Sexual Abuse/Assault and Churches, Sovereign Grace Ministries Lawsuit, Together for the Gospel

C.J. Mahaney withdraws Himself from T4G Conference

*    *    *

At the T4G website, a note was posted that C.J. Mahaney will not be speaking at the 2014 Together for the Gospel conference.  The conference is in Mahaney’s hometown of Louisville and speakers include Ligon Duncan, Albert Mohler, Mark Dever, David Platt, John Piper, Kevin DeYoung, Thabiti Anyabwile, and Matt Chandler.  Check out the speaker page where you can see a small note in red:

Screen shot 2013-07-02 at 5.55.46 AM

When you click on the red link, you come to a page with a note written by C.J. Mahaney.  Here is a portion of that note:

Screen shot 2013-07-02 at 5.50.44 AM

Seriously.  It’s about time!

156 thoughts on “C.J. Mahaney withdraws Himself from T4G Conference”

  1. B4B states (quoting the Bible):
    ““Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” Matthew 7:1-5”

    I am quite sure that I quoted scripture, as well, in which it shows that we are to judge those who claim to be Christians, BUT that God judges those who are NOT Christians. Your quote, however, does NOT say to NOT JUDGE. It states that IF YOU JUDGE, BE PREPARED TO BE JUDGED.

    Scroll up and see that I even quoted Jesus when he was being accused for WORKING on the Sabbath. Jesus said to judge righteously…so we are to judge.

    Why are you not judging before a verdict? By the mouth of two or three witnesses may every word be established. The witnesses have spoken, and yet, you still won’t stand in judgment? But yet, you do judge us here. So be prepared to be judged.

    Ed

    Like

  2. We are permitted to be’fruit’ inspectors, NOT judge internal motives which was might think we know, but unless we can see into the hearts of men (Jesus’ turf.). The end.

    Like

  3. Thanks, Ed. I live in the same State and County that CLC resides in and I’m embarrassed that the community as a whole hasn’t done more to stop what’s going on at that Church and that society as a whole gives religious organizations so many passes for acting irresponsibly.

    If the owners of a day care or the teachers of a public school acted the way Josh Harris acted on the 23rd, they’d be arrested and their businesses would be shut-down. But because CLC is a Church, Harris and his fellow Pastors can flatly refuse to state that they will follow the law and there’s nothing anyone can do about it in the short-term.

    When I was in college the University put up a gazillion warning signs in the library due to allegations that students were being sexually harassed. At the time that seemed excessive as to me as you’d expect to have to be careful in a library full of young people. Interestingly, a lawyer attending a seminar with me said that if the University didn’t put up those signs, it might be sued even if the allegations were not well substantiated.

    By contrast…

    The CLC establishment hasn’t provided the public with any warning signs about the massive class action sexual abuse lawsuit its facing and/or the sexual abuse criminal investigations into the conduct of its Pastors and members that are reputedly going strong. And from the outside the place looks like a happy wholesome Church.

    I asked about CLC’s policy for reporting sexual abuse and was told it was none of my business because I’m not a member. Just a tax payer picking up the tab for Joshua Harris’s non-profit tax breaks, I guess. 🙂

    I have been researching/dealing with SGM for a while yet I owe Brent Detwiler for shining so much light on the subjects above. You might like his site. Brentdetwiler.com

    Thanks again.

    Like

  4. Janna Chan – Good points about Harris. He also seems to be protecting a man, Charlie Llewelyn, whose children have alleged for years that he sexually abused them. I guess it’s easier to take a pastor out of SGM than it is to take SGM out of the pastor.

    You’ve probably read Brent’s June 25 post, in which he’s very hard on Harris.

    Like

  5. I have to say, as a homeschool mom who has many regrets, I have some compassion in my heart for Josh Harris because of the environment in which he was raised. I remember him as a kid being dragged around to homeschool convention after homeschool convention having to man his dad’s book sales. Not only is he a sex abuse victim, he was in the Homeschool Movement, son of a high profile Christian leader in the Homeschool Movement, son of a pastor, etc. Josh was thrust into the public spotlight at a very early age with his drawing books, then with speaking, New Attitude magazine, teen conferences, etc.

    His father, Gregg Harris, founded the Household of Faith churches – family-integrated churches in the Portland area (we attended a plant for 6 months). This group is a high-controlling group with many similarities with SGM. SGM most certainly felt home-like to Josh because of all the homeschoolers, high controlling pastors, etc. Somewhere there must be a line drawn at responsibility, but I don’t know where that line is. This is all one very confusing mess.

    Like

  6. B4B states:
    “We are permitted to be’fruit’ inspectors, NOT judge internal motives which was might think we know, but unless we can see into the hearts of men (Jesus’ turf.). The end.”

    My response:
    Fruit inspectors? Not judge internal motives?

    You are so off base it isn’t even funny. WE ARE TO JUDGE. It is so hypocritical of you to pick and choose which verses from the Bible to adhere to.

    You say that we are NOT to judge, but the Bible clearly instructs us to judge.

    You misuse, JUDGE NOT, LEST YE BE JUDGED, because it does NOT say that we are not to judge, even in that sentence.

    HOWEVER, there are lots and lots and lots of references that we ARE TO JUDGE.

    You, sir, follow a weird doctrine, in which you selectively choose which verses you are to adhere to.

    Ed

    Like

  7. Re comment 12:13 pm~

    “We are permitted to be’fruit’ inspectors, NOT judge internal motives which was might think we know, but unless we can see into the hearts of men (Jesus’ turf.). The end.”

    It is not “The end.” Paul was be able to judge some motives…

    Phil 1:15-18
    “15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice.”

    How did Paul know some preached Christ out of envy (a heart motive)? How did he discern jealousy was present in their hearts? Or selfish ambition-another motive? How did he know there was an ulterior motive of gaining power, popularity or followers? Maybe “motives” are not as off limits or as unknowable as you think. We can know what is in someone’s heart by what s/he speaks.

    btw–would you please define your phrase “stand in judgment?” What does “stand in judgment” exactly mean? Here are the two ways you used the phrase:

    “I am not to stand in judgment over what I think his motives REALLY are, even if I have personal suspicions.”

    and

    “At the same time, I feel no need to apologize for being harsh to professing Christians who clearly stand in judgment over other believers, except for not just offering the following and letting ‘what has been written’ do the rebuking.”

    Like

  8. B4B,

    I am responding to your 3:06 post, and I think that your response was in regards to my 11:42 post.

    You had stated:
    “Gee, I don’t know Ed, maybe because I’m not God, Jesus, or the Holy Ghost?”

    My response:
    Last I recall, Jesus and the Holy Ghost is God, so why do you use the word “or”?

    1 Corinthians 6:2-4 (King James Version)

    2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

    3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.

    YA, THAT’S RIGHT B4B…US “LITTLE PEOPLE” ARE TO JUDGE THE THINGS PERTAINING TO THIS LIFE, for we will also be judging the angels.

    “Paul asks, “are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?” YOU and Wesley Roy, and Ken are telling us, “YES, WE ARE UNWORTHY.” But Paul indicates “NO, YOU ARE WORTHY.”

    Apparently, God hasn’t delegated that to you three, as you think that you are above us “LITTLE PEOPLE”.

    Ed

    Like

  9. JA – why do you think Josh’s manning his dad’s booth was such a negative abusive routine? It seems you make things like that sound like abuse and awfulness. Kind of like when I make my kids mow the lawn (I can’t drive all over the country since I have a job that is stationary). 🙂 It’s like everything these folks do is all wrong. Maybe you didn’t mean that, but it looks like a pattern.

    Like

  10. Diane,

    I think we can discern and judge that B4B doesn’t know his Bible very well. God encourages us to judge, and here we have the experts telling us that we can’t judge.

    These experts know not what they preach, giving us the ole “I can’t judge the heart” speech. Blah, blah, blah.

    Ed

    Like

  11. Ric,

    I don’t speak for JA, but I think I can say something in response. It’s like using your kids as a COVER UP in the commission of a crime. It’s wrong. Your scenario is much different. It’s right.

    Ed

    Like

  12. B4B,

    Let’s look at some verses which illustrate that you act out of and can be judged by the state of your heart.

    The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. (Lu 6:45)

    But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man `unclean’. (Mt 15:18)

    “What comes out of a man is what makes him `unclean’. For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man `unclean’.” (MA 7:20-23)

    As water reflects a face, so a man’s heart reflects the man. (Pr 27:19)

    Ed

    Like

  13. Ric,

    I guess you did miss it…big time. You need to read up on the history of his dad and him. JA has valid reasons why she states what she states.

    Ed

    Like

  14. Ric said: “JA – why do you think Josh’s manning his dad’s booth was such a negative abusive routine?”

    I think you’re reading into something that is not there, Ric. I was trying to show how he was consistently in the public eye from a young age. Homeschooling affords kids that opportunity. His childhood was certainly different from the average homeschooler. Only he could say whether it was too much.

    Like

  15. roger… so its not a crime to have your kids work the booth, but the other things were criminal? :\ b4 you responded, I did some reading, but hadn’t seen anything criminal. the sex abuse is upsetting, for anyone. are you saying that was his dad?

    Like

  16. Ric said:

    roger… so its not a crime to have your kids work the booth, but the other things were criminal? :\ b4 you responded, I did some reading, but hadn’t seen anything criminal. the sex abuse is upsetting, for anyone. are you saying that was his dad?

    I should have reread my comment before responding so I could get a sense of what you were referring to. No, I do not believe his dad sexually abused him. I’m just saying that not only was he a PK (pastor’s kid), but he was also a high profile leader’s kid in the Homeschool Movement. He was in the public spotlight more than just a pastor’s kid. This puts a lot of pressures on a kid. Then he was thrust into it further with his own speaking/writing endeavors.

    Like

  17. JA – (5:18) – yea, that’s got to be a lot of pressure… I couldn’t imagine, I often think it may have been a lot of fun, but that all depends on the home, I guess. Lots of work too.

    Like

  18. B4B,

    You had said:
    “Another great example of spiritual dodge ball!”

    That’s right…you were hit in the gut with the dodge ball that I threw at you. At least I quote scripture properly showing that have authority to judge the heart of men, and that God gave us instruction as to how a man’s heart is to be judged, which you obviously haven’t taken into consideration, with all of your “Judge Not” posts.

    It wasn’t me that dodged anything. You dodge scripture, telling us that you go by the Bible, and yet, you have no clue what the Bible speaks in regards to us “little people” having authority to judge the heart of others. And you are supposed to be some kind of an expert? You and Ken and Wesley Roy?

    Like

  19. I seriously doubt it is coincidental that Mahaney withdrew from the T4G conference and that the letter of support by Dever, Duncan and Mohler was removed from the T4G site on the heels of the resolution adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention that says, “RESOLVED, That we encourage all denominational leaders and employees of the Southern Baptist Convention to utilize the highest sense of discernment in affiliating with groups and/or individuals that possess questionable policies and practices in protecting our children from criminal abuse”. Dever and Mohler know the level of backlash they would have received within the SBC had their continued association with and public support of Mahaney been allowed to stand after that resolution was passed. They are not stupid men; they know which side of their bread is buttered.

    Like

  20. Here’s how these things work: a large donor refused to drink the 100 proof version of the Kool-Aid and drew a line in the sand. Bye, bye CJ. Been a Southern Baptist too long to think this isn’t the best bet.

    Like

  21. Either 100 proof Kool-Aid, Paul, or perhaps someone has caught wind that the criminal investigations have yielded far more dirt than any Christian organization wants to be associated with.

    Like

  22. Well, after a lot of discussion, there are some in here who are convinced they have the right to judge the heart of a man. I seem to remember a passage somewhere that stated that Jesus knew (knows) what is in the hearts of men. No, I have never found a passage that says specifically that we mortals don’t, but it seems to me that it’s so obvious that those specific words don’t need to be there. Sure, we have Ananias and his wife being busted for lying to the Holy Ghost, but that was a descriptive account that put on display the power of God and not a prescription for any of us to judge the thoughts and intents of another’s heart.

    Just general thoughts. I still maintain that we are certainly called to judge sin, but judging motives is god’s territory. I can speculate all day long about why someone does something, and will undoubtedly be able to come up with varying possibilities in any given situation for any specific person. However, only God know which possibility might be the right one (my possibilities could ALL be wrong). I would have to possess all knowledge to say for certain why anyone does anything, even if that person tells me why. He could be lying.

    Do you all get it yet? If we judge the heart and inner motives of others, we are claiming to be God, for only He has all knowledge.

    Like

  23. ED:

    Let’s look at some verses which illustrate that you act out of and can be judged by the state of your heart.

    The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. (Lu 6:45)

    But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man `unclean’. (Mt 15:18)

    “What comes out of a man is what makes him `unclean’. For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man `unclean’.” (MA 7:20-23)

    As water reflects a face, so a man’s heart reflects the man. (Pr 27:19)

    those passages state unequivocally that our actions proceed from the heart, NOT that we have the right to judge the heart from which they came, to declare we know exactly what evil motivation was behind a specific evil act.

    The ‘you can be judged’ bit isn’t in the text, although we ought to be able to discern and judge evil itself. Those are statements of fact concerning fallen men, not commandments to judge.

    Like

  24. Don’t you get it yet, Born4Hypocrisy? You’re acting like a hypocrite, and you need to quit flapping your lips against your forehead with your hypocrisy. You can trot out all the proof-texting you wish, but you’re not fooling anyone here. You just one more “do as I say, not as I do” hypocrite preacher. And today, on Independence Day of all days, all you’re preaching is more subjugation to hypocrite men just like yourself.

    I’d really love to have a private face to face discussion with you!

    Like

  25. You’ve got to be kidding me, Eric. Have I publicly disclosed my disdain for cilantro? I’m afraid to look. This is Independence Day for crying out loud. I might have to wait until tomorrow so I can be FREE from cilantro on this day. I hope you are not being evil to me, Eric Fry.

    Like

  26. Ed Chapman

    Got caught up in a simple movie the other day on TV.
    It was about Bull Fighting in Spain.

    Lots of scenes with the Matador edging on, teasing, the Bull to charge.

    Then, as the Bull charged, the matador skillfully stepped out of the way.
    And the crowd would shout – each time – every time – Ole – Ole

    And if that huge Bull does not gore the Matador to death…
    The end comes, the Matador takes his sword and skilfully ends the contest…
    By taking his sword and “Piercing it thru the Bull.”

    Your comments in this thread reminded me that Matador.
    As you skillfully, scripturally, stepped out the way of all that Strange B.S.
    Charging around this thread – Strange B.S., Believers are NOT to Judge…

    Then taking your spiritual sword, The word of God…
    Eph 6:17 …and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

    And piercing it thru that Strange B.S. – Believers are NOT to Judge…
    dividing asunder of soul and spirit,
    and of the joints and marrow,
    and being a **discerner** of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    Heb 4:12

    The Strange B.S. lies dead in the middle of the volume of scripture piercing it thru.

    And Amos shouts – Ole – Ole…

    What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
    What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.

    Like

  27. Happy 4th Everyone…

    A Amos Love,

    I was just looking at the Hebrews reference right before I read your comment.

    the word for “word of God” is Logos, and we should all know that the spoken word of God (logos) is written in the Bible from Genesis 1:1 to the end of Revelation.

    We know that Jesus is the spoken word of God, and Jesus taught us from HIS WORD that we are to use HIS WORD to discern HEART MATTERS, the motives.

    God (Jesus) told us time and time again that man looks at the outward appearance…he was telling us that we should look at the inward, not the outward. He wasn’t telling us that ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE THE INWARD. He was teaching us to look at the inward.

    The reformers tell us that man’s motives are evil always and that we have no right to even judge our own motives (http://www.faithdefenders.com/from-the-desk/DoGood_MotivesJustify_EvilDeeds.html).

    If B4B has a wife, and he buys his wife a dozen roses, the reformers wish to tell us that he just bought his wife roses out of an evil motive, all because everyone’s motives are evil…everyone’s. The link that I provided was from a reformer, a Calvinist. If B4B’s wife does sweet things for B4B, then, according to that link that I provided, he cannot judge her motive, but he can conclude that her motive is evil, because everyone’s motives are ALWAYS evil…not just sometimes, but always. And, B4B isn’t allowed to judge her motives. After all, she could be lying. And if lying is a sin, B4B has no problem judging sin. Conclusion, B4B’s wife does sweet things because her motives are evil, and she is lying. Makes perfect sense, doesn’t it?

    Yes, Strange B.S. alright.

    Like

  28. JA,

    Right, to accept that is the 100 proof. At any rate, somethings up because this is a concession and those guys just don’t do that.

    Like

  29. “Scripture whipped”

    Now don’t give B4B any ideas! The next thing we’re going to see in the Neo-Calvinist crowd is flagellation over their total depravity. They already spank their wives in SGM!

    Like

  30. It seems that Paul Dohse (and his lies) are alive and well in here. That’s OK. There seems to be a Matthew 7:6 ,pment here, and I ain’t barkin’!

    Like

  31. Ed Chapman

    Much agreement…
    “he was telling us that we should look at the inward, not the outward. He wasn’t telling us that ONLY GOD CAN JUDGE THE INWARD. He was teaching us to look at the inward.”

    And ALL believers can learn to, – ”Look at the inward” – Ask Jesus to teach you how.
    And Judge ALL things. 1 Cor 2:15. (Examine, test, try, discern, ALL things.)

    I believe – ALL “Believers” already know how, to do that. – But the Spirit has been quenched by “The Corrupt Religious Systems Leaders” Who do NOT like it when these “Corrupt Leaders” are examined, tested, tried, judged by the lowly little sheepies – “Laypeople.”

    Now – One way “WE” “Look at the inward” is by listening, reading, and observing
    what someone speaks, writes and does (Actions).

    Because Jesus, taught His Disciples…
    “…out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.” Mat 12:34

    What’s in the heart – will come out – eventually. – Just listen, read, and observe. Then ask Jesus – Are they bringing forth that which is good? Or, are they bringing forth that which is evil?

    It doesn’t take a Spiritual Giant to know when someone “in their Heart” – Is sad , depressed, hurting. They speak it, they write it, “WE” observe it in their face, “WE” hear it in their tone of voice, “WE” observe and understand by their body language, “WE” hear it, read it, in the words they use. And – “WE” know what’s in their heart…

    “WE,” His Church, His Body, His Sheep – are Judging ALL things – ALL the time…

    When I just “Obeyed” – “The Corrupt Leaders,” in “The Corrupt Religious System.” Because they told me to. – And did NOT judge ALL things – Did NOT judge the guys with the “Titles.” (Examine – Test – Try – Prove – ALL things) – I wound up getting “Led” astray, and “Abused” by those who claimed to be my “Shepherd,” my “God Ordained Authority,” and convinced me they were “A Gift from God” to me. Ouch!!! 😦

    Seems God wants us to *discern* (Judge) “Good and Evil.”

    Heb 5:14*
    But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age,
    even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised
    to *discern* (Judge) both good and evil.

    Then God tells “WE” how – “of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.”

    Luke 6:45
    A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good;
    and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil:
    **for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.**

    Yes – God – The Bible – shows “WE” a way to discern a mans heart – Good or Evil…
    Listen, Read, and Observe – What he Speaks, Writes and Does…

    Like

  32. Two things.
    1. Marge is 100% right, folks. Marge said, “As usual, all CJ is concerned about is his buddies and the conference. “I love these men and this conference.” “My participation could create a hindrance to this conference and its distinct purpose of serving so many pastors.” It’s always and only about the leaders.”

    Did you read CJ’s own statement? Read it again:

    Last line: “I believe the most effective way I can serve my friends who have supported me, and continue to support me, is by not participating in the 2014 conference.” First paragraph, paraphrased: My reason for withdrawing is simple, I love these men. I desire and serve their ongoing fruitfulness.

    Why are we talking about heart motives or judging here? CJ has been quite clear and up front about his reason, don’t ya think?

    CJ withdrew for his buddies, their image and fruitfulness. He did not withdraw for the victims, he didn’t mention justice, he didn’t say he knew it was right.

    2. Now that’s out of the way, the question is how long do you think this statement will be up before it’s taken down? CJ says as of July 1, 2013 these men still support him.

    It would be pretty cool if people started contacting CJ’s “friends” directly (via tweets or comments on their blogs) to ask them to confirm CJ’s statement that they do still, in fact, support CJ as of the date CJ posted it, July 1, 2013. For posterity’s sake (saving or documenting knowledge for use in the future). Any takers?

    I think the T4G men have been incredibly ambiguous for a long time now. Aristotle said, “We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit.” Aristotle also said, “For though we love both the truth and our friends, piety requires us to honor the truth first.” Hope they read this.

    Janna Chan, Your comments are so informative. Keep up the good work and keep informing us!

    Like

  33. A Mom: I did in fact tweet Denny Burk and tagged Mohler, Dever, and Duncan about this very thing. You may remember that Denny Burk did a blog article referencing the original Statement of Support for CJ and at the bottom of the article said he was signing his name to the statement of support. So I tweeted him and asked him if he was still supporting CJ:

    There has been no response. I’m keeping an eye on it, you can be sure.

    Like

  34. A Mom quotes CJ, “I believe the most effective way I can serve my friends who have supported me, and continue to support me…”

    Notice that he doesn’t serve the congregations, the church, etc. He only serves his friends.

    Matthew 5:46
    For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

    Ed

    Like

  35. Julie Anne,

    What I find interesting is:

    T4G removed the May 23, 2013 STATEMENT FROM MARK DEVER, LIGON DUNCAN, and ALBERT MOHLER which supported CJ.

    T4G posted CJ’s statement on July 1, 2013 in which CJ says his T4G friends continue to support him.

    Like

  36. A Mom,

    Clearly they are in this thing together. They removed the statement of support and they posted CJ’s letter which says T4G continue to support him. They are allowing him a limited platform, but removed most references to him except old sermons/teachings.

    Like

  37. It would be interesting to know what the speakers think about CJ’s T4G post on July 1, 2013: Duncan, Mohler, Dever, Platt, Piper, DeYoung, Anyabwile, and Chandler. Question: Do you support CJ?

    Like

Thanks for participating in the SSB community. Please be sure to leave a name/pseudonym (not "Anonymous"). Thx :)

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s