Doug Phillips & Vision Forum, Family Integrated Churches, Homeschool Movement, Scott Brown, Vision Forum

How Influential Was Doug Phillips and His Teachings?

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Taking a look at Doug Phillips’ strong influence in the Homeschool Movement and Family-Integrated Church movement

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For people outside of the Homeschool Movement or Christian Patriarchy, they may wonder how Doug Phillips could be so influential.  It’s not just about Phillips, the head of an organization/business/pastor, it’s about Phillips who pushed an agenda onto the Christian homeschooling community in a very powerful and compelling way.

As I was researching the history of family-integrated churches and National Center for Family-Integrated Churches (NFCIC), the organization founded by Doug Phillips, now run by Scott Brown, I stumbled across an article which is no longer online, but can be accessed through the Wayback Machine.  While reading the comments, one particular commenter brought me instantly back to what it felt like listening to speakers like Phillips at homeschool conventions.

I wanted you to get an idea of the intensity of this guy.   This kind of tone and demeanor was prevalent in the Homeschool Movement at every homeschool convention I ever attended (in four different states).  In the excerpts, the commenter, Ryan Glick, is defending homeschooling and family-integrated churches.  He refers to Doug Phillips’ teachings.  But first, here is some personal background information Glick provided:

To Shawn, and to all those who have commented above, I have been a part of family-integrated churches for the last 10 years at least. I have served in the National Center for Family-Integrated Churches (NCFIC) and have been indirectly involved with Vision Forum Ministries over the last two and a half years. I was also a member of Hope Baptist church for over two years where Scott Brown, the director of the NCFIC, is an elder, and I currently am a member of a very recent church plant of Hope Baptist where Scott is still a standing elder until the plant is complete.

And here’s one more bit of personal background information:

So where was I schooled? At home. I never attended a public school or a Christian school and I praise God and thank my parents that that is the case. I wouldn’t want it any other way. And in case you were wondering, I’ll be home schooling my own children! :).

The following is just one excerpt of many comments.   The comment was long, so I added paragraphs for easier reading and bolded key points.

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Source
photo credit: vincentvds2 via photopin cc
 
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Ryan Glick says:

Robert: In reference to your last comment about Doug Phillips praying for all Christians to be homeschooling and in family-integrated churches, I could not agree with him more. To put this very bluntly lest anyone misunderstand where I as a [sic] individual stand on this issue: sending your child to a public school is wicked and rebellion against the clear commands of God.

Some may be ignorant and not in wanton rebellion, but that does not make them in compliance with the Lord’s commands. Those who utilize public education are sacrificing their children on the altar of a false god, blaspheming the most high God, teaching these children to walk contrary to the true and the living God, and defiling them with the most corrupt moral degradations of society.

God has explicitly commanded fathers to raise up their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, to teach them day in and day out all the commands of God and that the Lord our God is One Lord. He has declared that there is no wisdom or light in any who reject the Word of the Lord: “The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?” He has called every spirit that does not declare Jesus Christ to have come in the flesh the spirit of anti-Christ. He says that all who deny the record that God bear of his Son make God out to be a liar. That is blasphemy against our Lord and King!

God has said that those who pervert morality and follow after strange flesh do so because they have refused to glorify God as God. We make the issue of education out to be a [sic] issue of Christian liberty, but those who send their children to the public Schools must realize that they are giving their children to people who are the children of Satan, to people who teach the doctrines of devils, to people that God has called dogs and whoremongers, to people who will not inherit eternal life. They are sending their children to be trained by the spirit of anti-Christ in to the abominations of the heathen.

Upon what basis shall I as a Christian not plead with God that He would awaken parents from their slumber so that they would immediately pull their children out of these God-hating, devil-worshiping institutions? Does not the love of Christ and the love of our neighbor wrench our heart so that we can do nothing less? And if throwing our children in to age-segmented societies where they are being trained by their foolish peer groups provides the same corrupting influence upon children, should I also not plead with God to plant family-integrated churches that preach the Word in season and out of season, and who worship God (not the family) in spirit and in truth?

I will conclude by answering your final question: Does this reflect the great commission which requires us to go into all the world, making disciples and teaching them to obey all things He has commanded? Absolutely! These are merely the manifestations of the gospel lived out. The gospel presents the love of God and the love of our fellow man. No biblical love for God or man will ever send a child to a public school to be trained by those who hate God.

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So, essentially, those who homeschool and believe the above to be true, believe everyone else is sending their kids to Satan.  It immediately sets apart the us vs them in Christian communities.  The homeschooling, family-integrated folks are doing it the right way, everyone else is not.

Side note:  This homeschool mom is wanting to remind Mr. Glick’s homeschool teacher about proper use of articles, “an” vs “a.”  My evil-government school taught me that.

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177 thoughts on “How Influential Was Doug Phillips and His Teachings?”

  1. My mother is as dumb as a box of hammers and hated school. Do you really think we would have gotten a quality education from such a woman? Thank the FSM that we all got our Master’s from public schools.

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  2. Keith, what if the public school teacher is Buddhist? Do you want her to be able to teach her faith in public school, or do you want to restrict teaching to only your narrow sect of christianity? What if I am from a different sect of christianity? Are my rights not to be respected?

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  3. “In your public school experience, did they teach that God created everything? That’s an important piece of information that has implications for every subject.”

    Actually, I spent my junior high years in a small community, and some of my teachers were also members of the church we attended. In fact, my American history teacher oversaw the entire Sunday School youth department.

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  4. @ Beenthere; Again, who will stand up for our rights? I am not a patriarchalist. I am not even an ‘evangelical” (whatever that is). I am a Christian, confessional Lutheran variety. It is clear that the left will not stand up for homeschoolers. Will Christians who do not homeschool standup for those who do?

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  5. NM girl: I don’t really care about the beliefs of the public school teachers. It is really none of my concern, as I do not utilize the public schools at the primary/secondary level, although I faithfully pay my property taxes each year. So a Buddhist is fine by me for schools I am not using. My point is about my children, not the children of others.

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  6. “Will Christians who do not homeschool standup for those who do?”

    I hope so. But commentary like we read in the OP isn’t going to garner much sympathy.

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  7. nmgirl wrote:
    “Keith, what if the public school teacher is Buddhist? Do you want her to be able to teach her faith in public school, or do you want to restrict teaching to only your narrow sect of christianity? What if I am from a different sect of christianity? Are my rights not to be respected?”

    That is the inherent problem with public schools, which is why there should not be public schools. Education should be a free market. Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, atheists, none of the above, etc. could all set up their own schools and charge whatever parents are willing to pay for their children to be educated. No one should be forced by law to pay for the education of someone else’s children.

    And BTW, Buddhist teachers do teach their faith in public schools.

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  8. OP stands for “Original Post” — meaning the article Julie Anne wrote that started this thread.

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  9. TIA:,And BTW, Buddhist teachers do teach their faith in public schools.
    If that is true then that teacher is violating the laws of the United States.

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  10. Beenthere: Thank you. I am not defending the original post. I don’t know who Ryan Glick is. I am merely making two primary points. 1) many people who value the freedom to educate at home have nothing to do with Phillips, Gothard, or ‘patriarchalists” Until a year or two ago, I would have answered “Title of a high-ranking member of the Eastern Orthodox clergy” if I had been asked what a patriarch is. 2) People who value the freedom to educate at home must vigorously assert their rights, otherwise they will lose them.

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  11. Keith,

    I understand what you’re saying. What Julie Anne (and others) have been drawing attention to is the fact that the “Vision Forum/Patriarchy” types have had an inordinately loud voice in the homeschool arena. They predominate many state homeschool conventions. Some leaders in the major homeschool associations subscribe to this ideology. You may someday be surprised to find yourself associated with them by default. We have to find a way to promote the positive aspects of home schooling while calling out those who use it abusively.

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  12. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

    Education is a right. Parents have the right to educate their own children. No one has the right to force someone else to pay for their child’s education (via property taxes or otherwise).

    Healthcare is a right. Individuals/families have the right to maintain and pay for their own health. No one has the right to force someone else to pay for their healthcare expenses (via income taxes/penalties/etc., voluntary insurance contracts are legitimate).

    A “living wage” is a right. Each individual/family has the right to work and earn enough money to support themselves. No one has the right to force someone else to pay for their living expenses.

    Forcing someone (via taxes) to pay for someone else’s education, healthcare, or living expenses is an infringement of their rights. No one is stopping anyone from paying for someone’s else education, healthcare, or living expenses if they decide to do so voluntarily (actually, yes, the government does sometimes restrict those things, but they shouldn’t). Many people would no doubt do so if the forced confiscation of their wealth were eliminated.

    Julie Anne, if this is too far off topic, feel free to throw it in the dust bin.

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  13. BTDT wrote:
    “We have to find a way to promote the positive aspects of home schooling while calling out those who use it abusively.”

    Amen.

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  14. . They predominate many state homeschool conventions. Some leaders in the major homeschool associations subscribe to this ideology. You may someday be surprised to find yourself associated with them by default. We have to find a way to promote the positive aspects of home schooling while calling out those who use it abusively.

    ^^^^Bingo!

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  15. “TIA:,And BTW, Buddhist teachers do teach their faith in public schools.
    If that is true then that teacher is violating the laws of the United States.”

    You don’t say. I guess the only solution is to scrap the whole system. 😉

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  16. TIA, as long as the public schools in my community continue to be good, I would be happy for members of my family to be educated there. (My daughter and her husband and children live in another state but public education is good there too). I prefer to have religious teaching kept to our home and church and left out of English, math, science, etc.

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  17. “Education is a right. Parents have the right to educate their own children. No one has the right to force someone else to pay for their child’s education (via property taxes or otherwise).”

    Yeah, I know. 🙂
    Two days ago a constable showed up at the door to serve my husband with a lawsuit from the local ISD for taxes we owe. The irony of it. (By the way, we DO believe in paying our taxes, and my husband already had an arrangement worked out with the county. It was just funny to get sued by a school system we don’t use.)

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  18. What if you send your kid to a Christian school and they are teaching Arminianism and you are Calvinist? I know some Calvinists who would say that’s a bad Gospel. So, wouldn’t it be better if no religion was taught in school?

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  19. Going back to the OP (Thank you BTDT!) – Is anyone else bothered by the words that Ryan Glick uses to describe those who work to educate kids in the public school setting? He calls them children of Satan, dogs, whoremongers, people who will not inherit eternal life, anti-Christs, abominations, foolish, and corrupting influences. Think what you want about the public school system, but these are horrible words to describe people who work tirelessly for the education of our kids. They are rude, unnecessary, and unChristian.

    For all of the public school teachers who read this blog, I apologize for this. Ryan Glick has no right to call you these things. At one point he talks about loving our fellow man and the next he’s hurling insults. Honestly, I’m disgusted with Ryan Glick.

    James 3:9 – With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be.

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  20. Julie Anne: So I have missed nothing by never having attended a homeschool convention? (Trying to make a smiley, can’t seem to do it.)
    Kathi: I certainly don’t like the language. As I said, I don’t know who he is. Although I believe in educational freedom, I do not approve of his language at all. He may think he has a right to use such terms. Perhaps your posting of the quote from St. James will be read by him.

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  21. Keith – I am, too, am for educational freedom. I am against people like Ryan saying, “No biblical love for God or man will ever send a child to a public school to be trained by those who hate God.” If we are for educational freedom, then that means that we need to be open to all kinds of education and open to supporting families to educate their children the way that they see best.

    I think homeschooling is great. I homeschooled for 10 years. However, it is not for everyone, and I think it is wrong for Christians to condemn others for their decision to send a child to public school. It is not a biblical issue. It is a choice, and only that.

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  22. Keith, You are probably better off not having attended a Christian Homeschool Convention. They should rename it Reconstructionist Homeschool Convention or perhaps Patriarchy and Quiverfull Homeschool Convention.

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  23. TIA, I am all for scraping the whole system. It is not working. It was designed for a manufacturing/agricultural society. We can start with the Dept. of Education that Jimmy Carter started. Why should the feds be involved in education? That is a state/local issue.

    In economic development, companies look for an educated/skilled workforce and low taxes. States could compete for the best educated workforce. One of the saddest things I heard in my career was at a conference that had a panel discussion of business owners. There were several on there from large chains of convenience gas stations. They said they have found that single moms with GED’s make the best hires. They are resourceful, frugal, they have to work and they had to pass a test so they know they can read and write.

    I say competition would drastically change things. But then free markets are a thing of the past in the US.

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  24. BTW, I would not be so hard on teachers. They end up in a no win situation. Most curriculum is laid out for them in detail, they end up dealing with discipline issues they have no control over and most are required to have a masters in education instead of in the subject matter they love and wanted to teach. Many have to teach to standards tests.

    TIA, God LOVES learning. That is why He created us with magnificent brains that can absorb so much. He is not a Taliban god who controls every molecule and will zap you if you don’t mention his name in Math class. In fact, He would rather the Math teacher BE LIKE Jesus. And for that to happen the Math teacher needs to meet real Christians who are like Jesus. Not the Taliban who hates him because he is agnostic or something.. Actions speak louder than our worn out words about Him.

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  25. “What if you send your kid to a Christian school and they are teaching Arminianism and you are Calvinist? I know some Calvinists who would say that’s a bad Gospel. So, wouldn’t it be better if no religion was taught in schoolZ”

    We are already seeing that fight make its way into some private Christian schools here. Christian schools teach bible, right? They have youth pastors from seminary doing chapel. Already some questions have been asked by parents as to what is taught. One dad wanted to know why the chapel speaker taught that it was ordained by God whether you would be rich or poor. The dad thought it was education/hard work/ingenuity or you inherited it or stoled it from someone or won office. :o)

    I suspect it is going to get interesting.

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  26. You are correct about John Thompson and Phil Lancaster being leaders of the FIC movement before Doug Phillips came on the scene. He became good friends with them through his work with home school leaders. As Doug started speaking, hen FIC movement grew even larger with his popularity. I had forgotten Eric Wallace’s last name until you mentioned it. (Ironically had been racking my brain for the name over the past few weeks. Had met him many years ago and was trying to update my husband on who Eric was). He too, was part of the group particularly as he was in close proximity as Doug (both lived in Northern Virginia)

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  27. “What if you send your kid to a Christian school and they are teaching Arminianism and you are Calvinist? I know some Calvinists who would say that’s a bad Gospel. So, wouldn’t it be better if no religion was taught in school?”

    *All* schools teach religion. I know that some education is considered “non-religious” according to American legal definitions, but the fact is that education is inherently religious. It is based on some view of ultimate reality, either explicit or (more often) implicit. All education is based on one faith or another. Even science is impossible apart from faith. It rests upon assumptions which ultimately are believed by faith.

    This again gets back to the point I have been making. Education should be a free market, with parents having the right to choose how their children are educated, and no one forced to pay for the education of someone else’s system. If Calvinists don’t want their children being taught Arminianism, they would have no obligation to send their children to such a school (and vice versa). Similarly for other religions/worldviews.

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  28. Kathi,

    Yes, Ryan Glick’s comments are out of line. I’m all for abolishing the public school system (for reasons mentioned above), but I don’t believe everyone in it is evil as he describes.

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  29. TIA, I just do not see it that way. Science is based on collecting data to test theories. It is not based on faith.

    I’m a sociologist. I do science. If the DOC hires me to determine whether a proposed program will reduce recidivism, then I will take a group of interested, eligible inmates (twice the number that can be served), and randomly assign them to the program group or the control group. I will then track arrests and convictions after release for a year, two, or three to determine whether there is a statistically significant difference between the groups. If someone questions my work, they can themselves take the names and track arrests and convictions. Unless I have made a mistake, then regardless of whether the person is Christian, Jew, Muslim, or atheist, they will come up with the same results. Religious faith doesn’t enter into it.

    It is the same with math results or using correct grammar.

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  30. Kathi wrote:
    “It is not a biblical issue. It is a choice, and only that.”

    Every issue is a biblical issue. On many issues, the Bible gives liberty to individuals to choose among many options. On other issues, the Bible requires or excludes certain options (eg. murder, adultery, theft, etc.).

    As I hope I have made clear in my comments, I am opposed to the public school system because it is institutionalized theft. It involves using the force of government (via property taxes) to do what is immoral for an individual (forcing a neighbor to pay for the education of my children). Would it be moral for me to hold a gun to my neighbor’s head until he coughed up the cash for me to send my child to private school? Of course not! And it is just as immoral to hold the gun of government to the heads of property owners and force them to pay for children to be able to go to public schools.

    I’m all in favor of education. But we need to get government (and theft) out of it.

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  31. “Science is based on collecting data to test theories. It is not based on faith.”

    But it is based on faith. By virtue of doing science, you have to make all kinds of assumptions (by faith). You assume that the world is rationally intelligible. You assume that it is reasonable to makes inferences from cause to effect. You assume that if all inputs are the same, then the output will be the same. I understand about control groups, statistical significance, etc., but the underlying assumptions is that if you could have the exact same inputs (which is impossible in things relating to people, because each person is different), the results would be the same. Those assumptions are believed *by faith*.

    Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc. could all do the same experiment and get the same result, but only because they share a common faith with regards to the nature and validity of the scientific method (ie. science is based on faith). I would further assert that only Christians have a rational basis for their faith, but that’s well beyond the scope of a blog comment. Anyone can do science, but only by either explicitly or implicitly (this is most often the case) agreeing with the Christian worldview. The atheist has no basis for assuming that future events will in any way be similar to past or present events (as is required for the scientific method). They assume that, but they have no justification for that belief (aka “faith commitment”).

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  32. TIA, just because something is immoral for an individual to do, it doesn’t mean that it is immoral for government to do it. If my banker steals from me, I cannot lock him in my basement dungeon. The government can however, investigate and charge and incarcerate if he is convicted.

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  33. Re: Bill Gothard Resigns from IBLP

    We have friends who use ATI curriculum. When we asked a week ago, they were very defensive. They said that most of the curriculum was written by others and BG only wrote a small part of it. True enough, and no doubt there are many good people in the ATI system. But the overall system is a problem. We know people who have been saved through Gothard’s seminar ministry. But we are also aware of many who have been abused.

    There are a lot of similarities between IBLP and the public school system.

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  34. Marsha,

    You are talking about a completely different situation than I was. You are switching categories. You are referring to government as an enforcer, which is what it should be. In my example, the government is the thief. Are you saying that theft is okay if the government does it? The government only has the right to deal with the bank thief because of your individual right to your money. Are you saying that it is immoral for you to try and get your money back from the bank thief?

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  35. Geez, TIA – the more you talk, the more outrageous the suggestions!! I’m finding it all rather amusing. . . (vigorous shaking of head). . .

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  36. Tia – I guess I see education in a bigger picture. These kids are citizens of our country and members of our community. Years down the road they will be the leaders and decision makers. I want them to be educated. Therefore, I believe that education is a public issue. We have a responsibility, as a community, to make sure that our kids are receiving an education.

    Our high school that my kids go to has the highest percentage of low-income kids in our school district. However, they have a decent graduation rate and have programs and many AP classes that send kids out to be career or college ready. If these parents, many who struggle to make enough money to rent a place to live and put food on the table, had to pay solely for their kid’s education, their kids would not be going to school.

    I agree that our current way of running public education is not the best. However, it is what our kids are working with at the moment and I truly believe that they are going to come out just fine. I’m curious to know if you have found a country that uses a model on non-governmental education and is successful with it.

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  37. If you believe that law enforcement is a valid function for government then taxes need to be collected to pay for police, prosecutors, judges, courthouses, prisons, and correction officers. So the issue for you is why the tax is being collected, not that taxes are immoral in general.

    I happen to believe that education is important for our society as a whole, regardless of whether I currently have school aged children (I don’t). I pay my school taxes cheerfully. In our democracy, this viewpoint has prevailed. You can and should try to elect legislators with your own viewpoint as part of the democratic process.

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  38. TIA,

    I understand your position in regards to funding education, and I respect that. You seem to me a very concerned and responsible person. I wish all parents were, but they’re not. Who looks after the rights of a child when the parents and the “system” fail?

    The reasons for my family’s current economic situation are complex, but my husband’s poor home education takes a lion’s share of the responsibility. My MIL’s minister admitted to her that most the kids in the “church” hadn’t even received a high school equivalent home education. Yet, my MIL says she did everything the “church” required her to do. In effect, neither side will accept any resposibility. Now my husband, myself, and our children are all reaping the consequences of their negligence. At present, I am still homeschooling my kids, because, had I enrolled them in school two years ago when we parted ways with said “church,” they would have been two to three years behind their peers. I do, however, face the possibility of having to enroll my kids in school so that I can work to help carry some of the financial burden. We certainly cannot afford private school.

    For 23 years I listened to said “church” trumpet the rights of parents to educate their kids. Who was making certain those kids were actually even getting a basic education? A responsible, caring, parent will do what’s necessary to educate their kids, whether by public school, private school, or home school. But, we can’t assume that all parents are going to be responsible. It’s a sticky mess.

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  39. Here’s another side of public schooling that I saw up close and personal. I volunteered at the school Kathi’s kids go to (we only met through the blog, not when I lived there). I saw the kids who would have slipped through the cracks. One case – a mother moved half-way across the country mid-school year to be with her boyfriend and left her teenager to live with friends. Other kids lived from house to house, with friends, aunts, etc, because their home life was tumultuous. I know this because I became sort of a substitute mom and heard their stories. Public school provided a relatively safe environment for them. It gave them opportunity to be with peers and get educated – an equal chance in getting in the work force that they would not have had because of irresponsible and bad parenting.

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  40. TIA, Don’t misunderstand me. I have a strong libertarian bent. I do not want God forced in classrooms everywhere. And a big reason is because we cannot be the city on hill or a light to the world when we are forcing our God onto others. Jesus understood this perfectly and it infuriated those zealots who were looking for a Messiah (Savior of Israel).. It is too big of a topic to get into here. But there is a lot of misunderstandings about Jesus’ composite society of believers and the “regnum”.

    And to add to that, I am not overly thrilled with some of the “doctrine” my kids are taught at a Christian school, either. They are there for different reasons mainly because our public school system is a mess and are mostly holding cells for very frustrated teachers.

    On another topic, I believe the only hope for education is some sort of voucher system with school choice. Let poor people have some choice. If you are realistic, you have to admit the government is going to be involved to some degree. Debating whether or not it should be at all is a moot point. We have too many years of it under our belt to even go down that road. The only way to make this happen in a way that the Feds do not exert total control over ALL schools is to totally abolish the Dept of Education and “standards” become the purview of each state. Let’s see some state competition for an educated/skilled workforce. And let’s put the responsibility back on to the parents. Why does our government assume people are so stupid?

    And before we get into the topic of poor ghetto kids, they are some of the sharpest kids around. Street smart. They can navigate the entire city by bus, they show up to school for breakfast, they sell drugs to have pocket money, etc, etc. The kids from the better off homes, forget their lunch and their textbooks and mommy drives it over for them AND they have allowance to buy pot. They would not know how find a bus route. And yes, I am generalizing but that has been some of my observations while working on some training projects in quite a few middle and high schools over the last 4 years.

    while I have a big libertarian bent, I also deeply care about people. My goal is for young people WHO CAN to become self sufficient. I don’t think the people telling them how bad off they are and they need government to survive– are helping them at all.

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  41. Julie Anne, you’d be amazed how many teachers (and I have met MANY) who are products of dysfunctional families. The all say the same thing – that public school was their ‘safe haven’; a place where they could relax and be just like everyone else. You can also bet that those same teachers can spot a troubled student a long ways away; in fact the school I teach in has a breakfast program (as do most of the schools in this area), free passes on the county bus, programs to assist students in extra-curricular activities, etc. to help these disadvantaged kids. You’d be amazed at the ways in which people in the system work to provide assistance (monetary and otherwise) to ALL students. As a result of the charity and goodness I see on a daily basis (at work), you can probably understand why I get upset when I see that system bad-mouthed. Although it’s true that there are certainly problems (as with any system); I certainly see overwhelming evidence that we are equipping our young people with all the needed skills to take them forward and help them become productive, healthy, contributing members of society.

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  42. TIA, How we need to think about taxes is “ROI”. Return on investment. Public education in my city costs 1.2 BILLION per year. That is twice the city’s budget. Think about that one.

    So how is this investment paying off? A large percentage of graduates need remedial education if they want to attend community college. The college loves this because they get paid, the student gets a loan and is in debt even though they could not make it through, have no credits and nothing to show for it. The schools are using 10 year old text books and their idea of using “technology” in the classroom is a power point.

    We get less out of students because our EXPECTATIONS are less than they used to be. We keep telling them how bad off they are. We keep taking their lunch to school when they forget it because they don’t like school lunches, etc, etc.

    Think of this. Not only should every student (who can) be able to read and write on a college prep level but they should also know how to write basic code. That is going to be a prerequisite in many areas of business. At some point, you will be thought to be ignorant if you cannot write basic code. Just as some are thought to be ignorant now who cannot use email. I can remember finding some papers in a trunk my grandad wrote in high school which was a rural high school in 1922. It was a paper analyzing Shakespeare’s Othello…written in French! The penmanship was impeccable, too.

    Our education system is so out of date it is ridiculous. Students learn differently now. The return on investment is NIL considering. But the administrators and those theorists who know best are making 6 figures. (ONe of the shocking things for me was to see how many people involved at high levels in state education/federal higher education who are making the rules and standards—-have no children!

    We are not getting our money’s worth if we expect the generations coming up to pay their share of SS taxes.. Public educatfion is more elistist than people think but not at the “school” level.

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  43. Without well funded public education, we would have more people without the ability to make a living, more poor people trying to get food to feed themselves and their inevitable children. And given the choice between starvation and crime, I know what a loving parent will do. So defunding the public schools would result in more tax dollars for more prisons. It costs much less to educate a child in the public school system than to house that child as either a juvenile or adult offender, plus the loss to the community, and the cost of courts, prosecutors, and law enforcement. Education is a much less expensive means for the society to accomplish the goals of “promoting the general welfare” as stated in our founding documents as a country.

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  44. “*All* schools teach religion. I know that some education is considered “non-religious” according to American legal definitions, but the fact is that education is inherently religious. It is based on some view of ultimate reality, either explicit or (more often) implicit. All education is based on one faith or another. Even science is impossible apart from faith. It rests upon assumptions which ultimately are believed by faith.”

    TIA, Just some food for thought. Christianity is NOT a religion. That is starting with a fundamentally wrong premise. It negates everything Jesus Christ was about. Christianity is a “relationship” of reconciliation with Yahweh, the one True God through Jesus Christ, God in the Flesh..

    Christianity is not a simple “set of beliefs”. It is a relationship with a LIVING SAVIOR that shines through in our every day lives.

    We tend to want to teach a “syllabus” Jesus of the creeds which as right “beliefs” but it misses out on a real intimate relationship with our Savior and our kingdom living here and now.

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  45. “Without well funded public education, we would have more people without the ability to make a living, more poor people trying to get food to feed themselves and their inevitable children. And given the choice between starvation and crime, I know what a loving parent will do. So defunding the public schools would result in more tax dollars for more prisons. It costs much less to educate a child in the public school system than to house that child as either a juvenile or adult offender, plus the loss to the community, and the cost of courts, prosecutors, and law enforcement. Education is a much less expensive means for the society to accomplish the goals of “promoting the general welfare” as stated in our founding documents as a country.”

    ALL people, no matter what their economic status, should have a choice in education. Vouchers would not have to defund public schools unless they are so bad parents would never choose them. In fact, my guess is many public schools in some areas would become the choice for many parents.

    Promoting the general welfare does not mean the citizen cannot have a choice.

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  46. Does anyone know why so many female teachers, some middle-aged, are having sexual contact with their students? I can’t read Daily Mail without seeing a new story about this phenomenon.

    Re: Gothard: He is a common denominator for several spiritually abusive groups. Does anyone know where he got his ideas? Please bear with me if you have seen me ask this question under other posts. I just think that Gothard had to get his ideas from somewhere.

    TIA and others: the government-funded schools have loads of problems. I agree that a religiously/ideologically neutral curriculum is impossible.

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  47. “Does anyone know why so many female teachers, some middle-aged, are having sexual contact with their students? I can’t read Daily Mail without seeing a new story about this phenomenon.”

    Yes, I know. Every week it seems there’s another story like this in the news. I know some homeschooling fathers from my former “church” who molested their own daughters, and one married father of two who molested his niece. These stories just don’t make the national news.

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  48. “Does anyone know why so many female teachers, some middle-aged, are having sexual contact with their students? I can’t read Daily Mail without seeing a new story about this phenomenon.”

    As opposed to male teachers? The ratio is still much smaller except it tends to be more sensational to the press. They are animals and deserve to be locked up. So why aren’t they as a rule? The one caught here has her kids in a “Christian school”, attends church and was put on leave and terminiated. She will get her pension because she taught long enough to be vested. Same for many male teachers. Or they become ‘saved” after being caught.

    “Re: Gothard: He is a common denominator for several spiritually abusive groups. Does anyone know where he got his ideas? Please bear with me if you have seen me ask this question under other posts. I just think that Gothard had to get his ideas from somewhere.”

    Satan? :o)

    “TIA and others: the government-funded schools have loads of problems. I agree that a religiously/ideologically neutral curriculum is impossible.”

    All “ideology” is “religous” because it is a “set of beliefs”. Athiests are “relgious”, too. Marxists are religious. Socialists are religious. Free market captialists are religious. They have a set of beleifs on how things should work. And it is good and right we debate the merit of the beliefs. I happen to think the relgion that gives us humans as much choice, freedom and responsibility is best.

    Guys, I really have a heart for this. Christianity is NOT a religion. It is a relationship. It is much more than a set of beliefs (the demons believe and tremble). It is active and real. It changes us. It is a pure love relationship with a LIVING SAVIOR that we abide in. Who lives in us. (that does not make us doormats, or smiley face fakes, or those who follow human guru’s either)

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  49. Re: female teachers having sex with students.

    I am not at all surprised. As I’ve mentioned before, this is accepted at teachers’ colleges. Yes, they teach in class that it is wrong, but they still credential students who think it is okay. Their actions speak louder than their words.

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  50. Some teachers have sex with their students. Some homeschool parents have sex with their children or other’s children. I’m afraid this is one area where neither side is going to trump the other.

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  51. Keith, the articles appear because people read them. This ‘appears’ to be something new and people look at the pictures of the women, some quite attractive, some married, and wonder why they are resorting to having sex with minors (with the false assumption that targeting minors wouldn’t be those women’s first choice).

    What we don’t know us whether this is a new phenomenon. Some crimes are, like women abducting and killing another woman in late pregnancy to take the baby and pretend to have given birth. But some crimes have always existed and been covered up. Did the same percentage of women teachers do this in the past and was it overlooked by people thinking that the male victim had ‘gotten lucky’? Are we now seeing arrests because we now understand that adults exploiting children and teens for sex is a damaging betrayal, regardless of gender? I don’t know.

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  52. Sunday schools were initially started (by Christians) to teach basic skills to poor, uneducated youths. There is no reason (apart from government intervention) that such would not happen again if public schools were closed down. As it is, many individuals and companies invest in education because it is in their best interests. Such investments would only increase if public schools (and the taxes associated with them) were abolished.

    As it is, charter schools prove that the existing public school system is wasteful. How is it that charter schools and private schools can provide better education than public schools at lower costs? Because they have financial incentives to do so. This is similar to the case of USPS vs. UPS/FedEx. Only the government can lose money on a monopoly business!

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  53. Yes, sex with students is definitely not limited to male/female, public school/private school/homeschool. It’s a big problem all around.

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  54. Keith, I don’t know where Gothard got all if his ideas, but Recovering Grace presents some persuasive evidence that some of them such as ‘giving a good report/the defilement of listening to an evil report’ and ‘rediscovering a forgotten truth’ (where he essentially argues for covering up sin in the church) are designed to cover up his own wrong doing.

    The second teaching is particularly fascinating because he gives an example of a mother finding a suggestive letter to her teen son from the young pastor’s wife. He says that she should only speak to her son, not her own husband, the pastor, the youth pastor or the youth pastor’s wife. Mind boggling!!!

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  55. Marsha: Thanks for the heads up re: Gothard. I find him extremely creepy. “Rediscovering a lost truth…” and similar notions are always a red flag for me.

    Re: Female School teachers, my view is that the prevalence has increased. The “why” is a mystery. i am sure it has always occurred.

    As i read more about these spiritual abusers/sexual abusers it is frankly depressing. Stick a fork in us on the Christian side of the alleged culture war. We are done, and to a crisp. Subverted from within the ranks, relentlessly attacked from outside them. Just about every institution I have believed in and supported is gone. The social left and the secularisers have won almost every battle. Sexual, political and moral chaos reigns.

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  56. “Stick a fork in us on the Christian side of the alleged culture war. We are done, and to a crisp. Subverted from within the ranks, relentlessly attacked from outside them. Just about every institution I have believed in and supported is gone.”

    Welcome to SSB! 🙂
    Seriously, the reason many of us are here is because of our bad experience within the ranks of Christianity. Some leave the faith altogether, some leave the institutional church, and some are just speaking out about their experiences. All is not lost. Blogs like this are having an impact where change is necessary.

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  57. “It costs much less to educate a child in the public school system than to house that child as either a juvenile or adult offender, plus the loss to the community, and the cost of courts, prosecutors, and law enforcement.”

    True. But why are we housing criminals anyway? That is not a biblical justice system. Biblical justice requires restitution. If anything, criminals should be the ones funding prisons, not law abiding citizens. Prisons are another government racket. Follow the money!

    https://www.aclu.org/blog/prisoners-rights-criminal-law-reform/happy-birthday-corrections-corporation-america-thirty
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2013/12/joe-wright/a-predatory-system-invested-in-slavery/

    Lest you all think I am hardhearted, please know that I care very much for children and their education. I would not be at all opposed to voluntarily supporting some sort of “common school” for children whose parents cannot afford to pay for a basic education themselves. In fact, I already do exactly that…for a child in South America! But it is a basic education that I agree with, one that includes God.

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  58. Beenthere: I have had a mostly positive experience within Christianity. i have been a Lutheran in a Presbyterian church for years, because there are no LCMS or WELS churches where I live.

    I won’t leave Christianity. It is not Jesus’ fault that things are the way they are. But i think I will take a break from these blogs. Despair is not my strong suit.

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  59. “But i think I will take a break from these blogs. Despair is not my strong suit.”

    It’s not really my strong suit either. I just wasn’t given much of a choice. Now I have to work through these things.
    Thank you for the conversation. I appreciate your willingness to hear our stories.

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  60. Keith, I suspect you are right about an increase in female teacher sexual abuse of students. I have a theory about that. I think that the causes of a sexual interest in children (pedophilia) and one in minor teens (ephebophila) are very different. I think that pedophiles are wired differently whereas ephebophiles start out normally and fail to develop. Young people go through puberty at much earlier ages than say a century ago at because of improved nutrition (although hormones in meat may have some role these days). I think some people have always gotten stuck in the period where their sexuality really begins to develop but now it isn’t at or even close to adulthood, it is years before. If you listen to some of these teachers in interviews, they sound exactly like adolescent girls, talking about how the boy was the first one to indicate that he ‘liked’ her and talking about themselves as a girlfriend, using early teen slang, etc. I’ve heard interviews with male teachers that sound similar, talking about true love, soulmates, etc. They don’t seem to have matured much beyond fifteen.

    I suspect Gothard’s problem is that he never developed beyond adolescent sexuality either.

    Of course there are also men who exploit adolescent girls through power differentials not because they prefer adolescents to adult women ( they aren’t ephebophiles) but because they are opportunistic predators in a position to find vulnerable girls. This doesn’t seem to be the situation with the female teachers because they have easier access to adult men; female abusers seem to fall into the ephebophile category almost exclusively.

    This is just my theory; more data is needed!

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  61. Marsha: That is an interesting theory. I had never thought about the way the Defendants in these cases speak.

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  62. There are many reasons to homeschool.

    Personally my experience in public schools varied from horrible and abusive to merely acceptable. If your experience is different I am glad for you. I am trying to avoid the horrible and surge past the average that I experienced.

    I have one child that is special needs at the moment (severe dyslexia) and two that are exceptional. It has been a blessing to be able contour the curriculum to my children’s needs.

    Just because we homeschool does not mean that we are shutting out the world. My children play with neighbors and are on community sports teams.

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  63. Christie, as I repeat often, the fringe gives everyone else a bad name.

    People often also miss the concept that each child is unique, and they may do well in one setting but not in another.

    After public school, I loved the ACE curriculum for high school, but it prepared me very well for what I wanted to do. My husband started out in chemical engineering and had slots offered to him from Ivy League schools in his field. That NEVER would have happened for him if he had not attended public school. His parents didn’t have the resources or the ability to send him to private school, and they didn’t have the expertise to foster him at home at a level that he needed and in the area of his interest. It was the best choice for him, but not for me.

    I would venture that if your hit the ceiling on what you could do within homeschooling, you would be duty bound to seek out another choice to meet the needs of your children, either due to style or content. Many people are not willing to do this.

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  64. You’re right, Christie. There are some homeschooling parents who isolate their children, others do a good job of balancing. There’s such a wide spectrum of homeschoolers.

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  65. “There are some homeschooling parents who isolate their children, others do a good job of balancing.”

    The same is true of many public school (and private school) students. Some are very isolated/sheltered from the real world, but perhaps in different ways than homeschoolers. They are certainly isolated from Christian viewpoints on many issues (not necessarily in all or even most cases, but certainly in significant numbers).

    One example of public school “isolation” is the higher education bubble. If students had truly received a good basic education, would so many of them have taken on massive student debt only to graduate without any job prospects? I don’t think so. But that is what the system encourages. I’m not saying that higher education is wrong. Just that many public school students have blindly followed a system without being exposed to other options.

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  66. Julie Anne:

    “And I can imagine him singing with them, too 🙂 I wonder if He was tenor or bass?”

    According to “Jesus Christ Superstar”, Jesus sang soprano. 😛

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  67. Posted elsewhere *full disclaimer* I am a patriarchist. That being said, public school is not a sin. We homeschool because we believe we can best educate our children accademically and religiously. However we send them to public preschool and kindergarten. The sin is not the nature of your educational plan. The sin is not having one.

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