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Calvary Chapel is a “franchise” of churches with over 1,500 churches founded by Pastor Chuck Smith. There is no hierarchy structure in place to hold pastors accountable if they behave like bullies or abuse their authority. In light of the upcoming hearing March 4/5, 2013, I want to highlight personal stories.
Please be sure to read these posts for further information on this case. Tina’s story is only one of countless stories. Other stories are of alleged money corruption, alleged physical and sexual abuse.
More articles can be found in these posts:
#WhoWouldJesusSue: Media FAQs and Resources
#WhoWouldJesusSue: Breaking News Advisory – Press Release #1
In August of 2012, I visited Calvary Chapel Abuse blog after noticing hits on my blog from that site (Huge legal victory for Free Speech and Church Abuse bloggers). After reading Alex’s story, I reached out to him, encouraging him as he was hearing rumblings of the possibility that his father might sue him.
Weeks later, Calvary Chapel Visalia Pastor Bob Grenier’s attorneys issued a press release acknowledging their intentions to file a defamation lawsuit. One person named as defendant on the press release was Tina Jenkins. In September of 2012, Tina contacted me. We exchanged several e-mails and I asked if she could tell me her story for publication on my blog. She agreed and started working on her story.
Eventually, Bob and Gayle Grenier did file a lawsuit against their step-son/son and former church member, Tim Taylor; however, Tina’s name was absent from the lawsuit. Of course that was a huge relief to Tina, but she said I could still tell her story. She was strongly connected to the situation and wanted something to be done about the problems she saw at Calvary Chapel Visalia. I’ve been saving her story all this time. Tina had been sharing bits and pieces of her story on the Calvary Chapel Abuse blog, but here it is in its entirety. It is a bold and brave step to speak out against an abuser. Thank you, Tina. Your voice is one of many who has suffered this kind of treatment from a pastor.
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O Lord, who may abide in Your tent?
Who may dwell on Your holy hill?
2 He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness,
And speaks truth in his heart.
3 He does not slander with his tongue,
Nor does evil to his neighbor,
Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
4 In whose eyes a reprobate is despised,
But who honors those who fear the Lord;
He swears to his own hurt and does not change;
5 He does not put out his money at interest,
Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent.
He who does these things will never be shaken.
Psalm 15
The following is Tina’s story, in her own words, reflecting her thoughts and opinions of her experiences at Calvary Chapel Visalia under Pastor Bob Grenier.
Tina’s Calvary Chapel Visalia Story
September 28, 2012
Written by Tina Jenkins
I started attending Calvary Chapel Visalia in the fall of 1988. What appealed to me at that time was the very relaxed style, the jeans, shorts and flip-flops. I was born Catholic and married a man who was Methodist, so we had to find a church we both agreed upon. I had a wonderful friend who attended CCV at the time and she encouraged me to come check it out.
The first year or so, I volunteered in the Children’s Ministry where I taught third and fourth grade. It was there I met Paul Grenier, he was in my class. Those were good memories for me. Paul was both smart and funny. He always held a special place in my heart along with a handful of other students. I was newly married with no kids of my own, probably about 21 or 22.
As a new Christian, I was eager to serve and learn. The first interesting thing I remember was, the name changed to Immanuel Christian Fellowship. If my memory serves me right, Bob told the congregation it was so he could teach freely. I never questioned it, I trusted Bob. I also noticed during that time, that many really good people left. I was too young to question anything, I loved this new church I found. I trusted Bob and had no idea he had a sinister side to him. Knowing what I do now, I wish I would have left like the rest of them.
Years, had gone by and I had four children and I was busy with them. I only attended church and was not involved. As the kids began to get a little older around 2002, I was approached by a pastor on staff and asked if I would be interested in the Children’s Ministry. That was something I had never considered and didn’t think I could run three services. After some thought, I decided that I would give it a try. I loved it! Working with the children and awesome teachers that we had, blessed me so much!
I served with my whole heart as unto the Lord. I even set my family aside many times to serve, which I shouldn’t have. I did notice from time to time there was an over emphasis on the building, café and church grounds at the expense of the people. The children’s ministry and the youth ministry struggled while the main sanctuary and anything that had to do with the adults was deluxe. It made my heart ache. But I did what I could to make the children’s ministry the best it could be.
During that time Bob hired a good friend of mine who worked hard, from sun up to sun down. I never and I mean never saw him sitting around being lazy. This man was a brand new believer and was eager to serve the Lord. Bob capitalized on that and began to work him relentlessly. It was almost disgusting the way that Bob had this gentleman cater to him, like Bob was the president and he was his slave. But this guy loved Bob and would have done anything for him. Something happened that Bob decided to let him go. Bob said that he wasn’t performing his job. Ok that’s fine, but there are ways to let people go especially in the church. I believe that it should have been handled in a way that didn’t crush his spirit. When he was let go, I was very disturbed by it because I knew he did work hard and I couldn’t understand it.
Something about this whole situation didn’t make sense. When it was announced in a staff meeting, they asked if everyone was OK with that or something to that manner. I remember saying, “No.” As I can recall, I was the only one that had anything to really say. Everyone was just quiet. I looked around and thought what is wrong with you people, you’re all ok with it? (Now I know why they were silent, they knew Bob better than I did apparently.) I left that meeting shaking my head, but I didn’t know that I would be continually harassed by Bob from that point on. He was always asking me how I was doing and not in a concerned way, more like trying to find out what side of the fence I was on. One afternoon while I was working in one of the classrooms, the church secretary came in and said, “Bob wants to talk to you.” I told her that I didn’t want to talk to him. She left and then came back and said, “Right now.” At this point I was crying and I walked out to the hallway and Bob and Greg Dowds quickly rushed me to Bob’s back office behind the church where no one would be. Bob sat me down and began to try to explain why he had fired this guy. I just looked at him, finally he got frustrated and began to proceed to raise his voice at me telling me how lazy and blah, blah, blah my friend was. After he vented his anger out, he then said, “And if you repeat that, then you can leave to!” I was in shock! I looked over at Greg who stared at the floor and didn’t even make eye contact and I just thought this guy isn’t who I thought he was at all.
He can’t kick me out of the church? Can he? This man isn’t a pastor at all, he just basically told me to hit the door if I repeated what HE just vomited all over me. It was at that instance that I knew there was something wrong Bob. He was now trying to bully me into submission. I felt such a demonic feeling that it made me sick to my stomach. I went home that night and I thought how could this be… the church that I loved so much and raised my kids in and now I’m being bullied around by my pastor? I really couldn’t wrap my mind around it. I felt as if my soul was molested. Greg Dowds called me that night to tell me what a wonderful person I was and how much I did for the children’s ministry. I think it was Bob’s way of doing a little damage control. There was never an apology from Bob.
Many might wonder why I stayed after that. It was very complicated in my mind. My children were born and raised in this church and this was our social life. I also loved the people there like family and I didn’t want to “disturb the church.” So I decided to stay which continued the abuse.
Anyway, I stayed and kept my mouth shut so my children would not have to leave the church they loved. Shortly after that meeting with Bob and Greg, I went into pastor Jim’s office and told him that I never wanted to be left alone with Bob again and if he could please be present if Bob ever needed to talk to me. Jim’s words were something like, “Did he say something to you?” I just shook my head no because I didn’t want to disclose what Bob had said and risk being kicked out of the church. I continued to serve as the Children’s Ministry Director but I had a plan to get out of leadership quietly. I was not going to be a part of a corrupt leadership. The weeks following this harassment I just about had a nervous break down. I tried to hide the pain but it was showing and the people who knew me began to ask if I was ok. I just shook my head “no” but I didn’t say a word. There is nothing worse than seeing the man who is bullying you around with intimidating stares, and a threat hanging over your head, then speak about the love of God from the pulpit. It was the most disturbing thing in the world. Being the type of person who wears my emotions on my sleeve, my face showed the grief I was feeling. I was told that I couldn’t go around looking like that and I needed to basically plaster a smile on. This was even more abuse and every time I pulled up at the church I would just start shaking and crying. I finally went in and told Assistant Pastor Jim that I couldn’t work like this anymore. I had to step out of the ministry.
Just about the time I stepped out of ministry, they hired a new pastor for the youth. He was a breath of fresh air and had a genuine love for God and the youth. He asked me if I would help in the youth department and I told him I would assist but I wouldn’t get back into a position where I was being paid. I didn’t want to be a part of leadership there, I saw the arrogance and mean spirit of Bob firsthand. Well as I helped in the youth, I ended up loving it as well. I was still very gun-shy and tried to keep my distance. I don’t know exactly what happened but Bob let him go too. I venture to say because he wasn’t a yes man. He would speak up when he needed to and that is just not acceptable to Bob. Bob runs the show with an iron fist. He basically told him on a Wednesday night that he was to perform worship and someone else would teach. I was called aside and told that he quit to pursue his music career. My first thought was, “What?” Then I thought, “I know him and he wouldn’t just leave the kids he loves, that’s not like him.” The look on his face that night was hurt beyond measure and I knew something was wrong. It all came back to me again, how they treated my friend a year prior and how Bob bullied me around and I thought I’m not going through this again.
Because this youth pastor was let go so suddenly, we decided to have a going away party for him at my friend Deanna house. We invited the youth group and anyone else who wanted to say good-bye and good luck. After that evening, it was decided that we would start a Bible study there and he could lead it. Anyone was invited to come, even those who didn’t attend Calvary Chapel. My husband and I intended to purchase Deanna’s home and continue to have the study. Pastor Mike called me to ask me how the move was going and I told him fine. He then proceeded to ask me if I was going to continue having that Bible study in my home after I bought the house and I said, “Yes, is that a problem?” His reply was, “Well…not for me.” I knew exactly who had the problem with that, the man who needs to control everything. It was then that I decided to leave. I thought to myself, I will never go to a church that feels they have the authority to tell me I cannot have a Bible study in my home. Prior to that call from Mike, Bob glared at me in the foyer of the church with his arms folded. My husband walked right up to him and said, “Hi Bob how are you this morning?” Later Russ said, “Wow did you see him staring you down?” I said I was aware he was trying to intimidate me into submission again. He continued to pick apart the Bible study in my home until everyone finally quit coming. In my opinion, he is relentless and ruthless.
I first stayed because I didn’t want to remove my children from the church they loved and then I left so Bob could never harm my children spiritually. I had suffered enough under his leadership and in the end my children were indeed effected by all of this….they should have been able to have a wonderful church to attend all their lives, with wonderful memories and now all they have is the memories of a pastor who bullied around their mother. We attend church now but it is very few and far between and my children just sit with us and they don’t get involved and neither do I. My heart and soul are still damaged.
After I left, I began to wonder about a few things…
Why was the name changed from CCV to Immanual Christian Fellowship?
Why did all those good people leave around this time?
What was Glick going to bring forward to the church?
How come I never saw a church budget the entire time I was there? Didn’t even know there was such a thing until after I left and noticed other churches were completely transparent with the financial records.
Where is all the tithe money going exactly?
Why wasn’t it ever made known who the board was? I guess it wouldn’t have mattered anyway if they really weren’t able to make a difference if you had a complaint.
Who actually owns that church property? Who is on the deed?
Then the blogs began to roll and new info was coming out….what happened to the Grenier boys? Paul? It was then I knew I needed to take a stand to give these boys some credibility to their accusations. After experiencing what I had personally, I could see those things happening to them.
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In addition to sharing with me her personal story, Tina also sent me a copy of the letter her family sent to Pastor Bob Grenier saying they would no longer be attending the church. Here it is:
Sent May 11, 2007 at 8:57 am
Dear Pastor Bob,
This email is to inform you that we will no longer be attending Calvary Chapel Visalia for the following reasons:
I believe it is my duty to you, and the wonderful people of Calvary Chapel, to speak the truth in love. I have prayed for you that love and compassion would fill your heart, and I will continue to pray for you and the Body of Christ that God has placed in your care.
I would first like to say that back in 1988, I was saved under your ministry, and my husband shortly afterward. We have raised 4 wonderful children in the Lord, under the teachings and leadership of those at Calvary Chapel. We have also built many deep and loving relationships with the members of the body, as we consider them family. I appreciate all of the wonderful things that you have done for Calvary Chapel and the community as a whole. Your work as a police chaplain, the starting of Reaching Youth, the starting of a Community Prayer, all of which God has blessed, and may more I’m sure.
However over the past 5 or 6 years, while I was in leadership, I have observed some things that have broken my heart. One of which is the lack of love and compassion from you as the senior pastor. In the Bible, 1 Corinthians 13:1 says, “Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.” I will tell you with a sincere heart, that you are one of the best Bible teachers I have heard and because of this I would consider myself to be well grounded. I believe it is God’s will that you represent Him correctly to the Body of Christ, that is in your care, not only in word but actions (with compassion and love). As you know, our actions speak louder than our words. As a senior pastor the love & compassion for his flock should be a given and should be overflowing.
I have watched and seen many in leadership just disappear. I have also observed that the church is run by fear and intimidation. It appears that our church is run like a corporate business, with you as the CEO, rather than a shepherd taking tender care of the flock. I learned very quickly not to do or say anything that might upset you out of fear, not respect. While at a staff meeting you mentioned, “This is not a country club and I know a pastor that fired his whole staff and replaced them.” This type of statement is very offensive, shows no love nor appreciation, and would offend those on a construction site, let alone the house of God. Another thing I guess I just never got over was when I was taken to the back room and where you shared your disgruntled feelings toward someone I hold dear to my heart and then told me if I repeated it to him than I can also leave. That blew me away and needless to say showed me your heart. Just to make you aware, XXXX got saved at Calvary and was a new believer when you placed him in a position of leadership. He loved and respected you and as far a I could see would have done anything for you, even given his life. You in your wisdom, if you weren’t pleased with his service, could have let him go in a way that would have spared his heart. Since he left, he has questioned his faith and really has not found another church family. If things were handled the way Jesus would handle them, then he would still be attending Calvary.
I know that you have a deep relationship with God, but intense stares of disapproval in the foyer because of a Bible study, that by your standard, is not “Calvary ordained”, does not show God’s love. This Bible study is for adults as well as children to hear the Word of God and there have been many people who do not even attend church, come and hear the Word. It wasn’t meant to cause waves, nor was it meant to be Calvary ordained. It was meant to be “God ordained”. It’s just good Christian people getting together for the Word, worship and fellowship. Pastor XXXX has a gift from God as you well know, otherwise you wouldn’t have hired him. Please don’t let your sense of having to be in control, and pride hinder the work of God. Just as a sub note, I lead a Bible study with my parents that is not “Calvary ordained ” and my parents have grown in the Lord and my mom is now saved. I’ve seen a lot of half-truths being spoken to the flock and knew my head was on the chopping block for extending to Pastor XXXX our future home for a Bible study.
In addition, it is apparent to all that visit our facility, that it is beautiful and well maintained. But there is an overemphasis on this, while other ministries suffer financially. The youth and children’s ministry should always be above the facility, since they are the future church. Unfortunately, having worked in the children’s ministry I know they come last. Honestly, we could do without all of the elaborate things we have obtained. I personally would rather sit on a lawn chair in the park and hear the Word preached by a loving pastor, than sit in a cathedral with one who lacks love and compassion. Where did this all go wrong?
I really believe the Lord is grieved. Yes, we should love and respect our pastor as I know the Word says, but you have an obligation to the Lord not to abuse the flock. We are not disposable, we are the Body of Christ. Perhaps you have forgotten this is not your church, it’s God’s and placed in your care. I want it to be known that I love everyone at Calvary but I just can’t stay where I don’t feel the love from you and I refuse to be intimidated and made to feel uneasy when I go to church. If someone asked me why I left, I’ll say I needed a loving and compassionate pastor. You may share this email with anyone you see fit. I have emailed this to Pastor Mike and Pastor Jim so as to keep the record straight. No response is necessary, I have nothing more to say. Except “Love the flock”.
Respectfully,
The Jenkins Family
Spiritual Sounding Board 
Hello David, my son is 22, about to be 23.
Yes I have, The worship is beautiful, the word is strong and contextual.
The fellowship is complimentary and gracious. I have been accepted as a brother.
So it is my new church home. Yes I’m praying for my Pastors.
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Gary,
after reading Norris’ Hello I decided to finally take some time to respond to your rather deep thought-provoking reflections. I read your April 20, 21, and 23 comments probably a dozen times over the last week. . . and appreciate your word of caution and understand we’re dabbling in mere (wondrous) speculation.
As Scripture is silent on so much, our knowledge of these things (this side of eternity) will be partial and incomplete. Scripture tells us as much. Yet as we pursue these mysteries with all our sanctified hearts and minds something happens—at least for me. We begin to perceive mysteries and dimensions of reality we never knew existed. Our faith deepens. Our understanding broadens. There may be no greater joy for me than giving myself over to the pursuit of God’s mysteries and theological conversations like this. And Gary, you’ve helped broaden the bounds of my understanding. Thank you.
Yahweh to Jeremiah: “Call to me and I will answer you. I will tell you great and mysterious things you do not know” (33:3).
. .
Gary writes: I submit that Jesus would not have made petitions that He knew were contrary to the Father’s will. Therefore, the very making of such petition is further evidence of Jesus’ separation from the Father. I submit that the making of requests that were contrary to the Father’s will are evidence that, though Jesus prayed, there was no spiritual connection.
and
Why would Jesus say the same thing twice if he knew he was heard the first time?
As I bend your above comment around in my mind this morning (and I only mean for the highest of compliments by saying this) I’m reminded of those little plastic pictures the size of trading cards that animate when turned and effect a shiny stereoscopic depth when viewed from different angles. You know—those lenticular images that are sometimes buried inside boxes of Apple Jacks? I’m especially noticing this time around how your words shine differently when approached from a fresh perspective.
Personally, I find great encouragement knowing that Jesus prayed the same thing thrice. I never saw this as “evidence of Jesus’ separation from the Father”—but now you have me considering this as a possibility.
Throughout my entire life I’ve been in the habit of praying the same thing over and over again. Requests for the salvation and/or deliverance of loved ones, for instance. So Jesus’ exact repetition of words to the Father a third time [Matt. 26:44] has given me confidence that my own repeated petitions suggest no lack of faith in the offering. In fact, Jesus’ parable of the persistent widow tells me that I should never give up praying faithfully day and night for such things (as peace and justice) until I have it.
As we know that we can pray the same words over and over again and still know that we’ve been heard—the same must stand for Jesus. (?)
The fact that Jesus had a will of his own also encourages me as I pray and relate to God. Our Lord modeled how it’s perfectly good to express to the Father our own perspectives on things, our own working desires—However, just like Christ prayed so must we. “Father, this is my desire, my personal request, nevertheless, over and above my own will—Your will be done.”
When Jesus prayed in the garden of Gethsemane he did not ultimately ask for anything outside the Father’s will. Again, we can express our personal desires—but must encapsulate them with this faithful understanding—“not as I will, but as you will.”
Gary, I think the clinching verse (as you point us to) that provides the best evidence toward a separation in Gethsemane is Matthew 26:38—“My soul is very sorrowful, even to death.”
I believe you’re right in reading “soul” here as speaking primarily of his bodily life—even though I’d otherwise lean toward a more spiritual reading of the word psuche here. The reason for me agreeing with you on a more bodily meaning is for what we read in Hebrews 5:7—“In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.” This verse, although not referring directly to Gethsemane, has an indirect reference to that moment.
Your April 20, 21 and 23 comments are really really good. I’m still reflecting on them. Yes, it may very well have been in Gethsemane that he began to become sin for us. I wish I had more time today to comment more on your reflections. There’s a lot there. It’s deep. And I’ve only been able to pound out here but a fraction of all of what’s going on in my head.
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Norris,,, those years 22, 23—are some of the most difficult years of life. They were for me, as they are for many many others. Difficult years, indeed.
Keeping Andras in my prayers. .
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Norris,
I’m still here, and saddened at the report of the hard stuff your sons (and you and their mother) are dealing with. I would not wish to be their age again. It’s all quited difficult for a parent to watch, but we still love. Will be looking forward to reading your two cents worth, and more than that I expect.
David,
Thank you for your encouraging words. You are seeing things that had not occurred to me. Among other things, I’m looking forward to pursuing your observations regarding Hebrews 5:7. Another piece of the puzzle. For myself, I would say that our little exercise has been most rewarding at the intuitive and, therefore, subjective level. I have some sense of having in some small, small way entered into Jesus’s experience. It’s interesting that the thing that is most rewarding, at least to me, is also the thing that is least susceptible of sharing. I suppose that’s how it is with all knowing of the sort that can flow only from relationship.
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dropping a few more pieces of the mosaic onto the thread (( some tangentially related to Hebrews 5:7 )) :
I have a local friend who read through some of these comments a week or so ago and in an email to me expressed how he found it hard “to fathom that the Father ever left the Son on the way to the cross” and wondered “if the parallel to Abraham and Isaac would give some insight as we have the father who was asked to sacrifice the son, but the father was with him every step of the way.”
Judaism calls the Gen 22 “binding” of Isaac the Aqedah. Surely it was more terribly heart-breaking for Abraham to actively offer his son as a sacrifice then for Isaac to be passively bound and set upon the wood. (( It may be interesting to note how Abraham laid the “wood” of the burnt offering on Isaac—made him carry the etz, which is our Hebrew word for both “wood” and “tree” . . . the cross of X was called a “tree” in the NT, and in the OT we read, “Cursed is anyone who hangs upon a tree.” X became a curse and sin for us that we might be blessed with becoming the righteousness of God ))
Isaac, as he carried the wood to Mount Moriah, said, “My father! Behold the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?” Abraham answered, “God will provide for himself the lamb for burnt offering, my son.”
We know the story: Abraham bound Isaac, and as he raised the knife to slaughter his son the angel of Yahweh called out, “Do not lay your hand on the boy or do anything to him, for now I know that you are a fearer of God, seeing you have not withheld your son, your only son, from me.”
And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, there was a ram caught in a thicket by his horns so he offered it up to Yahweh instead.
In Abraham’s day there was not this individualistic sense of identity that we now have in the modern west. Abraham’s sense of self would have involved a more corporate appreciation of who he was. So much so that when God directed Father Abraham to sacrifice his son—he was being asked (( in a very real sense )) to sacrifice his very own self. As Abraham’s self was so bound up with Isaac I see a parallel here in the words from 2 Cor 5:19—that “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.”
In relation to the Aqedah I’m thinking of the words of Jesus, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it” (Matt 16:24-25).
There’s a play on the word for “seeing” in Gen 22. Abraham was directed to go to the land of Moriah—to the land of “seeing” or “vision.” After Abraham offered the ram in Isaac’s stead he named the place Yahweh Yireh—“the LORD will provide (see to it).” As it is said to this day, “On the mount of the LORD he will be seen.”
Who will be seen? And where is Mount Moriah?
In both the Judaic and Xn traditions Mount Moriah is in Jerusalem where Solomon’s temple was built, at the Jebusite threshing floor where the plague was stopped [see 1 Chron 21:15 and 2 Chron 3:1]. Golgotha, btw, may have been one with Mount Moriah before Solomon et al quarried the mountain stone for the building of the city.
A short distance from Mount Moriah and directly east of the temple is the garden of Gethsemane (( Gat-Sh’manim means “oil press” )) located on the Mount of Olives.
Jesus left the earth from there and will make his return there. “On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward” (Zechariah 14:4).
As X hung on the cross we read in Matthew 28 how after three hours of a darkness Christ cried out with a loud voice, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” And then with a final loud cry wherein he yielded up his spirit—the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom, the earth shook, and the rocks were split.
The rending of the temple curtain signifies the access we now have to the Most Holy One—an access we were denied prior to X dying for our sins. And let us keep in mind that the darkness covering the whole land couldn’t have been a result of an eclipse—for it was a Passover full moon. Strange this darkness! What was that about?
Maybe the splitting of the rocks foreshadows the commencing of the Day of the LORD when Christ will return to the Mount of Olives splitting it open into a wide valley?
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You identify much that I had never considered. Good stuff. I’m wondering, do you think Abraham may point to the fact that Jesus was not the only one Who experienced the pain of separation and loss through His death on the Cross. Father God also experienced separation from (dare I say death to?) His Son.
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Yes, exactly, Gary. .
As spiritual death is defined as a relational separation then certainly the Father also died a spiritual death at His end that day within time and eternity when Jesus took upon himself the judgment for our sins.
Thank You, Father. Thank You, Jesus. Amen.
. ;
{{{ appreciated the conversation }}}
David
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Monax, how could the Father experience Spiritual death when He is eternal? If at any point he experience Spiritual death he ceased to be eternal. Something to ponder. The son died as a man, not as God or else the scripture in jo 10:17 would not be true. Jesus raised Himself up because He never ceased to be God. Hallelujah for that one yours sincerely. Bro. Lee
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I also missed communicating with ya’ll
welcome back to the fold
Bro. Lee
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Bro. Lee,
In our conversation here I’ve defined spiritual death as “relational separation.”
Both God the Father and God the Son are eternal persons. How does a momentary separation in the Godhead make the Father or the Son cease from being eternal?
And Jesus when He died on the cross was both fully God and fully man. At no point did the Son ever cease from being God.
(( am i reading a contradiction in your comment? ))
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David no your not reading a contradiction in my comment. I stated that at no time can God be killed by anyone. Man nor anything else. When Christ Died He died as the perfect sacrifice for man. The perfect man. That is what the Levitical priesthood was about. Jesus is the Eternal God at no time can He die, or He would cease to be the Eternal God. Jesus fully man was separated from God not Jesus fully God ever was separated from God the Father nor God the Holy Ghost. That is what eternal means always existence. That is the reason He states I will raise myself again, because the Father has given Him the power to raise His self again. Psalms 22 Is Jesus the man crying about separation. Just as in Jo 10:29 when Jesus states that the Father is greater than all. Once again He’s speaking as a Man. Fully Man and fully God.
Looking forward to hearing from you soon.
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Fwiw, Bro. Lee, what you seem to be saying is not only considered unorthodox but heretical.
You write, “The son died as a man, not as God. . . . Jesus raised Himself up because He never ceased to be God.”
It’s contradictory to say that Jesus died not as God, yet never ceased to be God.
The eternal, ontological, spiritual, bodily and interpersonal nature of the Godhead is a deep deep mystery. And in no way can we assert a logic (as it seems you are doing) that contradicts his own Word on Himself in Scripture.
One can be eternal and still die—still experience a separation between persons (i.e., spiritual death) and experience a separation of spirit from body (i.e., physical death)—as our Lord Jesus both experienced.
At no time was Jesus ever not God—even when dying upon the cross. To even suggest as much is considered heresy.
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i will respond, however it will take a little time. Love you David, sincerely Bro. Lee
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Hello David, well i want to take the time out to show you what scripture has to say about this issue.
I don’t want to be offensive, however the truth is the truth. I need not defend the bible, God does that with His word and scriptures.
Now you say that God the Son died momentarily and did not cease to be God,
David that is heretical teaching no doubt about it. For the very word Eternal means in the Hebrew: Strongs (6924) qedmah: eternal, everlasting. Scripture references (Deu 33:27, Ps 41:13, 90:2, 106:48, Pro 8:23, Is 40:28, Hab 1:12,).
In the greek it means Strongs (165) Aion: Perpetuity, age, present or future, eternal , without end, scripture references (1Tim 1:17, Heb 9:14, rom1:20, Rom 16:26).
God the Son MUST have all the attributes of God the Father as well as God the Holy Ghost.
God the Father God the Son God the Holy Ghost
Sovereignty
Dan 4:35 Jo 3:31 !Cor 12:11
Eternal
Rev 22:13 Rev 1:8 Heb 9:14
Love
1Jo 4:8 1Jo 3:16 Rom 5:5
Righteousness
Ps 145:17 1Jo 2:1 Heb 10: 14-15
Holy
Ex 15:11 Acts 4:27 Rom 1:4
Just
Rom 3:26 Acts 22:14 1Cor 6:11
Omniscience
Is 46:10 Jo 2:24-25 1Cor 2:10
Omnipotent
Rev 19:6 Jo 10:17-18 Rom 15:13
Omnipresent
Jer23:23-24 Jo:3 13 Ps 139:7-10
veracity
Deu 32:4 1Jo 5:20 Jo 15:26
Immutable
Mal 3:6 Heb 1:12 Ps 102:24-27
these are the attribute they ALL MUST Possess in order to be God. Lacking any one makes them fall short of being God. Now when the Deity of Jesus is under attack, I become concern about your salvation. That’s a ploy of satan to get you to think he could kill God.
Bible says God is a Spirit, (Jo 4:24) how can you kill a spirit (not with weapons of our makings, Man couldn’t make anything to destroy God. Even in scripture bible teaches the spirit of man goes back to the Father. (Ecc 12:7). The spirit never dies. We are talking about human spirit let lone God’s Spirit. So, if you can’t kill a human spirit, how can you kill God’s spirit. Bible teaches death is separation from God. We see that in the garden with Adam and Eve. Never can God be separated from self, they are all God, in essence and attributes. AT NO TIME EVER HAS GOD BEEN SEPARATED FROM GOD AS GOD, but as a man who died on the cross for mankind. Bible teaches us in 2Cor 10:4 the weapon of our warfare is not carnal. Nothing carnal can kill a spirit. No spirit in the bible has ever died nor can you show me that. Willingly or unwillingly. They can however be punished, but not killed (2:4). I have more but I am now tired will talk later Love Norris lee.
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For those of you who have posted above,
Thank you for your courageous words and observations about the darkness of the Calvary Chapel movement. Pray that God will bring this darkness into the light and heal it as only He can. I am one more witness to the fact that abuse, deception, lack of love, bullying, and financial shenanigans exist in Calvary Chapel “churches” other than Visalia. Gossip, character assassination, and cronyism is raised to an art form, and the closer the ties with Costa Mesa, the worse it becomes. I am speaking from a place of familiarity with this system and its leadership. God bless you all for your support of the truth – keep praying that God will soon judge and expose this corruption in His bride.
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Gracie,
I echo your prayers. . also, if you are able to share with us either privately or openly the various abuses, deceptions, lack of love, bullying, strongholds, etc, that you witnessed at Calvary Chapel—we absolutely need your stories (in our arsenal) to help in the war against the dark spirit of authority ruling these Houses of Bondage.
We need both exposure and education. Please contact Julie Anne if you’re willing.
Julie Anne: SpiritualSB @ gmail.com
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Norris Lee, I’m still considering an answer for you. . David
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Norris Lee,
after reading your comments several times I’m left with an imprecise impression of your position. Perhaps the confusion between us is a result of our utilizing different terms and approaches in our understanding and articulation of the spiritual and physical deaths Christ experienced on the cross.
I agree with you—the spirit is eternal and never dies. When I speak of spiritual death
I’m not meaning to suggest the death of spirit, only a relational separation of persons.
This was the spiritual death that Christ experienced, not a ceasing from being Spirit, but a momentary separation of the Father from the Son.
Is this what you’re saying: that Jesus Christ at no time ceased from being God—even when He experienced a forsakenness by the Father on the cross ?
If this is what you’re saying we’re in agreement.
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AT NO TIME EVER HAS GOD BEEN SEPARATED FROM GOD AS GOD,
That’s my point. Jesus has never been separated from God as God they have share perfect unity forever. Now as man, He atoned for mankind with His blood (Lev17:11) He poured His blood before God as an anointed priest, a picture that the old testament portrays. (Heb 9:11-12) says it all this is how Christ redeemed mankind with His blood,” NOT SEPARATION FROM GOD AT ANY TIME” it is because of the BLOOD we have been restored, redeemed and reconciled. We are now justified, sanctified and glorified forever because of the blood (Rom 8:30). He was the perfect Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world (Jo 1:29). We were washed in His blood (Rev 1:5) THE BLOOD, THE BLOOD AND THE BLOOD is the sole reason why we were saved. He had as man enjoyed perfect fellowship with God and when the sin of the world was placed on Him this is when he cried my God my God why have you forsaken me. He had never experience separation up til that point. (Jo 8:29) He always did what the Father ask of Him, so the Father had never left Him alone. When He died he experience abandonment for the first time ever as a man. So that is my point right there. Now that it’s clear I’ll be expecting to hear from Amos, Gary W. and of course you David. Love your Bro. in Christ Norris Lee
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Norris Lee,
Woody Allen is attributed as saying: “Eternity is an awful long time, especially toward the end.”
Even with eternity in our hearts—we are still finite beings attempting to grasp the infinite.
Spurgeon once said: “You don’t need to defend the bible anymore than you need to defend a lion—just open the cage and let it defend itself.”
That said, I find no biblical defense for the theological idea that “[t]he son died as a man, not as God,” as you first stated, for I’m taking your words to mean that you believe Jesus was NOT God when he died in the flesh.
Again, our personal objections I hope are merely misunderstandings over each other’s approach and articulation of the mystery of Christ’s sacrificial death on the Cross.
As I read it, the spiritual death within the Godhead was experienced as some sort of relational separation between God the Son and God the Father. It’s a mystery. I don’t understand it. Yet this I know—as “our iniquities have affected a separation between us and our God, and our sins have caused God to hide his face from us” and as “He became sin for us” I take that to mean that God the Father separated Himself from God the Son while Jesus (( fully God and fully Man )) became sin for us. That is my understanding of spiritual death.
. .
Is it possible to define God in such a way as to confine him? I fear some bible teachers have created for us rigid theological boxes to hold our proper understandings of God. I think they’re guilty sometimes of putting the mystery of the Eternal Nature of the Godhead in a box.
Mike Mason writes, “Implicit in the book [of Job] is the lesson that theology must not try to be any clearer about God than God is about Himself. This is where so much fundamentalist religion goes astray, as it seeks to pin things down that are unpinnable, to systematize truths that by nature are unsystematic. Pharisees theologize the life out of truth. They are so wrapped up in expounding the Word of God that they forget it is the Word of God which expounds us.”
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hey everyone. . i’m wondering if y’all would be willing to keep me in your prayers this week. . i’m tackling a difficult writing project and need the wisdom and inspiration of the Spirit to guide me. . David
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You got it Monax!
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Sincere thanks, Tina. .
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I will continue to pray for you Monax!
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please let me express how comforting it is to know that my dear sisters are holding me up in prayer. . comforting indeed
thank you
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HEY JULIE ANNE
i think i’m comment 430. . are we close to breaking any records in relation to the SSB post with most comments?
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sorry for shouting, ja. .
wanted to get your attention. .
comment #431
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Hey, David – my kid was reading to me. I’ll find out for ya.
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You are right, David – the next highest is 405 on the Homeschooler’s Anonymous thread with RD.
This thread has kind of created a private group where that other thread pretty much stayed on the original topic. (Both are fine with me – just noting the differences.)
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good to be privately #1
thanks for confirming it
should we have a private party or something to celebrate? i’ll bring the steaks and beer.
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Sounds good to me! ;-p
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Yes, I’m back David to share just a little more insight on the matter.
Let me compare some thoughts on the issue and see if it brings clarity.
Do you believe in the Son of Man, as well as the Son of God?
Can you separate some scripture by that thought?
In John’s gospel 10:29 was he speaking as God or Man?
In the gospel of Matthew chapter 24:36 was he speaking as God or the Son of Man?
In Mark’s gospel chapter 10:18 was He speaking as God or the Son of Man?
I could go on and on, however I just want to show you how we can come to the conclusion that Jesus separated the two.
I would love to build on this premise if given a chance.
Sincerely Bro Lee. In Christ.
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Hello and good morning family of Christ.
Love brother Lee.
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Praying for you, Monax!
Can I crash your party? 😉
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Gracie said, “I am one more witness to the fact that abuse, deception, lack of love, bullying, and financial shenanigans exist in Calvary Chapel “churches” other than Visalia. Gossip, character assassination, and cronyism is raised to an art form, and the closer the ties with Costa Mesa, the worse it becomes.”
And I am one more witness agreeing with Gracie and taking it one step further, as our last CC took all of the above to a whole new level and it didn’t have any ties to Costa Mesa, other than the official affiliation.
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i’m typing on the fly here. . need to disappear for awhile. . thanks Katie for your prayers. . and it’s not a party until you crash it!
Norris, Son of Man is a Messianic title (from Daniel) for the Son of God. . gotta run. . all my LOVE
David
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Just checking in waiting on Monax to show up. When you can Monax let me know when to respond.
Love Bro. Lee
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morning, Norris Lee
whatcha got for me?
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Hello David, Well what I would like to do is build on the premise I started with you on. Showing you in scripture the separation of the Son of Man and the Son of God.
It clearly show the two. The Son of Man came with a purpose and plan to fulfill all of God’s righteousness through the law. The Son of man can be said His work is earthly. Well as the Son of God could be said His is Heavenly. Son of man did not know the hour when the Son of God should appear. Son of God knows “EVERTHING”, (Jo 21:17) First point. will be back later.
Bro Lee
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Hello David, I’m sad at your no response, it’s says a lot about you, also this site.
I have personally spent time at Calvary Chapel for the last few months and I see nothing that you say according to this blog. What I have seen is the love that abounds from the Pastoral staff and it parishioner. I will say this on your behalf you have successfully destroyed what God is doing there. Yet that’s not the final word, I witness the resolve that the leadership have and there determination to overcome this obstacle that Satan has put in front of them. You would think there would be bitterness there and contempt. Yet prayer is being offered up for you to come to the knowledge of the truth, and you will, you can believe that. God always prevail in these types of situation, you may think you have a victory only to see the hand of God come smashing in. Read (Ecc 8:11) it says it all. As my Pastor has no ill will against you, neither does I, however i will advice you to repent and turn to the Lord that you may be forgiven for this awful attack on Calvary Chapel.
I say this in love not anger. Venom is of the devil.
So to this blog Tina, Amos, David, Gary W, and the others, stop your assault on the truth and repent, repent, repent, repent. Have forgiveness in your heart (Eph 4:32)
allow God to heal you from this lying attack.
Always your Bro. in Christ.
.
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David 11 days and no response, how sad.
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Norris:
Your statements contradict themselves. How can you say that David has destroyed what is going on at CCV in one sentence and then in the next sentence say that love and resolve abounds in the leadership there? Which one is it? It’s either destroyed or it is not.
Have you spoken with Paul or Alex Grenier? Have you read their story? Have you spoken with Tina or Tim? How many witnesses do you need?
I have a large file of personal accounts from CCV. So these people are all lying?
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Oh, and please do not tell my readers to repent. That is completely inappropriate. My readers are defenders of those who have been harmed by abuse in church.
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Norris,
I removed your last comment. It was very inappropriate. Have you actually read this story – Tina’s story? By saying what you said, you called her a liar. You also have called everyone who shared their CCV stories liars. You will not be allowed to re-victimize here. If you are enjoying your time at CCV, then stay. Most likely, when you least expect it, BG will show his true colors to you. And when he does, then you will know where to find us. And you will be welcome here.
~ja
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Norris Lee,
I didn’t respond because I was waiting for you to draw out your argument. Your last words were “First point. will be back later.” So I assumed you were developing something for me. So I waited.
As far as the Calvary Chapels (including Bob Grenier’s Visalia operation)—consider reading this thread on CalveryChapelAbuse with nearly 1,000 posts detailing the abuses.
Shalom
David
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.
Julie Anne
So – Who wudda thunk it? – Norris Lee, who calls himself a “Pastor.”
Also says – “I am a *grace* teacher,” – APRIL 9, 2013 @ 2:05 PM…
And again – “As I said before I am a teacher of *grace.*” – APRIL 10, 2013 @ 7:59 AM
But? – Does anyone notice much “Grace” in Norris Lee’s words? Comments?
Seems – His agenda is protecting “The Abusive Religious System” – “The Abusers.”
OT – Gen 6:8 – But Noah found “grace” in the eyes of the LORD.
NT – John 1:14 – And the Word was made flesh… full of “grace” and truth.
OT – Grace – is Strongs #2580 – khane – In the KJV it is translated
KJV – grace 38, favour 26, gracious 2, pleasant 1, precious 1, wellfavoured
And means – kindness, favor, beauty, pleasant, precious, well favoured.
NT – Grace – Is Srongs #5485 – charis – In the KJV it is translated
KJV – grace 130, favour 6, thanks 4, thank 4, pleasure 2,
Thayers has – Grace – charis – as…
that which affords joy, pleasure, delight, sweetness, charm, loveliness: grace of speech
What is it with this word “Grace?” – And “Spiritual Abusers?”
Norris might think he is – “a teacher of *grace.*” But – is Norris a “doer of Grace?”
Seems to me, Norris Lee, is another “Pastor” – A “Title” NOT found in the Bible…
Who claims to be “a teacher of *grace.*” – Proving another theory I have…
If a “Pastor,” anyone, has to “tell you” – “I am a *grace* teacher,”
Most likely – They are NOT living examples of Grace.
And will NOT show you much Grace.
Norris Lee is a good example – or is it a bad example?
How about – Norris Lee is a another example of why
I NO longer trust anyone who tells me they are pastor or has the “Title” pastor.
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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Amos – – I missed that “I am a grace teacher.” That word is so misused!
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.
Julie Anne, – “this blog. Tina, Amos, David, Gary W, and the others”
Looks like Norris is leaving – The same way he arrived here at SSB…
Judging and Condemning the commenters at SSB. Go figure – Anyone surprised?
And he is doing the very things he is telling the folks here NOT to do.
Norris is another fine example of a wanna-be “Religious Leader”
Saying one thing and doing another.
And didn’t Jesus call the “Religious Leaders?” of His Day? – “Hypocrites?” 😉
———
First – Norris Lee – in his first comment at SSB – @ APRIL 3, 2013 @ 12:31 PM – says…
“…This is not the venue where these allegations should be broadcasted…”
“… However I will hold judgement for God to sort this out.
May we not assassinate the character of a pastor as if it does not matter…”
Last – Norris Lee – in his last comment – @ JUNE 22, 2013 @ 8:38 PM – says…
“So to this blog Tina, Amos, David, Gary W, and the others,
stop your assault on the truth and repent, repent, repent, repent.
Have forgiveness in your heart (Eph 4:32)
allow God to heal you from this lying attack.
Always your Bro. in Christ.
————
So, Norris, in his “First” comment says..
““…This is not the venue where these allegations should be broadcasted…”
But, Norris, in his “Last” comment broadcasts allegations in this venue against SSB.”
He says – “…stop your assault on the truth and repent, repent, repent, repent.”
“…allow God to heal you from this lying attack.”
So, contrary to what Norris says in his first comment – He willingly, in this venue…
broadcasts an allegation that SSB has an “assault on the truth.” – A “lying attack.”
———-
And again – Norris, in his “First” comment says..
“… However I will hold judgement for God to sort this out.
May we not assassinate the character of a pastor as if it does not matter…”
But, Norris, in his “Last” comment does NOT…
“hold judgement for God to sort this out” with his dis-agreement with SSB.
He has been consistently – Judgeing the comments at SSB as – A “lying attack.”
And, Norris has NO problem attempting, over the last three months – To…
“assassinate the character of the commenters at SSB as if it does not matter…”
————–
So Norris – “I say this in love not anger. Venom is of the devil.”
In the Bible, NOT one of His Disciples took the “Title” – pastor/leader/reverend.
Are you taking the Name of the Lord thy God? Is your “Pastor” taking that Name?
And – Are you both – taking that Name – In Vain?
Ex 20:7
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
In the Bible, this “Title/Position” – pastor/leader/reerend – belongs ONLY – To Jesus.
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Wow – Very, very interesting, indeed, Amos. Thanks for pointing those out.
Norris??? I hope you are reading this and will ponder Amos’ words. You are always welcome to comment, but they will have to pass my moderation first.
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Norris,
As you depart, know that your are loved. It likely seems to you that you have been roughly treated here. Please understand that, in part, it is because we love each other enough to be protective of each other, and you have had a way of saying things that hurt. More importantly, though, it is because we love you enough to hold you accountable when you seem to be taking a self destructive path. My prayer for you is that you will choose your friends carefully. I do not know, but I strongly suspect that a large part of the reason you found yourself in trouble with the law is that you did not choose your friends wisely.
You do not have to prove anything to anybody. You are valuable enough that the eternal Son of God shed His innocent blood for you.
Find your way to the least important place in every room you enter. Volunteer for the most humble and least visible service you can find. If you do, you will be exalted; otherwise you will be humbled. Do not be too quick to put yourself forward as a pastor or as anybody else important. I perceive that this would be a deadly trap for you.
Please know that, though I do not know the full circumstances of your life, I find much in you to admire. Based on just a little you have told us, I perceive that you have overcome great adversity, some of which you do not yet even recognize as having been that big a deal.
When you are ready, please come back. Just understand that we will love you (and each other) enough to hold you accountable–especially if you, without warrant, say things that hurt.
God bless.
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Those are excellent and sincere words you wrote to Norris, Gary W. I agree 100%. Thank you.
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Gary W- You sir, have a gift, or a way to express what I would say if I could find my words. I whole heartily agree with what you wrote. My prayers are with Norris, I suspect he means well, even though what he said in his last few posts seemed to be coming from his inner Pharisee.
I recall seeing glimpses of his heart: his sorrow, his struggle, his vulnerability to share he was abused…
Whew, I remember a time when I was full of zeal for Christ, glossing over how abuse shattered my heart & soul.
I hope for his sake, he doesn’t taste the suffering of spiritual abuse. If, that happens, he will be welcomed & heard here because this is a safe place.
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Gail said: I hope for his sake, he doesn’t taste the suffering of spiritual abuse. If, that happens, he will be welcomed & heard here because this is a safe place.
Gail, these were my thoughts, too. Norris could be in a vulnerable place and I really do not want to see him hurt – – – and we know so many have been hurt there.
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Norris, my friend. As you can see here you are sincerely loved.
I hope you have some good Christian men in your life (they’re actually hard to come by) who you can sharpen irons and work out the issue of life with (we all need at least one good friend like this—again, they’re rare). That said, I’d like to offer you my phone number if you ever want to just talk about anything at all—I’d be honored to give you my ears. You already have my heart.
In Christ,
David
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I know what happened to me at the hands of someone who I loved and respected. So if Norris thinks Im lying it makes no difference to me. We told him to be watchful and Im confident that he will have his own eye opening experience, its just a matter of time. Hopefully it wont steal the love of Christ from him or throw him into a tail spin. Best of luck to you. 🙂
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Human nature is funny. You can warn, warn, warn but most of us learn by experience. NORRIS YOU ARE IN MY PRAYERS BRO. LISTEN TO THE SPIRIT
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You’re so right, Tina. What’s sad is that we’re trying to protect Norris from the inevitable. But he is being deluded and won’t learn from people who have already gone down that difficult path.
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Norris, as I read your last comment I need you to know that the people are good people, I still have friends there. It is not the people who attend there that should concern you. Who is sueing who? It is not what one says its what one does that shows his heart.
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And we have not destroyed anything we have exposed the truth. I hope he is acting in a godly manner now, he should be. He knows the truth and God sees his heart.
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He knows the truth and God sees his heart . . . . yet he’s still suing. That says it all for me. Norris, why are you following a pastor who goes against scripture and sues?
And sues even his own son and former church member? What does that say about Pastor Grenier adhering to God’s word?
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Norris you say repent, repent, repent, from what speeking the truth? You can’t repent from truth.
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Yes, Norris, what am I to repent of? Being a watchman for the LORD?
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.
Was wondering…
Since Norris is concerned about us – Asking us at SSB to repent…
Was wondering if Norris Lee has the courage to restore Bob Grenier – his pastor?
And ask him to “Repent” from taking a believer to court? And forgive?
Now – Wouldn’t that be a notable miracle?
The good news is – It would be “Biblical” to restore “a man be overtaken in a *fault.”
And Norris could show his pastor Gal 6:1…
Gal 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a *fault, (*Taking a believer to court.)
ye which are spiritual, restore such an one
in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself,
lest thou also be tempted.
And then Norris could show Bob Grenier these verses and ask – Why, Bob,
would you – “choose as judges those who count for nothing in the church?”
When The Bible has a better way?
Do NOT go to law in pagan courts.
1 Corinthians 6:1-8 J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
When any of you has a grievance against another,
aren’t you ashamed to bring the matter to be settled
before a pagan court instead of before the church?
Don’t you know that Christians will one day judge the world?
And if you are to judge the world do you consider yourselves
incapable of settling such infinitely smaller matters?
Don’t you also know that we shall judge the very angels themselves—
how much more then matters of this world only!
In any case, if you find you have to judge matters of this world,
why choose as judges those who count for nothing in the church?
I say this deliberately to rouse your sense of shame.
Are you really unable to find among your number one man
with enough sense to decide a dispute between one and another of you,
or must one brother resort to law against another
and that before those who have no faith in Christ!
It is surely obvious that something must be seriously wrong in your church
for you to be having lawsuits at all.
Why not let yourself be wronged or cheated?
For when you go to law against your brother you yourself do him wrong,
for you cheat him of Christian love and forgiveness.
———-
Was wondering if Norris Lee has the courage to at least “TRY” to “restore” his pastor
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What happened Norris, just a couple of months back we were wishing you happy birthday and now you start bible slapping the wounded. Whats up bro? Youcan go where you choose but dont think for one minute you can put a gag on me for speakingof what I personally experienced. Is what I said offencive because it was the truth? Do I wish things were different? Absolutely.
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Norris you just lit my tail end on fire, lol I forgive you 🙂
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I think you mean well, you are just basing your opinion by what you have experienced. Had I not had those experiences, I might sound just like you. When I look at Bob I dont see goodness, I see deception. Its my oppinion based off of my experenice with him.
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I like how you bible slapp us and say always your bro in Christ. Lol Really? That is comical. Like a cherry on top to sweeten the deal. Give me a break. Be real dude. Dont refer to yourself as my brother if you cant be loving and kind to the abused. Just say what you mean, dont coat in Chrisianeese and then slap an I love you at the end.
Better to say it has been my experience, bla, bla, bla and I dont see what your saying then to call someone a lier when you really dont know the truth. And try a little sensitivity, that goes a long way.
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Tina, you’re cracking me up. 🙂
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ok, ja, i hope this isn’t too much. .
but i thought it might sit well with Tina at the moment. .
all this above reminded me of a tweet i came across last month:
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But really lol its the truth right! Just bugs the crap out of me. Its like saying you’re going to hell, but Jesus loves you. Come on!! 😉
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truth
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Exactly Monax, that is what Im saying! Lol
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I think you two have conspired to bring the comment # up because you want this to be the number 1 thread 🙂
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I told Gail months ago, privately, that we were gonna take this thread to the moon!
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I knew it. I just knew it.
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Hey you can thank Brother Lee, he keeps this thread alive. I was all sleeping and everything and he decided to light me on fire! Lol Honestly I forgive his ignorance. He just doesnt know. How can he, he has only been at CCV for a couple of months. I WAS THERE ALMOST 20 YEARS.
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Hey Fellow Saints- Off thread, just wanted you dear ones to know that I have moved to our cottage for the summer, company from weekend just rolled out. We have 20 coming for the fourth. So, I am swamped with entertaining which is a glorious work!
All that to say I haven’t abandoned this blessed place, if I don’t post it just means I am busier than I am in the fall & winter. I love you people, you have supported me even though you are probably unaware.
On a sad note, our precious friend Frank died on Monday. Thankful to Amos for prayers on 23rd psalm where I inserted Frank’s name, and grateful for the wise counsel that many gave me. xo
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So sorry, Gail, to hear of Frank’s passing.
Also happy to know that you’re now at Lake Charlevoix!
Have a most enjoyable and blessed Summer up north!
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Ahh, Gail. Thank you for the update on your family and on Frank. You were so kind to him. Have a wonderful time at the cottage.
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Sorry to hear about Frank too. Enjoy a great 4th with family and friends. My Gods love be yours in abundance.
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Gail
Sorry to hear about Frank’s passing…
And – Happy to hear about Frank’s Passing…
With you for a friend, by his side. 🙂
Oh Lord – That I would be so blessed at my graduation party… 😉
Gail – Have a great, great, time this summer – The Lord Bless you…
And I’m sure Jesus will provide a way for you to be a blessing.
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Everyone,
Thank-You. I appreciate your thoughts & prayers! I love how truth & mercy flow here at SSB. My best to everyone. Monax, if you make it to MI this summer send me a e-mail.
Mercy and truth are met together ; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
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.
Tina – Love the Fire… 😉
Yes…
“What happened Norris, just a couple of months back we were wishing you happy birthday and now you start bible slapping the wounded. Whats up bro?”
“dont think for one minute you can put a gag on me
for speakingof what I personally experienced.”
“I like how you bible slapp us and say always your bro in Christ. Lol Really?
That is comical. Like a cherry on top to sweeten the deal. Give me a break.”
“Dont refer to yourself as my brother if you cant be loving and kind to the abused.”
———-
Tina – Me thinks – Your recent Fire comments, really honest from the heart comments…
Are the real “Cherry on Top” of this post, and thread of comments… 🙂
Thank you Jesus…
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Hello SSB family, I have purposely waited to respond. My bible says “the wrath of man does not produce the righteousness of God” I was upset at the response that was given by most. Surely I was misinterpreted by your blog. Yes I am a grace teacher, however God has other attribute too. One is just. He is a God of Justice. It can’t always be mushy mushy love. He holds us accountable also. I apologize for calling you a liar Tina that’s not my point. I have seen and experience true love from Pastor Bob, He has shown me and others who i have brought to the church an welcoming hand. Not only him also Pastor Mike. His lovely wife has extended her love. Yes I have only been there a short time, yet i’m drawn by the Holy Spirit to stay. I never put my trust in man, yet I will trust the Spirit of God. I will not get into a shouting match with you or anyone else for that matter. I will jus say time will tell. I have no ill feeling toward anyone of ya’ll I just call it as I see it. Yes you and this blog are in my prayer for all sorts of reason. One is because God has giving me a love for ya’lll. Yes monax if you ever want to speak one on one I would love that my number is (559) 636-3683
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excellent, Norris Lee, i wrote down your number and would like to call you sometime this weekend just to chat. thank you.
i’d recommend that JA edit out your phone number so you don’t inadvertently get spammed or harassed in any way.
you can email me privately what may be a good day and time to connect with you:
“DiscerningSpiritualAbuse” AT “gmail.com”
looking forward to hearing your voice
shalom
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I accept your apology. Its all good. You are right in saying time will tell, and I honestly hope your experience is different than mine. Brother Norris do me a favor though, don’t Bible bash. Do you know what I mean? If you wish to connect with me as a person, I have seen scripture twisted and missused. Its not what scripture you use, I could care less. I sat under scripture for 20 years. Show me by a gentle and understanding spirit. You want to pray for me? Great! I WILL NEVER TURN AWAY PRAYER 🙂 BUT WHEN YOU PRAY, PRAY FOR TRUTH TO BE EXPOSED. You do want that right?
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Norris
You write…
“Yes I am a grace teacher…”
Can you explain? – What does – “I am a grace teacher” – mean?
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Norris
And – Do you really think it’s a good idea to call yourself – Teacher?
When Jesus instructed “His Disciples” – NOT to be called – Rabbi/Teacher?
For you have “ONE” teacher? The Christ?
Norris – Here’s Jesus, warning His Disciples about – The scribes and Pharisees.
“The Religious Leaders” of His day.
Mat 23:4-8 NKJV
6 They (The Religious Leaders) love the best places at feasts,
the best seats in the synagogues, (congregation, assembly)
7 greetings in the marketplaces, and to be called by men, ‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’
8 But you, (His Disciples) do NOT be called ‘*Rabbi’; (*Title for Teacher)
for “ONE” is your Teacher, the Christ,
and you are all brethren.
Mat 23:4-8 The Message
Instead of giving you God’s Law as food and drink
by which you can banquet on God,
they (The Religious Leaders) package it in bundles of rules,
loading you down like pack animals.
They seem to take pleasure in watching you stagger under these loads,
and wouldn’t think of lifting a finger to help.
Their lives (The Religious Leaders) are perpetual fashion shows,
embroidered prayer shawls one day and flowery prayers the next.
They (The Religious Leaders) love to sit at the head table at church dinners,
basking in the most prominent positions,
preening in the radiance of public flattery, receiving honorary degrees,
and getting called ‘Doctor’ and ‘Reverend.’
Don’t let people do that to you, put you on a pedestal like that.
You all have a single Teacher, and you are all classmates.
Don’t set people up as experts over your life,
letting them tell you what to do.
Save that authority for God; let him tell you what to do.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Teacher
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
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You have been on my mind all morning Norris. Here is my suggestion to you. Work your way into the inner cicle. If you dont know what that means, you will. Watch and observe. It may take a couple of years, when the honeymoon is over. Dont become financially dependent on him. And know we love you and will be here for you. Who knows you might live next door to me. You could find me if you try, ask Bob where I live. He knows. We can have a BBQ 🙂
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Norris have you ever looked into the eyes of someone who has been spiritually abused? Gaurd your heart. Its satans way of trying to destroy Gods kingdom. Its pretty effective and it can knock you down for years. But what satan doesnt realize is that when you are able to get a footing again you are a heck of a lot tougher and you are able to stand.
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Ephesians 6:13-18
Stand therefore, having taken up the whole armor of God, fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and, as shoes for your feet, having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace. In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one; and take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God, praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all to firmly stand.
http://spiritualauthority.wordpress.com/2013/06/22/who-are-the-children-of-light/
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🙂 right on!
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Hey I heard my first locust of the Summer last evening here in Highland Park Pittsburgh. . I SO LOVE the sound of cicadas—iz an absolute symphony!
The Tour de France begins tomorrow!
Anybody swimming in Lake Charlevoix? If so—how’s the water?
Have a blessed/happy weekend friends. .
David
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Fun, David. I remember the cicadas when we lived in the Philippines. They were so loud.
My daughter and I arrived in Dallas for her volleyball Nationals, so this will be a fun sports weekend. Go team!!!!
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Bump. .Set. .Spike!
You Go Team. .
if you’re able, ja, keep us informed on your Nationals. .
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Sure! Thanks!!
Oh David, I can tell you’re from my generation. Now it’s pass, set, hit – lol. Lots if changes in the volleyball world.
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back in the early 80’s before my freshman year of high school my Grandfather relocated us from Michigan to Pennsylvania and built us a house atop a hill on some old nursery land he referred to as ‘the farm.’ The sunsets there were absolutely stunning. And the landscaping and trees were like the garden of eden. There was no other hillside in that area of PA as gorgeous as ours.
In between a series of 70 foot Norway Spruce trees hedging the hillside I made my sanctuary. It was a huge wooden spool that a cable company left for me (they had built there tower on the hill next to our land.) I set the the spool flat and would sit upon my wooden altar and commune with God from there hidden among the trees. It was heaven.
Also, behind the house I build a volley ball pit. We made good use of it too. Even would put lights in the trees to play by night.
All that to say Volleyball is my game, girl. .
was like this: the opponent serves and I SPIKE then pound my chest like King Kong.
I was a bit cocky back then. .
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Volleyball is a great game. You can play for many years, unlike some other sports. Ok you spike and my daughter will hit. Lol.
First game coming up in 15 min.
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actually i’ll adopt the more comprehensive ‘hit’ language. . it makes sense. . because most of our deadly hits were ‘soft’. .
so what’s at stake here for your daughter. i know this is big. but how big IS IT. does she have scholarship somewhere. ?
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Kayaking yes, swimming not yet, bit too chilly. Throwing rocks galore in lake with 2 year old granddaughter.
J.A. Good luck to team!!
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Yeah, I thought it would be a bit chilly. You know, Gail, my favorite time of year to hit the water of Lake Michigan is somewhere around the last week of August and first week of September—the beaches are then empty (with everyone going back to school and such) and the Lake has had all Hot Summer to heat up. My favorite body of water in the world is Michi Gami.
As a walking baby one hot spring day I wanted to run into the water of Lake Michigan and so my Dad let me. What a shocking surprise that was! B.bb.brrr—FREEZING COLD
Wonderful thing about Michi Gami—sometimes it rages violently with waves crashing upon the beach; other times it is a still as glass—so that you can skip those smooth stones across the water. SKIP. .SKIP. .SKiP. .SKip. .Skip. .skip.skip.skip.plunk
Up your way have you found any nice smooth Petoskey Stones on the beaches? They’re so rare anymore
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