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The Christian community has done a very poor job of treating women with respect. Some husbands have resorted to treating their wives as objects and even practice “domestic discipline” or wife spanking. This is wrong.
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Men treating women/wives as objects they own
I’ve been thinking about how many men – men I don’t even know – have asked me who gave me permission to say what I do on Twitter or on my blog. I even tweeted about this earlier:
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Question: How many of you women tweeters & bloggers got your husband’s or pastor’s permission to “speak out?” I get this question a lot!
— Julie Anne (@DefendTheSheep) October 9, 2013
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Where do some men get the idea that they get to own women and tell them what they can say, do, think, believe, etc? Many of you have seen men ask me these questions. In my former circles, I didn’t really question it much as it didn’t offend me. It was normal for women to be subservient. If men treated women poorly, we were taught to suck it up and pray for our husbands – that God would change his heart. Their hearts might never change, but we were enduring hardship and that was noble for a godly women. Nobody held the husbands accountable, but if wives complained about our husbands, we were told that we were in sin for complaining, not being respectful.
In March of 2012 I contacted Grace Community Church to seek their help on my abusive church situation in which I had become aware that my pastor was possibly going to sue me. Two of the pastors asked where my husband was – and why wasn’t I tending the home, etc? I remember thinking, “where in the world did that comment come from?” At the time, I really wasn’t looking at it as a slam to the value of womanhood, but a diversion tactic to avoid dealing with the issue of spiritual abuse. Now I know better after seeing this similar pattern time and again in specific Christian circles.
Now, after observing patterns for the last 18 months, I don’t believe the leaders at Grace Community Church would have ever done anything regarding the spiritual abuse at my former church because I, a woman, was speaking out about it. In their minds, it was not my place to speak out. If there was a problem in our church, my husband should have been the one doing the speaking. I believe I was completely discredited by virtue of my sex: being a woman.
This is one example of women not being respected and allowed to use her individual voice. Not long after I published the above tweet, a shocking story came up on my Twitter feed, and it shows an even bigger problem of ownership and degradation of women:
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Husband beats wife with paddle for disrespecting him and not addressing him as “sir” in front of their kids
An Ephrata man was jailed Wednesday for beating his wife when she didn’t address him as “Sir” in front of their kids.
This barbarian treated his own beloved wife on a completely different level from parent. She was an object, perhaps even “lower” than their children.
Dan Kirby Kopp, 49, routinely beat his wife with a wooden paddle or his hand as a way of disciplining her for not showing proper “respect,” according to investigators.
Right, because it’s his job to “discipline” his wife. Who gets to discipline him when he gets out of line?
According to charging documents, Kopp would take his wife over his knee and spank her, so she would “learn a lesson.”
What respect is he showing his wife in spanking her? Oh, I know, he thinks he is showing her respect because he loves her enough to discipline her – to show her “tough love.” The article does not mention this couple’s religious background, but does give a clue further down about “demons,” so I suspect there is some sort of religious belief in the home. Is it because he’s the spiritual head of the home and he feels he is responsible before God to make sure his family is in order that he behaves this way? If so, I know these types.
Thank God this woman had the moxie to videotape this spanking episode or she would probably still be in this abusive hell hole.
The wife had enough by October 2012 and went to Ephrata police to report the abuse.
She told officers Kopp — who is 6-foot-5, 230 pounds — abused her as a “means of disciplining her for disobedience to him for undermining his parenting,” an affidavit shows.
The wife used an iPhone to videotape a Sept. 22, 2012 beating, which was shown to jurors.
The video shows Kopp beating the woman with a paddle for not addressing him with, “Yes, sir.”
Kopp also warned his wife that next time he would “cast demons out of her,” charging documents show. (Lancaster Online: Ephrata man convicted of beating wife with wooden paddle for refusing to call him “sir”)
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Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washingwith water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. Ephesians 5:25-30
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I haven’t written any articles on Christian domestic discipline before. However, since the blog’s inception, I have read personal reports from abused wives, friends of abused wives, and have spoken on the phone with pastors who have confirmed that domestic discipline is common practice in some Christian circles. Yes, I said common practice. One pastor contacted me to share his growing concern and personal observations in his denomination. He told me that one rarely finds the practice of “domestic discipline” written in literature, but its practice is spread from pastors to other pastors and then to the men of the church in mens’ meetings. This is despicable. Women are not objects. They are created in God’s image.
About a year ago, I had been researching this subject for hours over several weeks, but had to limit my time due to physical abuse triggers. I think I am over that now. Now I am at the angry stage. I will be speaking out very loudly against it. I am sick and tired of the “Christian” church allowing men to treat women as scum of the earth.
Whenever someone questions me again for speaking out and puts me or another woman on my blog down as trash, I will offer the man an opportunity to apologize and take it back. If he doesn’t, I will make his comment more public so that all can see. I am fed up with this atrocity. This is not godly. It is not loving. It is abuse of God’s creation.
If you are being spanked by your husband, your husband is abusing you. Your husband has no right to inflict physical violence on your body. If you are not consenting to the spanking, he is committing assault and battery and is demonstrating criminal behavior. If you are not in a safe place, seek a domestic violence hotline and call for help. Do NOT under any circumstance go to your church to report, as “domestic discipline” might be the normal practice there and your husband will likely be defended. I have read countless stories of women being charged as the sinner for not submitting, not respecting, not loving their husbands by their pastor. Some women have been put on church trials, placed in church discipline, or even been excommunicated for not remaining quiet and “submissive.”
God does not expect any wife to submit to abuse. There are many people who are going through what you are going through. You can get help and get free from your abusive situation. Feel free to comment here using a pseudonym, contact me via e-mail (spiritualsb @ gmail.com) or ask to join the private forum if you like. There are many here who would like to come alongside you and encourage you, some having personally experienced various forms of abuse in their own marriages. A couple of our regular readers have ministry work with domestic violence survivors. You don’t need to do this by yourself.
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PS – A special thanks to the true manly men who have made a point of calling out the misogynistic behavior I had been blinded to for so many years.
Spiritual Sounding Board 
OMG. I can hardly even think of what to say right now. This is assault. Assault! Not discipline. God help every woman trapped in a place of subjection to this. There is nothing Christian about this.
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Be careful with your comment section for a couple of days. Those loons will come and post now about this issue. They have tried at my blog, and it never saw the light of day. I monitor mostly for spam, but I do NOT tolerate that crowd at all.
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Oh they can come and post, Hannah, and leave a permanent record for all to see and I may help spotlight their behavior on Twitter (cuz I’m like that).
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And what does she get to do to him to punish him for breaking the biblical command to love his wife?
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Don’t know if this has any bearing on it, but Ephrata’s in SE Pennsylvania between Lancaster and the PA Turnpike. Pennsylvania Dutch & Amish country.
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Just think guys, this used to NOT be against the law. Police looked the other way when it came to domestic assault. Only her husband could get by with beating her up. That changed with evil feminism. :o)
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Then you have this:
source
So do these husbands go shopping with their wives and pick out dresses for them?
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I found this yesterday. http://joyfulhelpmeetathome.blogspot.ca/2008/07/king-of-castle.html This poor woman has such a wrong idea of marriage. Her husband is “king” and she is “a subject”. He yells at her and is controlling and she thinks she has to take it. So sad. There are the woman who stand up and say “This is wrong and I’m not taking this anymore!” and then there are this kind. What can someone do when a woman thinks this way?
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Thank you for speaking out against this abuse, JA! It is time for silence to end on how harmful patriarchy has become. This form of “religion” is not any different from other restrictive religious that abuse religion. Such a tragedy.
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Then we have the stand your ground laws, so after being beaten a number of times, she can wait by the door with his gun and return the ammunition to him, at high velocity.
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Hopefully this man is ordered to stay away from his wife and children. I also hope his case is seen by by a female judge 🙂 I wonder what he will have to say for himself.
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I just came to this blog and this article caught my attention. I have heard often about so called “Christian discipline, aka wife spanking”. More and more women need to speak out about the abuse they have suffered under the authority of,, so called, Christian men. Reading this article reminded me of when my senior pastor said to me “you’re an out of control female who doesn’t know how to submit because you aren’t married.” I was on staff at the time and often endured pastors saying this kind of thing to me as a way to manipulate and control me. They used twisted scripture to justify their abuse. It took me awhile to come out of it and now I’m just plain ticked off by it all! Thank you for your blog.
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We have many readers at our blog who report that their abusive husbands beat (i.e. assaulted) them under the scripture-twisted pretext of a husband’s right and responsibility to lead his wife. It’s wicked. These guys are abusing their wives using the name of Christ, which is blasphemy. Think about it. Using the name of Christ and His Word to justify wickedness is using the name of God in vain, which is B.L.A.S.P.H.E.M.Y.
I don’t like to get into the debate about whether and to what degree a husband is responsible for leading his wife, but it’s clear that if a husband *has* such a responsibility it is to lead her in a God-glorifying direction, not a devil-glorifying direction. And assaulting your wife is following the devil’s ways, not God’s.
The mind games these guys play are incredible. They will twist scriptures to justify themselves till the cows come home.
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Every time I hear about “Christian Domestic Discipline”, I think of “Erotic Flagellation — KINK OF ENGLAND!” with a Christianese coat of paint. (Except in this case only the one doin’ the whuppin’ is getting off on it.)
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According to my Jewish sources, THAT is the original meaning of the Third(?) Commandment. Convenient how it was redefined into cussing and cussing only; eh, My Dear Wormwood?
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This is my second request to no longer receive anything from spiritual sounding board. Hope this is the last request. Thank you.
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Headless Unicorn Guy, I’m a bit confused why you felt such a comment was necessary.It sounds like you are making a joke about the abuse of women.
“Every time I hear about “Christian Domestic Discipline”, I think of “Erotic Flagellation — KINK OF ENGLAND!” with a Christianese coat of paint. (Except in this case only the one doin’ the whuppin’ is getting off on it.)”
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Hi Linda: I unclear on what you are talking about. Perhaps you commented at one point and checked the box to receive emails for future posts or comments. If this is what you are referring to, please check the e-mail for instructions on how to stop subscribing. I am unable to do that. Sorry! ~ja
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Well, if I got mad at just reading what you typed, I can only imagine what it must have been like working in that oppressive environment. How absolutely demoralizing and demeaning and yes, abusive. So sorry to hear you went through that.
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Thank you Julie Anne. I failed to mention that the church in question is a California Calvary Chapel.
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This guy got caught and now the public knows about it. What about the ones who think they are actually being ‘spiritual leaders’ of their families and are getting away with such torment! How repugnant. Maybe the internet can be a way of setting the captives free by providing truth, light, and support for women subjected to such horrific dishonor and trauma. Marriage this is not!
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Thanks, lindaj, for mentioning that. We seem to get a lot of abuse stories from the Calvinist camp. but abuse is everywhere, sadly.
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“Maybe the internet can be a way of setting the captives free by providing truth, light, and support for women subjected to such horrific dishonor and trauma. ”
Amen, Barb. I do hope that women will find this article and realize they can be free from the prison which is often in their own home.
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He looks like a tough guy. I wouldn’t feel the least bit guilty for kicking his ass, or at least trying.
Barb said, “This guy got caught and now the public knows about it. What about the ones who think they are actually being ‘spiritual leaders’ of their families and are getting away with such torment!”
Yes, it happens all the time. My step-dad beat us routinely and much more severely than what this guy did to a grown women with a paddle and his hand. It’s very common in Christian Fundamentalist circles and it’s reframed and spun as “Godly discipline” or “corporal punishment”…when in fact is child abuse or spousal abuse and assault.
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You are so right, Alex. It’s disgusting behavior.
Check out this article someone sent me. It shows “Kirby’s” response to the verdict that he posted on Facebook. I tried to find his Facebook account, but he has probably made it private since it went more public:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2451647/Dan-Kirby-Kopp-beat-wife-spoon.html
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More that it sounds like a Christianese cover for the guy to indulge in his kink. I’ve mentioned such things as “Domestic Discipline” to guys well outside anything Christian; when I describe it to them, the usual response is “There’s a guy who’s into S&M but won’t admit to it.”
And we’ve seen sexual kinks with Christian coats of paint before — remember Mark Driscoll? Nowhere do we tempt so successfully as at the very foot of the altar, My Dear Wormwood.
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Sounds like a guy who just likes to smack his woman and/or kids around and justifies it with long prayers in Christianese.
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“Spiritual Leadership…”
“Godly Discipline…”
Remember my letter to you regarding semantics, My Dear Wormwood? About redefining words into their “diabolical meanings”?
— Your Ravenously Affectionate Uncle,
Screwtape
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It’s clear to most this guy is a control freak & needs corrective help besides punishment of jail time. Whether he’ll take the help if he get’s it, I don’t know.
This post got me thinking about:
Husbands who make important decisions then tell their wives later or don’t bother to tell their wives at all as a godly habit.
Husbands who “punish” their wives with words but never with a wooden spoon.
Husbands who implement 50’s roles as strict Christian rules in the home.
These unloving actions certainly are not gender specific. However, many churches are biased on which gender gets a pat on the back & which gets slammed for these types of actions.
While the situation in this post is probably more prevalent inside churches than we realize, the situations listed above are quite common. What about these women?
I have friends that disagree silently with their husbands because they are afraid to say anything. They were told they will loose or be outside their husband’s “covering”. One friend told me “the secret to marriage” when I got married long ago that an old church lady gave her: Even if her husband does something wrong, her obedience will be honored & she will be covered. She was going to a Pentecostal Church, not Calvinist Church, BTW. 🙂
Basically, my husband would be my god, I wouldn’t need to think anymore! Of course, that didn’t make sense to me. Wouldn’t that be like cutting off the right half of your own body & expect to function better? I’ve noticed, the “clean up in aisle 3” announcement is a usual foregone conclusion.
Think about what this says in regards to the value of women. Don’t we each have unique, individual gifts inside the body of Christ as well as inside of marriage?
IMO, true appreciation & utilization of diversity unites. Most of what we hear about diversity is prettied up bogus lip service when it comes to gender, IMO.
Religious leaders are cashing in on “clean up in aisle 3” with books that further divide the body of Christ. The solution is to follow Jesus Christ & love like Christ. ONE book is all we need.
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P.S. My husband & I were work associates & he knew full well my opinions, convictions, faith before he ever asked to go out on a date. Why he wanted to date, let alone marry me, I’ll never know. 😉
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I came to the conclusion that comp doctrine attracts the creeps/abusers/narcissists enmasse. Are there decent men who are comps? Yes, of course. But the doctrine attracts those who need to feel important and have control. it feeds their lack of character. The doctrine gives them cover for a long time because the focus (which is wrong) is on the woman’s submission to him as the leader.
It totally ignores the true meaning of “one flesh union”.
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–
“It’s not that power tends to corrupt so much as power tends to attract the already-corrupted and the easily-corruptible.” — Frank Herbert
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This is so strange I wonder if the whole story is actually out. Can’t quite believe Kirby is as the article says . I guess I am surprised sometimes at what police work finds out about people.
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Bob,
The police did investigate. A jury convicted Kirby. I hope you’re not implying that his wife must have somehow deserved the assault. According to the news article, http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/903995_Ephrata-man-convicted-of-beating-wife-with-wooden-paddle-for-refusing-to-call-him–sir-.html he was convicted “of misdemeanor stalking and harassment” which is “more serious than simple assault.” It “regards a cycle of abuse and intimidation.”
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Hopefully more like “The Weirdness Factor was just so high there must be something more to it than what got in the media.”
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“P.S. My husband & I were work associates & he knew full well my opinions, convictions, faith before he ever asked to go out on a date. Why he wanted to date, let alone marry me, I’ll never know. 😉 ”
Because he is a secure man who wanted a smart, competent and interesting wife.
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Disgusting. These misogynists can call their domestic violence “discipline”, but it’s still abusive and immoral. No husband should demand subservience from his wife, and he should NEVER use violence against her. I’m glad people are bringing this to light and speaking out.
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I refuse to have anykind of fellowship with people like this.
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There is NO justification for this type of behavior among men who name the name of Christ. There is NO justification for this type of behavior in the Scripture.
As a pastor in the “Bible Belt” I dealt with this mentality (low) repeatedly as women who had been told to “submit” to husbands who beat them (and their children) because “God hates divorce.”
It is true that God does indeed hate divorce; however, violence against His children is violence against Him. Jesus asked Saul on the road to Damascus, “Why to you persecute Me?” (Acts 9:4).
MEN: If you physically or psychologically abuse your wife, it is the same as if you are doing so to Jesus.
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“As a pastor in the “Bible Belt” I dealt with this mentality (low) repeatedly as women who had been told to “submit” to husbands who beat them (and their children) because “God hates divorce.”
So far as I’m concerned, if a man is beating his wife and/or children, there is no marriage. As a de facto matter, and in God’s eyes, the abuser has already caused the divorce to take place. The wife can do nothing to save the “marriage” because there is no marriage to save. I am convinced that, in such situations, Scripture permits the abused wife to choose whether and when to seek legal recognition of the de facto divorce, although I would encourage her to give first consideration to protecting her children. I suggest that, even in cases where the wife (or girlfriend) is willing to endure, for whatever reasons, she does the abuser no good by staying. She only makes it possible for the abuser to perpetrate more and more evil, thereby heaping up more and more judgment on himself.
If a woman makes a decision to remove herself and any children from an abusive man, she had best not turn to her church for support. There is just too much risk that she will be subjected to even more abuse by “pastors” who are entrenched in a patriarchal, misogynistic reading of Scripture. It is much better to first turn to a non-religious agency or organization serving the needs of domestic violence victims. 1−800−799−7233 is a national domestic violence hotline. I understand that if you call this number, you will be placed in contact with a domestic violence organization close to where you live. Even though I am an attorney, I recommend contacting a DV organization first. While lawyers and courts can help, they are only one piece of the overall puzzle. A DV agency should be able to help in all aspects of resolving a DV situation, including development of a safety plan.
How sad that, with very few happy exceptions, victims are better off turning to the so-called world system than to the supposed leaders of God’s own people. How sad that, in so many instances, the “church” only compounds the evil.
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In my previous comment I recommended that domestic violence victims call a DV agency first. Of course, this is just a general consideration. Sometimes the first step is to call 911. I expect a DV counselor would say that, to avoid immediate retaliation, you should remove yourself from the situation first, if you can do so. There may not be any choice but to call during an ongoing incident. I understand that in many jurisdictions simply placing the call, even if the abuser interrupts it, will be enough. Where I live 911 operators have access to the geographical location of the phone number from which you call, and law enforcement will be dispatched even if an abuser manages to interrupt the 911 call.
I do ask that, if anybody with experience in DV counseling thinks I am giving bad advice, please, please jump in.
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Gary W. said:
Gary, before having this blog, I never would have believed your statement to be true. I think you are right.
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Gary – I have had the occasion to talk with Pastor Jeff Crippen a number of times. He can tell you many stories of women who go to church for help and you are right, they become re-victimized because the church is ill-equipped to handle this issue. Essentially what happens is the wife is first a victim by her husband and then by her church leaders (spiritual abuse). Can you see why so many people leave churches?
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Yes, Julie Anne, I can see why so many people leave churches. Here again I need to be careful to acknowledge that there are some fellowships that get it right. For the most part, however, I am inclined to actively advocate that people leave what goes by the name of “church.”
Unfortunately, where “church” is concerned, there may be no more effective call to repentance than for congregants to withdraw both themselves and their money. I believe there is some evidence that this works. When I was much younger, I removed myself from the United Methodist Church, the “church” into which I was born. More recently, I have heard United Methodist ministers observe that it was the flight of congregants that compelled UMC leadership to attempt to return to what is true. I believe that this goes far to explain why, if I wish to hear Jesus preached in my small town by a minister who actually knows Him, I must attend the Methodist Church.
“Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, ‘Come out of her, my people,
lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Pay her back as she herself has paid back others, and repay her double for her deeds; mix a double portion for her in the cup she mixed.’ ” (Revelation 18:4-6, ESV)
If I am correct in thinking these verses apply, at least in part, to institutionalized “Christianity,” the stakes could hardly be higher when it comes to the question of staying or leaving.
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Lydia said,
I apologize in advance for the length of this post. 🙂
I know I’ve said this before on this blog and over at TWW, but I think it is good to repeat it on different threads every so often.
I think what you said is true, but another consideration, to look at it from another perspective…
Having come from a family where my mother (who was a very devout Christian) was codependent (in part because she had an alcoholic father who was abusive), and she raised me to be codependent, I think some women end up in poor relationships because they don’t know any better, because they ended up codependent for one reason or another.
Codependent women have a host of reasons for why they are usually attracted to, or end up with, abusive men.
One reason is they have poor boundaries and are afraid to stand up for themselves and to say “no” to people.
They believe standing up for themselves or saying “no” is selfish, and if they are a Christian woman, they have been taught in numerous sermons and Christian culture that nice, loving Christian women never insist on their own way, or put their own safety or needs above that of anyone else.
Codependent women believe other people’s needs and feelings are more important than their own – even if someone is being rude or abusive to them, they feel it is wrong to call the person out on their poor behavior or to end the relationship.
Codependent women also don’t make decisions for themselves, or find it very hard to do.
Codependent women generally gravitate towards in-charge, in- control type men (or female friends who are like that), and unfortunately, people who are only too happy to make decisions for you, who enjoy being in control all the time, are usually selfish and/or abusive and they look for people to abuse and to take advantage of.
A lot of biblical gender complementarianism fosters these very characteristics in women; it tells them to always put the man (usually husband) first; don’t stand up to the man; your feelings and considerations are not important; let the man make all final decisions in the relationship, etc.
Those are all hallmarks of codependency, but some Christians pass those things off (and to my horror, as someone who lived like this herself, until about two or three years ago) as being “biblical roles for women.” There ain’t nothing “biblical” about it. These traits open a woman up to be abused or used over her life.
Telling women they have to live under this type of role and mindset (e.g., be submissive at all times, self defense is wrong or un-Christian, having boundaries is wrong, etc) sets women up to be abused and to be targeted by con artists, abusive men, and narcissists – not just in marriages or dating, but in the school yard as a child, and in workplaces as an adult, and other areas of life.
I’ve never been married, so I’ve never had an abusive spouse, but during all my years as a codependent, I kept attracting bullies, or seflish, self absorbed people to myself, as a child and as an adult.
My ex fiance was very selfish and kept taking advantage of me financially. He never physically abused me, but there was a bit of emotional abuse going on.
As a kid and teenager, I was usually the first, or only person, in class singled out by bullies in my school years, even though I was shy, quiet, and never drew attention to myself. I never instigated the fights or bullying.
I had one job as an adult where the boss was a jerk to everyone, but my co workers noticed she (the boss) had it in for me the worst. The boss gave me more grief than anyone else at the office.
It took me years and years later to figure out why I was a magnet for bullies and jerks.
I came to figure out it was precisely the traits espoused under “biblical woman roles” rhetoric, that biblical gender complementarians say a woman should live by, which are the same ones secular Americans in the 1950s used to say women should model themselves after – e.g., always be kind, sweet, nurturing, passive, hold anger in, don’t speak up on your behalf, don’t be assertive, your needs don’t matter, always submit to the men in the room, etc.
Books I read in the last few years by Christian authors (and some Non Christian authors) who are psychiatrists and counselors confirm all that.
Those authors say being stereotypically “feminine” (living by “biblical womanhood” roles), ie, being unassertive, passive, sweet all the time, letting other people make decisions for you (including a husband, if you have one), not having boundaries, is guaranteed to attract jerks, users, abusers, and bullies.
However, (and this really steams me), a lot of women are taught to be that way (by churches or Christian culture), or end up codependent after having been neglected or abused in their childhoods by their families of origins. And the result is that it often causes them to drift towards selfish or abusive spouses (or friends, or places of employment).
Churches who teach biblical gender complementarianism or biblical womanhood (which is not, as they teach it, even biblical, what a misnomer!) keep such women trapped in this cycle by telling them it’s God’s plan or God’s will for them to be that way, or the Bible says they are to remain forever submissive, sweet, un-assertive, passive, to have no greater role in life than to be a wife and mother.
Many Christians, under “biblical gender complementarianism” or “biblical gender roles” teachings are perpetuating the very problems that cause women to be attracted to controlling men and keeping them stuck in abusive relationships and marriages. It’s really sickening.
On a final note, one thing that also bugs the crud out of me about gender complementarianism is that it neglects the never-married Christian woman who is over the age of 30 and who is childless.
Not that I want the gender complementarians to consider single women so that they can start placing limits on single women, as they already do on married ladies, but it’s just another instance of how conservative Christians are so mired in the “traditional family” and disparage singlehood, they can’t even be bothered to address gender roles for the never- married (or divorced or widowed) adults.
Pay attention to any blogs, articles, or debates with gender complementarians or that discuss the topic, and you will see that about 99% of the time, the only time they care a whit about a woman’s “role” is in regards to marriage and parenting (motherhood). Unmarried women do not usually even enter into the discussions about “gender roles.”
Any talk about a little girl’s roles in gender complementarian blogs and books is defined and argued on the basis of raising her to be a wife and mother one day.
Never is any consideration made that the girl in question may never marry and/or never have children, due to deliberate choice (which is fine, the Bible does not command anyone to marry and/or have children), or that little girl may never grow up to meet a compatible mate (which is what happened to me). Still other women are infertile and are unable to have a baby.
There’s an odd, laser like focus and pre-occupation on the female gender only in so far as marriage or motherhood goes. Nobody in Christendom seems to care or notice if you’ve reached your mid 30s or later and still have not married and never had children.
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What’s been coming to mind as I’ve read JAs posts is the “shoot the messenger” mentality. As Christians, we must guard & check ourselves against “shoot the messenger” thinking. It would serve us well to read each post with this in mind.
We shoot the messenger when:
We limit the messenger’s recall of events, request for help, or quiet their warning. How?
1. respond with a spot-light & sin-search in their own lives (all sin is the same),
2.say they are supposed to suffer,
3.say they are being vindictive,
4.say it is the wrong time (wait & pray for repentance, etc.)
Some pastors don’t want “secular” advice on abuse. Some (not all) seem to have a devalued view of counselors, abuse advocates, etc. – even if they are Christian. The reason given is that the Bible is everything we need. I think the related scripture is 2Peter1, not 100% sure. However, whichever scripture it is that’s quoted, it’s misinterpreted to mean all but scriptural knowledge is ignored. Wrong! We go to drs for health, police for crime, pilots to fly us. It is not sinful to do so. God gives brains & knowledge (what some call common knowledge) to solve problems, it’s not conditional or based on salvation. This is where pastors, denominations, laity go off track & get confused. If someone, no matter who they are, has a key to a door that needs to be opened, we don’t remain out in the cold because the person holding the key is unsaved. This is prideful thinking & keeps churches ill-equipped & a safe haven for abuse, IMO.
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Daisy,
Thanks for your comment above! Yes, comp doctrine fits perfectly with co dependency, too. You have no idea how many women I have told that being a Christian does not mean being a doormat. Being wise does not mean being a doormat nor is it mean. In fact, being a doormat only makes that person an accomplice to sin. They become enablers for sin. Not a Christian stance at all.
It really requires changing the way they think.
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Sad story.
I have gotten into intense discussions with several people whose children were shacking up.
One (Catholic) literally manipulated their daughter to marry someone she was being intimate with but who love her because their daughter wanted to live together.
The marriage is extremely toxic. (I counseled him to stop forcing them to get married but he was more concerned about appearances)
In a separate intense discussion with someone (Baptist) else, their son who is a professional was shacking up with his girl friend for several years and he was pressuring him to get married. (appearances) I told the parents if the kids don’t love each other you don’t want them to get married. He kept saying they were living in “sin” and I kept saying you don’t want them getting married if they don’t love each other.
It turned out shortly after, his son split up with his girlfriend as they ended up picking their careers over each other.
Lack of Bible knowledge being taught to all genders. Not enough of biblically sound pre-marriage counseling, May not be enough of biblically sound Preachers giving proper sound counseling.
Lack of compatibility is a remedy of mental and physical abuse not just to wives but husbands as well.
Too many incompatible couples getting married.
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monax, could you make a correction with the parents who manipulated their daughter to marry someone who didn’t love her. (made a typo..
Also I also failed to mention about the abusive husband in Julie Anne’s post, I fail to identify anything from that abusive husband of how he could’ve possibly loved his wife before they even got married.
Discussing child rearing in counseling before marriage may or may not have taken place, but the abuse is an indication he didn’t love her. He may be mentally disturbed and may need institutionalized counseling during his jail time..
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Mark,
I think you make a good point. I agree with you in that living together is not a good reason to get married in and of itself. I think marriage is pushed as a fix or solution (usually for appearances / when parents are embarrassed) when really the relationship as a whole needs a realistic review. If it’s right, then great, get married. f there is a big problem, marriage rarely is a good idea. The fix is to split.
The solution isn’t always marriage. The solution may be to walk away. I’ll probably take some flack for this, but that’s okay.
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A Mom,
Couples who live together who don’t love each and don’t marry, will more than likely end up splitting, which is better than going through a lengthy trauma of pain in a relationship that will end up in many cases of mental or physical abuse before they divorce.
For the abuser the punishment needs to be harsh otherwise we are saying that’s OK.
Not sure why you would get flack. The core reason why couples should get married is Love, not Intimacy,
Truthfully when moral issues of intimacy arise it has been a stumbling block for churches. But truth be told, if you don’t. love the person or the person doesn’t love you but you choose to be intimate and you don’t want to get pregnant then couples who enter that lifestyle better be guided into taking birth control measures.
Intimacy or simply liking someone is the worst reason to get married but i’m sure in many cases through moral pressure of family, church. convenience or pregnancy, couples end up getting married when they shouldn’t.
I think many who are intimate confuse lust and love.
You don’t need a marriage license to be intimate if you don’t love the person you are intimate with;
I think it should be part of the core in Church Pre-Marriage counseling, is the emphasis to avoid getting married if you don’t love the person, you love being intimate with.
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Daisy, I am learning so much from your latest comment. Wow. That was me in college – very codependent for various reasons but mainly just because I was so sick and people gladly took advantage of me. I also keep reminding myself that my salvation is NOT dependent on my ability/choice to have children. I have received so much grief from my family due to my decision not to bear children. Pregnancy could take my life or best case scenario leave me permanently wheelchair bound. I will not take that risk despite the vociferous objections that I simply do not have enough faith. I am still growing in my faith but I have learned not to let others put restrictions on my salvation – it is simply not their job.
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“Not sure why you would get flack. The core reason why couples should get married is Love, not Intimacy,”
Mark,
Having grown up in church & in several main-stream Christian denoms, what I have heard from the pulpit most of my life is that the solution to living together is marriage. The solution to lust is marriage as soon as possible. The basis for this teaching is 1Cor 7: It’s is better to marry than burn with lust.
I expected to get disagreement on my view that marriage isn’t always the right solution from those in the church with that point of view. I hope premarital counseling offered in churches does change, but I’m not holding my breathe. Marriage is preached as the ideal, preferred state. Single, divorced, not so much. Weddings abound.
I also agree with you that abuse is not okay & swift consequences are in order, married or not.
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Mark, A great discussion could be what is the purpose of marriage in the New Covenant. Marrying for love is a relatively new thing, historically since patriarchy was the legal construct up until about 100 years ago and even further back arranged marriages was the norm for most of the world.. And we have the problem that many define “love” in different ways.
I go back to Genesis and look at one flesh union and Ezer language. They were to be partners. Warrior partners to take dominion. It is a work relationship of sorts. They are together to accomplish things as a unit. In the Old Covenant part of that was to be fruitful and multiply. Now it is to “make disciples” whether that is your own children or not. Of course, sin marred that and we see patriarchy take over but Christ redeemed it. We sure do not act like it was redeemed, though. Many out there want to convince people that the sin of patriarchy is actually a Christian virtue. it is insidious.
In the New Covenant, remaining single has incredible virtue for the believer. But for those who are hung up on roles whether single or married, I refer them to some of the very radical behavior in the NT. One place is Luke 8 which is simply a description of what was going on:
“After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.”
So we have singles and married of both genders traveling around with Jesus. Women…including.a married woman!…are financially supporting Jesus and other men with Him.
What are we to make of this? You have all the favorite legal issues rolled up in one description. Gender roles: Out the window. Marriage roles: out the window. Single as not from God: out the window.
Perhaps we are too hung up on things that Jesus Himself was not hung up on?
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A Mom and Lydia,
I believe that many Patriarch husbands and Matriarch wives within Churches at times hold their offspring sometimes to an impossible standard they themselves failed to do. (rather than offer sound but spiritual guidance)
I want to make myself clear to those that came late, i don’t condone sin.
In making that proclamation, Counseling young people who are intimate and may or may not be living together and are contemplating marriage. the focus should always be investigated to see if they truly love each other. (not focusing on sin)
There is less shame avoiding marriage of someone you don’t love rather than suffering the consequences of marrying someone you don’t love whether they are intimate or not.
If either the Patriarch or Matriarch pressure their adult children, they are guiding their version of doing the “Right Thing” in marriage and is nothing more than a modern day arranged marriage. Which actually happen a few doors away from where I live 3 years ago..
I have asked myself “why is the divorce rate so high in churches?” How many of these marriages started more intimacy based rather than love based?
Getting married when couples don;t love each (pregnancy or not) is a recipe for disaster and unfortunately abuse. The ones that get abused the worse are women and children although I’m sure many men suffer abuse from their wives as well.
A Mom and Lydia in writing this I know some clergy and parents may disagree. But the question that may need to be asked is “what is the abuse and divorce rate of Preacher that offer sound but Godly counseling that is based on Love compared to couples that don’t receive love based counseling?”.
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Headless Unicorn Guy –
As someone who has lived in the Ephrata area and knows many, many many people who still live there, I’m really extremely offended you would try to link the behavior of this man to our area. Yes, we have a lot of conservative people in our area – Mennonites, who are the most nonviolent people you will ever meet (refusing to bear arms or join the military), and the Amish, who forgave even the guy who shot up their schoolhouse rather than seek retribution. Aside from those groups, our area is filled with all sorts of Christians (and nonchristians) of all sorts of persuasions and denominations. Our area is not well-known for domestic violence, any more than any other area of the country. How would you feel if this story happened in your town, as a one-time incident, and some headless rhinocerous girl started making comments about your area because of it? Not cool.
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I completely understand that what this woman experienced is abuse and should not be tolerated for any reason. However, knowing several people who practice what you are calling “domestic discipline” in their home, I think the perception is skewed. Mind you these people do not do it for religious reasons since they are all nonbelievers. The key to the difference between proper “domestic discipline” and abuse is consent. They both have to consent to the lifestyle as well as a set of rules to be adhered to. It sounds bad and a tad archaic that rules are being set by one spouse for another, I know. Many of these women have rules that are nothing more than items to help them achieve some type of goal they are having a hard time on. For example, one wife is perpetually late and has a tendency to stay up to all hours of the night, so hers are being in bed with everything off by 11pm and being up and out of bed in the morning no later than 5:30am. For another wife who is having a hard time dealing with emotional eating and attempting to lose weight she may allowed only 1 soft drink and has to take a lunch from home to work instead of ordering take out every day. For one wife I know, she grew up in a home where a lot of yelling and arguing happened between her parents so in her marriage she was super controlling to the point of demeaning her husband and would constantly yell and treat him horribly in front of their children. For her she has to speak with respect and cannot raise her voice to him in any way. If she disagrees she has to ask to speak with him privately and then voices her concerns out of ear shot of the children. These are not meant to subjugate the wife but to help her achieve a goal she doesn’t feel she can do on her own.
Another thing that is being completely overlooked in the discussion of this so called “domestic discipline” is the consequences. Not every violation of the rules is a spanking. Many times it can be writing a paragraph on the effects on the children of arguing in front of them or taking time to go and sit in the quiet to cool down and think about how disrespectful she was and other times it can be making her workout 4 days a week for the next month instead of 3. Also these consequences are always agreed on by both spouses. If the husband offers a consequence that the wife feels out of line it is her right and her duty to speak up and explain why and to offer an alternative. Everything about it is consensual from the rules to the consequences. Therefore I don’t believe that “domestic discipline” is as bad as everyone is making out to be.
Now don’t get me wrong, when it is done without the consent of the other spouse or is forced on her in any way and for any reason, whether for superiority or under the guise of the Bible, it is wrong, inappropriate and most definitely considered abuse.
What we as Christians need to remember is that we are not to judge another person or how they choose to live, and to never blindly follow any person even if they are the pastor of a church. Judgment is ultimately up to God. While domestic discipline works for the people I know it may not work for everyone, just as one teaching style will work for one child and not work for another. We are all different and we are all exactly how God made us.
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LilSouthernBelle: All that you say about “domestic discipline” is conditional on another issue. That is, whether a woman can exercise “domestic discipline” over her husband. IF NOT, then it is demeaning to the woman to be under a spouse’s “domestic discipline”. Only not abusive if it is mutual and operates in both directions.
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You beat me to it, An Attorney.
Does the wife get to discipline her husband if he cheats on his diet or expresses inappropriate temper? Or when he leaves his dirty socks on the floor or forgets to call when he’ll be late coming home? If not, it’s just misogyny.
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“What we as Christians need to remember is that we are not to judge another person or how they choose to live.”
Where does this stuff come from? No we are not to judge another person in the sense of condemning or wishing evil on them. However, Jesus warned us against casting pearls before pigs. How can we know who the pigs are if we don’t exercise judgement, as in discernment? And how can we discern except by the fruits of these pigs’ lives?
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Heather G,
Perhaps because my former “church” adopted a fair amount of Anabaptist teachings, I’m quite aware that the facade is very different than reality. There is much abuse that takes place among the “gentle people.”
http://legalaffairs.org/issues/January-February-2005/feature_labi_janfeb05.msp
“No statistics are available, but according to one Amish counselor who works with troubled church members across the Midwest, sexual abuse of children is “almost a plague in some communities.” “
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Not really. It is about consent and is only demeaning if she doesn’t agree to it and he is forcing her to abide by rules and doles out punishments for no reason or that haven’t been agreed upon by both parties. If she is asking for these rules to help her achieve a goal then what can she do to him for not achieving her goal. Again it is all about consent. If she has consented and is capable of giving that consent then it cannot be considered abuse. Remember, everything about the relationship is talked about and agreed on, from the rules to the consequences. How then can that be considered abuse? Your reason for it being abuse simply because it doesn’t flow both directions is then a mute point. Accountability doesn’t flow both directions when one person is helping another achieve a goal. This is a mutual agreement and a mutual respect for each other. She trusts him to be there for her when she encounters problems, trusts him to keep her accountable and trusts him to respect her. If he fails to be respectful at any time or doles out a consequence without she has the ability to stop it and call it off. That is a true “domestic discipline” relationship. If they decide that he has goals he wants help on achieving then it can certainly go both directions.
@Gary – You are basically saying that anyone who does not live within your prescribe definitions are considered “pigs” in this context. Yes we are to judge and use discernment in our actions and who we associate with. However to judge an entire group of people based on the limited few is the type of judgment I am speaking of.
I am sorry but I think we need to be accepting of how people choose to live in a consensual relationship. It is none of our business what a husband and wife decide to consensually behind closed doors. This is where I get aggravated with the so-called Christians who feel it is their job to enforce their view and way of life on others. We are to live by examples and not to judge others. We should concern ourselves with our own lives living as an example for Christ rather than working ourselves up over how our neighbor and his wife decide to engage in “domestic discipline” or S&M or B&D. It is none of our business what they do as long as they both consent, morally or legally.
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You are basically saying that anyone who does not live within your prescribe definitions are considered “pigs” in this context.
That is a reviling lie.
As to the notion of consenting to domestic discipline, S&M or B&D, I contend that consenting to any such thing would be nothing more than forms of self hatred.
LiLSouthernBelle, have you consented to domestic discipline, S&M or B&D? If so, I would encourage you to seek out the depths of the love of the One who died that we might all have life. You have permission to love those who Jesus loves, even yourself.
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S&M and B&D has nothing to do with self-hatred and saying that only shows your ignorance in the subject. I challenge you to go and speak to people who live that lifestyle, read about it. See if they truly hate themselves. I also don’t believe any type of BDSM has anything to do with my love of Christ. Yes, S&M is a part of my relationship with my husband.I have an incredibly strong faith in Christ. One does not have anything to do with the other.
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LiLSouthernBelle,
Maybe I should apologize for having asked a too-personal question that prompted an unexpected answer. I do apologize.
Still, I suggest that what you are advocating is something that is not the same as the domestic discipline most of us here find objectionable. We are objecting to domestic discipline, including wife spanking, as something that is falsely said to be justified on the grounds of God-given male authority — and we, or at least I, object even where the spouse may consent if the consent is granted on supposedly Biblical grounds. If consent is granted on supposedly Biblical grounds, the Bible has been used as a coercive instrument.
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The CDD debate will not likely be settled on this blog. But, experts have serious reservations about the practice.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/21/christian-domestic-discipline-spanking-jesus-marriage_n_3479646.html
“No fool in his right mind would buy this as a legitimate way to have a relationship,” Jim Alsdurf, a forensic psychologist who is an expert on Christian domestic abuse, told the Daily Beast. “A relationship that infantilizes a woman is one that clearly draws a more pathological group of people.”
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I am going to apologize ahead of time for the length of this one. SORRY!
Gary W. – I appreciate the apology. I will say if I was uncomfortable answering the question I would not have. However, I, and my husband, have chosen to live or lives as open books and if a question is asked of me, I always respond with the truth.
While my husband and I do practice S&M we also practice a form of “domestic discipline” or DD as well as B&D. For us it is only a few things that I have battled with my entire life and he is helping to change my thought processes around them and to change those behaviors. I could pay thousands of dollars to go to a psychologist or therapist for the same results. (I actually have and quite frankly they did nothing but take my money) If at any time I feel that the “rule” is not working or is problematic I will say something and we will sit down and work out how to change it so that it will accomplish the goal. I have done this multiple times over the last several months actually. For us we look at it as, I am setting the rules for myself but my hubby is keeping me accountable. No different than if I were to go on a diet and ask him to keep me in check either at home or out at a restaurant. My hubby respects me and does not think I am any less of a woman than I was before we started down this path. I may not make the last decision in the house, I do feel my hubby is the head of the house and therefore is the final word on many things, but I know my hubby values my opinion and takes my suggestions to heart. It is extremely rare that his decision is one I don’t care for. It has happened only twice that I can think of and it sucks to say this sometimes, but, he was right both times. I have not lost control of anything in my home and am not ordered around by him. I work a full time job, I care for our 2 beautiful children and I take care of all the finances for the house. In many things he defers to me but again we may come together and discuss it but he has the last say.
Again I think sometimes we in America get too caught up with everything having to be equal. “If I can’t chastise him then he can’t do it to me”. Like it or not our duty as wives are to be faithful to our husbands and to follow their lead. It is NOT to be a doormat. We are NOT objects to be owned and used. We are NOT less of a human being by being females.
I too agree with you that I find it objectionable and out and out wrong for a husband to force it on his wife. I don’t care if he uses the Bible as the reason or just that he is being an overbearing and controlling attitude. Whatever his reasons are there should only be one way a husband and wife practice DD, completely and totally consensually. I will say that the topic of CDD is extremely disturbing to me. I don’t think that anyone should ever use the Bible as a reason to inflict harm on another person or to subjugate them in any way.
I hope this made sense.
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BeenThereDoneThat,
If we were talking about any other group of people, no one would tolerate citing an example of abuse or incest as indicative of how the group behaves as a whole. Are their screwed up, broken families among the Anabaptists of Lancaster County? Sure, there definitely are – but this is NOT the norm.
Not to mention that, most people who live in Lancaster are NOT Mennonites or Amish. Just because someone lives in Lancaster, does not mean they should be lumped in with a particular denomination. This is akin to lumping everyone in with Hasidic Jews if they should happen to live in Brooklyn…..
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“Does the wife get to discipline her husband if he cheats on his diet or expresses inappropriate temper? ”
You’re totally missing the point. It’s sexy if my husband disciplines me. It’s not sexy if I discipline him. Call it mysogyny if you will, but to those of us with sub/dom sexual preferences, egalitarianism in the bedroom just isn’t a turn on.
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Erica, I agree with you and you put it so much better than I could have. LOL. Yeah I don’t think I could bend my husband over the bed and spank him. Yeah, uh no.
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So he is disciplining you for misbehavior and then when he disciplines you, it turns into sex play? What if you don’t want it to either the discipline or sex- – do you have a choice?
Oh my word – what have I ventured into? How exactly does this work – generally speaking – I don’t want to scare off my regulars.
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Heather,
My intent is not to tarnish the Lancaster region. I apologize if I came across that way. I have experience with a community evoking the “gentle people” image to try and obscure the abuse that takes place within that community. These communities are not exempt from the horrific abuse that plagues the “English” communities. That’s all. Not that Lancaster experiences any more or less than in any other region of the country.
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Speaking for my relationship only, is a spanking is given as a punishment, a punishment is a punishment, is a punishment. It is always separate from any type of sex play. But spanking can be a part of play as well. The attitude of my hubby during that particular spanking is drastically different than during play. Usually we discuss what has happened, agree on the “punishment” and the follow through. Afterwards it is not like he leaves me in a blubbering mess, he takes all the time in the world to do what we call “after-care”. We cuddle, and we talk about what happened and how I and we can prevent it from happening again. That is where it differs from abuse. If you have other questions and don’t want them posted here I will be more than happy to pass along my e-mail address and am happy to answer as many as I can with the knowledge I have.
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“Oh my word – what have I ventured into?”
Well, one thing I have ventured into is the insight that there may be a very real and troubling connection between the patriocentric agenda and the practice of SM/DB. It surely isn’t an issue in every patriocentric home, but you have to wonder just what the reward systems are, really, in any relationship where the husband enjoys the right to dominate the wife (to whatever greater or lesser degree), often, no doubt, to the point of inflicting emotional, and maybe even physical, pain.
Also, I wonder if this doesn’t all have some connection with the fact that today is the 100th anniversary of the birth of Albert Camus.
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LilSouthernBelle
BDSM people keep on talking of consent. But the first thing to know of consent is that in an inequal relationship, consent is suspect. A dom/sub relationship, despite what the BDSM community say, is inequal.
And it is not just that such people “agree to things they both like.”
For example, subs often accept punishment beatings – and they assure me it is a punishment because they dislike it – for things like forgetting to call the dom by his exalted nickname.
Punishment beatings, fear, shame – subs often experience things they dislike, and do not deserve.
By condoning unjust behavior, with one person treated worse than she deserves, such couples forget justice. He hardens his heart towards her to be able to give unjust and disliked things and feel sexually happy in doing so, and she harden your heart towards herself to say yes to unjust treatment she dislikes, and to call the giver of it a good guy.
If someone in this lifestyle call an unjust guy who do unpleasant things a good guy, I always wonder how much cruelty towards others – for example their children – they will condone.
Another thing, despite the insistence that they are normal, good people, none in your lifestyle -this includes you – are honest enough to defend this lifestyle under your own name, surname and photo. If you actually felt strongly about this, and were actually good examples of mental health, you would probably have had at least some open defenders, under their own names, of a wife-beating lifestyle. And here are a few answers I already heard, so you would know what I already know of BDSM : http://christianrethinker.wordpress.com/2013/05/17/is-there-anything-good-about-bdsm-arguments-that-cannot-be-used-to-call-bdsm-morally-acceptable/
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Erica or LilSouthernBelle – – – would either of you be interested in sharing your story and I could make a post out of it?
How did you get into this?
When did you start DD as a couple – – before or after marriage?
Were you raised with this belief?
Do your friends/pastor/family know about this and agree?
How would your husband handle it if you said, “nope, not doing this anymore?”
Do you believe DD is biblical? Do you have Bible verses to support it?
please send to spiritualSB@ gmail dot com
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DD/BDSM is more evidence that God spoke the truth: Gen 3:16 … thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. The results of sin, in many and mostly men, will be a desire to rule – Lord it over another. The results of sin in others, mainly women, will be to desire the one who rule.
Only Jesus could save us from ourselves, enable us to escape this degrading of ourselves/ others. This is not what God made us to be.
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” I, and my husband, have chosen to live or lives as open books and if a question is asked of me, I always respond with the truth.”
Okay, what is your real name, including last name? And your partner’s? You claimed you always respond with truth, so now is your chance.
I do not believe that the DD/ BDSM community always respond in truth. Their answers to me included, in the past:
“He would never hurt a fly… He likes to inflict pain on me”
“I like to be forced to do things I dislike… I am never forced- I want to do it.”
“it is always consensual.” “Sometimes I consent to not consent.”
He: “She always feels safe with me. And she is not addicted to this.” She, his partner: “I am addicted to the feeling of fear and release I get from this.”
To me: “We are in a mutually respectful relationship.” Same person who say she is in a mutually respectful relationship, on her blog a mere week before claiming that: “He called me a [crude word, dumping place for semen] and I was devastated, because I really want to be more than that to him.” Same women to me when I point it out: “He really didn’t mean what he said when he called me that. He didn’t tell me he didn’t mean it, but I know he did not.”
“I can be my true self in a relationship like this.” “We don’t mean what we say and do in scenes, it is an act.” “BDSM relationships are very honest.”
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Retha – Unfortunately no matter what any one says you are dead set on your opinion. That is truly sad, to be honest. Be open to listen, to learn and not judge what you don’t know about a persons life and their experiences.
I, myself, am a sub in the bedroom. This in no way makes my hubby a wife-beater nor does it make him a bad person. If at any time whether it is a “punishment” or during play the pain of whatever it may be gets too much I have a safeword that I can use to stop it. Again that is consensual and by design the dynamic is not supposed to be equal. That being said, if I were today to go home and tell mu hubby that I am no longer going to abide by the rules WE set forth and that I will no longer be his sub in the bedroom then it will in no hurt our marriage and would change nothing in our marriage. Therefore it is ultimately equal.
Your assumption that by me not using my real name that I am a poor example of mental health or am condoning “wife beating” as you put it, is again, ignorance on your part. I have my reasons for not using my real name and none of which is because I am ashamed of what my husband and I do. We are very protective of our personal life and nothing we do behind our bedroom door is anyone elses business, least of all yours. The main reason is because of narrow minded individuals who choose to judge us and think that it is their right to tell us what we can and cannot do inside our bedroom. I do not condone wife-beating in the most popular definition of the word. I think that a man who beats his wife uncontrollably in a domestic abuse situation is a deplorable person and I would never condone it.
In regards to many of your examples of BDSM relationships many of them sound unstable and abusive in nature. Again, just like in the vanilla world, not all relationships are peaches and cream. Some men can be abusers and some women can be unstable and therefore unable to properly discern abusive behaviors and in my opinion unable to give consent.
Again your hitching point of me giving my name is nothing more than a last ditch argument to prove your point. I choose not to give my name because of people like you who choose to stereotype an entire group of people as if you have a vast amount of knowledge of their life and what it is they do. I will answer any question posed to me about my life. You can ask how we got into this, how it works, how it works with kids around and I will answer. My name is of no concern to my life and my beliefs. If that is a sticking point for you, Retha, then I am sorry. You can think ill of my hubby and I all you want. It will not change our life and it definitely is no skin off my nose, no offense.
Unfortunately the world is an unkind place to people who do not fit with what some people feel should be the norm. It can cause problems with jobs, with extended family and with friends. All of which may not understand the topic completely and are only judging based on biased or incorrect information. This is sad for me considering many of those people are christian and are supposed to be the ones that are accepting of all people. Instead they are the most harsh and judgmental of all.
Julie Anne – I will work on putting that together over the next few days. My e-mail address is the same as my username and I will put DD in the subject line.
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Thanks, LilSouthernBelle
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“Again your hitching point of me giving my name is nothing more than a last ditch argument to prove your point.”
It did prove her point. Personally, I wish you guys would NEVER talk about it.
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lydiasellerofpurple – I just read that part of my comment and realized my sentence was cut off and never finished. I was attempting to write my reply in the comment box here and shuffle it around so I apologize. What it should of said was this…Again your hitching point of me giving my name is nothing more than a last ditch argument to prove your point that I am either mentally ill or that my husband and I are ashamed of what we do.
The only point she ended up making and you ended up agreeing with, is that just because I refuse to give my full name and risk my career and the career of my husband, then everything I have said is wrong and I am somehow mentally incapable of making the decision of what is right and wrong in the bedroom. Like I said in my last comment lydiasellerofpurple, there are way to many narrow minded people who choose to only ever believe that which they are told by someone else or keep their prejudicial thoughts. I will not risk my career or that of my husbands just to satisfy you or Retha and for either of you to expect me to is quite frankly inexcusable and extremely sad that neither of you respect another persons livelihood enough to not jeopardize it.
I am curious as to the the reasons why we should “NEVER talk about it”?
No offense but if the topic offends you then why are you reading it?
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Julie Anne,
I so appreciate the invite to share my story – I’m just not ready for prime time….although I’m sure there are many other couples that do domestic discipline that would be much more ready to share openly. One reason is that in my relationship, my husband actually does not share my attraction to this way of living – he only dabbles in it because I have IMPLORED him to understand that this is a sexual/emotional need of mine – and it is something he’d be really embarrassed about as it isn’t something feels totally comfortable about, but something he does only because I’ve begged him to, and he loves me and wants to fulfill me. (You know, women are constantly being told to be open to trying new sexual things that their husbands want – perhaps the only nod to egalitarianism that is here is that my husband only does this because he wants to be open to what I want.)
So let me quick respond to your questions, you asked: “So he is disciplining you for misbehavior and then when he disciplines you, it turns into sex play? What if you don’t want it to either the discipline or sex- – do you have a choice?”
I guess I just want to clarify what I said about him spanking me being sexy, but me spanking him wouldn’t be sexy: You have to understand that this thing is holistic. It’s not “sex play” per se, but it’s a part of our relationship that is infused with the ying/yang sexual tension being expressed in other dimensions of our relationship, which has sexual elements but isn’t necessarily about sex. So, being disciplined by him is sexy – it makes me desire him more and more sexually – but it’s not foreplay and isn’t like “normal” S&M because it’s not part of sex. It’s part of the relationship, which in turn, is part of our sex life. And our sex life is part of the relationship, which in turn is part of our domestic discipline life. Sex is the affectionate side of it our pleasure in being together, discipline is the affectionate side of displeasure.in being together.
So, can discipline turn into sex play? Well, not immediately, anyway. There might be a few steps in between one turning into the other – like me quietly snuggling up to him after a discipline session and just quietly and submissively seeking his reassurance and comfort that we are at home with one another with what has just been done.
If I don’t want the discipline, well, I’ve already given him blanket permission that he can discipline me any time whether I want it or not. The only time I’ve ever refused him is if we are fighting – as discipline is not something that should happen to settle an argument, but only something we do from a place of unity with one another. Sex for us is not like discipline – it’s not something done TO one another – so, it is different. But that’s me. Other couples’ mileage may vary.
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Retha –
Generally people who practice domestic discipline do not consider it to be BDSM. And the BDSM community isn’t generally into the whole DD thing either.
The only thing that these two communities have in common is that they both practice spanking, but the hows, the whys and the flavor of it all is markedly different.
Likewise, the complementarian Christian community usually isn’t into BDSM or DD, and many people who are into DD are not complementarians (although some are.) About the only thing these three communities truly have in common is that they all are ok with the idea of one person in the relationship submitting to the other. The actual reasons, and form that it takes, differ between these three groups, although there is occasional overlap.
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LiLSouthernBelle, you said
Yet, the very first and only question I asked of you (your names)- you answer with your reasons why you are not “an open book.”
I can understand your reasons for not being an open book, but do not tell me you are an open book.
As for being “dead set in my opinion” and not “open to listen and learn” – my opinion is based on years of listening and learning.
For example, I hear when you claim “Afterwards it is not like he leaves me in a blubbering mess …” that he makes you into a blubbering mess in the first place.
The point I made from your refusal to give your full name is that you are not, as you claim to be, an open book. Other points – right or wrong – were made from other data.
From behind your pseudonym, where nobody can hurt you, she insult people open and honest enough to live – and give unpopular opinions – under their real name as open books, people whose actual reputatations can get harmed by being spoken badly of on the Internet.
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Erica said:
That sounds like it would be horrifically unhealthy with a guy who actually wanted to punish.
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True. You being a submissive don’t make him a wife beater. Him spanking you make him a wife beater. You see, spank is a synonym of beat, as you can see here: http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/spank
If your husband spanks you, he is a wife beater.
I know. Some people feel that it should be the norm to never judge anyone – even if they hit other people, or live in a way that proclaim some people don’t have to be treated with respect. Such people have often disliked me for daring to believe people should be treated with mutual respect in intimate relationships, that such good treatment better reflects the fact that people are made in the image of God – not to be slaves, but to rule with him over the world.
They simply don’t get why I cry over people in relationships I see is unhealthy, or pray for them.
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I have not jeopardized your livehood. I asked you a question, after you said you are an open book. You were free to not answer, as I guessed you would choose. Your non-answer gives evidence against the “open book” point, but does not jeopardize your livehood.
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Retha,
First of all, do not lump me and LilSouthernBelle into the same category, as if we are the same person, simply because we practice a similar lifestyle. Case in point: *I* never said my life was an open book. Yet you attribute these words to me. I also have not to my knowledge called anyone names or insulted anyone here. Perhaps you think it is acceptable to treat LilSouthernBelle and I as if we are somehow subhuman and therefore just a “category” rather than two distinct voices saying similar, but different things. If this is the case, that is something you may want to examine about your approach to people who differ from you.
You wrote about my words: “That sounds like it would be horrifically unhealthy with a guy who actually wanted to punish.”
Yes, absolutely, it WOULD be horrifically unhealthy with a guy who was just “out to punish.” That’s why I’m not married to that type of man, and if I was, I’d leave him. I’m married to someone who has a warm, loving, respectful relationship with me: respectful enough to fulfill my fantasies, sometimes, of having a strong man “take me in hand” and spank me. Oh well.
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PS – if we were having a conversation here about other intimate details of a couples’ life, for instance, detailed descriptions of sexual activities in your bedroom, would you insist that everyone in this conversation “use their real names?” Be reasonable! One does not need to use “their real name” to discuss things that others might want to learn about, that one might have reason to discuss, but for which it might be highly inappropriate to have their real name smattered all over the internet discussing such intimate things.
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Tragically, these CDD couples are doing the opposite of what God’s word calls them to do. What God really wants is for the husband to wash his wife with “the water of the word,” which is pleasant but too graphic to describe here. According to my well-researched take on scripture.
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While there seem to be an increasingly larger number of Christian who are into this kind of thing, it makes me uneasy when men take pleasure in humiliating their wives.
I saw an example of this on the Sunshine Mary and the Dragon blog a few days ago. Sunshine Mary wrote a post advising how wives should care for sick or injured husbands. Her husband wrote a comment under her post telling all of her readers about how terribly she allegedly treated him when he injured his knee in a skiing accident and had to go to the emergency room. He called her out for not including the story in her post.
He then made her record herself apologizing for what she had done and post a link to the recording on her blog. http://vocaroo.com/i/s1iKW4L88STA
In addition to the voice recording, Sunshine let her readers know that she had apologized to him “profusely” even though her alleged misconduct took place two years ago.
She sometimes writes about how he “punishes” her. For instance, when her dishwasher broke, he wouldn’t let her buy a new one b/c she had disobeyed him by putting knives in it. It seems like a sad, one-sided relationship yet she adores him.
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Yeah i don’t get that – that all seems cruel and creepy. That’s not what my husband and I practice, at all. He has permission to spank me – but that’s in private. I don’t understand why a woman would be expected to publically confess some wrong that occurred between her and her man – that’s between them, and maybe a counselor if they need it. Or maybe their small group or something. Not to mention that it seems entirely wrong that he is holding over her head something from two years ago – this is sadistic, this is not loving, firm, wife-honoring discipline. In other words, just as one would not completely dishonor and denigrate a child in how he or she is disciplined, even if spanking is practiced in a household, neither should a husband be dishonoring and denigrating his wife just because they have decided to allow spanking into their lifestyle.
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I would just hope everyone here is consistent in their definition of abuse.
If spanking is abuse, you must never spank your kids.
I did not see the video of the man spanking his wife. His punishment should be based on the level of injury, not theology. If a mom spanked her child with the same relative force that he did his wife, then she should receive the same punishment from the courts. Both either should or should not be considered abusive.
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Apparently, most Christian churches, including Catholic, believe that men should be in authority over the women and there are Christian men who hate the idea of women being equal or superior to them and then act bitchy towards them, especially the openly assertive and confident woman who initiates things and expresses confidence in intimacy, etc. They easily get intimidated by that and try to subjugate the woman and put her where she belongs. It’s typical yet there are Christian parents who want their daughters to marry Christian guys only, mostly among conservatives, instead of non-believers who support, respect, and tolerate them as equals or superiors as well as make them happy even though these Christian guys turn out to be domineering and controlling by wanting to wear the pants all the time in everything, not letting them be equal or superior by silencing them, homophobic, prejudiced towards others who are different, including non-believers, they are friends with, etc. It’s common and it’s no wonder (conservative) Christian (and Catholic) marriages report more domestic violence and/or divorce than progressive-type ones because of strict gender roles and lack of gender equality and flexibility.
In addition to that, there are Christian husbands who discipline their wives for looking at porn, drinking, doing drugs, smoking, gambling, spending, talking to non-believers, including non-believing men, initiating sex, making decisions, treating them like objects, etc. because these Christian men don’t know how to cope since there’s no resources for men whose wives are addicted to porn, drinking, drugs, sex, smoking, gambling, spending. They don’t trust their wives around non-believers, especially non-believing men, and they want to be the boss of everything and feel emasculated by their wives initiating sex, making decisions, etc. because they hate being objectified by women. This is the attitude of (some) Christian men, unfortunately. Of course, they would beat their wives for misbehaving, especially by having manstresses, or male mistresses, on the side, for example. That means hunky gigolos, male strippers, rent boys, and call boys. It’s common.
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Please be very very careful about going to the worldly system for help. Unless you are getting beaten try to avoid it. The government system is not there to help you. You will be worse off than when you tried to get help. You will lose money. Your kids will suffer. Your husband will be jailed. You may end up living in squalor. Your kids will miss you when you’re working 3 jobs. Think very hard before you jump to the 911 rat on your husband ladies. Wives should not be abused, true, but there is a huge difference from abuse and a one or even two time event where your husband loses it…BE WISE. Seek GODLY counsel. If you go to a church that will protect or cover up the abuse, go to another church. Try to AVOID the worldly system. They may even take your kids if they think you were being abused and let them see it. Be very careful ladies..This system is not your friend. They will rip your lives to shreds. I’d rather take a few slaps from a husband then deal with our insane and low level thinking weird hypervigilant arrogant system of fools.
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I am so distressed I can hardly type. I am somewhat familiar with the patriarchal movement, so I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised, but my gut is churning. I had no idea……Sproul, too? Oh, my. I have extreme disagreements with a couple of posters. Believe me, if my husband ever laid a hand on me for ANY reason (and he dare not call it sex play), he’d be gone. This is my 2nd husband; I was shoved once by my first so I pretended to collapse to the floor because I didn’t know what else to do, then he kicked me while I was on the floor. He put me over his knee and spanked me. What did I do? I gave him a BJ. It was absolutely disgusting and demeaning and sick. I was extremely ignorant and had been brought up to be super submissive and subservient, but it was the beginning of the end in my mind. Twenty years ago I divorced him because of his long-term affair, and he immediately married the other woman. Sorry to ramble and be too lengthy, but the nausea of this ‘discipline’ crap which, by any other name, is pure abuse, is making me nuts. I am determined to keep my eyes open for signals in my church, but I think the pastor/people are ok, although I will assume nothing.
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I hear ya, Jo.
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I don’t see anything wrong with this, I’m not a nut job this seems to be completely one-sided. Domestic discipline is done in a loving way. It is the head of the household responsibility protect his family but also correct them in a manner that has been laid out over thousands of. If more families participated and loving correction not abuse, They would be so much less corruption and happier families. I’m assuming most of you haven’t felt true love in a place of belonging. And you will be condemned to continue looking for something you’re missing. But regardless your one-sided opinions on domestic discipline offer no true insight or understanding. So any of your words have absolutely no merit. I feel sorry for the majority of you
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And who corrects the head of the household when he needs correction or crosses the line into abuse?
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