Doug Phillips & Vision Forum, Family Integrated Churches, Homeschool Movement, Scott Brown, Vision Forum

How Influential Was Doug Phillips and His Teachings?

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Taking a look at Doug Phillips’ strong influence in the Homeschool Movement and Family-Integrated Church movement

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For people outside of the Homeschool Movement or Christian Patriarchy, they may wonder how Doug Phillips could be so influential.  It’s not just about Phillips, the head of an organization/business/pastor, it’s about Phillips who pushed an agenda onto the Christian homeschooling community in a very powerful and compelling way.

As I was researching the history of family-integrated churches and National Center for Family-Integrated Churches (NFCIC), the organization founded by Doug Phillips, now run by Scott Brown, I stumbled across an article which is no longer online, but can be accessed through the Wayback Machine.  While reading the comments, one particular commenter brought me instantly back to what it felt like listening to speakers like Phillips at homeschool conventions.

I wanted you to get an idea of the intensity of this guy.   This kind of tone and demeanor was prevalent in the Homeschool Movement at every homeschool convention I ever attended (in four different states).  In the excerpts, the commenter, Ryan Glick, is defending homeschooling and family-integrated churches.  He refers to Doug Phillips’ teachings.  But first, here is some personal background information Glick provided:

To Shawn, and to all those who have commented above, I have been a part of family-integrated churches for the last 10 years at least. I have served in the National Center for Family-Integrated Churches (NCFIC) and have been indirectly involved with Vision Forum Ministries over the last two and a half years. I was also a member of Hope Baptist church for over two years where Scott Brown, the director of the NCFIC, is an elder, and I currently am a member of a very recent church plant of Hope Baptist where Scott is still a standing elder until the plant is complete.

And here’s one more bit of personal background information:

So where was I schooled? At home. I never attended a public school or a Christian school and I praise God and thank my parents that that is the case. I wouldn’t want it any other way. And in case you were wondering, I’ll be home schooling my own children! :).

The following is just one excerpt of many comments.   The comment was long, so I added paragraphs for easier reading and bolded key points.

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Source
photo credit: vincentvds2 via photopin cc
 
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Ryan Glick says:

Robert: In reference to your last comment about Doug Phillips praying for all Christians to be homeschooling and in family-integrated churches, I could not agree with him more. To put this very bluntly lest anyone misunderstand where I as a [sic] individual stand on this issue: sending your child to a public school is wicked and rebellion against the clear commands of God.

Some may be ignorant and not in wanton rebellion, but that does not make them in compliance with the Lord’s commands. Those who utilize public education are sacrificing their children on the altar of a false god, blaspheming the most high God, teaching these children to walk contrary to the true and the living God, and defiling them with the most corrupt moral degradations of society.

God has explicitly commanded fathers to raise up their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, to teach them day in and day out all the commands of God and that the Lord our God is One Lord. He has declared that there is no wisdom or light in any who reject the Word of the Lord: “The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?” He has called every spirit that does not declare Jesus Christ to have come in the flesh the spirit of anti-Christ. He says that all who deny the record that God bear of his Son make God out to be a liar. That is blasphemy against our Lord and King!

God has said that those who pervert morality and follow after strange flesh do so because they have refused to glorify God as God. We make the issue of education out to be a [sic] issue of Christian liberty, but those who send their children to the public Schools must realize that they are giving their children to people who are the children of Satan, to people who teach the doctrines of devils, to people that God has called dogs and whoremongers, to people who will not inherit eternal life. They are sending their children to be trained by the spirit of anti-Christ in to the abominations of the heathen.

Upon what basis shall I as a Christian not plead with God that He would awaken parents from their slumber so that they would immediately pull their children out of these God-hating, devil-worshiping institutions? Does not the love of Christ and the love of our neighbor wrench our heart so that we can do nothing less? And if throwing our children in to age-segmented societies where they are being trained by their foolish peer groups provides the same corrupting influence upon children, should I also not plead with God to plant family-integrated churches that preach the Word in season and out of season, and who worship God (not the family) in spirit and in truth?

I will conclude by answering your final question: Does this reflect the great commission which requires us to go into all the world, making disciples and teaching them to obey all things He has commanded? Absolutely! These are merely the manifestations of the gospel lived out. The gospel presents the love of God and the love of our fellow man. No biblical love for God or man will ever send a child to a public school to be trained by those who hate God.

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So, essentially, those who homeschool and believe the above to be true, believe everyone else is sending their kids to Satan.  It immediately sets apart the us vs them in Christian communities.  The homeschooling, family-integrated folks are doing it the right way, everyone else is not.

Side note:  This homeschool mom is wanting to remind Mr. Glick’s homeschool teacher about proper use of articles, “an” vs “a.”  My evil-government school taught me that.

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177 thoughts on “How Influential Was Doug Phillips and His Teachings?”

  1. Gag. I just want to apologize to all the Christian men and women who teach in our public schools for this man’s vile accusations. This man’s rhetoric is a perfect example of The Homeschool Movement(TM), and does not reflect the viewpoint of all homeschoolers.

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  2. And I would like to apologize to all the hard-working, effective, caring, teachers with good moral values who are not Christian.

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  3. For the last 6 years my high school-age kids have attended the public high school on a very part-time basis. This year, I have two students going full-time. I’ve yet to see any of the nonsense this guy talks about.

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  4. Good piece. Just a quick note: If my memory serves me correctly, it was John Thompson who founded the NCFIC. (I didn’t take the time to verify this with hard facts, but I am pretty sure I remember this to be true. My dad was a follower of Thompson and I remember a lot of discussions about the NCFIC. Phillips was riding Thompson’s coattails for a while.

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  5. I know quite a few devout Christians who are public school teachers. I am new to the world of militant homeschoolers, but I feel pretty safe in calling this man a liar.

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  6. I just have to wonder what world people like this live in. There are public schools that aren’t run well – I took my daughter out of her middle school and put her in Christian school for the duration – but I never met one God hating devil worshiping teacher or administrator. There were some poor teachers in public school but that was also true in Christian school. If I had taught her at home, there would be subjects I would have been good at and others not so much.

    I didn’t like the cliquishness of the public schools but I also noticed that being Christian didn’t stop some of the girls from bullying an overweight girl in my daughter’s class in Christian school. There were some children who got in serious trouble just like in public school.

    Also, the idea that children shouldn’t be age segregated in church is ludicrous. My daughter had wonderful Sunday School teachers in our church and what could be more effective than her hearing the same teachings from other adults that she heard from her father and me? The lessons were all age appropriate so her time was well spent. I doubt she could have comprehended the pastor’s sermons at a young age.

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  7. All six of our kids went to Christian schools. Two graduated from them. We moved when the youngest were 14 and 12, and enrolled them in public schools. They thrived. Our youngest daughter had a Christian English teacher when she was a junior. The teacher let her present the Christian view of abortion. After class 3 students came up to her and said they had never heard abortion presented that way before. After high school our youngest went to a secular college. She was elected chaplain of her sorority. I feel that she was a missionary and that God had a plan for her that did not include either home schooling or Christian schooling.

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  8. The issue of education and training of children are covered in the VF Tenet’s of Biblical Patriarchy, tenets 16-21. It’s clear this man has been versed in these tenets. I can’t find a link to these tenets anymore, I just have a hard copy. The scriptures they use to validate their teachings are questionable to say the least.
    I’d love to hear the readers feedback on these and how misused scriptures. Can someone find those tenets and post them? I know 16 -21 deal with education.

    Also, these questions may be off topic, but since VF is defunct, are people still going to quote/follow these? Do these really prove that biblical patriarchy is a “Gospel centered doctrine” and “Biblical patriarchy is just one theme in the Bible’s grand sweep of revelation, but it is a scriptural doctrine, and faithfulness to Christ requires that it be believed, taught, and lived.”

    I know there are many ready and willing to pick up and carry this movement forward, but just wondered how much influence these tenets have had on the whole movement. Are they going to come up with the “new and improved” tenets?

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  9. P.S. I attended several NCFIC churches as a teen and young adult. Several friends from those days are now attending Scott Brown’s church. One of them is gaining a voice in the NCFIC and would echo much, if not all, of those Ryan Click comments. Makes my heart sad to see how my good friends from the past are so steeped in spiritual pride and deception. This is not Christ, this is not the gospel— it is false teaching! I pray that they will see the truth. Scott Brown is a very prideful man.

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  10. This discussion is very timely. I’ve worked hard this school year to bring my kids’ education UP to par with their public school peers. (I am so proud of the progress they’ve made.) We have found a nearby, small public school that we’ve heard wonderful things about. The thing I find myself constantly gripped with about putting my kids in school is fear. I know it’s completely unfounded, yet it’s there. I’ve been *thoroughly* indoctrinated by the same ideas Ryan Glick is expressing.

    However a parent decides to educate their children should be decided on what’s best for the child. (Barring other time or financial considerations.) Some kids thrive in a homeschool environment, others do better in a public or private school. They aren’t all clones.

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  11. I went to public school through the end of seventh grade, and I then switched to an ACE school where I graduated a year early.

    In third grade, my pastor went in to talk to one of my teachers. The teacher said something about those myths in the Bible, and I stood right up in class and said that she had no right to say that. The Bible was an historical book, etc. I don’t remember how he found out, but my pastor went into my public school and talked to that teacher. I probably marched right up to him, first thing on Sunday morning, to tell him about what happened. Or maybe I chewed his ear off on a Wednesday night.

    I was also well known for my views in community college. Speech class was a blast. We had to do biographical speeches and field questions thereafter, and I was sixteen when I took that class. I had to pick a passage out of a book to talk about what it meant, and I used something from Walden Pond which alluded to three different passages of Scripture. After that speech, the teacher snidely asked me, “Tell us again just why you went to a ‘Christian’ school” in a very intimidating tone. I did just fine in my answer to him.

    In (a Catholic) college, about a year later when I was eighteen, I took an evening class with the East Coast director of the Reformed Jewish denomination. It was my first experience with a liberal Jew, and I’d expected some old Orthodox sage who I expected to look like Olivier in Neil Diamond’s Jazz Singer. Did I give him a run for his money. One day, I went in to talk to another professor (evolutionary atheist) who had an office in that building. He started laughing and laughing. He could barely talk. He says, “What do you do in that class?” Apparently, that Rabbi came up after class every week when this other professor was in the office, and he’d rant to him about this relentless Christian in his class. This other professor (the atheist who taught my anatomy and physiology class) says after a couple weeks, “Is her name Cindy?”

    How is it that the Word of God was effective in my case, but it doesn’t work for anyone else? And my Dad wasn’t even a Believer until I turned 16.

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  12. . .. and this man calls himself a ‘Godly man’ and a Christian – and has people who accept and endorse his opinions?

    I have been a public school teacher for over twenty years (most of my career has been as a substitute, which means I’ve been in MANY schools, elementary and secondary) and I have NEVER heard a public school teacher say a disparaging thing about people who choose to homeschool.

    Just so you know, I cover my horns up before I leave in the morning. . .

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  13. Schooling is a decision that is led by the Spirit within each family. The Bible does not directly speak to “school” but rather the fact we are to train our children in the lord. I homeschool my three children and love it and know that the Lord is telling us that is what is right for our family. However, not everyone can homeschool. The majority of homeschoolers do not buy into this guy’s cr*p.

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  14. I taught at a voc ed school for the last 6 years of my career before retiring about 10 years ago. I was teaching electrical work and had several home schooled kids in my classes. What I can say is there were some that could do the math required and some that could not. Some that could follow directions and some that could not. Some that got to class on time and some that were always late.
    What I am trying to say is that some home school kids were being taught at a very high level and some that, I think ,were being taught on a very low level. The home schooled do not have the best or the worst programs for education.
    I have seen more discipline shown from the kids that came from the public schools than the average home schooled. It is all dependent on the teacher. Some parents as teachers do a great job and some, well less than a public school bad teacher. The question comes up, how do the kids get rid of a bad parent teacher? I know how they get rid of a bad public school teacher. Yes, it may take some doing but it is easy if the principal is competent. Not so easy with a bad parent teacher and there are a bunch of them out there.
    Jim

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  15. Unfortunately, it is hard to measure just how much influence Phillips has had. I understood that he didn’t start the NCFIC on his own. It was actually pioneered by Phillip Lancaster and John Thompson. Lancaster started a list of churches. If you go back into the old archives, Thompson participated with Phillips at first, but I don’t know why he dropped off the map.

    Based on the numbers that I collected for a talk in 2012, I think that current followers of the Gothard/Phillips type stuff cannot be more than 50,000 people, and that is a generous estimate. If I recall, Kathryn Joyce puts them at about 25K. But lots of people get information from these folks and parrot it without being a participant. This was true in the church I attended.

    But, are there probably about 2 million families out there, still dealing with this stuff. They may fall away from the conference attendance, but they’re still carrying many of the doctrines away from the movement.

    The other thing that makes this hard to discern does come from the “interbreeding” that happens in homeschooling circles. People might roll their lips at Phillips, but they love Piper and might welcome his new friend, Doug Wilson.

    And then there is the overlap with the SBC and CBMW that you see in folks like the Baylys. They share many of the same doctrines.

    And in addition to that, lots of these things are also followed by many in the Independent Fundamental Baptist movement, though they are not Calvinists. Some of that came through Gothard who shares many of their stranger doctrines. And the IFB has produced most of the homeschooling and Christian education texts.

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  16. I have always found it interesting that the home schooled parents will trust a teacher that teaches tech level classes but not a teacher teaching math or English. It may be that they know nothing about electricity or computers. I wonder how they do with the upper math knowledge.
    Jim

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  17. Oh, and I neglected to mention Voddie Baucham. He’s the great Moses who intends to save both the SBC and the Family Integrated movement.

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  18. Jimmydee,

    You nailed it. There’s a big issue with proprietary knowledge. If they “own” a field of general study, their version is better. If they don’t have experts who do the homeschooling circuit (through conferences or literature), they’re at the mercy of the world and have to be more pragmatic.

    It’s all about elitism. These groups benchmark themselves against other Christians (something Paul said was not wise), and they focus on purity which becomes superiority. Instead of extending the Gospel to more people, they act like it is a limited commodity that they have to protect. If there’s more grace to go around, somehow, they’ll end up with less.

    Christians are not supposed to have the spirit of fear, but rather one of love, power and a sound mind. This movement is motivated by fear and self-preservation. They’re good at seizing power, but I don’t know that they do so well on the love and sound mind part at times. There’s only so much love to go around, too, I guess.

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  19. There was also Eric Wallace who was part of the family-integrated church movement. I remember jumper-clad homeschool mom at my former church who bought extra copies of Wallace’s book to hand it out – telling us that our church was doing it wrong and we should not be segregating our children. She bought the hype and was very convincing – so much that the pastor created an “intergenerational Sunday school” for those who wanted to go along with this idea. Those who didn’t could do the traditional Sunday schools with age segregation.

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  20. Jimmydee, you have described the dichotomy in my own family. I had a very good homeschool education, and would have been the honor student-type in your class… But my younger siblings, not so much. A lot changed between #1 and #7. I feel very sorry for my younger siblings’ lack of proper education and real-life skills. I had a good homeschool experience; they have not.

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  21. JA, My parents were all about Eric Wallace too (except for his eschatology). My mom was a big proponent of his church model and tried to “exhort” others into following his ideology/framework. What church did you attend in VA?

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  22. “I have seen more discipline shown from the kids that came from the public schools than the average home schooled. It is all dependent on the teacher. Some parents as teachers do a great job and some, well less than a public school bad teacher.”

    Jimmydee, I know exactly what you’re talking about. In my former church (cult) it was common for parents to stay up until 1:00-2:00 AM working on church projects/events, and roll out of bed after 10:00 in the morning. They *might* get two hours of schooling in most days. This was also one of those “churches” that taught character was the most important subject. Even if the kids were behind academically, if they had character, it was all they needed. No wonder I could never get any practical help from anybody on how to home school. (I was raised in public/private schools while my husband was home schooled.)

    Our schedule is completely different since parting ways with that place. We start school between 8:00-8:30– about the same time as a public school. Sometimes my kids get up earlier and start without me. (We use an online program.) Yesterday, I came out at 7:15 to find both my boys already at their computers hard at work. That initiative will serve them well in life.

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  23. Joyelle,

    From what I have seen myself, and heard others describe, your experience is common for some large homeschooling families. After a certain number of kids, the academic standards start to decline even though the parents may have had the best of intentions.

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  24. Joyelle – If you contact me by e-mail, I’ll tell you the name of the church in VA we attended. I don’t need to stir up trouble with any decent churches 🙂

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  25. We had our kids in Christian school until my oldest was in 8th grade. That’s when we found it difficult to pay tuition that was more than our monthly mortgage payment–even though we had both church member and multi-child discounts! We had to decide what to do: homeschool or public school. My husband put the kibosh on homeschool right away; he knew that I didn’t have the patience for it and he didn’t have the time to do his share. (He believed, as many homeschooling families do not, that teaching children is a TWO parent job.) So, with some trepidation, we put our kids in public school.

    It was the best decision we ever made.

    Our kids got more classes that played up their strengths instead of a one-size-fits-all education. For my oldest; art classes, every day, for three years–instead of once or twice a week from someone who wasn’t even an art teacher! For my middle child: advanced science that was real science, not YEC. For my youngest: pre-engineering and advanced math, subjects neither I nor my husband could teach.. They were challenged by honors classes, and later, by Advanced Placement courses, earning college credit in high school. Sorry, but I don’t know any Christian school which teaches that. Now my oldest two are working on their Bachelor’s degrees at local colleges with their youngest sibling coming up next year.

    This guy needs to actually GO to a public school and LISTEN and WATCH, instead of making assumptions fueled by paranoia. Not only that, how DARE he call his Christian brothers and sisters who work in the mission field of the public school “dogs”, “whoremongers”, and “children of Satan”! What spews from his fingers is far more venomous than anything taught in a public school classroom.

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  26. As a public school teacher, I find many of these “pull your kids out” statements self-serving and darkly humorous. There’s a lot of money up for grabs in home schooling. If you have plenty of cash and a small family, you can probably afford enough home schooling materials that the kids will get a reasonable education at home. If you don’t have cash or have a large family, I have no idea how a parent could collect enough materials for multiple children in multiple subjects for years on end.

    In case anyone is wondering, teachers don’t teach devil worship. On top of a lack of interest, we don’t have enough time to teach our subject area let alone branching off into devil worship.

    Don’t get me started on the number of home schooling parents who start talking about how students don’t really need advanced math/science classes either. Both of my parents are really talented in the humanities areas. I’m a science geek. Thankfully, my parents were more than willing to let other adults teach me what I wanted to learn.

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  27. All his hysterical claims aside, let’s look at this one comment: “God has explicitly commanded fathers to raise up their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, to teach them day in and day out all the commands of God and that the Lord our God is One Lord.”

    So I assume this gentleman works from home and takes primary responsibility to home school his children while his wife does dishes and such? Because how can he raise up his children day in and day out if he’s off at work somewhere outside of the home from 9-5 while his wife bears the burden of teaching? And I also imagine he must work for a Christian organization and not a God-hating, Satan-worshipping, blood-sucking organization like the local grocery store or insurance company. *shaking head*

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  28. Steve, aka Liberty for Captives,

    Right you are – – the leaders among the Homeschool Movement encourage dads to have home-based businesses and bring up their family in the family business. This was/is an integral part of Gregg Harris’ teachings and he, too, was an important person in the family-integrated church movement. He founded Household of Faith churches in the Pacific Northwest (and now beyond). I’ve read accounts that men were personally challenged if they did in fact work for heathens.

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  29. Meh. So much for being salt and light in the world. I just don’t get this isolationist, hate-propagating, fear-based, controlling, patriarchical, sword-wielding gibberish. Makes me cringe, and I was even in a cult. Dislike.

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  30. You’re right – isolationist and fear-mongering. 6 years ago, I put my senior in high school in the public high school for choir. I also volunteered to be accompanist at the same time because i was worried about the influence on my 6’8″ son by heathen Satanist government school people. (true story – I was worried about him and the bad influence)

    This experience was pivotal in helping me to realize we were isolating ourselves.

    Last summer I had the opportunity to go out to lunch with that choir teacher and through tears told her I think her high school choir may have saved my life spiritually and emotionally.

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  31. Wow, so glad that God opened a door for you, Julie Anne. Jesus didn’t walk around fighting a culture war or fearing his neighbors. He ate with them. Drank with them. Labored with them. Loved them. And so should we.

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  32. I have an interview coming up with Doug Bursch from a Seattle radio station in 3 hours (5 PM Pacific). The interview will be on spiritual abuse. Please pray that my voice comes back. It’s pretty bad right now. 820 AM KGNW in Seattle. Listen to live stream at kgnw.com

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  33. Go JA!

    Gregg Harris is a classic example of this stuff. And there are elements of it in complementarianism. We also have Piper advising men that if they work at jobs where they are working for women, they’re not being Biblical and should really seek other employment. The ideal is to stay at home and work from home so you can oversee your easily deceived wife who can’t really rightfully govern homeschooling. This was another big theme at the CHEC Summit in 2009. And I believe that the sermons of Gregg Harris teaching this stuff can be found on Desiring God’s (Piper’s) website.

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  34. Monique,

    Are they going to come up with the “new and improved” tenets?

    Swanson was trying to come up with a Biblical Homeschooler’s Manifesto, but I don’t think that it was much different than the Tenets of Biblical Patriarchy. I thought that they would introduce a whole new Talmud, but it just reiterated the same points as the other document.

    Does anyone know whatever happened to that effort?

    It was right after the True Woman conferences got started, and they advanced the “True Woman Manifesto” and pressured women there to sign the document to prove that they were True Women (TM).

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  35. So, essentially, those who homeschool and believe the above to be true, believe everyone else is sending their kids to Satan. It immediately sets apart the us vs them in Christian communities. The homeschooling, family-integrated folks are doing it the right way, everyone else is not.

    So all outside Our Little Bubble is SATAN.
    Which keeps everyone inside the Little Bubble forever.
    Like the Dwarfs in the stable in Aslan’s Land.

    “He who was born in a cage
    Yearns for his cage.
    With horror I understand
    That I Love My Cage.”
    — Yevgevny Yevtushenko

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  36. “they advanced the “True Woman Manifesto” and pressured women there to sign the document to prove that they were True Women (TM).”

    So, it’s not bad enough that we weren’t “blessed” with the superior body parts, now we aren’t even True Women(TM) unless we’ve signed the manifesto. My husband is just going to roll his eyes at this. Thank God there are still normal men in this world.

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  37. I’ve personally seen and heard of both pathetic academics and abuse (sexual and otherwise) in public schools, Christian schools, and homeschools. Public school officials cover up abuse and teachers’ unions go to bat for abusive teachers. Christian school administrators cover up abuse and abusive teachers get support from the church community. Homeschool parents hide and deny abuse. No one educational system has a monopoly on good or evil.

    I have a question for the Christians in the crowd. The Bible says that, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge [and wisdom].” How do you reconcile that with the public school system that explicitly denies that?

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  38. @CindyK:

    In third grade, my pastor went in to talk to one of my teachers. The teacher said something about those myths in the Bible, and I stood right up in class and said that she had no right to say that. The Bible was an historical book, etc.

    Cindy. It’s entirely possible you and your teacher were coming from different definitions of the word “Myth”.

    In the academic definition, Myth does NOT mean “made-up” or “fictional”. Myths are the “Old, Old Stories” of a people or culture that defines that culture; giving answers to questions about origin and destiny and Who We Are, regardless of whether they are “true” or “fictional”.

    Same with “history”. The Bible was written down (and before that handed down as oral tradition) with a different definition of “historical” than today. In ancient times, there was no clear division between history and myth (as defined above). History was joined with Mythic story, not a chronological checklist of Fact, Fact, Fact. That modern definition only reached critical mass with the Enlightenment/Age of Reason/Industrial Revolution.

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  39. Cindy wrote:
    “We also have Piper advising men that if they work at jobs where they are working for women, they’re not being Biblical and should really seek other employment.”

    I’m not agreeing with Piper here, just asking a question. Historically, men and women normally worked separately (or in cases where they did work together, it was in an open, public areas, such as harvesting crops). Doesn’t the typical modern office environment (where men and women often work together privately, behind closed doors) increase the likelihood of sexual harassment and abuse?

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  40. TIA,

    In my experience (I departed from a “church” that forbid dating or any co-mingling between genders without proper supervision), a segregation of the genders and a hyper-focus on what “might” occur tended to cause a forbidden fruit syndrome.

    Growing up in public/private schools I had plenty of male friends, one of which I still stay in touch with. Our relationships were pretty normal and natural. But in the thou-shall-not-touch church things got pretty weird. It also seems to have produced more than its fair share of pedophiles (half of them incestuous). I just don’t see that approach as being the answer.

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  41. TIA: ” Doesn’t the typical modern office environment (where men and women often work together privately, behind closed doors) increase the likelihood of sexual harassment and abuse?”

    I work in an office environment. What you describe as typical doesn’t represent my office situation whatsoever. Most of our doors are open most of the time when we ar present. We also have windows so that when our doors are closed, people can see if we are gone, are alone in our office working away, or if we are in private conversation with one or more others of any gender.

    My question is: How do you know if what you describe as ‘typical’ is actually typical?

    Not being confrontational, here. I’m just wondering where this question is coming from. Do you work in an office situation like what you describe? Or do you know others that do?

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  42. Headless Unicorn Guy,

    Cindy. It’s entirely possible you and your teacher were coming from different definitions of the word “Myth”.

    I truncated the account of what happened. I got up and questioned the teacher in front of the class and specifically asked her to explain what she meant. It was awful. I mean AWFUL. She said that many of “these old religions” weren’t true. Then she tried to tell me that if people had told me that if anything in the Bible really happened (the Old Testament became a focus), then those people lied to me. It was really ugly. You tend to hear stuff like that happening now, but this was in the early seventies. (It’s funny, because I vividly remember that class, but I don’t remember talking to my pastor about it.)

    The only thing close to what she said that I’ve heard since then has been from Richard Dawkins. She was aggressive like some of the angry, evangelical atheists tend to be. I was normally milquetoast, but what she said flew in the face of everything I believed and had ever been taught about respect of others with different beliefs. I didn’t tend to be angry, either, but I was mad about what she’d said. I must have demanded answers of that pastor.

    I went and tried to talk to a Jewish kid about it later that day, and he was too afraid to even talk to me. I remember asking him if there had been no King David and no Israel. He just looked at me, dumbfounded.

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  43. “… sending your child to a public school is wicked and rebellion against the clear commands of God.”

    Which apparently means my wife is one of Satan’s minions in their opinion since she is a credentialed teacher and her career has been in the public schools for decades.

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  44. TIA,

    I think that sexual harassment is a completely separate topic, and it was not the focus of Piper, nor was it the context of discussion. It was about the sin for complementarians of submitting to a woman as a superior. They say that it denies the Father’s Lordship over all creation because it goes against the hierarchy rules that they read into the Trinity and thus impose upon gender relations. As it relates to homeschooling, if the mother assumes the primary governance role over training children, this constitutes a woman usurping the authority of a man, even if the husband is unprepared or disinterested. In some of these homes, this also applies to boys over the age of thirteen.

    “We must reckon with the possibility that in the various spheres of life
    it is possible that role relationships emerge for men and women that so deeply
    compromise what a man or woman senses is appropriate for their masculine or
    feminine personhood that they have to seek a different position.”
    Recovering Biblical Manhood And Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical
    Feminism, Edited by John Piper and Wayne Grudem Crossway Books
    Wheaton, Illinois, 1991, p. 43

    “The God-given sense of responsibility for leadership in a mature man will
    not generally allow him to flourish long under personal, directive leadership
    of a female superior . . .”
    John Piper, Vision Of Biblical Complementarity, Manhood And Womanhood Defined According To The Bible, Recovering Biblical
    Manhood And Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Feminism, Edited by
    John Piper and Wayne Grudem Crossway Books Wheaton, Illinois, 1991

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  45. Listening to Julie Anne live right now. Her voice sounds rough, poor thing. But, so glad she’s bringing attention to Spiritual Abuse.

    Like

  46. Here’s the expanded quote, also from page 43:

    The God-given sense of responsibility for leadership in a mature man will not
    generally allow him to flourish long under personal, directive leadership of a female
    superior. J. I. Packer suggested that “a situation in which a female boss has a male
    secretary” puts strain on the humanity of both (see note 18). I think this would be true in other situations as well. Some of the more obvious ones would be in military combat settings if women were positioned so as to deploy and command men; or in professional baseball if a woman is made the umpire to call balls and strikes and frequently to settle heated disputes among men. And I would stress that this is not necessarily owing to male egotism, but to a natural and good penchant given by God.

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  47. Doug was an excellent interviewer. I really appreciated the time and the care with which he handled this difficult subject. I had hot lemon tea and steamed right before and during the break and my voice was still fried – lol – didn’t hurt at all, just sounded horrible. I was told it would be 10-20 minutes and it went for 30 minutes!

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  48. JA, I wish I could have heard your interview. Is there anyway I can hear it on the Internet? Also a question-what is up with all these churches and Christian groups that make you sign covenants or mission-type statements? Up until recent history, most people were unable to read or write. My brother goes to a church that does that and it seems like a one-way contract with the members obeying a bunch of rules that the elder dictate. Thanks. Ann

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  49. ” I have a question for the Christians in the crowd. The Bible says that, “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge [and wisdom].” How do you reconcile that with the public school system that explicitly denies that?”

    First of all, I don’t expect school or church to have full responsibility for what my child learns/understands, etc. .

    Secondly, I can explain the unbelievers to my child but how in the world can I explain the Christians?????

    And trust me, that has become a front and center challenge over the last 6 years or so. Of course, the typical explanation from Christians is that sinners, sin so what do you expect? Just ignore the bad stuff because we are all totally depraved to take responsibility for our actions.

    But we have seen some really evil, cruel and deceptive behavior from Christians….mostly long time professing believers who are in ministry. How does one explain that to a 10 year old, for example? I have my own ways that most would disagree with but would be glad to hear how others handle this. It is a balancing act for sure!

    The reason I have a problem with the public school system is because ours is very very bad. It is not about sending my child to private school to learn about God. it is about the discipline problems we have here in public school. More time is spent dealing with that than there is any actual teaching/learning going on. My heart goes out to teachers who are exhausted and have no real means to manage the classroom because they are told not to give referrals. It is all on them. And frankly, some of the parents are worse than the students. So the sacrifice to send to private school is more about them having the actual opportunity to learn anything at all.

    TIA, Here is some food for thought. Would you want a Christian accountant? Or would you want the best accountant whether Christian or not. How about a surgeon? Only a Christian one or the best and most experienced whether Christian or not? I feel the same way about education. The problem with our public schools is not the teaching but the very bad environment for learning.

    I am hoping for vouchers but doubt it will happen. Why not let the education market work with some serious competition for excellence?. Poor people deserve a chance for the best education for their child! Here, school choice scholarship meetings are packed with poor folks who want better for their children. Many of them from the ghettos. God bless them.

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  50. ” Doesn’t the typical modern office environment (where men and women often work together privately, behind closed doors) increase the likelihood of sexual harassment and abuse?”

    TIA, Wouldn’t that depend on the people? I spent 20 years traveling all over on business and often with men. Was I ever hit on? Of course. But I will say that being a professional makes all the difference. When you act with dignity and respect, people often rise to the standard. And those that don’t there are ways to deal with it and protect yourself. You have a standard going in and you don’t deviate from it no matter what.

    The church is the worst about the sexes not mingling. It is like saying “Don’t think Pink”.

    What is forbidden often becomes the focus. You see this in so many areas. From Islam and it’s view of women to all girl Catholic schools when I was growing up. Everyone knew they were the wildest ones. (wink)

    It was so bad at one mega church where I was consulting that a men and women staff could not ride in the same car to have lunch without a third party chaperone! They called it “protection”, I call it ridiculous and a waste of gas. It was all about “image”. Why? Because some of them were having affairs anyway. But they sure did not “look” like they were having affairs.

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  51. Diane – – I was really impressed by Doug’s apology, too. His compassion towards the hurting seemed genuine.

    Ann – btw, I did happen to discuss church membership covenants in the interview as a trend that can be troublesome.

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  52. Julie Anne,

    You’re hitting on all of my soap box topics lately…. Hate the covenant thing more than most people know, even though I go on about it. Terrible tactic of manipulation.

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  53. Yea, that’s a bad one, Cindy – church covenants. Todd Wilhelm’s story is one that comes to mind. I’ve heard others as well. During the interview, I followed Doug’s lead. He didn’t draw attention to any name in particular, so I didn’t either, but you and I both know that Acts 29 churches have a membership thing going on. I was thinking of them when I shared about this on the interview and he seemed to understand exactly what I meant – how abusive pastors could take advantage of this concept to control.

    I was really impressed by his interview. He obviously did some research on the blog.

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  54. There’s a church in our town that requires its members to sign the “covenant”. If you leave the church without elder approval you get shunned, simple as that. Lots of wounded believers in this town from that church

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  55. Joyelle said: “Makes my heart sad to see how my good friends from the past are so steeped in spiritual pride and deception.”

    I think this is the real issue. Pride and deception. I would also add fear to that.

    What bothered me most about all of this is in the last paragraph:

    “Does this reflect the great commission which requires us to go into all the world, making disciples and teaching them to obey all things He has commanded? Absolutely! These are merely the manifestations of the gospel lived out. The gospel presents the love of God and the love of our fellow man.”

    So, this guy talks about loving our fellow man, yet he calls his fellow man the following: children of Satan, dogs, whoremongers, people who will not inherit eternal life (like he has any say in that), anti-Christs, abominations, foolish, and corrupting influences. How are any of those words that he uses to describe people who work in public education showing love toward his fellow man?

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  56. Julie Anne – After reviewing Greg Harris’ Household of Faith model a couple of years ago, I wondered if they were considered a FIC. You answered that.

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  57. There’s a church in our town that requires its members to sign the “covenant”. If you leave the church without elder approval you get shunned, simple as that. Lots of wounded believers in this town from that church.

    That’s exactly what I mentioned in the interview, Tim. That is ridiculous. It’s difficult enough to leave a church, but if you have that kind of dark cloud hanging over you, it just makes it so much worse.

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  58. Yes, Kathi, HOFCC is definitely family integrated. Harris went on the speaking circuit on this topic. We were part of a HOFCC plant church for 6 months in Hillsboro.

    Something happened to the Gresham HOFCC – he’s no longer pastoring there and they closed up shop. I wonder what new venture Harris is up to now.

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  59. There is a link to the interview here. Doug introduces the program by talking about what’s coming up in they show and he tells the story about someone who experienced spiritual abuse. This is during the first few minutes. The actual interview is at 42:25 mark.

    I listened to a little bit of it (whew my voice sounds bad). One correction. I said my accountability people watch me “like a hawk.” That probably was not the best choice of words to use. I have a core group and others who read. They keep tabs on the blog and we talk about situations that arise. For example, last weekend I mentioned a situation that happened on Twitter that got me really worked up because it had to do with my daughter. I wanted to fight. I was angry. Someone suggested that I let it go. I didn’t want to. But decided to sleep on it. The next day, I didn’t have that burning anger. I did let it go. That was sound advice. I needed that. Nothing would have been accomplished. Redhead ranting woman is not always a good thing.

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  60. Julie Ann, what a powerful presentation and how humbling to listen to. It was beautiful to hear how you and the pastor interacted there and I hope to share the podcast with others, including my own pastor.

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  61. TIA asks: ” Doesn’t the typical modern office environment (where men and women often work together privately, behind closed doors) increase the likelihood of sexual harassment and abuse?”

    No. To repeat Lydia’s point, sure there is the yucky out there — there are serial abusers of power and certain industries/professions/workplaces are worse than others, even today. But 1)it’s illegal 2)if an abuser harasses or discriminates, the victim has civil and criminal recourse; 3) that recourse can be very painful and costly for the institution so there is a premium placed upon training and compliance and others who witness it are much more likely to call it out to avoid penalties that could harm them and the organization.

    For those who’ve been fed the purity culture rhetoric, I suppose it’s hard to imagine, but seriously, this weird obsession with men’s uncontrollable sexual urges and women’s’ duty to shield men lest they stumble could not exist in a modern, professional workplace. If a co-worker is aroused by my “well-turned ankle” ( to borrow the Victorian phrase), that’s his problem, not mine. If his out of control, immature impulses result in harassment or discrimination — only working with men because he just can’t control himself around women, for instance — that’s legally actionable — never mind that his immaturity is depriving the organization of my talents and skill sets. Moreover, if a man refuses to accept my authority, that’s insubordination.

    Make no mistake, it’s way better than it was 20 years ago, but even then, if someone EVER said, “I just can’t be alone with women employees,” that person would be considered with disdain as an immature, sexist, out of control jerk, a bad employee with serious emotional problems who needed firm disciplinary action and oversight to avoid being a serious liability to the employer.

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  62. Thank you Ruth. i laughed at TIA’s comments. I have worked as a woman in male dominated industries for the last 45 years. Sure there has been sexual hanky panky —– between consenting adults. Sure, there has also been sexual harassment between UN-consenting adults. It’s the real world. I had an harassment situation back in the 80s and learned a very powerful phrase to use with management: “My lawyer told me to tell you . . .” End of problem.

    It really bothers me that too many so-called christians think that men are unable to control their sexual urges. Why do you think they are so weak? Most boys and men know what “NO” means but there are a few who don’t get it. Some are christians, some aren’t.

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  63. Julie Anne titled the OP “How Influential Was Doug Phillips and His Teachings?”
    One minor correction– that’s IS, present tense. Remember, he may have made some mistakes, but we’re ALL despicable worms, and we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water.

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  64. Sorry, I think I confused things by including the reference to Piper. I should have made it clearer that I wasn’t asking about the situation he [Piper] described, but the more general situation of men and women working together and sexual harassment/abuse. I know that Doug Phillips taught that men and women shouldn’t work together, for reasons I alluded to, and he prided himself on only having male employees at Vision Forum (although in reality many women did work alongside the men at Vision Forum, he simply didn’t have any female “employees”).

    Okay, back to the question I was trying to ask. Thanks to all those who replied. Yes, I guess most offices these days are more “open” than in the past. Between cubicles, windows, glass doors, etc. there is less “private” space than in offices of years ago. Also, “secretaries” aren’t as common as they used to be until you get into upper management. I specifically mentioned harassment and abuse, but I should have included adultery as well. Actually, I think that’s more the type of situation I was trying to ask about, where there are consensual sexual relations, but outside of marriage. Obviously, things can happen anywhere, but there is a definite difference between the interaction of a man and woman at the grocery store (customer & cashier) and a man and woman at the office working on a project together. I think the latter situation leads to adultery much more frequently than the former. Any more feedback? Thanks.

    Question for the egalitarians in the crowd. Do you think it is wrong that the Olympics (and other sporting events) have separate men’s and women’s events? Shouldn’t they all be competing together on a level playing field? I’m not trying to stir up anything, honest. I’m just interested in what other people think about such things.

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  65. “Actually, I think that’s more the type of situation I was trying to ask about, where there are consensual sexual relations, but outside of marriage. Obviously, things can happen anywhere, but there is a definite difference between the interaction of a man and woman at the grocery store (customer & cashier) and a man and woman at the office working on a project together. I think the latter situation leads to adultery much more frequently than the former. Any more feedback? Thanks.”

    If people are animals and cannot control themselves, what do you propose? What is the answer? You may not have been involved with back stage stuff at many large churches but I can assure you the instance of affairs is pretty common and the ones I am quite famiiliar with are strong comp doctrine churches. So what do you do with that? It is not like the teaching actually helped curb such things but it did provide pretty good cover because few suspected these things for a long time until someone was caught. (Once a high paid staff pastor was caught with the legal counsel (female) at a mega. They were in an unused dark corridor where they thought there were no hall security cameras. They were wrong. And no, neither one was fired. They “repented” Sigh)

    “Question for the egalitarians in the crowd. Do you think it is wrong that the Olympics (and other sporting events) have separate men’s and women’s events? Shouldn’t they all be competing together on a level playing field? I’m not trying to stir up anything, honest. I’m just interested in what other people think about such things.”

    Well, I am a mutualist so not sure I can answer for egalitarians. I think you might be seeing more and more of that. However, generally speaking there are physical differences for brawn, speed, etc. But I bet JA could do some competition in basketball or something that requires height? I have dear friends where the husband is a chef and she is a policewoman. Seems the gun outranks the brawn. :o) And she checks for burglers because she has training. And if she goes down, he has his sharp knives he is experienced with. It is a big joke with them because they attend a comp church..

    And in our intellectual property/high tech age, we don’t need as many strong backs to pick the cotton or plow the field with ox. Wait!!, pregnant african american women picked cotton all the time. Seems those “roles” did not matter so much when they are nobodies.

    Have you ever met Piper or Russ Mooore? Tiny men. (so is Doug Phillips) I would be the one who would have to rescue them from a burning building. They certainly could not handle even rescuing each other. But all those named above are very patriarchal and strident about women’s roles. Hmm. What is one to do with the “physical” facts? :o)

    But I am wondering what phyical differences have to do spirituality? That is really the question for believers.

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  66. Lydia, I remember when Piper (it was him, wasn’t it?) said something about a woman should always let a man protect her from an attacker. He made no allowances for abilities. He suggested if the woman stepped forward to protect the man she’d be outside the will of God.

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  67. “But 1)it’s illegal 2)if an abuser harasses or discriminates, the victim has civil and criminal recourse; 3) that recourse can be very painful and costly for the institution so there is a premium placed upon training and compliance and others who witness it are much more likely to call it out to avoid penalties that could harm them and the organization.”

    You got that right. After a huge award for a serious SH case in this state back in the early 90’s, companies started clamoring for training. It was a big money maker. And it was documented that you had been trained on SH. So if it happened, the company was not liable. The jerk was.

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  68. “Lydia, I remember when Piper (it was him, wasn’t it?) said something about a woman should always let a man protect her from an attacker. He made no allowances for abilities. He suggested if the woman stepped forward to protect the man she’d be outside the will of God.”

    oooookaaay. Then it would be a sin to save your husbands life if you could. Right. Piper always makes so much logical sense when you analyze his words. (Not. The guy is a flowery, verbose nutcase)

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  69. “I suppose it’s hard to imagine, but seriously, this weird obsession with men’s uncontrollable sexual urges and women’s’ duty to shield men lest they stumble could not exist in a modern, professional workplace”

    Exactly, Ruth. It is Islamic thinking with a plastic fish slapped on it. Men cannot control themselves. They are basically saying: We are little boys who cannot control ourselves but we are also in charge!!

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  70. “had an harassment situation back in the 80s and learned a very powerful phrase to use with management: “My lawyer told me to tell you . . .” End of problem.”

    Hee Hee. Well, back in the 80’s before the drastic SH laws, my biggest Sexual Harassment problem was a woman! Talk about awkward.

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  71. TIA, I understand that you are generally curious and may be coming from a culture where you are instructed over and over that men and women can’t be trusted alone without tearing their clothes off. Simply put, in today’s modern, professional American workspace, it is commonplace for men and women to work together, to travel together, to share cars together, to be behind close doors together, and to work on projects together, in close proximity, over long hours. We’re adults, professionals, and out of respect for our jobs, our employers, our colleagues, and the law, we all manage, by and large, to keep sex, adultery, and harassment out of the workplace. Plenty of employers have no fraternization policies and will be particularly harsh when relationships arise between a senior person and a subordinate because harassment, unequal power, and lack of consent are so much more likely. I suppose the greater prevalence of open offices and cubicle farms might make it marginally more difficult for a harasser or two co-workers in a consensual relationship, but i”m skeptical. If a guy’s marital vows and self-control are so shaky that he can’t help harassing the sweet young thing with the well-turned ankle, being the sneaky scum he is, he’ll find ways to be a creeper even in an open plan workplace — email, texting, standing oppressively over her, following her to the coffee machine, car, or bathroom.

    I’m really sorry [not] that these category of “Christian” men are such weak, helpless, lustful things that they can’t control themselves, poor babies, from stumbling over those seductive women with trim ankles and pretty necks. If I couldn’t trust them with a subordinate, I sure wouldn’t trust them to represent my company anywhere else. I eagerly await the day they try to make that argument that they are such “speshul, delicate snowflakes” they can’t work with a woman who represents a client, a valued supplier, buyer, or customer, or perhaps law enforcement. “I’m sorry, Miss OSHA inspector but I can’t be present with you for our close out inspection interview because I might stick my hand down your top because you are a woman and I’ve got less self-control than 13 year old boy.” Yeah. You go with that.

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  72. @lydia: The physical stature of such men as Phillips seems to be mentioned often by their critics. Why is this?

    To those who are critics of homeschooling-many people homeschool because they want to provide their children with an education that reasons from Christian premise. We made this decision long before Phillips, patriarchy, and all the -isms and “movement’ and ” ministries. It has been a financial and social sacrifice because we wanted a better education for our children. It has nothing to do with Gothard, Phillips, or spiritual abuse.

    I do not underestimate the secularisers, the teachers unions or the left generally. They would love to abolish homeschooling, both to eliminate a competitor, and because they want to control the ideological content of education.

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  73. @KeithBlankenship:

    I do not underestimate the secularisers, the teachers unions or the left generally. They would love to abolish homeschooling, both to eliminate a competitor, and because they want to control the ideological content of education.

    i.e. “CONSPIRACY CONSPIRACY CONSPIRACY CONSPIRACY CONSPIRACY…”
    Against which We Real True Christian Homeschoolers Stand Alone.
    Why don’t you include The Mark of the Beast as well?

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  74. They would love to abolish homeschooling, both to eliminate a competitor, and because they want to control the ideological content of education.

    That’s a pretty big generalization. Where is this coming from? I don’t think the teachers that I rub shoulders with at the local high school would say this.

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  75. HUG,

    Are you suggesting that teachers’ unions appreciate competition from charter schools, private schools, and homeschooling? Or that they don’t want to control the ideological content of education? Who’s wearing the tinfoil hat now?

    The reality is that there are many dedicated public school, private school, and homeschool teachers who genuinely care for their students and do what they believe is best for them. There are also many teachers, administrators, private/charter school “owners”, curriculum sellers, etc. who are simply in the business to make a buck.

    Charter schools, while certainly an improvement in some respects, also serve as a means of transferring the vast wealth of the public education system to well-connected private individuals eg. Bruce Rauner, Illinois gubernatorial candidate and former chairman of private equity firm GTCR, is a big supporter of charter schools, because they allow him to funnel money to himself and his friends, all in the name of “for the children”. Education is big business. Follow the money!

    The big difference is that private schools and homeschools operate on a voluntary basis. Public schools operate by coercion and force of law. Why not have a free market in education? What are the public schools and teachers’ unions afraid of?

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  76. No biblical love for God or man will ever send a child to a public school to be trained by those who hate God.

    Glick appears to be repeating indirectly something I caught Phillips teaching on those lectures I have. He reasoned that because the command to teach God’s commands to your children immediately follows the command to love God in Deuteronomy 6:4-8, it is therefore the application of the command to love God – i.e., if you really love God, you will homeschool your children. John 21:15-19 was involved too somehow but I’d have to look up exactly how.

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  77. Julie Anne: I don’t trust the government/educational complex to look out for the rights of homeschoolers. You may know some open-minded teachers. I am sure there are some out there. I can’t seem to post a link, but an article in The Freeman, July, 2013, by Wendy McElroy is pretty good on this. The NEA has long been critical of freedom of education. As far back as 1988. Again, I can’t seem to post a link.
    To those who say “conspiracy” and ‘paranoia”, just look at DOJ’s position in Romeike.

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  78. Keith, my entire education, from kindergarten through my Ph.D., was conducted in public schools and I do not ever remember being taught anything at all that was contrary to Christian principles.

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  79. Marsha: You must have had a good, but exceptional experience. in what field did you receive a Ph. D.?

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  80. Keith, Marsha’s experience is not unusual. It matches what I experienced, and what my wife and kids had too. All public school all the way and we are all strong in our faith.

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  81. It certainly does not match my experience, either here or in Germany. I wonder where all these schools were when I was going to school. Perhaps they have all sprung up since 1981. A shame I missed them.

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  82. Marsha wrote:
    “Keith, my entire education, from kindergarten through my Ph.D., was conducted in public schools and I do not ever remember being taught anything at all that was contrary to Christian principles.”

    Really? They never taught anything denying the existence of God? They never taught anything that conflicted with “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength”?

    My entire education was in public schools and it included much that was contrary to Christian principles. It included fellow students at teachers’ college insisting that there was nothing wrong with teachers having sexual relations with students. The instructor didn’t agree with that, but they still got their teaching credentials just like everyone else.

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  83. Keith,

    Idk. School experiences vary so widely. Some have good public/private school experiences, and others have a horrible time. Same goes for home schooling. I’ve read stories of poor schools with caring teachers and high-achieving students. There’s a private Christian school in my city that’s primarily attended by kids from wealthier families. The drug abuse is rampant there. It’s very difficult to make a generalization. Some homeschooling families are neglectful and abusive. Others are cranking out spelling bee champs. I think each parents has to research what’s available in their area and make the best decision possible. The answers are not so black and white.

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  84. TIA: These utopian institutions must be limited to certain ares of the country. They don’t bear much resemblance to what I have been exposed to. I fear that only homeschoolers will stand up for their rights.

    As for Phillips, he has not influenced my family regarding homeschooling. Gothard was not familiar to me at all, but I am seeing the connection between him and spiritual abuse. Again, he has not been an influence on my family.

    We don’t have the Lutheran schools in my part of the country which are prevalent where the LCMS and WELS are more numerous, so my family did not have that option. So we chose to educate at home.

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  85. I had a mixed bag of private school (both Catholic and Baptist – – yea, I know) and also public. I also now have 6 yrs of volunteering at public high school and some of the teachers are my friends. Most of the teachers I know are either Christian and if not Christian, they have strong morals/values.

    The NEA may have their agenda, but it doesn’t always trickle down to every school district and every teacher.

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  86. Beenthere: What is black and white to me is that our constitutional rights pursuant to Meyer v. Nebraska, Pierce, and other cases must be vigilantly defended. Certainly, there are some open-minded types in the country who will stand with us, but I fear the number is small.

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  87. Keith,

    I can appreciate your concern. My state is one of the most liberal in the US for homeschoolers, so I haven’t seen any threats here. A few years ago, Louisiana, talked about offering vouchers to homeschoolers in an effort to improve their educational system. (There was debate from the HSLDA as to whether it was a good idea.) I am currently home schooling my kids. I’m not opposing your rights. I AM seeking balance having come from the extreme patriarchal side of homeschooling. I’m tired of moving in fear. I want what’s best for my kids and my family.

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  88. Tim wrote:
    “Keith, Marsha’s experience is not unusual. It matches what I experienced, and what my wife and kids had too. All public school all the way and we are all strong in our faith.”

    I am strong in my faith as well, but that wasn’t what Marsha was claiming. You are saying that the results of your family’s experience were good, but that’s a different issue.

    In your public school experience, did they teach that God created everything? That’s an important piece of information that has implications for every subject. The idea that you can teach anything, just leaving God out of it, is contrary to Christian principles. It’s saying that God is irrelevant, which is not a Christian view. That’s not to say that you can’t teach 2 + 2 = 4 without mentioning God, but 2 + 2 = 4 only has meaning and relevance because of God’s existence.

    No doubt you’ll say that you and your children learned about God’s existence at home and church. Wonderful! But that again highlights that public schools do not (and cannot, by their very nature) provide even a basic education.

    Like

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