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It’s not always easy growing up in a Christian fundamentalist homeschool environment. I have been seeing an increasing number of homeschool graduates “coming out” in more ways than one. As a Christian homeschooling mom of over 20 years, we didn’t think about our own kids coming out sexually. That just was not an option that was discussed in our fundamentalist circles. A lifestyle other than heterosexual was not a consideration. Well, it’s happening. Some former homeschool kids (HKs) are in fact coming out. Some are doing it quietly, others are more bold and telling their stories publicly or online. They are experiencing responses from their Christian fundamentalist parents, some not so positive.
In light of those negative responses, one former HK has written an article in an effort to help Christians make that difficult connection with their LGBT adult kids: 7 Ways Christian homeschooling parents can support LGBT kids.
The blog author identified as “Theo” writes:
Some background for consideration: I am a homeschool graduate, now in college. I identify (right now) as queer and [transgender]. I no longer practice my parents’ religion, but I grew up in a conservative-evangelical Christian community. Certain aspects of that culture have not only made it difficult for me to understand and accept myself, but also deeply harmed my relationship with my parents.
I realize that Christian/homeschooling parents may not be eager to take parenting advice from someone like me, someone who turned out very differently than my own parents expected and hoped I would, but…my parents did their best to give me a Christian education. To raise me to serve Jesus. I became who I am anyway, in spite of their efforts to control my future. I hope that parents in this culture can try hard to listen to the stories my peers are bravely sharing, so they can learn healthier ways to love and parent their kids.
As a Christian homeschooling parent, I understand it would be a challenge to read those words. Out of our brood of seven, three are adult children. We have seen our adult children make mistakes that sometimes make us cringe. This parenting thing is tough. One adult daughter has spoken publicly about leaving her faith and walking away from her conservative Christian upbringing. Does this bother me? You bet it does. It’s difficult to see a child abandon the faith/morals/convictions we as parents tried to instill in our children. Do her choices make us love her any less? Of course not. Is it difficult to maintain a relationship with someone so different from us? Yes, it can be.
How do we bridge that gap? In Theo’s article, he speaks directly to parents. He is attempting to give us insight into what will draw homeschool kids like him to us. Don’t we want our children to be able to have a relationship and connect with us? After our children become adults, that concept is not a given, it is a privilege. I repeat – it is a privilege and a gift to have our adult children be a part of our lives.
Here are a few of the ways Theo mentioned that we can support LGBT adult children:
- Create an environment of approachability.
- When you tell us that you love us “no matter what,’’ prove it.
- Treat other LGBT people in your life with kindness and respect.
- Don’t interpret any point of divergence as a personal attack.
Those ideas seem reasonable, don’t they? Actually, they would line up with Jesus’ basic command for Christians to love. This seems almost too basic. Parents should be able to handle these suggestions, shouldn’t we?
Well, sadly, this is not so obvious or important to others. I was disappointed to read an article written by a homeschooling father who did not have kind words to say about Theo’s ideas. This article comes from Fred Butler. Butler’s Hip and Thigh blog is rated #244 in Jared Moore’s yearly top 250 Christian blogs. Here is Fred Butler’s bio:
My name is Butler. I’m a graduate of Arkansas State University and The Master’s Seminary. I currently live in the LA area and work at Grace to You, the radio ministry of John MacArthur, where I have the honor of coordinating and directing the volunteer ministries. My wife and I have five kids and we are all actively involved at Grace Community Church.
I began this blog in 2005 to have an outlet for my opinions both theological and secular. I don’t have any particular emphasis with my blog except for promoting a high view of God, the authority of Scripture, and a biblically grounded worldview.
I have another website called Fred’s Bible Talk where you can listen to some of my devotional teaching I give to my volunteers and I have a secondary blog called Biblical Premillennialism.
If you must get a hold of me my personal email is fivepointer (@) gmail (dot) com
Butler begins his article by saying he is responding to Theo’s article. When reading the following quoted paragraph, try to pretend you are Theo, an LGBT former homeschool kid who was raised in a fundamentalist Christian environment. Tell me if you’re feeling the love from this Bible teacher and homeschooling parent. Butler describes Theo’s article:
It’s one of those cathartic rants dripping with emotion that complains about how “my life has been ruined because I was homeschooled by crazy Fundamentalist parents.” The Homeschool Apostates, I mean, Anonymous blog also cross-posted it at their place. I thought I would use it as a spring board to offer a rebuttal and response to the author.
and then this:
Look it. We all understand that you were raised in a wacky, Fundamentalist atmosphere. You’re ashamed and embarrassed about your past. Now that you have freed yourself from the shackles of your Fundy upbringing, you believe you have ascended to a fuller life. We get it, okay.
Apparently in an attempt to build a bridge between himself and the LGBT author, Butler then gives his religious background from childhood to adulthood, saying he started off in the United Methodist church and then in high school, moved to Arkansas where he attended a Baptist church. All niceties come to an abrupt stop there.
Here is the new tone:
You seriously need to keep in mind that your so-called new found “faith journey” is just as warped and twisted as your parents[sic] Fundamentalism.
If I may, let me offer seven truths I think you need to seriously ponder. I warn you now that they will sting; but you need to read them.
Butler condescendingly shares with Theo seven truths of his own. Here is a quick sampling:
- Consider the fact that you may be wrong – fatally so.
- If you are actively involved with a “faith community” now, you are blindly being led to the destruction of your soul.
- Treat the Evangelical Christians in your life with mutual love and respect.
- Don’t interpret any pointed criticism as an ignorant, bigoted attack against you.
You get the idea of the tone. Did he say treat Christians with love and respect? Ok. Just checking. Here’s more love and respect from Mr. Butler. Oh wait, I forgot, Butler wasn’t talking about himself loving and respecting, but the LGBT kid.
You believe your shunning of your parents and their ways is sophisticated, so if they shun you in return, then the feeling is mutual.
Maybe Butler doesn’t realize that many of these fundamental homeschool parents actually shunned their adults children long before their kids shunned them. How do I know? I have read their stories online.
It is nothing new for adult children in their late teens and early twenties to separate from their parents physically, emotionally, and spiritually, and begin to question how they were raised, what they believe, and question what the future holds for them. But I question the heart and attitude displayed by Butler, a current homeschooling father. By the tone reflected in the article, it does not appear that Butler is really trying to build any relationship or reach anyone’s heart. His attitude would probably push any homeschool kid further away. We’ll know more in a few years, if/when perhaps some of Mr. Butler’s grown children eventually distance themselves from their dad.
But that doesn’t seem to matter to Butler. As long as the truth is told, that’s love, right? Butler forgets that these adult kids already know the truth. They have the scripts memorized. Remember, their parents taught them the way in which they should go spiritually. This is nothing new to them. They have all the verses still memorized from childhood. The old scripts aren’t going to work for them anymore.
But then again . . . is Mr. Butler really interested in souls after all? Maybe that list of seven truths is just all talk. Why, you ask?
Check this out. I can’t remember how I stumbled across this, a brief Twitter dialogue between Fred Butler (@Fred_Butler) and JD Hall (@PulpitAndPen).
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In the first tweet at the top, there is the hyperlink to a website (bit.ly/109CVyu) that Butler refers to as needing a “snarky beatdown.” The link takes you to a blog called Homeschoolers Anonymous – a blog community interested in “sharing our experiences growing up in the conservative, Christian homeschooling subculture.”
If you spend some time reading some of the former homeschool kids’ stories there, you will probably read some heart-wrenching personal accounts of abuse and neglect by Christian homeschool parents. Many of the stories are not pretty. Up until now, there was no specific gathering place for former HKs to share their experiences, so this may be the first time HKs have come to realize they are not alone in their challenging and sometimes painful upbringing. Connecting with other with shared backgrounds can begin the process of healing for some. This community is an attempt to do just that.
So what do you suppose this tweet means? Why is Butler proposing that PulpitAndPen aka Pastor J.D. Hall do a “snarky beatdown” of a group of kids who are really struggling with life right now (some even having attempted suicide) and trying to come to grips with some real abuses? You tell me, but it sure doesn’t sound appropriate for a Bible teacher and popular Christian blogger to treat hurting people in such a manner. I really can’t picture Christ behaving in such a way. I just cannot.
I’ve come to the conclusion that those seven truths may have some element of truth in them, but I seriously question the heart behind the entire article. Yes, Mr. Butler, that was a “snarky beatdown,” and this homeschool mom is calling it as she sees it: R.U.D.E.
But the wisdom from above is first pure,
then peaceable, gentle, open to reason,
full of mercy and good fruits,
impartial and sincere.
James 3:17
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Related articles
- 7 Ways Christian Homeschooling Parents Can Support LGBT Kids: Theo’s Thoughts (homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com)
photo credit: Guillaume Paumier via photopin cc
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Great post. I’m glad you did a breakdown of this because I saw it being posted all around, but didn’t have time to deconstruct it. Apostate does have a fun ring to it, though!
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The issue of how Christians treat those who identify as LGBT is certainly a sensitive one. Our sexuality is an important part (it is not the only important part) of our identities as humans. I believe that the bible is pretty clear on homosexuality being wrong, first off. HOWEVER, I also believe that the way many in the church treat LGBTs is deplorable. I’m not considering only people like Westboro Baptist either. There are many in mainstream churches and denominations that I am ashamed of how they talk about homosexuals and how they treat them. There is a severe lack of grace on their part. This Butler dude is a prime example from the snippets I read in this post.
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Oh, Fred. Fred, Fred, Fred. It seems that he is as guilty of doing what he claims these homeschooled young adults are doing. His condescending tone and words are not lost in his writing. However, it seems that it is acceptable for him to be this way, because he offers “truth.” *Sigh*
For many years I worried and feared over my kids “losing their faith.” I have come to give up that “fear” and realize that their faith is not mine to control. That is between them and God. I can only offer guidance and model how I believe Jesus wants us to treat others.
At this stage in my life, I have made it my goal to be as accepting of my kid’s future partners and to treat them as one of my own. If they were to come out to us as being gay, I would treat their partner with every bit of love as I have for my own kid.
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JoeJoe: Do we treat people who are in adultery with this tone? How about people who are gluttons? When is this tone ever appropriate? Look how Jesus dealt with the woman at the well. He didn’t mince words, but he told her in a loving way. Just because someone is a sinner does not give us the excuse to sin in our method of communicating. This in-your-face style pushes people away.
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JA- That is my point exactly. It seems to me that Christians for some reason elevate homosexuality as a sin far greater than other sins. It is a sin to be sure, but I don’t see it as neccessarily greater than any other sin. In my personal oppinion, I believe adultery is probably a worse sin. Nothing breaks apart families like adultery does, not even homosexuality (although many Christians will tell you that homosexuality is the downfall of the family, which I don’t buy into).
Bible-thumping, in-your-face, “you’re going to hell because you are (fill in the blank)” speech is hateful and has no room in the church.
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“By the tone reflected in the article, it does not appear that Butler is really trying to build any relationship or reach anyone’s heart.”
This may be blindingly obvious to everyone else. But it just dawned on me that this really is true. He has no desire to build relationships with anyone, especially LGBT anyones. I’m pretty sure he has objectified the entire human race. He probably doesn’t even see his family as being independent beings apart from him. This is one of those strange things where you think it’s clear and obvious that something should be a desirable goal for everyone and realize it’s not the case. It’s kinda scary.
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Do unto others… If it were me involved in my besetting sin that becomes public, how would I want other Christians to relate to me. In a loving way to restore me and help me overcome (not condone) my particular sin.
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Sorry, to finish my thought. I should treat those involved in sin the same way I would want to be treated.
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“I’ve come to the conclusion that those seven truths may have some element of truth in them, but I seriously question the heart behind the entire article. Yes, Mr. Butler, that was a “snarky beatdown,” and this homeschool mom is calling it as she sees it: R.U.D.E.”
Who are we to judge other people’s hearts? I thought that was God’s business.
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Okay, after watching the GTY crowd closely for about the past year on blogs and hearing some things and now this I truly am wondering…do they just read any new member to that church their rights at the door? Im thinking they would sound like this…
“You have the right to become arrogant. Anything you say or do may be used against other people as you are now the court of law….”
I’m just sayin….
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B4B said: “Who are we to judge other people’s hearts? I thought that was God’s business.”
My response to B4B:
“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.” John 13:35
Hmm, God doesn’t seem to have a problem with others knowing who His disciples are. And He tells us what to look for, too.
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JA you have tried to capture as accurately as you can regarding the comments and tone of those involved. Thumbs up!
Someone made a comment (TWW?) regarding the lack of emotional connection in certain Chrn belief systems. This seems to be an observable factor that can be tracked by those interested in studying this phenomenon in this type of Chty.
Unfortunately, Christian Homeschooling becomes bent because of the belief systems of said Christian parents. There are lots of people who homeschool, both secular and Chrn. Many kids win academic awards and have a wonderful relationship with their parents. So why do some attain/achieve/have emotions that are in harmony while other kids are shattered emotionally and their belief system is woefully fractured?? That’s where the rubber meets the road. The statistics and stories from the HA blog highlight the dysfunction.
It is a peculiar kind of spiritual abuse. It looks so ‘Christian’ and so beneficial, but in the observation of the fruit in the end, it has been damaged and harmed at a core level. The kind of pompous, arrogant, and ‘my way or the highway’ kind of Christianity that people like Fred model is far too broken and too offensive no matter how you slice it.
It would be good for these young adults to work through their pain and disillusionment with a professional counselor when they are ready. Turning to the LGBT lifestyle, although it may appear to be the ‘better’ way to go, still holds heartbreak and disappointment for them as well. There is no easy road. Most people who have been emotionally harmed at their core could use a professional to help them dig deeper and examine where they have been, where they are now, and what the future might hold for them.
There are all kinds of wounding ways going on and among those young and vulnerable. We know that Christ is the answer for the heart cry of the soul. Yet, by being stung by this kind of Christianity, there is not much hope that Christ and a healthy experience of Body life will be given a second chance.
In a nutshell, people are looking for the caring ‘mother-heart of God’ not the disciplinarian father in heaven kind of God–portrayed in all too many church cultures. The kind of God that I have come to know yearns over his creation.
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Teri – I hear you!
Someone sent this via e-mail:
R.U.D.E. =
really
utterly
disgustingly
egregious
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I think mutual respect should rule the day. If the child knows the parent does not approve they they should not expose their parents to their choice. If the parent knows the child is settled on this choice then the sinfulness of the choice should not be the topic of every conversation.
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I get the intent of the post, and agree. But what I’m concerned with, and what doesn’t seem to be addressed, it appears from all the links in the HK’s orginial post, he’s using his post as a tool to convert his parents (and all readers) to an “accepting” belief system – read: no longer consider homosexuality sin.
I thought his article was interesting on its own merit, but after reviewing the links, it was hard to not reach a different conclusion. Now, I think that is OK, if he points out that’s what he wants to do, but he didn’t.
The bottom line issue is being stated: “parents (homeschoolers or not really), need to change their religious beliefs to embrace their kids’ new found sexuality and secular humanism, or, they are fundamentalists.”
I think we are pretty mainstream in our family (read: not a fundi), but I’m sure that could be argued by our friends. 🙂 At any rate, I hope to hear your thoughts on all the links the HK published in his article, bcause those sites, and some of my friend too, want Christians to change their beliefs, not just be accepting.
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Barb: I think I can add to what your really valid point is with some personal experience.
I was not a hk I was at first catholic-schooled, BUT when I was 13, a really impressionable age, my parents moved from Ohio to Texas and public-schooled me. Now where my problem happened is when I tried to befriend the kids who were achieving things, which in my school was the popular kids, who turned out to be closed off and unreceptive to new people and very dissociative to people who did not dress like them, talk like them, whereas the kids not achieving at (but very adept at hanging out in back of the school smoking) were all VERY open to new people and VERY kind.
How does this add to your idea? Well, if people in church become so full of self-righteous indignation that they close off new people and or cut off people who go the least bit astray then guess where those people end up? Back in the very receptive, very friendly, very understanding WORLD.
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Julie Anne, I agree that homosexual practice is sinful and that those engaged in it need to have Law and Gospel preached to them until they repent. However, a lot of what passes for Law preaching are really arrogant and self-righteous polemics that are more about evangelicals feeling good about themselves for being so godly and influencing politics.
“Love the sinner, hate the sin” *is* pretty much a vacuous phrase. The question is, can you firmly believe that someone is engaged in sinful behavior while still loving and caring for him? Are you witnessing to someone for your own benefit or his?
I also think that, while the so-called “ex-gay” therapy is junk science, people with SSA who want to be celibate (or, indeed, anyone who has struggled with sexuality) could benefit from some sort of cognitive behavioral therapy combined with spiritual growth. People who don’t have an innate proclivity (as in “gay until graduation”) could probably move their desires in a heterosexual direction, while others could develop a healthy way to manage their desires.
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Julie Anne
Hmmm? Fred Butler? Seems he banned me from his blog awhile back. 😉
So – Who wudda thunk it – Fred Butler, works at – “Grace To You” – Radio Ministry.
And – is “actively involved at Grace Community Church.”
Both representing good old John MacArthur.
But? – Did anyone notice much “Grace” in Fred Butler’s words?
Seems to me, Fred Butler, is helping to prove the latest theory about…
When you find “Grace” in the “Title” of a Corrupt Religious System…
You will NOT find much “Grace” in “the Leaders” of that Religious System.
You will NOT find much “Grace” in “the Followers” of that Religious System.
Hmmm? New rule of thumb…
Do NOT trust, Do NOT join, Do NOT give money to, any “Religious System”
that has the word “Grace” in their “Title” until…
You have observed “The Elder/Overseers” for at least two years.
And – Know Them…
And we beseech you, brethren, **to know them** (*know = perceive, notice, discern,)
which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
1 Thess 5:12 KJV
And can honestly say – They are living examples of…
1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage.” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
2 – Lowliness of mind. Phil 2:3 KJV
3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves. Phil 2:3 KJV
4 – Submitting “One to Another.” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
5 – Prefering others before themselves. Rom 12:10 KJV
6 – Being clothed with humility. 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
7 – NOT “Execising Authority” like the Gentiles.” Mark 10:42-43 KJV
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Of course, this flies in the face of the anti-psychology perspective many people have.
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I agree with :
Ric
JUNE 11, 2013 @ 11:25 AM
I think that aspect of Theo’s article has not been addressed..
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Wesley Roy: Even if Theo is basically suggesting that he thinks his fundamental Christian parents should leave their beliefs and even Christianity behind and join the world so they can embrace him as their son, does it give Fred Butler license to be flippant and unkind and almost…dare I say hostile in his statements regarding this situation?
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My response to Julie Anne:
We, as believers have NO business to publically or privately judge another’s heart. I can smell rotten fruit all day long but I cannot pass judgment. Only God can see a person’s heart. The best we can do is examine fruit and think there might be a problem. Believers have been know to have ‘love one another issues’. We are still prone to sin. there is a difference between judging ‘fruit’ and judging hearts. I pray that you will someday be able to see that.
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I’m crazy busy getting ready for a sale. Wesley, you and Ric both may be right about Theo wanting parents to change. And when I get a chance I’ll take a closer look, too.
But think about this: if Theo is an unbeliever, then why is that up for judgment? We need to remove that out of the picture. We cannot expect unbelievers to follow Christian guidelines, can we?
However, we can look at behavior of Christians. Sometimes people challenge me. Sometimes they are right and sometimes I don’t agree with their assessment. I think push back is good and healthy amongst Christians. We should be holding ourselves accountable. You won’t find me turning off my comments when you disagree with me unless you side with abusers because of this. I am not perfect and if I’m lacking sleep, grumpy, etc, you better believe I can sin. I also type fast and hit enter too fast sometimes. Danger!!! 🙂
Fred’s blog is public. He advertises it on Twitter. He is well known and respected for his biblical knowledge as a bible teacher. So I ask you, ss he inviting relationship or pushing relationship away by his tone? Is this Christ-like behavior? I guess another good question would be, does tone and attitude matter?
And also take a look at that tweet. Does that sound like someone who cares about hurting people or does it sound like he wants to hurt people? Serious question here. Look at those words: snarky beatdown. Who are they trying to snarkily beat down and why? Is that proper behavior for a Christian against an unbeliever? Or proper amongst believers?
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Teri, Fred Butler’s statements were not much different than yours implying that those who see homosexuality as a sin and embrace Christianity are on another planet.
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B4B – -I believe that’s what I’m doing – examining the evidence I see and questioning. I agree that only God can judge the heart, but He has given us wisdom to notice outward signs. We do this all the time – judging someone’s character, deciding how close we want to get to them relationally – in business, in friendship, even in finding a new pastor.
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Wesley Roy: Let me be VERY clear as I am new here; homosexuality is a aberrant and incredible sin against the God I love. I am in no way implying that those who see this as a sin myself WHOLE heartedly included are on another planet. We are NOT to be of the world. I am not of the world. But I am not for giving my Christian brothers right to be mean and hostile to those who are. That is not of God, that is of evil. People who do this are in need of a Christian attitude check…STAT.
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JA you would have to tell me was Jesus inviting relationship when he called people snakes and dirty graves? Was Christ being Christ-like? I think Jesus’ tone is evident in those “Woe unto you” passages and His address to the church in Laodicea when He told them “You make me sick”. Through all of this Scripture is clear that Jesus was seeking to save the lost and drawing people to himself not pushing them away. We see it worked in the life of Nicodemeaus and Paul. Jesus makes it clear that different tones are necessary for different people and different circumstances.
As for “snarky beatdown”, I think that is what Teri and many others have given me here. 🙂 I am none the worse for it and I have resisted the desire to respond in kind because I know that is what they are expecting. 😉
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Wesley – – I’m looking at your key words “His address to the church.” Fred is not talking to the church, but an unbeliever. Please show me where Jesus talks to unbelievers in a rude way.
I deserve a snarky beatdown every now and then. If you are a fellow Believer, bring it on if I deserve it.
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Teri you have been VERY clear. 🙂 I think I addressed the “mean” aspect in my previous post but as an addenda. Theo cannot relegate all that his parents Christian beliefs, which define, them to the trash heap and not expect push back. Approval and affection are not synonymous.
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JA Jesus called people who rejected Him as Messiah snakes, hypocrites, and filthy tombs and one of them Nicodemus repented and believed on Christ.
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Again, Wes, weren’t those all religious people? Nicodemus a Pharisee??
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Anne,
Maybe I’m becoming a bit jaded in my old days, or maybe I spend too much time editing words. Perhaps I see a judgmental attitude where there is none. Yes, they we know we are Christ’s disciples by our love for each other. We can be pretty nasty toward one another too. I don’t care how much I think I know what’s in another man’s heart, what his motives were/are for behaving a certain way, the fact is, I can’t see into another man’s heart. I see a lot of ‘words’ these days here and there in ‘Christian’ blogs that betray the opposite of love for one another, as well as judgmental attitudes. I’m also sure that even we who profess to be Christians can be judgmental and not even realize it. I’ve learned some hard lessons. I probably need to shut up now.
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Wesley Roy: I sincerely do apologize for my last statement, as it really caused a lot of anger to swell up to even think that someone thought I condoned homosexuality and that anger was also CLEAR in my last post (which is actually my maiden name..so go figure!). So for my anger I was wrong and I apologize.
But seriously my first post in response to you was not meant to be snarky at all but a real honest question so Im not sure where that becomes a snarky beatdown.
I would not want you to respond in kind and I do not want to respond that way myself. I would like us to reason together.
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Born4Battle;
As a mother, you can be sure that I make decisions on whether to leave my kids with this person or not. And it’s based on what? behavior/interactions with others. I call that God-given intuition, Holy Spirit guidance, and a good dose of common sense – not in any particular order. If that’s wrong, sue me.
Fred and I have some personal history from last summer during my lawsuit. The fruit exhibited was wretched. Long-time readers will remember it clearly. It is all chronicled in the “BGBC Lawsuit Archives.” I’m sure you could find it if you did a search for his name (search bar is to the right of the screen about half-way down).
This is not about me and my behavior, B4B. Who am I defending and why?
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Oh, I only correct people on my name when I start getting annoyed. My name is Julie Anne, not Anne, not Julie, not Julie Ann. But I’ll cut you a deal – – JA works, too 🙂
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JA,
I’ve run out of ways to try and explain what I am seeing as judgmental comments/statements.
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Julie Anne
They were NOT just “religious people” Jesus called names.
They were “The Religious Leaders”
The only ones I see Jesus giving a hard time to is “The Religious Leaders” of His day.
Jesus hung out with the sinners – the tax collectors – the least of these.
And loved them…
Seems Jesus is NOT happy with “The Religious Leaders” in Mat 23…
Mt 23:1 – The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat…
…do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
…they bind heavy burdens… lay them on men’s shoulders…
…themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
*ALL their works they do for to be seen of men:*
they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Does this sound like anyone we know today???
Who do we know that likes “the chief seats” in the congregation.???”
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Julie Anne said:
JUNE 11, 2013 @ 12:53 PM
Again, Wes, weren’t those all religious people? Nicodemus a Pharisee??
You are creating a false dichotomy JA. An unbeliever is an unbeliever. All humans are innately religious so the flavor unbeliever doesn’t matter. So whether the religion is Judaism, Polytheism, Hedonism, Humanism, etc. it all boils down to the same thing–unbelievers and Jesus was very “snarky” with some unbelievers and they responded by repenting and placing their faith in Christ. So it takes all kinds.
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Fair enough, Born4Battle. I just am not seeing it. If I am blind, someone please call me on it. I’d like to know.
Can you address the situation about me as a mother making judgment calls about who I leave my children with? Is that acceptable to do or not?
I’m lacking sleep, but usually I can make a connection. I’m just not getting it.
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Oh, Amos, you mean religious leaders – like Bible teachers?
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What!?!? Now “Bible Teacher” is a dirty word?
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Seems to me, Fred Butler, is helping to prove the latest theory about…
When you find “Grace” in the “Title” of a Corrupt Religious System…
You will NOT find much “Grace” in “the Leaders” of that Religious System.
You will NOT find much “Grace” in “the Followers” of that Religious System.
An alternate application of “People’s Republic of Tyranny” from TV Tropes, where the more adjectives there are about “Democracy” in a country’s official name, the nastier a dictatorship it is.
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Oh boy, I strongly disagree with you on this, Wesley. Think of the ramifications of this and why Jesus would be so strong against False Teachers. False Teachers lead people astray – – they are so dangerous. Come on, you of all people should get this. See, now I’m going to give you a snarky beatdown because of who you are and Who you represent 🙂 Theo does not represent God. You are different.
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Wes said: “What!?!? Now “Bible Teacher” is a dirty word?”
Is the position itself bringing glory to God or self? That would be my first clue.
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Julie Anne
Yes – Much agreed…
“I call that God-given intuition, Holy Spirit guidance, and a good dose of common sense – not in any particular order.”
————-
But he that is spiritual *judgeth all things,*
1 Cor 2:15
Judge – Thayers
to investigate, examine, enquire into, question.
determine the excellence or defects of any person or thing
————-
*Prove all things;* hold fast that which is good.
1Thess 5:21
Prove – Thayers
to test, examine, prove, scrutinise
to see whether a thing is genuine or not, as metals
————-
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but *try* the spirits ( discern, test, examine,)
whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1John 4:1
Try – Thayers
to test, examine, prove, scrutinise
to see whether a thing is genuine or not, as metals
———-
We are warned about – False apostles, Many False prophets, False teachers
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Julie Anne
Hmmm?
“Oh, Amos, you mean religious leaders – like Bible teachers?”
Tired or not – this is a great question.
“Is the position itself bringing glory to God or self? That would be my first clue.”
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Amos makes a very good point! Agreed. My point is that everything that ‘is called’: Bible and/or Christian do not always honor the Lord and his character–who is supposed to be behind them. Jesus came to his own, but they did not receive him. One huge factor was the teaching of their ‘religious’ OT teachers of the Bible. How they acted and the heart motivation behind their religious ideals was called out by Christ himself. Their belief system was a floating balloon that Christ took aim and poked severely. For that, they conspired to take his life. Let’s examine what we are dealing with in our context today.
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Julie Anne
And Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called Rabbi – Teacher…
But – Today – “Bible Teachers” “Ignore what jesus taught – Go figure… 😉
Mat 23:8
But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren.
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JA Scripture is clear that God is no respecter of persons. Now His treatment of lost people differed because people are different not because some were “more” or a “different kind” of lost. Paul explains Jesus’ actions when he speaks of becoming all things to all people to win some. Some people need to be handled with kid gloves and some people resent being handled with kid gloves. Some people take hints well and some only understand blunt clear statements. Some people are aware of the sinfulness of their sin and need only be pointed to grace and some are not aware of the sinfulness of their sin and must be made aware of their need of grace before being introduced to grace.
As for Fred Butler being a false teacher, I cannot speak on that matter. I am not aware of what he preaches, teaches, or practices except in this one isolated incident. So I would not label him a false teacher simply because he is tactless in his approach. Is he in error about the sinfulness of homosexuality? No. Is his presentation of this fact to everyone’s liking? No and neither is anyone else’s. Fred’s statements are just as one-sided as the responses to them have been here as B4B has pointed out. Is that necessarily wrong? No.
Thanks Teri for the apology and it is accepted. No problem your snark was only level 1. I have experienced much worse. 🙂
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Uh-oh, Barb, you might get in trouble with your comment. You said “heart motivation.” Watch out.
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Julie Anne Said:
JUNE 11, 2013 @ 1:43 PM
Wes said: “What!?!? Now “Bible Teacher” is a dirty word?”
Is the position itself bringing glory to God or self? That would be my first clue.
_________
What if it is just a statement of fact? No grasp for power……..No seeking of attention…..just a statement of fact. JA you might have to change the name of your blog to “Grace Spiritual Sounding Board” if people are not allowed a little more liberty who do not toe the John 13:35 line as defined by those participating here.(snark added) 🙂
JA I know it is not your intention to come across as graceless towards those who you think are being graceless.
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If Teri’s snark was Level 1, I’m busted. 😉
Wes, we weren’t talking about Fred being a false teacher. We were talking about who was Jesus addressing when he used his most angry words. I said I don’t think he used his most angry words with unbelievers, but with religious teachers/leaders/false teachers.
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Julie Anne
Seems to me, Jesus/God, wants to be our “ONE” – “Teacher.”
John 14:26
But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you ALL things…
John 6:45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
that *He might instruct thee:*
Psalms 32:8
I will *instruct thee* and *teach thee*
in the way which thou shalt go: *I will guide thee* with mine eye.
———–
And we a warned about trusting “Mere Fallible Humans.”
Jer 17:5
Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man….
Mark 13:22
For false Christ’s (false anointed ones) and “false prophets” shall rise,
and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were *false prophets* also among the people,
even as there shall be *false teachers* among you,
————
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Julie Anne said:
JUNE 11, 2013 @ 2:06 PM
If Teri’s snark was Level 1, I’m busted.
Wes, we weren’t talking about Fred being a false teacher. We were talking about who was Jesus addressing when he used his most angry words. I said I don’t think he used his most angry words with unbelievers, but with religious teachers/leaders/false teachers.
________
I don’t see a dichotomy of unbelievers in Scripture. I would like to because there are certain behaviors that I find particularly abhorrent but that is personal not biblical. Now we could reason that Theo’s attempt to turn people from the clear teaching of Scripture on homosexuality is false teaching in direct opposition to what God teaches in Scripture. Now he is a false teacher worthy of the strongest denouncements possible.
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Julie Anne
It’s been my experience…
When someone is looking for “Living Water?”
It tastes best – And means the most – When they dig their own wells… 🙂
Jesus said – My Sheep – Hear My Voice – and – Follow Me… John 10:27
Jesus never asked His Disciples to follow “Mere Fallible Humans.”
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Check “Julie Ann,” “Juli Anne,” “Anne.” Still missing “Juli Ann” and “Ann,” and (don’t forget) “Ms. Juli(e)” and “Ms. Ann(e).”
Everyone knows that the letter “e” is of the devil.
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This is always an interesting topic for me to follow. I have an immediate family member who is homosexual. This has taken it out of the theological debate realm and into the reality of relating as a Christian to someone I deeply love who is homosexual.
Yes, I agree that the Bible classifies homosexuality as a sin. It also classifies lying, bearing false witness, coveting, adultery, fornication and murder as sins. If all believers were scrutinized under the same microscope for every sin as we scrutinize for homosexuality we would all fall short. I’m often reminded of Jesus’ words to those who wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery: “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.” It’s ironic that in the political realm, Republicans, the “family values” party, spend three times as much as Demcrats on adult entertainment during convention times. It’s more than a little hypocritical of them to bash homosexuals. Don’t think the LGBT community doesn’t notice this.
Having spent time around my relative and their partner, I’ve experienced their kindness, compassion, courtesy, hospitality and generosity. I strive to return the same to them. I hope my life will be a better example of the love of God to them than “Christian” leaders who would condemn them and then cover up the sexual abuses of children in their churches. I think the church should do a little spring cleaning of its own house first before it starts confronting everyone else with their sins.
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I think what Julie Anne is singling out is the aspect of respect. Whether approaching a non-believer or a Christian, there is a need to try to begin with an attitude of respect, as human beings, and not know-it-alls! If there is no initial ‘care’ in the mix, then any kind of pointing to the Good News of Christ will be useless from the start.
Should we be like OT prophets pointing out the flaws in the Jewish belief system? Obviously, not! If we have only one solitary way of talking, that is, preaching ‘at people’, with a tone of huge condescension, how will that create an opportunity to explore the measureless love of Christ when there is no reason to have the door open even a crack.
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Born4Battle,
You have from time to time objected to what you took to be judging people’s hearts. I’m not coming up with Scripture that specifically says we are not to judge another person’s heart. Maybe the search terms I’m using just aren’t working in my electronic bible, which is the ESV. I find Scripture related to judging generally, but nothing specifically related to judging another person’s heart. If you don’t mind taking the time, could you point me to the particular Scripture you are thinking of, if any?
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Wesley Roy:
There is a plethora of portentous religious people popping pompous projectiles, left and right.
To pick on this Theo and then Teri and JA while giving wide latitude to such as Fred…well, I suspect you are bored.
The battlefront is —————-→
See them? Get’m cowboy!
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Wesley said:
I disagree. What is the definition of a false teacher? Where has Theo claimed to be a teacher? No where. Theo has already self-identifed as an unbeliever, so who would take Theo’s words as someone with “teacher” status? No one.
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Redirecting back to the OP… Commenting because this is vastly interesting to me (the post, not the preceding comments).
As JuliE AnnE’s oldest daughter – said daughter who no longer identifies as a Christian – I can only commend my mother for how she has acted, loved, and been there for me for these past 5.5 years since I moved out. I can accept that it is not the easiest thing to “create an environment of approachability” – even more so when my dad isn’t as accepting of my current life’s choices, but at least he’s civil and somewhat friendly. He seems to have given up on “preaching” at me.
Theo’s final point I can tell is spoken from personal experience: “Don’t interpret any point of divergence as a personal attack.” I’ve noticed that some Christians raise their hk in a bubble… fiercely guarding them from any sort of deviation from what they want their children to see, understand, and relate with (at least until they are deemed able to “stand their ground” and “hold fast to the faith”). It’s the main reason why I felt I had to physically move out. You see it wouldn’t have been possible for me to doubt my faith and remain in my father’s house – it would have created too many arguments and disagreements as my dad would consider any divergence as me attacking everything he had spent 21+ years building (the Christian foundation). At least after my moving out, he still felt like he could “filter” what came back into the family.
Please, please, please – read Theo’s recommendations again:
Create an environment of approachability.
When you tell us that you love us “no matter what,’’ prove it.
Treat other LGBT people in your life with kindness and respect.
Don’t interpret any point of divergence as a personal attack.
And it doesn’t apply to JUST people who identify as LGBT, but to anyone who is currently living apart from what their parents “thought” they were raising them to be. It seems SO simple, but that is Love. You want your wayward children to come back? You probably won’t even have a chance if you don’t.
~A wayward daughter.
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I absolutely agree Mr. Butler’s tone and attitude would only alienate further any unbeliever. It’s apparent that he thinks highly of his achievements but doesn’t value compassion and love as something as worthwhile. I’ve experienced his brand of tough love and it’s found lacking. It’s all about shaming.…trying to feel superior to others. Kind of like a bully??
Wesley: Jesus treated the Pharisees and false teachers different than for example the woman caught in adultery. Are you saying that Jesus would/should treat the LGBT unbeliever like the Pharisees? He saved the most scathing rebukes for those who heaped heavy legalistic burdens on people but didn’t have the common sense to love those that were truly hurting.
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Speaking as an adult who was homeschooled, someone who got all those awards, scholarships, and two degrees, and someone who everyone who knows my parents believes that I have an amazing relationship with them… My belief system is fractured and I am suffering from a lot of fallout of my “amazing” homeschool education.
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Hannah, You are not my “wayward” daughter, you are my precious #1 daughter. I love you. I will always love you no matter what . . . . period. Thanks for sharing your voice here. I think it’s important for others to see the real deal. There is a lot of fallout in the Homeschool Movement. I could have lost you. That’s such a scary thought. We are very fortunate. I converse with quite a few other HKs who have no relationship with their parents. That absolutely breaks my heart. They don’t know what they are missing.
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forgedimagination: I’m so sorry about the pain and suffering you have gone through in your homeschool experience. There are so many just like you out there. I think we are just beginning to see a wave of HKs expressing their pain. I hope that in that process some parents will take an honest look at themselves and will reach out to their adult kids. I’m going to do whatever I can to be completely honest because I contributed to the homeschool movement (without really realizing what it was). You always have a place here to share. We’re good “listeners” here and my readers truly care.
Thanks for sharing! ~ja
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forgedimagination, Hannah, Theo if you happen to be reading, any other readers who may share experiences similar to yours, I wish to say I am sorry. It ought not to have been so. I wish also to come forward, if only in a small way, to confess that I participated in many of the religious ideologies, patriarchal attitudes, and corrupt views of how to raise children under which you have suffered. For this I apologize. I was wrong. I absolutely did not model our loving Heavenly Father.
May each of you find full freedom from the many forms of bondage we parents tend to try to lay on our children; may each of you find complete release from the ways we often endeavor to turn you into extensions and alter egos of ourselves. May each of you know, and be, and live the life of the person each of you, individually, were born to be. Praise God that you, because of your experiences, are not likely to make the mistakes we, your parents, made.
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“If I may, let me offer seven truths I think you need to seriously ponder. I warn you now that they will sting; but you need to read them.”
Ah, yes, I’ve heard a very similar statement, from a person who planned to scold, rip into, belittle, and otherwise condemn me for something I had not even done. And for things which were not as she interpreted them. Funny how people can justify their abusive attacks with “you need to hear this.”
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Well, this all looks like another great example of “Nothing makes Christians angrier than people who sin differently from them.”
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JA, There is nothing wrong with Moms and Dads making judgments for the reasons you mention. You are judging what you plainly see. We are unable, not being God and all, to pass judgment against the heart of another. That’s all I am saying.
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Hannah said, “And it doesn’t apply to JUST people who identify as LGBT, but to anyone who is currently living apart from what their parents “thought” they were raising them to be. It seems SO simple, but that is Love. You want your wayward children to come back? You probably won’t even have a chance if you don’t.”
This is so very true. It got me thinking back to my own experiences. When I was in college, I went through a time of doubt and rebellion. It may not have looked like rebellion to most people. I wasn’t a big partier, drinker, and never got into drugs. I didn’t even completely step away from the faith. I did, however, have a three year relationship with a girl who very much not a Christian. It may not be the most scandalous thing in the world to say, but it was certainly not a healthy, God-honoring relationship. In many ways, being in that relationship kept dragging me away from my relationship with God. The Bible also says that if we are Christians we should not be married (and by extension on the road to marrying) a non-Christian. I knew that, but decided to follow my own path rather than God’s.
My parents knew that the relationship wasn’t one I should be in. They made it clear to me that that is what they believed and would always believe, and that any negative consequences that came because of the relationship, would be because I made that choice. HOWEVER, they also made it clear that it was my decision to make, and even if they didn’t support the decision itself, they would love and support me, and they would love the one I was with.
A few years after the relationship ended, and I had become engaged to the wonderful, godly woman who is now my wife, my mom spoke to me about my previous relationship. She told me that when I was in that relationship, she prayed that it would end, because she knew it wasn’t right. She prayed that I would be the one to end it. She also prayed that I wouldn’t have my heart broken and that I would follow God’s will and his path for my life. She also told me, however, that if the relationship continued, and I ended up marrying this person, that she and my dad would be there to support us, love us, and accept that woman into the family.
My parents are by no means perfect, but I feel very blessed to have the parents that I do. I believe that they really love me, have done their best to raise me AND to release me. I feel that they have done the best they can to harbor an environment of approachability and support, while respecting my right to chose my own life and trusting me life to God. I feel especially blessed knowing how many children didn’t grow up with this opportunity. I don’t know why I was given that blessing and others weren’t, but I am thankful I was. This is the kind of attitude ALL parents should have with their children, regardless of the circumstances.
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Born4Battle,
Since you have not pointed me to Scripture that says we are not to judge another person’s heart, I will take a bold step and suppose (until corrected) that there is no such Scripture. Further, I will boldly proclaim that this commonly accepted principle involves a subtle but dangerous twisting of Scripture. True, we are not to judge in the sense of wishing evil on somebody or holding them in contempt. However, the not-found-in-Scripture prohibition of judging hearts gets twisted into a prohibition or cutting off of discernment.
Far from prohibiting discernment, Scripture gives us the means by which we may judge (as in discern) hearts. For example: “The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.” (Luke 6:45, ESV). And: “For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.” (Luke 12:34, ESV). And: ““Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad, for the tree is known by its fruit.” (Matthew 12:33, ESV).
forgedimagination tells us “My belief system is fractured.” I am not surprised. In far too many cases the words and actions of false teachers reveal that they are dedicated to systems, or whatever, but not really to Jesus. If this involves a judgment, as in discernment, of these false teacher’s hearts, so be it. I make no apology for discerning that which must be destroyed–that we may see Jesus.
“For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ, being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.” (2 Corinthians 10:4-6, ESV).
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Yes. Scripture NEVER says “don’t judge a person’s heart.” It’s true that we can’t definitively say that a professing Christian is going to Hell, but the Bible tells us to warn against corrupt and false teachers (who show bad behavior or use deception to introduce heresies), refute their teachings, and remove them from church leadership.
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Gary,
No scripture needed. Jesus knew what was in a man;s heart, and I’m not Jesus.
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Karl,
It also calls to exercise church discipline properly and with love. How is it love to throw other Christians under the bus, as we have seen all over the blogosphere? Not exactly the topic of this blog, but a good question nonetheless.
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Born4Battle said: “How is it love to throw other Christians under the bus, as we have seen all over the blogosphere? ”
How is it love for Christians to throw unbelievers under the bus as was done to Theo?
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Born4Battle,
You grieve me when you say no Scripture is necessary, especially when you follow up you assertion with another statement I cannot find in Scripture. I believe what Scripture actually says is “But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.” (John 2:24-25, ESV). It does not actually say he knew what was in a man’s heart (unless I am missing a scripture, or unless your translation is different than mine).
While, I will by inference accept your point that Jesus knew (and knows) individual hearts, I nevertheless also submit that it is important to distinguish what Scripture say from what can be inferred from what Scripture says. It is especially important that we not take the conclusions of our inferences and elevate them as carrying the authority of Scripture. It is especially, especially important that we not subject Scripture to our logical inferences. Logical inferences and, therefore, doctrine, must always be made subject to Scripture.
Further, I fail to follow your logical inference when you assert, or seem to assert, that, because Jesus knew what was in a man’s heart, you will not judge (discern) hearts. Jesus also walked and breathed and ate and drank. Are we, therefore, not to walk and eat and breath and drink? Are we not to forgive, and feed the hungry and seek the lost and love and, generally, seek to be like Jesus?
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Exercising church discipline properly (which would include holding an ecclesiastical trial if someone believes that he is not guilty or not a heretic) doesn’t give you license to behave like an arrogant jerk.
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Joe Joe, I hope to be that kind of parent some day. This particular article has already caused me to change the way I will deal with my own kids and others.
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No time to elaborate, but I am beginning to perceive that many (not all) children raised in the home schooling movement have been subjected to the most egregious and destructive kinds of cult-like control.
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“This particular article has already caused me to change the way I will deal with my own kids and others.”
Woohoooooooooooooo!
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Gary W. said: “No time to elaborate, but I am beginning to perceive that many (not all) children raised in the home schooling movement have been subjected to the most egregious and destructive kinds of cult-like control.”
When I realized the destruction it did to me as a mother (and I’m still not done) and looked at what happened to Hannah and started observing her peers and then reading online stories, I was so disturbed. Hannah is right in the middle of the first wave of homeschoolers to be raised in this kind of environment. These HKs are just now speaking out in bigger ways publicly. We have only scratched the surface. You will be hearing/reading more . .
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Julie Anne,
My comment about cult-like control certainly was not directed at you. The fact that you were able to see what you now deem to have been not the best practices tells me that you had neither served nor drunk the kool-aid, as it were. Also, rest assured that it isn’t just home schooling parents who find better child rearing wisdom only as their children come of age. Would that we could all do it over again.
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Gary W. – No worries. I know it wasn’t directed to me, but the shoe fit and I’m wearing it. But now I’d like to kick it off to high heavens. 🙂
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Hindsight is always 20/20, whether you homeschool or not. We find that we could have made better decisions looking backward. There is a lot of wisdom exercised as children learn and grow as well.
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“…but I am beginning to perceive that many (not all) children raised in the home schooling movement have been subjected to the most egregious and destructive kinds of cult-like control.”
On what basis (statistics) is that statement made? I smell more unwarranted generalizations coming (barf!).
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B4B – Have you checked out the Homeschoolers Anonymous blog I linked to in the article? That will give you a sampling of kids coming out of the environment. Now clearly the stories lean to the very negative side and I know there are positive stories, but you can definitely notice patterns of control among the parents.
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Born4Battle,
If you wish to insulate yourself from having to deal with the cold hard realities of the testimonies coming out of the home schooling movement, you can arbitrarily hold out for statistical evidence. If you are interested in the truth, you can start with Julie Anne’s story. It is posted in these pages for all to see. You can go to homeschoolersanonymous.wordpress.com. If you do so, I urgently plead with you to avoid the temptation to rationalize away what your read there. These precious souls are amongst “the least of these,” and we ignore them at our peril.
Personally, I find it rather difficult to discount just how radical the home schooling movement can be, and not just as a recent phenomenon. During my birthday party in 1988 (or maybe it was 1987) I questioned one of the guests about the wisdom of home schooling their children. The response: I WAS LITERALLY, PHYSICALLY ASSAULTED.
It will not be so in every case, but I have personally observed just how radical dedication to THE home schooling movement can be. I have come to believe that, where a family would be dysfunctional with or without the influence of the homeschooling movement, and especially where the father is already inclined towards selfish, authoritarian control, then home schooled children are at great risk—emotionally, spiritually, and all too often physically.
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Wow! I just saw this. So many posts. Way too many to read now. I hate it when I show up after half time. Well, here’s my take.
“Can You Feel The Love Tonight”
by John Elton
There’s a calm surrender to the mores of the day
When the heat of emotion says “I’m made that way.”
A chilling moment, we don’t see clear through.
It’s enough when a graceless preacher says the same to you.
And can you feel the love tonight?
It is where you are?
It’s enough for this wide-eyed onlooker
The news got this far.
And can you feel the irony
how it’s in your face?
It’s enough to make kings and vagabonds
Blush and plead for grace.
There is time for everyone if they only learn
That our twisting falling culture moves us all to burn.
There’s a rhyme and reason to the human flaw
When both sides of social forces stage a coup d’etat.
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Julie Anne, Wesley,
Thank you for your responses… you can see I’m slow at the switch. 🙂
I commented on Butler’s actions, I agreed with the article. I also think the kids article was disingenuous (not judging heart here, but I’m a bit street smart too, I think). It appears the author was baiting the masses and pushing an agenda. Sad. Homeschooling wasn’t his issue, it didn’t need to be on the HA site, IMO. I’ve read quite a bit there and it seems all the kids problems (and I’m over generalizing), from the kids perspectives, was because of abusive fundi homeschooling parents. However, it sounds like the stuff they presented as objective findings, for the most part, could happen (and does) in any home in Name Your Town.
In large part, I’d hoped to hear more on my questions as I was engaging an underlying concern. I guess Butler was the primary discussion point, which is ok. The guy sounded very arrogant and not worth the read. Sadly, other “famous authors” have done similarly without someone there to check their notes. One can be a great writer of books (read: pontificate with your money), but in real life, they may not walk what they are so learned on. This was a sad reaction to the author of the article. The way Jesus spoke to sinners was much different than religious leaders (woman at the well for example – he could have killed her right there for her egregious sins, but he didn’t, he asked her for water and offered her eternal life). What is lacking, is graciousness by people who believe they have the knowledge down pat…
Maybe this question will gain more ground. Why is it, that Reformed Theology has a harsh reputation? Seems many accusations fly towards Reformed Theology as being harsh and unloving. The Butler’s of the world and seemingly those institutions with “grace” in their name, who preach it, tend to back up this perception. This, while Armenian theology doesn’t seem to have the same reputation.
I hope that was clear to the reader.
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Thank you. As one of those adult LGBT HK kids who currently has a….difficult relationship with my still very conservative parents, and deeply honestly wishes there was a way to make it better, has tried for years to the best of my ability, thank you.
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Kagi – My heart really goes out to you. I cannot imagine not having a relationship with my parents. That must be very difficult. I’m so sorry. ~ja
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It’s hard, especially with my dad, with whom I have a number of other issues to confront…he has engaged in some very abusive behaviour, spiritually, verbally and emotionally, over the years, and has yet to see any problem with it or really change his ways. So I’ve had to put some of that distance there myself, just in setting boundaries for my own well-being. But because of his controlling and deeply patriarchal worldview, he takes every point of divergence, as mentioned above, as a personal attack, and that makes it really hard to maintain any kind of relationship.
We have called a sort of ‘cease-fire’ in the last few years and simply stopped talking about anything other than necessities or tv shows that we both happen to like – we have, fortunately, similar taste in watching/reading material, and that has been our only point of common ground for years now. My mother I have at least been able to talk to about a lot of things, even about the problems with the way we were homeschooled, but she just…doesn’t understand where I’m at or why, and thinks she just needs to pray for me harder so I come back into line with their beliefs. I am at least still a Christian, but coming back faith was a long hard struggle for me too.
Anyway, didn’t mean to ramble at you, but I really appreciate the sympathy, empathy and grace in this post. It means a lot just to hear it from someone with your perspective.
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Hi Kagi – No, I really want to read what you have to say, thus the name of this blog “sounding board.” I think you and Hannah probably have a lot in common with similar backgrounds/family dynamics. I tell you what has helped me immensely is having a daughter who shows me grace. Get that – a daughter who has abandoned the faith shows her mom, the Christian, much grace 🙂 Perhaps that will work in your favor, too. It might help to think of your parents as stuck in a cult-like system – because in a way they probably are.
Interestingly, when I think of key people who helped me leave my cult/church, they, too, were people who showed unconditional love/grace. That love/grace thing is powerful!
Thank you so much for sharing, Kagi. I’m glad the post meant something to you. I think this is such a touchy subject for me because I realize how close I was to losing Hannah. Ack – that brings tears to my eyes just to think about it. ~ja
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Have you, or anyone here bothered to fond out the percentage of homeschooled kids come out of it as healthy mature young men and women, as well as far better educated and equipped to compete in the ‘job’ market? Whether or not I have read them all or not in not material to my comment. I’ll leave it at that. I’m probably already under judgment in here as a defender of the bad guys..
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Born4Battle,
You express your suspicion, and maybe you feel, that you are being judged here. When you attempt to shift the focus from real, live, hurting people to impersonal statistics, do I judge that as being inconsistent with the commandment to love our neighbor? Yes, of course that is my judgment. Does this mean I am judging you as a person? No, of course not. I may grieve that your focus appears to be on doctrinal systems and associated causes, rather than on our glorious and loving Lord. But I do not judge you as a person. I have said, and I now again say, I count you as a brother. I recognize that I may be expressing points of view that diverge significantly from yours. However, there really isn’t any need to receive expressions of divergent points of view as personal, ad hominem, l attacks.
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Born4Battle said: Have you, or anyone here bothered to fond out the percentage of homeschooled kids come out of it as healthy mature young men and women, as well as far better educated and equipped to compete in the ‘job’ market?
B4B, I know a lot of HKs who are doing well into adulthood and who do not have any of kinds of residual effects I have discussed. The point is I (and others) have seen a marked increase in troublesome stories coming from the Homeschool Movement. We’d be foolish not to dig deeper and find out what is causing this. That’s what we do here – – look for disturbing patterns and expose them. It’s important to be aware of the signs.
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I would suspect that at this point in time, there are no reliable statistics with regards to the number of homeschooled kids who are damaged (for lack of a better term coming to mind at the moment) as a result of authoritatian, patriarchal parenting. This is a trend that I think is just now beginning to emerge, as the patriarchal homeschool movement was really just gaining steam when I was a kid (I am in my late 20s, and for the record, I went to public school). So many of these kids are just in the past few years becoming mature adults. The idea that many or most homeschool kids grow up in this kind of environment I think would be better called a perception or an assumption. This perception isn’t necessarily a bad one, either though. Homeshooling tends to be very popular with conservative Christians, more so (I think) than with other groups. Within this group is a very loud and convincing movement that involves patriarchal doctrine and authoritarian (or near authoritarian) style parenting. Many of the largest groups that advocate homeschooling adhere to these principles.
Now, I still hear how homeschooled kids tend to have higher ACT/SAT scores, GPAs, and tend to do better with college coursework than public school kids, and are generally better prepared for work outside the home as well. To me this would say that there is still a large number of homeschool kids that grow up in a relatively normal and healthy family, and that homeschooling could be a viable option for many families. My wife and I are stlil considering homeschooling our kids some day, and if I remember reading right, Julie Anne still homeschools one or two of her kids. This does not diminish the fact that we are seeing a growing number of adults that are speaking out about abuses in homeschooling families, as evidenced by the number of survivor blogs and stories that are coming out.
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JoeJoe – I think homeschooling is a great option. My kids were taught chemistry by a dad who is an actual PhD chemist with 80+ patents in his name. He loves what he does and was able to take the students to his work on field trips. My son was able to study ancient literature along with Bible and he went to Greece and Rome to visit the places he studied. You can’t get those kinds of experiences in public school.
JoeJoe – one thing I want to point out – – just because a homeschool student scored well academically does not mean they had a good and healthy home life. In fact, those smart kids may be more at risk. I think you will find this in many of the stories at the HA site. Reader Kagi identified as a very bright HK student here just yesterday. My daughter is very bright, too (sorry, mom brag moment).
The guy who started HA was very active in speech and debate and traveled around the country in competitions and then later taught other homeschool students. Ryan is very sharp. The kids who participated in that group were generally very smart and Ryan noticed that a large percentage of those HKs that he knew from his debate days were also having a lot of challenges that he was facing: mental health issues, addictions, etc.
Many HKs perform do very well on the outside academically, but are actually dying on the inside. Those are the precious souls I want us to be aware of so we can reach out to them.
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Wesley Roy,
Your comment @ June 11, 2013 @ 1:30 PM
You said that an unbeliever is an unbeliever. The Jews are NOT unbelievers.
The fact that they do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah is NOT proof that they are unbelievers.
1. They are not Gentiles.
2. God blinded them from the beginning to NOT see Jesus as their Messiah
3. They do worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
4. They do still have the Law of Moses.
The Pharisees put LAWS upon the Law of Moses.
The Apostle Paul states that there is MUCH ADVANTAGE to being a Jew (He wasn’t discussing Christian Jews either).
The Jews hold the oracles of God. (I think that means that you don’t).
Jesus said that the Jews KNOW who they worship (He was not discussing those who followed him (his disciples).
Jesus is the God of the Old Test, and they worship THAT God. They just don’t know Jesus.
That was in the context of the woman at the well, when she had said that her forefathers state that God is to be worshiped at such and such mountain, and she continued to say that the Jews say that God must be worshiped in Jerusalem, which shows that Jesus was NOT discussing those who follow him (his disciples).
As people have been trying to tell you, it was the religious leaders that Jesus was “not being Christlike” to, not the normal everyday Jew that didn’t believe that he was the Messiah.
Ed
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Julie Anne-
That is a good point. Academic achievement doesn’t necessarily mean that emotional health is there as well. I didn’t really put that very well in my last comment. Thanks!
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