actually, the same is true for you Thaddaeus, after you were appointed. You should have hired a PR firm to promote your name and make if famous. [erase erase erase]

    Of course, you both are specifically mentioned in Acts 6:2. “So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together.” And this is before Saul/Paul is even mentioned. But let us not confuse the issue with facts. Paul did a much better job of marketing himself, and he wrote about himself hundreds of times. Share of voice equals share of mind. And most Evangelical pastors who read the Bible spend most of their time listening to the voice of Paul, so they become “like Paul.” But I digress…

    James, we had a good run. I didn’t think King Herod would knock you off so quickly. [erase erase erase]

    Oh well. Wow, they’re dropping like flies. Now I’ve got 3 slots open. I’d better buy a case of chalk and some more erasers. I’ll have to change the names on these 12 chalkboards hundreds of times in the next couple of millennia.

    I guess I had better plan ahead, and save a slot for the last Pope, Francis. And the head Mormon Apostle. And I need to save a throne for my mom, or she’ll be mad. And one for Muhammad too. Who needs truth in relationship, when I can quickly get market share, and totally dominate the market, through mergers and acquisitions?

    And one throne for that other guy named Peter. When he was younger, he used to have the great theological insight about territorial spirits and wrestling with dark angels. What was his last name? Begins with a consonant. Sounds almost like he was in the personal transportation industry back in “sword and sandal epic” days… “Peter Charioteer?” Maybe not. This isn’t the “fullest” description of him, but it’s full enough. Anyway, I should save a throne for him too.”

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86. “STEP 2) Paul said; “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners- of whom I am the worst.” [1 Timothy 1:15]”

    You might want to check the Greek grammar and context on that one.

    I remember you from PPT on your diatribes against Paul. If you ever decide to give Paul another chance, I highly recommend NT Wright’s Paul and the Faithfulness of God for intensive historical context.

    Peace.

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87. Lydia,
    Can you name 3 of Paul’s SPECIFIC sins as a Christian?

    King David wrote half of the Psalms, and I greatly appreciate them. But that doesn’t mean adultery is really OK because David wrote Scripture and David did it.. Right 🙂

    I would like to hear YOUR ideas, and how you are thinking for yourself regarding specific texts of the Bible.

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88. Check out the words: “Born of God”.  Is Paul born of God? 

    1. 1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

    1. 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 1. 1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 1. 1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.Under Grace, What sin could Paul ever be charged with?  He is dead to sin, alive in Christ. 

    No matter what Paul did in the flesh, he is not separated from God.  His present and future sins were already judged on the cross.

    However, since we are still in the flesh, we sin, in the flesh.  You cannot sin “in the spirit”.  Cannot is not the same word as “should not”. 

    Paul had to die (get rid of the flesh) daily.  So, Paul remained a sinner in the flesh, just like all the rest of us.  However, he died daily to live in the spirit.

    1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    But there is a difference between sinning on purpose, which is not loving your neighbor, and sinning on accident, because it is our nature.  Struggling with sin is one thing, but purposefully sinning means that you are under the law, and not grace.  And that means that you are not a Christian. 

    But for those who struggle, they are chastised in this life…punished in this life, judged in this life…not life eternal.

    Why are we worried about Paul’s sins, anyway?

    Ed

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89. “Can you name 3 of Paul’s SPECIFIC sins as a Christian?:

    No because I am not that interested in this topic here and now and I don’t think Paul is on par with Jesus the Christ.

    “King David wrote half of the Psalms, and I greatly appreciate them. But that doesn’t mean adultery is really OK because David wrote Scripture and David did it.. Right :)”

    I totally agree but not sure your point. But don’t elaborate because I am not interested. Most pastors trot out David’s heinous sins as if they map to some sort of cheap grace for today after some sinners prayer..

    “I would like to hear YOUR ideas, and how you are thinking for yourself regarding specific texts of the Bible.”

    Are you serious? This topic is a whole blog itself. That is why I recommended that book written by an NT scholar whose agenda seems to be only truth. I cannot vouch for that completely but after reading much of his other stuff and hearing many lectures it really does seem to be the case. Paul’s writings are the ones that are most twisted and reinterpreted, translated horribly, historical context left out, etc. The book of Romans being the worst. Not going there. It is not a hill to die on for me. Believe me, I find it interesting and read up on it but like Calvinism, that topic is a black hole.

    Peace out.

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90. Lydia and chapmaned24

    How about these five.

    .1) Paul’s boastful conflicting false testimonies, exaggerating and making things up about his conversion experience in Acts 22 & 26, compared to what actually happened (recorded by Luke in Acts 9) ?

    .2) Paul lying to the Ephesian elders saying he was “compelled by the Spirit” going to Jerusalem, when in truth he was clearly disobeying God? [Acts 19:21 – 22:21]

    .3) Paul exaggerating his ministry in Ephesus claiming it was “3 years night and day with tears” when really it was 3 months in the synagogue and 2 years daily in a lecture hall.
    [Acts 20:31 vs Acts 19:8-10]

    .4) Paul abandoning the Church in Corinth after a year and a half for no obvious reason, and going off on another long trip, mostly on his own, without appointing anyone else in Corinth as overseer, or giving anyone else any specific authority in the Church in Corinth.
    [Acts 18}

    .5) Paul acting as an abusive absentee leader (overseer / pastor) to the Church in Corinth years after he abandoned them, and clinging to all power and claim to control of money and all aspects of the church ministry, while he was hundreds of miles away teaching full-time in his own school in Ephesus. [1 & 2 Corinthians.}

    Paul is the “model pastor” for many modern “Pauls” like Bob Coy – and Greg Laurie, who lives in Newport Beach, commutes by helicopter, and exploits the church he founded in Riverside from a distance, while he does his own thing in Orange County and travels around wherever he feels like, building a personal cult empire with himself as the center, not Jesus.

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91. Ed & Lydia,
    If you can’t name 3 of Paul’s SPECIFIC sins as a Christian
    Then you ARE putting Paul
    “on par with Jesus the Christ.”

    Jesus was sinless. Paul was not. If you read the Book of Acts, (about half of which is essentially Paul’s biography,) and you can’t think of anything Paul did wrong, you are treating Acts like a 5th Gospel, with Paul as the Second Messiah.

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92. Matthew Perri,

    You did not address any of my verses in regards to Born of God.

    In addition, Luke wrote all of the book of Acts, therefore, if you refute part of Acts, then you are not refuting Paul at all, but Luke.

    However, I do know the book of Acts very well, and I do not agree with any of your claims about Paul at all. 

    Once you are a Christian, you are sinless.  Your sins, past, present and future are all buried on the cross of Christ.  Jesus died once for all sin.  All sin that has yet to be committed was judged already, on Jesus.  Christians are indeed sinless, in regards to eternal justice.  In regards to social justice, sin must be paid for here on earth.  God calls it chastising. 

    But…I think you just have a problem with Luke, and I have no idea what teachings that you are listening to, but my goodness.  Luke wrote all of Acts.  Paul had no part in writing any of the book of Acts.  It was a LETTER to addressed to a particular person, not an epistle written to a church body.

    If you think that you have a case, bring it to the experts, and try to convince them.  But as for me, you have no case.  If we were to believe your claim, don’t you think that Christians around the world would have picked up on your valuable nugget of information?  They would have abandoned Christianity altogether, and embraced Gandhi, or Buddha.  Come on, Matthew.  Really? 

    Ed

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93. Ed,
    You wrote, QUOTE:
    “You did not address any of my verses in regards to Born of God. ”

    All the verses you quoted were from one short letter (1 John.) and nothing else.
    Nothing from Jesus, The Law, or The Prophets.

    I’m not “refuting” Acts. It’s a narrative, and like other narratives it accurately reveals the sins of the sinful people that inhabit it’s pages- like Samson, Jonah, King Saul, King David, King Solomon, Peter… AND PAUL. Why is this surprising? Why should you assume that everything Luke records Paul doing and saying is right and true?

    Acts is not a 5th Gospel. Jesus lived a perfect life. No one else did.

    You wrote, QUOTE:
    “Once you are a Christian, you are sinless.”

    With all due respect, you must have taken leave of your senses. Please, open your Bible and listen to the words of Jesus in Revelation chapters 2 & 3 to the churches.

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94. Your question was in regards to Pauls sin, not the Law or the Prophets.

    Christians are not under the law, therefore, it is not necessary to discuss the law.

    Those who discuss the law are law breakers, because they think that the law justifies their righteousness.  The righteousness of God is without the law.

    Now, all of the people that you mentioned under the law, such as David, Sampson, etc., they had MULTIPLE laws of various sacrifice that “covered” their sins. 

    We are NO DIFFERENT than they, except for one very important aspect.  Jesus is our sacrifice.  We don’t need to sacrifice for each and every sin that we commit.  Why?  Because Jesus is the only sacrifice, and he already was sacrifice.  You cannot kill Jesus again, now can you?  NOPE.

    And, I stand by what I said that Christians are sinless in regards to eternal justice.

    Those who are born of God “cannot” sin.  Cannot.  Cannot. 

    It does not say “should not”, or “better not”. 

    Sin is the separation of God.  Nothing can separate a Christian from God.  Nothing.

    Why should I believe Luke?  Are you kidding?  If you think that the book of Acts should not be in the Bible, then start your own church and remove it.  Or follow Buddha.  Or, write a letter to the most wisest of scholars on the planet, and see what response you get from them.

    But as for me, you have no case.  I stand by what I said.

    Ed

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95. Ed,
    Your last 2 posts were both substantial in length, but amid all your own opinions, you didn’t quote the Bible one single time. The post before that, you quoted several Bible verses, but they were all from just ONE short Book of the Bible, the 1st Letter of John.

    Since you seem to like 1 John, here is a verse for you:
    “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
    [1 John 1:8]

    Sounds like you’ve started your own church, which is really a synagogue of Satan. What you have written here is the manifestation of a demon. In the name of Jesus, the name above all names, open your Bible to the Gospels and seek Jesus. This is a doctrine of demons, repeating that “those who are born of God cannot sin.” You are delusional. Sure we can – we sin every day as Christians, but God is with us, changing us, helping us grow and become more like Jesus was.
    Jesus loves you. Open your eyes and repent, and turn to Him.

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96. Matthew – Your last comment to Ed crossed the line for me. Although Ed is thick skinned and would probably love to take you on, your words are harsh (“synagogue of Satan” and telling him to repent). Telling someone to repent because you don’t agree with them is out of line – especially in a place where people are trying to recover from spiritual abuse.

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97. Matthew Perri

    I never said that we were without sin.  If you would note, I said the following:

    “We don’t need to sacrifice for each and every sin that we commit”

    1 John 1:9 is not discussing eternal judgment.  Jesus was the one who was judged for our eternal punishment.  That is why the same author also wrote in chapter 3, that we, who are born of God “cannot” sin.  Because Jesus lives in us, and in Hebrews 13 states, “I will never leave you nor forsake you”. 

    No matter where you run, there He is.  He lives INSIDE of you.  You are the temple of God.  Nothing can separate God from you.  The book of Ester gives insight of what is meant by the word “SEAL”.  A Kings Seal cannot be broken under any circumstance.  And we are sealed with the Holy Spirit.  And Jesus states, since you want me to quote Jesus:

    John 10:28-29 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.  My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

    When we commit sin on this earth as a Christian, we are chastised (punished) as sons and daughters.  That has nothing to do with eternal judgment of those sins.  In regards to eternal justice, that was already taken care of at the cross.

    Hebrews 12:7-8 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?  But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

    Every Christian is a son of God.

    Now, I could very easily have referenced each and every verse of the Bible to support what I said to you.  But I didn’t.  Such as:

    1.  When I said: “Those who discuss the law are law breakers, because they think that the law justifies their righteousness.  The righteousness of God is without the law.

    Romans 3:19-21Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    1 Timothy 1:9-10 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

    There is only two things that can be imputed to us.  Pay attention to that word, “IMPUTED” 1.  Grace 2.  Sin

    What is sin? 1 John 3:4 sin is the transgression of the law

    What is the law? Romans 3:20 the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

    Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    ***********ding ding ding ding************: Romans 4:15 (NO TRANSGRESSION) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

    Romans 4:8 (Again) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

    Romans 6:2 (DEAD TO SIN, WHICH MEANS THAT SIN DOES NOT EXIST TO US) How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

    Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin

    Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

    Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ;

    Romans 7:8 For without the law sin was dead.

    Galatians 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law

    Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    So, since we are dead to the law, what sin will keep Christians out of heaven?

    I could go on and on, but you speak as if you have extensive knowledge of the Bible, therefore, I did not feel the need to quote verses.  I guess, in this case, I was wrong.  Yes, I admit that I was wrong.  I will quote verses to you since you don’t have that extensive knowledge…hehe!!

    Oh, by the way…the Pharisees told Jesus that he hath the devil, too.  Should I quote the verse?

    Ed

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98. Dear Julie Anne,
    I understand and accept your admonishment. And I will endeavor to be loving, kind, and respectful to you, Ed, and everyone on this blog in accordance with established guidelines.

    I believe that Ed “crossed the line” saying,
    QUOTE:
    “Once you are a Christian, you are sinless.” and
    “Those who are born of God “cannot” sin. Cannot. Cannot. ”

    However, I will choose my words carefully in love.
    Paul, the self-appointed “apostle”, was probably the most spiritually abusive person in the New Testament that we can see. There are many of us who need to recover from the spiritual abuse of “Paul worship” so prevalent in the Evangelical Church.

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99. Ed
    Whose voice are you listening to primarily?
    Here is a breakdown of how you are using the Bible in this last post regarding the subject of “sin”.

    You make supercial reference to
    1 John 1,
    1 John chapter 3 twice,
    Hebrews 13

    then you mention “The book of Esther”, which does not have a single reference to God anywhere in the Book

    Then you quote Jesus in John 10:28-29, which doesn’t contain the word “sin.”
    “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. [John 10:28-29]

    Then you quote Hebrews 12:7-8, which doesn’t contain the word “sin” either.

    Then you quote Paul 15 times, in his letters to the Romans and Galatians.

    So I count:
    15 quotes from Paul’s Letters
    5 quotes from other NT Letters
    1 reference to OT Writings
    1 quote from Jesus in the Gospel of John, where Jesus is does not use the word “sin.”

    Nothing from the Law or the Prophets, and only one “off-topic” quote from the Gospels. And 20 quotes from the New Testament letters, 15 of them from Paul.
    I see you have the “mind of Paul.” But what about the mind of Jesus Christ regarding the subject of “sin”?

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100. I most assuredly say to you, Matthew Perri, I did not cross the line what I said that Christians are sinless.

     We are dead to sin, which means that sin does not exist.  He that is dead is freed from sin.  Are you dead to sin, or alive to sin?  We died with Christ, we put on Christ, and in him is no sin.

     Sin is the separation of God, and God lives in us, therefore sin will not separate us from God because we do not fall under the law, and the law is what genders sin.  We are free, and sinless.

     Christianity is SO EASY. All ya have to do is to believe, but mankind wants to make it so freaking difficult by adding rules and regulations and religion, and traditions and rituals, and requirements, and that big word “obedience” to the law…you know…all them Thou Shalt Not’s!!!

     Do I negate out the word “obedience”?  No, of course not.  But are we to be obedient to the law, or to love?

     Love fulfills all of the law.  If you love, you are not sinning, and therefore, you are in no need of law.  

     Now, in regards to you stating that Paul missed the first part of the 2 commandments, which is to love God…Paul was already talking to people who loved God. 

     The point is, that if you don’t love people, then you are sinning against people, and if you are sinning against people, then you are sinning against God, and if you sin against God, you are not loving God.

     Even James states that if you obey the “royal law”, ye do well.  That law is “love thy neighbor as yourself.

     You are dead, and if ye be dead, you are sinless.  Once you become a Christian, all of your sins are forgiven.  That means that you have ZERO SINS.  The slate is wiped clean.  You are in RIGHTEOUS standing with God, and will remain in righteous standing for eternity.

     Righteousness is not about being obedient to law.  If it were, then Christ died in vain.  Law is what produces sin.  We are not under something that produces sin.  Christians are sinless.

     Ed

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101. Matthew, I read and study words in the Bible.  I focus in on certain words, and dissect the BIBLICAL meaning.

     Sin, Righteousness, Law, Grace, etc.  Then I see how it is used in sentences.

     What I laid out to you is nothing new.  It is preached in many church’s around the world.  However, certain denominations want to you to obey rules and rituals, the law, etc.

     Tell me something.  Abraham didn’t have the law.  Why?  Why is Abraham our example of faith?  What must I do to be saved?  According to the Word, Believe.  Religions states “Believe, and…and…and…and…and”.

     And while you are jumping thru hoops, the enemy is laughing, because all Abraham did was to believe.  His works was “living” out his belief.  That is how he was righteous.  No law.  No sin could be “imputed” to Abraham, even if and when Abraham sinned.  And yes, for all have sinned.  The question is, when is sin “imputed”, and when is sin NOT “imputed”?

     Having no sin imputed, as Romans 4 states, means that you have no sin, even if you sin, and yes, we will sin.  But you don’t have that sin counted.

     I know that all sounds like an oxymoron, but you need to see it for what it is.  We are not separated from God. 

     Ed

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