Authoritative Preaching, Learn to Discern, Patriarchal-Complementarian Movement, Street Evangelism, Tony Miano, Women and the Church

Learn to Discern: Can Women Read Scripture Aloud to Men?

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Open Air Preacher Street Evangelist Tony Miano Gives Rules and Guidelines for Women Open Air Preaching and Reading Scripture to Men

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We’ve discussed open air preacher, Tony Miano before.  He used to work at Living Waters with Ray Comfort.  In the video below, he claims that he taught approximately 200 women how to do open air preaching.  He said he had to later repent of this because God had shown him that it is wrong for women to preach.  Remember, Tony Miano is the author of a fairly new book, Should She Preach, so this is his pet topic.

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I want to primarily discuss the transcribed quotes which were taken from the video, above.   (Special thanks to Diane who transcribed this for us.)

Note:  Miano’s run-on sentences and poor sentence structures made this difficult to transcribe.

17  min mark:  Miano is asked how women may be involved in evangelizing the lost.  

“Women engaging in one-to-one conversations – so long as those are appropriate conversations – I feel that while it is not a sin per se for a woman to engage a man in a conversation, there are a number of reasons why I think a woman should avoid that. Certainly any hint of impropriety, remaining above reproach, and you can so quickly, I think, in those conversations, cross the line from sharing the gospel one to one to sharing the gospel in a small group, exercising authority over men. But, no, God has called every Christian to go and make disciples.”

18:22 min mark:

“The idea of women open air preaching again and why it is wrong is it goes against God’s design.

Uh, men are called by God in creation to lead women. God has given men and women equal dignity spiritually, but has given us distinctly different roles.

And whenever a woman stands up on a box to proclaim the gospel in the open air, or even read scripture aloud, she is taking on the role of a man. She is taking on an authoritative role over whoever is listening to her.

The mere reading of scripture is to exercise authority because scripture is the authority.

And a woman cannot help but to sacrifice femininity when she stands on a box and exercises authority over a group of people.

But that does not mean that women do not have a critically important role in evangelism in the context of the local church –  whether it’s distributing tracts, engaging people in conversation, praying for those who are open air preaching, being a person of accountability especially in places like abortion clinics.

While the men should be out there doing the preaching, we need women out there to be counseling these women. It the Lord breaks them through the proclamation of the law and the gospel, it ought not be me putting my hand on a woman’s shoulder who is broken, and comforting and consoling her, it should be a woman.

And so there’s a critical need for women out on the streets being involved in evangelism, but under the authority of the men of the church, having the same level of spiritual dignity as any man out there, but fulfilling a critically important role that is not the role of a man.”

20:54 mark:

“I think one of the greatest threats to American evangelicalism is a growing level of egalitarianism. I think men generally speaking, broad brush, I think men in American evangelicalism are weak. I think they’re effeminate.

I think women are taking on roles that they may not otherwise ever even think of taking, uh, because the men aren’t standing up.

Uh, men in American evangelicalism act like male lions in a pride of lions. They mate, they sleep for twenty hours a day, and then they eat the fruit of the harvest from all the women making the kills. Um, and that’s not –  that’s not biblical. I think that’s a huge threat, uh, to American evangelicalism.”

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So, what do you think?  Let’s hash this out.

 

219 thoughts on “Learn to Discern: Can Women Read Scripture Aloud to Men?”

  1. Dear Serving Kids,

    Thanks for your comments. You are right, being a man is not something we have to obtain since we are already men. I don’t mean to come across that way that we need to be more manly. My point is that sometimes we just need encouragement as men to be the best man we can be. I think in American society men are often absent. There are too many single mothers raising kids by themselves. This is a problem and in some places the fathers are simply not around because they are in jail. This is sad and I just think men need to be encouraged and not beat up and trampled on because their role is important.

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  2. Andrew,
    I never meant to insinuate that you felt nothing, I was referring to Christian father who seemed to imply that only your wife suffered. I agree with you in much of what you’ve stated, I also agree that the absence of a dad in the home devastates family. Children need a dad and a mom, so we are in agreement there. I apologize to you if you were in any way offended by what I said; again, I did not mean to lessen the pain you endured.

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  3. Well, I have already admitted that folks often think I am mean so I am going to put forth another view.

    Something that bothers me is when people put forth tragedy in order to shore up a non salvic pet doctrine. That is a sort of emotional blackmail that keeps people from discussing the doctrine in depth for fear of offending the person who is in pain or suffered. I have had my share of tragedy and have some now. I won’t however, use it to shore up my pov on a non salvic doctrine like gender roles.

    Christian father wrote:

    “I would give anything to not have to be the head of a family and the only thing that comforts me as the head of a family is knowing that Christ is the head of my life who goes out to fight battles for me and who has felt every emotion and temptation I have, yet never sinned.”

    This makes it sound like you are some sort of mediator to Christ for your family. You do understand that Kephale has a meaning of “source” as in how they viewed the “head” as the source for the Body in the 1st Century.

    I love that you see your responsiblity as a protector for your wife and children who have been abused in the past. The problem with the way you explained it is that you and your wife are ultimately partners. You shore her up where she is weak/vulnerable and she does the same in return in areas where you are weak. Together you can be a strong one flesh unit.

    However, life happens in fallen world and you could get hit by a bus tomorrow or perhaps she wil have to change your Depends one day.How you wil be “head” and “protector” then, I have no idea. So, wouldn’t it be wise to shore one another up, encourage and help the other learn to become strong?

    Comp/pat doctrine can make women even more vulnerable long term. Just as it did in the OT when God allowed polygamy for just that reason: Patriarchy made them completely dependent in that culture. Becoming a widow could mean starvation. Patriarchy is sin. It is a result of the fall.

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  4. “My point is that sometimes we just need encouragement as men to be the best man we can be. I think in American society men are often absent. There are too many single mothers raising kids by themselves. This is a problem and in some places the fathers are simply not around because they are in jail. This is sad and I just think men need to be encouraged and not beat up and trampled on because their role is important.”

    Andrew, I encourage you to forget the word “role” when it comes to kingdom living. The closest thing in scripture to that word is “hypocrite” as in playing a part in a play…an actor. . If you did not use that word, how would you describe it? Men, like women, need to become more Christlike? Would that keep fathers out of jail?

    Is Jesus Christ our model for kingdom living? For both men and women? Or not?

    Like

  5. Serving, thanks for answering. Yes, thought you might be teaching English, and I have 1,611,001 questions for you, but will hold myself back. Really, really happy for you, and thankful that you are there serving kids in Japan. 🙂

    Not surprised that many people there have been so good to you. Some sure went out of their way to be kind and helpful to me, as well!

    Doubt I will ever make it back, at this point. But life is unpredictable…if I do, I will look you up!

    Like

  6. I encourage you to forget the word “role” when it comes to kingdom living. The closest thing in scripture to that word is “hypocrite” as in playing a part in a play…an actor. . If you did not use that word, how would you describe it? Men, like women, need to become more Christlike? Would that keep fathers out of jail?
    ___________________________________________________________________
    The apostle Paul gave different instructions for different people. Yes, we are all equal in Christ but Paul gave different instructions for husbands and wives, children and parents, etc.. I am equating these different instructions as “roles”. I am not referring to stereotypical roles but rather the distinct and differing instructions to various demographics that the apostle Paul gave. Hope that helps.

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  7. Something that bothers me is when people put forth tragedy in order to shore up a non salvic pet doctrine. That is a sort of emotional blackmail that keeps people from discussing the doctrine in depth for fear of offending the person who is in pain or suffered.
    __________________________________________________________________
    True, but I thought I would add some balance to this article that was using abuse by Tony Miano to shore up their egalitarian doctrine.

    Like

  8. Andrew, what a lovely tale! I am glad for your wife/kids, that there was/is someone who cares about them enough to help them when they were being trashed. How much I would have appreciated someone like you to help me through terrible times.

    But I do not think your story demonstrates the importance of manly headship. You are a compassionate and sturdy person who loves someone who had been deeply hurt (and also her children), and did what was needed to show that love and help them heal. It was indeed laying down your life. You did what women have often done, especially for their children. I don’t see it as job particular to a male.

    But it is beautiful thing.

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  9. 1. “…Christ is the head of my life who goes out to fight battles for me and who has felt every emotion and temptation I have, yet never sinned.”
    This makes it sound like you are some sort of mediator to Christ for your family.

    “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ …” 1 COR 11:3

    2. “So, wouldn’t it be wise to shore one another up, encourage and help the other learn to become strong?”

    I wrote: “During the course of this I have taught my wife how to fight. How to turn fear into righteous anger, not despair. I have taught my stepkids how to stand up for themselves and not allow others to hurt them.”

    3. “You also claim your wife is perfect in every way; my goodness, I thought only Christ was perfect. Surely you see the error in heralding any human as perfect.”

    “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” Matt 5:48. Perfect means complete. My wife happily strives to fulfill every aspect of a Proverbs 31 wife.

    4. “What woman wants a husband that throws up some stone fortress when tragedy strikes?”

    My wife thanked me often during our legal travails for being so strong. Apparently you would feel comfortable with your husband crying in the face of danger. Everyone is different.

    5. “Well, I have already admitted that folks often think I am mean …”

    “She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.” PROV 31:26. It appears that kindness is an attribute God sees in “a virtuous woman” PROV 31:10.

    6. “is gender defined by emotions? Am I a woman because I may get more emotional than a man?

    If you aren’t sure what makes you a woman or how a woman is commanded to behave by the words God wrote in the Bible, you would be best to ask an aged woman at your church. “The aged women likewise … that they may teach the young women …” Titus 2:3-5.

    As I read so many of the comments on here, it appears that many have been hurt by men who claimed the Bible gave them the authority to cause pain because they are male. I feel sorry for your pain. Only a foolish and sinful husband would hurt his wife. It also appears there are many who would argue that there are no distinctions between husbands and wives contained in the Bible. You would be ignorant or lying to make that assertion as there are myriad, very speciifc passages that pertain solely to a husband and to a wife.

    As a Christian husband, please allow me to offer that my experience with marriage lived within the context of the Bible and its commandments is joyous, pleasing, fulfilling, loving, exciting and rewarding to both spouses and children. If your husband has not created a joyous, fair, loving marriage environment with his input to the marriage, the problem doesn’t come from the words in the Bible, it comes from his sinfulness.

    Ask your husband what these words mean and hopefully the Holy Spirit will teach him:
    “So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it … Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself …” EPH 5:28-33.

    I pray that any man who harms any of you are turned from their wicked ways by the Lord.

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  10. “It also appears there are many who would argue that there are no distinctions between husbands and wives contained in the Bible. You would be ignorant or lying to make that assertion as there are myriad, very speciifc passages that pertain solely to a husband and to a wife.”

    Oh, bite me.

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  11. Andrew, you claim people are trying to shore up egalitarian doctrine. You disagree with it. You think we are way off base. Let me ask you this, how do you feel about those who would say you are living in continued unrepentant adultery being married to a divorced woman? (I am not saying you are, I believe what you have done is admirable) Would you fight to say they are wrong? Would you defend your position? Becasue that is exactly what those against patriarchy and complementarianism and the “women can’t do abc” are doing. We can all find scripture to back our positions. But I know from my own experience that complementarianism often leads to abuse. I know from experience that God can use me any way he sees fit. My word, if He can use a female jackass to get a MAN to see God, why can’t He use a woman to lead?

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  12. .” “Well, I have already admitted that folks often think I am mean …”

    “She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.” PROV 31:26. It appears that kindness is an attribute God sees in “a virtuous woman” PROV 31:10.”

    Oh no! I am so rebuked. How can I go on? But it IS considered “kind” by some to love justice. And while I admit I can be mean why don’t you admit to being a Pharisee? Beentheredonethat summed it up better than I ever could, though. :o)

    “6. “is gender defined by emotions? Am I a woman because I may get more emotional than a man?

    If you aren’t sure what makes you a woman or how a woman is commanded to behave by the words God wrote in the Bible, you would be best to ask an aged woman at your church. “The aged women likewise … that they may teach the young women …” Titus 2:3-5.

    Hey, this is great. I will ask Clorice to teach me. She is an older woman (70’s) who joined our church about 4 years ago. She became a Christian about 10 years ago. She was a pole dancer until she was 37 and then worked in a bar until she was 60.She has no relationship with her kids and has had 3 husbands. I am sure as an “older woman” she can teach me who is younger. But probably not what you had in mind.

    Sheesh! Nothing like throwing out proof texts to rebuke a comment stream with no context discussion. Very Pharisetical.

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  13. “The apostle Paul gave different instructions for different people. Yes, we are all equal in Christ but Paul gave different instructions for husbands and wives, children and parents, etc..”

    Some animals are more equal than others. Orwell.

    So, tell me about Paul’s instructions. be specific and lets go through them within context. That would be more productive than drive by declarative statements with no context.

    ” I am equating these different instructions as “roles””

    Well that would be a mistake. For example, the admonition to obey your parents could be a problem if daddy is a molester and a deacon. Happens all the time but you usually find those “instructions” and “roles” are very important in churches with such reprobates. So what then? Can there be no contextual understanding within the whole pericope. Just play your role well?

    ” I am not referring to stereotypical roles but rather the distinct and differing instructions to various demographics that the apostle Paul gave. Hope that helps.”

    Nope. Doesn’t help at all. Just a declarative statement with no specifics or context. Women have babies and men can’t. That is not playing a role. What do you do with “sonship” and full inheritance of Galatians 3-4? Kind of throws a monkey wrench into proof texting Ephesians. You think those Galatian women knew? But then most leave off Galatians 5:21 or parse it death so it won’t apply to them.

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  14. “True, but I thought I would add some balance to this article that was using abuse by Tony Miano to shore up their egalitarian doctrine.”

    Thank you for not mentioning the “Egalitarian Pleasuring Party”! :o)

    I am not an egalitarian. Not very fond of the word. Too “French Revolution” for me. Too Robespierre, if you get my drift.

    I prefer “Mutualist” as we see taught through the 58 “one anothers” in the NT and Eph 5:21 and on and on.

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  15. “As I read so many of the comments on here, it appears that many have been hurt by men who claimed the Bible gave them the authority to cause pain because they are male.”

    Or perhaps some have just been bored to tears by “Christian” Pharisees?

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  16. lynetteduquette71 wrote “Let me ask you this, how do you feel about those who would say you are living in continued unrepentant adultery being married to a divorced woman? (I am not saying you are, I believe what you have done is admirable) Would you fight to say they are wrong?”
    _______________________________________________________________
    Yes, I would say they are full of it! Every situation is different and divorce and remarriage is one of those things that needs to be considered on an individual basis.

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  17. Maybe married couples should be able to choose how their marriage will function as well. Maybe churches shouldn’t advocate comp marriages over mutual marriages. Likewise, it would be nice to not be considered sinful or out of God’s will if a marriage is egal. or mutual 🙂

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  18. Okay then. Can you respond to the rest of my comments? Do you not think that ‘roles’ can depend on an individual basis? For instance, can a man lead his family and be the head and protector if for instance, he is disabled and incapable of leading? What if he travels for business? I never understood how a wife (and this is from experience) is incapable of being equal when she is the one, most of the time, who takes care of the house, the kids, the errands, makes sure the bills get paid, etc etc. There is no such thing as equal if the husband is the authority. Authority means you have people UNDER you. Is the private equal to the general in the military?

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  19. Okay then. Can you respond to the rest of my comments? Do you not think that ‘roles’ can depend on an individual basis? For instance, can a man lead his family and be the head and protector if for instance, he is disabled and incapable of leading?
    _______________________________________________________________
    Yes, he can lead. Primarily a man leads when he is the spiritual leader in the family. It really doesn’t matter who takes care of the kids, who makes the most money, who does the vacuuming and cleaning and who does the dishes. That was never my intention to put any of these things into classifications of roles.
    _________________________________________________________________
    There is no such thing as equal if the husband is the authority. Authority means you have people UNDER you. Is the private equal to the general in the military?
    ________________________________________________________________
    First I haven’t used the word authority. And second never intended to say a marriage has anyone under any one. A marriage is primarily about oneness. (One flesh, etc..) But Paul also uses marriage as a allegory for Christ and the church with Christ as the head. My primary concern is to be faithful to the Bible the best I know how.

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  20. Dear Christian Father,

    “It appears that kindness is an attribute God sees in ‘a virtuous woman’.”

    Kindness isn’t reserved simply for women. It’s something that all Christians should try to show. And not because of gender, but because of our relationship to Jesus.

    Both men and women are called upon to be like Him. And that includes speaking out about injustice and calling out nonsense for what it is. Jesus minced no words with the religious authorities of his day, or their teachings. Some of the things he said were harsh. I think it is in that spirit that Lydia speaks, and I see no reason to muzzle her simply because she isn’t a man.

    “As a Christian husband, please allow me to offer that my experience with marriage lived within the context of the Bible and its commandments is joyous, pleasing, fulfilling, loving, exciting and rewarding to both spouses and children.”

    Yes, a complementarian marriage can be filled with great joy and love. You demonstrate that. So can egalitarian marriages. Julie Anne proves that, and so does BeenThereDoneThat, and Cindy K, and many other wonderful women who comment on this blog. The same goes for non-Christian marriages, too. I’ve seen many of them are happy, healthy and loving.

    This is why I take a dim view of those (like Miano) who insist that complementarian marriage is The Only Way for Truly Blessed Marriages™. As I said before to Andrew, if your being the “spiritual head” of the household works for your marriage, I’m happy for you. But I see no need to force all couples into that mindset. I would much rather promote love, justice and compassion within marriage than artificial roles.

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  21. You need to do more research into the parts of the Bible that you think makes you the head of a woman in a relationship. It is a terrible misunderstanding of those scriptures, put forth in part by mistranslation that occurred with a patriarchist bias. And they have been poorly exegeted as well. And any man who thinks he is the mediator between his wife and God is committing a grave sin and is in heresy by placing himself in the role of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. We have but one mediator, Jesus Christ, as represented by the Holy Spirit. Do not attempt to supplant the Savior in the life of your wife — it is a ticket to hell for you and possibly for her.

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  22. P.S. to Oasis,

    I’d love to answer any questions you have. If you’d like to get in touch with me directly, please feel free to ask JA for my contact info. I have a bit of time now and (being slightly strapped for cash at present) I won’t be traveling much. And I’m happy to share with others about my life here.

    If you don’t feel comfortable e-mailing me, or don’t have time, no worries. I leave it up to you.

    (waving from across the Pacific) 🙂

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  23. An Attorney wrote “You need to do more research into the parts of the Bible that you think makes you the head of a woman in a relationship. It is a terrible misunderstanding of those scriptures, put forth in part by mistranslation that occurred with a patriarchist bias. And they have been poorly exegeted as well. And any man who thinks he is the mediator between his wife and God is committing a grave sin and is in heresy by placing himself in the role of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. We have but one mediator, Jesus Christ, as represented by the Holy Spirit. Do not attempt to supplant the Savior in the life of your wife — it is a ticket to hell for you and possibly for her.”

    Not sure who you are writing to. However, I never said or implied any man was a mediator between his wife and God. I never said or implied any man should supplant the Savior in the life of their wife. Quite the contrary. A husband should continually encourage his wife to look to Christ. And also I am not saying a man should be head in any relationship with any woman but only in a marriage. Now with that said, I have done a little research on Ephesians 5:23. I have checked 12 English translations I know of and EVERY single one of them without exception mentions the husband as the head of the wife. Now are you suggesting that EVERY SINGLE one of these translations is completely erroneously wrong, biased and corrupt? I am trying to understand your viewpoint but I will certainly trust the Bible over an attorney every day of the week. Which Bible do you suggest I read?

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  24. Tony Miano has NO authority over women, he needs to remove the log from his own eye before he EVER attempts to point to anyone else. IF, IF we see a brother or sister caught up in sin, we are to approach them in a spirit of gentleness, and NOT this military, legalistic garbage that calls itself Christian. I am sick and tired of these Pharisees trying to dictate the do’s and don’ts of their ‘religion’ and impose it on us. I am sick and tired of Miano deeming who’s saved and who isn’t; as if God gave him authority to make such a call. He constantly breaks his own rules, including a post he wrote where he specifically states -” “Again, we do not have the right or authority to declare someone saved or unsaved.” {http://www.onthebox.us/2011/04/should-christians-question-salvation-of.html}

    Why isn’t Miano working with his own hands to support his family? Why can’t he see he is in sin? How many men, including the likes of Miano, MacArthur, Sproul, and a whole host of others, use their ministry as a means of living off donated $$! This is ridiculous! I want to share this – http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/2014/03/should-we-give.html
    I also want to point to a couple of comments on that post by Diane.

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  25. @ Julie Anne-

    “A woman should dress in such a way as to draw attention to the face & not her body & bring glory to Christ. -TM”

    I wonder if Miano is copying his ido…I mean *dear brother, most godly whatever he has ever met in his life* Paul Washer, again. I heard the following first from Washer years ago when I used to listen to him.

    “My wife has a really good thing that she says: ‘If your clothing is a frame for your face, from which the glory of God is to shine, it’s proper, if it draws attention to your face. If your clothing draws attention to your body, to outline it, to make it noticed, then it’s sensual.’ What you’re doing is wrong.”

    Washer adds that “godly” men would have to turn their heads when women with the wrong type of clothing walk into the room.

    “Because it’s not beauty, it’s sensuality,” he says. “When you see it, you know it. There is a difference between beauty and sensuality and God is not against beauty. He is against sensuality.”
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/01/28/virginia-pastor-women-are-sinners-if-clothes-outline-body-to-make-it-noticed/

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  26. Abby Norman @AccidentalDevo
    Follow
    @DefendTheSheep @TonyMiano I don’t understand how my boobs DON’T bring glory to Christ but my face does. Who decides that anyway?
    2:22 PM – 24 Mar 2014

    This reminds me of a ‘famous quote’ from the movie Carrie and her psycho-religious mother…

    Margaret White: “I can see your dirty pillows. Everyone will.”
    Carrie: “Breasts, Mama. They’re called breasts, and every woman has them.”

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  27. Why isn’t Miano working with his own hands to support his family? Why can’t he see he is in sin? How many men, including the likes of Miano, MacArthur, Sproul, and a whole host of others, use their ministry as a means of living off donated $$!
    ________________________________________________________________

    I thought Miano was a retired Sheriff. Is there a problem in the Miano family that you would like to share with us? I mean maybe his wife enjoys working, etc…Is she complaining or are you? I’m sure Pastrix Joyce Meyers, Pastrix Paula White and Pastrix Beth Moore and countless others, more than double the salaries of these men you listed. Why no outrage with that?

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  28. Probably because none of their husbands are online begging for ‘living expenses.’ None of them are online promtoing how important gender roles are…if Miano is so hung up on roles…HE is the one who should be out making a living. “If a man does not provide for his family he is worse than an unbeliver” 1tim 5:8. I find your use of pastrix insulting also. I looked the word up. I saw the references. You, by calling Myer, Moore etc, that, makes you no better than Miano.

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  29. BTW, in reference to a comment I read on another blog…women might be the weaker vessel according to the bible…but so glad that God uses the weak to tear down those who are wise in their own eyes. 1 Cor. 1:27

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  30. If Miano wants to make a living from preaching, he needs to go to a seminary and study so he has something to offer. I gather he has been trying to find a church or denomination to ordain him and hasn’t been able to. I would be ashamed to go online and beg people to send me a couple thousand dollars each month so I could harangue people all day with nasty tweets and so called street preaching. He should get a job and harangue in the evenings and weekends, if that’s what he feels he must do.

    I too am offended by your use of the word pastrix, Andrew.

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  31. I find your use of pastrix insulting also. I looked the word up. I saw the references. You, by calling Myer, Moore etc, that, makes you no better than Miano.
    _________________________________________________________________
    So I am no better than Miano because I refer to these women as Pastrix? I don’t understand. A pastrix is nothing more than a female pastor. However, since pastors/elders are male, the term pastrix is the best way to describe these women. My sister was an executrix of my dad’s will when he died. No one found this terminology offensive including my sister. An executrix is a female executor. Its the same thing. To me its the polite thing to do.

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  32. The polite thing to do? I don’t believe that for a minute. It is a term that patriarchal Christians use to separate out and diminish women ministers. In my denomination, pastors and elders can be both male and female and are referred to as such. You don’t want women clergy so you reach back for a term used by ancient Romans that very few people have ever heard of outside your circle.

    Executrix is Latin, a language used frequently for legal terms. It has nothing to do with modern language.

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  33. Do you call a woman doctor a doctrix? Is a woman painter a paintrix? A sculptor a sculptrix? Maybe it would be more polite if I call my realtor a realtrix.

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  34. “You don’t want women clergy so you reach back for a term used by ancient Romans that very few people have ever heard of outside your circle.

    Executrix is Latin, a language used frequently for legal terms. It has nothing to do with modern language.”
    ______________________________________________________________

    Its not a matter what I want. My primary concern is about using the Bible correctly. I am not aware of the term Patrix being used by the ancient Romans. If executrix is acceptable in legal language in the modern day, than certainly patrix can be acceptable in modern language especially when thinking in terms of theology and the church. Gosh its not just the legal profession that has used Latin but also medical terminology as well as theology and the church has used Latin profusely because its very precise. Pastor/Edler is definitely not the correct word for a female. Because the Bible is 100% clear of the qualifications of an elder which one of them is being a male. No matter how much I don’t like this, this is the reality. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with the Bible. Now if you want to rewrite the Bible, that’s on you cause I won’t have anything to do with that.

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  35. Oh well, that settles it if you are speaking for God!

    Your interpretation of the Bible is different from mine and from my denomination.

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  36. Andrew said-“You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with the Bible”. (in other words, you are arguing with God, are you even saved????) Those of us who have left abusive churches have heard those words a million times.

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  37. I wrestle with God all the time. There are things I don’t like that He has said but I feel compelled to deal with them rather than ignore them. I am not questioning anybody’s salvation. I also was part of a very abusive church in a Calvary Chapel so I can sympathize but I love the Word too much to compromise it.

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  38. The legal community is moving entirely away from gender specific terms. Executrix has become Executor, etc. Executrix is considered archaic, and in most places is no longer used. Similarly, the “et ux”, meaning “and wife” is disappearing. The most recent trend is away from husband and wife to spouse, partner, and other terms that are not gender specific. As a 65+ male, I am an advocate for the changes, but sometimes slip up and use the old terms.

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  39. Andrew,

    There is a serious problem with many of the times that the male form is used in the NT. English, in particular, is weak on the use of non-gender specific terms for people. In the Latin derived languages, three sisters and one brother will be referred to as four brothers!!! So it is important to carefully look to see if the male reference is an intended limitation or only the way to reference mixed groups. And a lot of the hierarchy or patriarchy seen in the NT translations into English cannot be found in the Greek!

    The most direct statement of this is in the Bible itself: “In Christ, there is neither . . ..” If you want to be outside of Christ, insist on the male interpretation. If you want to be in Christ, drop that nonsense.

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  40. I just read that Jimmy Carter is promoting his timely new book on abuse of women stemming from misinterpretation of religious texts, including the bible. Being conservative, it’s a scary day when I find myself agreeing with his basic premise. 😯

    http://nws.mx/1l4Gpsi

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  41. If the qualifications of an elder state he must be a man because of the pronoun ‘he’…do all the other scriptures that use the word ‘he’ not apply to me because I am a she?

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  42. If the qualifications of an elder state he must be a man because of the pronoun ‘he’…do all the other scriptures that use the word ‘he’ not apply to me because I am a she?
    ________________________________________________________________
    Context, context and context. The word “he” applied to an elder in the Bible can not be mistaken for a women. Because he is to be the husband of but one wife. Since the Bible was written in Greek and not modern English I disagree with Attorney that the Bible should change husband/wife to spouse partner just to fit a postmodern agenda. It also changes the meaning allowing for homosexual and non covenant sexual unions which is clearly sinful.

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  43. Andrew: “You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with the Bible. Now if you want to rewrite the Bible, that’s on you cause I won’t have anything to do with that.”

    I recommend you let go this form of argument. It equates your interpretation of scripture with that of God’s (“I know as much as He does”), which is both dangerously arrogant and makes you look silly. Also it implies you don’t want to argue any further and if that is so, much better for you simply to be honest and say so.

    Moreover, you can try to clean up the word “pastrix” with lashings of Latin but that does nothing to its current English inference, which has a sly nastiness. That you repeat it for each woman’s name shows that you are aware of this at some level. Again, be honest.

    I think you’ve not yet managed to clear from your mind/heart the unhealthy methods learned at your abusive church. It takes longer than most people can imagine to shake that sticky garbage out. Be patient and keep at it. Our beloved faith is condensed into the two Great Commandments, from which Jesus said all scripture hangs.

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  44. I recommend you let go this form of argument. It equates your interpretation of scripture with that of God’s (“I know as much as He does”), which is both dangerously arrogant and makes you look silly. Also it implies you don’t want to argue any further and if that is so, much better for you simply to be honest and say so.
    _______________________________________________________________

    Actually I believe in the bible and its not so much about an interpretation but about actually believing that it is God’s word and God meant what He said. You are certainly free to your opinions and beliefs but what is dangerously arrogant is to use ones own opinions, etc.. to understand God and not the bible itself.

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  45. I have opinions and beliefs; I interpret the Bible. People spent their entire adult lives learning Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek, studying the historical context of the Bible, and attempting to understand the Bible as a whole so that they can understand God’s Word. Christian theologians disagree on a variety of points. They too have opinions and beliefs.

    And sometimes those beliefs and opinions change. For centuries, Christians took the Bible literally and believed the sun revolved around the earth. To believe otherwise was heresy. Now that the evidence is incontrovertible that it is the reverse, the language in the Bible on that point is considered poetical not lyrical. Oh well.

    Andrew, I don’t know how you can be so sure that you know what God is saying just by reading your Bible in English.

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  46. Andrew, I don’t know how you can be so sure that you know what God is saying just by reading your Bible in English.
    ________________________________________________________________
    I don’t!. I am relying on centuries of biblical theologians, numerous commentaries, using a grammatical historical hermeneutic, Greek word studies, church history, church counsels and the most scholarly theologians I know of today. Now, you are right, that everyone could have been wrong throughout the centuries. I suppose all the English translations could be wrong and church history could be nothing but a story full of complete heresy and fairytales, but I have a more positive outlook.. Just like you claim about the sun revolving around the earth was considered heresy, I guess everything we know including, the trinity, Jesus, the resurrection, the holy Spirit, law and grace, the old and new covenants could all be completely wrong and it all needs to be revamped into a postmodern world view and considered pure poetry. I suppose at this point, why even read the bible? Everyone has a a completely subjective view, its not authoritative and is nothing more than poetry to be taken with a grain of salt. I suppose I could take that approach when reading the bible but that I believe would lead me into despair. I trust the bible over my subjective experiences, feelings, etc..because this is one of the things that was fought desperately for in the reformation that brought freedom from the oppression of the works orientated Roman Catholic church and presents the love of Christ for the forgiveness of our sins based on Faith alone, through Grace alone, by Christ alone revealed in Scripture alone to God be the Glory alone.

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  47. Oh please. Is it proper for a woman to speak in a schoolroom? Was it proper for Miriam to prophesy? Was it proper for Deborah to lead Israel? All of this insanity is the sinful nature manifesting in an effort to dominate and control women. The power trip that men get… grows into incredible sin. The god-complex in lust for power, turns into lust for sex and lust for money. This is the devil plain and simple when men and women get hooked into this domination and subjugation nightmare trap of bondage in the flesh. YES, WOMEN CAN OPEN AIR PREACH! They can breath. They can raise their hands and speak in a schoolroom! Jesus had none of these issues of domination and subjugation. It is reading the Bible through a carnal and cultish lense to think women are limited by God who gave them their gifts and called them to be and do.

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  48. Andrew, you now write that I am arrogant for having a different interpretation than you. Do you realize what you’re writing?

    Look, it is understandable, after being spiritually trashed, to need something to hang onto with all your heart. I get that. The Bible is a solace for you. I hope that you also are reaching out to God, that you sit next to Him and rest. He is completely generous and loves you very much. He is where surety lies.

    The Bible’s whole purpose is to bring us to God. It is a pointer to God and not, itself, God. I think sometimes when we are in deep need of something solid to hold onto, we can confuse/conflate the two.

    “I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.”

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  49. Andrew, you now write that I am arrogant for having a different interpretation than you. Do you realize what you’re writing?
    _________________________________________________________________
    You call me arrogant because I believe what the Bible says and yet I never called you arrogant yet you accuse me of it. You are mistaken. I said taking ones opinion over what the Bible says is arrogant. Now if you are admitting to taking your opinion over what the bible says, then yes I will conclude you are arrogant, however if you can show me how your opinion lines up with the bible, how can I call you arrogant?
    _________________________________________________________________
    The Bible’s whole purpose is to bring us to God. It is a pointer to God and not, itself, God. I think sometimes when we are in deep need of something solid to hold onto, we can confuse/conflate the two.
    __________________________________________________________________
    This is interesting point you brought up. I am no expert and I don’t claim that a physical book I have in my hands is God; however God does put His own Word above his name. Jesus is even referred to as the Word of God. John in his prologue refers to the Word becoming flesh in speaking of Jesus. His Word to me is not something I take lightly. Your last post ended with a scripture verse. What a beautiful verse and so comforting. Its God’s Word and we can know who God is by reading ALL the scripture. I’m not sure what your understanding of scripture is but to me it is the final authority in matter of doctrine as you have just demonstrated in your quote. Amen.

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  50. But Andrew, “Word” doesn’t mean the Bible. The Bible wasn’t even there yet when John wrote that. He meant God’s communication to us which is Jesus. Jesus is God-come-to-us, God-become-us, God-talking-with-us, God-acting-with-radical-love. And now we have God-here-in-us in the form of the Holy Spirit, and that is our Word, God’s communication with us.

    I am not nearly so excited that the magnificent words I quoted to you are in the Bible as I am that they show me astonishing amount of love God has for us all, of which I can, so far, catch only glimpses. I hope you can eventually see through the book to the meaning of that passage, Andrew. Those occasional glimpses are incredibly stabilizing and comforting.

    I will give up on the other quibble since I cannot get you to see the lack of humility in believing your interpretation is the only correct one, to the point that you align yourself with God Himself.

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  51. I hope you can eventually see through the book to the meaning of that passage, Andrew. Those occasional glimpses are incredibly stabilizing and comforting.
    _________________________________________________________________
    You assume I don’t understand these words yet somehow you do understand and that you somehow have the special knowledge or revelation that I don’t. Look in the mirror Patrice.

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  52. Finally catching up on reading this thread…

    Lydia said,

    JA, I might just take you up on it, sometime. My problem is that I have a different view than many people on discernment blogs and they think I am mean. Well, I am mean when it comes to this BS trash stuff out there posing as Jesus approved.

    At the risk of coming off as flattering, Lydia, I mean to encourage you in hopes that you’ll take Julie Anne up on her invitation to write a guest post. From here and other places (PPT, Argo’s etc), it’s clear you have a grasp that spiritual abuse goes far beyond bad behavior but builds off an entirely false foundation. I’ve learned a lot from your comments here n’ there, and have even followed through and purchased books you’ve mentioned regarding Christian history. You’ve got a unique and thoroughly educated perspective which I hope you’ll expand here. (Praises to you, JA, for recognizing the same!)

    I say, rip ’em a new one. It’s way past due.

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  53. “John in his prologue refers to the Word becoming flesh in speaking of Jesus.

    John is referring to Genesis. He is not referring to ink on scrolls.

    “You assume I don’t understand these words yet somehow you do understand and that you somehow have the special knowledge or revelation that I don’t. Look in the mirror Patrice.”

    Andrew, It is wise to share our understanding of passages. All we have are translations and let’s face it, it is unwise to say translators or even pastors have all the “special knowledge we cannot have. The book of 1 John says all believers have anointing.

    What scares me more are those who listen to one guy or their favorite guru week after week without doing any heavy lifting themselves. They “trust” mere men too much. And some even start seeing scripture as a life “how to” manual and ignore the promised Counselor.

    You said earlier:

    “I don’t!. I am relying on centuries of biblical theologians, numerous commentaries, using a grammatical historical hermeneutic, Greek word studies, church history, church counsels and the most scholarly theologians I know of today.”

    Relying on history is a big problem. Church history is full of blood, evil, power mongering, wiping out people, church state church, etc, etc. The councils did more to bring this on than anything because of what? Disagreement on doctrine. And if you think that did not effect translations then you are naive. Just look at the word choices between what we know as Koine Greek to modern English! Then look at how word definitions have changed just over the last 50 years in English! Here is an example: Gay used to mean “happy”. You would not read it that way today.

    Same with words like “head” in scripture today. We read it with our Western eyes and not a 1st Century person living in the Roman Empire.

    That is why applying scripture as a how to manual can be tricky. Unless you are always greeting your brothers with a Holy Kiss? :o)

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  54. “Pastor/Edler is definitely not the correct word for a female. Because the Bible is 100% clear of the qualifications of an elder which one of them is being a male. ”

    Actually, the “qualifications” you insist upon include “husband of one wife” and children. Both Paul and Jesus would not be qualified. You sure you want to die on that hill as “handling the word correctly”?

    “Pastor” One “pastors”. It is a function. A spiritual gift. Has nothing to do with what we term as “pastor” today. There might ahve been many “pastoring” in a small house church.

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  55. “Context, context and context. The word “he” applied to an elder in the Bible can not be mistaken for a women. Because he is to be the husband of but one wife.”

    Actually Andrew, the word is “tis” in Greek which means “anyone” so it is “anyone who desires…..” Examples of qualifications follow. Gune used here can refer to “woman” or “wife”. The Greek is like that so yes, context is important.

    But my guess is you probably think Junia was a man, too like Piper and Grudem tried to pass off until so many scholars gave them a public embarassing beating, so not sure why I am bothering. :o)

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  56. Actually, the “qualifications” you insist upon include “husband of one wife” and children. Both Paul and Jesus would not be qualified. You sure you want to die on that hill as “handling the word correctly”
    ________________________________________________________________
    I’m not dying on this hill but I think its rather unfair to label anyone who believes it as abusive; yet that is all I hear constantly. All men are lumped into the same boat if they have a conservative theology. I get it that there are abusive men. I get that more that you realize. I honestly do. I can’t stand abusive, arrogant men and I want to rid the church of it completely. I have battled it more than you will ever realize and will continue to. With that in mind, I’m not convinced that women should be pastors/elders. Does that make me a bigot?

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  57. Andrew, It is wise to share our understanding of passages. All we have are translations and let’s face it, it is unwise to say translators or even pastors have all the “special knowledge we cannot have. The book of 1 John says all believers have anointing.
    __________________________________________________________________
    I agree and believe all believers have anointing. This is precisely why it makes no sense what Patrice said to me. She assumes I have no insight into the passage she quoted. I don’t disagree with her in her understanding of the verse, only taking offense that she assumes I don’t get it. That is gnosticism and secret knowledge and something I won’t play games with here.

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  58. Andrew, Where did I label you as abusive? We are simply having a disagreement about interpretation. I have no idea what conservative vs liberal theology means. I find your Response a bit perplexing.

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  59. “With that in mind, I’m not convinced that women should be pastors/elders. Does that make me a bigot?”

    Not necessarily. But comments like this might make you a bigot: “Because the Bible is 100% clear of the qualifications of an elder which one of them is being a male. No matter how much I don’t like this, this is the reality. You are not arguing with me, you are arguing with the Bible. Now if you want to rewrite the Bible, that’s on you cause I won’t have anything to do with that.”

    If the Bible was really that clear on everything there would not be dozens of different denominations who interpret the Bible differently. Westboro Baptist is absolutely convinced that they alone have the true interpretation. That’s how cults get started. Fwiw, I believe we are all going to be a bit surprised when we get to the pearly gates.

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  60. But Andrew, We have lots of pastors out there pleading special knowle
    Let’s look at it from a birds eye view Taking in the entire pericope of Scripture. There is no prohibition in the Old Testament on women teaching or leading men. Now it did not happen a lot in that ver Patriarchal sinful culture. But it did happen. And not one single prohibition against it.

    But you want me to believe that your interpretation Limits the sisters in the New Covenant. Perhaps that should give you a clue that you have the context wrong.

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  61. lydia I really don’t know anything about you but you seem like a very friendly, knowledgeable and brilliant young lady and it is perplexing that you have no idea what conservative vs liberal theology means. Anyhow, not saying you accused me of being abusive but many others have here and they have certainly labeled complementarian theology as ABUSIVE which is unfair in and of itself.

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  62. These pastors pleading special knowledge and especially the vision casting ones are full of it. But Lydia I am not against women teaching or leading men. Where did I say that? I have had many female bosses. I have voted for females in elections. I have gone to female doctors and guess what I have even gone to female Christian counselors. I probably will never go back to a male counselor cause the female ones I went to were better. But I will never go to a church with a female senior pastor. I just won’t. Sorry.

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  63. “lydia I really don’t know anything about you but you seem like a very friendly, knowledgeable and brilliant young lady and it is perplexing that you have no idea what conservative vs liberal theology means. Anyhow, not saying you accused me of being abusive but many others have here and they have certainly labeled complementarian theology as ABUSIVE which is unfair in and of itself.”

    You get extra points for referring to me as a nice YOUNG lady. :o)

    I am familiar with how many fundys define “conservative” theology and how many liberals describe “liberal” theology. There are variations depending on what group/movement one is talking to. It is just I don’t agree with their seemingly concrete categories and groupthink. I could never define myself by either category.

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  64. “These pastors pleading special knowledge and especially the vision casting ones are full of it. But Lydia I am not against women teaching or leading men. Where did I say that? I have had many female bosses. I have voted for females in elections. I have gone to female doctors and guess what I have even gone to female Christian counselors. I probably will never go back to a male counselor cause the female ones I went to were better. But I will never go to a church with a female senior pastor. I just won’t. Sorry.”

    Well, since we are discussing spiritual and biblical matters I suppose that makes my comments moot? And if I had an institutional title of “pastor”, then, according to your beliefs you would be in sin. Or is it only a sin when they are on a stage behind a pulpit?

    Don’t you think you should have asked first if any women here are pastors so you could be sure not to sin?

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  65. Lydia, just in case you don’t subscribe to comments, I left you one this morning (9:51) which was in the doghouse moderation for a couple hours, resulting in it getting buried by more comments. Just sayin’… 🙂

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  66. Scott said: “Mark Driscoll is just a christian punk version of Howard Stern”.
    ROTHLMBO!!!!!!
    I read that & nearly had to clean bread & blackberry jam off my monitor.

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  67. Lydia, I don’t think its sin to go to a church with a woman pastor, its just I would choose not to be a member with one. Besides this blog isn’t a church and I won’t condemn you if you consider yourself a pastor. That is not my intention.

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  68. The truth is, JA, I’ve always looked for the opportunity to use the way cool “strike through code”. I think I got it out of my system… 😉

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  69. Square1. I loved what you wrote to Lydia earlier, she is who I want to be when I find my courage & my voice, if I ever do. Meanwhile I am a mouse in the corner (most of the time) drinking in the words of brave men & women! Love this space that Julie Ann has provided, it has been invaluable.

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  70. “Mark Driscoll is just a christian punk version of Howard Stern”.

    Just last night I told my husband about Fiscal’s “I See Things” sermon, along with the sex in his marriage book and he said the EXACT same thing!

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  71. Andrew: “You assume I don’t understand these words yet somehow you do understand and that you somehow have the special knowledge or revelation that I don’t. Look in the mirror Patrice.”

    Ach, I claim no special knowledge. I was merely hoping that you yourself could sense deeply (more deeply than knowledge of scripture can offer) this astonishing love of God. I want you to experience to the bottom of your toes the immense graciousness God has for us all. I suspect you don’t or you wouldn’t be judgmental throughout your conversation with me, seen even here, “Look in the mirror Patrice.”

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  72. Thank you, Gail. From what I’ve read by you on this blog, you’re no mouse but a gracious, kind, encouraging soul much loved by others who have gathered here at this refuge.

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  73. “Lydia, I don’t think its sin to go to a church with a woman pastor, its just I would choose not to be a member with one. Besides this blog isn’t a church and I won’t condemn you if you consider yourself a pastor. That is not my intention.”

    Let me quote you Andrew:
    “But I will never go to a church with a female senior pastor. I just won’t. Sorry.”

    Hmm. I do have to wonder how this might play out. Suppose a niece is being baptized in a church with a female pastor. Would you dare attend? Suppose a dear friends funeral is being held in a church with female officiating.

    I suppose you meant you would not be a “member” of a church with a female pastor. But I am trying to figure out why that is different. Because of a title? A pulpit? The idea that one is “under the authority” of the one preaching? (which is a ridiculous notion altogether)

    The irony is there are “female pastors” all around you. They just don’t have titles, buildings, pulpits or stages. They don’t need them those sorts of accoutrements. They mostly rely on the real thing :o)

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  74. Square1 and Gail,

    Wow, (blushing) you both have given me a lift today. Even us meanies need encouragement from our siblings.

    “From here and other places (PPT, Argo’s etc), it’s clear you have a grasp that spiritual abuse goes far beyond bad behavior but builds off an entirely false foundation. ”

    Yes!!! It took years to figure it out, too. But I will say that I sometimes think ignorance might be more blissful but I don’t think that is what we should do with our brains and senses with which we are endowed. I was so numb from what I saw and experienced that I literally went home, drew the blinds and asked God—who is Jesus Christ? Because if what I saw and experienced is normal I cannot have a part of it. That can be a desperate journey. What do you tell your children? Well, as much truth as their little concrete brains can handle. And then more as they learn more abstract thinking. In fact, children can really be a catalyst for the journey. Think about this: how would you explain the spiritual abuse we discuss here to a 10 year old or even an athiest. How would you explain it as part of Christianity? As representing Jesus Christ—living the kingdom now?

    Most normal 10 year olds would say that is not fair and the mean people must be punished. And guess what? They are right! And their punishment should be stepping down from ministry and selling used cars. :o)

    The athiest would tell you it is all fake and proves there is no God. And guess what? The athiest is right on one part of it. Too many Christians are walking around proving there is no real mercifiul loving God every day. Most of them in paid ministry with manyr followers. Just look at someone like Mark Driscoll. His popularity came from marketing a cruel angry God that despises women. People flocked to it but like all megas, it is many a turnstyle entrance. AS many going out the back as are coming in the front.

    Amazing how upside down it all is and we called it normal.

    What do I want? I want people independent and free to have a real intimate relationship with their Savior. Not through a guru. I want this generation coming up free to find cures for cancer, creating exciting companies that enrich others— not obeying some charlatan whether in politics or church. I want us all to live out our God given potential and help others who, as a result of the fall, cannot help themselves. We have given way too much of our precious selves and time to the charlatans. It is very “Christian” to stand up to the religous bullies the white washed tombs. Jesus did.

    And Gail, you are NOT a mouse. You are a precious and worthy soul finding her way. On a journey. I am so happy we are on it together. You do know we will all meet one day? Right?

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  75. Square1- Jesus loved on me through your words. Thank-you!

    Lydia- I never thought of the fact that we are siblings, that makes me smile, love the way you think & write. What a glorious blast it will be to meet (one day) the faces behind the screen names. Being on the journey together here has made it less lonely, and a tad mind blowing on how many frauds there in the church. I love that I got out, and have found so many other voices telling some of my story. No more celebrity pastors on a pedestal for me yay.

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  76. Ach, I claim no special knowledge. I was merely hoping that you yourself could sense deeply (more deeply than knowledge of scripture can offer) this astonishing love of God. I want you to experience to the bottom of your toes the immense graciousness God has for us all. I suspect you don’t or you wouldn’t be judgmental throughout your conversation with me, seen even here, “Look in the mirror Patrice.”
    _______________________________________________________________

    If your words were meant to be encouraging than I’m sorry I didn’t take it that way but I sensed quite a bit a judgement myself. God’s love is truly astonishing and won’t make light of that and I want that for you as well. I encourage you not to suspect anything about strangers.

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  77. My wife has helped me in many ways I am aware of and I am sure many more ways I am not. One comment of hers years ago was: “Do you really think that God didn’t watch over the transcription of the King James Bible?”
    It opened my eyes. I helped me to realize that people claiming one has to know the Greek or Aramaic this or that or about historical context and this or that often are using that argument to subvert the simply written words of the Bible. (The devil in the garden of Eden used the same semantic tricks to create doubt/confusion.) Of course the Bible’s transcription was overseen by God and that is why it is perfect. Would God have made his word available to the world in its most commonly spoken language only if one also studied other texts or took history courses? Of course not.

    I notice many professing Christians here feel that female pastors are God ordained. What does the Bible say about that specific issue?
    “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out of you? or came it unto you only?” 1 COR 14:33-36.

    Paul’s two questions after his clearly worded commandment seem to mock those who would disagree. Would you answer Paul by stating the word of God came out of you and that is why you disagree with him or that the word of God only came to you and that is why he is wrong?
    For those arguing for doing something that Pauls says “is a shame … in the church”, where is your shame in promoting that?

    When the Bible says “God is love” and a Christian repeats that, in your eyes, does that make them legalistic/pharisiacal/comp/pat or whatever other terms you throw out to defend your belief system or do those labels only apply when the scripture quoted goes against your teaching that Paul calls shameful?

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  78. Lydia said,

    “Think about this: how would you explain the spiritual abuse we discuss here to a 10 year old or even an athiest.”

    Well, since I’ve been coming here, I’ve felt an urgency to warn my 14 yr./o daughter about the (dare I say it?) agenda behind this comp. thinking. We home school, she’s a very attractive, naturally shy and modest young thing, and I worry that her shyness and modesty will make her an easy target for these VisionForum-educated “knights in shining armor” young men who may come a courtin’ one day. I wish there was a book on this to educate/warn her age group (hint, hint…).

    “And their punishment should be stepping down from ministry and selling used cars.”

    If the offense falls short of the law, then yes! But from what I’ve been reading lately on Driscoll, Phillips and Gothard, surely the law has more than it needs to step in and take action. For the life of me, I can’t comprehend why this isn’t happening.

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  79. Christian Father/Husband said,

    “My wife has helped me in many ways I am aware of and I am sure many more ways I am not. One comment of hers years ago was: ‘Do you really think that God didn’t watch over the transcription of the King James Bible?‘”

    Was she reading Gail Riplinger at the time?

    I prefer the King James too, but clearly recognize the need to reach for the original Greek/Hebrew meanings; it is a translation after all.

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  80. “Well, since I’ve been coming here, I’ve felt an urgency to warn my 14 yr./o daughter about the (dare I say it?) agenda behind this comp. thinking.”

    I agree…oh boy do I agree! Get her to talk about what she is taught at church, too. I have been doing this with mine since she was about 4 and it has progressed into a habit and the issues become more relavent when they are preteens. You can ward off a lot of potential future problems. I don’t want to tell her what to think I want her to “think” about what she is taught.

    I have a formula I use with her about any proof texting she is taught. It goes like this: Who is speaking, who is the audience and what is the occassion.

    That gets them thinking about context. Just today over lunch some stuff came up about the book of Matthew in her SS class and Jesus talking about divorce. Since we have worked with some divorced moms out of abuse this really got her dander up to be told only adultery is cause for divorce. I was able to bring in the whole context of “any cause” divorce the Pharisees were alluding to and the other problems associated with teaching it as a proof text.

    We cannot put them in bubbles so we had best start talking to them and teaching them to think independently and not fall for wanting more to be “liked” by whatever group they are in first and foremost. It is a constant worry for me.

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  81. “Being on the journey together here has made it less lonely, and a tad mind blowing on how many frauds there in the church. I love that I got out, and have found so many other voices telling some of my story. No more celebrity pastors on a pedestal for me yay.”

    And that is what siblings in Christ are all about. The support, encouragement, warnings, challenging each others thinking, etc.

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  82. “I notice many professing Christians here feel that female pastors are God ordained.”

    I have never thought that. I do not see the concept of “ordination” as a ceremonial institutionalized mandate of scripture. Neither are pulpits for that matter. They are actually pagan in nature and come from the Greek Temples being converted to “churches” during Constantine. The Greek Temples had “orators” who used them. Sounds familiar. :o)

    What is ordination all about? Mere men taking a Greek word and making it into a ceremonial institutionalized mandate. A simple laying on of hands and praying over those functioning the Body. And then worse, people start claiming what “God ordains” on tertiary issues. Scary stuff.

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  83. “My wife has helped me in many ways I am aware of and I am sure many more ways I am not. One comment of hers years ago was: ‘Do you really think that God didn’t watch over the transcription of the King James Bible?‘”

    It is instructive to read the original (and very long) preface the KJV translators wrote. It is not in the translations because it is too long. It is online somewhere. I read it quite a while ago. It is very instructive. In fact, your wife might change her mind when she sees what the actual translators wrote. They would disgree with her to some degree.

    And when you read the history leading up to the KJ translation it becomes even more clear why they felt the need for such a long preface. The demand for the translation from King James (and his yes men) was political. Not spiritual.

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  84. “For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. What? came the word of God out of you? or came it unto you only?” 1 COR 14:33-36.”

    The key is in the “what”. The KJ actually has the best translation of this passage I think because they actually put in the “what”. Paul is being sarcastic. The word of God only comes out of YOU ONLY?

    It cannot be what you think because Paul is referencing women propehsying in the Body in chapter 11. And that Paul makes it clear there that women will also be “judging the angels” which he mentions in chapter 6.

    And an even bigger problem for your interpretation is the Greek word for “silent” means NO SOUND AT ALL. So no singing, prophesying, etc. That totally negates chapter 11 were Paul talks about it happening in real time. But he did rebuke it in chapter 11. It also totally negates the Joel Prophecy Peter quotes in Acts.

    We do know that Paul is answering questions put to him in that letter. Some translations put quotes around some of the questions but we know such things were not used in original Greek so it is translator bias where they are in the letter.

    What we are reading in verses 34-35 are almost word for word seen in the Talmud/Mishna. We know the man made laws taught that women were to be totally silent in the synagogues. Make no noise at all and ask their husbands when they got home. (You are also assuming all women in the Corinthian church had a husband to ask)

    So your point is moot and based on faulty interpretation that literally contradicts other parts of the same letter!

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  85. “….as also saith the law.”

    BTW, Can you show me where this is taught in Torah?

    You cannot. It is taught in the “law” Paul referenced which was the “oral law” to the NT reader. Much of what the Pharisees taught.

    There is a lot of confusion out there when the word “law” is referenced. Make sure the context is not the oral law before claiming it is Mosaic Law.

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  86. “I have been doing this with mine since she was about 4 and it has progressed into a habit and the issues become more relavent when they are preteens. You can ward off a lot of potential future problems. I don’t want to tell her what to think I want her to ‘think’ about what she is taught.”

    Since she was 4! She couldn’t be in better hands. Unfortunately, for me, I’m very late to the game, and kind of “alone” in my family regarding my discoveries and current convictions. Beginning about 4 years ago, I began to question specific things I had swallowed through our regular dose of mixed-bag Christian teaching, which included lots of Keswick theology (no abuse suffered, just got to *THINKING* and asking questions, all fueled and led by His Holy Spirit within me). Suffice it to say, the more I learn, the longer I feel stuck at “square1”, but the once waxing and waning of peace and eternal security in Him is *at last* constant and unchanging.

    “I have a formula I use with her about any proof texting she is taught. It goes like this: Who is speaking, who is the audience and what is the occassion.”

    I like that. I have a similar one which I’ve since been drilling into my children’s minds too: Question Everything! Get to the FOUNDATION of a preacher/teacher/organization’s theology- if they get the gospel wrong (and most do, usually always through works via all kinds of subtle key phrases, walk away – JUSTIFICATION and SANCTIFICATION are separate!!)

    You’re a pleasure, Lydia. Thank you so much for “talking” with me.

    ~square1 aka Pearl

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  87. Don’tbe impressed! It just so happened she turned the age of 4 When I first became aware of spiritual abuse!

    But it is never too late! In fact when they are older even in their 20’s….. You can try to go on a spiritual journey together. I have seen other friends do this By admitting to their older children how wrong they were And can they talk to them about how they got sucked into it in the first place.
    ..

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  88. So true. It’s important that my kids see me as sincere yet fallible. This is why God doesn’t have grandchildren! We’re on the road together.

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  89. (ugh)…feel the need to clarify…

    “sincere yet fallible” – I sure don’t mean that in the same antinomian vein which so permeates much of Christendom today; that sickens me. I’m not weak and helpless, but a new creation no longer subject to teachers and preachers, for I have ONE teacher Who guides, leads and teaches me: Jesus Christ, Lover of my soul.

    So, I teach my children likewise! 🙂

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  90. Square1, Here are some other questions you can ask when someone says something and you’re not sure where they’re coming from:

    “What do you mean by…” (put in “complementarianism, or “head” or whatever)
    “How do you know that to be true?”
    “What difference does that make?”
    “What if you’re wrong?”

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  91. Absolutely, WRNSay – I’ve been daring to flex those muscles lately, especially since [recently] learning that this thing called complementarianism ain’t neccessarily so!

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  92. Dear Christian Father,

    “Do you really think that God didn’t watch over the transcription of the King James Bible?”

    I would answer your wife, “He certainly did watch over it.” But that doesn’t mean that He protected it from all error or bias. As far as I can tell, the Bible has been the victim of copying errors and odd translations for centuries, long before those working for King James came down the pike. (The Septuagint in particular comes to mind.) It’s part of what God was willing to put up with when He entrusted His Word to us.

    That’s why it’s so important to read the Bible with wisdom: including (I think) the wisdom we gain from history, from science, from sociology, and from common human experience. Those who brought God’s communication to us centuries ago were very careful and conscientious, and preserved it faithfully for the most part. And I still believe in the Bible as the inspired Word of God. But I think it’s also important to interpret Scripture in light of our knowledge and experience, as well as the other way around. Otherwise, I fear we miss out on a lot of things that God wants to teach us.

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  93. The irony is there are “female pastors” all around you. They just don’t have titles, buildings, pulpits or stages. They don’t need them those sorts of accoutrements. They mostly rely on the real thing :o)
    ______________________________________________________________

    OK, I agree its not about the building, pulpits or stages, so curious where are the female open air preachers? Don’t blame it on Tony Miano that there are no woman doing it. He can’t stop you! Serious, what is he going to do to stop a woman who wants to open air preach?

    Like

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