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Open Air Preacher Street Evangelist Tony Miano Gives Rules and Guidelines for Women Open Air Preaching and Reading Scripture to Men
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We’ve discussed open air preacher, Tony Miano before. He used to work at Living Waters with Ray Comfort. In the video below, he claims that he taught approximately 200 women how to do open air preaching. He said he had to later repent of this because God had shown him that it is wrong for women to preach. Remember, Tony Miano is the author of a fairly new book, Should She Preach, so this is his pet topic.
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I want to primarily discuss the transcribed quotes which were taken from the video, above. (Special thanks to Diane who transcribed this for us.)
Note: Miano’s run-on sentences and poor sentence structures made this difficult to transcribe.
17 min mark: Miano is asked how women may be involved in evangelizing the lost.
“Women engaging in one-to-one conversations – so long as those are appropriate conversations – I feel that while it is not a sin per se for a woman to engage a man in a conversation, there are a number of reasons why I think a woman should avoid that. Certainly any hint of impropriety, remaining above reproach, and you can so quickly, I think, in those conversations, cross the line from sharing the gospel one to one to sharing the gospel in a small group, exercising authority over men. But, no, God has called every Christian to go and make disciples.”
18:22 min mark:
“The idea of women open air preaching again and why it is wrong is it goes against God’s design.
Uh, men are called by God in creation to lead women. God has given men and women equal dignity spiritually, but has given us distinctly different roles.
And whenever a woman stands up on a box to proclaim the gospel in the open air, or even read scripture aloud, she is taking on the role of a man. She is taking on an authoritative role over whoever is listening to her.
The mere reading of scripture is to exercise authority because scripture is the authority.
And a woman cannot help but to sacrifice femininity when she stands on a box and exercises authority over a group of people.
But that does not mean that women do not have a critically important role in evangelism in the context of the local church – whether it’s distributing tracts, engaging people in conversation, praying for those who are open air preaching, being a person of accountability especially in places like abortion clinics.
While the men should be out there doing the preaching, we need women out there to be counseling these women. It the Lord breaks them through the proclamation of the law and the gospel, it ought not be me putting my hand on a woman’s shoulder who is broken, and comforting and consoling her, it should be a woman.
And so there’s a critical need for women out on the streets being involved in evangelism, but under the authority of the men of the church, having the same level of spiritual dignity as any man out there, but fulfilling a critically important role that is not the role of a man.”
20:54 mark:
“I think one of the greatest threats to American evangelicalism is a growing level of egalitarianism. I think men generally speaking, broad brush, I think men in American evangelicalism are weak. I think they’re effeminate.
I think women are taking on roles that they may not otherwise ever even think of taking, uh, because the men aren’t standing up.
Uh, men in American evangelicalism act like male lions in a pride of lions. They mate, they sleep for twenty hours a day, and then they eat the fruit of the harvest from all the women making the kills. Um, and that’s not – that’s not biblical. I think that’s a huge threat, uh, to American evangelicalism.”
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So, what do you think? Let’s hash this out.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Wow, lots of problems with this TOUGH Tony. First off when a woman (or anyone else for that matter) stands on a box and preaches they are not taking authority over anyone. Most people passing by ignore them all together. The very idea of a woman reading the scriptures aloud being classified as sin is a sheer abomination. Reading God’s word is never sin and I’m totally disgusted by anyone implying otherwise. A woman sharing her faith, boldly proclaiming the redemption of the gospel should be cheered by all believers. We are all called to advance the gospel and sometimes a woman is the best man for the job.
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“I think one of the greatest threats to American evangelicalism is a growing level of egalitarianism. I think men generally speaking, broad brush, I think men in American evangelicalism are weak. I think they’re effeminate.” -Quote from Tony. No Tony, men who have to control women and are threatened by them preaching are weak. Are you going to tell Jesus you think Mary was sinning when she went to the men, as Jesus told her to do, to tell them He had risen from the dead?
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I have a problem with Tony Miano equating ‘sharing the gospel’ with ‘exercising authority.’ Surely, when sharing the gospel, whether one on one or in a group, one is giving one’s own experience and thoughts, one’s own understanding of Scripture passages. You are introducing people to Christ, hopefully whetting their appetite for them to want to know Him more, not ordering them into belief. You can’t force anyone to believe. They can hear your words and make up their own minds as to whether or not they agree or disagree with what you say. Maybe God will use something you say or do that will speak directly to one of your listeners. It will probably be something you are not even aware of.
(Besides, didn’t Jesus Himself say that if His followers keep quiet about Him, then the stones will shout out instead?!)
Regarding reading Scripture aloud: Having attended churches where readers were not limited by their gender, this attitude that forbids women from reading aloud in church is bizarre. The only criticism I ever received regarding reading in church was to slow down. Whether Scripture is read out by men or by women or by children, the authority is in the message and not in the reader. ISTM that Mr Miano is ‘shooting the messenger’ by saying women may not read Scripture aloud.
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Tony Miano is a little nobody who wants the big shots to accept him so he can use their names for credibility for donations. One of the issues that gets you accepted easily in those circles is to espouse the patriarchy silliness. I am sure Tony believes it but it certainly does not match his lifestyle which is sending his wife out to work to support the family. That makes him a sounding gong. His words and actions do not match. Not a great witness for his patriarchical teaching.
His wife cannot read scripture aloud but she can labor to support him? His view of women is not very respectful at all. Looks to me as a Patriarchalist, he uses her as opposed to taking care of her. So that is his version of Patriarchy?
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Sorry, when the scripture is read aloud, and it effects someone’s heart – either convicting them of sin, or encouraging them, or saving them, or whatever – that is the work of the Holy Spirit, not the reader.
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“And whenever a woman stands up on a box to proclaim the gospel in the open air, or even read scripture aloud, she is taking on the role of a man. She is taking on an authoritative role over whoever is listening to her.”
Tell that to Mary Magdalene, called the first apostle of the Resurrection by the Church Fathers, who proclaimed the risen Jesus to her brothers in Christ …
“The mere reading of scripture is to exercise authority because scripture is the authority.”
Even if one takes a complementarian view – which I don’t – this makes no sense, because Scripture has authority over both men and women. Even within a hardline complementarian framework, this makes no sense, because a woman reading Scripture isn’t actually TEACHING men. But I never underestimate the efforts of hardline ‘complementarianism’ (gosh, that’s a horrid word) and patriarchy to try to box women in …!
“And a woman cannot help but to sacrifice femininity when she stands on a box and exercises authority over a group of people.”
No, no, my good man, she does no such thing. Julie Anne, I’m an egalitarian lady from the UK. I am not ‘sacrificing my femininity’ when I read Scripture aloud in church. Good grief. 🙂
How far do people like Tony Miano take their patriarchal views? Is he talking here just about women exercising authority over ‘a group of people’ in church or generally?
If women are not meant to ‘exercise authority over groups of people’, how come women teaching children and ‘exercising authority’ over them is acceptable? (I suppose that children don’t matter so much? LOL.) Therein lie the many contradictions and inconsistencies within ‘complementarianism’.
Egalitarianism is simpler by far. No angst about ‘can women do this, should women do that’. In Christ, YES THEY CAN. In the same spirit of humble service that should characterise all those who claim to follow Him.
I also repudiate this false meme that egalitarianism makes men WEAK. No, no it doesn’t. I know many men who would identify as egalitarian who treat women with respect and actually seem to LIKE them, rather than seeming to be suspicious of women and wanting to control them. They are true men.
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“Are you going to tell Jesus you think Mary was sinning when she went to the men, as Jesus told her to do, to tell them He had risen from the dead?”
I remember Miano’s answer to this that I read somewhere. I will try to find it for curiosity’s sake- but it was something along the lines that Mary did not preach the law and the gospel so it was not technically preaching. Miano also wrote, and I am not joking, that we don’t even know if Mary talked about the Lord’s resurrection “in the open air” so it cannot be a comparison (paraphrased), iirc.
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Can anyone say “American Taliban?”
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—Also with his emphasis on roles, Tony is in the wrong profession. He should be teaching in a drama department. He could write all the scripts and create whatever roles he wants. Or he could become a baker and bake roles–sorry, my mistake that would be rolls. Silly me. Trying to post without a penis.:-)
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Excellent comment, WRNS – – and if you follow his line of logic, look at how much credibility and power he is giving MEN and their WORKS by open air preaching. He’s claiming by just reading the Bible, that amazingly, THEY (MEN) become authoritative.
HE and MEN get the credit for this, but where is God in this picture? Doesn’t God change the hearts of men? It also makes me think of men as mediator – as if we must go through male street preachers to get to God. Does anyone else see that implication?
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You know what else I find interesting – – and I could be biased because of the guys who regularly post here, it sure seems that the men who don’t want to be in control over their wives seem to respond much more quickly and strongly to the abuse of women and abuse in general. Again, who is acting more like men?
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I know a six year old boy who occasionally sounds like this. (Never fear, we’re working on it and I am confident he will grow up and stop acting like this.)
See, this 6 yo wants to be the best. The most important, the most admired, the most impressive, etc. This is a good thing to strive for. The problem is that rather than striving to do great things and thereby rise up, he attempts to drag others down and make them lesser. For example, if he looses a race, he might get angry that the other person refused to slow down and allow him to win, when he should be focused on running faster next time.
Yes, this a random illustration. But this tendency to excel by dragging others down rather than by actually rising above is what I see in far too many “spiritual” grown men.
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Matthew 23:23 and 24 comes to mind:
“But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness.”
Isn’t a Christian woman indwelt with the same Holy Spirit as Tony? What about the woman at the well who went and told the whole village about Jesus?
“You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.”
After a while, this all sounds so much like “straining at gnats” to me.
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“I think men in American evangelicalism are weak. I think they’re effeminate.”
“Uh, men in American evangelicalism act like male lions in a pride of lions. They mate, they sleep for twenty hours a day, and then they eat the fruit of the harvest from all the women making the kills. Um, and that’s not – that’s not biblical. I think that’s a huge threat, uh, to American evangelicalism.”
Here lies Tony’s true motivation…he is afraid of men losing power so he will say and believe what is necessary in order for men to maintain power in America (at least in churches). He is the one who feels threatened by women having more opportunities. Change for women (for the better) continues to happen and Tony wants to live in the glory days when men were in charge and all women could do was be home and raise children or work menial jobs.
In order to get the men on his side and rally for the way things used to be, he calls men having authority over women “Biblical.” It’s easy for gullible men and women to fall in line behind him when they hear that it is “Biblical.”
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I noticed in the interview that while Miano says it’s not a SIN (gee…thanks) for a woman to engage a man in a conversation, it should be avoided, but then goes on to say but every Christian is called to make disciples, which, I assume, he means women as well.
But if a woman “engages” (to use his word) a man to share the gospel with (which is already treading on thin ice), AND reads scripture to him, isn’t that a double whammy blashpemy? She is exerting authority over a man by reading the scriptures; yet, the scriptures have the power to save…so how does one engage a person to share the gospel without sharing the scriptures? Best women stay away from all men to steer clear of these complications. LOL.
“…and then they eat the fruit of the harvest from all the women making the kills. Um, and that’s not – that’s not biblical.”
Just like Miano is doing by allowing his wife to make the kill$ so he can eat.
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Jesus said that none of his followers should exercise “authority” over other followers.
The problem with many evangelicals is that they are hung up over authority. We are all to be priests, on equal footing, and to share the gospel message, encourage one another, etc., etc. No one is to be left out. It is not a matter of “authority” but of obedience to Christ. And Jesus did not teach any such garbage about a supposed differential role for women vis a vis men.
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It seems like it is all about power and control for these guys. And to look good in each other’s eyes. Yet Jesus’ words in Matthew 20:25-28 are pretty clear – we are NOT to lord over each other or exercise authority over each other, we are to SERVE one another, be slaves to one another.
And look at Galatians 1:10 – Paul talks about NOT trying to win the approval of men. (and I’m pretty sure there is at least one other passage where Paul talks about not seeking the approval of men, but God instead).
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I love this from Miano’s former boss, Ray Comfort, whom Miano recently praised as a dear friend, dear brother, one of the most godly men he knows. (Although one wonders how Comfort can be one of the godliest men Miano knows when Comfort believes what Tony believes to be a horrible thing–so much so that Miano had to write a book about it (as a repentance to God he says, while charging a fee for the repentance), to right the wrongs he had perpetrated upon women under Comfort’s leadership at Living Waters by teaching them they can “herald” God’s word.):
“After the woman at the well met the Savior, she witnessed to men (see John 4:28). Did she do this on a one-to-one basis, and become silent if more than one man gathered in the open air to listen to her testify? Thank God that she wasn’t silent: “And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did” (John 4:39).
When giving the do’s and don’ts of preaching in the open air, R.A. Torrey said, “None but consecrated men and women will ever succeed in open-air meetings.”(1) The Salvation Army were famous for their open air preaching– “The Salvation Army gave women equal responsibility with men for preaching and welfare work and on one occasion William Booth remarked that: ‘My best men are women!’”(2)”
“I thank God that He chose women rather than men to be first to herald the good news of the resurrected Savior. These faithful woman took the good news to a group of hard-hearted, faithless men, who were cringing in fear behind locked doors. That makes me wonder if the men who want women to be in silence, preach in the open air themselves. Could it be that they are embarrassed by the fact that women are doing what they don’t have the courage to do themselves?”
Read more:
http://www.onthebox.us/2012/07/should-woman-testify-in-open-air.html
I imagine Miano vehemently disagrees with the above excerpts and the entire article since he once used to believe this and has changed his mind…um, I mean, God has shown/told him THE CORRECT VERSION now.
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Not when they’re supposed to stay barefoot and pregnant….
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Any professing Christian “leader” who tells any disciple of Jesus, that they “should not” or “must not” be obedient to Christ, evangelize, speak of Jesus, preach the gospel, proclaim the Truth, or make disciples of Jesus, (which is part of loving your neighbor as He commanded) is a false teacher and is not speaking for Jesus Christ but is very much working against Christ. Woe.
To make evangelism and proclaiming the gospel about being obsessed with sex (that is, male roles, female roles) authoritarianism, power, control and domination over women, is to create a cult.
Jesus Christ Himself is the power and the authority, and HE has given His authority to the daughters of God (the sisters in Christ) to also witness and speak of Him, or read scripture, to anyone, as HE leads them by the Spirit.
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That’s some good preaching, Loretta.
I’m sure Miano fans just cringed reading that – lol.
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Luk 2:36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;
Luk 2:37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.
Luk 2:38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
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Tony Miano seems to be channeling his inner Mark Driscoll! This is all about power and control and has nothing to do with the gospel according to Jesus. I cannot imagine this man has much experience out in the corporate world, this type of attitude would get him slapped with a sexual harassment lawsuit.
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Welcome, hoshiana, and thanks for those great references showing God using women to accomplish His purposes.
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haha: “channeling his inner MD”
Funny!!!
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Channeling his inner Mark Driscoll ? Nah… Archie Bunker maybe.
Mark Driscoll is just a christian punk version of Howard Stern. Filthy mind and mouth that makes listening to the fool in mixed company a challenge. Something is wrong with a guy that stands behind a pulpit and shares how he enjoys sodomizing his wife, discusses sexual topics not mentioned in the scriptures during his “sermon” and takes it upon himself to say what is ok within the marriage bed. The guy is a total pervert, Tough Tony on the other hand is just an idiot.
Tony is the typical ex-cop bully looking for an angle to make a buck. He needs to subsidize his wife’s earning until she can do a better job of supporting the family all by herself while Tony engages in cheap publicity stunts. While he would like to be doing the Bible Answer Man broadcast ,he has a better shot at being that costumed character BIBLE man. Three and four year olds would be really impressed by him handing out balloons at birthday parties.
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And in the context of the verses Hoshiana presented, “prophesy” means “proclaim” or what we would call “preach”. The verses clearly show women to be preaching. God proclaimed it, and any who stand against women preaching are standing against God!
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hoshiana, Don’t you find it interesting the Joel prophecy is ignored or the word prophesy is totally redefined so that half the body is silenced? Obviously there is no prohibition on women preaching to men in either the OT or the NT.
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Diana, Catherine Booth was something else!
http://www.cresourcei.org/cbooth.html
As was Dr. Katherine Bushnell
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Jaysgirl84 said: “Tony Miano seems to be channeling his inner Mark Driscoll!”
That was exactly what I thought when Tony said, “I think men in American evangelicalism are weak. I think they’re effeminate.”
Driscoll has used the same type of words to describe men. Not only do they try to put women in their place, but there is also a social hierarchy for men who do what they’re supposed to do (or don’t do what they – Miano & Driscoll – think they should do)..
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Kathi,
The “weak and effeminate” statement is exactly what triggered that thought😉
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So, it’s okay for Miano’s wife to work OUTSIDE the home and support his lazy derriere while he argues with folks on twitter all day and does NOT work? Who gave him the right to say women really shouldn’t speak to men? Where is any kind of scriptural support {not that there is any} for his off the wall ideas? Somebody show me, from Scripture, where ANYBODY is supposed to stand on a step ladder with a bull horn and screech at people who are minding their own business. I see NO biblical mandate for this, this is man’s invention. With that said, how can anybody say women can or cannot do it? If the Bible is silent on this issue, then Miano needs to zip his lip as well. He’ making up his own rules, he’s adding to the word of God something it doesn’t say; and that is sin! He doesn’t get it, and NOBODY in his circle of friends does either. They defend some man-made method of ‘preaching’ then try to claim a woman better not attempt it!
Preaching is NOT equal to being in a position of authority, as he so erroneously tries to claim. To proclaim the Gospel to the lost does not mean we stand in authority over them; only a person with a huge ego would come up with this horrific twist of Scripture. Jesus told His disciples ” Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.” Preach is defined by Strongs as ‘to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel): – preach (-er), proclaim, publish.’ Miano needs to learn how to study the Bible in context. To herald the Gospel is like a town crier, someone {in this case, the disciples} who speaks forth something in particular. Nowhere does that equate ‘authority’.
One of the greatest threats to Evangelicalism is uncalled men like Miano going off half-cocked and trying to enforce rules and legalistic ideas that the Bible simply does NOT teach! Men like Miano want to oppress women and set themselves up as authority over the ‘weaker sex’. He forgets, as a husband, he is called to love his wife as Christ loves the church. How loving is it that his wife MUST work to support the family while her husband barks orders and sits home all day? Or hangs out at the abortuary screaming at women? Or singles out the sin of homosexuality in hopes he’ll draw attention to himself? So many men want to be little ‘gods’ over others…pride is JUST as deadly as murder, and homosexuality Tony – you need to take the log out of your own eye before you ever attempt to have the audacity to point to another person’s sins! Shame on you Tony, shame on you for setting yourself up so high, elevating yourself to a position you have no right to take.
Chew on this verse Tony Miano, if you do NOT come under conviction, then you need to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith – “But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.” 1Timothy 5:8
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How does standing on a box and speaking to people = exercising authority over them? That’s his opinion only.
He’s having to read a lot of things into the Bible to arrive there. The Bible does not say women cannot or should not speak to crowds of people, or stand on boxes to address crowds, etc.
He’s adding rules on to the Word of God, like the Pharisees did. He has a “Talmud of Permissible Actions of Women.” That’s all his, and none of God’s doing.
He said, “But that does not mean that women do not have a critically important role in evangelism in the context of the local church – whether it’s distributing tracts”
I do not think “distributing tracts” is a “critically important role.” It’s like the boss at your job giving you a lousy job nobody wants but who tries to assure you it’s so very vital. It’s called “polishing a t–d.” (rhymes with curd).
It’s like churches who sideline women with law degrees or whatever advanced degrees, education, or talent, by telling them they can only serve in the kitchen baking cookies for the men folk, and how gosh darn “vital” that is to the survival of the church. They’re not fooling anyone.
He said, “It the Lord breaks them through the proclamation of the law and the gospel, it ought not be me putting my hand on a woman’s shoulder who is broken, and comforting and consoling her, it should be a woman.”
He may or may not have a point there. Most women, yes, might feel way more comfortable with another women concerning some issues (such as going into or leaving an abortion clinic), but if this is another one of those paranoid Christian things about how each and every male-female interaction = sexual tension, count me out.
I’m tired of single women being isolated by Christians because they fear any man and woman being alone at all, in each and any circumstance, will always end in sex because neither or both can control themselves.
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Tony said,
“I feel that while it is not a sin per se for a woman to engage a man in a conversation, there are a number of reasons why I think a woman should avoid that.”
What? If women aren’t supposed to engage men in conversation, how else are they to communicate, smoke signals? Sign language? How am I ever going to marry if I can’t go on a date with a guy and talk to him?
If I’m talking to a guy and his house is on fire, all I’m allowed to do is point at his house and flail my arms around, hoping he turns to look and see the fire? I guess I could call 911 to report the fire, but what if I get a male operator on the line? I can’t mime that stuff over the phone.
This guy has lots of strange ideas about women and gender roles. And the Bible does not back them up.
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So what does Miano do with Huldah?
2 Kings 22
8 Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the secretary, “I have found the Book of the Law in the temple of the Lord.” He gave it to Shaphan, who read it. 9 Then Shaphan the secretary went to the king and reported to him: “Your officials have paid out the money that was in the temple of the Lord and have entrusted it to the workers and supervisors at the temple.” 10 Then Shaphan the secretary informed the king, “Hilkiah the priest has given me a book.” And Shaphan read from it in the presence of the king.
11 When the king heard the words of the Book of the Law, he tore his robes. 12 He gave these orders to Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam son of Shaphan, Akbor son of Micaiah, Shaphan the secretary and Asaiah the king’s attendant: 13 “Go and inquire of the Lord for me and for the people and for all Judah about what is written in this book that has been found. Great is the Lord’s anger that burns against us because those who have gone before us have not obeyed the words of this book; they have not acted in accordance with all that is written there concerning us.”
14 Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Akbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophet Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the New Quarter.
15 She said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: Tell the man who sent you to me, 16 ‘This is what the Lord says: I am going to bring disaster on this place and its people, according to everything written in the book the king of Judah has read. 17 Because they have forsaken me and burned incense to other gods and aroused my anger by all the idols their hands have made,[a] my anger will burn against this place and will not be quenched.’ 18 Tell the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of the Lord, ‘This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says concerning the words you heard: 19 Because your heart was responsive and you humbled yourself before the Lord when you heard what I have spoken against this place and its people—that they would become a curse[b] and be laid waste—and because you tore your robes and wept in my presence, I also have heard you, declares the Lord. 20 Therefore I will gather you to your ancestors, and you will be buried in peace. Your eyes will not see all the disaster I am going to bring on this place.’”
So they took her answer back to the king.
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Scott wrote~
“Tony is the typical ex-cop bully looking for an angle to make a buck. He needs to subsidize his wife’s earning until she can do a better job of supporting the family all by herself while Tony engages in cheap publicity stunts. While he would like to be doing the Bible Answer Man broadcast ,he has a better shot at being that costumed character BIBLE man. Three and four year olds would be really impressed by him handing out balloons at birthday parties.”
I can’t possibly agree more with this.
He did mention he has hopes of being involved with JMac’s Grace Advance or whatever it is called…the church planting part of GCC. He also mentioned working as an assistant of some sort to the church planting pastor. I cannot recall it all-it was in either the above interview or one I listened to on Echo zoe the other day.
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@ Lydia~
Working my way through God’s Word to Women! Sloooowly. lol
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“How does standing on a box and speaking to people = exercising authority over them?”
Missdaisyflower – obviously if a woman is standing on a box preaching, she may be taller than a man. Therefore, she will have some presumed authority because she will be looking down on a man.
That’s the only logic I can come up with.
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“…obviously if a woman is standing on a box preaching, she may be taller than a man. Therefore, she will have some presumed authority because she will be looking down on a man.”
Aha, I always wondered why women were allowed to teach children…makes sense now…
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Excellent point Lydia; that alone reveals what kind of teaching Miano presents. He tries to make claims the Bible simply doesn’t support.
I wonder, was Huldah standing on a box when she spoke? Was she elevated? Silly questions, I know. BUT, they’re important ones to men like Miano who delight in adding to or taking from God’s word. Too bad he doesn’t spend more time chewing on Deuteronomy 4:2, or Proverbs 30:6 and lastly, 1 Cor. 4:6, ‘I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.’
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I’m looking up stuff and just found this quote. Ok, I’m thinking I need to post this somewhere on my blog. This is a Tony Miano classic. Shoot, I think I need to tweet it, too, for all the female bloggers. (http://www.crossencounters.us/2013/11/christian-women-bloggers-maintaining.html)
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“I feel that while it is not a sin per se for a woman to engage a man in a conversation, there are a number of reasons why I think a woman should avoid that.”
I just cannot get over the sheer stupidity of this statement. My brain is stuttering because it’s simply not logical. And where’s the Bible verses to back this up?
Jesus had women among his followers. When they saw the angel in the tomb, he didn’t say, “Go get a man — conversing with you is a sin!” No, he told them to tell the men that Jesus had risen.
Who was he first person Jesus appeared to? Mary Magdalene. And He had a conversation with her, too!
The Bible is full of examples of women who were chosen to lead and preach and support Jesus. Maybe Mr. Milano forgot all those passages. The world would be much better served if he would get off the streets and get to work to support his family.
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So, what does he do with Acts 18:25-26, “He had been instructed in the way of the Lord. And being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things concerning Jesus, though he knew only the baptism of John. He began to speak boldly in the synagogue, but when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.” It doesn’t say Aquila instructed Apollos, the Holy Spirit states that BOTH of them did.
Again, he makes a declaration with no biblical support. The more he opens his mouth, the more he proves just how false his teachings are.
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“I’m looking up stuff and just found this quote. Ok, I’m thinking I need to post this somewhere on my blog. This is a Tony Miano classic. Shoot, I think I need to tweet it, too, for all the female bloggers.”
Have you noticed that he frequently mentions on his blog posts/videos how he has RE/detractors? People that dislike/disagree with him? Why would someone do this? Does it make him feel legit in some odd way? He is being persecuted so he must be in the right?
In very first paragraph of the women’s blogger post, he does this, again:
“Since the publication of my book, Should She Preach? – Biblical Evangelism for Women, I have received questions from several sisters in Christ regarding to what extent can Christian women write, teach, and or share the gospel online (i.e. blogs, journals, Facebook, Twitter, Google+, etc.). It’s a legitimate question. Some Christian women have asked the question in a sincere and thoughtful way, while others have asked the question with venom in their words, ready for a fight.”
Why is it necessary to add the women “with venom” part?
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Where are bloggers mentioned in scripture? 🙂 Does Milano also denounce women sharing scripture on television, radio, tapes, church letters, movies, theaters, newspaper editorials, religious periodicals, or books? Or does he just prefer that a warning must be posted first against Christian men from “submitting” themselves to these forms of female authority? Even in some hierarchical tribes in African counties, female missionaries were considered ” honorary men” or a “neutered sex” so they could share the gospel with tribal men. ( This happened with a missionary friend in Ethiopia). So an uneducated tribe gives more “wiggle room” to share the gospel than a so-called educated white western man. Who is more primitive? Ann
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“@ Lydia~
Working my way through God’s Word to Women! Sloooowly. lol
”
You go, girl. I had to buy another copy because of the dog eared pages, highlighting and post it notes. Frankly there were things that if I had not studied quite a bit before reading it, I would have found hard to process. The woman goes deep! It is very intense but she approaches it as a scholar which is pretty amazing considering the times she lived in. But the woman was a medical doctor, missionary to China and scholar. Thank God someone found her book and had it republished or it would have been lost.
One thing it affirmed for me is this: If we get Genesis wrong, we get the rest wrong.
Eat your wheaties!!! LOL!
For those interested:
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“Tony said,
“I feel that while it is not a sin per se for a woman to engage a man in a conversation, there are a number of reasons why I think a woman should avoid that.””
Oh dear. Do you think the women traveling around Palestine with Jesus and the 12 while supporting Him (Luke 8) were aware of Tony’s rules of engaging a man in conversation?
“After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.”
Isn’t it wierd to think women who hung around with Jesus in the 1st Century had more freedom to interact with men that those women who are around Tony today? Strange.
I will take Jesus!
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lyn said “Somebody show me, from Scripture, where ANYBODY is supposed to stand on a step ladder with a bull horn and screech at people who are minding their own business.”
To me, that’s the real issue. Jesus did his teaching to crowds while he was seated–in a boat, on the mountain, at dinners, etc.. But most of his interactions were one on one. This whole notion of standing on a box, condemning people for their sins as they walk by, is, in my humble opinion, the worst possible way to try to engage anyone. It’s not just preaching, either. I believe the UK has a policy which allows anyone to stand on a box and just yell at people. Stupidity. I’d keep right on walking. The whole gender thing just makes it all worse.
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http://church-discipline.blogspot.com/2009/03/10-reasons-men-should-not-be-pastors.html
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Miano insists men have authority over women, and women should not talk to men in certain scenarios. He has NO problem sending his wife out into the work force while he does not work with his own hands, as the Bible commands. Once again, he’s taken to begging for a significant amount of money and states it’s for ‘living expenses’. One month, it’s for ‘payroll’, another month’ it’s for ‘living expenses’. He isn’t very good at disguising being a deadbeat and a mooch. The Bible does NOT support giving to someone who refuses to work! Not to mention his false teachings…
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I strongly urge Tony Miano to get out and get a job. He is without excuse when it comes to the command to support his family. It is shameful that his wife works while he busies himself with worthless activities all day. Self promotion is NOT work Tony, it’s sin. It stems from pride and arrogance.
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Let me add this – 2Thessalonians 3:10 “For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat”. As many commentators have so wisely put it ” but those that can work, and will not, ought to starve; They should not be supported by the church. No one can be justified in assisting a lazy man. In no possible circumstances are we to contribute to foster indolence. Men ought some way or other to earn their own living, otherwise they do not eat their own bread.”
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Well and especially since he gives evidence online of what his “ministry work” looks like as he calls people unregenerate and banters rudely with people.
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Mr. I-interpret-the-Bible-my-own-way-and-I-am-always-right Miano has no authority over me! He certainly gives evidence of wrong attitudes, sinful motives and how has he twisted the Scriptures? Let me count the ways. (Ok, well, maybe not today, since I don’t have time to write a thesis….) I would like to take this opportunity to call into question the genuine salvation of Tony Miano. He has made a mockery of Christ with his despicably unloving spirit toward other Christians. By his fruit he is known. How sad. We ought to pray that the Holy Spirit convicts him of his ungodly lifestyle and shows him the truth of God’s Word and the wretchedness of his own sin. We ought also to pray for those nearest to him. (Can you imagine being married to such a man? That’s what my husband asked me….)
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Carmen S.,
Lol! I love that link. Thanks for that, and also for bringing attention to that blog. I just quickly checked out a few other articles, but they look really good so far.
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Joyelle: Did your husband give you permission to post that comment?
:::::snicker::::::
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JA, Ahhahahahaaa! My husband is my biggest fan. I support him and he supports me and we have a healthy love, respect and mutual understanding of what God wants for us in our marriage. He isn’t threatened by me spiritually or otherwise. We discuss this stuff often lately; after all, he was raised mennonite and I was raised by patriarchal teachings. Loaded questions and loaded answers. My husband’s response to people like Tony Miano? “Ridiculous! The Christian life isn’t that complicated.”
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But what I really want to know is: “WHAT ABOUT JONI?!!” (Not shouting, just thinking loudly.) JONI E Tada is one of the most widely known women who hardly fits the role that these chest thumping Submit To Me Cuz I Am a Man guys espouse for women. I knew her personally many years ago and she is an inspiration to so many men and women. Has anyone called her out on her ‘insubordination’? Has anyone said she was wrong for speaking at the Strange Fire conference and all the other conferences she has spoken at?
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Joyelle
Bringing up Joni is an excellent point – Miano claims “The mere reading of scripture is to exercise authority because scripture is the authority.” Where he ever got this idea is certainly foreign to me. Anyway, he breaks his own rule by sitting in the audience and listening to Joni read God’s word.
This link – https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/10/19/question-for-tony-miano-did-joni-preach/ shows Joni reading Scripture and expounding on it, in front of professing male believers. Does Joni get a free pass? She does when man-made rules are bent or changed for certain ones. This is how Pharisees operate.
I have to agree with Joyelle’s comment – ” I would like to take this opportunity to call into question the genuine salvation of Tony Miano. He has made a mockery of Christ with his despicably unloving spirit toward other Christians. By his fruit he is known. How sad. We ought to pray that the Holy Spirit convicts him of his ungodly lifestyle and shows him the truth of God’s Word and the wretchedness of his own sin. We ought also to pray for those nearest to him.” Delusion blinds, it is deadly. May God have mercy on Miano, may he be brought under conviction for his twisting of God’s word, his arrogance, his constant promotion of self, his refusal to obey the biblical command to work and provide for his family, and his hatred of women and homosexuals.
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Joyelle: Tony speaks out of both sides of his mouth. After I wrote my post (https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/10/19/question-for-tony-miano-did-joni-preach/) and others questioned him on Facebook about listening to Joni Eareckson speak at the Strange Fire conference, he wrote this blog post: http://www.crossencounters.us/2013/10/joni-eareckson-tada-and-joyce-meyer.html
Now, what he says in his blog post is not the same as what we read in the above quoted excerpts.
Check this out. In the transcript on this article we read:
Ok, here is the video of Joni from Strange Fire conference. Around the 20-min. mark, she does in fact read scripture. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s-Z2K0fsKOg
And then when we read this from Tony’s blog:
Wait just one second – – – she quoted the Word of God which Miano says is always authoritative. She read it out loud to men which according to Miano means that she read the Word of God authoritatively and exercised her authority over those in the audience as she heralded God’s word.
You see what I mean? Look at how he blasts Joyce Meyer (nice behavior, there, ™):
Now, granted, I think Joyce Meyer and Joni Eareckson Tada are quite different, but if he’s going to say that the word of God is authoritative and that when a woman reads the word of God to men, they are losing their Biblical femininity and speaking with authority over men, then he needs to be consistent with ALL women and not give Joni Eareckson Tada a free pass. But you see, Joni was on John MacArthur’s turf. At the time, Miano was not going to Grace Community Church, but he presently is, so you better believe he will not do any dissing on Joni. Joni and JMac are good friends and Miano is not going to rock that boat if he wants to remain there with Grace Community’s blessings.
But ™’s going to have to figure out a way to clean up this mess he keeps making by making up his own rules as he goes.
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Yawn. (Whatever.)
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I think this hypocrisy/inconsistency/illogical ranting proves that Miano doesn’t know what he talking about. He is a confused, arrogant soul.
Joni E Tada and Joyce Meyer are totally different women, with completely different doctrines. But maybe Miano was noting the differences, and disliking Meyer’s stage persona, he began rationalizing Joni’s speaking because……she was sitting down? **chuckle**
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Anyone who really knows Joni Eareckson Tada personally knows she’s tougher than just about any man you’ve ever met. She’s one strong woman. Don’t let that wheelchair fool you. Joyce Meyers got nothing on Joni!
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Where does the Bible tell men to teach and have authority over women. Where does the Bible tell husbands to lead their wives. There are direct instructions galore throughout the Bible, what, was God too scared of confrontation to directly instruct men to do those things? Was he afraid that women would come unglued about it? Well, actually I always did come unglued about it since I was a child because until I learned to read the scriptures for myself I had no alternative to believing yahoos like Miano. Who actually have the gall to say that the Bible says so when it doesn’t.
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Thank you Lydia for bringing up Huldah. She is my favorite woman in the Bible. I did some research on her a few years back. All my notes a packed away so I can’t quote from them but here is a link to a Jewish site with some background on Huldah.
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/112503/jewish/Huldah-the-Prophetess.htm Note she was a prominant teacher. I understand that the New Quarter in Jerusalem was something like a university district. All the prominant teachers or rabbis taught there. Supposedly the Gates of Huldah in Jerusalem were named after her because that is where she met her students. The gates are now walled off but are still there. If I remember correctly the most prominant spot was between these two gates. Huldah was so prominant and well remembered that the gates were later named for her.
As an aside I disagree with Chabad about Huldah’s husband. I believe he was a Levite and the wardrobe he was in charge of was the High Priest’s garments. The scripture is not clear and most people just assume that it was the royal wardrobe. If her husband was a Levite then Huldah would have also been descended from the Levitical line. Perhaps this explains why she was a teacher of the scriptures and if she really were the best of the best why they consulted with her and not other prophets such as Jeremiah who were around at that time. We really don’t know what temple related functions the women Levites performed but teaching may have been one of them.
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I went back and did a more thorough reading of Chabad’s comments on Huldah. I should have looked a little further instead of being in a hurry. They depend far too much on less useful writings from the second temple period and not as much on scripture or even the Talmud, which is a commentary. I think that Torah.org gives the basic information and less speculation. But reading both could be useful.
http://www.torah.org/learning/women/class51.html
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Yesterday I tweeted with a guy who agrees much with Miano except for women evangelizing. However, when I asked about women reading scripture out loud in front of men, he said that the Bible commands that only men read scripture in corporate worship. I asked for biblical references and he gave me: 1 Tim: 4:13 cf. 1 Tim 2:8.
I don’t see where scripture prohibits women from reading in these verses.
The big issue Miano has is that he says scripture is authoritative so it has to be given by men who are leaders. The way I see it is the Holy Spirit is authoritative and works through His word. God uses His people/His vessels to accomplish His work. So it shouldn’t matter what gender the words came from because essentially they are His words, not the person’s who is reading them.
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I was going to take issue with Miano’s “pride of lions” analogy, on the basis on his own family life, but others here have beaten me to it. And skewered him quite skillfully, I must say. 🙂
This line also had me grinding my teeth:
“Effeminate”. “Weak”. It’s ridiculous, of course, to equate “feminine” with “weakness” — not least of all because women are the ones who endure both pregnancy AND labour.
Quite apart from that, though, this line from Miano carries the assumption that there are some qualities or personality traits that are inherently masculine, and inherently feminine. I find that simplistic in the extreme. Jesus wept; would Tony call that “weak”? Jesus longed to gather the children of Jerusalem under His wings like a mother hen. Did that make Him “effeminate”?
Mind you, I don’t know exactly what Miano means by “effeminate” here, but I doubt his explanation would impress me anyway. Calling any human traits or qualities effeminate is an insult to the vast variety that God Himself has created in us.
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Great comment, Serving!
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There is nothing in the creation account to suggest that women were formed a weaker human than the human that she was formed from. The creation account has God prophesying that the fallen male will rule over the fallen female. The fallen male will want to be in charge just like the fallen Lucifer is still trying to be in charge. Why couldn’t it have just been natural selection that the female eventually became the physically weaker gender due to the fallen males’ violence against her and killing off the strong ones so they can always keep beating their chests like these Miano ape like dudes, me big strong masculine macho man, you weakly feminine creature.. argh. I’m sorry, but it’s impossible for me to respect that. The more they beat their chests the more I pity them, not respect them.
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Serving Kids said “Calling any human traits or qualities effeminate is an insult to the vast variety that God Himself has created in us.”
You admitted you didn’t know exactly what Miano meant by the term effeminate so why are you calling it an insult? Effeminate is actually a word found in the Bible. In English it mean “unmanly” or having characteristics of a women and it usually is an insult when referring to a man. It would be the same as a man calling a women “manly” which to many women would find insulting. Women are women and men and men and not sure what the big deal is about this. Now of course we can get into a discussion of what makes a man or a woman and this is where the controversy will brew but just on a biological level men and women are different and I think that is fairly obvious. Men and women dress different. Men and women use different bathrooms, etc, etc, etc.. Of course men cry. Jesus wept. That is not solely a female characteristic.
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Dear Andrew,
Uhm… You just admitted that words like “effeminate”, “womanly” and “manly” are insulting. So why did you ask me why I find them insulting?
But, since you took the time to ask: When the word “effeminate” is used to describe a man or a boy, it means that his behaviour or personality is somehow different from many other males. Using the word different would probably suffice, but to use a loaded term like effeminate is degrading to that man or boy — just because he’s different is no reason to cast doubt on his maleness. I think it’s also insulting to women, because it implies that certain (undesirable) characteristics belong only to women. In his own words, Miano linked the ideas of “effeminate” and “weak”. Why would he do that, unless he thought that women are weak? That’s demeaning to them.
Very true (although even on the biological level, there are some people who don’t fall squarely into either category). But even given our physical differences, it doesn’t logically follow to say that women and men must necessarily think or act in strictly different ways. Human beings are much more complex than that. God has made us more complex than that. I would much rather do away with constricting labels like “manly” or “womanly” altogether — they do injustice to the wondrous variety of the human experience.
By the way, where exactly do you find the term “effeminate” in the Bible?
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Uhm… You just admitted that words like “effeminate”, “womanly” and “manly” are insulting. So why did you ask me why I find them insulting?
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I might have misunderstood you. I thought what you found insulting was the fact that Miano used the word. And not that the word itself was descriptive. For instance, I could call some greedy and selfish, etc.. and use these terms very legitimately and truthfully and the act of using the words is not insulting but the words themselves may describe an unpleasant thing. I can call someone a sinner and speak the truth yet I am not trying to insult them on purpose but it may be insulting to someone nevertheless.
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By the way, where exactly do you find the term “effeminate” in the Bible?
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I am not Greek expert but I believe what has been translated “effeminate” in 1 Corinthians 6:9 in the NASB version and KJV is the Greek word μαλακός, malakós;
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Miano linked the ideas of “effeminate” and “weak”. Why would he do that, unless he thought that women are weak? That’s demeaning to them.
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Well I already went over the “effeminate”, now the question is “weak”. The Bible speaks of this in 1 Peter 3:7. I’ll let you read it on your own but every single translation I have checked referred to the wife or woman as the weaker partner, or weaker sex or weaker spouse, etc, etc. etc. I don’t believe the Apostle Paul is deeming women here. This is definitely not about the value of a women but speaks of something else and is consistently translated as “weaker”. Maybe this is what Miano is speaking of.
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Andrew,
Yes, I do object to Miano calling men “effeminate”. He has no right to cast aspersions on anyone’s sexuality or gender identity, or to say that they’re somehow “less male” simply because they don’t act a certain way. He doesn’t get to decide which human behaviours or traits are masculine or feminine. Neither do you, and neither do I.
As for 1 Corinthians 6:9: According to Bible Gateway, the word malakos is one of “two Greek words that refer to the passive and active participants in homosexual acts” (NIV footnote). I’m not sure how that translates to “effeminate”, but quite apart from that…
If Miano is using the word “effeminate” in this ‘biblical’ sense, that means he’s accusing egalitarian men of taking part in gay sex acts — what’s his basis for that? If he’s not, then he’s saying that they’re “less male” simply because they’re egalitarian. Either meaning is deeply offensive to me.
I can believe that Peter didn’t mean to insult women in his letter. But I’m not willing to give Tony Miano the benefit of the doubt. His public rudeness to Julie Anne, on Twitter and elsewhere, rules that out for me. If he accuses egalitarian men of being weak, I’m pretty sure he means it to be insulting. He’s certainly shown no respect to JA as the “weaker sex”.
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Dear Serving Kids,
You wrote:
“If he accuses egalitarian men of being weak, I’m pretty sure he means it to be insulting. He’s certainly shown no respect to JA as the “weaker sex”.”
First I am not defending Miano in his behavior to JA. I would never act that way and I think he is wrong.
Back to the original quote that got you so upset:
“I think men in American evangelicalism are weak. I think they’re effeminate.”
I am not sure what Miano means. I would have to ask him. Clearly this is his opinion though. I can only guess that he thinks men in America evangelicalism are not as brave, courageous, strong and disciplined as they should be. Maybe he is thinking men are too vulnerable and as such are not good protectors of their wife and family. I would probably never use this language but possibly he is just trying to encourage men to be strong and courageous and good protectors.
For me as a man, I have had to bury my emotions and feelings at times when my wife was going through a very difficult time. I am a very vulnerable and sensitive person and this was the hardest thing for me to do. But I had to do this otherwise I would have been a basket case and of no source of strength to her.
I know you are not willing to give Miano the benefit of the doubt and that is fine. I am not trying to defend him either. But I will defend complentarianism as defined in the Bible.
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Heartily agree with Tony even though I am a woman… Think feminism and the spirit if Jezebel. These are the demonic spirits or forces driving women to desire the positions and responsibilities they can not have (lost them in the garden!). Yes, a woman was the one in transgression! So now… We have to be in submission…. The Word of a God says and requires so. Not I. Sorry…
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I thought it was only my keys I lost somewhere in the garden but now The Word Of God says I also lost my positions and responsibilities there?!
Well, hand me those bonbons, baby. I gotta lotta free time comin’.
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Sounds equal to me. Unfortunately, when you give people positions of “authority” they tend to abuse them.
I have many things I do: mother, wife, Sunday School teacher, soccer coach, assistant web editor, HOA Welcome Committee. None of them define me. I am a (to quote a popular CCM song) “Child of the one true King.” And I work (do many things) at His pleasure. To define what I can and cannot do based on my *gender* is wrong. Based on my *ability* is fine – I would not make a good fire-woman or policewoman – I don’t have enough upper body strength, and don’t aspire to that work. But I can write programming code just as good as the next man. And I can study and read and understand the scriptures just as good as the next man. In fact, many of the men in our small group are dyslexic and don’t like to read aloud in our small group, so us ladies tend to do the reading. The men in our group don’t think we’re “taking authority upon ourselves” when we do so.
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And that’s the idea that I find offensive. Vulnerability is not weakness. It does not make a man weak to have feelings, or to understand them, or to be honest about them. In fact, I think that the more that anyone denies his own feelings, the less he can understand or empathize with the feelings of others. It is not wrong for a man to admit when he’s scared or needs help, and it doesn’t make him any less of a man or a husband.
I have no idea what you and your wife have been through, Andrew, and I hope that you’ve both come through it OK. But if you really had to “bury your feelings” in order to be strong for her, I hope you had the chance to share those feeling with her later. It’s a good thing that you’re sensitive, Andrew. No man has the right to tell you otherwise — not Al Mohler, not Owen Strachan, and certainly not Tony Miano.
I’m sensitive, too. I have feelings, and I show them. If I ever get married, I hope my wife is someone with whom I can share my emotions and fears safely. It’s hard enough for me to clamp down on my feelings at work. To be forced to do that with the person closest to my heart? That would make me a basket case.
And by the way, complementarianism is NOT defined in the Bible. It offers no clear commands for any such arrangement in church or in marriage. Even complementarians can’t agree on what it means, so it can’t be clearly commanded in the Bible. If husband-as-head works in your marriage, well and good. But please don’t try to convince me that God commands all couples to live that way. I refuse to accept that.
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Serving: I may have just heard a collective sigh from single women in US wondering what in the world you are doing in Japan. LOL Your comment was beautiful. Thank you!
I have never met a woman who did not appreciate a man who was honest with his feelings, and that includes vulnerability. Many men (and women) have difficulty tapping into those kinds of emotions, maybe because they were taught that it’s bad to have “negative” emotions. I don’t know why some people label emotions as negative or positive – – they just are – – Jesus had them – – he even wept. If we cannot appreciate His manhood, whoa, we’ve got some problems.
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Ha! Maybe now’s a good time to ask…
I agree with Julie Anne, Serving. But your beautiful comments aside, for months now I have been wondering just what it is that you do to serve kids in Japan? In other words, are you a missionary? I tried to become a missionary in Tokyo a few years ago, and seeing your name always reminds me that I left my heart there with the Japanese and hope to go back to them someday.
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“Well I already went over the “effeminate”, now the question is “weak”. The Bible speaks of this in 1 Peter 3:7. I’ll let you read it on your own but every single translation I have checked referred to the wife or woman as the weaker partner, or weaker sex or weaker spouse, etc, etc. etc.”
Unless you were one of the wealthy Greek/Roman women of the Patrrician class you were automatically a “weaker vessel” because you had to depend on men for your welfare.
One of the problems is we read the NT without even thinking of the OT. Was Jael “weak”? Deborah? Abigail? The weaker vessel was more cultural/socioeconomic than anything to do with intelligence, resourcefulness, etc. In the 1st Century a woman could not go to the local community college to become independent. Nor could she run down to the Ephesus Absue Center if her husband was abusive. She was in an arranged marriage, considered chattel and stuck.
In the 21st Century intelligence is more valuable than brawn. Nevermind that there are quite a few women who would have to carry guys like Russ Moore and John Piper out of a burning building because those guys are not “manly” enough to carry out the average woman.
We need to check our definitions and never forget cultural context.
I view Miano as very weak. Men who constantly make a big deal about manliness and accuse others of being effiminete are telling us something. It is like the person who has to constantly remind others s/he is a leader. If one is a leader, one does not ahve to constnatly announce it.
And to sum it up. Was Jesus “manly”? If you answer yes, what “characteristics” of his humanness would be viewed as “manly”? That would make an interesting discussion.
Wouldn’t being like Jesus be Miano’s goal if he is a true believer? Miano is appealing to a more sinful paradigm trying to make it spiritual. He is appealing to the “Me Tarzan, You Jane” paradigm. It makes him feel manly….as Tarzan Tony sends his wife out to support him.
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I have no idea what you and your wife have been through, Andrew, and I hope that you’ve both come through it OK. But if you really had to “bury your feelings” in order to be strong for her, I hope you had the chance to share those feeling with her later. It’s a good thing that you’re sensitive,
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We went through 4 miscarriages in a row. I was devastated. I had a lot of feelings, sorrow and I was very vulnerable. None of this is bad; however considering my wife needed me to be strong for her and was probably going through worse than me, I had to be strong and courageous to hold the family together. Sorry you are offended that I had to do this. But I had to and believe I did the right thing. It offends me that you think I should not be a man for my wife.
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One of the problems is we read the NT without even thinking of the OT. Was Jael “weak”? Deborah? Abigail? The weaker vessel was more cultural/socioeconomic than anything to do with intelligence, resourcefulness, etc
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We can agree to disagree. However I think the apostle Paul makes it abundantly clearly the weaker vessel paradigm is part of the creation account and not a cultural thing. I believe the “weaker” idea speaks to vulnerability and especially vulnerable to abuse. Unfortunately this vulnerability is very easy for men to take advantage of which is made clear by this blog. This is why I can not support Tony’s behavior but I will defend what the Bible says.
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‘We can agree to disagree. However I think the apostle Paul makes it abundantly clearly the weaker vessel paradigm is part of the creation account and not a cultural thing. I believe the “weaker” idea speaks to vulnerability and especially vulnerable to abuse. Unfortunately this vulnerability is very easy for men to take advantage of which is made clear by this blog. This is why I can not support Tony’s behavior but I will defend what the Bible says.”
But that is NOT at all what the bible says. That is an interpretation of some faulty translations.
The idea of “weaker vessel” is a result of the fall. And it was Eve’s choice to “turn” to Adam instead of God so that Adam ruled over her. The word “teshuqa” in Gen 3 was translated as some variation of “turning” until a Monk named Pagnino changed it to desire around the 1300s in a translation.
You can check out this translation chart and do your own fact checking on it as I did:
Click to access teshuqa_chart.pdf
Patriarchy is a sin. It is a result of the fall. To teach it as virtue is to teach sin is virtue. It is very hard to change ingrained teachings. It takes a lot of study, prayer and even a bit of common sense.
If we do not get Genesis right, we cannot get any of it right. You should do an indepth study on the use of Ezer, also. Carolyn Custis James has done just that and is an excellent place to start.
Never replace spirituality with biology. It is a road to hell as proved historically with the promotion of slavery in the Name of Christ.
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Andrew, Also if you do not believe there is a cultural context to “weaker vessel” then I fully expect you to always greet your brothers with a Holy Kiss. :o)
Would you call a police woman with a gun a “weaker vessel”?
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The idea of “weaker vessel” is a result of the fall. And it was Eve’s choice to “turn” to Adam instead of God so that Adam ruled over her. The word “teshuqa” in Gen 3 was translated as some variation of “turning” until a Monk named Pagnino changed it to desire around the 1300s in a translation.
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Both Jesus and the apostle Paul quote from Genesis chapter 2 not 3 in speaking of marriage. This does not support your idea.
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Andrew, I am so sorry for your losses. Grieving the loss of a child is one of the hardest things to go through. You did what you thought best for your wife and your marriage.
I will say I too have suffered the loss of a child – she died shortly after she was born. My husband and I grieved together and healed together. I didn’t expect him to “be strong” for me. His heart was broken as much as mine. Please, talk to your wife about this. Share with her your heart. I know this brought my husband and I even closer together in love and mutual respect. (In fact, we still both cry when we go to her grave and it has been 15 years and 3 children later!) Bearing one another’s burdens is what God calls us to do for one another in love. Your wife is stronger than you can imagine.
I still tear up over her death and my mother’s, but that doesn’t make me weak. It just means I feel those emotions strongly. And I blow my nose and shake it off and thank God for every moment I had with both of them and then go on to the next thing.
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LOL! (*blush*)
Thanks, Julie Anne. Andrew didn’t seem to appreciate my comment, though. I’ll try to clear that up with him in a minute.
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“Both Jesus and the apostle Paul quote from Genesis chapter 2 not 3 in speaking of marriage. This does not support your idea.”
Get specific and lets discuss context. Eat your Wheaties.
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“However I think the apostle Paul makes it abundantly clearly the weaker vessel paradigm is part of the creation account and not a cultural thing. I believe the “weaker” idea speaks to vulnerability and especially vulnerable to abuse. Unfortunately this vulnerability is very easy for men to take advantage of which is made clear by this blog.”
Andrew,
I spent a few hours yesterday with my narcissistic mother. Trust me, there is nothing “weaker” about her “vessel.” She has had every man, woman, and child walking on eggshells around her for years lest they trigger her narcissistic rage. She’s even ugly to her own grandchildren!
We are all such uniquely created human beings. While we do have certain physical characteristics that separate the genders, we are more than just our body parts. There’s nothing wrong with a man who is stronger and more protective. I appreciate them. But not every man was designed to be a “Thor.” Not every woman is a damsel in distress. This is all part of what makes relationships so sticky sometimes.
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Dear Oasis,
Thank you for asking. I’d like to try some kind of dedicated outreach or mission activities here, sometime after I get my permanent residency. I’m looking to apply for that this year.
In the meantime, I’m working as an Assistant Language Teacher, helping out in public schools, teaching English to primary and junior high school kids. The school year just ended this past week, and I’m figuring out how best to spend the two-week spring break.
I know what you mean about having your heart in Japan. Many people I’ve met here have been so good to me — it’s mostly because of them that I want to stay for good, and share the love of Jesus with those who don’t know Him yet.
I hope I see you here sometime!
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Beentheredonethat,
GREAT comment! In fact, one of the things that really bothered me over the years when I was promoting comp conferences and speakers in the mega world is that so
many women hid behind the doctrine in so many ways. It actually teaches women to be manipulative. How many times did I hear women taught that they should “make him think it was his idea”. As if he is some little boy who has to be manipulated to do the right things. Or, he is the “head” but she is the “neck” that turns the head. Sheesh! talk about playing “roles” which are fake.
I should write a book about what I witnessed over the years. . I think the biggest problem is men who define themselves by that doctrine as “biblical” are not sure how they would fit into the world without it. That is the real shame.
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If a book sounds too daunting for you, Lydia, how about guest post? spiritualsb@gmail.com
🙂
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Dear Andrew,
Thank you for sharing about your family’s struggles. I understand it was very personal, and you really didn’t have to. I’m grateful for your honesty.
All that loss must have been heart-rending for you and your wife. I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I was lecturing you. I have no idea what it feels like to endure that much loss, and I have no idea how to counsel anyone about it. (WouldRatherNotSay did a better job sharing than I ever could by lecturing — thank you WRNS.)
I’m not offended by how you dealt with your tragedy, Andrew. You got through it the best you could — that’s all any of us can do. My indignation is with men like Mohler and Miano, who seem to think that there’s only One Right Way for men to behave. I take offense at that.
I never meant to say that, Andrew. Please believe me. I’m sorry if I came across that way.
I’m not saying you shouldn’t “be a man” for your wife. I’m saying that you don’t have to try to be a man. You are a man, Andrew, and you seem to be a very loving one. You and I are men, so “manhood” isn’t something for us to attain. We have that already. We don’t become “more manly” by denying our feelings, or “less manly” by admitting them.
Our quest as Christians is to become more and more like Christ. As far as I can see, that means pretty much the same thing for both men and women — to become more loving, more compassionate, more patient, courageous, hopeful and faithful. Not more “manly” or more “womanly”.
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Interesting comments about men being strong for their wives. I had a thought about this. If our family had a tragic event happen and my husband did not share emotionally in that grief, in a way, it would make it very difficult for me to connect with him. In fact, it might put a wedge between us because I wouldn’t feel safe to cry or express the loss I was feeling.
I think our society puts pressure on men that they have to be strong for their wives and I’m not sure that’s what all wives want. I’d be interested in hearing what other wives think on this topic.
I get the protection thing, too, though because I love the feeling of being protected. There must be a happy medium in this.
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JA, I might just take you up on it, sometime. My problem is that I have a different view than many people on discernment blogs and they think I am mean. Well, I am mean when it comes to this BS trash stuff out there posing as Jesus approved.
Just to try and explain, I have come to the place where I despise all tyranny no matter where it comes from. I just don’t have the fluffy nice demeanor it takes and that is because of what I saw upclose and personal. Bullies need to be stood up to….not understood. And that is where most Christians miss it. They apply cheap grace to bullies making bank off Jesus thinking that makes them pious. And the bullies come in all varying degrees of pimping false teaching and bad boy behavior.
This is what bothers me the most:. Driscoll and guys like him are so obvious yet people will argue their doctrine for them saying they just don’t like the way they behave sometimes but he “is a brother”. No he isn’t. Brothers don’t teach what he teaches and don’t behave the way he behaves. There is a consistent pattern many ignore. He MIGHT be a brother one day, who knows. But his consistent fruit is rotten. And if anyone was truly saved at Mars Hill they would have to move on from there at some point to even be able to look in the mirror every morning. (I know the feeling!) I use Driscoll as an obvious example but to varying degrees most of celebrity Christendom is like him only more opaque. People have no clue how much “image management” and “branding” play a part in all this.
But the stuff I saw was NEVER obvious to the pew sitter. The celeb guys I knew were a million times more clever than Driscoll and much more dangerous. They were very covert and nothing led back to them. They wore Teflon suits and polo shirts. Maintaining the image they had built was everything.
But if Driscoll is still at MH as a “pastor” after all his scandalabras what hope does the “church” have— as we know it now? I mean, how much worse does it have to get? How much poison are we going to ingest before more say, enough? Why does MH still exist as a “church”? That is the question we must ask ourselves.
There is moral chaos out there in what is Christianity. I bear some guilt for that for my part in it. That is why when some guys who were Driscoll sycophants say they want mediation/reconciliation or whatever, I have to laugh. They still believe the hogwash! Why don’t they band together to tell Driscoll followers the truth? Because they still believe what they believed before they were booted. That is why. I saw it all the time with those booted. They thought they could “save the leader”. You saw this thinking with SGM former pastors. Oh if only he would repent! I had to laugh. You see, long before social media there was a booted high level sycophant I knew trying to get a mega church leader on the phone to “practice Matt 18” as was taught there. And he was one of his close associates.
People have no clue what they are dealing with. If they did, they would beg those STILL supporting such charlatans to wake up and run. They would not try and rehab a celebrity Christian for crying out loud. If the Holy Spirit has not convicted them all this time, what do they expect to happen? They will listen to you?
The only way to deal with all of this is to help folks become independent thinkers who are responsible for what they believe, why they believe it and for what they do as believers living out the kingdom now. That means questioning everything you are taught and digging deep. This means refusing to be a passive believer in the Body. But eat your Wheaties because they will come after you and all those people you thought you thought were BFF’s in the Body— won’t see a thing and will, instead, beg for cheap grace for their favorite guru..
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“I’m saying that you don’t have to try to be a man. You are a man, Andrew, and you seem to be a very loving one. You and I are men, so “manhood” isn’t something for us to attain. We have that already. We don’t become “more manly” by denying our feelings, or “less manly” by admitting them.”
Brill! This bears repeating. And this:
“Our quest as Christians is to become more and more like Christ. As far as I can see, that means pretty much the same thing for both men and women — to become more loving, more compassionate, more patient, courageous, hopeful and faithful. Not more “manly” or more “womanly”.”
So the question I put to comps/pats is how can a woman become Christlike if her Savior was male and gender roles are all important?
Perhaps they miss the whole point?
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Hey Brother Andrew:
My wife and I had 6 miscarriages in the midst of having two awesome living children. One child’s miscarriage was as far along as 5 months. The only thing that brought us comfort was knowing, as David did, that we would see those 6 kids in heaven one day. I have two older stepchildren who I had to comfort during these miscarriages. I cried a bit in telling them, but had to be a rock so that they could feel safe enough to know they could fully explore their grief with an adult who was focused on their pain, not mine at the time. I understand completely how and why you felt a need to be strong for your grieving wife and applaud you for that.
Women and men were created by God. God tells us in the Bible the distinct roles for each in the context of marriage. I would give anything to not have to be the head of a family and the only thing that comforts me as the head of a family is knowing that Christ is the head of my life who goes out to fight battles for me and who has felt every emotion and temptation I have, yet never sinned.
Here’s my real life example of why God has different roles for each in a marriage. My wife was physically and emotionally abused by her ex-husband. My stepchildren were sexually abused by their father. After getting married, the sexual abuse allegations came out. I fought this POS for a decade through the sham that is called family court against a well funded and determined representative of Satan before, after earnestly resisting the devil, he fled from us as is promised in God’s word.
The children have been protected from him since I found out about the abuse. Not because we had good lawyers or good guardian ad litems or good judges or good therapists, but because as the head of my family I promised my wife and stepkids that they would never be harmed by this person ever again and God unleashed His power to enable me to overcome what were insurmountablel odds in keeping the kids safe.
During the course of this I have taught my wife how to fight. How to turn fear into righteous anger, not despair. I have taught my stepkids how to stand up for themselves and not allow others to hurt them. I could teach them to fight because I learned that through the life lessons that are common to men – sports, dangerous jobs, etc. and the stories of God ordained warriors in the Bible
For those who wish to be equal with a husband as the head of a family consider the terrifying reality that the head of a family has to face and WIN against evil. Their plan of battle can and should be guided by a multitude of counselors including their wife, but ultimately, the head of that household at times has to make decisions that may be unpopular. If one comes to a fork in the road and your wife says go left, but the husband truly feels safety is found in going right, he has to live with his decision. I told my wife this over and over again during this ordeal.
In a vaccum it is quite easy to speak about the equal roles of men and women. All of the “men” in my wife’s family – two brothers and father (not Christians) never took it upon themselves to fight this fight instead leaving it up to the courts and “hoping everything would work out”. I didn’t have that delusional luxury because I am commanded to love my wife as Christ loved the church and died for it. But I obviously didn’t die. Our horrific experience paid off with tremendous spiritual growth and joyfullness in how God won the battle and a family so full of love for the Lord and each other that I marvel at them each time we sit down together. My wife is forever grateful for me owning the responsibility to lead the fight as I am forever grateful that God gave me such a Proverbs 31 wife, perfect in every way.
Your wife will be forever grateful, Andrew, that she had you to lean on during her tragic losses and you should be forever proud that you were there for her.
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Christian father,
Just a quick couple of things…is gender defined by emotions? Am I a woman because I may get more emotional than a man?
You also claim your wife is perfect in every way; my goodness, I thought only Christ was perfect. Surely you see the error in heralding any human as perfect.
Lastly, you say to Andrew, ‘…that she had you to lean on during her tragic losses’… so he didn’t share in those losses? Only his wife was affected by them? Playing down emotions and suppressing them certainly does not make you a stronger man; it creates a robot-type who feels nothing. What woman wants a husband that throws up some stone fortress when tragedy strikes?
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Lastly, you say to Andrew, ‘…that she had you to lean on during her tragic losses’… so he didn’t share in those losses? Only his wife was affected by them? Playing down emotions and suppressing them certainly does not make you a stronger man; it creates a robot-type who feels nothing.
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Feels nothing? I I told you this was the hardest thing I have ever done… I am an extremely emotional person and when someone cries be it my wife or someone else I cry with them. I can’t help it but in this situation I had to trust God that He gave me the ability as head of the marriage to be her strength.
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