* * *
I’ve been wrong. I’ve had the wrong focus. For me, the Sovereign Grace Ministries fiasco has always been about the sex abuse victims, the spiritual abuse, the women whose voices were silenced, the cover-up of pedophiles, the forced reconciliations, failure to notify authorities (civil, that is), etc. You see, my focus is not right where it should be according to them. It should be on doctrine. Everybody must get on board with the right doctrine. That is the common goal among these folks.
I skimmed SGMSurvivor blog and found this paragraph tucked away in a comment and said BINGO:
The last paragraph of this comment:
I said this before and I’ll say it again. All they see is a guy who “single handedly” ( sorry Brent, Boisvert, etc, I know that isn’t true) took a whole lot of Arminian charismatics and turned them into respectful Calvinists, and ruled 100+ churches into doing whatever he said. Drop apostles, they drop apostles. Change position on tongues, they change positions. Write up a presbyterian type Book of Church order, they write it up. CJ is like a hero to these people. Thye would give their right arm and leg to have his magic power over masses of sheep.
In their eyes, C.J. Mahaney masterminded the impossible. C.J. had the power and influence to shift the doctrinal beliefs of an entire church organization. That is amazing. It is true that doctrine is a foundational issue. I agree that it is important. But I think for these guys, it is THE issue. Nothing comes between them and their doctrine – obviously not even sex abuse. The abuse in their minds must be just a minor oversight. It will get taken care of. The bigger picture is that everybody is on board with the right doctrine because that is what God would want — -to heck with a little toddler getting sexually abused. As long as they have the right doctrine, it will all work out. I mean, life is only temporary on earth, if they have the right doctrine, they have the rest of eternity with God. The abuse is minor in the full scheme of things.
We’ll see what the courts think about that.
* * *
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Good comments, Jeff. I’m looking forward to Ed’s response.
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Well, I just got home, so give me a few minutes (translated to a couple of hours maybe). Must relax for a bit. But I will lay it all out.
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Alright, lets cover the word Testament first. In the KJV, the word Testament is in the following GREEK: Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Cor 11:25, 2 Cor 3:6, 3:14, Hebrews 7:22, 9:15, 16, 17, 18, 20 and Revelation 11:19. All of those references are the same Greek word. Strong’s Concordance Greek Ref #1242 diatheke, which means “a contract”. The English words used are “covenant” and “testament”.
There is only ONE verse in the KJV that references the phrase “OLD Testament”:
2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the OLD TESTAMENT; which vail is done away in Christ.
Again, it is the same Greek word, meaning “contract”. Keep that word, “CONTRACT” in mind. That is what a covenant is, is a contract. Genesis 1:1 is not a contract, or covenant.
Now, let’s cover the word “Covenant”. In the KJV the word Covenant is in the following GREEK: Luke 1:72, Acts 3:25, 7:8, Hebrews 8:6,7,8,9,10,13, 9:1,4, 10:16, 29, 12:24, and 13:20
Same Greek word either way, whether it is “covenant” or “testament”.
Now, notice that I only covered the Greek side of the house. Now for the Hebrew. The word “testament” is not used in the KJV in the Hebrew Scriptures at all.
There is also another way of saying Old Testament and New Testament, and that is in the following:
1. First Covenant/Testament (Hebrews 8:7, 8:13, 9:1, 9:15, 9:18)
2. Second Covenant/Testament (Hebrews 8:7)
Now, this First Covenant is first mentioned in Exodus 19:5
Exodus 19:5
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
It was at Mt Sinai.
Galatians 4:24
“…for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage…”
God Spoke to Moses the beginning of the 1st Covenant from Exodus 20 thru 23, which begins the Ten Commandments, written in a book (BOOK before it was in stone). Now see the following:
Exodus 24:5-8
5 And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the Lord.
6 And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.
7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.
8 And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words.
ALL THESE WORDS…WHAT WORDS? Beginning with Exodus 20, the Ten Commandments and much more do’s and don’t’s that didn’t just stop there, but continued thru Deuteronomy. It is THAT BOOK that is in the ARK OF THE “COVENANT”.
Now, compare Exodus 24:5-8 with Hebrews 9:17-23 (I am using the KJV…compare with your preferred Bible).
Hebrews 9:17-23
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
NOTE:
You had mentioned “Who died?”, and I assume that you were referencing this verse, but the following verses gives the answer to your question in more detail…
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
I hope this sheds a little bit of light for you. I could explain even in further detail, but that would take more time.
Finally, you asked what do I call Genesis – Malachi. That is an interesting question, because I have heard the Jehovah’s Witnesses call it what you call it, which is “The Hebrew Scriptures”, while others call it the Old Testament.
Me, I just call it the Bible, and specify the book, chapter, and verse…but I will also “go with the flow” with others who really really really want to call it the Old Testament…but I know better.
Ed
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@Gary, Okay I stand corrected. We are not on the same page. I am afraid we will have to exercise the wonderful option of agreeing to disagree. 🙂
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Jeff, thanks for the healthy dialogue. I appreciate your kind, respectful tone in areas you’ve disagreed with folks on here. It’s helpful to hear your exposure to SG and a little about where you’re coming from. I concede that my perception of Calvinism is completely through the lens of SG which is not comprehensive by any means. Some day when I am further away from it and more healed from the abusive teachings, I may find myself reading a little on the broader topic.
For now, the Holy Spirit, and my Bible are all I can take in as relates to “religion” and “theology.” I’m content to lay my questions about His sovereignty and my free will at His feet.
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Ed: It’s evident that you put your heart and a lot of time/effort into your responses. Thank you. I’ve learned a lot from you.
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Wesley,
You are commenting under the name of Wesley Roy. Are you also commenting under the name of wesleyroy2, or is wesleyroy2 somebody else, such as maybe your son?
If you are one and the same as wesleyroy2, your comment of 8:18 addressed @Gary. Were you intending to address me, or were you possibly intending to address Ed, as in chapmaned24? If you were intending to address me, I’m wondering where we are in disagreement.
Wesley and Ed,
As to the discussion the two of you have been having, I’m not who I agree, or disagree, with the most. I think I’m in agreement with Ed in that I hold to the notion that the New Covenant has replaced the Old Covenant, or at least made it obsolete (Young’s Literal Trans.) and ready to vanish away. Heb. 8:13. I may be finding some agreement with Wesley in that the author of Heb. 8:13 references Jeremiah’s description of the New Covenant as including the writing of the Law on minds and hearts, which grace I read as flowing from the fact that we shall all know our Lord. See Jer. 8:10-11.
I may wander back into Ed’s court by pointing out that the Acts 15 council of Jerusalem determined to lay no obligation on the Gentiles other than to avoid certain actions which were a matter of great offense to the Jewish believers. On this basis, I believe that we err when we respond to Paul, theologians, modern church leaders, or any other man (or woman) as though any of them were the new Moses handing down legal obligations from on high.
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Gary W.
All of the Wesley name variations are the same person. Word Press does not always behave (as I well know). I’ll go ahead and change them to avoid confusion. Thanks for mentioning this. I wasn’t paying attention.
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Sorry guys, I took a nap, and now it’s almost 2 am.
Anyway, Wes, my name is Ed, not Gary.
I must say that I did extensive study of our topic years ago when trying to find out why the 7th Day Adventists insist on going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday. You think that the 10 Commandments are still binding, as well as many other laws, with the exception of circumcision and food restrictions and animal sacrifices. So, the 7th Day Adventists have a bone to pick with you about the 4th Commandment (Sabbath, 7th Day, Friday Night to Saturday Night). If you think that the 10 Commandments are still binding, I too wonder why you go to church on Sunday instead of Saturday. If you go to church on Sunday, you are breaking the 4th Commandment. It does not say to Remember the Lords Day, it states to Remember the Sabbath Day.
By the way, I am not a 7th Day Adventist, but to them, you are indeed breaking the 4th commandment, and IF YOU BELIEVE that the Ten commandments are still in effect, then I agree with the 7th Day Adventists that you are indeed breaking the 4th commandment. Sabbath is Saturday, not Sunday…by the Law (The Ten Commandments).
Anyway, here is a link that ALSO states the same that I do in more detail:
http://www.letusreason.org/7thad7.htm
That link isn’t just for Wesley Roy, but for all. I am only in disagreement with one half of one percent of the write up, but with what I do agree with, I studied on my own without outside influence long before I ever saw that link (which was about 8 hours ago).
Ed
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Bringing this back to the original topic of DOCTRINE, we see a different doctrine between Wes, a pastor, and myself, Ed, a lay person. And how did we resolve this? Agreeing to disagree (I don’t have a problem with that, by the way).
I am not sure that the Apostle Paul would have agreed to disagree. That was never his style. If you don’t believe me, just ask the Apostle Peter.
But we see in just our disagreement as to why there are so many different “denominations” out in Christendom. Doctrine is not the same in all church’s.
Ed
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Recovering Pharisee
Your telling me that I have “a kind, respectful tone” in disagreement is very encouraging because there was a time when my tone was anything but that. So thanks.
chapmaned24
That’s a lot to chew on. Thanks.
I’ll take a look at that link. Not that anyone asked, but I think the commandment concerning the Sabbath was the only one of the 10 not repeated in the NT. I think it is now the perpetual Sabbath Rest spoken of in Hebrews. However, if people want to keep the Sabbath (which I believe is Sat.), that’s fine, of course. I just don’t think we are commanded to anymore.
Also, I don’t think that there is any place in Scripture where we are told to gather for worship on the Sabbath day. We are merely told not to neglect our coming together, so it could be on any day.
I know from experience that these views are sometimes met with an “unkind, non-respectful tone,” so I just ask that responses, if any, be civil.
Julie Anne, I hope you don’t mind this very long thread possibly being longer.
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Sorry about the name thing. I did mean Chap and not Gary W. It seems my PC at work and my Mac at home are not in agreement as to what my name should be so at work I am Wesley Roy and at home I am Wesley Roy sometimes and WesleyRoy2 sometimes. I have not figured out how to resolve that problem yet. Thanks JA for keeping it straight for me.
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I agree with JB on the Sabbath take. Christ clearly revealed that the Sabbath was not to be observed as the Jews had previously done it. It is also evident in Scripture that worship gatherings were a daily occurrence with their being special gatherings and remembrances on some occasions declared Sabbaths. All Sabbaths were not on the seventh day of the week so I think the Adventists miss that one.
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Jeff, I don’t mind one bit. I have found it very interesting and also appreciate the respectful tone. You guys rock 🙂
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Wes,
You said:
“Christ clearly revealed that the Sabbath was not to be observed as the Jews had previously done it”
Really?
Oh, so you are telling me that the Jews disobeyed the 7th Day Sabbath as outlined in the Ten Commandments? What was the penalty for NOT observing the 7th Day Sabbath, Wes?
Wes, according to the Ten Commandments, we are not discussing Special Sabbaths, as it (The Ten Commandments) is specified “the seventh day”. THE LETTER OF THE LAW of the Ten Commandments states that you must obey the 7th day sabbath, Wes. It isn’t discussing any other sabbath in the Ten Commandments. So now you tell me that we must obey 9 out of the Ten Commandments, and that the Fourth Commandment is obsolete, and that Jesus created a different Sabbath, which replaced one of the Ten Commandments?
Ed
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Chap,
First of all Good Morning.
Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? (Matthew 12:5)
Now I am saying that the sabbath was not an exclusive day of worship but an exclusive day of rest. Every day was a day or worship and the priest profaned the sabbath by not resting on the sabbath but were blameless because everyday is a day of worship. So the Adventists making one day the “right” day to worship are in error.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)
I am saying that the sabbath along with the rest of the “10” commandments were a shadow of things to come. They are an incomplete revelation that has been completed in and through Christ. The sabbath is an imperfect rest but perfect rest is revealed in Christ just as the commands of the “10” commandments that deal with our treatment of people are an incomplete revelation that Jesus completed when He taught us that we are not to do harm to other people (obey #5-10) out of love and we are to actively seek to bless and do good to others out of love.
So in summary, nothing was replaced but instead the revelation was completed.
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Wesley,
When you say SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME, and that thing to come has already came, THEN WHAT? What is that shadow, and why are you still in it?
In regards to the Sabbath, LOOK AT THIS. (From Hebrews 4 AND ROMANS 4)
WORKS is considered to be attempting to be “obedient” to the LAW OF MOSES…all of it.
We are no longer working. That means that we are no longer being “obedient” to the Law of Moses. But YOU ARE. You are still IN THE SHADOW.
We are at rest from attempting to be “obedient” to the Law of Moses. It does not exist to a Christian. Every single day is our Sabbath. Every single day is the 7th Day. There is not a Sunday Sabbath, or a Saturday Sabbath or any day of the week for that matter. Every single day is the Rest of God. That is the better things to come. But you are still being obedient to The Law of Moses (and if you break one you break them all). That is works. Why are you still working? I know you will say that you aren’t, but you are, if you are being “obedient” to the law of Moses, any of it.
According to you, we must still obey (DO/WORK) the Ten, or is it Nine Commandments, and a bunch of others.
The Law was our school master to bring us to Christ. We are no longer in need of a school master.
There are tons of ways IN THE BIBLE that states that all of the Law of Moses is ABOLISHED (Forgive my caps, please).
I thru the law and dead to the law.
What law is Paul dead to? The Law of Moses.
But you don’t believe that. You believe in “We can’t get salvation by obeying the law, but we must obey the law.
That is double speak, my friend.
Ed
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Okay Chap, I hear you loud and clear.
We agree on the sabbath. Everyday is a day of rest and worship in Christ.
Now we have a disagreement on the “law” because you see it as a set of rules and I see it as the revelation of God’s moral character. If it reflects God’s moral character then that is what we are being conformed to. If it is an arbitrary set of regulations then it should be ignored.
So is it acceptable for disciples of Christ to commit adultery? Is it acceptable for disciples of Christ to steal? Is it acceptable for disciples of Christ to ignore the plight of the hungry?
If not, then why? And how would one know this?
Keep in mind that most of the world still engages in what we would call adultery through polygamy. Much of the world sees nothing wrong with taking the goods of others to meet the needs of the whole. With the reality that a very large percentage of people on earth will go to bed hungry today and most of the children in the world die from nutrition related issues, it is clear that ignoring the hungry is not seen as a problem by humanity.
My answer is simple. I find adultery, theft, and a lack of compassion unacceptable because I have been made a new creature by Christ. I am not constrained by some regulations but my character has been changed and conformed to God’s character (in these areas for now) as revealed in the moral law and the life of Christ. These laws do not regulate me but they simply reveal the condition of my heart–conformed to Christ or not conformed to Christ. I am not working to keep any law but God is continuing the work He began in me of conforming me to the image of Christ.
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Good Morning Wes (It’s 5 am here on the West Coast),
You say “”Is it acceptable for disciples of Christ to commit adultery?”
Funny, that is how the 7th Day Adventists present it, too.
If you are living by the law of love, you are not committing adultery. You are not even thinking about adultery. Abraham didn’t have a law telling him to not commit adultery. And…he didn’t have that law, either. Nor, did he have any law telling him not to steal, not to covet, etc.
From FAITH TO FAITH, the bible states.
1. FAITH (Abraham) – NO LAW
2. LAW (MOSES) – NO FAITH
3. FAITH (JESUS) – NO LAW
The law is a barrier to faith, and that is why Abraham didn’t have it.
Again, I repeat, Paul stated, “I thru the law, and dead to the law.
What law? THE LAW. What is “THE” law?
1 John 3:4
…sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 3:20
the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 5:13
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
When is sin not imputed? What does “impute” mean, Wes?
1 John 3:4
…sin is the transgression of the law.
Romans 4:15
FOR WHERE NO LAW IS, there is NO TRANSGRESSION.
You want to OBEY The Law when there IS NO LAW.
The ONLY law is the law of love.
You love your wife. You would NOT commit adultery, even if there was NO LAW. So, do you really need a law to tell you that? Abraham didn’t. Why do you?
If you want to be under the law, then you must KEEP THE WHOLE LAW, not just bits and pieces of it.
Romans 4:8
BLESSED IS THE MAN TO WHOM THE LORD WILL NOT IMPUTE SIN.
When does the Lord NOT impute sin?
Romans 4:15, 5:13
FOR WHERE NO LAW IS, THERE IS NO TRANSGRESSION. Sin is NOT imputed where there is no law.
Did you ever see 1 John 3:9? We all know that John was the “Love” Apostle.
Please look at the word, “CANNOT”. It does not say “should not”
I am sorry that you need a law to tell you not to cheat on your wife.
Ed
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Sorry about that 5 a.m. thing. I know it is early so you may have misread my post. 🙂
Here is what I said earlier –“I find adultery, theft, and a lack of compassion unacceptable because I have been made a new creature by Christ. I am not constrained by some regulations but my character has been changed and conformed to God’s character (in these areas for now) as revealed in the moral law and the life of Christ. These laws do not regulate me but they simply reveal the condition of my heart–conformed to Christ or not conformed to Christ. I am not working to keep any law but God is continuing the work He began in me of conforming me to the image of Christ.”
I don’t need a law to tell me not to cheat on my wife because I have been conformed to God’s moral character (in this area for now) as revealed in the law and life of Christ.
I think Sarah would say Abraham failed that “law of love” test as it pertains to adultery with Hagar.
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In regards to Sarah, it was not considered adultery. Hagar was a surrogate. Sarah did that so that SHE could have a child THRU Hagar. It was not an adultery issue.
Genesis 16:2
And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the Lord hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
But, even if you explain it as you do in this last post of yours, you still do not believe that the law was DONE AWAY, which means that YOU are still “obeying” the law. Otherwise, you would not have asked me the following:
So is it acceptable for disciples of Christ to commit adultery? Is it acceptable for disciples of Christ to steal?
Romans 2:14-16
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
THOSE WITHOUT THE LAW DO BY NATURE THE THINGS THAT ARE IN THE LAW.
We are no longer in need of a School Master. God is the one changing us, you don’t change a thing. We do not conform ourselves, God does. So why do you keep looking at the law at all? For measure? Abraham didn’t have any of the law, not even to look at, not even to compare God’s Moral Character. Why do you need it?
I gotta go to work…be back in about 12 hours.
Ed
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chapmaned24
Since I sort of instigated this latest discussion by giving my views on the Sabbath, I believe it’s okay for me to barge in. I knew I was opening a can of worms, so I asked that responses be “civil.” Sentences like “I am sorry that you need a law to tell you not to cheat on your wife” are not in that category.
Not only is Wesley Roy not responding in kind, he seems to be essentially agreeing with you about the law. Are you really reading what he writes?
I don’t know either of you, so I’m not playing favorites. I’m only going by the comments.
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Jeff
Well, my opinion. like any opinion, is worth about what you pay for it… 😉
And I thought this line was great…
“I am sorry that you need a law to tell you not to cheat on your wife.”
I plan on useing it – A Lot… 😉
That is a great line when dealing with folks who are –
“Trying to keep the commandments.”
Which, unfortunatly, is a lot of christian-dumb today.
Love worketh no ill to his neighbour:
therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Rom 13:10
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Thanks Jeff for actually reading my posts.
Tell me AAL, How does one recognize love? How does one explain to someone else that they are not being loving? Please be specific and not subjective. I am sure the guys at SGM would claim to be very loving so how do we know and explain to them objectively that their actions are not loving.
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Wesley, I know the answer! Lol.
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Wesley,
I will answer that one with a question. How did Abraham (Which you simply won’t acknowledge that he never needed a law to tell him about any righteousness) do it? He didn’t have the law, so how does Abraham explain to someone else that they are not being loving? How did Abraham know love? Love is natural. God gave us all a conscience (ROMANS 2:14-16), which is the law written in our hearts. When we DO BY NATURE the things contained in the law…
Jeff,
Wesley and I have already established a bantering respectable relationship already. He’s a great guy. I have no ill will with Wesley. It’s all in fun, as far as I am concerned. But it is serious topics, tho. I am always serious in my discussions. If I didn’t believe what I post, I would not even consider posting them as statements. By the way, I agree with you in that the Sabbath is perpetual, as I explained to Wesley earlier above.
A. Amos Love,
As always, I can’t disagree with anything you say.
Ed
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Ed Chapman
Just wanted you to know I have read a lot of this thread a few times. And have enjoyed the conversation and your take on a few things.
I like them so much I copied and pasted ALL your comments from chapmaned24 – MAY 2, 2013 @ 7:03 PM – to – MAY 8, 2013 @ 5:53 AM – Because I would like to read them over a few times and be able to reference them in the future. Thanks for adding to my reference library. 😉
I really enjoyed this…
“In a nutshell, Christianity is so easy…it’s these so called experts at the pulpit, who are supposedly growing???, right???, who make it difficult. How long did it take the Apostle Paul to grow? Seems like he grew in about a 14 year period BEFORE he began spreading the gospel of Jesus, which is the doctrine of Paul.”
And – I Never thought about the OT covenant, contract, being – Exodus 20 – Deut. 🙂
Good stuff. Thanks a lot for that info.
This was precious…
“I just call it the Bible, and specify the book, chapter, and verse…but I will also “go with the flow” with others who really really really want to call it the Old Testament…but I know better.” 🙂 😉 😉
Also enjoy your stand on the Law… A lot…
“We are no longer in need of a School Master. God is the one changing us, you don’t change a thing. We do not conform ourselves, God does. So why do you keep looking at the law at all? For measure? Abraham didn’t have any of the law, not even to look at, not even to compare God’s Moral Character. Why do you need it?”
“When you think about the law, you end up breaking the law.” … Yup
“It is Law vs. Grace, not grace plus law.”
Hmmm? Isn’t that way to simple??? Don’t we have to do something??? 🙂
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Amos, Ed has taught me a lot about keeping it simple. There are biblical references to keeping things simple, ie, having faith like a child, etc.
I find when my brain gets polluted with man’s ideas about God, I don’t get very far spiritually. I do much better when the focus is on God/Jesus – who He says He is and who He says I am.
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chapmaned24
Well, I’m learning that if the issue is one of “tone” between two people, and I am not one of the two, I should stay out of it. Thanks for the info, and the way you presented it.
However, when it comes to content, I’ll put in my 2 cents. You’re right, it seems to me that we agree on the Sabbath. But I don’t see why you say that Wesley is advocating the view that we are still under the law as God originally declared it to Israel. Twice he has written:
”I find adultery, theft, and a lack of compassion unacceptable because I have been made a new creature by Christ. I am not constrained by some regulations but my character has been changed and conformed to God’s character (in these areas for now) as revealed in the moral law and the life of Christ. These laws do not regulate me but they simply reveal the condition of my heart–conformed to Christ or not conformed to Christ. I am not working to keep any law but God is continuing the work He began in me of conforming me to the image of Christ.”
Isn’t the law still a guide to believers, in terms of their sanctification? To say that we are no longer under it to obey it (which is a monumental change), is not to say that it has no function whatever. And I speak as one who has vigorously disputed believers who call themselves “Torah-observant,” or whatever.
You write: “So why do you keep looking at the law at all?” This seems to me to be pretty extreme. After all, it’s still God’s Law, and it reveals His standards. What’s important is that it now has a very different function, which in no way implies obligation to obey it.
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Being one of those “so called experts” (I feel the innate love) I am having a little problem here. These answers seem quite subjective. So I am having trouble understanding how I am to explain to someone that they are not being loving? I am having trouble understanding what makes someone’s innate knowledge of love right and someone else’s innate knowledge of love wrong? I have a question. Since SGM’s guys say they are demonstrating love and many say they are not, how do we determine who is incorrect objectively? We would all agree that declaring someone is doing something wrong and when they ask, “Why do you say that” one responds “Because I feel you are” is a poor explanation.
So anyone have an objective answer?
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Referring to my last comment about men confusing things and interfering with God, check out this John Calvin quote that just showed up on my Facebook wall:
Wherefore all theology, when separated from Christ, is not only vain and confused, but is also mad, deceitful, and spurious; for, though the philosophers sometimes utter excellent sayings, yet they have nothing but what is short-lived, and even mixed up with wicked and erroneous sentiments.
John Calvin
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Thank you Jeff for reading my comments. 🙂 You must not realize I am an “evil” pastor. LOL….
I think that much of the disconnect is simply a knee-jerk reaction to what I should be saying instead of really reading what I am saying.
I have to disagree with the statement that we no longer need a school master. I am being conformed to Christ and I have not yet completely attained thus my disclaimer “in these areas for now”. So there are times I need to be reminded to love my enemy when I don’t want to. There are times when I need to be reminded to forgive for Christ’s sake not because they deserve to be forgiven. I could go on and on giving illustrations of this. God is gracious to apply His law not to condemn but to reveal His character and desire for me to love my enemy and forgive the one who has wronged me and to remind me of who I am in Christ. Maybe some people are simply experts and don’t need the Holy Spirit commissioned school master to teach them anything else. 😉
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Wes, I can see that the post I wanted to put up today is taking longer than I wanted and your 9:07 question is excellent and such an important one. Hang on while I make it into a post.
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Wes,
Just wanted to say that I believe I agree with how I think you are viewing the law. The way I always viewed the law was that its primary purpose was to show us our need for a Savior.
Galatians 3:16-25 says, “The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on the promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But Scripture has locked up everything under the control of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
23 Before the coming of this faith,[j] we were held in custody under the law, locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed. 24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.”
The law was given because of transgressions. In a sense, it is like a moral guide that shows us just how far from the mark we really are. Jesus’ death on the cross released us from being under this law. The law is a burden to bear, but Jesus said, “My yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:30) We are no longer under the law if we are in Christ, but the law still serves the purpose of being a moral guide of sorts, an arrow pointing to our collective need of a savior. Furthermore, it paints a part of the picture of God’s character. Also, 2 Timothy says, “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness.” This would include the law of the old testament. We must certainly not fall into the trap that we must keep all of the law, but that doesn’t mean that it isn’t useful to us as you have said.
Sorry, this was a longer comment because of the scripture quoting, but I wanted to put in my two cents.
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Julie Anne
Yup – Simplicity – But if it’s too simple – Will we need the professional clergy?
2 Cor 11:3
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,
so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
Seems, when trying to “keep the rules,” “Obey the Law,” I always fail – And – Failing at “Keeping the rules” – Makes me feel bad about myself – Makes me feel unworthy of God’s Love – Makes me feel guilty… 😦
Now – In the Bible we have two Kingdoms…
The Kingdom of God – and – the Kingdom of Satan…
Well, which kingdom wants us, God’s kids, to feel guilty?
Do I have to listen to that kingdom? – NOT anymore – thank you Jesus…
Yup – I’m forgiven and God remembers my sin NO more.
And I don’t have to remember my sins either – I’ve been cleansed… They are gone…
And, “keep the rules,” is a big distraction in “hearing His Voice” and following Jesus.
That’s ALL A believer has to do? – Hear His Voice? – And Follow Jesus?
Nah – Way to simple. 😉
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Ed Chapman
Hmmm? Law vs Grace? – Here’s a little of my uderstanding – today.
When “trying to keep the rules” I’m focused on **self** (What is “Amos “ doing?)
(Don’t do this, don’t do that) and wind up living under the “Law of sin and death?”
As you said – “When you think about the law, you end up breaking the law.”
1 Cor 15:56 …and the strength of sin **is the law.** 😦
But as a believer I’m NO longer under the law – but under grace.
Rom 6:14
Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
I NO longer desire to live under the law. Even my own rules, laws, that I make up.
And I do NOT have to “Live under the law.” because…
1 – We are delivered from the law. Rom 7:6
2 – We are – Dead to the law. Rom 7:4
3 – We are – Not under the law. Rom 7:2
4 – We are – Free from the law. Rom 8:2
5 – The law worketh wrath. Rom 4:15
6 – We are – Redeemed from the curse of the law. Gal 3:13
7 – We are – No longer under a schoolmaster. ( The law.) Gal. 3:25
8 – The law is NOT made for a rightous man. 1 Tim 1:9
9 – By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified. Rom 3:19
10- The law is NOT of faith. Gal 3:12
A simple rule of thumb for me to know where I’m living – under law – or under grace.
1 – When I Focus on **self** – I’m living under the law.
2 – When I Focus on **Jesus** – I’m living under grace.
1 – When I Focus on **self** – I’m living under the law.
What is “ Amos “ doing? – Good or Evil? Is Amos looking more like Jesus? Less Sin?
Hmmm? Am I eating from – That pesky tree again? 😉
2 – When I Focus on **Jesus** – I’m living under grace.
What is “ Jesus “ doing?
Loving – Forgiving – Cleansing Sin – My Sin – Showing Mercy – Laying down His Life.
Hmmm? Am I now eating from the Tree of Life?
His Blood “cleanses me” from “ALL” my sin. Jesus forgives me.
His mercies are “NEW” every morning. And Jesus remembers my sin no more.
That means I don’t have to remember my sin either. It’s gone. 😉
Thank you Jesus… 🙂
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear MY voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Makes sense to me. The guys at SGM say they are hearing God’s voice and following Jesus. So what makes them wrong?
Exactly JoeJoe.
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Ed Chapman
And – Here is how I now see – “5 – The law worketh wrath. Rom 4:15”
Wrath – In the KJV – Also means – Anger – Idignation – Agitation of the soul.
Today, when Religious Leaders, anyone, trys to put me under their Law – Any Law…
My soul is agitated, = feeling or appearing troubled or nervous.
I become indignant = feeling or showing anger or annoyance.
And I exhibit anger = a strong feeling of annoyance, displeasure, or/and hostility.
Yes – The law worketh wrath – in me… 🙂
Jesus loves me this I know…
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Jeff Brown
You write…
“Isn’t the law still a guide to believers, in terms of their sanctification?”
NOT sure I understand the question.
What do you mean by – “in terms of their sanctification?”
What is your understanding of – “sanctification?”
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I don’t think Romans 4:15 is speaking of human wrath but of God’s wrath against transgressors of His law and considering the context of the passage and that no one has even intimated that salvation comes through or is maintained by obedience to the law I don’t think Romans 4:15 applies unless one engages in a little eisegesis. Now I know we don’t want to engage in eisegesis or proof texting here. 🙂
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Hi Wesley
I could be wrong but you seem to be trying to get my attention. 🙂
You address me, AAL, @ MAY 8, 2013 @ 2:26 PM.. Asking…
“Tell me AAL, How does one recognize love? How does one explain to someone else that they are not being loving? Please be specific and not subjective. I am sure the guys at SGM would claim to be very loving so how do we know and explain to them objectively that their actions are not loving.”
Then again @ MAY 9, 2013 @ 9:54 AM
And again @ MAY 9, 2013 @ 11:07 AM
I do NOT mind dis-agreement – Or debate – Learn lots of stuff that way…
And – we can dis-agree about what different verses mean – Lots of interpretations.
And – I think you’ll agree – the Bible should be our standard. Yes?
Now – I do NOT trust pastors – At ALL – Been burned too many times. 😦
But – I love them – And warn them often – They are in the most dangerous profession – 80% say pastoral ministry has had a “negative” effect on their families. 77% do NOT have a good marriage – 70% constantly battle depression. And the list goes on…
And now I ask often…
In the Bible, How many of His Disciples call themself pastor/leader? Because…
In the Bible I can NOT find one of His Disciples who called themself pastor/leader.
Now do you consider that a loving question to ask a pastor/leader?
Can you recognize my love for you in asking you that question?
If that ““Title/Position” pastor/leader is dangerous to you and your family???
If you have taken a “Title/Position” NOT in the Bible – Shouldn’t I let you know?
I asked you, and JoeJoe, important questions awhile back – at least important to me – About the importance of “Qualifications” for pastor/elder/overseer in preventing “Spiritual Abuse.”
Something many have encountered. – From “UN-Qualified” pastor/elder/overseers.
So now I mention qualifications often – So His sheep can protect themselves…
And So – pastor/elder/overseers – who do NOT qualify – can go do something else…
You see,, I noticed, most pastor/elder/overseers “Ignore” or “Twist” the “Qualifications” in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9, so they could obtain for themselves this “Title/Postion” that comes with – Power – Profit – and – Prestige. I know I “Ignored” the qualifications when I was ordained. 😦
And, I just figure, if folks desire this Power – Profit – Prestige enough to “Ignore” 1 Tim 3 and Titus – Then doing what ever it takes to maintain that Power – Profit – Prestige is in their nature and “Spiritual Abuse” is NOT far behind. – Lording it over God’s heritage is NOT far behind.- Exercising Authority like the gentiles is NOT far behind. And allllll the horrible things we hear here.
And you brought up the qualifications first and when I responded,…
Making these tough qualifications for pastor/elder/overseer personal to you…
You “Ignored” the tough qualifications…
And you “Ignored” me… Then…
Why should I trust you? – Now?
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Wesley and JoeJoe
Here is that comment in case you are interested in countinuing…
I reported on just four qualifications But there are many more…
1 – And overseer “Must be” Blameless. 2 – Just. 3 – Holy. 4 – Mange Well his family.
https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/04/24/my-twitter-conversation-with-a-pastor-about-doctrine-and-truth/
A. Amos Love
APRIL 27, 2013 @ 8:54 AM
JoeJoe – Wesley
Was wondering…
How do you explain the tuff Qualifications Paul gives for pastor/elder/overseer?
IMO – this discussion – Qualifications – is important in preventing “Spiritual Abuse.”
I left some info @ APRIL 25, 2013 @ 2:26 PM about…
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless.*
And received NO response – maybe I’m wrong – BUT…
It sounded like JoeJoe is accusing me of something nefarious – ”applying your own standards” – and accusing me of lacking Grace – when I look at Titus, report the qualifications, and give my opinion, for – pastor/elder/overseers?
JoeJoe said @ APRIL 25, 2013 @ 5:33 PM…
“Yes, you are quoting the qualifications in Titus, but you are applying your own standards as to what exactly that looks like. I see this as lacking in the same grace you would expect for a pastor to show you.”
JoeJoe, you might NOT realize it – BUT – Calling it – “applying your own standards” – “lacking the same grace” – is a favorite tactic, scheme, dodge, subterfuge, used by “Pastors who Abuse” and “Pastors addicted to Exercising Authority” to change the subject.
To change the subject from… 1 – For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless.*
To – Amos is “applying your (his) own standards” to the qualifications…
To – Amos is “lacking in the same grace you would expect for a pastor.”
And now – Amos, who is lacking grace, using his own standards, is the subject.
And, the elder/overseer, who does NOT qualify, is NOT blameless, gets a pass.
These “Pastors who Abuse” want to “Silence” people who dis-agree with them.
And – they never like it when I bring up these tuff qualifications that they “Ignore.”
So they accuse those who dis-agree – to change the subject and marginalize them.
Maybe that’s NOT what you intended…
That’s why I asked @ APRIL 26, 2013 @ 11:31 AM – for your standards – From Titus.
IMO – this discussion – Qualifications – is important in preventing “Spiritual Abuse.”
So, I’m asking JoeJoe and Wesley again…
“Was wondering – Have you guys ever researched the qualifications…”
“Would you share your standards for pastor/elder/overseer. – From Titus.”
————-
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
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JoeJoe – Wesley
Here’s what I found out about the Qualifications for pastor/elder/overseer in…
Titus 1:8…
But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
2 – Just
Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament has JUST as…
1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
is wholly conformed to the will of God,
and who therefore needs no rectification in the heart or life
3 – Holy
Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament has HOLY as…
1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious,
Now that’s three tough qualifications for “pastor/elder/overseer.”
1 – Must Be Blameless. 2 – Just. 3 – Holy. — Yes?
“Would you share your standards for pastor/elder/overseer. – From Titus.”
Makes an interesting study – checking out ALL these tough qualifications for “pastor/elder/overseer” – Then checking out those who say they are “pastor/elder/overseer” compared to the qualifications.
I was ordained. I was in “Leadership.”
Folks told me I had this so-called “Gift of Leadership.”
And I “Ignored” these qualifications for pastor/elder/overseer.
But – I do NOT “Ignore” them any more.
Pro 29:5 KJV
A man that flattereth his neighbour spreadeth a net for his feet.
Pro 20:17 KJV
Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.
I believed the flattery – I was special – I was needed – To build the body of Christ.
I deceived myself and wound up eating a lot of gravel.
When you believe the lie you start to die…
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@ Amos,
Sorry, I guess I forgot about a couple of those questions. We were coming up on the weekend and I didn’t really check up on the post, opting to spend more time with my wife and work around the house, and ended up forgetting about it. I don’t have a lot of time right this moment, but let me say that I think these qualifications in 1 Timothy and Titus are important. I think part of the difficulty is that the qualifications are in someways objective, but in other ways subjective. What does it really mean for the person to manage their household well? You bring up the statistic of 80% of pastors saying their ministry having a negative impact on their marriage. What exactly does this mean? In what ways is it negative? What are the doctrinal beliefs of these pastors? Are they maybe trying to improve their marriage? Every couple goes through highs and lows in their marriage. When some of the pastors answered, were they at a low point? What was the specific root of their depression? Maybe it’s not really their ministry, but an underlying issue.
My point is, pastors are still people, who make mistakes, struggle with various aspects of their lives, sin, and can feel hurt. No pastor, not even one of the apostles, could live up to every qualification perfectly 100% of the time. Does that disqualify them then? I don’t think so. We are all imperfect, so God has no choice but to use imperfect people.
As to the issue of people in the Bible not calling themselves “pastor,” even if they didn’t record that in the bible, does not mean that they wren’t in that position. The Bible does speak specifically of some being called to pastor. It would follow therefore that it is a position one can have.
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JoeJoe
You write…
“the qualifications are in someways objective, but in other ways subjective.”
Never did understand this “Subjective” vs “Objective”thing…
Can you say that another way…
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AAL i would say that the following are the qualifications for a pastor/elder are outlined in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1.
I do believe that people were taking the title of pastor/elder/bishop in the early church because Peter references people being elders, Paul gives qualifications for bishops, and Paul describes pastors as a gift given to the churches.
What appears to be your problem with the qualifications for this ministry is that you seem to be expecting perfection instead of continuous growth and conformity to the image of Christ as those in this ministry hear God’s voice and follow Jesus. Those in this ministry are still human so they do not live perfect lives. They make mistakes and they learn and grow.
As for the damage being done to families by pastoral ministry, these same numbers can be found in any and every ministry or vocation where a person does not prioritize properly work, ministry, and home responsibilities.
Sorry to hear about your inability to accept or see the divine wisdom of God in giving the gift of pastors to the churches.
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Subjective = Love your neighbor
Objective = Love your neighbor by forgiving and restoring them when they offend or hurt you
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Wesley
As I said – I do NOT trust pastors – You are NOT helping in my recovery.
You write…
“I do believe that people were taking the title of pastor/elder/bishop
in the early church “
Well, maybe I have NOT explained myself properly…
In the Bible? – NOT your personal beliefs…
Can you name one of His Disciples with the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend?
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Wesley
And – As a personal favor – can you please call me Amos – NOT AAL
Thanks it’s only one more letter. 😉
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No problem. Amos it is.
The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. (1 Peter 5:1-4)
In this passage Peter was convinced that there were some people who were engaged in the ministry of pastor/elder/bishop.
We are not being intellectually honest if we are to assume that God gave pastors to the churches but there were no people who assumed the position or that God gave instructions on what to look for in bishops to be appointed in the churches and no bishops were appointed in the churches.
I don’t believe God made a mistake when He gave the ministry of pastor to the churches. I don’t think it is a matter of trusting those who engage in the pastoral ministry but of trusting in the God who gave them as a gift to the churches.
Sorry about the wrong name. I like Amos better myself.
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Amos,
To add to what Wesley said, see also what Ephesians 4:11-13 says. “So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.”
These verses echo some of the same sentiment as 1 Peter 5:1-4. In addition, it seems to me that there are pastors AND apostles. These could be the same position, but not necessarily so. The disciples didn’t need to call themselves pastors when they were apostles.
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Wesley
I’ve asked this before…
—————–
As I said – I do NOT trust pastors – You are NOT helping in my recovery.
You write…
“I do believe that people were taking the title of pastor/elder/bishop
in the early church “
Well, maybe I have NOT explained myself properly…
In the Bible? – NOT your personal beliefs…
Can you name one of His Disciples with the “Title/Position” pastor/leader/reverend?
—————–
I know this is a tough question to answer – but – give it a try – please…
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Amos,
As to the qualifications for these positions (pastor/elder/bishop), I agree with the definitions you gave for just, holy, and blameless, but I also realize that the only one that fulfills these PERFECTLY, is Christ. Since God did give some to the church to be in these positions, and knowing that no human is perfect, it follows logically, that we cannot expect for these people to fulfill every qualification perfectly 100% of the time.
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Wesley – JoeJoe
JoeJoe writes…
“My point is, pastors are still people, who make mistakes, struggle with various aspects of their lives, sin, and can feel hurt.”
Yeah – They do make mistakes – They do sin – and they should go do something else…
I’m tired of them “Making their Mistakes” on me. 😦
And other defensless Sheep.
Power Corrupts – and absoulute power corrupts absolutly…
Even the best intentioned guys…
Maybe that’s why these very tough qualification you want to “Ignore.”
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Wesley
You write…
“What appears to be “your problem” with the qualifications for this ministry is that you seem to be expecting perfection instead of continuous growth”
Well, I can NOT find “Continuos Growth” as a part of these tough quaifications.
And that seems to be your persanal opinion – NOT based on – 1 Tim or Titus.
Are you saying you do NOT meet these tough qualifications as written?
Seems you are conferming my past experiences with pastor/elder/overseers
Who “Ignore” Or “Twist” what it says in 1 Tim 3 and Titus. Thanks for sumptin…
So, I’ll ask again…
So, I’m asking JoeJoe and Wesley again…
“Was wondering – Have you guys ever researched the qualifications…”
“Would you share your standards for pastor/elder/overseer. – From Titus.”
Titus 1:6-8 KJV
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For *a bishop must be blameless,* as the steward of God; not selfwilled,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
————–
Here is what I found – In Titus – When I checked the Greek – It is Written…
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “must be” *blameless.*
That “Must Be” is a lagal term – Leaving NO wriggle room.
That *must be* is the same Greek word as: …You *must be* born again. John 3:7.
*Must Be* is Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
2 – Just
Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
Thayers – 1) righteous, observing divine laws
1a) in a wide sense, upright, righteous, virtuous, keeping the commands of God
1a2) innocent, faultless, guiltless
1a3) used of him whose way of thinking, feeling, and acting
is wholly conformed to the will of God,
3 – Holy
Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
Thayers – 1) undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
religiously observing every moral obligation, pure holy, pious.
—————–
Are you saying you do NOT meet the qualifications as written?
And are trying to ADD to the scritures “Continuos Growth”
as a part of these tough quaifications? So you can fit in?
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Amos,
You are still committing the same fallacy. You are placing the burden of perfection on pastors. To expect perection of anybody is devoid of grace. That is why Christ came to be our sacrifice for us. God knew that he could not expect us to meet the standard of perfection, so he made another way…grace through Christ’s death.
Knowing that people cannot meet the standard of absolute perfection, and knowing that God gave some to have these positions, it MUST follow that we cannot expect perfection from these people, but growth in their relationship with the Lord, ie, santification.
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JoeJoe
Thanks for the reply – I mean that…
You write…
“ Since God did give some to the church to be in these positions,
and knowing that no human is perfect,
**it follows logically,**
that we cannot expect for these people to fulfill
every qualification perfectly 100% of the time.”
**it follows logically,** Hmmm? Depends on who’s logic we are interested in.
To me **it follows logically,**
if these wanna-bees do NOT qualify they should go do something else.
You write @ MAY 9, 2013 @ 1:05 PM….
““My point is, pastors are still people, who make mistakes,
struggle with various aspects of their lives, sin, and can feel hurt.”
Yeah – They do make mistakes – They do sin – and they should go do something else…
I’m tired of them “Making their Mistakes” on me. 😦
And other defensless Sheep. Who suffer horribly – for long years – NO Stop it…
Well – Power Corrupts – and absoulute power corrupts absolutly… Yes?
And todays pastors are big on Exercising Authority, Lording it over God’s heritage.
Just having that “Title” separates them from the common folks.
And gives them Power – over the people – That’s what “Title” do.
They are the Clergy – We are the Lay People. – Is that In the Bible?
They are the Leaders – We are the Followers. – NO more Following Jesus…
And many, yes many – like the Power – Profit – Prestige that come with the “Title.”
How many “Mistakes?” How much “Spiritual Abuse” is acceptable to you?
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JoeJoe
To you it looks like a fallacy – I understand
And I know it’s tough for folks to admit their pastor does NOT Qualify.
So I say – Your fallacy is – there “Must BE” pastor/elder/overseers – NO matter what – Damn the qualifications… Or, “Ignore” them… Or “Twist” them….
Don’t know “IF” you ever Noticed – In Titus – Paul leaves Titus “a way out.”
A way where Titus does NOT have to ordain anyone as an elder/overseer
“IF” they do NOT qualify according to this tough list.
Titus 1:5-7 KJV
5… and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 *IF* any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 **For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
Don’t know if you have noticed this – But…
In Titus 1:5, Paul tells Titus, …ordain elders in every city.
BUT – In verse 6, Paul “Introduces a Condition”
“Before” Titus ordains anyone – by saying…
5… and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 – *IF* any “be blameless.”
This is a very large, little, word: *IF.*
This *IF* is found many times in scripture. Yes?
Gen 18:26, Gen 18:28, Gen 18:30, Psalm 66:18, Psalm 130:3, Isa 1:19, Isa 1:20, Jer 18:8, Jer 18:10, Jer 22:5, Eze 3:19, Eze 18:21, Eze 33:9, Eze 33:13, John 5:31, John 8:31, John 8:54, John 12:26, etc., etc,…
This “IF” in “Titus sounds like “IF” someone is NOT blameless then do NOT ordain them.
Because – In verse 7, Paul explains why he “Introduces this Conditional” *IF*
7 – For a bishop “must be” “Blameless.”
Titus 1:5… and ordain elders…
Titus 1:6 **IF** any be blameless…
Titus 1:7 For a bishop *must be* blameless…
Titus 1:8 …Just, Holy…
Must Be – Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
Blameless – Thayers – that cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
Just – Thayers – observing divine laws, innocent, faultless, guiltless, wholly conformed to the will of God.
Holy – Thayers – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness, observing every moral obligation, pure holy.
It is NOT my demanding perfection – It is written
Here’s a question for you – After Paul gives thes tough qualifications
Does Timothy, or Titus, ordain anyone as – pastor/elder/overseer
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So Amos you are denying that Peter in 1 Peter indicates that there are people who are engaged in the pastoral ministry and are elders?
I understand that you have had a bad experience but that does not change Scripture.
Amos are you also saying that when God gave pastors and the elders that Peter mentions are perfect people who do not sin, do not make mistakes, and have become conformed exactly to the image of Christ?
Yes I do meet the qualifications Amos or I would not be involved in the pastoral ministry. Now I confess that my children do not always obey but I still rule my house by instructing and correcting them when they do not obey. I do not know everything but I am apt to teach the things that God has taught me as I listen to His voice and follow Jesus. I am not greedy of filthy lucre but I will be upset tomorrow if my employer does not give me my paycheck for the last two weeks. People and situations can anger me but I have not brawled since I have been converted. I enjoy the company of other people but there are times when I want to be with just my family or alone. Vine defines “just” as “righteous or a state of being right or right conduct as judged by the Divine standard” so I am righteous because I have been made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. “Holy” is defined by Vine as “pure from evil conduct and observant of God’s will. I am holy because I have been made a part of a holy nation through salvation in Christ. I am not perfect but I am being perfected. Now your evaluation of me and any other person in the pastoral ministry will depend on which moment you observe me. Unfortunately Scripture indicates that the good work that God began in us at salvation is a constant work until the day of Jesus Christ no matter what ministry God uses us in.
Just some observations:
— You ask me to conform to definitions that include conformity to a law that you say we should not be even look at. Hmmmmm…..
–You imply no one can be just when God describes Lot as “just lot”.
–You seem to deny God’s sovereign guidance even in the unpleasant and hurtful experiences of life. Joseph seems to have seen things differently and Romans 8:28 directs us to see things differently if we are going to be just and holy. 🙂
–You say God doesn’t see your sins but seem to imply that if someone ministers as a pastor that not only God sees their sins but you do as well.
–You seem to be implying that there should be no pastors when Scripture clearly indicates that God has given pastors as part of the instrumentality for the perfecting of the saints.
–You assume a dichotomy of clergy and laity that neither JoeJoe nor myself has even hinted exists. As a matter of fact, I have gone to great lengths in posts to makes sure everyone understands that I see pastoral ministers as having no more authority than anyone else in the congregation.
Well that’s all for now. I have to engage in a little pastoral ministry tonight without a title. 🙂
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A Amos Love you said:
“Yeah – They do make mistakes – They do sin – and they should go do something else…
I’m tired of them “Making their Mistakes” on me. 😦
And other defensless Sheep. Who suffer horribly – for long years – NO Stop it…
Preach it Amos, You bless me, and your comments set me free, truth is supposed to do that, aye? Baby steps for scared Gail…
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Wes,
You said:
“I have to disagree with the statement that we no longer need a school master. ”
Galatians 3:25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Where is your faith?
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Wes,
You said:
I don’t think Romans 4:15 is speaking of human wrath but of God’s wrath against transgressors of His law and considering the context of the passage and that no one has even intimated that salvation comes through or is maintained by obedience to the law I don’t think Romans 4:15 applies unless one engages in a little eisegesis. Now I know we don’t want to engage in eisegesis or proof texting here.
Romans 4 cannot be read in context without Romans 5.
Before the law
When?
Before the law, sin was in the world, but sin is not IMPUTED where there is no law.
NOW take it back to Romans 4…all of it. The conversation was in regards to ABRAHAM who did not have the law.
Abraham was BEFORE THE LAW.
Now re-read Romans 4:15.
Abraham did not receive God’s wrath because he did not fall under the law, and we all know that “For all have sinned”, but his sin WAS NOT IMPUTED. Why?
Because Law works wrath.
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Wesley,
Amos asked about “title”, not position.
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A Amos Love
Thanks for all of your kind words.
I have another one for you:
Colossians 2:20-21
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Ed
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Jeff,
I am naturally sarcastic in my tone. I mean no ill will to anyone with my sarcastic tone. To put that in a sarcastic tone, “DEAL WITH IT”. Just kidding.
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You are not kidding, Ed.
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Wes,
The schoolmaster’s use is to bring us to faith. You use it as a MEASURING tool, to see how you measure to God’s standards. That isn’t the way to use the school master. When you measure yourself to God’s standards, you fail.
You say that obeying the law of Moses is a joy.
Do you go home at night, and say to yourself, “It’s a joy that I didn’t steal anything at work today, not even a company pen!”?
That is a pat on your back, and you are doing the patting. That is what being obedient to the law of Moses is.
Controlling yourself to not sin is being obedient to the law of Moses.
That is works. You will never measure up, so just submit (relax) to Christ.
You, as a Pastor, should USE THE LAW OF MOSES (The School master) to bring others to faith, not to measure your own obedience to the schoolmaster.
Ed
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Julie Anne,
It’s funny, in a way, how that when the internet first came out that there was all of a sudden, out of nowhere, etiquette police. No one cared how people spoke before that time. I have been a fan of debates since…well, since watching professional wrestling on TV back in the 70’s. They were “oh, so polite” before a match. NOT. I never heard of a polite toned debate before the internet.
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Ed, did you miss my sarcasm? You normally catch it – lol.
Debates since Playboy Buddy Rose, eh? LOL You are funny.
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Julie Anne,
You bet I got it. Ya, them were the days. Them were the good ole days. Last time I saw him in person was in 1982 in Yakima. I worked setting up the ring, and was bell ringer. Big Time Wrestling!! Miss it.
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Chap, how do you know that you are being conformed to the image of Christ? How do you explain to someone else what conformity to Christ looks like? I need you to give me something objective. Hitler, Pol Pot, and the SGM guys all claimed to be operating in love. So let’s move beyond gut feelings less we have to congratulate these guys for their zealous love.
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Jeff,
You asked:
“Isn’t the law still a guide to believers, in terms of their sanctification?”
The answer is a huge “no”.
The Holy Spirit is what guides a believer to sanctification, not the law. If you rely on the law to guide you, then you are attempting to be “obedient” to the law to conform you to the image of Christ. That means that you are “working” to be conformed. That isn’t the sanctification process. We don’t look to the law to be sanctified. Sanctification is the Holy Spirit’s job, not the law. The law shows that we need a savior. We have that savior. Now that we have that savior, no law is needed, except to bring others into the sheepfold.
From what I can assess, Wesley is using the law to measure himself to God’s righteousness (on a continuous basis), even tho he acknowledges that salvation does not come by obeying the law.
Romans 3:**
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
The law does NOT SPEAK to those who are not under the law. So why use the law, except to bring others into the sheepfold?
Ed
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Wesley,
Gut feelings is necessary, because God gave us all a gut feeling when he created us. It’s called a conscience. It is otherwise known as the law written in our hearts. People can and do go against their conscience, i.e. SGM, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc.
But, I think that you are discussing two different things in this topic.
1. You use the law to measure YOURSELF.
2. You use the law to measure others.
I have no problem with you using #2. It shows that we are all sinners.
However, I have a problem with you using #1 to measure yourself.
Ed
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Wesley,
Let me add to the last, above response. If you use the law to measure other believers sanctification process, that is wrong, too.
John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
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So how does one know their conscience is not seared (1 Tim 4:2), defiled (Tit 1:15), weak (1 Cor 8:7), or evil (Heb 10:22)?
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Chap, how do you know Hitler, Pol Pot, and the SGM guys went against their conscience and not just your conscience?
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Notice that you did not use the law to measure…you used the NT writings.
You mean to tell me that you need it in writing in order for you to know when a person is doing wrong (The law)?
How do I know that Hitler, Pol Pot, and the SGM guys went against their conscience?
Let me ask, how do you know?
Like I said, I have no problem of you using the law to show that others are sinners. I have a problem with you using the law for your own measure.
You already were (past tense, not present tense) under the school master. That is what brought YOU to faith. YOU are no longer under the school master.
But there are others that you mention that REJECT Jesus and are NOT disciples of Jesus. The Law speaks to THEM, and you use it correctly, but you use it incorrectly for YOURSELF.
Ed
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I don’t know that they went against their conscience. I know that they went against my conscience. I will concede that Hitler and Pol Pot were not followers of Christ. I am not sure about the SGM guys. So if I accept their testimony that they are disciples of Christ then I cannot demonstrate their actions are unacceptable through the moral principles of Scripture. There is no reason to believe that they would accept “My conscience tells me you are wrong” as a valid critique when their conscience does not say they are wrong. So how do I communicate to these professed followers of Christ that they are wrong without an appeal to the moral principles contained in Scripture?
What about my other question:
Wesley Roy
MAY 10, 2013 @ 5:49 AM
So how does one know their conscience is not seared (1 Tim 4:2), defiled (Tit 1:15), weak (1 Cor 8:7), or evil (Heb 10:22)?
By the way Chap, the conversation has been quite enjoyable and I do think we are closer to agreement than either one of us is willing to admit. 🙂
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Wesley,
Break this down, please:
John 13:35
By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
All men knows what love is.
Matthew 5:46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Even the “publicans” love, although they only love those who love them. They just don’t love their enemies.
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Chap, love is subjective. You will remember that the SGM guys claim to be motivated by love for God and the people involved. You have to move out of the mystical into the concrete or else you are left with, “You have to change your behavior because my gut feeling tells me that you are not loving correctly”. That just changes the who gets to make the arbitrary decisions.
Scripture is filled with illustrations of love but unfortunately our current bent on lawlessness prevents us from even acknowledging them because they are couched in moral absolutes and moral practices. Love consists of actions and attitudes outlined in Scripture such as self-sacrifice, providing for the needy, instructing/correcting sinful behavior (don’t exactly know how to do this without referencing all of Scripture as Scripture teaches), encouraging, edifying,etc. All of this really becomes quite meaningless and culturally driven when all moral principles and practices observable in Scripture are relegated to the trash heap unless a person is unconverted.
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Wesley,
You said:
I am not sure about the SGM guys.
Why are you not sure? Faith without works is dead. What are their works? We know that James was discussing Love Thy Neighbor as yourself (the royal law) as works, and referenced Abraham in the process of his works (who was before the law).
If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Revelation 2:2
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
The Fruit of the Spirit also. That is not in the law of Moses.
Galatians 5:**
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Do the SGM guys represent these things? So, if you can’t judge whether the SGM guys are not the disciples of Christ unless you see it in writing in the law of Moses, then how do you discern anything?
Ed
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Wes,
You keep saying the following:
love is subjective.
If you don’t know what love is “in the gut”, then I feel sorry for you. I showed you that God acknowledges that Abraham loved Isaac. God did not have to tell Abraham what love was or is before Abraham finally got it, that he loved his son. But it seems as tho you need a definition in writing in the law of Moses.
Love is an emotion, and if that emotion is not put into action as James 2 indicates, then their faith is dead, and they fall under the law of Moses.
All people know what love is, even the publicans, who are under the law of Moses.
But Abraham knew love before the Law of Moses.
So, I don’t get your “love is subjective” mode.
Ed
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How do you know your gut feelings are not defiled (Tit 1:15), weak (1 Cor. 8:7), evil (Heb 10:22), and/or hardened (1 Tim 4:2)? That is one reason following gut feelings is not a good idea unless you want to accept that the gut feelings of everyone are valid.
Love is subjective because different people feel loved based on different criteria. Sarah may have felt loved when Abraham gave her away as a concubine twice to gain his own safety but my wife would not consider that love. Sarah may have felt loved when Abraham fathered a child with another woman but Mrs. Roy would not consider that love under any conditions. Clearly we must be instructed in what actions make a person feel loved. God has provided us with this information in Scripture as moral principles so that we would know what He perceives as love for Him and our neighbor. Now what you call the principles is irrelevant. You can call them the law of Moses, Abraham, Issac, or Jacob. You can call them the royal law. You can call them the law of Christ. It doesn’t matter. It is purely semantic.
If we deny this then there is no basis for correcting the SGM guys are anyone else for that matter. One cannot expect them to submit to their gut feelings while they deny the SGM guys the right to call others to submit to their gut feelings. There is no way to know which gut feeling is correct unless we look to Scripture for God’s revelation of His moral character through specific principles.
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Wes asked:
So how does one know their conscience is not seared (1 Tim 4:2), defiled (Tit 1:15), weak (1 Cor 8:7), or evil (Heb 10:22)?
Based on the references that you provided, they are all qualified. There is a huge difference between The Old Covenant defiled/weak/evil compared to the New Testament defiled/weak/evil.
Anything that is not of faith is defiled, weak and evil. The law is not of faith, and the strength of sin is the law. Without the law, sin has no strength at all. That is why Abraham didn’t need the law. He had faith, and that is all that is needed.
Do the SGM guys fall under the law of faith, or the law of Moses?
Titus 1:**
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
We judge them by their works. They are disobedient to FAITH, and THAT puts them under the law of Moses.
Faith is the Law, I already showed you that. We are under faith, not the law of Moses. The SGM guys are disobeying faith and therefore are under the law of Moses.
Isn’t there any discerning in your gut?
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Wes,
I wish to dispel any negative thing that you say about Abraham.
Genesis 26:**
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
There are people that are teaching that Abraham disobeyed God, did not seek God’s council, had lack of faith, etc.
Not according to Genesis 26:5 or Romans Chapter 4.
Ed
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Where can I find “faith” described so that I know when someone is disobeying it? I don’t think the definitions in Hebrews 11 allow for faith to be disobeyed. Now if by faith you mean a body of doctrine then I am right there with you. We are back to moral principles and practices outlined in Scripture.
I have the gut feeling that you are continuing to say your gut is right and the SGM guys guts are wrong and it is simply because in your gut you feel they are wrong. If they listened to that then they would be allowing you to do to them what you do not want them to do to you.
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Chap, I am not being negative about Abraham just presenting the facts as recorded in Scripture. Abraham used his wife for a shield for personal harm and fathered a child with another woman. He is in good company. David the man after God’s heart committed adultery and killed a man. Just Lot fathered his own grandchildren. The list goes on and on. I think there is a passage describing Abraham and all the rest of us in Romans 3 that says we have all sinned. It appears that humans have been sinners even before God revealed His moral character to Israel through Moses.
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WOW
Youse guys are sumptin else. 😉
I Come in this morning excited – lookin to shed some light and dispel the darkness. 😉
And 28 comments to be read… You guys have been busy…
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Gail
Nice to hear from you – And nice to hear your loving words….
They mean more to me today then I can explain – But thank you muchly… 😉
“You bless me, and your comments set me free,
truth is supposed to do that, aye? Baby steps for scared Gail…”
This battle, As much as I enjoy the verbal jousting, is difficult at times….
When you say – “your comments set me free,” makes this battle worth it all…
For me – That is the highest compliment anyone can give – and I’ll receive.
Eph 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world,
against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Maybe we can dream together – that these pastors – who do NOT qualify – who Abuse – Will go away and “Make their Mistakes” someplace else. And leave “US” Sheepies – His Sheep – Alone… 😉
Yeah – I smiled at that line after I wrote it – Sounds like it’s straight out of heaven
To dream … the impossible dream …
To fight … the unbeatable foe …
To bear … with unbearable sorrow …
To run … where the brave dare not go …
To right … the unrightable wrong …
To love … pure and chaste from afar …
To try … when your arms are too weary …
To reach … the unreachable star …
This is my quest, to follow that star …
No matter how hopeless, no matter how far …
To fight for the right, without question or pause …
To be willing to march into Hell, for a Heavenly cause …
And I know if I’ll only be true, to this glorious quest,
That my heart will lie will lie peaceful and calm,
when I’m laid to my rest …
And the world will be better for this:
That one man, scorned and covered with scars,
Still strove, with his last ounce of courage,
To reach … the unreachable star …
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Wesley
Thanks – You keep bringing up Peter in 1 Peter – here @ MAY 9, 2013 @ 4:03 PM…
And before @ MAY 9, 2013 @ 2:06 PM – You write…
“In this passage Peter was convinced that there were some people who were engaged in the ministry of pastor/elder/bishop.”
Okay But – What’s you’re point – That Todays Paid Professional Pastors are like them?
These elders in 1 Peter are NOTHING like pastor/elder/oveerseers we see today.
These elders were NOT different from the folks – by dress – by position – by “Title.”
These elders were NOT – Paid, Professional, Pastors, Preaching, to People, in Pews.
These elders did NOT have the word “Grace” in the “Title” of **their** church.
Rule of Thumb – If “GRACE” is in the “Title” – You will NOT find much in the group.
These elders Peter is talking to seemed to take what Jesus taught to heart.
NOT one elder took the Title shepherd. – NOT one took the Name of the Lord in Vain.
NOT one called themself pastor/shepherd – They pointed to the “ONE” Shepherd.
NOT one of them called themself “Leader” – Jesus said He is the “ONE” Leader.
Seems, In the Bible, the only one with the “Title” Shepherd/Leader is {{{ Jesus.}}}
And the elders in 1 Peter, and the Bible, Believed Jesus was the “ONE” Shepherd.
Maybe you can learn something from these elders – and STOP calling yourself pastor.
NOT one of His Disciples took the ”Title” pastor – Or called themself pastor. 😉
Wouldn’t you like to be like one of His Disciples? After your “Continuous Growth?”
Jesus said, ALL ye are brethren – I like Jesus – A Lot.
ALL elders humbled themselves, called themselves “Servants.” And came to serve and NOT be served. Because Jesus – as Man – humbled Himself, made Him self of NO reputation, And took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8
And Jesus said, in John 5:41-44, – I receive NOT honor from men…
…How can you believe who receive honor one of another.
When they love to be is called Pastor, Pastor, in the market place?
Aren’t they receiving honor from man?
Jesus said – He who speaks of himself seeks his own glory. John 7:18
And todays pastor/leader/reverend speaks a lot about themself. – Self promoting???
ALL their works they do for to be seen of men, and love the chief seats.
They place their Name and “Title” on Diploma’s, Licences, placed on office walls.
“Engraven” on office doors, and secretarys desks, and Web Sites.
“Engraven” on business cards, that are handed out, and name tags at luncheons.
“Engraven” on the Sunday Morning bulletin, and on the curb side street sign.
And “Clergy” signs placed on car windows…
And anyone who reads them knows who “the Pastor” is. Yes?
Are todays pastor/leader/reverends anything like the humble elders in 1 Peter?
Did any elder in 1 Peter announce? – They are a Gift from God to believers?
“We are NOT being intellectually honest if we are to assume that”
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A.AmosLove- Music video & words gave me holy shivers! Jesus is our Star.
When I think of Christ scars, how many have been scared by false teachings, I weep with the hope knowing that “one day every tear will be wiped away”
They might be able to hide their abuse now behind their elevated positions however a day is coming…
“For everything that is hidden will eventually be brought into the open, and every secret will be brought to light.”
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
I will let y’all continue your conversation. Peace to you Amos!
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Gail
Good one – “Jesus is our Star” – Yes, our light.
I’ll go listen to the song again.
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Okay Amos, you are making a lot of assumptions. These assumptions may characterize your failed attempt at pastoral ministry but they do not describe everyone’s pastoral ministry.
Your argument about what the elders Peter is speaking of were called is unfounded. You are arguing from silence.
It appears that you cannot see the sovereign hand of God at work in your previous unpleasant experience. No problem.
It is pretty simple. God gave the gift of pastors to the churches so there are pastors in the churches. God gave qualifications and sent men to ordain bishops in the churches so there are bishops in the churches. Peter addressed the elders in the churches so there are elders in the churches.
Your problem is with terminology. I doubt any of them care what you call them.
Your problem is with having experienced someone lording it over the flock. Everyone is not doing that.
Your problem is that you tried to do something you were not qualified to do. That doesn’t mean no one is qualified.
Your problem is that you are expecting someone to never make mistakes when you make them. God doesn’t expect that. He gives grace even to people involved in the pastoral ministry (note no title).
You have stereotyped and falsely accused all people engaged in a particular ministry because of your limited experience. Thank God Jesus didn’t let His bad experience on Calvary color his opinion of humanity.
This may not help your recovery but it is clear that you have no qualms with dismissing off hand the leadership of God in the lives of other people. If your assumed superior knowledge, even of unrecorded events, is an indication of your effort at pastoral ministry, I see why you think that people are in danger of abuse by those in the ministry possessing your attitude with a different agenda.
Having experienced abuse is no reason to heap abuse on others simply because they are involved in the same ministry that the person who abused you was involved in.
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Wes,
You said:
“Abraham used his wife for a shield for personal harm and fathered a child with another woman. ”
That is not fact. That is opinion. A wrong one at that.
Romans Chapter 4 discusses Abraham’s faith PRIOR TO as well as AFTER circumcision, and Genesis 26 states that Abraham obeyed everything.
I totally disagree with your assessment, based on what is written in regards to the righteousness that was IMPUTED to Abraham.
This tells me that Abraham KNEW his wife would be safe, because SHE is the KEY to the promise that God made.
When Abraham was asked by the the leaders why he did what he did, he qualified it by saying that he didn’t believe that the FEAR OF GOD WAS IN THIS PLACE.
Since the story about faith begins with Abraham, how come you don’t study those things about faith that is PRIOR to the law?
It is simple. God promised Abraham something, and he believed God, against all odds, Abraham STILL believed God, even to the point of giving up his wife to the Pharaoh he STILL believed God. Even to the point of sacrificing his own son, he believed God, in that God would raise his son up from the dead in order for God’s promise to take place.
Yes, Hebrews 11 explains it all.
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Wesley
Oops – Bad assumption on your part – You write…
“ These assumptions may characterize your failed attempt at pastoral ministry but they do not describe everyone’s pastoral ministry.”
Whoooaaa – Who said I failed at pastoral ministry – I never said there are NO pastors – We just do NOT know who they are in the Bible – And we do NOT know who they are in the Body – IMO – The least likely to be pastor are the ones who have to tell you they are by taking a “Title.” “Rule of Thumb” If someone has to tell you they’re a pastor, they are Church Leaders – Mostt likely they are NOT. 😉
What we have here is a failure to communicate – Just because I left “the Corrupt Religious System,” with all it’s high and mighty “Titles” NOT foud in the Bible – Just because I realized – NOT one of His Disciples had that “Title.” And just because I left “The Abusive Religious System” to become a freeman – A believer walking in Liberty – How does that equate to “your failed attempt at pastoral ministry?”
I’m still shepherding, feeding, careing for believers – And Caring for you, you, Wesley Roy. I’m feeding you the word of God – shedding light to dispel your darkness, your Commandmensts of Men, your Doctrines of Men, Your “Traditions of Men,” that Cancel, and Make Void the word of God. Mark 7:13.
I mean, I’m even suggesting you look into becoming one of His Disciples?
You know, where you “Deny Yourself,” pick up your cross and follow Jesus.
And where you “Forsake ALL” – “Titles” – Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory.
And become one of His Disciples – Learning Directly from Jesus – NO middle man.
I count this an honor to talk to you about these wonderful works of God.
I undertand that you are just one of “The Lost.” And I’m still seeking after you. 🙂
Jesus upbraided the Shepherds of Isreal in Ezek 34…
Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel…
… 4 The diseased have ye not strengthened,
neither have ye healed that which was sick,
neither have ye bound up that which was broken,
neither have ye brought again that which was driven away,
**neither have ye sought that which was lost;**
I undertand that you are just one of “The Lost.” And I’m still seeking after you. 🙂
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Wes,
You assume that Abraham committed adultery, and I showed you scripture debunking that idea. Well, here is more stuff you said:
David the man after God’s heart committed adultery and killed a man. Just Lot fathered his own grandchildren.
David was indeed “under the law”. Lot was not. There was no such law against incest in the days of Lot. And if you know the story behind it, it wasn’t about sexual sins to begin with. It was about the daughters not having children to pass on heirs.
Wow, I can’t believe my eyes in what I read from you…a pastor. It boggles my mind.
Without faith, it is impossible to please God.
Faith pleases God, not the deeds (works/obeying/doing) of the law of Moses.
I guess when it is stated that faith without works is dead, you equate that with faith without obedience to the law of Moses is dead?
Law of faith:
EXACT WORDS:
Romans 3:27
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Why do you not know about that law…pastor?
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Wes,
You said:
” It appears that humans have been sinners even before God revealed His moral character to Israel through Moses.”
I already covered that. Abraham was not under any law of Moses. Romans 4 and 5. No sin could be IMPUTED to Abraham, even tho he was a sinner.
That is the same for a Christian.
1 John 3:9
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
CANNOT SIN…CANNOT, CANNOT, CANNOT.
It does not say, should not.
Why? Because we are not under the law, we are dead to the law. Why do you keep looking to the law?
Yes, for all have sinned, but to whom sin is IMPUTED TO is another question. Under the law=yes, not under the law=no.
Ed
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Hi Ed Chapman
Wrote this earlier – Did NOT post it
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You write @ MAY 9, 2013 @ 6:18 PM….
Wesley,
Amos asked about “title”, not position.
————
Yes – You understand…
It does NOT make sense to these “Lost’ guys….
They gotta have that “title” – They can NOT see – I’m talking about “Titles.”
“Titles” become “Idols” – If they lose the “Title” what’s left???
Who are they? Who will recognise how important they are?
Oh Man – The Law of Faith…
Now I gotta go copy a bunch more of your comments…
They ‘re NOT trademarked? Are they?
And study them – this is good stuff…
Are we really allowed to have this much fun… 😉
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Ed
In my experience with having been,ordained, in “Leadership.” And…
In my experience with the “Title” and “Position” of **Today’s** “Pastor/Leader,”
“Titles” become “Idols” ………………. “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-11 KJV
“Pastors” become “Masters” ………. A No, No, Mat 23:10 KJV
An “Idol,” an addiction, difficult to lay down, hard to walk away from.
Because, **Today’s** “Titles” come with something “A Little Bit Extra.”
Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Reputation, Recognition, etc…
All “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-7. All those things Jesus spoke against.
All those things that are highly esteemed among men.
Luke 16:15
…but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men
is abomination in the sight of God.
Jesus told “His Disciples” NOT to “Exercise Authority.” Mark 10:41, Mat 20:25.
Peter, 1 Pet 5:3, said, Neither as being lords over God’s heritage… but, examples…
In my experience…
Everyone who assumes the “Title” and “Position” of “Pastor/Leader,”
No matter how loving, eventually…
No matter how humble, eventually…
No matter how much a servant, eventually…
Will “exercise authority” and “lord it over” God’s sheep. (Guilty as charged.)
That’s always the beginning of “Spiritual Abuse.” 😦
When you assume the “Title” and “Position” of **Today’s** “Pastor/Leader,”
automatically – you are “Exercising Authority” and “lording it over” God’s heritage.
Because that “title” comes with – Power – Profit – Prestige…
Yup – “Titles” become “Idols” – And if you will NOT bow to the “Title” – the “Idol”
“Church Discipline” will be on the way…
Still – Other sheep – Will look for guidence – From a “Mere Fallible Human”
And – NOT – Look to the “ONE” Shepherd and Bishop of their soul – Jesus.
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A Amos Love
heheh…not trade marked at all. It’s all bible.
It is natural, however, to so much want to please God that we seem to think that being obedient to the law of Moses accomplishes that in order to “become” holy and conformed to the image of Christ.
Not many can fathom that we don’t have to do anything at all except to believe God’s promise, and our actions are according to the believing. That is the key. If you believe a promise (WHAT OUR FAITH IS BASED ON), then your ACTIONS will reflect that belief. That is why Abraham didn’t need law. His righteous actions were based on belief of a promise.
Everyone wants to please God. There is no doubt. But how that is accomplished is different for some.
The one thing that I learned is that whatever we “think” in our logic, it’s the exact opposite with God.
Take for example that God is light, and God resides in the light.
Our logic states that darkness is the absence of light. But it’s the exact opposite with God. Light is the absence of darkness.
Darkness had to be “created”.
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
Light, already existing, is formed, but darkness is created.
I say that to say that some believe that we must do something to please God. But God states to believe something, and then God watches our actions based on that belief. Our actions to law isn’t what pleases God. Our actions to belief pleases God.
I don’t understand how Wesley doesn’t see this. He wants me to tell him about faith.
He asked:
“Where can I find “faith” described so that I know when someone is disobeying it?”
How is it that he, a preacher, doesn’t know anything about faith? I am perplexed.
Ed
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