* * *
Someone sent me a link to this book for children. The book was just recently published – just over a month ago – April 2013.
Here is the book description from Amazon:
Come along on a journey with Mitchell, as he recalls his nightmare for his mother. Mitchell was in a land of darkness and gloom, when due to no cooperation of his own, a Knight in shining armor saved him and all the other captives He intended to save. “Help! Arminians are Giving Me Nightmares Again!” is a children’s allegory designed to teach your kids the Doctrines of Grace through the use of creative story-telling.
So check this out. Here’s this book for children advertised on Amazon, right? A book written specifically for children, mind you. Go read the one negative review and all of the comments following. We’ve got a doctrinal war going on, people. A doctrinal war going on in the review section of a children’s storybook.
Here is that one negative review (as of June 1, 2013 – because you can be sure more will be coming):
I apologize. The decription is enough to give me the heebee-jeebees. Didn’t buy or read the book; don’t intend to. Since only a very few are chosen for salvation and many, many will go to eternal damnation (along with all and every infant), the chances of my grandchildren being those for whom God intended to save is awfully slim. Don’t want to give them Calvinistic nightmares. (Source)
As of right now, there are three pages of bantering back and forth Calvinism vs Arminianism. Here are a couple of more comments following the negative review (man, see what happens when you leave a negative review somewhere – I sure hope this guy doesn’t get sued).
Actually, the fear that God won’t choose someone because they are too bad dovetails with the classic Arminian doctrine of conditional election, whereas unconditional election isn’t based on how good or bad the sinner is. So thanks for shooting yourself in the foot. Conditional election would give a kid nightmares. (Source)
And here’s a response to the above comment:
Keystone, your comment shows that you do not know Arminian doctrine rightly.
That’s the point of “unconditional election”. It has nothing to do with merit or demerit. Calvinism teaches man is not worthy of salvation, and that is right. However, it also essentially teaches that others are damned without any reference too their deserving it (although, that is denied; nevertheless, it is the logical conclusion).
Conditonal election would not give nightmares for the Arminian can truthfully tell the child God loves him and will save him; all he need do is trust Christ.
If the Calvinist were honest, he would need to tell the child that he might be of the elect or you might be damned to hell forever and there is nothing you can do about it. While the child cries that God can’t be like that, in good Calvinist fashion, you can tell him, “Who are you, child, to answer back to God.”
If I were 7 years old and heard Calvinistic doctrine, I’d have stinking nightmares…along with wetting my pj’s! (Source)
You all have got the picture that these are review comments on a CHILDREN’S BOOK, right? Let me rephrase it, these are reviews for a book that was written for us to read to our cute little munchkins/offspring/heritage/blessings/arrows/passel/whatever-you-want-to-call-your-kids.
We all know that Christianity has basic tenets: Christ’s death and resurrection, virgin birth, Christ is Son of God, saved by grace through faith, etc. Silly me – I thought I just needed to know those kinds of basics to be a Christian. It wasn’t until a few years ago that I had even heard of the names “Calvinism” and “Arminism.” It confused me. It still confuses me.
We’ve talked about the idolatry of doctrine before. I believe the idolatry of doctrine can create an environment in which abuse is allowed to continue in churches. The obsessive focus on doctrine can become a distraction to the message of Christ and what it really means to live out the life Christ intended: loving God and loving others.
I have a problem with training children this stuff at such a young age. What is the purpose? To raise up little like-minded warriors to defend your brand of Christianity? Yea, I know, train up a child in the way he should go passage in Deuteronomy – – and that’s based on your interpretation of scripture because we all know your interpretation is the right interpretation and it doesn’t matter whether this stuff has been argued and debated for centuries, you’ve got it all figured out. Uh-huh, I’m tracking with you. I bought into this stuff in the Homeschool Movement when we were told to produce as many babies as possible so our little children could become spiritual warriors on the battlefield.
If the Bible has everything we need for life and godliness, why do my children need to learn Calvin’s stuff or the Arminian stuff? Why can’t it just be solely from the Bible? LDS carry their Bibles, too, along with the Book of Mormon when they go to their wards to worship. I have seen some combo versions that include the Pearl of Great Price and The Doctrines and Covenants. These are all part and parcel of LDS.
The way I’m seeing it, there are some Christians who behave the same way as Mormons. They have their Bible along with the Institutes of Calvin. I wonder if there is a combo Calvin Institutes/Bible in publication yet? By the way, I’m picking on the staunch Calvinists because that is my frame of reference. Do Arminians have a “bible” like Calvin’s Institutes? If they do, then add them to this paragraph. I’m picking on anyone who adds another book to their Bible and elevates it to the level of Bible. Ask a Mormon which book is more important to them. They have a hard time saying that the Bible is #1. When I talk to some people, I get the feeling they read more about their brand of doctrine than they read from their own Bibles.
I have a problem with people elevating men’s ideas as gospel above the Bible and especially when those men’s ideas become so divisive that somehow Christ and the true meaning of Christianity somehow gets lost.
Yea, I think I’ll stick with just the Bible for my kids. Men and their ideas complicate Christianity for me. For realz.
* * *
Related links:
Spiritual Sounding Board 
JA, why does it have to be chocolate frosting…is it a huge donut? LOL
LikeLike
LOVE that story! True confessions, as a Portland native, I have never been to VooDoo. Not a huge sweets person, and I have that feisty, ” if it’s too popular among visitors it’s no longer true Portland” mentality (although that same logic doesn’t keep me away from Powell’s).
So funny to imagine the homeschool, choir mom taking VooDoo orders for PUBLIC school kids ;), corrupting them, and being interviewed for standing up to a church leader.
LikeLike
We watched the interview. I told my wife you won your case. She says “Good for you!”
LikeLike
Can you say “EEE-VILL”? as you stick your finger in your cheek and twist it.
LikeLike
For whatever reason, as long as I’ve been following this blog, I have not taken the time to watch the interview until now. Dang, Julie Anne, you were so calm and firm. Majorly impressed! Must be the VooDoo doughnuts effect.
LikeLike
Julie Anne- You were predestined to drop your phone in the water. You missed your call but not your calling.
LikeLike
RP: I roared at this: So funny to imagine the homeschool, choir mom taking VooDoo orders for PUBLIC school kids , corrupting them, and being interviewed for standing up to a church leader. Hilarious!!!
I think that is only the 1st or 2nd time I’ve been. I’m not a doughnut lover, in fact I didn’t end up with one bec they shorted us one by accident and so I gave it to a kid. No loss to me whatsoever.
I just listened to the Sarah Groves video. Wow – so beautiful. ::tears:::
Ed, that one is pretty big. LOL The kids had a great time with me reading off their orders, too 🙂 I think that trip turned the tide as far as them liking me. I wonder if it was the VooDoo dougnuts 🙂
Eric, I would love to meet you! We’ll be in touch.
Gary – Love your 8:24 comment. Wait a minute – are you saying that my phone was Calvinist?
I’ve been in bed with a funky back today which has given me more computer time. This has been such fun. I have met the best people in the world through this experience. The genuineness that is shown here and the love – it blows me away. I think this is what is missing in so many churches. I wish everyone could experience it.
LikeLike
Help, Mom! Dr Suess is under my bed. And he’s writing aa exposé about Mister Rogers.
LikeLike
Good night friends It has been fun in a cogitatin’ way.
LikeLike
Goodnight, Gary 🙂
LikeLike
Sergius – That was funny.
LikeLike
Jeff, you’re right. Sergius’ comment was great. I think we need to get Michael Miller to speak to him about proper role of the father in the home.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/05/26/discernment-you-some-woman-or-phil-johnson/
LikeLike
I love Kim Kardashian. She’s hot! Howard Kazanjian is one of the best movie producers ever. Return of the Jedi and Raiders of the Lost Ark speak for themselves. George Deukmejian was the last decent governor California had. Why would he give a kid nightmares? Check out this list for more of the accomplished individuals from the Arminian community.
All kidding aside, this prompted me to wonder what came out of Gary Ezzo’s “Growing Kids God’s Way.” It was spreading like a wildfire back in the early to mid 90’s among my friends. I think he operated out of GCC for awhile before having a falling out with the church. I felt very unsettled watching my friends follow this regimen with their new born babies. Couldn’t believe that was for real. I sure hope the kids survived it
LikeLike
Hmm.
Pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis is in dictionaries. It is deliberately factitious, made up to be the longest word in English, and ostensibly refers to a lung disease caused by silica dust.
Doctors diagnosing you would use the proper medical term – silicosis.
There.
Now everyone reading this comment is the epitome of linguistic fussiness.;^)
JD Hall’s church is affiliated with the SBC, and affiliates with The National Association of Family Integrated Churches.
That is one hard core divisive, bellicose and combative fringe group.
http://tinyurl.com/kon3hfq
http://tinyurl.com/kwp858u
LikeLike
Julie Anne, I am in Dallas 2-3 times a month. I would also love to meet you there. There are so many wonderful places to eat and have fun.
LikeLike
BD – Well, there you go. That explains it. And take note – Michael Miller – whom I quoted above is also connected with the FIC movement. Be sure to look at his full nasty response to thatmom.com here in the body of the post. He was disgustingly rude and when he responded on Karen’s blog and also on my blog, when confronted about his rudeness, failed to even address it. These guys don’t see it. It’s not rude when you are telling the “truth.”
We confronted JD about the rudeness of the title of the children’s book, he didn’t acknowledge it, just blew it off as “funny.” No kid would find it funny to discuss nightmares. Who is the intended audience, adults or kids? The book is sold on Amazon as a children’s book. You can see in the Twitter conversation I posted above, others clearly call out his tone, and he doesn’t deal with it, yet he wants Rachel Held Evans to apologize to Piper and says we’re not nice. Nope, we’re not nice for noticing that he’s not nice.
Show your kids that Arminians will make them have nightmares. Show your kids that Arminians are the enemy so that kids from an early age will know Arminians are the enemy. I think he did mention that Arminians weren’t mentioned in the book. But they are in the title, so obviously the kids will take a mental note of that. If he’s teaching them words like propitiation, sanctification, etc, you can be sure they will be taught Arminianism. Train them from an early age to understand all of those big doctrinal words so they will be able to test people’s doctrine. That is exactly what he was doing with me in our private Twitter conversation. He accused me of being postmodern and presumed that I didn’t know what propitiation meant. When I gave him my answer he didn’t acknowledge it whatsoever, he still continued his condescension.
I know how this works because this is how it was in my former church. They see this behavior as “loving.” It is a loving thing to expose the “truth” as they see it. Feelings are not part of the equation at all. Truth is love, so as long as they are telling the “truth” (yes, the hard truth that even hurts), they believe they are right and justified in their behavior. They will even put themselves in an elite status: “we’re the only ones willing to risk telling you the truth because no one else is going to do it – others are post-modern and not concerned about the real truth of God. So we’ll risk our relationship with you so you can have life saving knowledge of the truth.”
LikeLike
I just got a hit on my site from the blog put out by my former pastor who sued me and is still whining about not getting his day in court. I don’t bother going there to read his stuff, but wondered if there was something new which prompted the hit on my blog: I found this gem which I will add to the list of names I am collecting:
LikeLike
That’s because for fundamentalists of any stripe, it’s not in the least bit about love or even truth, it’s about you acknowledging their certitude and worshiping it as they do. They worship their own opinion and obliterate any room for real faith and the Holy Spirit to work. They make an idol of the literal interpretation of the Bible, and in doing so, idolize themselves.
LikeLike
Let’s stay in touch, Mandy. It’s kind of hard to plan things with a volleyball tournament, but we’ll give it a try. It would be great fun to meet!
LikeLike
Dang it, JA, your old pastor is a guy I’d love to bust right in the mouth. Then I’d call him a few names you probably wouldn’t allow me to post here, and ask him if he figured out what bullying really is.
He’s a bigger whining sissy than Driscoll is. Probably suffering from the same little man syndrome as Driscoll.
LikeLike
Eric – Alex Grenier left a few choice words for him at one point, but then CON used those words to show how sinful Alex was. It just feeds his frenzy.
Yea, little man syndrome . . . . . . . fyi, I’m taller than him 🙂
. . . . . but then again, I’m taller than most guys, right Ed?
Oh, and my attorney, a woman, is so petite, but her words and expertise made her a giant in the courtroom. She’s amazing.
LikeLike
Hey, JD even tweeted about me and “Mary” suggesting we are not real people but Peter Lumpkins’ alter egos.
http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2013/05/a-tribute-to-mary-and-lydia-frequent-commenters-at-sbc-tomorrow.html?cid=6a00d83451a37369e201901bcffda5970b#comment-6a00d83451a37369e201901bcffda5970b
My guess is that it is a real sin to allow women to debate in his world. He is used to the doormat types..
He is some piece of work. He hangs out with James White if that is clue for anyone. To me they are like rabid dogs who put their doctrine over people and being a follower of Christ means insulting others who do not follow their brand of doctrine.
He is a sad and very lost man.
LikeLike
I realize I’m late to the party.
I am always amazed how polarizing the whole Calvin/Armenian arguments get. And yes, I blame a lot of it on the Calvin side of the fence. Look at their name for their theology. “Doctrines of Grace”…. What does that make all other doctrines?
The other side isn’t too much better…
What if there is a third path?
LikeLike
No wonder you intimidate him so much! 😀
LikeLike
Are you starting to get the drift he is very intimidated by women? My mom used to warn me that men like him are usually wimps in real life and that is why they are so insulting about women in public. They are “overcompensating” otherwise they would not feel the need to be that way in public as they would be secure in themselves.
LikeLike
I am finding it amusing that JD’s little boy on the book cover has a vase of flowers by his bed. :o)
LikeLike
Joel – Welcome to the party.
You said: “I am always amazed how polarizing the whole Calvin/Armenian arguments get. And yes, I blame a lot of it on the Calvin side of the fence. Look at their name for their theology. “Doctrines of Grace”…. What does that make all other doctrines?”
To them there is no other doctrine. That’s why he said he was right and I was wrong. And then he accused me of being post-modern because I don’t have his desire to talk like him with all of those big doctrinal words.
LikeLike
“Julie Anne Smith has emerged as the chief prophetess, voice, and visionary of the cyberbullying group. She is charting out a grassroots plan to unleash destruction everywhere.”
LOL. This really struck me as funny. I try to imagine a homeschooling mom, chauffeur to kids’ volleyball tournaments, choir mom to high school students trying to “unleash destruction everywhere.” I mean, either we are stupid, inept, doormats who are unfit to engage in their world, or we are trying to take over the world. Which is it? Give me a break. LOL
LikeLike
Lydia – The flowers are tulips. TULIP is the acronym of the 5 points of Calvinism: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, Perseverance of the Saints.
Juli Anne – Wow, I didn’t know you had the power to unleash destruction everywhere. Thank goodness that Mahaney can fight by you by influencing “vast millions” for good.
LikeLike
Oh ya!!! I have a cartoon caricature in my mind that you take your right fist and pounce on the head of CON a few times that he gets hammered into the ground. hehehe.
LikeLike
That’s a very good point, in that some men want to be in control to compensate for their own insecurities. As my daughter would say, “tru dat”
LikeLike
oooooohhh, daddy would never allow that, that is way too feminine, lol.
LikeLike
Julie Anne, there is nothing wrong with catechizing your children in what your church believes about different theological issues. It becomes abusive when you discourage critical thinking, act as though you are superior to other Christians, or include assent to your theological system in your definition of the Gospel. I haven’t read JD Hall’s book and I don’t see evidence that he is doing any of those things.
LikeLike
Tip toe thru the 2 lips. How is evangelism for the Calvinist? What good news do they bring to the world? God might hate you, I just don’t know? But I know that God loves me. I am not sure if God chose you, but I know that God chose me? But I must tell you, the good news is that God chose me!!!. Christ died for me, but I am not so sure that he died for you. You, too, might be chosen, if you hold the winning lottery ticket. But if you don’t, at least I told you the good news, that I was chosen, and you weren’t. Na na, na na na na.
LikeLike
@Ed, You hi the nail right on the head in your 8:17am comment. That stuff hardly qualifies as “good news” even for the chosen ones. Calvinism is a misanthropic theology that worships their misanthropy in the midst of their ridiculing the rest of humanity.
LikeLike
Karl,
JD’s words here and on Twitter speak for themselves. Now his book may be entirely different. The Table of Contents show TULIP. But the troublesome spot for me is the
title of the book. It’s creating an immediate conflict between doctrines.
But he’s okay with that because it’s the truth as he sees it. I’m now labeled as post-modern because I don’t agree with his method.
LikeLike
Good morning to you, Ed. Now I want to listen to Tiny Tim singing that song.
LikeLike
This is what your former pastor is saying about you?
“Julie Anne Smith has emerged as the chief prophetess, voice, and visionary of the cyberbullying group. She is charting out a grassroots plan to unleash destruction everywhere.”
No, Pastor, it’s called free speech on the Internet. Your worst nightmare–and the nightmare of all fraudulent pastors who use God-talk to promote their own power agenda to judge and condemn others. It’s called demagoguery, and it’s been around since the beginning of time.
And, Pastor, why are there so many women speaking out against abusive Christian leaders and churches? Because you cannot strip us of power. You cannot hurt our careers. You cannot affect the positions we hold. You cannot affect our speaking engagements. We’ll live our happy lives without giving you a thought. You are powerless to hurt us and all you can do is call us names.
Pastor, how’s that working for you?
LikeLike
JA,
I am definitely coming from a Calvinistic perspective. However, this topic is more like teaching a 2 year old theoretical quantum physics and Relativity theory and the dual particle/wave nature of light. A 2 year old is not going to understand but don’t think its necessarily abusive or wrong to share with your kids certain beliefs or convictions you may have. But I would probably never use the book with my kids. I think there is more age appropriate material available.
LikeLike
Ahhh yes, Tiny Tim…hehehe…what a voice, huh?
LikeLike
TULIP
Total depravity- I believe in the depravity of man. We are born with a sin nature and we can’t regenerate or save ourselves, but total depravity can be made to mean a lot of unbiblical things so I don’t subscribe to it.
Unconditional election-I believe in biblical election but what does unconditional mean? Seems to be a cop out.
Limited atonement- I do not believe this. Jesus died to reconcile all creation to Himself.
Irresistible grace- this sounds like an oxy moron but I’m thinking of the Hound of Heaven. Since I don’t know what it really means I can’t agree with it.
Perseverance of the Saints- If this means the saving and holding power of God I totally agree but what if it means license to sin or an excuse not to care? I believe God keeps us just as he saves us.
I see more verses that support election than free will but they are both there so I have to deal with it. It’s like some other concepts that seem to be at odds but I know they’re not. The love of God is so much more than our puny little minds can understand.
LikeLike
I’m gonna have to cover my ears cuz I can’t take Tiny’s voice. There is a local gardening radio program my wife likes to listen to on Sunday mornings. They use Tiptoe as their bumper music.
LikeLike
“Lydia – The flowers are tulips. TULIP is the acronym of the 5 points of Calvinism: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, Perseverance of the Saints.”
Why thank you. I was so taken back that a little boy on a JD Hall book cover had flowers by his bed, I failed to notice they were TULIPS!
LikeLike
Andrew,
I have a hard time with both children and adults being taught certain beliefs or convictions. Just “read” the Bible, and let the Holy Spirit do the teaching. Children came to Jesus, and the disciples wanted to stop it from happening. Jesus can’t be bothered by the little children. They should be seen and not heard. But Jesus responded that such is the Kingdom of God. Adults need to get rid of their beliefs and convictions a be like a child who has none. Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so. A Calvinist, with beliefs and convictions, will correct you and tell you, “Not so fast…Jesus doesn’t love you UNLESS…There are some little ones that Jesus hates, because he gets his kicks out of it (you know, something about good pleasure?)”. There is only ONE book. Be a Berean, in that they did NOT believe anything until they searched for themselves. Form your own opinion from God’s word (Jesus), and not man’s word (the preacher in the pulpit, the Dr. who has college education in theology, etc.). For God sakes, man…Calvin was a former Catholic…FRESH OUT OF Catholicism…and somehow he is going to be the expert in the Bible, when people of THAT ERA were KEPT IN DARKNESS by the Catholics, and now that the “reformation” took place, that Calvin, since he had a bible himself, and STILL not many others had one, that HE, CALVIN was going to be the END ALL for scrutiny? I think not. How people can buy off on any of Calvin’s thought process, which in reality is Augustine’s thought process, which in reality is Catholicism’s thought process, is beyond me. Technology advances, meaning that we know more today than those before us. Well, we know more today than what Calvin did back then, and we can certainly scrutinize Calvin, and all of the theologians that preach Calvin…including DR. James White.
Ed
LikeLike
“I haven’t read JD Hall’s book and I don’t see evidence that he is doing any of those things.”
Gee Karl, I am wondering what it would take for you? Positioning Arminians as monsters under the bed to children is not even a tiny clue for you?
LikeLike
Calvinists who follow the OT food laws must not be Southern Baptist Calvinists, cause true Southern Baptists eat catfish, and some churches have catfish dinners.
LikeLike
Those Arminians under the bed chose to be there whereas the little boy has to be in bed. The Arminians aren’t attacking the boy or his tulips; they are just there to remind him there’s another side to his Mom’s indoctrination. On the other hand, those pesky Arminians are so scary they scared off Freddy Kruger, Jason, the Bogeyman, monsters, everybody! I’m scared!!
LikeLike
Legalists are obscene and should not be heard.
LikeLike
Gary,
I don’t at all believe in the depravity of man, let alone the total depravity of man.
God killed the first animal in Genesis. That was a sacrifice. That sacrifice RESTORED the relationship with God that sin separated. Then Adam sinned again. Another sacrifice was needed. God showed Adam how that was done. You kill an animal. Adam taught that to his children, too.
Sin separates, sacrifice RE-INSTATES.
There is NO DEPRAVITY HERE. It was man initiated. Adam sacrificed an animal out of his own free will.
I do not believe in limited atonement. Jesus did die for everyone’s sins. But, those who reject the atonement gets the punishment that Jesus died and suffered for ALREADY.
In regards to the Elect…The TEAM called Christians is the elect. Those, who by free will, enlist to be in the team. It is voluntary. Go Navy!!
Ed
LikeLike
“How people can buy off on any of Calvin’s thought process, which in reality is Augustine’s thought process,””
A real interesting study is to find that Augustine introduced somewhat novel concepts into Christanity and because of his prolific writing that spread in the West, it has become ingrained. There were groups who questioned it and rebelled but they were outside the historical church/state structure who wrote the traditions and you gotta dig..
But Auggie knew no Greek and made some very bad translations. Some of his interpretations of parables are a joke. He basically merged his earlier Mani beliefs into Christianity. His take on total depravity is one of them basically teaching that all material world is evil. (He lived this out with his banishment of his long time concubine so that she never saw her son again. He refused to marry her after converting)
Calvin systematized it and took it to extremes that man is totally unable in all areas. Calvinism is basically moral relativism. I have lots of conversations with my Calvinist friends asking them about the Holy Spirit in their construct and also Satan. Where do they fit in to the Calvin construct since God is basically controlling every molecule? They have some fancy mental hoops with big words to explain how God gives us no free will and is in control but not of Satan. .
Calvin was a tyrant so not sure why he has become a hero to many today. People need to add some history to their doctrinal studies. Political history and church history cannot be separated.
LikeLike
This is exactly why I don’t believe in the Calvinist definition of God’s Sovereignty. Yes, I believe that God is sovereign, but not they way that Calvinist preach it, or indoctrinate it. God “intervenes”, and we even pray for his intervention. If we are just puppets in a play that he wrote, there would be no need for intervention. It would all just happen based on the play out the way that he wrote it before the foundation of the world. All he would have to do is to just watch the play. This all sounds like an episode of the Twilight Zone.
LikeLike
Adam did what God told him to do. It didn’t stop Adam’s bent toward himself. It didn’t take him back to the garden or to innocence. Yes God restored our fellowship with Himself but that’s based on His own sacrifice, not on us or our condition. Maybe we need to define depravity. To me it means sinful to the point of not being able to help ourselves. What did Paul mean by his phrase “the body of this death”? We have a sin nature. We can’t help but miss the mark of God’s perfection. When God made me spiritually alive he didn’t remove my sinful nature. it’s the elephant in the room. It’s a room full of elephants. Jesus went to the jail cell where all those people who had done the animal sacrifice were being held. Why?
LikeLike
“There is NO DEPRAVITY HERE. It was man initiated. Adam sacrificed an animal out of his own free will.”
Why was the sacrifice needed if there was no depravity? All sacrifices in the old testament just foreshadowed the ultimate sacrifice in the NT. And no one sacrificed the Son other than the Father and the Son who willingly gave up his life.
LikeLike
“A Calvinist, with beliefs and convictions, will correct you and tell you, “Not so fast…Jesus doesn’t love you UNLESS…There are some little ones that Jesus hates, because he gets his kicks out of it (you know, something about good pleasure?)”
Sorry, this is your characterization of a Calvinist. Not mine.
LikeLike
Andrew, because Adam sinned. Did I not explain that? Sin separates, sacrifice reinstates. There was no depravity. It was man initiated. Man knew how to get that relationship back.
OK, you want to use the word “foreshadow”? Yes, Jesus is the FINAL sacrifice ever needed.
However, in the OT, the sacrifices COVERED sin. Jesus takes away the covered sin, so that it is no more.
When people died in the OT, they still could not enter heaven, because those sins were only “covered”, not taken away.
Those people went to a paradise later called Abraham’s Bosom. When Jesus died, he took THOSE people captive, where it is said, he set the captives free.
Ed
LikeLike
“This all sounds like an episode of the Twilight Zone.”
That is what this pastor thinks, too. :o)
http://whchurch.org/sermons-media/sermon/escaping-the-twilight-zone-god
LikeLike
They were captive to their depravity.
LikeLike
Better be nice or Will Robinson will send you to the cornfield. That was a gruesome episode.
LikeLike
Hey all, I created a new page at the top of the screen: Spiritual Funnies. I think you’ll get a kick out of it. I had some help with that graphic artwork and thanks to Gary, Ryan, and others who contributed. My readers rock! LOL
https://spiritualsoundingboard.files.wordpress.com/2013/06/julieann-book-image.jpg?w=593&h=341
LikeLike
Calvinism engages in the same twisting of words as communists. They posit that God creates a certain number of people that are predestined to be tortured eternally, through no fault or wrongdoing of their own, they speak of God’s Grace, Love and Goodness out of the other side of their mouth. A being that creates living beings solely for the purpose or experiencing eternal pain and torture can hardly be called good, loving, or possessing grace; rather, these are the attributes of the demonic. Yet the Calvinists continue to engage in their Humpty-Dumptyism (“When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean”), proclaiming how loving, good and grace-filled their demonic consruct is. Thomas Jefferson considered the Five Points of Calvinism to be blasphemous. I have to agree with him on that point.
If a concept of God embodies something far less than the ultimate goodness that we humans can imagine, then why would anyone worship that concept? My opinion is that they are embracing and worshiping their own misanthropy, rather than hating that sin within themselves. Instead of embracing forgiveness for others in their hearts, they take comfort in imagining the punishment of people outside their group. It’s a concept that completely demeans and devalues Christ’s sacrifice for us all.
LikeLike
What kind of parents put flowers in a boy’s room? Don’t they know the gender confusion they’re causing?? They’re gonna need another book.
LikeLike
Thanks all for doing such a good job on this highly debatable topic.
I bet you all my chicken-fried bacon that the Calvinism/Arminianism debate won’t get resolved on my blog 🙂
LikeLike
“Calvinism engages in the same twisting of words as communists. They posit that God creates a certain number of people that are predestined to be tortured eternally, through no fault or wrongdoing of their own, they speak of God’s Grace, Love and Goodness out of the other side of their mouth”.
Not even close to accurately representing Calvinism. Completely wrong. T in TULIP stands for Total Depravity so it means completely our fault. Where you are getting “no fault” or “wrongdoing of our own” is completely opposite what Calvinism says.
LikeLike
A Dittmeier said: “What kind of parents put flowers in a boy’s room? ”
I suppose the kinds of parents who want their son to be dreaming about TULIPs. Maybe the TULIPs are going to eat up the Arminian Monsters hiding beneath the bed.
LikeLike
Andrew: I recently got in a Twitter debate with R.C. Sproul, Jr. He was saying we were all murderers. I questioned him on that and asked if he was a murderer and he responded yes and said that even I was. Someone later chimed in and said it had to do with total depravity. So even if I have never murdered someone, I am still considered to be a murderer because of my sin nature. Is that what you believe?
LikeLike
JA,
No, I don’t believe that. Total Depravity is totally different than Utter Depravity. What you are talking about is Utter Depravity. Radical Depravity is probably a better word to use than Total. Total just means ALL of man/woman’s faculties are affected by sin. It does not mean however that we are the worst we could possible be.
LikeLike
If Radical was used instead of Total it would be RULIP which doesn’t sound as good as TULIP. 🙂
LikeLike
Andrew, See, that’s very helpful. Like I said, we won’t figure out Calv/Arm here on this blog with so many people having varying degrees of interpretation. So, RC is over the top. Go figure. He’s friends with embedded babies in fetuses dude, Kevin Swanson.
Here was Sproul Jr.’s tweet that got me going the other day: Until we realize we are by nature murderers of our own children we will murder our own children. We must repent of what we are.
LikeLike
JA, Please distinguish between RC senior and RC jr.
I like RC Sproul Senior. I think the RC jr. has some problems.
http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/sproul/depravity.html
LikeLike
Ok, I had “Jr” in the 2:48 comment, but didn’t in the following. I’ll add it. Yes, you are right, Jr, has problems. He’s been defrocked. Altho I noticed a while back that his father’s website Ligonier is posting articles of his.
LikeLike
“What I’ve seen by briefly skimming this feed is the same thing I’ve seen in most (all?) of the negative comments – an apparent denial of the old adage, “don’t judge a book by its cover.”
So why that cover if folks are not supposed to judge by it?. Give me a break. Unless you open it up and it says “just kidding”, I think we all get the point.
LikeLike
” He’s friends with embedded babies in fetuses dude, Kevin Swanson.”
That cracked me up.
LikeLike
Absolutely love the spiritual funnies page, and I’m honored to be a contributor 😀
LikeLike
Gary,
You said the following:
“Adam did what God told him to do. It didn’t stop Adam’s bent toward himself. It didn’t take him back to the garden or to innocence. Yes God restored our fellowship with Himself but that’s based on His own sacrifice, not on us or our condition. Maybe we need to define depravity. To me it means sinful to the point of not being able to help ourselves. What did Paul mean by his phrase “the body of this death”? We have a sin nature. We can’t help but miss the mark of God’s perfection. When God made me spiritually alive he didn’t remove my sinful nature. it’s the elephant in the room. It’s a room full of elephants. Jesus went to the jail cell where all those people who had done the animal sacrifice were being held. Why?”
My response:
First, you say that Adam did what God told him to do. Huh?
You say that we have a sin nature. No kidding? But where do you get depravity out of that, let alone total depravity?
It was simple. Sin separates, sacrifice reinstates. God showed Adam how it was done. Adam taught his children the same. Those sacrifices reinstated a TEMPORARY relationship until the next sin, which required a sacrifice. Now, Jesus is the last sacrifice. No other sacrifice is ever needed. Ever.
I don’t have a clue where people define sin as “miss the mark”, because according to the bible (1 John 3:4) it is simply, transgression of the law.
I could go into more detail, and I probably will later, but it is just so simple that Calvinists miss it.
Adam to Moses = NO LAW ABRAHAM FELL INTO THIS CATEGORY
Moses to Jesus = Law
Jesus onward = NO LAW
I have yet to see the word depravity, depraved, at all in the bible, so there are people making up doctrine as they go along.
I am just now getting started reading the emails, so I need some time to re-hash your questions about what Paul said about death, but here is a HINT (Romans 7).
Ed
LikeLike
Anti-Calvinists: Do you believe that hell exists, and that it’s a place of eternal suffering? If so, is it fair that God decrees that anyone goes to hell?
LikeLike
Jeff –
I don’t doubt that there are some anti-Calvinists, but I tell you what – – after discussing that exchange up above about RC Sproul Jr about Total Depravity vs Utter Depravity, I’m confused at where any lines are drawn. I’m sure Sproul Jr would be a 5-pt Calvinist, but he goes above and beyond that, right? What about a 3-pt Calvinist? Wouldn’t some Calvinists say they are not Calvinist because they have missed the mark (by 2 points)? I guess this is why these labels bother me. What do we have to do, go through each point in great detail to determine where on the scale someone lines up? And for what purpose? What a flippin’ waste of time. And there you have my $.02 🙂
Doesn’t it make better sense to read the Bible, pray, and be the hands/feet of Jesus? Maybe I’m messed up. If so, someone tell me.
My friend, Michelle, whom I called pretty much every day during the lawsuit and was my primary support person is Calvinist. I love that dear sister and we have some great debates. One of the things I told her was this: how long has TULIP been around? I’ll bet in a few decades some other dude is going to come up with DAFFODIL and TULIP will be obsolete.
LikeLike
Only if they hear the gospel and chose to reject it, and then live out the implications of rejecting the Savior who died for them.
LikeLike
Andrew, what is depravity, let alone total depravity? What book, chapter and verse do we find that word? Please show me.
LikeLike
A Dittmeier said: “What kind of parents put flowers in a boy’s room? ”
Julie Anne said: “I suppose the kinds of parents who want their son to be dreaming about TULIPs. Maybe the TULIPs are going to eat up the Arminian Monsters hiding beneath the bed.”
Shannon H. can’t help but think: “Little Bedroom of Horrors” – LOL
LikeLike
And, it’s an accurate one, too…you are in denial. Denial is not a river in Egypt.
LikeLike
Oh, my last was to Andrew…about a Calvinist correcting one who sings, Jesus loves me.
LikeLike
Oh wow, I have to listen to that twilight zone message. On my DVR, I have about 70 episodes recorded that I still need to watch.
LikeLike
Gary,
You said that they were captive to their depravity. Hmmm…HUH?
LikeLike
A Dittmeier, flowers in a boy’s room. That was funny…lol. But how about this one:
Mommy, mommy, Johnny (John Calvin) is gonna murder me, cuz I don’t believe in what he believes.
I do believe that was an accurate historical fact.
LikeLike
Andrew,
You said:
“Not even close to accurately representing Calvinism. Completely wrong. T in TULIP stands for Total Depravity so it means completely our fault.”
This is where Calvinists speak out of both sides of their mouth. Where is depraved in the Bible?
LikeLike
Oh, so now we have different levels of depravity? I thought that the word total would represent 100 per cent? What is utter? 110 per cent? Or is total 90 per cent and utter is 100 per cent?
LikeLike
Hmmm… and HUH? are not in the bible but I’ll give you the benefit of my doubt. I said that wrong. I meant to say the people in Abraham’s Bosom were captive because of their depravity which to me equates to our sinful nature. Sin is in the heart. It doesn’t have time to do all the sacrifices it would take to cover them all. I’m not prepared to argue over terms that are vague so let’s just water the TULIPs and call it a day.
LikeLike
Jeff Brown,
It was a warning that God gave us, so it is our own free will that chooses to go there. God doesn’t send anyone to hell. We send ourselves. FREE WILL. That is where Jesus went to PAY THE PRICE for our sins. We warn people to not choose that place. Some heed to the warning, others don’t. Jesus died to save people from going there. Calvinists say that God created people specifically for going there. Huge difference between the two explanations.
LikeLike
Gary,
I am always prepared for debate. But I would rather water the roses, because Tulips are for Daisy, and Violette’s are blue.
Ed
LikeLike
Gary said: “I’m not prepared to argue over terms that are vague so let’s just water the TULIPs and call it a day.”
HAHAHA – – – Love your humor, Gary. I have a hunch that Ed won’t be watering any tulips, though.
LikeLike
What I’m wondering is, what if it’s more important to actually practice the faith than to have a correct intellectual understand of it? And yes, I convict myself.
LikeLike
Gary,
You just summarized my words from my several paragraphs today in a sentence. Amen to that!
LikeLike
Hey, JA,
The Tulip festival…is that a sponsored by the Calvinists? LOL.
LikeLike
Ed – There’s a really coolTulip festival in Oregon and the 10 yrs we lived there, I never went.
Now, truth be told, for probably 8 of those yrs, I had no clue that TULIP had any connection with Calvinism and the 8th year was around the first I had even heard of Calvin. I mean, I was so used to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, where did Calvin fit in without changing the number of books in the bible? Calvin was a new concept to me.
I guess I’ve always been a simpleton (or post-modern as JD would say – lol).
LikeLike
Julie Anne,
Pretty much the same here for me, too. I never heard of Calvin before a couple of years ago. I never heard of such weird doctrines. I, too, read and study the Bible, and never heard of such strange things as what is presented in Calvinism. Calvin was from what, 400 years ago or so? A man, not even a witness to the death or resurrection of Jesus, not a prophet from the era of Isaiah, and Jeremiah, and Ezekiel, or Jonah? What makes his interpretation more superior to my interpretation? He’s a former Catholic, who did not get rid of much of his Catholicism. I wonder if he ate fish on Friday, while bad mouthing the Jews. He sure duplicated the crusades, murdering people who didn’t buy into his preaching.
LikeLike
After reading through these nearly 200 comments, I must say that it seems (according to my perspective) that the people criticizing the TULIP the most don’t seem to know a lot about it. I have never read a single piece of literature by John Calvin, but from my study of the Bible, I have found that it is a pretty good (although somewhat flawed in its word choices) outline of grace.
LikeLike
So… If a child is frightened, like the one on the book cover…. How best to comfort?
Something generally like, “Jesus loves the little children” and “Jesus loves me, this I know”?
Or…. “Jesus loves all the little children he intends to love” and “Jesus might love me, this I hope”?
Some third option?
LikeLike
Oh, I have studied TULIP. Don’t get me wrong. But I studied it after I had knowledge of the bible in regards to sin and salvation, and I find TULIP to be “utter” nonsense, so I do not find it to be pretty anything. We give God faith, and in turn, God gives us grace. Calvin indicates that in order for us to give God faith, he must first give us grace. It doesn’t work like that. This is where the total depravity is a false doctrine in and of itself. We are not depraved, i.e. the point that we cannot respond to the gospel UNLESS God first gives us the grace to do so.
I put quotation marks around “utter” because I was told in a previous post that there is a difference between total depravity and utter depravity. I am not sure if total is 100% or 90% since I have been told of an “utter” depravity. Is that 100% or 110%? I don’t know.
LikeLike
Dave A A,
Very good!! I liked the “Jesus might love me this I hope” song. Very comforting to a child, huh? NOT…lol.
LikeLike
The way you describe grace makes it sound as though you are earning it, or that God owes you grace since you are so kind as to give Him faith. I would say that faith itself is a gift from God that we would not have were the Holy Spirit not dwelling within us.
As for not believing that we are depraved, the first few chapters of Romans pretty clearly says otherwise.
I’m not too familiar with the differences between “utter” and “total”, but by reading the previously given explanation, I would describe it using the image of a gallon of milk. If you add a little poison to a jug of milk, it is totally poisoned, but it is not yet utter poison, as it would be if it were only poison and not milk. Either way, it deserves to be poured down the drain and not consumed.
LikeLike
Calvinism? Arminianism? I hereby declare the whole centuries long debate between their respective adherents to be a monumental, fruitless, divisive distraction. Further, I submit that everything there is to know about salvation is summed up in a single word, a single name, actually. Neither the name of John Calvin, nor the name of Jacobus Arminius, nor any other name, excepting only the name of Jesus. “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12, KJV.
LikeLike